How Comic Book Storytelling is Changing Movies

[@camerongrow6426]

I remember watching Thor Ragnarok and seeing the scene with (Minor spoilers but it was in an end credit scene, sorry anyway) Dr. Strange and thinking: this is the kind of character cameos only seen in comic books. Often in comics a character will have a problem and simply give another character a call or ask for their help. That other character because there in the same city and why wouldn't they. Its pretty cool that we've reached a point where movies just do that without batting an eye.

[@tylermane77]

Yup. And it didn't work. Because comics aren't films and films aren't comics.

[@tylermane77]

MMmmm, never said that.

[@mattalex2113]

Mr Maws I thought it worked. *shrug*

[@KnightRaymund]

Mr Maws it did work

[@geohiekim8705]

Mr Maws even in comics, it rarely 'works' because then that wouldn't be satisfying, the important part is the fact that they meet to talk.

[@AlexLove631]

Ongoing stories is what makes movies like Logan so special. It's why you get emotional when Logan tells Laura "bad shit happens to the people I care about" because you immediately picture all the X-Men. Or when Charles mentions the final battle in X1 at the Statue of Liberty and you realize how far we've come. As for DC, Geoff Johns ain't as in charge as he should be. People praise Fiege (rightfully so), but don't realize that he's so good because the CEO of Disney lets him do his thing. Disney trusts their creators. WB keeps heavily interfering with the DCEU films. That's the main difference. The dark tone ain't the issue (TDK trilogy...). It's the writing and constant interference. I don't blame Ben for wanting to leave. How WB handled JL is a joke. He's done great with the material he's been given, but the material itself ain't great. He's only been Batman on screen for nearly 2 years and he already wants out. That should tell you everything.

[@TheGeorgeD13]

It's clear to me that Ben started to think of leaving once they took his Batman movie away from him. He wanted to do something with Batman that was VERY dark, like BVS, maybe without the killing, but still brutal and dark and WB wasn't having that. And Ben refused to compromise, so they took the film away from him. As for Logan, that didn't really pay off for me. That's something that took me out of the movie. I hate referential points more than anything else in the world. They always take me out of the movie. Logan works WAY better as a stand-alone with an imagined past for me.

[@memmustafa18]

I couldn't have put it better myself

[@rolanddeschain6089]

I like the whole cinematic universes in comicbookmovies.Because it lends itself to it. At the same time, I think they are still in their early stages and, as Patrick says, Infinity War may be the first step. Because at the moment everything is still very loose. Even with the MCU. The films can also all be looked at stand-alones. The links are very small. Even if it sometimes does not feel that way. The scenes from the individual films that allude to Infinity War are relatively small and very short. Yes, when Logan talks about the past, you have a sense of what he means. However, it's more like your own idea of it. The connections remain hollow. The continuity of X-Men movies is pretty amateurish. So far, no comicbookmovie has touched it's sequel plotwise or emotionally such as "Terminator" to "T2" or "The Two Towers" to "The Return of the King". This is not an indictment. I just wanna see that!

[@reculture]

Alex Love hey buddy, seen you often at Collider's comment section. Just wanted to say hi

[@AlexLove631]

reculture, what up fam!

[@MalloryMovies]

I can't wait for the "Patrick Explains Comic Books" video to his parents where he tries to explain cable's back story and all of the MCU to his parents

[@MrPtrlix]

lmao the last video.

[@MagicalSamurai2]

Doctor Who: Provides an in-universe reboot button that allows them to change the entire cast and dramatically shift tone.

[@heliguerrero1320]

Continuity, the blessing and the curse of superhero comic books, now bleeding into mainstream media.

[@grail68]

Helí Guerrero but... but... wrestling!

[@Repicheep22]

This reminds me of the Wizard of Oz, strangely enough. The reason being, the reason Dorothy's adventures were turned into a dream in the film, was because the executives in charge didn't think audiences would buy into the premise without it. They thought the idea of a young girl getting swept into a magical land and having adventures was too outlandish for audiences to grasp, unless they justified all the ridiculousness as being part of a dream.

[@SeizureToday]

Oh! I think you may have missed an important element to general audiences embracing serialized movies with Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, those 2000s fantasy franchises. Unlike Star Wars, both series were not supposed to end until the culminating chapter. By getting audiences super hyped on them, they probably opened the doors for something like Marvel to try their experiment.

[@Rabidfoxxx]

serialized novels-to-film can be their own category

[@SeizureToday]

Yeah, I don't know if I agree because these are books, too. And they're picking and choosing plenty of junk from comics. They're based off things appearing in these books from the last 100 years. I don't entirely see a difference.

[@Rabidfoxxx]

The difference is that these serialized novels come to an end after a run, this means that while there may be sequals it is still a singular contained story with a beginning and an end (ie the story of The One Ring). These particular comic books are seemingly never ending and span across multiple solo and self-titled movies to create an entire interconnected universe with things happening simultaneously that effect one another forcing the characters to come together in an epic story. Very different film making.

[@Sharikacat]

And because the comics are still active and ongoing, they can tell more stories than a novel series that has a clear ending. Not just more stories, but with universe resets, they can tell radically different stories the next time around that couldn't have been done with the previous continuity, all of which gives more plot ideas for a movie. Comics rely on cliffhangers to keep the reader buying the next book, but studios used to demand movies be stand alone- not gonna get a sequel made if the first one flopped. The Matrix was a fine stand alone movie (sequels were then shoe-horned in). Harry Potter movies tell single stories (the Voldermort revival doesn't really kick in until the end of Book 4), so they could have stopped after the first if the movie sucked. LOTR filmed all three movies (yet one story) at once, and New Line Cinema would have been bankrupt if LOTR failed.

