How The Joker Smashes Our Political Narratives

[@freakunleashed8152]

The Joker movie is a gigantic mirror that allows society to see it's reflection & see the black truth. which is, we suck as neighbors and we've lost our way

[@setiem13]

The movie even smash that narrative ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Jervaited

[@spndusk2362]

It shows there's no cohesion and no homogeneousness in the west which is required for a healthy nation.

[@Macheako]

The "black truth" lawlz

[@vikingfinn7250]

Not really. Maybe in your filthy pop culture circle. Not mine.

[@vinnievictory1186]

+FREAK... "black truth" is a oxymoron. JOKER... just the latest and standard issue marketing sys-op from Hollywood. You got played.

[@LoremLorem]

It's freaking people out because it's real. There's a truth within.

[@pseudaeles]

the truth within a lie is the lie within every truth.

[@LoremLorem]

@@pseudaeles Would you open that out a bit? Truth that becomes a lie, a thing that becomes non-thing.. I'm not sure how to approach that.

[@pseudaeles]

@@LoremLorem a thing just is. the truth is a eminent dormant object, which includes us, everything else and also what is not. our perspective of truth is when we try to see the object on the meta view, but those views are only angled perspectives of the whole. By seeing it and reacting to it we change ourselfs and thereby the thing called truth. ps. if you imagine a floating ball in the center of a room and we look at it from 2 different sides, its a ball for both of us, but we see it differently.

[@t5396]

@Russell Spears thank you. Joker's inceldom has essentially nothing to do with the plot.

[@t5396]

@SlagLeg your mistake is thinking that people mistreating the less fortunate is anything new. It's as old as time.

[@DoubtX]

I really appreciated how Joker serves as a two-sided warning: it warns the individual of the danger to their soul that turning to brutality poses, and it warns society to not create brutal individuals. The realistic portrayal of both Arthur and the characters around him confronts the audience with the fact that they are playing both roles and lays the responsibility at their feet.

[@scottt.97]

Well said...i agree. The problem is that this movie doesn't really work with the actual Joker character. The Joker is a sociopathic gangster. Even if he had mental issues and was kicked around by assholes, those werent the main reasons why he became what he is traditionally known as. I never got the impression that the Joker loved to commit crimes and challenge authority. He just seems like a mentally unstable vengeful tragic figure.

[@terrythompson7535]

Excellent comment.

[@paxnorth7304]

@@scottt.97 The director is on record as saying that he was using the comic book genre to 'smuggle in' a character study.

[@jmsena]

Agreed-I loved this movie for that reason. Somehow you greatly empathize with Arthur (minus the violence) on a human level. We can all do that no matter how you land politically. Brilliant.

[@TasmaniaIsAHole]

@@scottt.97 The Joker *becomes* a sociopathic gangster. People don't just suddenly become one. We merely witness the *start* of that path.

[@hotpotato265]

“A fire broke out backstage in a theatre. The clown came out to warn the public; they thought it was a joke and applauded. He repeated it; the acclaim was even greater. I think that's just how the world will come to an end: to general applause from wits who believe it's a joke.” ― Soren Kierkegaard

[@dwightk.schruteiii8454]

And the world laugh at the christians who proclaim revelation as the end of the world.

[@MddHound]

@@dwightk.schruteiii8454 The problem with that is the fact that the end-time has been claimed to often already. It will happen when it happens, as a thief in the night that noone saw coming

[@dwightk.schruteiii8454]

@@MddHound what you say is another proof that we’re closer.

[@KuriousKi77y]

All the world's a stage

[@yurinoworry]

@@dwightk.schruteiii8454 no, for what he says has been true for a long long time, it is not unique to our time

[@streglof]

I remember Jordan Peterson once saying that the Joker is also a jester. The jester is the only one who is allowed to tell the truth in the King's court because he is beneath contempt.

[@oambitiousone7100]

Points awarded for linking to JBP ❤

[@oambitiousone7100]

@John Jourdan The king and the jester? 😏

[@dallanhodge432]

streglof dude just read Joseph Campbell Jordan Peterson is the poor mans philosopher who’s stole half his shtick from him and the clonzepans he scarfed down.

[@dallanhodge432]

@Spike Elwood hey man, your idol Peterson might take offence to that meds comment considering he was a clonzepam junkie the whole time he was talking about that dragon of chaos shit. Also read some Campbell if you don't think he bit half his shtick from there, he puts half the weird pseudoscience "Mr. Wash-your-dick-and-clean-your-room" says in a comprehensible fashion.

[@timothymeadows8326]

@@dallanhodge432 JBP does speak favorably of Joseph Campbell in a lecture. As no one will agree 100% on every topic, both contribute interesting perspectives imo .

[@RSanchez111]

Postmodernists: "We want deconstruction!" The Joker: *exists* Postmodernists: "TAKE IT BACK TAKE IT BACK"

[@RSanchez111]

@@diamonddoggerel5463 the SJW mindset is certainly afraid of "authentic" deconstruction (which, really, if it were "authentic" it would deconstruct its own authenticity). They have good reason to be scared of deconstruction: nihilism is on no one's side.

