How Can the Catholic Church Claim to Teach Salvation by Faith?

[@Smiley-d4h]

Faith, Hope and Love Amen 🙏

[@BigStack-vg6ku]

Amen sister. I’m discerning the CC. I mod for CALive too.. GBU in your witness. And IP. And SFT. And…lol TY.

[@mil-ns3rc]

FAITH, GRACE LOVE

[@gustavomontemayor4518]

Karlo, beautiful explanation. You the man! So thorough

[@ChristineMcg]

Jesus I trust in you🙏

[@BigStack-vg6ku]

Amen sister. Jesus is the one to keep our eyes, heart and mind on at all times. TY Christine!

[@billlee2194]

Yes, even being Catholic, I too believe we must trust in Jesus. For me, that means, after I am obedient in all Jesus and the Apostles commanded (best summed up for me in the two greatest commandments), as Scripture states, I am to think of myself as a servant of God who has only done what God has commanded of me which is to love God and neighbor. What Carlos' explanation did not directly address is faith is not easy believing as some believe today which is a faith that leans toward the altar call and the belief salvation cannot be lost. David Bercot, an Anabaptist theologian has a video on once saved always saved that gives a helpful account of how all the Reformers, from Luther and Calvin to John Whitfield all rejected easy believism. David said they all taught that, once one is justified, if they do not strive to live a holy life, there is no salvation for them. God bless

[@BigStack-vg6ku]

@@billlee2194 I agree with your assessment. I enjoy my now deceased brothers Theology, Foot of the Cross. He didn’t know about hermeneutical or scriptural theology. He just loved his Lord. I’m discerning the CC. I mod for CALive, IP, etc. I am learning so much I never had time for because of 37 surgeries form too much football. I read and appreciate what you have said. God bless you too brother in Christ!

[@Smiley-d4h]

Amen 🔥✝️🕊🙏

[@debbiegraham5585]

Thank you, Catholic Answers

[@AncientCornelius]

He’s correct about baptism! Perfect explanation

[@veritasmuy2407]

According to Jesus and the Apostle Paul, physical water baptism is NOT required to receive Salvation/baptism of the Holy Spirit -- *SEE Peter's example in Acts 10:44-46 and Acts 11:15-17 where gentiles can receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which is SALVATION, without being water baptized. And then PETER explains that Salvation is by FAITH ALONE in Jesus -- believers have been PURIFIED/cleansed by our simple FAITH in Savior Jesus -- SEE Acts 15:8-11, 1Peter 1:22 (Romans 5:1-2, 1Corinth **6:11**).*

[@davidfabien7220]

Excellent answer

[@BoldlyDream]

Thank you

[@DavidFarrington13]

I find it interesting that you made a video based on my question.

[@BigStack-vg6ku]

Why surprised? I watch CALive as I discern the CC. I appreciate what this apostolate does. God bless.

[@a.ihistory5879]

A lot of people have an erroneous view like yours, so a video is made so if someone asks the question again, we as laymen can just simply send this video. God bless 🙏

[@apostolicapologetics4829]

@DavidFarrington13 Really good question! Did the answer help? I would also add that we make a distinctions between different types of graces. We believe in operative graces, cooperative graces, and sanctifying graces. It is sanctifying grace that we need in our soul in order to be justified. Christ redemption was accomplished 2,000 years ago and now His work needs to be applied to us in time. The effectual cause is the Atonement of Christ. The receptive cause is repentance and faith, the instrumental cause is baptism(when sanctifying grace is poured into our hearts) and after we receive justification/sanctfication we continue in justice through cooperative obedience of faith enabled by continuing operative and cooperative graces. The other sacraments (eucharist) are instruments in communicating increases in sanctfiying graces. Hope that helps. Also, I think it is helpful to point out that God is the primary first mover and we are secondary movers dependant upon God. It is in Him that we live, move, and have our being. This is true both on the natural level and supernatural level. One more thing. We see the sacraments as gifts. Sacraments are outward signs instituted by Christ to give grace. We receive baptism. We receive the Eucharist. We receive anointing of the sick.

[@DavidFarrington13]

@apostolicapologetics4829 I see your points, but in 2068 for example, when it says "... through...," to me that indicates that salvation (justification in this case) happens by the 3 things listed

[@apostolicapologetics4829]

@@DavidFarrington13 God is always the primary cause but He invites us to receive the gift and participate. We can freely neglect and reject the gift but we can preserve the gift because He is at work in us by His ongoing operative grace. True keeping of the q0 commandments is keeping them with faith in grace. It is agape keeping not external list keeping that even an atheist can do. See how there is graced keeping vs. natural keeping?

[@calizz-chalice]

Having faith in Jesus doesn't only mean believing in Him but also believing in everything He and His apostles taught, for example, the fact that the bible teaches that each one is going to be judged according to his works, otherwise it wouldn't have been included in sacred scripture

[@mikaelrosing]

Sure make sense. But they arent the final cause for salvation. or even a cause. Salvation is a heavely gift by God to all man we are saved not saving ourselves.