[@ZakJames]

I agree that it’s affecting TV and film in more ways than just cinematic universes.

[@applebee6455]

Wasn't TV doing it first?

[@MrMorda898]

It's not cinema, but in the late 90s and early 2000s Buffy and Angel built a large shared universe containing a dense and growing mythology with regular reference to one another and occasional crossovers. This has in turn been greatly extended in the comic continuation. There were a handful of big highly publicised crossover event episodes, but every now and then one character would just appear in the other show (Willow for instance, at the end of Angel season 2). One of the things I always loved about the Buffyverse was how comic-booky it was in tone, narrative and style. They were also about superheroes, which was cool.

[@samrtnr97]

Highly agreed. In retrospect, the signs are very much there Joss Whedon would one day be involved in several comic book related things. (I mean, if you really think about it, Buffy herself is basically a superhero, right down to having an origin story)

[@nohbuddy1]

MrMorda898 Um. Star Trek?

[@guyr3618]

Yep. Like in most things - Buffy did it first :)

[@sabinea.4532]

Guy R and almost every time best..

[@NTEDOG561]

Great point

[@Jaydotp]

"normal people, like our parents"

[@ryanmccurdy9423]

I'm glad someone is acknowledging the Universal Monster films from the 30s and 40s with Wolfman meets Frankenstein and onward. Unfortunate Universal had to shit the bed with Tom cruise providing the Exlax.

[@36inc]

good IP in stupid hands might as well be toilet paper. Heres hoping they fired who ever headed that film and continue on with a better idea. cause if i dont get to see a new Frankenstiens creation or Dracula because tom cruise did a worse mummy film than Fraser(I do like those Brenden fraser ones) Im gonna be mad.

[@LoganLS0]

I never got into comics but I really like this type of storytelling. Probably because I'm an obsessive nerd that likes aquiring useless knowledge for fun.

[@valarmorghulis7934]

Logan Strom This is me, I constantly just scan through old comics and view random Wikipedia's.

[@SamSam-il6ec]

Logan Strom me too

[@dbrokensoul]

@jeff jeff who are you and why you sounded like me?

[@agustinvenegas5238]

Logan Strom same

[@ginsan8198]

Don't self-proclaim yourself as a nerd if you never got into comics. :p

[@RealQwaqa]

Continuity is a double edged sword. And eventually it gets to the point where it only restricts creativity and scares off new audiences. I think that it says something that some of the best DC stories published in the last 30 years all have been Else world stories.

[@b.parker1740]

While I myself do love comics and superheroes, I feel more inclined to applaud a contained, standalone film in this current era. Stories are supposed to end. Some stories are good to watch over time, but padding things out with similar movies that can't carry any consequences for the characters seems a little empty. One of the reasons why the first two Raimi Spider-Man movies worked so well is because Peter faced consequences and issues applying to his powers and he wasn't doing his job just to be compared to other heroes in his universe. In that regard, his struggle was far more compelling and the end results of both of those films were far more satisfying than say most of the current line up of cinematic universe films (like really, the latest Spidey movie ended on a joke). While there are some pluses to a CU, the whole idea of keeping a film series running over a long span of time seems like just a way to take away from the greater affect in storytelling and its necessity in the long run.

[@Numbuh1NerdX]

I think what you're describing here has less to do with cinematic universes and more to do with a parallel struggle in tone. Somehow Marvel's popularized the idea that superhero movies are supposed to be comedies (despite the fact that the two universally regarded as the best ones are so serious and emotionally grounding??) which has been more or less reinforced by botched attempts to do serious ones, like Man of Steel, Fant4stic, etc.. Of course, studio executives never seem to understand that things aren't so broad and that all stories aren't created equal. The last 3 Marvel movies have all been comedies before anything else, whereas Raimi's Spider-Man wasn't. It was funny at times, but it wasn't an outright comedy in the way that Homecoming and Ragnarok were. I think the hollowness you describe has a lot more to do with that mindset and it's mishandling of the cinematic universe concept than it does the cinematic universe concept. tl;dr: Not every cinematic universe works, no, but a lot of them work a lot better when they remember that not every story in them is the same.

[@b.parker1740]

I can definitely say that it does kind of come to that, but I also feel like there are some weird elements regarding the way that some characters never change. Like, Tony Stark is pretty much the same after almost 10 years. He started out as an irresponsible quirk character who built a suit and was involved with semi-Pepper. He matured by the end of the first film. Second film, he's an irresponsible quirk character who builds a new suit and is semi-involved with Pepper. He matured again by the end. Finally at the end of Iron Man 3, he finally gave up the suits and grew romantically with Pepper. Then Ultron happened. He becomes irresponsible again with a ton of suits. Then, in Civil War, Pepper breaks up with him. This seems important...until Homecoming: where he is with Pepper, who he proposes to, and naturally has a level irresponsibility and more suits. I do agree that tone plays into the way that he is characterized, but it seems so odd creatively speaking.

[@IkeOkerekeNews]

Bruce Parker Stark has actually changed a lot.

