How do you recognize covert workplace bullying and what can be done about it? Quick Hits

[@luxpursuits]

There’s no walking around to mingle with coworkers when the bully has turned everyone against you

[@DrRobyn]

The truth in that breaks my heart. :-(

[@luxpursuits]

@@DrRobyn No doubt. Others know what the bully doing is wrong. They either enjoy it or are scared to speak up and be the next target.

[@DrRobyn]

@@luxpursuits Being the next target is a real thing. I have been in that position in a public setting. It wasn't fun. And you are right, all the other people in the waiting room just watched it happen. Only after the woman had been removed did they ask if I was okay. I was thinking - it's a little late for you to get involved now. If the 20ish people who had been there had all stood up to her it would not have escalated like it did.

[@luxpursuits]

@@DrRobyn And they are experts at turning the most friendly and nicest people into bullies. It is frightening to watch.

[@DrRobyn]

@@luxpursuits hmm that brings up an interesting question for me - what type of person joins a bully rather than standing up to them? That isn't the right wording for a Quick Hits conversation but I'm going to kick it around my brain.

[@meredithbarash5821]

For me, this echoes Narcissistic Abuse and my experiencing it in various types of environments whether it be the workplace, family, platonic or romantic relationships...in the end it feels like your back is up against the wall and helpless. When you take a step back, its practically stupefying and impressive how things like the manipulation play out so efficaciously and strategically with people who aren't completely cognizant of their manipulative abuse; that its not necessarily premeditated and yet its flawless.

[@DrRobyn]

"Not necessarily premeditated and yet its flawless." Wow that is so on point.

[@donnathedead7554]

So true. Even if you know it's happening, you are basically powerless to stop it because so many others are susceptible to the manipulation.

[@corm1000]

In my experience workplace bullying, usually consists of saying nasty things and then when the person gets mad, trying to pass it off as being jokes.

[@DrRobyn]

That is a common form of bullying. People on the narcissistic spectrum love saying others are "too thin skinned" and "can't take a joke." My response to that is - "It's not my responsibility to be so thick skinned that you can cut me and laugh while I bleed."

[@collinsfriend1]

or claimed to be the bullied one.

[@LN-pm5yl]

This was very validating to me bc I seem to be bullied quite frequently. I know that in several instances it was bc others felt threatened bc I am a dedicated worker. Other times arent so clear. I am always professional, polite and helpful. I have also felt like I was being hazed when starting jobs as well. I dont want to adopt the victim mindset - thatvis a valid point

[@DrRobyn]

Whenever I hear about someone being hazed it makes me cringe. Such an awful behavior. Good on you for not letting yourself slip into the victim mindset.

[@meredithbarash5821]

I've been dealing with the same exact thing for years and years and it feels like this enigma that remains unsubstantiated by concrete, plausible reasons. I keep thinking there must be something I'm doing to warrant this and I just wish I knew exactly what it was because how is it possible that this happens every time?

[@meredithbarash5821]

I also don't want to adopt the victim mindset but the truth is we are victims, we're experiencing it and of course it brings on distress or shame or feeling helpless. I apologize if this seems like I'm speaking for you but I'm fairly confident you may share the same sentiment when I say despite all of this, I do not want to turn into a bully myself and be someone I'm not in order to gain the respect and treatment I do deserve. I'm sorry for the novel-length comment and that you endure this; to say it sucks is an understatement

[@DrRobyn]

@@meredithbarash5821 There is always room for personal development. That said, we need to be really careful about gaslighting ourselves. Just because we have room to grow doesn't mean people are allowed to be manipulative, mean or passive-aggressive to us

[@coreyanderson7424]

Oh my goodness, thanks guys so much for discussing this! It's a big issue and few people really talk about it. It's probably the most common form of workplace abuse. I was harassed in this way and it was so hard to report it to my boss, even though my boss said I should, because of the way they do it. For example, she (the bully), would freak out on me and falsely accuse me of doing something wrong, that wasn't true. And she would say things that, if I were to report it, may look like I was the incompetent one. Even though, I wasn't doing what she was claiming, whilst attacking me. Very sneaky. But, that's harassment. Freaking out on someone like she did shouldn't be tolerated, but again, they'll do it in a way as though the target is questionable, they'll harass in a way that is designed to make the other worker look like a bad worker. And it's really stressful. I could list specific examples. But yeah, so hard.

[@DrRobyn]

I'm sorry that happened to you. It is so hard to report because when you do they gaslight you, which makes you look even more crazy. I hope you are in a better work environment now!

[@BillClinton228]

It seems like there's always a pattern... the bully usually has some sort of a status in the company, whether they are a long time trusted employee or manager and there is always a focus to make you look as bad as possible to other people in the company.

[@DrRobyn]

@@BillClinton228 There has to be some level of power for someone to bully. It can be explicit - they have a title or authority given to them by a bigger leader. Or implicit - the group/team sees them as a leader without any title. Grade school bullies are like that and I see it in the sports teams I work with as well.

[@c3909]

@@DrRobyn sometimes the best thing to do is to just leave in order to save your sanity. Especially when it is not about just one bully...no money in the world is worth our sanity and health..

[@Fourleafclover9]

Having convo and chatting to people in your face whom they wouldnt normally bother that much with, and when your around just to exclude you for the sheer sadistic pleasure of seeing you feel bad.

[@makaylahollywood3677]

I am a hard worker. I recently worked with a group in my devision- very covertly toxic. The job was temporary- I got rehired to a different floor where it is nontoxic. A few days ago the bully, her flying monkey ran into me, I said hello. They said, "do you want to come back to our group? smirk". I said, "I'm good". They immediately laughed. I wanted to laugh, but- these were adults, it was not kind, didn't feel good. Others in the building said, hello glad your back, nice to see you. These two employees had such a quick response other than a kind hello. Anyway it's a week after the run-in...it still on my mind. I "feel" the bully's comments. I will stay away, thank God I'm not in their group or on their floor.