[@mikaelrosing]

There is alot tho the bible seems to indicate for merits but also indicate against it and purgatory and mortal sin mentioned in the bible aswell. Like its confusing.

[@seanthompson5077]

@@mikaelrosing Protestants, The Bible, and the Catholic Church are all in agreement on salvation. It’s all GRACE.

[@bec928]

@@mikaelrosing He is not saying we save ourselves. He is saying we must believe Jesus died on the cross for us and He took away our sins. No, Eucharist did that and no baptism did that. His sacrifice did and His blood washes away our sins. We must believe this or there is not salvation.

[@st.michaelthearchangel7774]

@mikaelrosing Thing is we have to understand the context of what the original author was writing for. This is why some parts of the Bible regarding faith and works seem contradictory, but in reality are not. I recommend the book “The Father’s Know Best,” by Jimmy Akin. There is a faith and works section that covers just that. It’s really informative.

[@mikerose968]

If you read the Gospels, God the son says it over and over , again and again that we have to believe and comply with his teachings. Christ defines faith as a belief in who he is and what he says. We know there can be no salvation without love because you cant commune with God who is love unless you love others. And love without works becomes ABSOLUTELY USELESS. You can say you love your kids all you want but if you dont do anything good for them then that love is absolutely useless. Therefore faith with out works is useless. If you dont believe and obey the words of christ then you are the House built on the sand.

[@st.michaelthearchangel7774]

Great analogy.

[@ronester1]

@mikerose968 faith produces works, but we are not saved by doing the works 😉

[@mikerose968]

@@ronester1 So saith you. Our religion is called Christianity , not Paulianity. To place anyone’s words on the same level as Christ words is an insult to the truth and God the son . There is no salvation without love of God and neighbor. Christ defines love of God as obedience to his commands and he tells us quite bluntly that if you don’t love your neighbor in deeds you are going to hell. You are playing word games and confusing the truth. You are endangering the welfare of peoples eternal souls. Love is a choice . It is possible to believe in Christ and be indifferent toward others. “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of God but only the one who does the will of My father.”

[@fivenightsatfreddys9369]

@@mikerose968 Your children will not believe that God can take human form and can die

[@fivenightsatfreddys9369]

​@@ronester1So what's the proof you have faith in God??

[@helloDobson3259]

Well stated!

[@Smiley-d4h]

@@helloDobson3259 Amen 🔥✝️🕊🙏

[@BigStack-vg6ku]

@@Smiley-d4h Amen.

[@mikoajczarnecki3388]

Great and helpful explanation.

[@enderwiggen3638]

I hope they heard what you said and understand now. I would say the closing statements you made about how to grow your relationship with God, while giving the example of how you grow your relationship with your wife gives them insight into why good works are needed to show love and grow love towards God.

[@BigStack-vg6ku]

I love the CC teachings on Salvation. I appreciate this apostolate. Lord Jesus Christ please protect and prosper this teaching arm of your church!

[@ChristineMcg]

Amen🙏

[@BigStack-vg6ku]

@ God bless you for your kindness in my discernment of the CC. You are one of the few that makes me want to be Catholic. You are not narrow minded and I appreciate your witness sister. I hope you realize how serious I am..TY.

[@seanthompson5077]

Amen! CC on Salvation: “Sinful man CANNOT save himself. Our justification comes from the GRACE of God and The call to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous nature.”

[@bec928]

You cannot be saved without faith. You can do all the sacraments you want but until you personally confess your sins, and repent there is no salvation.

[@seanthompson5077]

@@bec928There is no church that teaches you can be saved without faith.

[@JohnAlbertRigali]

1 Peter 3:21 regarding baptism for salvation ☝🏻

[@harrisonescobar-yr4cl]

Very well said

[@paulcapaccio9905]

Luther was a madman

[@SaintMichael0825]

An angel in disguise. To divide and conquer. Truly fitting job description of satan

[@grantbartley483]

He was a Catholic monk

[@paulcapaccio9905]

@ so what. Not every religious person is of sound mind. Bad popes, Bad bishops, bad priests doesn’t mean the one true Church is wrong. One bad cop doesn’t mean the force is corrupt . Luther had serious issues not the Church

[@grantbartley483]

@@paulcapaccio9905 No man, indulgences are wicked. I agree L was nasty in some ways but he was right to call the authority of the Church to account

[@paulcapaccio9905]

@ no ! You have no idea what indulgences really are.

[@FranKern-j5s]

Genuine faith is a 3-demensional word - that includes mental assent, charity and actions. "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:14-26)

[@bec928]

Works without faith is nothing. Works will never save your soul.

[@MrAwak3]

@@bec928where does anyone say works justify you? You just butchered what he said. Faith without works is just words. Works follow your faith. You do them because you believe you should because of your faith. No Catholic thinks being “good” justifies you.

[@bec928]

@@MrAwak3 If I did then I was wrong.

[@MrAwak3]

@@bec928 ok. I’m sure you have the best intentions. I used to be a Protestant myself. I had the same misunderstanding about the Catholic Church. Believe me, we read the Bible every Mass and on our own. Every prayer in the Mass is from the Bible. The Eucharist is right out of the Bible. Even the Hail Mary prayer comes from the Bible and quotes the Angel Gabriel. We see you as our brother or sister and want you to come to the fullness of the faith in the Church Christ established the same way you want us to be saved.

