How long did it take Joseph Smith to translate the Book of Mormon? Ep. 136

[@Mcmj-ot4dt]

Faith and beliefs is my favorite segment on this channel

[@AngelicHelper]

Yup

[@jonbaker476]

So I was raised a member of the church but still, this is my experience with the BOM and reveleation: Long story short, I fasted for four days without food and then prayed about the BOM, and the answer I received was incredible (this happened about a year ago now). However, before continuing, I want to make it clear that I don't really KNOW if this was true or not, or if it actually happened. Well, the story happened but idk if it was real or my imagination, but it sure felt real, and the way it made my heart burn was incredible. But anyway, after praying about it, I felt absolutely nothing at first. Then after I went to sleep (still fasting), I had an incredibly vivid dream where I was standing in an open field surrounded with tall blades of pale white grass that gave off a slight glow. There was nothing else to be seen in any direction. Then the next thing I knew, I felt this strange feeling inside my chest, which was kind of like a strange burning/vibration sensation, and as soon as I felt it, my mind somehow formed it into words in my head. The words my mind formed were something along the lines of :"Jon, for your diligent pursuit of truth, I award you with the knowledge you seek." Since it wasn't actual words I heard, I can only say that it was something along those lines. I then felt the need to turn around and I saw an extremely tall man standing there with bare hands and bare feet (I don't recall if there were holes in the palms or not, I didn't really focus on it in the dream). What was strange was that I didn't see him wearing any clothes per se, but he was rather surrounded by a brilliant white light that seemed to serve as clothing, and all I can really remember seeing after waking up was his limbs and general shape. I know he had a face but for some reason I just can't remember what it looked like. He was also EXTREMELY tall, like 7-8 feet, which was nuts. His skin color seemed to be white but I'm not sure if it was actually white or because of the aura he gave off. Anyway, he raised his right hand and I suddenly found myself standing high above the earth, almost as if I was floating in the air like Superman. It made me incredibly nauseous at first and I thought I was going to throw up or crap my own pants but for some reason I didn't, and on top of that I didn't even scream, which was odd but whatever. Anyway, the being then went on and talked about how the answer to my original question was not the answer that my heart truly sought, and that it didn't really matter either way (something along those lines; it was more of a sensation, like I said before). He then gestured toward the earth and my mind was immediately filled with images of the atrocities that have happened over the years. And honestly, it scared the living shit out of me. A few notable things I saw were: a baby being tossed into the air and being shot at by men with rifles, a woman being forcefully p*netrated in an alleyway (the alley seemed to be made of an adobe-like material but it was dark so it was hard to tell, but their clothes were definitely old looking), a secret meeting about an assassination being held in a room with intricate white walls that reminded me of the Renaissance, an American Indian woman cheating on her husband with a bearded man in a log bed, images of what was obviously WWI or WWII, I saw medieval-styled men with scimitars and spears overtaking a village of white people who they then enslaved and assaulted, I saw standard occurrences of what I can easily assume was the Civil War era, and I saw a beautiful nude Caucasian woman with light-brown hair and dark brown eyes be held over the roots of a willow tree and then had her throat slit with a knife as she cried out in horror. The sounds she made as she tried to get away reminded me of that video of a deer being eaten alive by a black bear on youtube I saw once, and it absolutely made my skin crawl (needless to say it was not as clean and quick of a kill as displayed in movies). Now, I know this makes me sound like a liar but I honestly can't remember all the details of everything because after I woke up a lot of the specifics quickly faded, like most dreams. But the last image I described was the scariest to me though. It still gives me nightmares sometimes. I remember crying when I woke up, and I was really sweaty.

[@jonbaker476]