[@andrewwizard1577]

DiamondDoggerel I think he means people who claim to be deconstructionists

[@roonbare2769]

@c30f$p@d3z correct, they are not interested in removing hierarchical structures, they want to overthrow one, and replace with their own. (typically socialism).

[@dragons_red]

Exactly. This is what's so dangerous about the modern far leftist. They are advocating for such a level of deconstruction that they don't understand it will undermine everything including these structures where their own radical ideologies are built on, all because they can't tolerate what's sitting on the very top.

[@ratwood001]

This movie stars them in the eyes and does not blink

[@redtrek2153]

Instead of Batman involuntarily creating the Joker, the Joker involuntarily creates Batman. It's a nice play on the idea that they are always two sides of the same coin--the same way chaos and order can emerge from each other. There's also tons of meta-knowledge, double meaning, and inversion in the scenes--the duality of what Joker knows vs what others know, the "right" response vs the actual result, and the overall ambiguity leading to multiple legitimate interpretations. There's definitely a lot to think about in this movie.

[@susanxyz5730]

Yes, even his name is the number 9 in Jewish Gematria. Very interesting movie, for me personally, I feel the joke is on us. To not understand the psychopathic mind either from the poor or the rich, makes it a joke on us. Thus the Joker. Bruce Wayne is a 7 in jewish Gematria and his reversal is a 9, 9 is the Arthur Flecks name... interesting.

[@sednasix6608]

Red Trek that last scene was absolutely beautiful because of that.

[@davidvenegasramirez6001]

Order vs chaos, I know you're woke enough to know about Jordan Peterson lol

[@davidvenegasramirez6001]

@S R I'm not sure how you're derivng their gematria names, but the values would certainly be higher

[@timr7067]

Absolutely right. Watch the Netflix series called “Dark” and that very concept is taken to a whole new level. Ie cause and effect and “beginning and end”

[@danielb9355]

In german fleck translates to stain or smudge. The phrase "a stain on society" comes to mind.

[@theboudica2.043]

The Dutch word "vlek" comes comes most near to your American word "fleck". It's pronounced the same. But most words in American/ English language are coming from the north of Europa ( Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Danmark, Germany and the Netherlands). English is called (in my country) "the new language."

[@music79075]

@@theboudica2.043 what country is that? That phenomenon sounds fascinating. Is there resentment to the new language or acceptance?

[@KENTUCKYUSA1]

I'm not sure but I think Jonathan confused the word "flick" with "fleck??" I think we flick a piece of dust off. But a fleck is something like having a fleck of gray in a blue eye. Or a fleck of light in a dark painting.

[@skadiwarrior2053]

@@theboudica2.043 I never heard that before, but it actually makes sense. If we English are a nation fused from the people of Northern Europe which developed their own language from bits of all the old, then I suppose their/our ancestors would see it as a new language. It still amazes me though how many dialects we have here that contain words expressions, and vowel sounds that are almost identical to those across northern Europe.

[@nicolaslg1421]

Good ol' synchronicity

[@spearshaker7974]

He laughs when distressed cry’s when happy is funny when being serious and sad when being funny. I loved how his whole being was just inverted.

[@Cicadareal]

Spear Shaker Like the man who laughs except he isn’t cursed with a permanent smile when he truly is sad

[@Yammie_Moto671]

The only genuine laughter Arthur had was when he was in the Asylum at the end of the movie.

[@roonbare2769]

The joker... A wild card... Can turn the odds of a game on a whim, making established strategies obsolete... Indefinable... Doesn't fit into your box... A personification of chaos.

[@sledge2742]

Bruh

[@roonbare2769]

@@saxglend9439 Jews do write alot of comedy shows for sure lol.

[@funkchurches]

Does a black hole spin like a hurricane?

[@resurrectingman9011]

This movie is a must see. It is the greatest cinematic critique of our culture from the past decade.

[@vinnievictory1186]

This is a standard Hollywood issue marketing sys-op. Get a grip.

[@esyphillis101]

JT566 How and why was it crap?

[@esyphillis101]

JT566 Hmm I would argue that the film is actually presenting a case against nihilism. We are not meant to root for Arthur as he kills people and inspires more violence in the city. It’s essentially a cautionary tale. Oh and I do think the awkward moments were intentional to show how and why people were uncomfortable around him, thus making us understand the context surrounding his descent into madness and violence.

[@crisbowman]

@JT566 Are you saying you would give in to darkness and follow him? It doesn't take a genius to know he's wrong.

[@pitfighter871]

you might be right...

[@weltubergang356]

So what you're saying is that a fictional movie about a clown contains more truth than the news?

[@mrmurdochyessss5406]

There is *zero* truth on the news. It's nothing but a scripted and staged reality TV show masquerading as "news."

[@764Kareltje]

The more things change, the more they stay the same. The speed with which society is whirling round only leads more people back to church, where time comes to a standstill.