[@taradill8618]

Is what you are talking about, in part, the difference between justification (initial justification) and sanctification (continued growth in holiness)?

[@IFEANYIJPM]

Saved by Grace justify by faith, but our faith need good work to show we have faith, and good works is summarise into love of God and our neighbours ( TEN COMMANDMENT)

[@joelauretta4067]

Faith is central to Christianity. The New Testament repeatedly calls people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. There is a definite body of content to be believed, which is part and parcel of our religious activity. At the time of the Reformation, the debate involved the nature of saving faith. What is saving faith? The idea of justification by faith alone suggests to many people a thinly veiled antinomianism that claims people can live any way they like so long as they believe the right things. Yet James wrote in his epistle: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?…Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (2:14, 17). Luther said that the sort of faith that justifies is fides viva, a “living faith,” one that inevitably, necessarily, and immediately yields the fruit of righteousness. Justification is by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. A faith without any yield of righteousness is not true faith. For the Roman Catholic Church, faith plus works equals justification; for antinomians, faith minus works equals justification; for the Protestant Reformers, faith equals justification plus works. In other words, works are the necessary fruit of true faith. Works are not factored into God’s declaration that we are just in His sight; they are not part of the grounds for God’s decision to declare us righteous. What are the constituent elements of saving faith? The Protestant Reformers recognized that biblical faith has three essential aspects: notitia, assensus, and fiducia. Notitia refers to the content of faith, the things we believe. There are certain things we are required to believe about Christ, namely, that He is the Son of God, that He is our Savior, that He has provided an atonement, and so on. Assensus is the conviction that the content of our faith is true. One can know about the Christian faith and yet believe that it is not true. We might have a doubt or two mixed with our faith, but there has to be a certain level of intellectual affirmation and conviction if we are to be saved. Before anyone can really trust in Jesus Christ, he has to believe that Christ indeed is the Savior, that He is who He claimed to be. Genuine faith says that the content, the notitia, is true. Fiducia refers to personal trust and reliance. Knowing and believing the content of the Christian faith is not enough, for even demons can do that (James 2:19). Faith is effectual only if one personally trusts in Christ alone for salvation. It is one thing to give an intellectual assent to a proposition but quite another to place personal trust in it. We can say that we believe in justification by faith alone and yet still think that we are going to get to heaven by our achievements, our works, or our striving. It is easy to get the doctrine of justification by faith into our heads, but it is hard to get it into the bloodstream such that we cling to Christ alone for salvation. There is another element to fiducia besides trust, and that is affection. An unregenerate person will never come to Jesus, because he does not want Jesus. In his mind and heart, he is fundamentally at enmity with the things of God. As long as someone is hostile to Christ, he has no affection for Him. Satan is a case in point. Satan knows the truth, but he hates the truth. He is utterly disinclined to worship God because he has no love for God. We are like that by nature. We are dead in our sin. We walk according to the powers of this world and indulge the lusts of the flesh. Until the Holy Spirit changes us, we have hearts of stone. An unregenerate heart is without affection for Christ; it is both lifeless and loveless. The Holy Spirit changes the disposition of our hearts so that we see the sweetness of Christ and embrace Him. None of us loves Christ perfectly, but we cannot love Him at all unless the Holy Spirit changes the heart of stone and makes it a heart of flesh. If Roman Catholicism believed saved by faith, why would they have a Treasury of merit ?

[@ryanteuscher7996]

Most people just want to hear their explanation explained back to them.

[@devashishmallick5974]

Hi, while praying the rosary why do catholics pray more 'Hail Mary' and only one 'Glory be', why praying to Mary 10 times and praying to God only one?

[@calizz-chalice]

@@devashishmallick5974 firstly the hail Mary isn't just based around Mary but also the Fruit of her womb, Jesus and secondly you cannot honour Mary, without honouring God because her will is so aligned with God's that His very will is hers and same goes for His Spirit, because when we say Mary she says Jesus. Thirdly if one of the commandments says to honour your father and mother, which Jesus did for 30 years of submission to her out of His 33 years, and after giving His mother to John, when He said mother, behold your son, and son behold your mother. And John representing the church means that He gave her as a mother to all Christians. So what's wrong with us catholics imitating Christ, by honouring His mother and ours by praying a couple of hail Mary's in her honour

[@devashishmallick5974]

@@calizz-chalice yes you are right. I also pray to all Saints and Mary and Angels to pray to God for me, I know it is biblical but my doubt is why to pray Hail Mary 10 times in rosary and 'Glory be' once after every 10th Hail Mary. "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" here my doubt is why do we pray to Mary 10 rosary beads and ask to pray for us every 10 beads, I think it should be opposite, we should pray to God 10beads and after that pray Hail Mary.

[@KyrieEleisonMaranatha]

The hail Mary prayer is merely repeating Luke 1:28 and then asking Mary to pray for us. We are not praying to her in the form of latreuo. The type of prayer we give is petition, we are petitioning her to pray for us.

