How NOT to Write Themes | EFAP Highlight

[@Gioven740]

Saying Hi to Wolf is the only thing that brings me joy in life.

[@arklaw8306]

Also Hi Rags.

[@robertbeisert3315]

​@awhellnah__ Raggle Frock

[@darrenoconnell2891]

Yep miss wolf

[@TheSoonToBePurgedJackMeHoffIV]

You're sad

[@Ceyx000]

How not to write Themes: Thames Thymes Thems

[@JasonX909]

So Thimes, thanks got it

[@Wyzai]

30:13 "Frienship is magic" is the child version of "You should work together with others and form alliances if you want to achieve great things". This is not a concept that ceases to be relevant when you grow up. It just becomes more complex. "mature topics" is not the same as "murder and corruption". That's the viewpoint of a 12 year old.

[@David_the_Psalmist]

Also Zach Snyder, but some scholars say there's functionally no difference between the two.

[@ReasonablypricedHitman]

A question needs an answer. In _Chernobyl,_ "What is the cost of lies?" isn't just some pretentious flourish. The story is there to show that lies incur a debt to the truth.

[@KingKayro87]

Yeah, a theme isn't a question nor a idea, it's a solution. For example: "The Meaning of Life" Not a theme. "What is the meaning of life?" Not a theme either. "The meaning of life is [insert thing]" That's a theme.

[@ori.g4mi]

"Themes" in the TLJ discourse really showed the side of the KZbin community that didn't really have the capabilities to mechanically dissect stories and elements of writing. Many people, not just youtubers but audiences as well, just cling to whatever makes them FEEL a certain something and just run with it, ignoring flaws in the writing. Back in the day, people thought that these people knew what they were talking about, but they really don't and I am glad that EFAP did their part to expose this shit.

[@zakataMan]

It's difficult for people to look past the initial emotional response that a piece of media might make them feel, you also need to consider that a majority of people don't wish to even attempt to think critically and just wish to see pretty lights and colors

[@liittlemiissd]

Logic and continuity is overly done to, it’s such an aggressive way to look at media, look at the nightmare on elm street movies or the Friday the 13th franchise, each movie massively contradicts the last, and its all the better for it, now everything is boring and needs aggressive continuity, it’s so lame. Yoda and the Luke’s father plot didn’t exist in the first movie, it was retconned, there’s flaws in Obi Wan’s logic and how he explains himself, and you guys have the nerve to go after actual movie critics like Chris Stuckman? Someone who can go a whole 5 minutes without mentioning marvel or Star Wars, it’s no wonder you hate him.

[@Soulferno]

​@@liittlemiissdHow did you go from normal comments to defending Stuckman? You have to be trolling if that's where your argument ended up

[@nmr7203]

What does mechanically dissect mean

[@liittlemiissd]

@@Soulferno normal comments?

[@ninatomamon5630]

The Last Jedi is kind of a love-hate thing for me. I explain: ruined everything established about star wars by wanting to be "subversive" and "intelligent" and revealed the true mask of the "critics" but thanks for this movie now we have the satisfactory destruction that the efap does, the memes, and most importantly SPECIAL ALIEN COW MILK

[@youwotboi9288]

"what the fuck"

[@Martinmd12-zt7vu]

A respected Japanese director named Masaki Kobayashi had this to say, “If you are clouding your mind by thinking about the film’s theme or its message, the film would be awfully dull. The audience would see nothing but the director’s intention, not his execution of the theme.”

[@trygveplaustrum4634]

So, to be fair, saying “I want to make a movie with this theme” is like saying “I want a house with this shape.” The house will inevitably have a shape, and I guess it’s a good enough reason to build a house, but that idea alone won’t build a sturdy house. Similarly, themes can’t bring the whole movie home. You have to put actual effort into crafting a quality script. What horror, I know.

[@janehrahan5116]

also just because you intended an octogon doesn't mean that it is one, when you say your house has 8 sides but it has 5, im not "media illiterate" for recognizing it has 5 sides, the writer is illiterate for not making it with 8 sides.

[@AlinaAniretake]

@@janehrahan5116 is Roof side?

[@josephkerrigan733]

@@AlinaAniretake Are you asking is a roof categorised as a side of the house? But you shortened it to "is Roof side?"...Yes.