Anyway, my mind went back to normal after that and then I soon realized I was standing in the grass field again, alone with the tall glowing man. He then asked me why I believed these wicked things happened, and I answered (aloud) by saying something about how it was because people were selfish and that they were led to believe wrong teachings. I also said something about Satan (due to my upbringing), and I talked about how some people were greedy and desperate for power. The being didn't respond to my answer but instead asked me another question. He asked me why I thought mankind was created. I replied by saying the things I'd been taught by my parents and church, which included ideas of the Plan of Salvation (you all get the gist, so I won't write it all out) and the King Follet sermon (I'm in my mid twenties and I'm a returned missionary so I know all about that stuff and you know what I'm talking about as well most likely). The being once again didn't give me a direct response. Instead, he raised his right hand again and I suddenly found myself essentially flying through space, starting from the earth and going beyond it. I don't feel the need to go into too much detail (since this is already way too long) but I essentially was shown the Solar System, other Solar Systems, various planets and galaxies, etc. Some notable planets were: one that had icy eruptions that shot into space, a planet that seemed to have life on it but was mostly a purplish color, a lot of Systems with binary stars, and a vast array of nebulas and whatnot. It honestly was pretty much stuff that we've seen in videos and documentaries. I wasn't shown any specific life on other planets. We passed by things pretty quickly. I'm gonna skip a lot of this stuff since I want to get to the meat of my dream. But the one thing that was EXTREMELY important for the being to point out to me was how every single thing in the universe had a birth and a death. This was apparently really important but he didn't explain it initially. Moving on now. Eventually, after a long time, me and the being reached this bizarre sort of white-orange fiery wall that was so bright and hot that I honestly felt as if my skin would melt off in an instant. But obviously the being kept that from happening. This fiery wall spread as far as I could see, and we stopped in front of it. If you want an image of what it sort of looked like, I'd say it kind of looked like the Ghostfence from Morrowind (shoutout to Fudgemuppet and any Elder Scrolls fans). The being then finally addressed me and explained to me that it was a sort of cage, and that it was the creation of the Wise One, or who I now sometimes refer to as: He Who Is Wise (because I honestly think it sounds cooler). He obviously didn't actually say anything, but the burning/vibrational feeling I had in my chest was translated by my brain to "Wise". Anyway, I asked him if this was the end of the universe, and he told me that it was. This entire experience left me feeling incredibly small and bewildered. I felt very scared but very awed at the same time. It's a feeling that's really hard to describe unless you feel it. Anyway, I thought that was the end of the voyage and I started to ask him other questions but he never answered. Instead, he once again turned me to the fiery wall and helped me pass through it, which I remember being very nervous about. I was also surprised, since I realized there was more I was going to be shown.

[@jonbaker476]

After we passed through the wall, I was completely and utterly astounded by what I saw and felt. It was essentially a continuation of the universe I had just come from, except the overall feeling of the place was entirely different. Until I had passed through the fiery wall, I had never really understood how exhausting our universe was. Suddenly I felt alleviated, and as if I had just drank ten Red Bulls. My heart was filled with love and compassion, and I was overcome with an immense amount of joy, peace, happiness, and affection. Affection is the best word to describe it. Affection and an immense amount of physical energy. I remember crying a lot at that point. But eventually, the being urged me onward, and I was able to witness a plethora of what I imagine was an endless universe that was filled with glorious planets, creatures, and people. Sometimes these beings seemed to be of a spiritual nature but at the same time they seemed to be physical. In all honesty I have no idea what was going on exactly and it was never explained to me. However, one thing I DID strongly notice was that there didn't seem to be any suns, due to the fact that everything gave off its own fiery radiant light in a way. The flora and fauna behaved in similar yet entirely different ways than I was accustomed to. And once again I apologize because I honestly don't remember a lot of specifics I saw, I just remember the overwhelming feeling that I felt, similar to how I remember the general shape of the being talking to me but not any specifics about his face or physical characteristics. Anyway, something that WAS explained to me was that everything in the universe in which I now was in at that point, existed in an eternal state, and that there was no birth, as well as no death. The being then turned my attention back toward the fiery wall we had passed through before, and I was amazed at what it actually looked like. You see, we had traveled so far beyond it that when I now turned back to look at it, I realized that it was actually a sort of sphere, like a globe. The being then explained to me that the universe that I came from was actually a part of the REAL universe, but was a part that had been sealed off from the rest a long time ago. When I asked him why, the being placed one of his hands over my eyes and my mind was suddenly filled with the image of what I would describe as a shadowy beast. Honestly I'm going to sound crazy but it was as if shadow was made into flesh, and instead of giving off light like the rest of the beings I'd just seen, it instead sucked all light into itself. The creature seemed to be able to change form to an extent, though its head always seemed to stay the same, which appeared to be similar to that of a dead deer or wolf but with a slightly wider face. Imagine if a wolf died and its corpse was still rotting. It wasn't actually rotting but it had a snout, and the nose was retracted like that of a dead animal, if that makes sense. But long story short, this being was shown to feed off the negative energy of other beings, and there were others similar to it. They were all similar to the original. But anyway, the thing that was most terrifying about the creature was its eyes, easily. I remember very vividly what they looked like. They were exactly like the eyes of a dead animal, all glazed over and whatnot, but they weren't actually dead. They were hungry, and they darted around with such intensity that it honestly made me want to piss myself, and when they fixed themselves on me in the vision, I honestly thought I was going to die from fear. At that point the being removed his hand from my eyes and we were back in the grassy field we started out in.