[@DrRobyn]

So often people associate that kind of behavior with high school. But there are people who carry it into and throughout adulthood. I'm really glad you don't have to work with them directly and agree that staying as far away as possible is a good idea. It is too bad that the company allows it to happen.

[@CB-wq9wp]

There are alot of sociopaths in the workplace! They always seem to be 'haters', who are jealous of something about you: your looks, your marriage, your personality, you are better at the job than they are, you're a supervisor and they want to take your place, etc.

[@DrRobyn]

It is interesting to me that only about 1.2% of humans are sociopaths and yet we all seem to have worked with one at some point in our lives.

[@sab_1055]

It's sickening to see people advance their career by making others appear incompetent through gossip and lies. This bully is a coward who feels threatened and can't envision teamwork. I've given my notice having endured six months of this behavior being rewarded by inept leadership, and being consigned to a role that bores me. Knowing said bully now earns good money while I do without is just an irritating sidebar; I would've liked for us both to succeed.

[@DrRobyn]

I agree! That is insanely frustrating and happens WAY too often. Fingers crossed for you that you are given the space and support to thrive in your next position

[@DexFu]

Great discussion. I experience covert bullying and this video was eye opening. My team members would have meetings behind my back, ignore my questions, not be as hands on, and essentially set me up for failure.

[@DrRobyn]

Sadly that is a classic case of covert bullying. Not giving you the tools/information you need to do your job and then blaming you. I hope you are in a place that appreciates you now.

[@smoothiecutie2277]

@@DrRobyn. Absolutely on point.

[@setapart2serveministries]

Bottom guy on left is the bully. He can't even sit still and his whole being tells me he don't want to actually hear others explain workplace bullying 😅.

[@donnathedead7554]

That's some solid observational skills. He was the only one giving canned, borderline insulting advise, like just get out there. Like, he didn't even understand the topic. He's just assuming all managers hide in the offices all day or they wouldn't have this problem. Covert bullies are chameleons. I have seen people be just plain ugly to a new hire, consistently sweet as pie every time the boss is around, even if its every day. Realistically, a manager can't just babysit all day. I guess you could put up cameras or something but, that's about the only way you could do it.

[@EiziEizz]

More like the bottom right guy with the gold ring. He is reeking of haughty insincerity

[@2ch.thenazaritelifestyle]

@@donnathedead7554 That's probably why they made this video. Thanks for the reply.

[@setapart2serveministries]

@@EiziEizz LOl!!! After I watched it again, I said the same thing. They did this video for a reason and I believe it was to inform them about their Convert Bullying. Lol!

[@megandickerson886]

I picked up on that immediately

[@silent_whispers319]

Yup, left a job in which I was in for 7 years. I was purposefully fingerpointed to make me look incompetent by my Supervisor. She wanted submissive employees and I wouldn't play that card , so I quit. I knew for a fact I was being bullied!!

[@deliveryguy7402]

I got tired of workplace bullies, so at new jobs, the first thing I let everyone know about me is that I am heavily into guns, reloading my own ammo, and hunting small game. In the last six years, I've had no one bother me about anything. Even the boss only talks to me when he has to.

[@21350ctw]

😂😂

[@prepforlife4425]

definitely applicable in healthcare-- what a toxic environment it is. Im drained of all the pettiness and bad mouthing the staff are toward the manager and others etc. all. Then they act all professional and sucky when she (manager) is around . It's very concerning and makes one feel to question what they may say about you when not around. It's all pathetic, I have zero interest in their gossiping mouths. Boring people with pathetic agendas. Again they can be so subtle about things and when you're a sensitive, empath type person you have heightened awareness {being cautious to not become hypervigilant and reactive) to discern people but of course cannot call them out as they gaslight and say that isn't what was meant by .x,y,z..

[@DrRobyn]

That sounds like a super challenging environment. Office politics are exhausting.

[@meredithbarash5821]

And you can't necessarily walk away from it nor avoid it so you feel like your back is up against the wall and the distress and helplessness just builds and drains more and more. If workplaces actually understood and were cognizant of how much this sabotages their overall productivity and optimization (sadly not humanistic fallouts) but that lack of humanism within itself is at the root.

[@DrRobyn]

@@meredithbarash5821 What is interesting to me is that most individuals understand this if you talk to them one to one and yet somehow in organizations the idea of being a human and having reasonable conversations gets lost.

[@Annie-eq9ys]

Yep, happened to me and was let go last week. Grateful I’m no longer in that toxic workplace and know I have a better more rewarding job offer on the way. Thank you for validating.

[@DrRobyn]

Congratulations on getting out of a toxic place!

[@Ziaoe]

I had an actively unhelpful trainer. I had to go to HR repeatedly. I was bullied by my supervisor and the person who used to work for her. I eventually quit because the bullying was so severe. I had to reach out to other coworkers to learn how to do my job. The trainer who bullied me had been bullied herself.

[@DrRobyn]

Isn't it so sad when someone feels like "it happened to me so I am going to do it to you?" Healthy people think, "It happened to me so I'm going to make sure I never do it to anyone else." I'm glad you took care of yourself and got out of the situation.

[@c3909]

There's no excuse for the abuse. Even if he/she has been bullied. You've done the right thing to quit. You didn't quit your job but you've quit the toxic environment!

[@theFado96]

I've experienced what's called mobbing for pretty much the first year of my current job. There was this person that would purposely try to make me look bad in front of others and tell me that I was not doing my job and I should quit. Worst thing he did: I was away from the office for a few minutes and when I came back, he told be to lift the cover of the printer and look at the scanner glass. On it, I saw his ID and driving licence. He accused me of stealing them and copying them to do shady stuff with them. To this day I'm not sure what happened to the guy, one day he just randomly didn't show up and I was told he didn't work there anymore. Seven years later, I'm trying to leave this job because it got awful but that's another story.

[@DrRobyn]

Oof! That is straight up evil. I wish you all the best in finding a great place to work where they value you and your skills.