[@AlinaAniretake]

@@josephkerrigan733 cause you can technically make an impractical house out of Octogon Wall, without Roof, or make Seven wall house with Roof, but that would not be an Octogon.

[@liittlemiissd]

Totally the same thing! You know hoe houses are built with artistic integrity in mind, not already from a pre chosen blue print of how a house is built? So you want all movies and shows to be made from the same plan? No room for exploration or pushing the boundaries of what media can be? But of course that might result in bad Star Wars and marvel products do I guess not.

[@amanpingle1497]

OH LMAO Wolf, this might be a big ask. But can you make a highlight of the Massive amount of time the boys waste when covering a HelloGreedo/Grace Randolph video? Asking coz on that one anniversary, 150 I believe, they just COULD NOT bring themselves to watch that suicide squad Grace Randolph video.

[@Arassar]

lol I remember that one XD

[@Dave_L913]

I was reliably informed by Dan and Dave that themes were for 8th grade book reports

[@dawashingmachine9158]

I’ve always followed the “write first, ask questions later” approach Don’t go into a story thinking “ok, I’m going to make the themes this, this, and this.” Rather you should look at what you’ve already written and think “ok, this theme could work well with what I’ve got. I’m going to make some revisions to explore it a bit more”

[@nagger8216]

I agree, unless you go in with really wanting to explore a specific theme, I think it's better generally that themes arise naturally from the story you're already telling, rather than crafting a story around a theme. It just seems backwards to me.

[@JackMorganUK1]

Start with a blank canvas, then ask yourself "is this the canvas I want?", then ask yourself "what medium should I paint with?", then ask "what colour palette should I stick to?", then ask "what shapes do I want to take up the canvas?", then ask "how do I fill this space as best as I can with what I already have?", then ask "how should I render the rest of the canvas now that I am finished colouring in the main space?", then ask "how should I frame this canvas?", then ask "where is the best place in my house to hang this painting?" This comment is not about painting.

[@trygveplaustrum4634]

“I thought it only works by saying, ‘I want a painting with flowers!’ and it would magically appear!”

[@JackMorganUK1]

@@trygveplaustrum4634 Sadly not. Reality is often cruel.

[@nuclearchezburgr3857]

This is the same guy who did the "celestial" and "epic" thing. That could be a good highlight to have

[@aikawaayumu9003]

I just found out Wolf is back and doing these highlights AND streamed the other day. I just want to say how awesome it is to have you back! I hope life is going well and you're here to stay.

[@zakataMan]

There's an interview out there with GRRM in which he said something to the point that he has characters he "likes" and he gives them particular traits and characteristics, and as his story evolves he finds those characters inevitably find themselves in situations where they should absolutely die, and as much as he may not like killing that character, the story to maintain believability requires that they now die because of a situation that occurred naturally through writing that story. I find that perspective interesting in that he may have a "theme" for that character or plotline and even if he wants it to continue he accepts that continuity in the plot takes priority.

[@TheInfiniteAmo]

GRRM is also an extremely labor-intensive kind of writer, though, which is a skillset that is essentially dead in modern storytelling. People like to meme on him for taking forever to finish a book but look at his conversation with Stephen King and the latter's shotgun method of writing, and then look at the gaps in quality between the two.

[@zakataMan]

@awhellnah__ Did you not read the second part. I find it interesting with that method of writing because, regardless of anything in the story "theme" being one of them, continuity in his story supersedes all of it.

[@coreys.2456]

I wonder what Closer Look said about Puss In Boots: The Last Wish if this was his perspective on Aesop’s fables.

[@DeetotheDubs]

I'm reminded of Dr Bashir telling Garak the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf and how it was about not lying only for Garak to counter with "Don't tell the same lie twice."

[@ceceria6673]

The whole video felt so snake-oil-salesman-y. Instant publishing deal = just add X. Shoehorning beloved films into his model. Overly simplifying the versatility of themes while overstating how they drive the story. There's a story I heard from a speaker in college, a screenwriter who had visited the set for "The Passion of the Christ." When the movie came out, tons of people tried to cram tons of meaning into the moment where Satan appears carrying a deformed baby across the road from Mary. The speaker told us that when she asked Mel Gibson about it, he said, "Because I thought it'd look creepy."