[@jonbaker476]

After that entire ordeal, I had an enormous amount of questions, but the angel-dude only told me this: the being which I saw was called Corruption, and that it was an intelligent creature who was second only to He Who Is Wise. I remember vividly that I tried to drag more questions out of him (the angel dude) about the creature but just like before he only gave me more questions in response (with the exception of one question, which I'll get to at the end), and I can only logically assume it was to get me to ponder and think. Anyway, in response to all of my questions I had tried to ask, he only responded with his own question, which was: "Why do wicked things happen?" And then he asked me: "Why were you put on this earth?" And then he asked me one more question: "Why do you not remember?" Essentially, he asked me his original two questions but with an extra one at the end, and I was so dumbfounded that I was unable to give him an answer. Oddly enough, he seemed satisfied with everything and he turned to walk away from me. However, I did manage to ask one last question, which was similar to my original question, which was about the BOM and the Church. I remember that I cried out and asked him if the book (or the church, I don't remember specifically) was true, and if I should continue to follow it, and the being stopped and turned to speak to me one last time. Even now I'm surprised at how direct the response was in comparison to most of his other responses, and the burning vibration that he created in my heart truly shook me to my core. I guess maybe the sensation was something in between immense dismay or liberation? Maybe both? It was odd. It was like ecstasy and misery at the same time. Anyway, his response was: "It's a distraction. Seek His love." And then he walked away. Anyway, take it or leave it. I myself have thought about it long and hard, especially in regards to whether or not it was a sort of fever dream caused by fasting for a long time like I did. So, yeah...

[@nathanh.9767]

@@jonbaker476 I cannot attest to this as I do not know you, your dream, or if it was even real but assuming it was real I only have this to say: that re-affirms what I have been learning the last few years: the church while I believe it to be the church of Jesus Christ, and I believe the Book of Mormon is 100% the word of God: the religion can heavily distract us from what’s important: a personal relationship with Yeshua of Nazareth. He died for our sins and is our Emmanuel. I have learned that this right here is the true purpose of the gospel and of the boom of Mormon. What is more important than even priesthood authority (yes I believe this IS important but not AS important and a personal relationship to Christ). So if you are telling the truth and you’re vision was a heavenly one: this is my conclusion, but that’s a HUGE if. Anyway do with my input what you will and God bless

[@chaseallen7499]

This episode feels like a conclusion to the CES Letter stuff with all the nods towards the other videos near the end of the video

[@matthewmessner1105]

I would love a video on the Second Anointing. That's a shelf breaker for many

[@Trancymind]

Non LDS member here, I have a question to any LDS members- Which edition of the book of mormon is the most important one to have at all times?

[@RyanMercer]

Just the standard blue Book of Mormon from the Church is fine, although I prefer the "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ, Maxwell Institute Study Edition" as the layout is easier for me to read, exact same words though.

[@cuthere93]

Do you guys have a link to the chart at 5:30 min?

[@chihangbenjaminting647]

www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2020/08/15/a-detailed-look-at-internally-consistent-references-in-the-book-of-mormon-text-part-15

[@Pharm40]

Can you show WHERE you get the seer stone in the hat translation? The Scriptures ONLY talk of the Urim and the Thummim (aka spectacles)

[@Sunshine-eo2sp]

The witnesses to the translation process said it.

[@zrosix2240]

Emma, John whitmer, Martin Harris all mentioned a rock in a hat

[@scottbrandon9390]

How did Martin Harris lose 116 pages?

[@elipayne5343]

Pretty sure they have a video about that.

[@pattykake7195]

@@jaykentucky6949 Too well hidden at Marty’s..🤫

[@bradensorensen966]

0:50 Correction! That’s when Joseph Smith “claims” to have begun “translating” the Book of Mormon.