[@carolspencer6915]

Witnessed and experienced bullying in the workplace for ten years. Two years ago I found my voice and spoke out. I'm still waiting for the mess to be resolved and cease growing. Has been and continues to be a living nightmare. NHS needs to wake up to this systemic all encompassing harm. 💜 Has been more than hard work.

[@DrRobyn]

10 years! Yikes! I'm glad you found your voice and I know that sometimes that makes it worse for awhile. But two years of worse, that's a long time. I have done some training/coaching in the NHS. I hear you. Good luck.

[@mosaicowlstudios]

Do you work for the NHS? Or are you asking that they start providing support to the targets and addressing the health outcomes that result from workplace bullying? Asking because I work in the US Healthcare system (I'm in Admin), and we have a HUGE bullying problem WITHIN. I similarly found my voice, only about a year ago. It's been a very long war with multiple battles (wins and losses). But I'm continuing to stand up and do the right thing by speaking about it as I see it happening. Last week, I told my boss that it had been a year since I first brought it up, but just the day before there was yet again another instance of bullying (the target left the bully's office and vowed to quit on the spot before I asked them to talk to the bully's supervisor first--they ended up deciding to stay to see things through, this bully's target is a STRONG person). I do not believe it will actually improve, so I told my supervisor that I would be going to the facility director that day to ask about a reassignment. I then told her that it was sort of like a "race", in a way. Because I will either find an alternative placement or she will find a way to definitely stop the bullying, and one of those things is going to happen first. We'll see what happens. I know one thing for sure. Multiple people have left before me, and people will keep quitting if a solution isn't found to actually stop the bullying. More than likely, if I step away, the primary target of the bully will also leave shortly after (because I was their main advocate--I always had their back). I'm worried that if I step away then they will drown without a support system there to stand by them. But, it may be what the office needs for the supervisor to finally recognize the problem.

[@carolspencer6915]

@@mosaicowlstudios Hello Yeah eighteen years as a Mental Health Nurse. Truth is a difficult thing. Bullying gaslighting a big problem for sure. My daughter has Health problems including alcoholism and refuses to access the service she needs due to the service she requires being the department I've worked in fit for

[@mosaicowlstudios]

​@carolspencer6915 I'm sorry to hear about your daughter. Addiction/alcoholism is a very, very hard struggle, and the available systems in place to go for help often seem to be counterproductive to real healing and progress. It can feel crippling. My thoughts are with you and your family ❤❤ Recovery is possible, never give up hope. The similarities between our work experience keep adding, my goodness. I am also in Behavioral Health, at a State-owned facility. One thing that's nice about it being a government job is that I'm well-protected from being fired for speaking out. However, because it is a government job it is also seemingly IMPOSSIBLE for the agency/organization to enact any meaningful consequences on the bully. It's been a nightmare for a year, and I wouldn't be surprised if we also made it to two years without yet a definitive solution.

[@whermany]

How quickly the conversation turned to blame the victim. Great job.

[@BelleAhoy]

Mr. Wiggins seemed to be the main one doing this to me. I didn’t see the others do this.

[@donnathedead7554]

@@BelleAhoy I agree, one bad apple doesn't spoil the bunch. The others made good points. Dr. Robyn even pushed back on his bs a bit by mentioning a book that talked about how open-door policies backfire. His approach just makes him more vulnerable to be manipulated but, his ego doesn't let him see it.

[@royalkatherine]

Mr. Wiggins seemed the least informed and educated about covert bullying. I got second hand embarrassment for him when he answered the question of what is covert bullying with stating the definition would depend on how one defines bullying. Didn't even answer the question and used all those words. If he had done the least bit of research he would know that DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender), blame-shifting, and gaslighting are a common tactics used against victims. He was straight up cringe.

[@JimmyJaxJellyStax]

Great insights, this issue is so common and I personally think it's a growing phenomenon because society is getting more sensitive at a biological level with less exercise and physical activity that used to detox and destress our mind. Remote work isn't safe either, the bullying can become more private and away from witnesses and possibly slower to detect in meetings because of the added communication ambiguity (can't tell who's looking at who, etc). Too often I've seen managers also uncomfortable with confrontation and the subtle bullying occurs most around the avoidant management. Keep solid documentation of incidents (whether certain or possible - document anyways) and bring it up with management or confront the bully themselves. Having quick concise boundary responses is healthy in general but especially direct and very stoic with the bullies that may honestly lack the compassion and concern in the first place - require more effort to communicate with. The complexity of insecurities being projecting is very much involved too and usually insecurities from both sides but consistent abuse can reveal the truth in who's blatantly oppressing (whether aware or not - likely somewhat aware) compared to just misunderstandings. I love the idea of repeating what someone just said to you when in doubt - especially if it's a big meeting. Good little pause for reflection on how rude something just was, especially if they whispered it. Touches back on their own psychology, puts the focus on them, and confirms what was said is indeed a problem. "You're being too sensitive" - "The harassment policy here disagrees"

[@DrRobyn]

I want to call out specifically a really good point you made there - keep documentation even if you aren't sure what is happening is bullying. It is better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

[@c3909]

Agree 💯 but sometimes working as a remote might be even better in order to be able to collect evidence. You're in your safe space . But I think in these situations the best thing to do is not to deal with ugly people like this and create an escaping plan in order to quit that environment and find a healthier one.

[@c3909]

@@DrRobyn there times when you work physically there that they don't even allow you to have a piece of paper at the desk. I think this is already a huge red flag on how unhealthy that environment is.

[@c3909]

@@DrRobyn and it also shows you how premeditated their cruel actions are.

[@c3909]

@@DrRobyn it shows that they know exactly what they're doing and that they don't even care.

[@tanyakrueger4945]

You are 💯 correct about open door…while the concept is for access to leadership, it can be abused so the challenge is for leaders to understand the source before jumping to conclusions.