[@cjbroskin1327]

A statement can prompt more responses then a question, there's quite a lot to that but GOD that is brilliant.

[@litheran69]

Remember when Rose uttered that infamous line about saving what we love in TLJ. That's an instance of telling not showing. I'm an author and when I think back on the fact that I used to want to write for Hollywood I laugh. I might not be successful but I can certainly write a helluva lot better then the majority of screenwriters working in the industry today.

[@MrSupertallblackman]

I would love a MauLer review of Law Abiding Citizen.

[@noshurviverse8388]

I will say, this is one of the most confused videos I've seen on EFAP lately. Even the ones where the creator is spinning bullshit they at least manage to keep their basic ideas straight, but this one cant help but contradict itself nonstop

[@amanpingle1497]

What I like about TCL: He usually has a rough intuition about what's good and bad. He didn't fail the TLJ, Tlou2, MoM, and GoT tests. But yea, very prideful video. He went so damn abstract on it! Even if you think you're that good at writing, wouldn't you try to be very specific to avoid falling into traps like "Shit, LOTR/Any good movie disproves this point, better change it to something more concrete"

[@Coconut-219]

He has very "correct for the wrong reasons" energy. He knows what good narratives look like but doesn't quite have the right cookbook recipe...

[@Dan-gs3kg]

It's fine to be disproven by a good movie, just service the story until it's good even if it's wrong.

[@charmandyorton006]

15:36 I'm glad they ruled that out because the lactose-intolerants would have been very upset otherwise

[@spouwnerring]

The Closer Look: Is kicking puppies wrong? Well, of cource it is. If you believe that kicking puppies can be justified than you're a horrible person. Also TCL: Can murder be justified?

[@pabungus]

What are you implying?

[@spouwnerring]

@@pabungus Murder is unjustifiable killing of another human. Asking if it's justified to commit murder is completely nonsensical.

[@pabungus]

@@spouwnerring Yeah, I agree. I think what he really meant was “Can killing someone else be justified?”, which makes it clear that the killing wasn’t purely out of malice.

[@spouwnerring]

@@pabungus TCL doesn't know what murder actually is. If he did then his point wouldn't sound so rediculious.

[@pabungus]

@@spouwnerring What do you mean he doesn’t know what murder is? That’s ridiculous. He absolutely does, he just thinks it’s synonymous with “kill”, which I think is quite a common mistake.

[@TheLeadhound]

Sorry, but 'themes' are old hat. All we talk about now is 'media literacy.' These nonsense thought killing terms just boil down to 'shut up, my opinion is right. End of discussion.'

[@Lemon_Inspector]

I too am against the use of words

[@Coconut-219]

Yeah theme is basically like the 3rd grader level of narrative understanding. Internal logical consistency and cohesion in plot and characters is the deeper nitty gritty that makes or kills your narrative. Like Game of Thrones early seasons compared to season 8, the themes are the same but the execution and how well the script pulls that off is different.

[@hydriumstudio]

that last lesson was definitely on theme. don't take a nap if you're in a race.

[@genmaicha.lapsang]

Thank you for this channel and your work, Mr Wolf. It's much more digestible. I wanted to check out EFAP but the length was too much for me...and since I am a bundle of sticks that is really saying something.

[@axelwust9376]

"Themes" are weird for me, cause there are few stories that don't necessarily have them, but still manage to be good/entertaining. Honestly, I like going the route of exploring the story and then figure out the theme I'm going with. Hell, I don't need to make a gigantic theme, maybe just a small advice to the audience, even. PS, sorry for anyone who liked the message. I felt like giving a more reflective of the video message

[@KingKayro87]

It's impossible for a story to not have a theme, but the themes in the best stories I feel do tend to generate on a whim during the writing process. That's because the author focused on writing a good story, and in the editing department, they managed to find a good theme based on what they've created. It's like a house. You build the house before you fill it with furniture.

[@axelwust9376]

@@KingKayro87 Honestly, some people have a natural ability to set in what they want the theme alongside the story, just like how some people already know how the furniture will look like in their house while building it. I've seen that firsthand, bieve it or not 😅

[@KingKayro87]

@@axelwust9376 But if you fuck up building the house, then where the furniture goes won't be where you want it to be.