[@devashishmallick5974]

@@KyrieEleisonMaranatha yes you are right. I also pray to all Saints and Mary and Angels to pray to God for me, I know it is biblical but my doubt is why to pray Hail Mary 10 times in rosary and 'Glory be' once after every 10th Hail Mary. "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" here my doubt is why do we pray to Mary 10 rosary beads and ask to pray for us every 10 beads, I think it should be opposite, we should pray to God 10beads and after that pray Hail Mary.

[@calizz-chalice]

@@devashishmallick5974 I recommend you go read saint Louis the Montfort's book true devotion to Mary where he fully explains why devotion to Mother Mary is so important and that there's no such thing as honouring Mary more than we do the three Persons of the Most Holy Trinity, because all that honour goes to God. And by the way I also had that problem but after reading true devotion to Mary all my doubts disappeared. And while your at it try to learn more about the 33 day consecration to Jesus through Mary, I highly recommend it. Peace, may our Lord bless you and our Lady keep you.

[@grantbartley483]

I'm a Protestant. The NT word for faith, 'pistis', means trusting God in Christ in the sort of way that a soldier would trust his commander. That implies seeking to follow his commands. So the Biblical word 'faith' implies works, although it is the faith that saves, not the works. Bringing James in, we can also say that works are what makes the faith alive, and so helps continue someone in that faith, remembering that it is those who believe to the end who are saved.

[@AndrewLane-pm2ro]

To say, as you do, that "it is the faith that saves, not the works" is, firstly, a moot point - Scripture teaches that if a believer (ie, someone with faith) disobeys God's commandments, it can result in eternal damnation (Gal 5:19-21, 1Cor 6:9-10, Eph 5:5-6, 1Peter 1:14-17, John 3:36, 1 Corinthians 13:2, James 2:26, Phil 2:12, Matt 7:21-23). What's to be gained by claiming that works don't save when works can mean the difference between going to Heaven or ending up in Hell? Secondly, to say, "it is the faith that saves, not the works" is to say a man is justified by faith alone, which is a blatant denial of Scripture - James 2:24 says a man is "NOT justified by faith alone".

[@grantbartley483]

@@AndrewLane-pm2ro I think it makes a difference when the believer is not in a position to perform good works (cf thief on the cross). But the main point that Paul makes is the comparison with Abraham who was credited with righteousness without works. I think it is better to say that sincere faith is demonstrated by works. But I'm not stuck on the language: faith accompanied by works is okay, if somewhat ambiguous.

[@AndrewLane-pm2ro]

@grantbartley483 “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Romans 4:1‭-‬3) But that’s not the end of the story - God tested Abraham's faith (Gen 22:1) by commanding him to sacrifice his son, Isaac. As James 2:21 says, Abraham was "justified by works" when he obeyed God. In the same way, God tests the faith of all believers, whose faith is justified by striving to keep God's commandments. Hence, the "saints" are described as "those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Rev 14:12, 12:17).

[@grantbartley483]

@@AndrewLane-pm2ro I'm not sure our interpretations differ that much except that I say works are a result of salvation and you say they're some part of the cause. But as you yourself asked, what difference would the difference make?

[@AndrewLane-pm2ro]

@grantbartley483 "works are a result of salvation"? I can't make sense of that. If you've already (somehow) attained salvation, works become irrelevant - you can lead a life of sin and it won't affect your salvation. Again, you seem to be claiming that you're justified by faith alone, which is unbiblical (in which case, it's little wonder that the doctrine of salvation thru faith alone was condemned as a heresy by the Council of Trent).

[@wonderingpilgrim]

Sooo......We can do nothing to earn our initial salvation, but then we have to work really hard to keep it?

[@DanyTV79]

If it's just your own strength, it's hard, if you depend on grace given by the Holy Spirit it's less hard and will help you a lot with peace on your struggles.

[@felipeschmoellerSCJ]

Yes. 1Cor 10:12-13. It doesnt make sense you recieve everything. Jesus will condemn those who did nothing and He explicitly says this, in the New and Old testament.

[@seanthompson5077]

Salvation is humanly impossible. Living a Christian life is humanly impossible. It’s all grace. Can only happen with the Holy Spirit.

[@hamidrabiipour9707]

Our initial salvation was granted by shedding of his blood. We must certainly obey his two commandments, to love the Lord & to love our neighbor. Not so very hard to do if focused, and God will take care of the rest. Peace

[@CONDACOCLIPS]

The Grace of the HS wells up over your short lifetime to eternal life....

[@ClergetMusic]

Fidelity comes from the word fide. Fidelity implies a duty, loyalty. Not just simple belief.

[@TheCatholicNerd]

See this is the problem with sola fide. I mean you read St. Paul and you can come away with that understanding if you're reading it in isolation, look at it in the greater context... But when young man asked Jesus what he needed to do to be saved He was told to observe the commandments. Peter tells people to repent and be baptized. I don't think you can look at one of these figures and come up with a two-word phrase on how you get salvation. You have to take the whole of scripture. Yeah, Faith is the starting point but you have to live in the Lord by following the commandments and receiving the sacraments. And when we fail to follow the commands, we need to repent and be forgiven.