[@savage_skirt5386]

problem is that now a lot of jobs are fully remote, and so you are isolated, with limited access to upper management or the rest of your team, so your bully, which a lot of times is your direct supervisor, gets to set the narrative about you and your work. this has been happening to me. my direct supervisor undermines me in any/all ways: talks over me in meetings, counters every point i make, bad talks me to upper management, doesn't invite me to key meetings, leaves me out of projects, and blocks any advancement opportunities.

[@DrRobyn]

I agree that being remote allows bullies to hide and get away with bad behavior. I hope that you will have the opportunity to find something new with a good boss who appreciates you. 💛

[@emilysnyder4857]

I was bullied by a supervisor and eventually spoke to her supervisor because I felt comfortable going to him. Then came an over emphasis on my going through proper channels and policing who I was talking too. I'm still in counseling because of workplace bullying. It instilled in me a sense of nihilism about work because the worker feels unsupported by the management and work culture. I've always been the one trying to go above and beyond and try to grow in skills at jobs... But in a toxic workplace you learn to hide your light to minimize engaging the bullies. Why do good work if it earns you more abuse? I wonder how many people who were a good fit for the company end up leaving because of toxicity from bullies?

[@savage_skirt5386]

yep@@emilysnyder4857

[@DrRobyn]

@@emilysnyder4857 Sadly I think that happens with shocking regularity. Hence the saying, "People don't quit companies. They quit bosses." I'm sorry that happened to you.

[@agak61]

Bullies are a huge problem in Finance/Accounting jobs. Huge !

[@DrRobyn]

Why do you think that is? And - Do you think they are a bigger problem in that industry than in others?

[@agak61]

@@DrRobyn Because they have upper hand on others. That’s how just Corporations are structured.

[@DrRobyn]

@@agak61 It makes me both sad and angry that the humans who make up those corporations not only allow but benefit from that structure.

[@999timepass]

​@@agak61 Agree. They bully staff from other departments like IT, all the time.

[@agak61]

@@999timepass oh I know ;) Because they all think they are Gods

[@laurajane4806]

For me, it was like for 5 years everyone loved me. One day the sociopath arrived. Once she was there for about 6 months people began saying I was causing tension. One day I left the office in high regard and by Monday everyone was silent with a cold shoulder. I still have no idea what fabrications she said to them.

[@DrRobyn]

Oof. That's rough. No matter how many times I hear stories like that, I am always disapointed about how badly humans treat each other. I'm sorry you had to deal with that.

[@ClutchSituation]

The worst bullying I've experienced is when the top leaders of the organization were bullies, and delegated bullying actions to their subordinates. If the subordinates didn't do it, they were under threat. Of course, that isn't leadership. It is an example of the absolute worst thing that can happen to an organization. By the way, the pandemic "outed" a lot of people who lacked the skills to be effective leaders. It is difficult to hide skill deficiencies under duress. When people get insecure, they bully others.

[@coreyanderson7424]

If a reasonable person, most people, who were treated the way you just were, by the bully, would also perceive the behavior as hostile, rude, aggressive, insulting (non constructive criticism), and perceive it as likely intentional, then there you go. It's common sense. If it looks like bullying it is.

[@DrRobyn]

I read this last night and I wondered to myself, is bullying that easy to spot? It made me think about a time I had created a personal boundary that made my mother very angry. She called me a bully among other things. I don't believe I was a bully. I simply wasn't allowing her to behave in the way she felt entitled. So is bullying always easy to spot? In that case, my mom and I stood on opposite sides of who was the bully and who was being bullied. What do you think?

[@BillClinton228]

@@DrRobyn My supervisor did not want me to be hired even at the interview stage as he would tell the manager that I didnt perform as well on the assesment as the other guy they were going to hire. That should've been a red flag for me and I shoud've turned down the job but they were offering alot of money. When I started working, my supervisor would be sure to comment on how poor my work was in front of the manager. At the same time though, he would praise and encourage and help another person who started the same time as me. My supervisor was considered to be very high performing employee in the company and when I tried to tell the manager what was happening to me my experience was brushed off as a misunderstanding and my manager started to micromanage me. All of a sudden I was treated as though I was the problem, my manager moved me from one project to another almost on a weekly basis which didnt give me enough time to familiarize myself with any of the work. Then one day they asked us to install software on our computer that would monitor our mouse and keyboard movements. THat was the last straw and I quit. My supervisor never had to get me fired or cause a big fuss, he just had to plant seeds of ideas in my managers head about how bad of an employee I was meanwhile ensuring he would do as little training as possible so it would look like I was incompetent to do my work.

[@DrRobyn]

@@BillClinton228 I'm sorry that happened to you! Covert bullying is manipulative and harmful. I'm glad you are out of that situation now. And as an upside, you learned how to spot a problem early on and won't accept a job with that kind of boss again. I know that doesn't seem like a very big win right now, but it will serve you well for the rest of your life.

[@c3909]

@@DrRobyn I'm pretty sure you have the answer to this question 😌

[@mosaicowlstudios]

Yes, Dr. Ross. The targets of bullies have a no-win situation: 1. You stand up to the bully, but then the bully considers that a sort of "declaration of war". 2. You decide to stay silent, but then it just keeps happening to you. I told my boss this, and then asked her if she's ever been bullied. It was clear that the answer was no. I'm hoping my stand against our office bully is opening our supervisor's eyes.

[@w3n33dam1racl3]

I'm in the military and I recently filed a complaint against this E6 who was covertly bullying me after I told him 2x not to disrespect me and approach me with the respect he wants. Respect is earned not given. We almost came to blows.

[@DrRobyn]

It is so frustrating to me when people with seniority think it is okay to be abusive towards the people they are supposed to be mentoring and leading. Good luck. I hope things work out in your favor.

[@peacem351]

know someone's button and know what triggers you - definitely what my colleague is doing

[@DrRobyn]

It is SO frustrating when someone figures out how to push our buttons and does it on purpose.

