How arrows break bones with Stephen Payne and Dr Ed

[@PersonalBestOutdoors]

You know... I would be willing to bet this video probably doesn't do as well as some of your other videos. But there are plenty of us who appreciate that you out this content out there. Thank you, Troy. There's some really good info here.

[@colbykinney5633]

This was a fantastic idea interviewing Stephen. Man what an interesting conversation...if you do read the comments thanks Stephen this was awesome!

[@OldDerelict]

I want to add my thanks to Stephen. His information is one of the best podcasts I have ever been privileged to participate in. Perhaps it is that I have tried to understand what I saw in my testing outcomes for so long that his insights into bone structures and how the different bones react to different applied forces are so interesting to me. The interaction between bone, broadhead, muscle load on the bones, and differing arrow setups is a fascinating topic for one to ponder. Stephen answered several of my long-standing questions.

[@ScottWConvid19]

I want to thank you so much for your passion to learn and to record all the data you've curated from your experiences. You've changed am part of my life for the better. I've only killed somewhere between 100-150 deer and most of them were with substandard, pre-made "hunting arrows" I bought at an archery pro shop. Sadlymy pass through rate was not very good and I lost about 10 deer. I found Troy's channel about 5 years ago and after a year and a half, I decided to make the change and use your data to build my own. Ever since I've used the heavier, higher F.O.C. tuned arrows, every single deer I've shot has had a complete pass through, no matter what was in the way, even small twigs and foliage that used to redirect my old arrows and the best part is that every deer I've shot has died in less than 10 seconds and hasn't gone far at all. Thank you sir!!! You're an underappreciated legend. I could listen to your talks for hours. Thanks for taking your time to help us.

[@tracychilds3546]

I liked this one lots of good info thank all of y'all for your time I watch this on my TV finally got around to the thumb and I had to comment

[@SylvainFluet]

Hi from up north here in Quebec province . I have learn so much since I follow Ranch Fairy and draggin deer outdoors YT channels. You have completely change the way I hunt and I have up my game by a thousand miles . No more lengthy recovery , they all fall nearby . I'm so confident about my setup and more importantly , I'm consistent . Thank you for your great tutorials and explanations.

[@Prairiehunter]

Thanks to all of you for having this conversation! I learned a lot!!

[@RanchFairy]

@@Prairiehunter stay tuned. more on the way.

[@bradmalone2541]

Fascinating discussion that you can relate to experience with various wounds and blood trails.

[@ronlongwellphoto]

This was an absolutely fascinating conversation! Science for the win! Thanks!

[@ryanburns3921]

Great video, as always. Thanks, Stephen, for coming on and clarifying some things. Can't wait to see what kind of tests Ed and Troy come up with because of it.

[@doylethorn9251]

Very good info from another point of view. Some things now make perfect sense. And others? Lets go test!

[@chrissmith-rj1tw]

Great video guys. None of the haters and naysayers will do this. Keep up the great work.

[@brooksvandevelder447]

Learning and conceptualizing a lot here, thanks gents

[@tolt1776]

This is unbelievably fascinating!

[@bbmas7016]

Troy's question at 53:30 about ribs although unrelated got me thinking about something Adam Greentree said when he was talking with Rogan and Cam Hanes about water buff ribs. He said he's had situations where he's been extracting an arrow out of their rib cages and the amount of resistance he felt was as though a broadhead was being pulled back out or the arrow had pierced a rib. But the arrow had actually snapped off internally and what he was feeling was the way the ribs inter-leave and were actually gripping a 4mm arrow shaft (that had gone in BETWEEN ribs) so tight that he had to muscle it back out. For him that was a reason to shoot 4mm shafts, but it definitely demonstrates how tightly ribs can squeeze down on something trying to pass between them. I imagine it'd really put the brakes on an arrow that doesn't have the momentum to keep driving through.

[@paulvega9893]

Learned about bone hardness from get my hip replaced. It was a very complicated surgery and took over 5 hours due to a previous break and having stem cells put in during the break repair. My wife said my surgeon came out to tell her about the surgery. She said both docs were completely soaked thru their surgery gowns as if they went swimming. He said I had bones like concrete. He told my wife that it took all people in the room to help break my femur and hip to replace parts. So yes bones are like bricks.

[@jtecu1]

Great bone topic conversations!!!

[@AskLeRoy]

Fantastic video

[@lanius9]

Very educational video. Thanks so much!

[@tyanderson4267]

Thanks for the video and bringing on Stephen he did great!

[@rootnpearl]

Great information. Thanks for another great video.

[@EarlScyoc-km2qs]

Another great video guys.

[@donnabonning5587]

super imformation!

[@paulvega9893]

Thanks for great content.

[@judefuselier]

Flat bones are tension members with force going across them, gusset plates. Long bones are flexural and axially loaded members. The shorter the bone/member the greater the shear capacity. Joints are built up to disperse the unit loads into the bone. IMHO.

[@huntersblendcoffee2276]

Nice shirt, Troy!

[@tolt1776]

I agree it's the force of the muscles 25 mins....think of a deboned carcass it moves all over in ways a muscled carcass does not. Same time fat, take off the fat it moves more, same with hide, take off the hide it moves more.

[@ScottWConvid19]

I still don't like the term fairy dust, but I'm buying what your selling because it works and you're just dealing out great info. This talk was awesome

[@waynemorris1999]

Could the rotation of a single bevel allow it to line up with the grain of the bone so that it is then able to split the bone? Like prying with a screwdriver, it doesn’t take as mush force once you have things lined up. Unlike a double bevel that doesn’t rotate so that you just have to get lucky with alignment.