[@chaseallen7499]

Is there any concrete evidence that he started earlier? If so, how early? where are the witnesses? Etc. there are still questions that must be answered if you claim he started earlier

[@Cyber_Cowboy]

Lying by omission is still a lie. So why not included the reason Martin Harris "lost" the 116 pages? **Spoiler** Martin's wife no.1 said if Joe Jr is really translating then he should have no problem recreating the 116 pages.

[@fallerpilot]

The Lord later revealed that the 116 pages were found by wicked men who rewrote and added some pretty awful stuff in there, to kind of contaminate the words if it was ever published. Plus, it taught Joseph and Martin a valuable lesson, and the Lord prepared for this by having Nephi write a similar record. No matter what, all was still in the Lord's hands.

[@mintbrownieangelfish-6114]

you have a source?

[@zrosix2240]

@@fallerpilothow exactly could wicked men forge not only forge Martin Harris’ handwriting, but change a text written in pen. You can’t exactly erase or backspace ink, let alone forge someone’s handwriting after doing so

[@richarner3856]

It took Charles Dickens 42 days to write a Christmas Carol so another fictional work like the Book of Mormon isnt all that amazing

[@AngelicHelper]

If it's false, it's still underrated, I agree

[@KNMFLGIRL]

Random question. Can we speak to the Holy Spirit or pray to them. What's the difference?

[@jaromsmiss]

you pray only To God through jesus christ. you do not pray to the holy Ghost. Idk if im understanding your question tho

[@nathanh.9767]

@@jaromsmiss their question is can you pray to them, because they are a member of the God head IS GOD (a lot of people only refer to the father as God but this is not doctrine the Book of Mormon calls Jesus ‘God’ many times and as he is Yahweh/Jehovah he was God all throughout the Old Testament.) but the Bible makes it clear that the spirit is also God and our doctrine dictates that they are individual beings but one in purpose and in Godliness. Now we pray to the father as Yeshua (Jesus) directed in the New Testament. Does that mean that the other members of the Godhead can’t hear it: I don’t think so and I believe no matter what or how you pray All members of the Godhead know of what you are saying. But I think we pray to the father as he is the creator of our spirits, theirs some debate about praying to heavenly mother as they are married and are scripturally one flesh and the word Yeshua may have used that became “father” may have been more closely referred to as “ancestor” or “parent” but theirs a lot of back and fourth on that and it’s not well backed up overall; my conclusion: as scripture has directed pray to the father in the name of Christ. Modern revelation may tell us more but we will see, for now work with what we are given ❤️

[@jaromsmiss]

@@nathanh.9767 ALL FACTS brother!

[@salt1956]

Excellent presenter.

[@seans5289]

When you say, “The scholarly consensus” at 1:56, to which field of study do you refer?

[@seans5289]

@@towardcivicliteracy: Is this your best guess or do you have data to show that the consensus of experts in near eastern studies agree that Joseph was translating an ancient record at a certain pace?

[@latter-daytemplar7156]

@@seans5289 The "scholarly consensus" that you specifically point out at 1:56 is in regard to the timeline of the continued translation of The Book of Mormon. The field of study alluded to is therefore the history of the Church.

[@life-of-taylor]

@@seans5289 Yeah, the scholarly consensus alluded to here is in regard to the timeline of translation as @Latter-day Templar said. More info in that regard can be found on our previous video, in which David discusses that very subject. kzbin.info/www/bejne/an-sYXmgaJJqqNE&t

[@seans5289]

@@latter-daytemplar7156: Would someone like Sandra Tanner qualify as an expert in this field?

[@latter-daytemplar7156]

@@seans5289 My main exposure to her work has been in the topic of the Church and Freemasonry. As a Freemason, I have made quite a few corrections to her claims. In addition, given that she has received criticism from both member and non-member historians alike concerning double standards, omissions of evidence, etc., I'd say that everything that she writes should be taken with a huge boulder (or two) of salt.

[@germanslice]

The Book of Mormon wasn't being translated from Joseph's own time period. For it was an ancient record, so he was translating it from another time period.

[@scottbrandon9390]

I think it was less than three months to translate.

[@amandadangerfieldpiano]

I believe those who said it was by the gift and power of God.