[@Hayley1518]

I work in a salon with all females and I'm being covertly bullied. I was one of the last people hired. My boss is close friends with half of my coworkers. I have overheard my coworkers talking about me. I've overheard them refer to me as what's her face. I've seen them look at me and give each other looks. I don't know what I've done to be treated this way. I'm ghosted in the salon. I don't get greeted when l enter the salon as my coworkers do. I believe one of them decided not to like me and they all followed in suit. There is nothing i can do about it.

[@DrRobyn]

That is called relational aggression. I wrote about it happen on sports teams in my book Stop the Drama. I'm sorry you're dealing with that. I know it's a miserable way to live.

[@user-qv7vi2ls6j]

My situation is not a jealousy issue at all. I feel badly for anyone on this channel that is suffering and trying to navigate the office supervisor bully who aplogizes only to slam the fists into his desk again.

[@DrRobyn]

An apology that does not result in a change in behavior is not an apology at all. It is simply saying, "Stop being mad so I can get on with my day."

[@deen2400]

The core problem is having to work with people. If the people are not trained or are aware of how to work their co workers, then yeah you’re gonna have problems. Businesses just can’t afford to make the assumption that all people know how to work with or treat others (not in this day and age for sure). As far as “tattling”, what else are they gonna do? Isn’t it the leader’s/supervisor’s/manager’s job to do the “hard” things, the confrontational things?

[@DrRobyn]

It is interesting to me how so many businesses assume that everyone is good at communication and conflict resolution. And yes, "leaders" should be better equipped and responsible to deal with confrontation - they aren't. But they should be. Humans are a strange lot for sure.

[@1934jackson]

I agree with this. Often times businesses don’t take the time to set the standard & expectation of how employee should interact with each other. Also companies don’t take the time to teach their leadership what a leader should do in the scenarios that are happening in the workplace. There is a lot of assumption corporate America. This unfortunately what leads to the situation where most employees don’t know what they’re supposed to say to coworkers and then just start saying anything, and that leads to inappropriate topics. Most leaders don’t know how they’re supposed to handle these situations while supporting their team.

[@confusedbugger]

Cool conversation topic. I think in order to tackle the problem, you should first identify the types of work place bullying dynamics, because they may each need unique approaches: 1. Boss to worker 2. Peer to peer 3. Casual group bullying/Accepted level of tolerance culturally for toxic behavior 4. Romantic office relationship I think 2 and 4 would be difficult for bosses to detect. For 1, 2 and 4, the solution would require the victims to be emboldened to report or confront the behavior, and the corporate culture would have to have a real solution for restoring a safe work environment. I've experienced bullying from a boss, and sabatoge from peers. I'm still Jenny from the block, though. When my boss bullied me, I threatened to quit. When my peer sabaotged me, I pulled the logs and proved the foul play to everyone involved. But a lot of my coworkers aren't able to stand up to their bosses, not everyone is confrontational. Some people are very terrified to lose their jobs. It's as much about emboldening good workers as it is about sniffing out bad behavior.

[@DrRobyn]

Good for you for standing up for yourself! I also appreciate that you are self-aware enough to realize not everyone has the ability to do that. I'm thinking the next video I do on this topic might be how to handle when we see a peer being bullied at work.

[@c3909]

@@DrRobyn Please do it ❤️

[@c3909]

@@DrRobyn knowledge is power!

[@c3909]

Toxic work environment relationship/toxic intimate relationships: LOVE BOMBING (when you're new but not always)-DEVALUATION-DISCARD (no matter if induced or not). The best thing to do is to take a look at the patterns. ❤️

[@user-qv7vi2ls6j]

If you are a leader on a team then it is your duty as a leader to illustrate to your team that you can sucessfully lead the team. if you continously express anger towards the same individual on that team over ans over, this could result in the team getting distracted which could result in the team not being an overall success due to your focus not being on the entire team.

[@77HeIsLove_woot]

The last comment made just undid the whole conversation. "Its not our job to fix that." The whole point of this panel is for you to be aware and "try" to fix it! Yes? Everyone knows it happens. This lady wants to continue to ignore it.

[@paullogeman9189]

Thank you for a wonderful and informative presentation. This discussion focused on critical issues of definition and identifying the topology of bullying in the workplace. I would add that creating an effective workplace environment should also include encouraging others to also recognize and report the problem despite possible negative consequences.

[@DrRobyn]

The risk of being a whistleblower make that SO hard. I agree with you in principle though.

[@mosaicowlstudios]

Thanks for mentioning the Military, Stu. The problem I'm having at work is that the supervisor has a military background (she herself is not the bully), and so she is reluctant to take it seriously. But, another person in the office is literally vomiting before coming to work and having to deal with the bully. The bully is directly underneath the supervisor.

[@DrRobyn]

Do you think people who have endured bullying can be less likely to do something about it when they see it happening to other people?

[@mosaicowlstudios]

​@DrRobyn That is such a good question. I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer. I think it depends on their own understanding of the behavioral mechanisms behind bullying and their own sense of empathy and self-awareness (which may depend on age and/or time and their own previous experiences with conflict resolution or the experiences of others they learned from--parents, other influential figures). I think it's easy for a person to have the mindset that "if I was able to endure a bully, then anyone should be able to--and if they can't then they are weak". But I think a lot of this mindset is perpetuated by a lack of understanding of the behavioral mechanisms behind bullying and especially the behavioral responses that are specifically aimed toward avoiding accountability. If you don't really understand it, it's easy to pass it off even if you experienced it yourself. But others, like myself, know what it is like to be bullied, and know what it is like to feel like you have no options to stop it. I also lost a family member after he took his own life after being bullied at his job (he was 58-years-old), so I've spent an unusual amount of time learning about EXACTLY what it is that leads people to bully others. So, I think it depends. But again, I'm a lowly hospital admin with no licensure or credentials, who works mostly on Performance Improvement and other administrative/data-related tasks.