[@robertnieten7259]

The catholics and the protestants' both have incorrect plans of salvation. The noted writer Tozier, a protestant himself, said about protestantism, " In our zeal to escape the saved by works of the catholics we have committed the opposite error of faith without obedience." The plan of salvation has always been Acts 2:38. Apostolic pentecostals and pentecostals as a whole have been considered a cult by mainline Christianity. The reason for this is that their teaching on how to be saved is " the narrow way that few find"( Matt.7:14). The protestant reformers moved the plan of salvation from the second book of Acts to Romans ch. 10. Not realizing that each book of Pauls' writings begin with the words,: ..to the saints of.." which means that he is writing to already saved believers. How else could they be already saved if not by following Acts 2:38 ?

[@JanGavlas]

I do not understand your point about Catholic. We have Acts 2:38 in the Church.

[@williamgrenke4758]

Faith brings sanctification. Sanctification is life. Good works are the food that keeps us alive. Food cannot bring a dead man to life, just as works cannot save us. Without food we die, so without good works (or with bad works/sin which is poison) our soul dies.

[@LL-bl8hd]

Please help me! The devil is trying to tell me that he accepts me just as I am but God will only accept me if I do all these things that I keep failing at and he's showing me all these Bible verses that say what kinds of people won't be allowed into heaven! 😫😰😰

[@josephlattouf8861]

Faith and faithfulness. We're called to be desciples and Christ endorsed water baptism by getting baptised himself and the moment he does both the spirit and the words of God instantly appeared. All three confirmed and endorsed at once water baptism. In fact shortly after scripture has Jesus and his desciples were performing water baptisms.

[@BensWorkshop]

Or as the Bible puts it: We have been saved, are being saved and are working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

[@johnchrysostom330]

In the synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, every time judgment day is mentioned, it always require works and faith is not mentioned. And Protestant preachers avoid these verses.

[@CONDACOCLIPS]

Yes, true....they do

[@noahaustin4954]

See what’s confusing about your answer is that you said “baptism is the instrument by which faith is infused into an individual”. The Scripture shows time and time again that individuals respond in faith and part of that response is obedience through baptism. I do not know of a moment in scripture where there is not faith before baptism.

[@Jesusistheonlyway549]

Catholics believe in infant baptism so it makes sense to them.

[@ChrisSadowski-pp1np]

Were sons of God through faith John 1:12.

[@Shevock]

I am saved by Grace. As a Catholic Christian I don't worry or talk about Justification as much as Protestants do. But the covenant is a familial relationship. If I find myself in a low point with my wife, such as happens, as a Catholic I don't get divorced. Jesus told us not to. Rather I work on that relationship. Same with my familial relationship with God. As for baptism saving, you can't be a Bible believing Christian and think it doesn't. Read your Bible! You have to understand it in some way, and theology gives us a way, but you need more so to accept the Bible, which says clearly baptism saves.

[@ChristeEleison7]

One problem with people who are not Catholic reading the Catechism is that they don’t submit themselves to God

[@mikemcnamara3777]

Haven’t not don’t

[@rexlion4510]

CCC 2068, "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments." The implication of 2068 is that there are 3 necessary prerequisites for salvation, which means that when a Catholic says "we believe in salvation through faith," he's being disingenuous. The Catholic believes in a salvation through faith + baptism + observance of commandments. IOW, if the Catholic says that we are saved through faith, he is implying that he agrees with the proposition that faith _is enough_ to save a person, when in reality he is bearing false witness concerning his true beliefs. The concept of "initial justification" is an artificial theological construct found nowhere in the Bible, and setting "initial justification" as a separate state from "salvation" or "final justification" has no support in Scripture. Romans 3:10-5:19 contains the most detailed Apostolic teaching on the subject of the Christian's justification/righteousness, and it never says that our justification is merely an "initial" dose, or that it is anything less than _full and complete._ After all, it is only by God's grace that we can be justified, and grace (by definition) is a gift... an undeserved, un-earnable, freely-given, no-strings-attached gift. Paul explains that the one who is justified through faith apart from works has been restored to peace with God, and he draws _an equivalence_ between justification and eternal life. What should 'clue in' everyone to the falsity of Catholic doctrine is their perversion of the truth taught in Scripture that we are justified by God's gift of grace through faith; the church of Rome nonetheless teaches that the Catholic is justified _through baptism._ Anyone with an eighth-grade-level reading ability should be able to see that nowhere in this seminal teaching on justification does it say that one can be justified through baptism. But the Roman Catholic doctrinal train wreck doesn't stop there! CCC 2010, "...Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life." CCC 2027, "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods." RC doctrine also specifies that the Catholic can merit the graces he needs for eternal life _for himself._ This is heresy! Of course, the writers included a "technical loophole" for themselves by mentioning the moving of the Holy Spirit. But the base premise that a human can _merit grace for salvation_ is so totally false and unScriptural, it cannot be salvaged by the mere mention that God is actually involved at working through the person. If our works are the work of the Holy Spirit, then the CCC should say so and be done! None of this "we can merit for ourselves" should ever have been stated.