[@b.parker1740]

In like small ways (the arc reactor being out, now siding with govt, a brief period of PTSD), maybe. But I still feel like Tony is about the same as when the MCU started. He makes really odd decisions that could destroy his life or others' (such as taking Spidey into that battefield full of assassins, giving him a "deadly force protocol" with a suit that could be hacked by a teenager, despite his own desire to rid the world of killer weapons; creating Ultron out of a gut instinct and does about the same exist thing with Vision slightly later in time; restocking the Iron Man gallery 24/7 despite giving it all up for Pepper years ago; etc.). I think though the one thing that bugs me the most though had to be his sudden falling back in with Pepper in Homecoming. That story arc from Civil War would've been so cool to explore more afterwards and they tossed it out in literally the very next film he was featured in. Like, it's stuff like that that makes it hard for me to really keep following these characters. Hopefully, Tony does something meaningful or sacrificial to bring something to his character in Infinity. If not, I'm not sure if I can really vouch for him moving on.

[@IkeOkerekeNews]

Bruce Parker Tony as character has turned from a character that didn't care about anything, to somebody who is self-aware about his actions around the world. This increasing pushes him to do things that help protect people. Examples inculde supporting the Accords, creating the Iron Legion, etc.

[@SeizureToday]

But weren't the Harry Potter movies basically a longform cinematic work?

[@krombopulos_michael]

penile 1 most of those don't really count. As Patrick said, most sequels traditionally did not expand on the story so much as repeat it in their own self-contained way. X-Men doesn't really make sense as a continuous series because there are too many continuity errors. Mission Impossible is a prime example of the older types of sequels in which each movie was pretty self-contained and did not heavily reference ones before it. Same for Die Hard. None of these really had any kind of overarching plot to bring them all together, they were more like a series of episodes where you could drop in and watch any single one and it would still make complete sense. Even the Nolan Batman trilogy was like that.

[@valarmorghulis7934]

Matthew Garcia also it was based off books.

[@timothydao2416]

Matthew Garcia o

[@beardedtinman8491]

Krombopulos Michael Harry Potter was a long story that requires the audience to be along the ride from early films. Lord of the Rings even more so. It is just one single story that happened to be told in three movies.

[@applebee6455]

+penile 1 You forgot to mention the Twilight series.

[@piersmurphy4922]

Jesus, Willems, be gentle with your comics, you heavy-handed monster!

[@movieblocks9164]

Piers Murphy He was so rough with those metal comics SOOO ROUGH The HORROR😳😳😳

[@ReaperXC]

This video was outstanding. Everything you said I take for granted as a comic fanatic. Yeah, how they handle Cable and what they choose to use for his backstory will be very interesting!

[@choicedecision]

The whole idea you've presented here Patrick makes me giddy. Thank you!

[@allanrempel5839]

The Event of various genres: 1. Fantasy: There's so much room here for development, if only studios made fantasy movies. 2. Sci-fi: Imagine a collection of stories, all subtly hinting at an super-powerful alien species. Like Prometheus, except planned, and good. 3. Monster: Universal is setting up Dark Universe, if only I trusted them to deliver a good payoff. Imagine a series setting up a C'thun Event. In fact, just do a Lovecraft anthology. Other genres would find it tough to do an Event. You need the stakes to build to supernatural proportions, and that's hard to do if you're rooted in mundane reality.

[@crispian67]

Interesting, though I'd disagree about "mundane reality" having no potential. In fact, it is THE prime mover, especially if subjected to a baffled audience cheated of the comfort of predictability. That is the essence of drama and of course, horror...but what the mind sees might be more powerful than any cinematic vision which is why we still have books... 1. Fantasy has been done, notably in the 80's heyday and arguably as blockbusters such as Harry Potter and even Avatar. It's usually blended with other genres making it less obvious but is still there. 2. Sci-fi has the challenge of appealing to diverse audiences, some of whom don't want more than philosophical explorations writ large. Hence, 2 great movies that IMO expertly mix genres: Mars Attacks (Sci-Fi Comedy) and Event Horizon (Sci-Fi Horror) 3. Monster has transmogrified to something more subtle yet sinister and menacing in representing hidden tendencies more than overt projections. It doesn't mean monster films are dead but that ones with obvious beasts (i.e.: King Kong, Godzilla) are popular due to retro appeal and schlock factor. The terror such monsters originally elicited back in earlier cinema audiences is now instilled by way of "the enemy within"...soulless, psychopathic and possibly even a reflection of our darker tendencies. Definitely, keep the studio fires burning by way of roller-coater "event" experiences, but don't neglect the ability to evoke powerful imagery through great acting and storytelling that leaves lasting impressions...possibly even sequel-worthy :)

[@SushiVolcano]

They don't need to build to supernatural proportions. They only need to build up to an antagonistic force capable of dealing with each of the various protagonists involved. For example, instead of a supernatural event, there could be some person who's in charge of crime organizations in various cities and is planning on becoming a dictator and ruling the country. That's an example for a crime genre. Not even fantasy, sci-fi, or monsters.

[@robsonwaterkemper]

An espionage centred franchise could build up to a new World War for instance. Imagine a Tom Clancy franchise with Jack Ryan, John Clark, Sam Fisher, Ghost Recon, RB6 and Division all together.

[@Gonzaaaga]

An awesome conclusion to a great video! Really enjoy this type of content from you, Patrick, thank you very much

[@Plumbdoggg]

Great video, patrick! I love when you talk about comics!

[@RudieObias]

I do not trust WB/DC to get Flashpoint right. They can't even get Superman, Batman, Suicide Squad, or the Justice League right. Wonder Woman is the only DCEU movie that matters!

[@CJonesApple]

Rudie Obias That's DC's biggest problem. Lack of faith.

[@pureblackfire511]

Flashpoint is a bad idea period. will confuse the hell out of non comic reading audience.