[@RanchFairy]

@@waynemorris1999 I don’t think the grain is that straight - like a board

[@dmouse522]

Sure talked me out of my knee replacement Troy!

[@tolt1776]

Is Perry ostiom the same on young deer vs old deer as humans?

[@ThirdLawPair]

What kind of regressions did Dr. Ed use in the data analysis?

[@ericnewman971]

Physics 101 "Yes, there will be a difference between the two projectiles, even if they apply equal force. Here’s why: Momentum and Penetration: Momentum is calculated by mass × velocity. With equal force applied to both, the lighter projectile will accelerate faster, gaining higher speed, while the heavier one will have more mass behind it. The lighter projectile might penetrate the bone better due to speed, but the heavier one could maintain more energy over the impact duration, causing a deeper or more forceful break. Energy Transfer and Bone Fracture: While both projectiles could break the bone with equal force, the way they transfer energy differs. A heavier projectile with slower speed tends to produce more blunt force, spreading energy over a larger area, potentially resulting in more shattering or blunt trauma. The lighter, faster projectile might create a more focused, clean break due to its sharper energy concentration. Stopping Power and Bone Integrity: For projectiles with equal force but different masses, the bone structure itself might play a role. Lighter, faster projectiles might crack bone cleanly, whereas a slower, heavier projectile could result in splintering or crushing effects. In summary, a heavier projectile may cause a broader or more crushing break, while a lighter one may create a cleaner, more localized fracture, assuming equal force applied to each." "If the goal is to breach or penetrate bone efficiently, a lighter projectile with a higher velocity would generally be more effective. Here’s why: Concentration of Energy: Lighter, faster projectiles concentrate energy into a smaller point of impact, which is ideal for breaching bone. This focused energy is more likely to overcome the bone's structural integrity quickly, creating a clean break. Higher Kinetic Energy: Given that kinetic energy depends on both mass and velocity (𝐾𝐸=1/2𝑚𝑣^2), increasing velocity has a greater impact on energy than increasing mass. The higher energy in a lighter, faster projectile means it can overcome bone resistance more effectively, provided it is structurally capable of withstanding the impact itself. Momentum Transfer and Bone Fracture: While the heavier projectile might bring more force at a slower speed, the lighter projectile’s rapid impact delivers a “shock” effect that can create more immediate fracturing, especially if the bone is rigid or brittle. Therefore, a lighter, faster projectile would typically be better suited for breaching bone due to its ability to deliver a more focused, high-energy impact." Stephen Payne was touching on this when talking about the smaller drill bit. Shooting the same bow and increasing arrow mass will always increase the ability to breach bone. No questions asked. However, you cannot claim that the 650gr is the bone break threshold arrow weight, no matter what. Physics dictates this not to be true.

[@tray22]

I think the 650gr threshold happens for a few reasons. One the spine is stiffer so it wants to continue through rather than the arrow absorbing energy. Another reason for 650gr is that a lot of that weight was forward of center in the head which means a stronger point trying to pop through rather than the blade giving at impact. The 650gr was found in testing over many animals as an average so regardless of the physics behind it there are factors that allow a 650gr to go through better than a 550gr. Your comment is well thought out with clear explanations.

[@Kurtdog63]

I would suspect a tense muscle on a live animal would have greater resistance to penetration than test shots on a dead animal where all the muscles are more relaxed, but your testing showed the opposite? I shot a dead deer, not field dressed, with a very light compound, 25 pound pull, 560 grain arrow, thru the ribs, and the broadhead came out the other side, so, this may not be representative of what might happen with penetration on a live animal...?

[@jasentonguepowersaws4206]

❤

[@YoureSoVane]

I'm visualizing a lot of his surgery talk on my own body and it's making me quite uncomfortable. Especially my femur and hip. Good stuff, though.

[@williamgaines9784]

They used to show some ortho surgeries on PBS. They are very rough with the appendage/structure they are working on. I think it is good that most are done under general anesthesia because just the sound would get one's gut queasy even if one could not feel it.🤢

[@scottyjames2432]

Drills, by the way are single bevel…

[@RanchFairy]

I've had multiple engineers and people who run CNC machines who DO NOT bow hunt, see the 3:1 Tuffhead and say "Yup, that's a drill, perfectly reasonable for what you're doing".

[@jerrypoling3106]

Vote Vote Vote Vote Vote

[@justafan5179]

Hey Troy!!! This man just did an epic comparison video of compound bow versus recurve... the first video he made, used a very light, fast setup, against Armour... and as expected, shattered... fast forward a month and a bunch of youtubers reaching out, and he was sent the most Adult Arrow in existence (1800 grain, dangerous-game, monster) and a premium 100lb compound. The guy is used to 150lb war-bows, so no issues drawing it... and produced an epic video showcasing Adult Arrows penetrating medieval armor. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bYisnnl4p62hbacsi=ZtV9bXzHvx3ON0aM

[@MagnumArrowArchery]

💪🏽🇺🇸🏹

[@chrisruzsa2798]

Everything flexes from leaving the kinetic energy machine to going through the target it’s all flexing and moving. We have enough data to know the truth, we have from medieval history to modern 2024, it wasn’t until carbons and speed was king did we stop passing through deer under 50 yards….. Our tools have improved, our broadheads got better our shafts are the best they have ever been we have compound equipment that doubles or triples it’s power and the efficiency is like nothing we ever seen. Only do under 500 grains fail to kill deer especially with mechanicals. Most of the time. We got thousands of bow hunting shows thousands of bow hunting DVDs thousands of hours of kill shots and out of all these maybe 3 are ever a pass through. I just don’t get it how people can not see the effectiveness or lack there of within this community. Makes no sense to me.