Such an odd time to listen to this podcast as I'm in the same position on the other side, sort of. 13:24 I am in the position where I'm the technical one, and I am facing the realities of completely lacking people skills and suffering the consequences of that. So I must admit to myself that if there was management above or around me that lacked technical skills, but had the people skills, they would have benefitted better the whole company. Managing people is extremely valuable, because people have different skills. I am the fastest worker in the team, but because of my lack of managerial skils I can't benefit not only the team, but the whole company, so me being technical isn't valuable that much. What I'm trying to say is that I can absolutely recognise bad leadership and how good leadership doesn't necessitate knowing the technical ins and outs of a job, but being able to read people and understand how they work, how they fit in and how to leverage their skills for the benefit of both their individual roles and the whole. This is a separate skill than technical knowledge and I can see how I lack it by listening to the other side (and by also seeing bad management examples).