PureBlackFire not period. Like the video said, you'd think the same of Civil War and Infinity War. It would only confuse them because he and the characters aren't established.

[@veggiesblowup8785]

I'm afraid that I have to disagree. Man of Steel and Justice League are, while not perfect, good movies. I suggest you take another look at Man of Steel at least- it's a well scripted, well thought out adaptation of current Superman comics. I personally haven't seen Batman v Superman, so I can't comment on it, but I'm not gonna argue with you about Suicide Squad. That movie was a trash fire.

[@IndecisiveJR]

Rudie Obias they probably aren’t gonna do it justice not because of Dc’s previous movies being bad, but because flashpoint I’ve heard is being made for the primary purpose of being a reboot for the universe. So it seems like their priorities will be how this movie will fix the universe instead of making a good stand alone movie

[@spiderjeranimo4992]

In another universe DC movies are killing it, they're now in thier third phase and Justice League:Crisis is coming out soon and looks epic. Marvel on the other hand started well with Iron Man but Captain America Vs Iron Man:Dawn of Vengence, Thunderbolts and The Avengers were pretty bad, the Black Widow movie did well and is getting a sequel, the Namor movie is coming out next year. Many think Marvel should reboot but they just announced phase 2 with no directors, writers, or actors confirmed, it does'nt fill most with confidence when the first phase was mostly naff. :p

[@derekskelton4187]

I genuinely can't imagine a bad Thunderbolts story. Don't break my mind like that

[@GabyGeorge1996]

Rick Sanchez could probably make a fortune selling bootleg copies of films from other universes

[@jackyoh971]

I would love to talk about cable with my mom... I can't wait...

[@The_Brometheus]

Hey Patrick! Really liked this video, thanks for making it!

[@VictorBalestrin]

I was kinda hoping Patrick would bring up the TV version of Flashpoint, which, to my understanding, did retcon a few things in Arrow, too, not only on The Flash (which is the only show set in that universe that I really follow).

Victor Balestrin it just made a baby become male and that's it lol TV Flashpoint was garbage

[@VictorBalestrin]

Yeah, they pretty much dealt with it only in Flash, where the damage was indeed a little bigger. I thought that'd be the key to integrating Supergirl to the same Earth but what do I know?

[@rcc_96]

All of your videos are amazing. Absolutely love your channel.

[@dizzled.1325]

I appreciate this video and loved the way you broke this down

[@Numbuh1NerdX]

I think these movies - especially Marvel's - miss the appeal of comics in one very significant way: not every story is a sequel to the last one. The wonderful thing about comics and how massive they are is that you can pick and choose what you want to read, so long as you're comfortable accepting that there's a whole world of stuff outside of what you're reading that you won't know the whole breadth of. Comics writers have an adage: "Every issue is somebody's first." Marvel has no jumping on point. Marvel has no concern for new audiences, or the people only watching Iron Man movies. You're expected to know all of it all the time, whereas comics only expect you to *accept* all of it all of the time. DC's tv stuff is doing it the best right now. Every year they have their big crossover event, and every year that crossover furthers the plots of all those shows while never expecting you to be watching *all* of them. They take a little bit of time in-story to fill us in on the broad strokes of what's been going on and make sure every moment means about as much to the guy who's seen every episode of Legends of Tomorrow twice as it does to the moms asking "What's a Firestorm". That got rambly, alright, tl;dr: Comics are hundreds of parallel stories that occasionally interact, whereas Marvel movies in particular (although DC and Fox have been guilty of this on occasion) are one, single story where each chapter just has a different lead.

[@rmsgrey]

What other movies do you need to see first before watching Doctor Strange? At one point there's a casual reference to an Infinity Stone. There's some injuries that might be a reference to a background detail in Iron Man 2. I'm pretty sure Avengers Tower is in a skyline at some point. You can watch the whole of Doctor Strange as the very first Marvel movie you go see and, sure, you won't get as much out of it as the person who's been reading the comics for 30 years, but you'll be able to follow the plot and characters just fine.

[@Numbuh1NerdX]

Spider-Man wasn't an origin trilogy though? It was one origin story succeeded by two continuations of the overarcing plot. It's like Guardians of the Galaxy: so far, those movies function perfectly on their own. There is nothing else anyone expects you to watch. Guardians is a franchise, but it also gets to occasionally interact with other franchises. Parallel stories that occasionally overlap or cross over but never so often that you have to be audience to literally every story in order to understand what's going on. I can watch Flash but not Arrow, and not be lost whenever Oliver Queen shows up in Central City. Meanwhile, I have to pause Civil War every five minutes to explain to my mother what happened in Age of Ultron. Make watching every movie *more rewarding* instead of *necessary*.

[@rmsgrey]

Yeah, Civil War is effectively Avengers 2.5, but that's an exception to the general rule. With 16 movies (17 once Black Panther comes out) only the two Avengers movies and Civil War rely on knowledge of events from outside the individual series - some, like Iron Man 3, refer to events, and include characters, from other movies, but they don't need more explanation beyond what's given in context.

[@legoworld246]

Even then, you can just watch the story of a single character in the movies and understand things perfectly. Like... try watching just Captain America : The First Avenger, The Avengers, Winter Soldier, Age of Ultron, and then Civil War in a row. You'll understand the story well enough. Not exactly everything, but you don't *have* to watch every movie to get a good story. Now try watching just Iron Man, Iron Man 2, The Avengers, Iron Man 3, Age of Ultron, and Civil War. Still works. And if you do it after the Captain America marathon, then it gets even better, as now you know more about Tony Stark, his story, and motivation. What was a good story about a super soldier who was frozen for decades and has to adapt to the modern world, representing a country whose ideals don't represent him now adds the story of a billionare who realizes that his past actions were completely wrong, and tries to fix his mistakes, and make a better world. Both stories are very good, but together, they're great. And that's the point. The MCU's separate franchises are good stories on their own. It's just that watching them all makes an amazing story.