[@pattykake7195]

Emma said it was with a Rock in a Hat….🤠

[@davidfrey5654]

THE BOOK OF MORMON IS TRUE! There is no serious or cohesive explanation as to how this book came to being. The explanations that opposers of the church give are not at all coherent. It's impossible that a young man, around the age of 23, with very little education, could have written such an exquisite, profound, life changing book in such a short period of time. It's impossible. There is only one plausible explanation for the existence of the Book of Mormon, the account that Joseph Smith, the translator of the book gives. And the proof of the book lies within its pages. And as you said, if it's not true, it is the greatest hoax of the history of the earth. Any sincere, open hearted person can find out for themselves by reading its pages and asking God if it's true. You will come to know it's truth in your heart and mind. That is the promise.

[@bradensorensen966]

It IS possible.

[@davidfrey5654]

@@bradensorensen966 It took James Michener 7 YEARS to write his novel "Hawaii" It took Mark Twain seven years to write the book. Huckleberry Finn It took F. Scott Fitzgerald two years to write The Great Gatsby It took Jonathan Swift at least 4 years to write Gullivers Travels How do you explain Joseph Smith, who was around 23 years old with very little education, writing the Book of Mormon, which is over 500 pages long with in a cumulative of a couple months time?

[@Trancymind]

@@davidfrey5654 Did you know Joseph Smiths father, his brother Hyrum and Joseph Smith himself were free masonists from the lodge of New York? Freemasonists typically collect manuscripts and they edited themselves when necessary.

[@Cyber_Cowboy]

Again lying by omission is still lie. 4:53 you are saying no serious revisions. Thousands of small revisions over time is what some would call a serious revision

[@nathanh.9767]

Those small revisions do not change the overlying meaning or doctrine; simply semantics to clarify. I have read the earliest edition of the Book of Mormon (compiled by the scholar Royal Skousen) and I can tell you this; the doctrine, stories, people, settings, etc are all the same. Literally the only difference is phrasing or words used that are typically synonyms with the original to add further clarification or detail.

[@pattykake7195]

Years in the planning, but the rock in a hat moved things along pretty well….👌🏽

[@rockartalan]

Can you provide any historical evidence that shows that Joseph Smith was years in the planning of the content of this book? And even if he was, is there any evidence that he had the skills or aptitude to have narrated it from perfect memory without making any changes in the process? Note all the plot points that cross over from different sections of the book with perfect consistency in the chart shown at 5:30. Is it really likely that this unschooled, not well read farm boy could have produced such a scholarly and religious masterpiece? I guess anything is possible, but what is likely? What do the odds tell you?

[@jamesmorphe8003]

L Ron hubbard wrote many books in a short time frame, and made a successful worldwide religious movement. altho successful can be debated.

[@prayerwarrior7778]

When I lived in Italy a few months ago I was in Pordenone (north eastern Italy) and a buy was selling dianetics. It is crazy.

[@drb8786]

Hey there! Could you do a video on the splits of Mormon churches? We all know LDS but a lot of people don’t know about community of Christ and the independent congregations. I think if more people knew this they would give the Book of Mormon a read.

[@legocrusaderproductions3844]

I mean but your presupposing that Joseph’s word is already true, he could’ve been writing this for years and had claimed he was only doing it for 80 or so days, like a lot of Mormon arguments it requires a mormon perspective. I also like that you say that a hidden manuscript is illogical with one of the reasons being “Where is it?” Where’s the lost book of Lehi? Also the bom being the keystone I even somewhat disagree with, the witnesses of it believed in it and yet some of them were never members and others left because of Josephs behavior, perhaps Joseph strayed from gods will.

[@caseykaelin9430]

Joseph Smith was an uneducated farm boy. His wife Emma said he could not write a coherent letter much less a book. It is unlikely he had been writing this book for years.

[@life-of-taylor]

You raise a lot of good questions, which cannot all be answered in a brief 5-6 minute video. That's why David refers continuously throughout this one to all the other videos he's done on the related subjects, where he addresses available evidence regarding the Book of Mormon translation. Feel free to check them out on our playlist, "Book of Mormon (Faith and Beliefs)". :) kzbin.info/aero/PL_VwunTjPjRGu8tQYbBUYFIT88nNBXWIY

[@davidfrey5654]

It would be a huge stretch of the imagination that Joseph was writing this in his late teens. From all accounts, he could barely write anything. It's near impossible to think, unless he was a savant, that he could write such a complex piece of literature in his late teens and early 20's.