[@Dan-gs3kg]

You have to start somewhere, and you can't build a house with just door hinges. Themes are fine. Some stories need to abstract itself into literal prototypes of themes.

[@sognurT]

C E L E S T I A L

[@Bthakilla4rilla]

Gents, have you ever been corrupted by the taste of cheese?

[@robertbeisert3315]

This turns a theme into a message. If you try to write something true, where events follow from causes and character dynamics are believable, themes will naturally emerge.

[@skarlock5257]

Themes! Oops, I mean, THEMES???

[@Arassar]

Fleems

[@Wyzai]

19:05 good question. That could be another thing to explore. Maybe power doesn't corrupt quickly but in fact does it in steps. That's closer to the idea of corruption. You slowly become twisted and lose sight of your original goal. A responsible person might find it easier to handle quick power where they are given control of an army to win a war, rather than being given increasing amounts of power over decades to lead a country where small mistakes pile up over time.

[@JackQSmith]

My most hated question on dating apps - "So tell me about yourself." Keep in mind I already did that in my bio. The ones with any amount of originality or critical thinking skills will take one of those dozen or so talking points I've already provided and ask something specific that can actually generate an interesting conversation. I'll often reply with "Well what do you want to know?" 90% of the time they respond with "Whatever you want to tell me." at which point I'll most likely stop replying and probably immediately delete them.

[@ViolentMessiah666]

Muh Themez!

[@shonen_x_trash2488]

My 2 cents: Themes arise naturally from coherent story telling... but I am a discovery writer so I imagine it works a little different for people who use more notes.

[@KingKayro87]

I feel like I fall into both the Architect Writer and Discovery Writer camps, only in certain circles. In terms of actual story, Discovery Writer. In terms of worldbuilding, Architect Writer. I make a big ass world beforehand with lore and stuff, and then I tell a story based in that setting as though I was going through that setting myself.

[@Mantis42]

That's what Stephen King says in On Writing. He tends to discover the theme as he writes and brings them out in redrafts. Stories where the theme comes first are usually parables which are hard to make good stories

[@Peter-id9wh]

I prefer my Wolff to be marinated in Mt Dew.

[@spicyoctopus]

I will have you know Mr. Platoon that the power of cheese is corruptible as shown in Boxtrolls.

[@og4407]

I would love to see a "biden" moment supercut.

[@ScottishGremlin]

M U H T H E M E S

[@JavRexgteneg2pIift]

Was MauLer talking about Collateral in the beginning?

[@clintbeastwood5116]

Hello, my fellow celestial epic massives.

[@dominosdomino9617]

I love the closer look he’s super nice and he’s actually helped me a decent bit with writing in my free time lol

[@samael4550]

Agreed, doesn’t mean he can’t be wrong tho.

[@KingKayro87]

The thing about EFAP is that while they do cover a lot of fucknuts (Chris Stuckmann, Synthetic Man, etc.), they also take a look at some solid KZbinrs with good advice and takes most of the time, and only really try to analyze their poorly made stuff. They don't do it often, but when they do, it tends to make me sad because not all of their content is like that, but it may come off that way to people who have never heard of the people they're talking about. Closer Look, Filmento, and to a lesser extent Schaffrillas Productions are all people subjected to this sort of thing.

[@Soulferno]

​@@KingKayro87I don't believe Shaffrillas content has ever been covered by EFAP. Or anyone of major significance in the space for that matter. In fact, I don't think I've seen any major video relating to his channel that actually criticized him aside from one video I saw that disagreed with his Pikmin take and it wasn't all that great

[@KingKayro87]

@@Soulferno They ripped into his The Falcon and the Winter Soldier video, AKA his worst video

[@Soulferno]

@@KingKayro87 I missed that one. I know he's made some videos on Marvel before but I did not know one them was covering that show. I'm gonna have to find that EFAP

[@poppag8281]

0:27 what film is mauler talking about here?

[@ThomasCruisin]

It’s Law Abiding Citizen. It stars Gerard Butler and Jamie Fox. I know Mauler and co. said they didn’t like the movie, but I’d recommend it. Without spoiling it, I like the film and how most of it plays out, but I think that the ending screws it up.