[@DrRobyn]

@@mosaicowlstudios I think you provided a brilliant and informative response. I asked what you thought, and you shared it. Thank you.

[@breaks3085]

This actually does exist, ive been getting bullied in the gym, i am just a member, the personal trainers told All the members not to talk to me, cos people got envious, since i have better genetics than them an i could outperform them all, so the whole gym have cut me off especially a certain age group from 18 up to 35. But i knew this woman way before this started happening she's in her early 50s an we were talking alot cos she just came back from holiday, the personal trainers didn't know we knew eachother. An when the members saw me an her talking, they had a pissed look on their faces to say their plan got Ruined, dirty cowards

[@DrRobyn]

Wow. Thanks for sharing your story.

[@glasshousefuture6836]

Except for when you're being workplace bullied by the leader

[@DrRobyn]

It is a no-win situation if you are working for a bully. That would be a good topic for me to cover.

[@marcboozman]

I'm a somm who has lived in Europe, Manhattan, and Silicon Valley. The worst bullies I ever met are a celebrity chef and his juvenile underlings. It's All About Him.

[@JHixon-bi8ok]

Bullying is any act that threatens or negatively affects your professional reputation, or negatively affects your ability to perform your job, or threatens or negatively affects your personal reputation, or unnecessarily threatens your physical safety, or any combination of these. Covert? In my experience, most covert bullying is female toward female. Males are more overt about their bullying…since it is more socially acceptable that men bully others. It is not considered socially acceptable for women to be bullies; therefore, they are more covert about it.

[@DrRobyn]

You are not wrong that there is a cultural norm for women to be more likely to use backstabbing and manipulation (I wrote a book about it called “Stop the Drama”). That said, it situations where men are not allowed to engage in intimidation and direct bullying, they will also use covert bullying to get their way.

[@richardpeel6056]

In the managers office the supervisors used to skive, they'd be eating all day breakfast all day. Occasionally a supervisor would step out onto the balcony over the factory. He would be waiting for a line to break down, anyone working wouldn't have time took look up and check if he were there. The catcher on the line that had stopped would sort through the work on his table and catch up. He'd then hand tape damaged packs and put them back into the system, then he'd help the bagger bag up and strap stuff in mail bags. Only then would he look up to see what had actually stopped the line. The supervisor was waiting for the exact moment the catcher looked up to shout at him across the factory for time wasting. The real skivers would stand and lounge behind machinery unseen from above. The supervisor would have to stand and watch for up to 10 minutes to catch someone who had caught up wasting one second, that must count as bullying. We sometimes used elastic bands in the factory, before my time someone had been struck in the eye by an elastic band and taken to hospital, flicking elastic bands at people was made a sacking offense as well being a criminal assault. One of the line operators would organise elastic band gangs targeting one person, you'd be hit on the back of the neck by an elastic band every 20 seconds or so, for the entire shift, all week, you'd have to kick them under the machines as you couldn't stand on the floor properly, the supervisors would join in . If you told the manager you would be called a liar. One person had a nervous breakdown. I got sacked for saying that ending bullying was the best thing a company can do, this was considered bringing the company into disrepute. At the time George W Bush and Tony Blair were telling people to discuss bullying, there had been too many suicides.

[@DrRobyn]

That is both heartbreaking and infuriating. I'm sorry you had to deal with that and I can't believe humans treat each other so badly. I hope you found somewhere else to work where you were appreciated.

[@richardpeel6056]

@@DrRobyn This particular bully used to turn the lights off when people were in the toilets, I had to outline the urinals, sinks and exit in glow in the dark paint so you could use and leave the toilets in complete darkness. We added letters to the hostile and indecent graphite in the toilets to turn it into harmless gibberish, this made the management repaint the walls. I am deaf in one ear and I am and was a first aider, I have saved a number of lives, the main bully organised a group to repeatedly call my name at about the level of noise in the room. If you are partially deaf this is particularly disturbing as your hearing hyper concentrates on picking up a signal. A supervisor was sitting on a pile of pallets laughing at my distress, he later denied ever having been there. The main bully would get a pat on the back for running his line fast while his catcher would get into trouble for making sorting errors. We had sodium lighting with deffusers to stop glare, the deffusers had removed above the packing area making it more difficult to read text through a layer of clear plastic.

[@DrRobyn]

That sounds like absolute crazy town! Yikes! @@richardpeel6056

[@Christ_Is_Life10-10]

Bully’s do exactly what they accuse innocent team members of doing. “ she is lazy” all the while gossiping with other and scrolling through the phone. I’ve been there 3 months and have had team leaders yell at me in front of customers and other team members on a regular basis before I told, another team member threatened me and the team leader did nothing! Now he quit cuz he didn’t want to take responsibility. No one talks to me. When I do something well r show improvement “crickets”. But yelled at for silly “errors” that have no impact on the bottom line.

[@DrRobyn]

Yelling is so unprofessional. I am shocked that is still tolerated in today's work environments. But I have heard from enough people on the topic to know that bullying in all forms is alive and well at work. I'm sorry you are dealing with that.

[@mosaicowlstudios]

Something interesting is happening today. I've been standing up to a bully at work for a little over a year. About six months ago, as a part of a whole album of songs, I wrote and recorded a song about Workplace Bullying. I'm handing it out to everyone in the company today. I'm not sure what's going to happen. I am sure that if the bully person hears it, they will be LIVID. I've already warned my boss (also their boss) that I will be doing this and that if this person is going to continue to refuse to sit down and take part in a mediation meeting (it's been recommended by HR twice and the bully has refused both times), then I didn't want to hear a damn word about the song. But I know she's going to be LIVID. I'm well liked across the company, and well respected by higher-ups. I am certain I cannot be punished or reprimanded for this. I'm very curious how it's going to go today. Wish me luck.

[@DrRobyn]

Wow! Good luck! That sounds bold and disruptive. Please come back and let us know how it goes and what kind of fallout happens.