[@legocrusaderproductions3844]

@@caseykaelin9430 Ya the lds perspective is that reality is somehow blown away from divinity instead of divinity working though it not many things are a direct action from god, even if I was lds I would never give up the belief that joseph smith was an exceedingly clever man. You think some idiot is capable of establishing a huge religious movement, he founded his own bank, he ran for president, he had his own sort of colony and If you read the king follow discourse and his letters for that matter you can clearly tell he is an excellent and articulate speaker and writer and again I dont have to take Emma Smith as a neutral witness for mormon evidence that already requires your perspective. And I mean none of this even disproves Josephs prophet hood I could go along and say that god chose an extremely clever man to establish his church but please stop promoting this idea that god was just a ventriloquist puppeting this "Dumb farm boy." God doesn't work that way.

[@legocrusaderproductions3844]

@@davidfrey5654 Ok if I can believe someone can translate Hebrew from looking into a rock inside of a hat I can believe they wrote a book in there early twenties. And again the argument that this is some brilliant and interwoven piece of literature is from a Mormon perspective, it presupposes itself. Mark Twain himself criticized the very literature of the book, not even its truth claims.

[@Rooted4Life]

Time [period] is irrelevant.

[@Mcmj-ot4dt]

You're irrelevant.

[@mikeonthecomputer]

For the complexity of the Book of Mormon, first published when Joseph was 24 years old, it can be quite relevant to gauge how long it might take to write it, somehow keep it entirely secret and leave no evidence behind of the secret writing, and what kind of knowledge he might be reasonably expected to have at that age. Even if you think he started in 1820 at a time he conjured up an account of a heavenly vision, it's not much time to refine a work as complicated as the Book of Mormon. Even if you credit Joseph with all the worldly genius and education as could be had at the time and give him the full ten years. The cards stack against claims of a hoax pretty fast when you account for all kinds of factors.

[@Rooted4Life]

@@Mcmj-ot4dt yet you still took the time to comment lol 😋

[@Rooted4Life]

@@mikeonthecomputer I was speaking of the time period as in the era... Rather if it was in the OT biblical times, or the Roman/Greek era of the new testament or the 1500's etc. Gods word and power is the same through the ages... I can see how it was misinterpreted after seeing the title... Yes the length of time it took to write it is very relevant and interesting, I was referring to the tendency to negate or accept works based on the era it was written as if older works we're more inspired than modern moves of the Spirit. I didn't mean to offend.

[@Rooted4Life]

Your interpretation of what I said and meant is irrelevant.

[@seans5289]

If the Book of Mormon is the keystone of this belief system, shouldn’t we approach the story from a neutral position and let the evidence sway us?

[@mikeonthecomputer]

Would you accept confirmation from God as evidence?

[@seans5289]

@@mikeonthecomputer: Do you mean the testimony of others that god confirmed it or do you mean god confirming it directly to me? Or do you mean something else?

[@mikeonthecomputer]

@@seans5289 Directly to you. If you approach the narrative from a neutral point of view (I think this is fine!) and ask in sincerity to God whether it is true, you'll get an answer. You needn't depend on anybody else for this.

[@seans5289]

@@mikeonthecomputer: I have asked, and I haven’t received an answer.

[@Jeff_H_the_Guitarist]

@@mikeonthecomputer I truly believe God has revealed to me that Joseph Smith concocted this whole thing. I still attend the LDS church and for the past three years I’ve observed how rarely the Bible is used. If steering people away from the Bible was Joseph’s goal, mission accomplished.

[@scottbrandon9390]

Since when did JS look into a hat? That is only recent revealed history. I was always taught he sat at the table with the plates and stones. There was a veil with a scribe behind and JS told the scribe what to write.

[@kathyskidmore6887]

So good!

[@AngelicHelper]

Can you make a video on God being an exalted man? A redeemed sinner?

[@pattykake7195]

What a heretical doctrine…🤫

[@RoanPretorius-de7xv]

Absolute heresy!!!

[@DannyAGray]

Cool

[@bradensorensen966]

5:53 Good thing it’s NOT true. Though, I made life changes away from this godawful religion.

[@Leowinegar]

I love this video. Thanks guys!

[@bradensorensen966]

“23 year old kid?” 23 year olds was far into adulthood then!