[@ProjectRedfoot]

Damned rodent ran outta gas! Simple as.

[@wheezer6695]

Couldn't make it halfway, I got reminded of Destiny waffling

[@TheGodOfGravy]

Is cheese inherently corrupting?

[@InverseFlash]

More streams with big doggy

[@NineSun001]

Isn't it easier to start top down for the world and bottom up for the characters? Outline the world, what is it? Is is our world or fantastical? Past, present or future? What is the societal structure? Basic things to create a world that feels real. Enrich this world over time but never cross the outlines or contradict yourself. Then place characters in this world. Write their life. Not with something grand in mind. Write their lifes. If your character meets another one, write theit story to match this meeting and some time beyond that if the character is not just chaff. From their on you build your narrative, try to push your characters into the direction you want them in, through natural progression. Let them live, not just act out a fancy story. Write their lives, not their adventures. Then pick one adventure they went one and flesh it out. Or flesh out everything and write your magnum opus.

[@Dr.Metalblood]

Celestially epic!

[@aaronb7270]

EFAP'n on a Friday! Got two b*itches in my MPV. Half a gallon of Georgy Peorgy. I can't help that it's my POV.

[@linstar9172]

Wolf, can you do a highlight of the rhino milk meme?

[@EFAPHighlights]

That was the first video uploaded to the channel

[@linstar9172]

@@EFAPHighlights Well, better go watch that then!

[@bainrex7]

34:03 - surely Mauler just referenced My Little Pony and didn't come up with that theme on the spot, right?

[@Wyzai]

31:50 Actually yes, but we should tell that to the writers who are supposedly writing for adults. You should not be screaming moral lessons at a 40 year old audience. It comes accross as obnoxious and condecending, because it is. It shows the writer doesn't see their audience as anything except children. Children's stories will have more overt and simple themes, since they are meant to be understood by 5 year olds. "Does power corrupt" becomes "You should share your things with your friends, because they might not have access to as many things." or "You should not bully."

[@jackchipper7458]

Request how can she sleep Efap reaction

[@GB-mu9ue]

Themes, fleems. What’s the difference?

[@TheGreatGonzales777]

The Closer Look became pretty cringe pretty quick.

[@mariokarter13]

The most effective way to write a theme is to take a simple idea and approach it from as many angles as possible. Say your theme is bad communication, you could have one character be bad at speaking while another is so great speaking they come across manipulative and untrustworthy. Different approaches, same result, you're reinforcing the theme like the trusses of a bridge.

[@petriew2018]

honestly the best way to write themes is to simply not write themes. Write a first draft of your story without a single regard for what the theme is, just worry about your characters and your core narrative Then throw it away and write your second draft. Now that you have some idea of what your story is you can work on refining it, and the theme will start to become clear to you as you figure out what parts of your original story don't really fit with the narrative as a whole. Then do that 3 or 4 more times, and the theme will get clearer and clearer. What that theme is in the end may surprise even you, the author.... but writing a theme as opposed to a story is how you get surface level themes.

[@Mykal06]

To anyone reading this, please repent and believe the gospel! There is a loving God who wants to know you and save you. Jesus died on the cross and resurrected so we can be forgiven of our sins and be saved. Please consider the state of your soul. Believe in Jesus and follow Him so you may have salvation. Life is short, please make the right choice today!

[@cookiedoodle5582]

Man, literally no one understands the point of themes, huh. Mauler is just whataboutism-ing Closer Look with hyperspecific examples specifically designed to deconstruct his vague, general advice video. I guarantee you if Closer Look made his video more specific Mauler wouldn't have understood his point either way. Because EFAP is biased against themes. Granted there is so much misinformation and pretentiousness out there when it comes to themes I can't blame Mauler exactly either. But it's not like Mauler understands themes either. Closer Look is giving advice on how to use structural themes to create a basic outline for your story. And Mauler counters with "but what if there was more to your structure??" or "what if it was more complicated?". These are not counterarguments. You're just saying things.

[@charlesjung7340]

Sorry Mauler, but having watched more review type channels, jve come to find the accent of people from britain/wales to be quite irritating, irish and scotts are good though