[@nickw9766]

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. - John 3:5 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, - 1 Peter 3:21 They say baptism doesn’t save you. The virtue of faith comes to us through baptism. That’s how it should be.

[@KyrieEleisonMaranatha]

Do you think you can murder people every day all day and still get into heaven? Can we sleep with our neighbors wife and even though we have faith we're going to heaven? Can we worship false gods and still be saved and going to heaven?

[@rexlion4510]

@@KyrieEleisonMaranatha "Do you think you can murder people every day all day and still get into heaven?" No born-again Christian could "murder people every day all day," because the Holy Spirit indwelling him would be producing love for others in that person's inner being, and he would feel too guilty and convicted about such behavior. So, my answer is no, you can't murder people all day every day and get into heaven, because a person who does that is not spiritually regenerated. "Can we sleep with our neighbors wife and even though we have faith we're going to heaven?" Yes, if the person is spiritually regenerated, he does not fall out of faith automatically each time he sins. God does not withdraw saving grace every time we stumble in sin, even a serious sin like adultery. Rom. 11:29 says, "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." The whole purpose for Jesus' propitiatory death on the cross was to redeem sinners who could not redeem themselves (they could not meet God's standard of perfection because they still sin). However, if this person persists in committing adultery, he is hardening himself against the Holy Spirit's conviction that he is sinning; eventually he may sear his conscience to the point where he will apostasize from faith in Christ and will throw away his salvation. At that point there is no further chance of repentance (Heb. 6:4-6). I hope that helps. Peace.

[@KyrieEleisonMaranatha]

@rexlion4510 so you don't agree with Martin Luther? No sin will separate us from the Lamb, 👉🏻 *even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day* 👈🏻 (cited in Hendrix, Martin Luther, 121-122). Can we commit 👆🏻 fornication and murder a thousand times a day? Yes or no?

[@rexlion4510]

@@KyrieEleisonMaranatha In that statement, Martin Luther was making a hyperbolic statement. He was exaggerating for effect. You do not do well when you quote it as evidence of anything significant. No, we couldn't literally do that, because the weight of the Holy Spirit's conviction upon our consciences would not allow us to do that. But consider the fact that you quite likely commit multiple sins of omission every day, for you fail to love God "with all your being" every waking moment of every day; you get busy and you don't think about God, you love yourself, you love what you're doing at the moment. You also fail to love your neighbor as yourself every moment of every day: you think ill of someone whom you don't like, or you feel a pang of envy at what someone else can afford but you cannot, or you get angry at the dummy who cut you off while driving. You and I are so far below God's high bar, we would never make it into heaven were it not for the blood Jesus shed on Calvary to redeem us from _every single one of our sins._ Like Paul wrote in Romans 7, Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. What was Paul's conclusion to this problem? Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. Paul said that even though he couldn't keep himself from sinning, "Thanks be to God" because He no longer condemns us for our failures if we are trusting in Christ and we therefore have the indwelling Holy Spirit leading us toward His plans and purposes. Each of us follows the Holy Spirit with a different degree of success than the next person, but because our love is for God our heart's desire is to follow Him.

[@shinta9377]

We have faith that water can help us to get rid of our thirst. However, without drinking it, our thirst will still be there. That's a simple way to explain it to Protestants. If we only have faith in Jesus without doing what He commanded, there will be no salvation.

[@steveempire4625]

For Jesus, the good done to every human being, regardless of the ties of blood or religion, is the single criterion of judgment. -Infinite Dignity So, it appears salvation by faith is not current Vatican policy but rather salvation by works alone.

[@wjm5972]

paragraph 1996 of the catechismstate that justification is from the grace of god

[@seanthompson5077]

Amen! Catechism on Justification: “Sinful man CANNOT save himself. Our justification comes from the GRACE of God and the call to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous nature. Justification is the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ.”

[@bec928]

catechism paragraph 196 is not the Bible. It is not the Words of Jesus.

[@seanthompson5077]

@@bec928soooo, you only read the Bible, and don’t listen to preachers, or pastors, or leaders of the church teach on scripture?

[@bec928]

@@seanthompson5077 Sure I listen to my pastor. But they teach and I check what they have said in my Bible. Their word is not final, the Bible is.

[@wjm5972]

@@bec928 but justification by grace is in the bible

[@paulgross3067]

No man, according to the word of God has kept the law if you’re wrong in one point you had broken the whole yard so we know the 10 Commandments has never seen any man

[@louisvega-oe2sc]

Abraham beleived God and it was counted to him as rightiousness: he was justified by, faith and not by works, Roman's 4:1-5:

[@KyrieEleisonMaranatha]

James 2:20-24 says otherwise.