[@sertaki]

I agree, except for the big crossover movies, each of them is a good jumping-on point - especially the first one of a given storyline. But I'm pretty sure Phase 4 will present the best jumping on point yet ... after the dust has settled.

[@RothurThePaladin]

Cable back story is insane! Great video.

[@SirGeeeO]

If they go full Flashpoint, I hope there's at least a nod to the CW shows... maybe Smallville too

[@cyclone927]

I wanna see a live action "splash page" with all the universe showing the TV and Movie adaptations. Probably not gonna happen

[@GiantButterKnife]

I just want to see a small scene with a three person justice league using the 60's and 70's Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman.

[@EwanMakeMovies]

2:05 I freaking love that Morrison run!

[@EwanMakeMovies]

Also, I wanna see The Beyonder learn about pooping on screen. #SecretWarsIIMovie

[@weiling2201]

Yes, thanks for bringing this up. I think everyone who watched the trailer knew instinctively that Infinity Wars was going to be a game-changer in a way Avengers was (but Age of Ultron wasn't), but I'm glad you put it into words for me.

[@jamesbellcentraltv]

Great video! Long-form storytelling set in a consistent universe through several separate works is something that book lovers are pretty familiar with. (E.g. John le Carré's 'George Smiley' spy novels: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Smiley ) Perhaps these kind of stories could be one way movie studios could take this style of storytelling outside of the superhero genre?

[@legojosephstudios4959]

That video rocked! I have nothing else to add.

[@MrFinster53]

Love the video. I think the main problem with long form story telling in movies is that some instances the studio will focus so much on planting seeds for the next film that they dont make a good first movie. Like The Amazing Spider-man Franchise and Universal's attempt at a Dark Universe. There's always that phrase of worrying about the first movie being good first before trying to do too much. So I think long form story telling is great in movies when done right but most studios get ahead of themselves

[@TonyMontana-ec6kt]

its 4am dont know how i ended up here, but glad i did, seems like an exciting channel.

[@burgundyknight6826]

Your last comment made me realize my dad knew cables back story before it was main stream, lol. I'm the son of a comic and toy collector. To be honest me and my family think it's amazing that all these stories and characters are now recognized all over the world, it's great!

[@MrX-pc5xn]

When you say he uses continuity, you mean he RETCONs the stories.

[@UmbrellaGent]

I still want that Billy Dee Williams Two-Face DAMMIT!

[@AlexLove631]

Lego Batman hooked us up with a bit of that

[@richardshasteen7648]

Bill Dee Williams voiced Two-Face in the Lego Batman movie.

[@UmbrellaGent]

Yeah. But still, I would like to see him in a comic at least.

[@stillpont]

Nice study, but it could be certainly deepened. As a radical opponent to Marvel/DC/[insert pop culture franchise here], what feels a bit more unsettling is how the viewer's psychology has switched during the last decade. How this continuity that you've exposed, actually has become a 'flaw' exploited by studios, brands and corporations. Either through merchandising, social media, transmedia, and consumer-models; this has supposed an interesting twist on how new mythos and pathos are being brought to all sorts of entertainment. As westerns used to do up to the 60s in History of Cinema.

[@TheOneTrueErica]

As someone who never read comics growing up, I was enamored with the superhero cartoons I saw on TV and was thrilled when I could latch onto more of those characters in live action films. These days I still can't find an entry point to most American comic books but I've become a die-hard fan of the MCU. I never would've thought I'd be able to bond with parents, teachers, even casual strangers over how Ant-Man was a fun heist movie, or that The Winter Soldier was an awesome spy flick with Robert Redford, or even that Guardians of the Galaxy was weird af but a gun-toting foul-mouthed sentient raccoon and a giant tree had the best buddy-cop relationship. I'm cautiously optimistic at the prospect of Flashpoint since it has the potential of course-correcting the DCEU.

[@felis1977]

The last bit about Cable made me laugh out loud. :D His backstory is so convoluted even I, a Marvel nerd, can barely wrap my head around it :)

[@thislittlelight5657]

I agree. If newly introduced concepts and characters take away from the established storyline, then it is a square peg trying to fit into a round hole. I appreciate storylines that respect the work before it, and are diligent to do their research and become integrated into what has already been established as part of cohesive well-developed storyline, rather than casting all that information off, and claiming it is part of the old, when it is really something new. Collaborations can work if they don't contradict each other.

[@eppursimuove3119]

Fuck I feel like I've been shouting this to all my friends and family like a crazy person for the last 5 years. I love your content man thank you!!

[@NarfiRef]

For a long time I’ve wanted this approach (minus the time-travel/continuity altering elements) to be applied to two subjects: Greek Mythology and US history. For Greek Mythology, they would focus exclusively on the stories of heroes. When mapped out the big focal points would be Jason and the Argonauts, and the Trojan War. The problems I can see with what I would like this to be however, are values dissonance and a distinct lack of action in Greek drama that might make the tragedies difficult to adapt. For US history they might not even have a single event movie, but would basically be bio-pics that were interwoven by reusing the same actors for prominent figures. The problem I foresee with this however, is that these would probably reinforce the reified view Americans have of the founders.

[@IkeOkerekeNews]

Eric Schwenke What reified view?