[@mosaicowlstudios]

​@DrRobyn Well, I did it. I attached a small Valentine card and a candy sucker to each album I handed out, to make certain with my actions that this was a personal expression (plus on the top of the back cover it's clear in writing that these are my own opinions and I'm not representing our facility or any other facility). I received some good feedback from a few people (someone even emailed to say that particular song was their favorite), and so far zero negative feedback. I expect more feedback tomorrow. I'll definitely let you know if something changes, but so far I've heard nothing bad about it. I had been concerned that it would be disruptive. My only conclusion is that the bullying (ridiculing people in front of others, shouting, sabotaging others' work, etc.) Is what is truly disruptive and if none of that had been happening in the first place then the song wouldn't be seen as disruptive whatsoever. Why has the bullying been acceptable, if this is not? I'll let you know if anything changes.

[@DrRobyn]

@@mosaicowlstudios thanks for the update! Continued good luck with the response. And just for the record, bullying should never be acceptable. But for some reason lots of “leaders” ignore it. Perhaps because they don’t have the conflict resolution skills to address it.

[@mosaicowlstudios]

@DrRobyn Hello hello! Two weeks later, and still no negative repercussions. At all. I'm honestly a little surprised, but pleased. I hate conflict and would rather avoid it, although I was fully prepared to defend the album and song to anyone who questioned it. I think telling my boss ahead of time was a good move. The bully may have even complained to our boss about it, but if so, I wouldn't know because I've heard none of it repeated back to me. Perfect. One of the things I told my boss was that for as long as the bully was refusing to take part in a supervised mediation to discuss behaviors and the resulting effects on the shared environment, then I didn't want to hear a damn word about the song. And that the bully has two other choices: they could choose to not be so concerned with what other people might be thinking about them, or they could choose to alter and modify their own behavior to be nothing like the behavior discussed in the song. So far, so good. Two weeks out.

[@DrRobyn]

@@mosaicowlstudios That sounds like about as good an outcome as you could have hoped. Congratulations! I hope your coworkers liked the song too. Thanks for coming back to update us!

[@julietten5614]

Yes, it is your job as a manager/boss to ensure the adequate training is provided, the compony policies are not violated, the difficult people are not abusing power. The componiez who puts it all on newbies, end up with high turnover and low productiviry.

[@DrRobyn]

Isn't it interesting how high turnover never seems to be a red flag for the management?

[@8910d]

There's a kid's book called "my secret bully". Has happened to me too.

[@DrRobyn]

It is sad how many stories there are of children and adults being bullied

[@wileyann9449]

Worked in a eye clinic and the rep came with new glasses. I was working in the back room and heard the other employees engaging in choosing and trying on the glasses but I hadn’t been invited to join in. Wouldn’t have known If I hadn’t heard them. Lots of things little things like this happened on a daily basis. The manager never wanted to interview me, said I was overqualified but the owners wife somehow got my resume. Interview was awkward and I should never taken the job because the manger did everything she could to prove I didn’t belong.

[@DrRobyn]

That sounds miserable. As someone mentioned here in the comments - no amount of pay is worth your mental health. It might be time to look for something else.

[@wileyann9449]

@@DrRobyn yes thanks! I left and went to take care of my grandma, she is 96. I’m going to be a considering any red flags when getting hired in the future and I’m very interested in the culture at the workplace. Makes a huge difference.

[@Fourleafclover9]

Good luck im in same boat excluded a bit think its often comes from jealousy of something you have

[@wileyann9449]

@@Fourleafclover9 sorry to hear that. I got out of there recently. Was in a roommate situation and a work situation at same time. Now I’m taking care of my grandma for awhile. The only thing I can think of is that the manager and I were the same age a few months apart. She seemed to like to keep the women working there about the same age as her daughters.

[@julieb8668]

The military guy has it wrong and perhaps that shouldn’t be surprising.

[@timetraveller717]

What to do if you are not invited to meetings and as a result do not have the necessary information you need for your work? I tried to discuss it with my co-workers but they are gaslighting me by saying that it comes to them as a surprise and they do not see anything wrong. One of the colleagues advised me to ask him for assignments once I made up my mind what I wanted to do… Oh God, how crazy is that, I was given an assignment from my boss and I worked on it with everyone else until I got shut from all sources of information… And now that guy is telling me I need to ask him. I asked him who he was in the corporate hierarchy that he assumed such authorities regarding allocating tasks and assignments because I thought it was my supervisor and manager, and he told me he did not recognise any hierarchies , he’s his own boss and kind of gave me that look of assessment which men sometimes give to women…I can’t discuss it with my manager because with covert bullying it’s hard to produce evidence.

[@DrRobyn]

When I was in a similar situation, nothing I did made it better. I finally just had to find a different job. As you said, there is no evidence of covert bullying so it is impossible to prove. I hope you are able to find a job where they are thankful to have you.

[@christinamorales6887]

Talk about gaslighting in the workplace

[@lisawilson4332]

Thank you!

[@TheGodOfGematria]

This isn't very legal advice I'll give but wiretapping your toxic workplace and telling your manager a few weeks or months in is great. Tell them to go tell the CEO/owner what they did and if they don't they'll hear the samples in an email.

[@blazethealaskanmalamute4633]

I had a manager that would tell us to get with your manager if you think you need more training……after 6 weeks of training….. I felt like I was missing something I was supposed to be asking for but not sure specifically what. Even when asking this manager for cpr training & other things needed, was never provided. This same manager was my neighbor who talked into getting a job there & fired me 9 months later. Kept telling me to communicate with coworkers, I got fired for gossip 😂🤷‍♀️

[@DrRobyn]

That sounds challenging! If you don't know what you don't know you can't ask for training. Hopefully you have landed in a job that is a better fit for you.

[@user-qv7vi2ls6j]

If your wanting your certified nurse training cert go after your goal dont let a bully stop you, take a course online or at your local community college where there are trained professionals. Wishing you the best of Luck. The Am Red Cross has CPR classes too.