[@louisvega-oe2sc]

@KyrieEleisonMaranatha there's a reason for everything, even for James 2:20-24: you need to, reread romans 4:2:6: the hardest thing to do is to love, which requires more works than one can imagine, so we need to love without condition, like a child, which works not by works, but by love! (Obediance) That's the kind of works that romans 4 and Ephesians 2:8-9 mean! What can one give by works, but to surrender his life like Jesus did, in obediance to his father, without question, as a sacrafice for the many, without doubt, but with the love that only a son that loves his father, and his neighbor would do for them without doubt, but acknowledgment and faith, for the task performed! just as all the prophets apostles, and even the thief on the cross! Can not that kind of blind faith be the kind of works based on obediance and not of works, what God reqires? Does God need our works, or our our obediance? Do we need to give back with our works, or our faith in what he did? Should we expect, that he expects our sacrafices (works) other than our obediance? "LOVE!" We need to obey more than to work at working for that wich God did on the cross, with blind faith, which is blind love! Hebrews 11:

[@doriesse824]

This is the whole problem of why there are so many different beliefs and churches within Christianity. You can 'prove' any doctrine with scripture, even when it conflicts with another doctrine. You just avoid that other doctrine.

[@louisvega-oe2sc]

@doriesse824 so, where does Gods Holy Spirit fall in to this category? There are zero denominations in the kingdom of God, just one grace, one faith, and one savior! Acts 4:12!

[@ji8044]

Jesus most definitely did not teach salvation by faith alone because Jews don't believe in that and Jesus was a very conservative Jew. "As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good-except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[d]” 20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.” 21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

[@BigStack-vg6ku]

🛐For your discernment. Hard to judge the CC until you know the teachings. Not from what someone told you. I’m Not Catholic, so you can’t put it off on that issue. God bless.

[@ji8044]

@@BigStack-vg6ku 12 years of a very fine Catholic education here. What can I help you with?

[@RobertWCornell]

not sure how to word this but will try, baptized as a baby but dont come to faith until my later years, do I need to be baptized again?

[@catholiccom]

Hey Robert, the short answer is no, you do not need to be baptized again. A longer answer can be found here: www.catholic.com/qa/why-cant-i-be-re-baptized-as-a-catholic

[@seanthompson5077]

Absolutely not.

[@rubemartur8239]

Remember: works of spirit already happens when you obbey the commandments and dont sin. Its not work of flesh by "lets do solidarity for the sake of feeling well around salvation, while not confessing those mortal sins" Unborn children that die dont sin, yet they dont believe in Jesus... yeah, the baptism is not "optional" but necessary, but who knows, at Second Coming, Jesus could baptize every children that didnt had baptism and died prematurely, as everyone will be ressurected with body, some to Eternal Damnation, some to Eternal Life.. Limbo would cease to exist with Purgatory, right? As they would lose their role with the New Jerusalem. Someone have thoughts around children? there is nothing at catechism, even Pio X's catechism doesnt mention Limbo.

[@paulgross3067]

It’s a spiritual baptism into his death. You’re not saved by watered. Baptism is what I’m trying to say.

[@Islandalex1]

saved from what?

[@ChristoJP]

Die vissers maak rooi vlaggies aan die nette vas voordat hulle dit in die water gooi.

[@ConfusedMountainLandscap-dn4bz]

Paul truncated the 550 laws given to us by Almighty God to Moses and the Prophets down to 4 laws which makes Paul a false prophet. There are numerous passages in which Paul teachings oppose Jesus. Jesus is the gold standard not Paul???

[@RobertWCornell]

can we really keep the commandants

[@seanthompson5077]

Getting saved is humanly impossible. Keeping the commandments is also humanly impossible. These ARE possible with the Holy Spirit. Salvation is grace. Even our good works are grace (Rev 19).

[@rexlion4510]

@@seanthompson5077 I agree, keeping the commandments is humanly impossible, and practically no Christian manages to keep all the commandments. yet the CCC says, "The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them..." (2068). So the Catholic Church lays a burden on the layperson that the layperson will not be able to keep, plain and simple.

[@JanGavlas]

@@rexlion4510 "So the Catholic Church lays a burden on the layperson that the layperson will not be able to keep". That is not true. Jesus himself said that so Trent can not say anything else. It is God´s teaching. You can stay in Jesus´s love only when you keep his commandments. Or do you not like Jesus´s words?

[@rexlion4510]

@@JanGavlas You wrote: "You can stay in Jesus´s love only when you keep his commandments. Or do you not like Jesus´s words?" That is not exactly what Jesus said. You interpret and distort Jesus' words to fit your beliefs. Besides, you do not keep His commandments. One of the fundamental truths of Christianity is that we are hopelessly lost in sin apart from God's grace. You and I disobey commandments multiple times each day. Consider whether you succeed in loving God with ALL you being, every moment of every day? Do you always love your "neighbor" every moment, even when you envy your neighbor's nicer house or car, or when you notice how desirable your "neighbor" looks, or when your "neighbor" cuts you off in traffic? You cannot deny that you and I are steeped in sin. 1Jn 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." This is why it is false to say, "You can stay in Jesus´s love only when you keep his commandments." Because if that were true, then you are not in Jesus' love at all, because you fail to keep ALL of His commandments, every single day. To depend on our 'performance' of keeping the commandments is to depend on the works of the law (the commandments are a part of the law, are they not?), and if we depend on the keeping of our commandments to keep us in God's love, we have placed ourselves back under the curse of the law (the curse of sin which Jesus died to deliver us from). Thus, we say that we are sinners saved only by the grace of God, which He bestows through faith in Him (John 3:14-18; John 6:28-29,35-40,47; Mark 16:16; Romans 10:8-14; Gal. 3:1-14; Eph. 2:8-10). Depending on your ability to keep His commandments places you in a works-based religion that will send you to hell for failure to keep ALL of the laws (James 2:10), whereas I am standing in faith in my Lord Jesus who sacrificed Himself on the cross to make the full, finished propitiation for my redemption from all of my sins. Jas 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it." Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Peace.