[@NarfiRef]

Ike Okereke I said “reified”, not “refined”. However, I checked to make sure I was using the word correctly, and it turns out I haven’t been. Live and learn, eh?

[@IkeOkerekeNews]

Eric Schwenke Again, what reified view?

[@jimbo6239]

I also love how some movies serve as tie ins to movie events, like how if there was idk a black panther run going at the same time as civil war then there’d be a tie in issue, like how Thor Ragnarok serves as a tie in to Age Of Ultron, Homecoming to Civil War, Ant Man and The Wasp to Infinity war

[@2rustysporks]

Love this stuff. thank you for this man :)

[@ariananehrbass8983]

Excellent point: it makes me really excited to know that doing a Flashpoint story DOES give DC a second chance to get things right. I would love to see them create a successful cinematic universe! They have fantastic material to work with, a devoted fan base, and they would be able to do things with their tone and characters which could provide a great stylistic contrast to Marvel’s movies. If they use their get-out-of-jail-free card appropriately, this could really give them a chance to take a step back, take a deep breath, seriously look at what Marvel did to succeed, and try it their own way. Who knows, they might even improve on the formula.

[@JoeEnglandShow]

Something occurs to me..... Barry Allen goes back in time for Flashpoint, but only so far. They could very easily say that Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, Suicide Squad, and Justice League are overwritten by a new timeline. However, Wonder Woman takes place mostly during the first World War! And even during the scenes set in the present day, we don't get much connective tissue besides a photo and a note from Bruce Wayne (whose face we don't see). It would be possible, therefore, to say that everything BUT Wonder Woman was changed, effectively preserving the crown jewel of the DCEU and allowing its best film to remain perfectly canonical. Which would be a neat little hat trick!

[@iammax1393]

This brings to mind the CW special _"Invasion!"_ from a year or so back. Also a good example of an event, they interlinked episodes from The Flash, Arrow, and Legends of Tomorrow (with a reference at the end of an episode of Supergirl) altogether into one TV special. To finish the story you had to watch an episode from each show. Clever promotion tool, but also a surprisingly effective storytelling method

[@theoptimisticmetalhead7787]

Godzilla is a longer running series than James Bond. Or are you ignoring it because it can be split up into different time periods with "different" Godzillas?

[@enkiimuto1041]

Most likely. I'm no godzilla expert but whenever a friend would speak about it, i felt it was one movie trying to retcon the previous... if true, Godzilla should probably join the x-men.

[@bul13ts]

With the number of reboots that movie's had, I definitely agree that it has more in common with X Men than Bond.

[@doctorhandsome]

The movies featuring Darna (basically the Wonder Woman of the Philippines) started even earlier than Godzilla, although there hasn't been a new one since 1994.

[@guyonyoutube1803]

For me a franchise is a franchise, either if there a composed of sequels, prequels, remakes, premakes, altquels, reboots and spin-offs. The Halloween franchise is always retconning the previous films, yet we speak of it as a franchise. One could argue that Bond is also composed of many reboots since each film retcon the fact that the man has got to age between 1962 and 2002! (And no, James Bond is not a codename for every agent married to Tracy, flirting with Moneypenny, being friend to Felix and drinking martinis...) Ask a producer what he thinks is a franchise lol The argument here is not to evaluates the films. Maybe all the Godzilla films are not that good, but that's irrelevant. Godzilla is the longest franchise.

[@xaalcarlsonanimations1539]

godzillas cannon is more confusingly tied then a pretzal knot and the movies dont seem to happen in order that being said I do love me some Gojira

[@DennisBratland]

"That's the kind of thing Jeff Johns does!" OK, fine, but this "possessed by an evil alien" thing is the same twist they used for Dark Phoenix and Ms. Marvel and probably hundreds of times I've never heard of. What passes for "clever" in comics? Does it show more respect for the audience's intelligence to just change Harvey Dent from black to white without saying a word about it than asking them to buy a cheap time travel or alien possession explanation?

[@thejordyoshi]

It isn't clever, it's playing by the rules. Instead of just disregarding Evil Hal, Johns wrote an in universe explanation for why he's good again. This might seem to be the obvious thing to do, but that's only due to our exposure to comics. In any other medium, they may have dismissed earlier points of canon in favor of writing a good story.

[@Chandasouk]

Josh Yord One of the things I found out the hard way with comics...those damn retcons. Some are pretty cool though.

[@DennisBratland]

"Wrote?" Copied, you mean. This is my point. If it's going to be the same old same old, why bother?

[@gabrielidusogie9189]

* Geoff Johns

[@bgaesop]

James Bond isn't the longest running film series. Godzilla came out 8 years before the Dr. No

[@DaddyGamerReviews]

For sure the best way to do something like this is to nail down a deal for multiple movies with that in mind. Depending on how Infinity War and Flashpoint do could really impact studio heads willingness to agree to that many movies up front. I'd be excited to see this format done in other genres and stories though!

[@joshuageraldbutler8037]

Absolutely loved this video!

[@PauLtus_B]

I'd just like to say that I hate this trend. I'm not saying these intertwined continuing stories can't add up to anything, but fact of the matter is, that's generally not why stories are done like this. I think the success of this simply relies on people "needing" to see it rather than wanting to. Before you can watch an Avengers movie you sorta need all the other forgoing Marvel movies, even if you're not particularly interested in these characters. Decent character arcs and themes just get muddled in a whole lot of stuff that needs to be tied into. The point isn't giving an interesting experience in the first place but making you want to buy the next one. I think the success of TV series in particular is more based on addiction than actual enjoyment. The point of ending on cliffhangers really doesn't have a ton of artistic value but it does want to make you watch the next episode. For the both of them, they're generally made to go on forever, not to actually go anywhere. They won't get a finale until people have lost interest in it, not because the stories that can be told have been told.