[@Trancymind]

Joseph Smiths father, Hyrum and himself were free masonists from the lodge of New York. Free masonists have manuscripts either collected or edited by the free masonists members themselves.

[@Jeff_H_the_Guitarist]

personally I think he wrote it first and then a few hidden pages at a time at the bottom of a hat he then dictated.

[@dante04srt]

Seems legit

[@thelatterdayarbiter]

so your claim is that Joseph Smith can see in the dark like a cat does? cool

[@elipayne5343]

He would have had to pause, and according to various sources Joseph Smith barely ever paused, and when he did, they were very short periods where his face didn't come out of the hat. These were usually caused by an oral error or spelling error that Joseph had to correct. Also, he would have had to reach behind or in the hat to change the pages, making it pretty obvious that he was faking the translation, but again, there were several witnesses that take that claim down. Even if this WAS possible, despite all of those rebuttals, how would Joseph be able to read those pages when his face is in a dark hat, lol.

[@elipayne5343]

They also addressed this in the video

[@D-Flin]

What would be the point of a scribe if he had already wrote it?

[@dukeofsahib4967]

I think one of the major logical fallacies that latter day saints commit when dealing with the origin of the book of mormon is the false dichotomy fallacy. They believe that the book of mormon is either 19th century bible fan fiction or the word of god. Have they ever thought that it could've come from satan? The bible is littered with warnings of false prophets coming to deceive people using miracles and wonders. It also shows people who are not of god performing miracles as well. Here are a few examples of what I mean: Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect Revelation 16:13-14 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Revelation 19:20 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, Exodus 7:10-12 10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the Lord had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. 12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. Deuteronomy 13:1-3 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Over and over again we see examples in the bible of people ,who are not of god, performing miracles. So why should we rest our case on Joseph Smith just because he performs a great wonder or miracle?

[@Hamann9631]

Duke of Sahib. We don't commit that fallacy. The most plausible choices are the 2 you mentioned because it does the opposite of what Satan wants done. If it is his work, it is the most colossal metaphorical shooting of one's own foot in the history of the universe.

[@dukeofsahib4967]

@@Hamann9631 according to the Gospels even Christ himself said that not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21-23). Would you agree that there are many people who claim to love Jesus but their understanding is perverted? Thats what most Christian denominations say about the LDS church. It would make sense that Satan would make up false religions that take on the name of Christ in order to deceive people. This is what it means in Matthew 24:24 when it talks about "false christs" that would show wonders and miracles in order to deceive people.

[@Hamann9631]

@@dukeofsahib4967 The devil is definitely willing to use false christianity to lead people off the straight and narrow. You have the right to claim that is us. You have the right to be wrong. A false christianity would deny the repentance and baptism required in the gospels.

[@dukeofsahib4967]

@@Hamann9631 I think I mostly agree with you. My ultimate point I wanted to make though was that from what I've seen the latter day saints never stop to consider if their book could've come from Satan. Obviously the objections would be that it tells us to love Jesus and it tells us to do some good things. Well the Quran tells us to love Jesus and do some good things. The Pope tells us to love Jesus and do some good things. Even David Koresh told his followers to love Jesus and do some good things. However these sources I named make contradictory claims that cannot all be true. Ultimately someone is being fooled here. Keeping in mind the verses I posted in my first comment one should be skeptical of anyone claiming to be a prophet because even from a biblical perspective false prophets will come with miracles to deceive many. All I'm asking is for Latter Day Saints not to box the book of mormon into a false dichotomy of it either coming God or from man since even the spirits of devils can perform miracles.

[@rockartalan]

Enemies of Jesus made a similar proposition that his disciples were casting out devils by the power of Satan. I'm sure you remember how Jesus responded, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." Not that this is not a possibility, but what is more likely? The church and this video make it very clear that any of the academic arguments to support the validity of this book can never prove it. Please keep that in mind. These are only supporting ideas to persuade one to test it through spiritual means. The Bible says all good things come from God. If Koresh stated correct ideas about Jesus, those ideas came from God. But his application of those ideas and others produced certain fruits which do not belong to the fruits of the spirit listed by Paul. On the other hand, study the fruits of the Book of Mormon in the lives of those who follow its teachings. What does the Book of Mormon motivate the reader to do and feel? Jesus said that we shall know them by their fruits.

[@RandPersonn]

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