[@paulgross3067]

The 10 Commandments is the law of God and the Bible is clear. The law has never saved any man the law condemn a man so what is the law always put there to condemn you to the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus

[@normmcinnis4102]

observance of the 'commandments' is old testament 'works'.

[@DRWH044]

So, you're saying we don't have to obey the commandments? We can disobey God's commandments and still be saved?

[@normmcinnis4102]

@@DRWH044 Missing the whole point of the New Testament.

[@DRWH044]

@@normmcinnis4102 am I? So why don't you answer the questions?

[@FinishedGameFanatic]

​@normmcinnis4102 Jesus didn't abolish the 10 commandments. So yes, we are still bound by them. If you love someone you will do what they ask of you. So that you can truly say with the Psalmist: How I love your laws oh God...

[@DRWH044]

@darrellperez1029 thanks for pointing that out. Let's see if they actually want to voice that belief or think they have reasonable arguments for it.

[@paulgross3067]

You’re saved by Grace through Faith in Christ that’s it. You people do not believe this and you are considered unbelievers.

[@veritasmuy2407]

You are just twisting Scripture -- James 2 is not talking about Eternal Life/Salvation. No Roman Catholic believes Jesus in John 3:15-18 -- that Eternal Life is by FAITH -- all RCs believe that FAITH is required, but then YOU MUST ADD your OWN "good works + confessing every sin to a Roman priest + physical water baptism + drinking sacrificed blood + penance + unspecified amount of time in purgatory" -- *ALL of which contradicts Jesus/Apostles/NT.*

[@EddyRobichaud]

Gods grace saves and nothing else no works, adding works to Gods is insulting Gods perfect sacrifice

[@atgred]

Saved by Faith: yes Saved by Faith “ALONE”: no

[@nicholasisaiah53john316]

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[@BoldlyDream]

Wow 😮 and from Romans, thank you for sharing

[@BoldlyDream]

Amen 🙏 mercy

[@fantasia55]

Good Work or Work of the Law ??

[@MrAwak3]

Dont cherry pick the Bible for what confirms your own interpretations. You put up two verses and ignore James 2:26. You need to read the Bible in its totality. If you have faith, you will get baptized. You will do good works because you believe. No Catholic believes your saved because of works. We know our works are like filthy rags in the sight of God. We believe you should still strive to be good because of our faith.

[@BoldlyDream]

@ the Bible states for us to follow the laws of the land, those that don’t conflict with the ten commandments, is what I remember.

[@paulgross3067]

You cannot mix works or wall and grace that’s why Catholics are wrong they mix lol and grace

[@pelomocho8567]

voldemort

[@soteriology400]

The Roman Catholic Church baptizes without faith. Faith comes by hearing, and those who gladly received the word were baptized.

[@atgred]

Yes!! FOR ADULTS, but Peter SAYS the promises of baptism are ALSO FOR OUR CHILDREN!! “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, *and to your children,* (present tense) and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” ‭‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭38‬-‭39‬

[@KyrieEleisonMaranatha]

A baby is baptized under parental faith, just as circumcision was done under parental faith. A baby could not choose to be circumcised. Baptism is the new circumcision Colossians 2:11-12..

[@noej1003]

@@KyrieEleisonMaranatha Can babies make a decision?

[@KyrieEleisonMaranatha]

@@noej1003 could a baby decide to be circumcised?

[@noej1003]

@@KyrieEleisonMaranatha Galatians 5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, but faith working through love".

[@bec928]

No one is saved by a church. It cannot happen and has never happened. Without faith there is no salvation.

[@maryschade1906]

That is an argument Protestants Agnostics and Atheists use. We are called to have fellowship, as laity we do need to see if a group of people (the Church) function with Sound Doctrine.

[@bec928]

@@maryschade1906 This is not about laity or fellowship. This is about making Jesus your Savior. If you do not do this and live for Hin then you are not going to heaven.

[@maryschade1906]

@bcalvert321 actually this discussion is Salvation Faith and Works. My apologies if my explanation upset you.

[@paulcapaccio9905]

One needs Faith obviously but faith alone is not enough

[@bec928]

@@paulcapaccio9905Enough for what, stepping through church hoops. There is nothing else. Your church rarely if ever talks about faith in Jesus for salvation. Ir is always talking about the Eucharist and baptism. But they will not save your soul until you confess your sins, repent of them, and make Jesus Lord and Savior. That means living for Him and not any church or saint.