[@Barada73]

You seem to be forgetting about Lord of the Rings when you say that Star Wars is the only example of long form storytelling in movies, prior to the MCU.

[@R0ndras]

I was about to write about F&F and you said it. I was very surprised with this franchises specially in the 7th movie, when they rescued a secondary character from the second movie("Travolta") and made him basically some kind of low level mercenary bad guy at the start of the movie. And then there's the other connections they do, specially with the 3rd movie.

[@gimmibox]

After the DC Films restructuring recently I'm not sure Geoff Johns still has that kind of creative control or even at all...

[@ThreadBomb]

He's never had any real power at WB anyway.

[@Revealingstorm.]

He still has the job

[@jacobkozelichki4883]

Quantum of Solace is a direct sequel to Casino Royale and the the plot is Bond trying to dig into Why Vesper did what she did. It also wasn't well received, but as a comic book fan I loved it. There was also a hint that they wanted to bring old retired bonds in for Skyfall, which while cool, definitely made purists sick with worry. I can see what you are saying in that comic books connected storyline into places you would not expect. Bond is always a different adventure, and for a second, they tried to bring them all together as a single great adventure! Love the videos. Thanks for all you do.

[@generalkenobi7873]

Grant Morrison's run on Batman is gold

[@michaelmyers260]

“The longest running movie series of all time, in James Bond...” Ummmm.... excuse you? That feat of history goes to the Godzilla franchise.

[@chrisreager2614]

Good video bud. Subbed.

[@johntrek187]

Star Trek has done this for years. Glad someone mentioned it. Though I think they deserve more credit, especially TNG films....

[@have345]

Man really appreciate your videos! Great stuff, what do you think about Disney potentially buying Fox?

[@Dohsoda]

Hey now, that "Batman Returns" line reference is great.

[@dojokonojo]

A cross-over event with the whole St. Elsewhere cinematic universe would blow our minds.

[@dastrn]

Blew my mind with the Cable comment at the end.

[@dominomasked]

Just as a throwaway, you finally handed me a pitch that makes me feel like I should watch the Fast and Furious franchise. And I'm probably going to enjoy it. Darn you.

[@EposVox]

Good stuff!

[@Loser-lh8di]

Michael Keaton played Ray Nicolette in both Out of Sight and Jackie Brown. Both movies are adaptations of Elmore Leonard novels (Jackie Brown is titled Rum Punch) but each movie was made by a different studio. Add Justified and Karen Sisco and you have yourself a Elmore Leonard shared universe.

[@xQueenyBee]

Excellent video!

[@seanaverill236]

I would be interested to have the history of film explored and commented on, specifically how theatres used to show series, from what i understand, in a similar way to how a tv show functions now-a-days. Was it just tv but on the bigger screen or were their differences in how the stories were told? Was it less continuity based than i understand and more just the characters in stories that resolved? Was it less continuous than television? I find the history of film in all its forms very interesting and complex. Also I wonder how the direction tv and film will take going forward and where you think it should, should as in is best suited, to go.

[@BurakUnan]

good point. and you've got to love THE HAIR

[@ericsvogel]

Great video - how do you not address that one of the reasons that people are able to follow these broad, sweeping story archs NOW, is b/c they're cataloged, analyzed, deconstructed, reassembled, reanalyzed, dissected, ressected, and analyzed again because of the internet? The advent of the internet and the vast collection of knowledge (and stupidity) that can be accumulated on there enables casual viewers to read about easter eggs, hidden tie ins, and "10 things you definitely missed from movie X" for literally as long as they feel like reading.

[@rmsgrey]

Which itself echoes the early development of VCR/DVR/NetFlix allowing serialised TV to assume that viewers saw last episode rather than constantly needing to recap, leading to serials replacing episodic shows.

[@Lexman509]

We used to have things like these movies. They were called 'television shows'. The A-Team would show up and help people out. Then they would construct a complicated machine in mere hours and Hannibal would say: "I love it when a plan comes together."

[@Xeroxthebeautiful]

I had actually somehow never thought about the Cable point now I can't stop thinking about how confused my dad's going to be especially since he can barely understand anything related to time travel even the simple stuff

[@alio2269]

Whoa when you mentioned flashpoint I was like oh shit this has potential!

[@nickshaffer80]

6:27 Better than Secret Wars II, my hope is for 6-9 years from now getting some version of Jonathan Hickman’s Secret Wars after a version of Time Runs Out God-Doom demands it

[@jcarm185]

Wouldn't it be cool, even if only briefly, somehow some DC character opens up a dimensional portal and all the different Batman's get to meet or at least see each other ??! Keaton, Kilmer, Clooney, Bale, and Aflek all crossing a portal to meet! I love the idea!!

[@thejohnsaye]

So you know how Crisis on Infinite Earths went down, and I appreciate how you mentioned that string from Flash, so- how Crisis combined multiple threads of storytelling down so there was you know, one Superman instead of the old one in Action, and the young one in Superman etc. condensing everything down, I think the Flashpoint movie, if GJ has the guts could cross over the whole Arrow/Flash-verse and the current Snyder DC movies into one giant shared cohesive DC TV/Movie-verse (including a Gotham crossover) that lands us with a fresh new TV/Movie spanning Batman series we know for sure based on what CW has achieved that ties everything together, and with Titans, across the Internet. The trick is... which Barry Allen has to melt like in Crisis? The tv one we have come to love on the CW or the new movie version? In the end, there’s only room for one. You know this kind crossover event would be the best way for DC to retcon their movie universe by leveraging their success on TV. I think it would work, and tie them all together, and like in the past, it would be just like DC.