[@user-qv7vi2ls6j]

I was trying to say CNA cert

[@TheRVSN]

7:12 Distributed (remote) workplaces do not prevent from meeting and discussing issues.

[@TheRVSN]

Anyway, bullying is a training for animals based on innate instincts and reflexes. You are basically treated like an animal. Normal physiological reaction is stress: raised adrenaline, high vitamin C consumption; roughed movements etc. People loose ability of doing work requiring much of intellectual capabilities. Whatever the objectives of the "trainer". You have to maintain control of important processes, reassess your own objectives, make decision about the "trainer" and take initiative to make you safe. Remember that you cannot rely on other people (boss, team mates etc.). Of course the management might be interested in getting you out of the job so they plan and execute bullying. If they hope to increase your work performance this way - no doubt they are social idiots.

[@Unkn0wn1133]

If someone has a voice disorder that is a neurological condition, and coworkers comment “youre so quiet” or how it makes them nervous that the person is quiet in front of everyone is this bullying?

[@DrRobyn]

I think it depends on intent. In the very least it is thoughtless. They might think they are just making an observation

[@jen-cy6wj]

I have had this happen to me. Then when I raised my voice I was accused of yelling all the time

[@adaptercrash]

Inappropriate reporting that's a reflection of the company and the co-workers that puts you on the line.. managers don't do serious research the company could get fined and the employee could get charged.... regardless if they have work place policies and each is different...they have federal policies at the same time since its funded... that can bypass their policies... and they have all these workers I don't have time to communicate I think that's a problem the work will get done and we are just trying to exploit people and their position. That sounds fair. What can be done about it? Head office is coming now and I am out of here soon. Now they keep bothering me about some weird online training that's irrelevant to the position that won't let me finish. I think if we just not talk to each other. It would be way easier. And I did asbestos remediation for 6 months and we never had to communicate aside from training and just for fun.

[@DrRobyn]

That sounds like a lot. Best of luck in getting out and finding something better!

[@TheBananaBoba]

Carol, Maggie, Gabriel and Rick Grimes?

[@user-qv7vi2ls6j]

Isolated,humilited and embarassed and hurt to sum it up

[@DrRobyn]

Those are great words to describe how it feels to be the target of a bully. Thank you for sharing them.

[@ooooo18758]

Wiggins is clearly a bully​@@DrRobyn

[@DrRobyn]

@@ooooo18758 what causes you to say so?

[@ooooo18758]

@@DrRobyn he is annoyed during the talk. He blames the victim.

[@blitzkrieg6872]

There is nothing "covert" about it. If it is being noticed at all, it is not covert. Let's stop minimizing.

[@DrRobyn]

We are using "covert" to mean leadership can ignore it or can't see it. It is clearly not covert to the person being bullied.

[@lloydrobertevans]

What like in old cab dev or kontoor you mean yeah you what

[@lloydrobertevans]

Sorry, don't target people's families like mine, but others do, isn't that right? You're flyingmonkeys

[@liawheeler1975]

What if your boss is the narc

[@DrRobyn]

If your boss is narcissistic you're best course of action is to find a new job. There is no way to change or manage a person like that. They will abuse you until you are used up and then fire you. I speak from experience

[@smoothiecutie2277]

@@DrRobyn. Yes. Yes. And yes.

[@jsmithsemper4848]

I wanna know why folks think that their workplaces or their teams are great enough to warrant any kind of abusive behavior in the first place. Like y’all are taking shit to extremes over…. This place & these people??? 😂 ooooook.

[@DrRobyn]

I know it is really easy to judge people from the outside. I would ask you to notice the assumptions you are making. Trauma and grooming will cause people to make choices that go against their best interest and seem completely nonsensical from the outside. Count it as a blessing if that is something you can't understand. 💛

[@jsmithsemper4848]

@@DrRobyn what I’m saying is people, who are clueless about MANY THINGS & who’s workplace is an obviously toxic shit show, still find time to go around bullying others when they could DEFINITELY stand to focus on bettering themselves or their surroundings instead, to make themselves & the places worth the trouble in the first place. As in, if you’re bullying someone simply for having their own perspectives about stuff, then what are you seriously doing with your life? And if the places & the people ARE worthy of bullying, then what makes them think that bullying behavior is adding to the place/people? Is it worth it bc these incidents often tear apart people & places apart, when they could’ve been resolved in a responsible & respectful manner. Bullying can degrade the places & people. Let me give you an example. I work for an amazing company, Panera. I’m not paid much but it’s the going rate for my particular job. The benefits are great & I genuinely enjoy what I do. But my experience went sour when I encountered 2 bullies. That were threatening physical violence over being asked to stop arguing over minutiae. This was & still is unacceptable by any company’s standards. Yet without witnessing it firsthand management was slow to act. Until they encountered me & my fuzzy teeth. Management finally let them go & every coworker I have has stated out of their own mouths, how much better the environment is & that they no longer dread coming to work. This is happening all over the place all the time. So please don’t make assumption about ME. BECAUSE I KNOW ALL ABOUT IT DOC.

[@DrRobyn]

@@jsmithsemper4848 No assumptions here. Thanks for sharing your story.

[@jsmithsemper4848]

@@DrRobyn right. PLENTY OF ASSUMPTIONS are made by you telling me to notice myself being judgmental. I was NOT JUDGING by asking a valid question & you made the assumption that I wasn’t speaking from experience. Get it right!

[@DrRobyn]

@@jsmithsemper4848 Are you mad about a conversation about bullying in the workplace? What tone should be interpreted from "Like y’all are taking shit to extremes over…. This place & these people??? 😂 ooooook." My comment wasn't really for you per se. It was for someone reading your comment who finds themselves in a job where they are being bullied and they don't know how to get out. That said, if you are 100% certain that you are right and I am wrong in this conversation, I'm okay with that.

[@OK-wb1dy]

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