[@larrystylinson3309]

Lmao when you started taking about movie crossovers I immediately thought of the Hannah Montana, Wizards of Waverly Place, and Suite Life of Zack and Cody crossover *sigh* iconic

[@whateversonmymind6690]

I agree with everything you said but the main problem with your argument is that TV shows have also been doing this for decades. Maybe not to the same extent as comic books but television has always favoured continuity more than film has so it is not an entirely new trope in the sphere of film

[@galactic85]

TV shows have been doing serialized story telling but there haven't really been multiple shows running at the same time that take place in the same universe and play off each other to create huge cross over installments that affect elements on all the shows involved. Buffy and Angel come to mind since both took place in the same universe and were connected by certain plot elements, but they never built up to a big cross over that united every character in the Buffy-verse together demanded you pay attention to both shows. This idea of creating multiple ongoing film franchises or TV shows that all link together and demand that you pay attention because they are going to build to some sort of big event is something that's new.

[@GiantButterKnife]

I'm still waiting for the CW shows to make good on their Green Lantern tease. They called out Ferris Air Testing Facility, which closed down after a test pilot went missing and reference Coast City a couple times.

[@Vannah272]

I think an example of this on TV is Doctor Who. It has decades of continuity that can get referenced at any time without bothering to explain it to the audience. They just expect you to either know it or go with it.

[@MaxMarriner]

Aaaaand a Spider-verse Movie was announced the day this video went up. Good timing.

[@tvulture5590]

I'd like to point out that Japan has been doing team up movies for years prior with their Tokusatsu franchises. Every Sentai team had a crossover with one or two teams and occasionally, Kamen Rider crossed over as well.

[@daftyfunky]

I just realized that Comicbook storytelling and WWE storytelling have a lot in common...

[@alfa01spotivo]

@Snehil Shrey thats probably because you're either biased or havent watched any of the good ones

[@Kevin_Johnson97]

Wasn't Geoff Johns just demoted after Justice League underperformed? I know he's still involved in the comics, but I'm pretty sure he's done as far as the movies go.

[@licoricelain2514]

Kevin Johnson he and the CEO of DC are the heads of comics, games, tv shows and animated works. The cinematic versions are the only ones they have almost no say in. WB's incompetence is truly staggering.

[@PennyAfNorberg]

Back to the future was also long format, as lords of the rings and harry potter.

[@bluepearl_22]

Yeah but the main difference is those were all aimed at telling a self contained story with a defined end. The MCU is designed to theoretically go on forever which changes the way those stories are being told.

[@PennyAfNorberg]

@@bluepearl_22 I think that in the future storytelling in the 2010s will be caratics as long format storytelling with mcu and got as prime examples

[@nexx410]

Yeah, too bad I just can't get excited about the comic book movies. Honestly, the constant reboots, reloads, rebirths and etc. are really tiresome.

[@cabronmalisimo]

You should get started with that Cable's backstory video for parents...

[@litcrit1624]

And by Comics, “we’re sticking pretty much with mainstream superhero comics.” [Hits stop. Bangs head.]

[@PaulGuy]

It turns out that audiences aren't as dumb as Hollywood thinks they are. Also that scriptwriters aren't as clever as they think they are.

[@cosmicmcmoon5773]

Fast forward to 2019 and we now have Avengers Endgame. Crazy times we're living in, huh?

[@JonoSchaferkotter]

I hope the Cloverfield series is doing this with "God Particle" possibly being an event film that will tie the first two together.

[@theTaNKisnowhere]

Hahaha, yeah I wonder how much of Cable's back-story DP2 is going to tell. I can't actually imagine both extremes working: One where they start to go into it but every time they try Deadpool gets bored and starts singing the words "Nobody cares" to the tune of Beethoven's 5th symphony; Or DP just spilling his entire back-story at top speed all in one breath. Which even then will be so long and complicated it'll probably kill him, then he'll come back to life, take a deep breath and spend the next finish the story.

[@metheboss4993]

Wow, now I feel really weird. I love comics, superhero comics included, but I like the more self-contained stories instead of following the long continuity stuff. Although I gotta admit, this did make me realize how even some of the great stand-alone superhero stories wouldn't have as much impact without knowledge of the bigger lore that surrounds the hero.

[@noagolden]

Events and retcons can be great, but they also have a down side : they are often tied to a status quo in comic books. They shake things up just to have everything be remotely the same as before. It sort of takes out the consequences of any given story. I'm a little bit worried about that happening to movies, but also stoked to see these big events going on, so... half-way happy ? ^^

[@IainMcClatchie]

You mentioned Star Trek but didn't talk about how that movie series has carried significant plot points between films. Spock's death and bringing him back is most of the plot of the third movie, for instance. The list goes on: Divergent, Lord of the Rings, Back to the Future, Harry Potter, the recent Planet of the Apes reboot, Rocky... oh, there's a friggin' Wikipedia page on this. Long-form multi-movie stories are very risky. John Carter, Dune, etc. This might actually be the basis of a good essay for you, talking about what can be learned from the failure of these intended series.

[@DavidRodriguez-ux5ye]

Iain McClatchie one thing you shall mention is that most of those films were based in books and they were basically a long story cut in pieces