[@comradebear9477]

@@764Kareltje Your Churches have been exposed for the Universalist frauds they are. The West will either return to Ethno-paganism or be destroyed.

[@eldermillennial8330]

Rohit I’ll believe you’re serious when you nail your daughter’s guts to the Totem of Oden. And then I’ll put Boniface’s ax through your head in protest. The rise of the Modernist heresy only proves we’ve become weak, that is NOT the same as being disproved, or that we cannot regain strength.

[@comradebear9477]

@@eldermillennial8330 Keep telling yourself those fables. Lol. You've sacrificed your daughters and your race to Globalist Christianity, and that truth will never change. One of the major reasons for this is that all Abrahamic faiths share the same structural flaws and depravities as Liberalism itself. If you cant see this, then what makes you any different from some sun-addled lizard-eater in the Afghan hills? The West is weak and crumbling. Soon someone will come along to bury it. Maybe it'll be Emperor Xi. Maybe some preacher from Londonistan. Who knows?

[@johnbuckner2828]

Joker "The card that has no category." Hm. That's insightful. Someone that you can't label, box into an in-group and comfortably explain away; as they mock your sacred cow.

[@bard5865]

Reading Mathheiu Pegeau's The Language of Creation, Joker is the remaining brick of what the temple is made up. You can't force it into the structure nor thrown it away haphazardly.

[@vinnievictory1186]

+ JohnB. JOKER is insightful??? Nope. Satanic narratives are as old as the Bible itself and they are always lies. Do better research. THE JOKER movie is yet another standard issue marketing sys-op from Hollywood.

[@esyphillis101]

vinnie victory People like you label anything that doesn’t beat people over the head like Gods Not Dead as automatically Satanic. You seem to think that we are meant to side with the Joker when in reality the movie is a warning against the broader forces that create people like him. Not everything depicted in art is automatically glorified.

[@lukeannett]

@@vinnievictory1186 I would actually agree with that. In effect, he is the anti-Christ in this movie.

[@BGdroopy]

John Buckner 👁

[@jonah3985]

In case no one noticed, there is a photograph shown on screen of Arthur's mother when she is younger and it is signed, "Love your smile! - T.W." or something to that effect, (this scene is not too long after Arthur suffocates his mother) which lends credence to Arthur's mother's version of events -- it is highly unlikely that a man such as Thomas Wayne would have created such a keepsake for a staff member rather than a lover. Also, there is absolutely a physical resemblance. And the movie's symbolism backs this up: Arthur is "Kid A" and Bruce is "Kid B", both potential Kings who grow up without their rightful father and who are mirrors of one another -- both the "light" and the "darkness" coming into existence at the same time. Arthur is a king in exile, a king cast aside, a king forced to doubt his own identity. And there is something to be gained from going through this process. He is a "hero" to a certain type of person, emboldening them to act out the disaffection and malice that has festered in their hearts. Which is to say, he is a "villain". Over the course of the film he is learning how to become no one, saying goodbye to both identities foisted upon him by the circumstances of his existence: Wayne's bastard and potential heir to the Kingship or simply a crazy lady's adopted toy -- both identities become worthless to him over the course of the film. This is why he is Batman's perfect foil, because while he has given up his story and his attachments Batman is defined by them. Furthermore, there is a large element of unreliable narrator here -- and this plays into the concept of the Joker perfectly. The point is what really happened, and whether or not he is Wayne's illegitimate son is irrelevant now; he has passed from being Arthur Fleck the man into the Joker, embodying an archetypal being all the way to his core.

[@andrewrenwick9252]

This is really helpful! Thank you for taking the time to share it!

[@efxnews4776]

I really like the whole ideia, once i realize that Joker could be brother of Batman, everything start to make sense, like something click, of course all this was left open, but the very ideia was mindblowing at the time.

[@ekechukwuuzoma8456]

Love this

[@かじをとれ]

Excellent analysis.

[@dylansmith2550]

Best comment

[@DarthDani]

"You're just one bad day away from being me"

[@malisensei7959]

Darth Dani “It only takes one bad day for you to end up like me”.

[@finnibertlunchiken7792]

I've had about three thousand bad days. Thankfully I've had about seven thousand really good ones so it hasn't caught up yet.

[@bnferguson9827]

The Punisher!

[@magiv4205]

@@finnibertlunchiken7792 that's strangely hopeful perspective. Thank you.

[@Samurai8989]

As you said, this brilliant rendition of the Joker character is someone who simply can't be pigeonholed into a convenient or politically expedient enemy that matches current Left-wing narratives. Hence, he's the perfect personification of the Joker card in a game of cards: wild and without definition, allegiance, or suit.

[@vinnievictory1186]

+ZELUS JOKER as insight? Satanic narratives are as old as the Bible and always lies. THE JOKER movie is yet another standard issue marketing sys-op from Hollywood.

[@chafrey8532]

Zelus Domus Tuae I wouldn’t call it left wing narrative. It’s the elites narrative. This is the whole point. It’s not right versus left. It’s elite vs non elite.

[@SeasideDetective2]

You speak as if the left-wing narrative is the only narrative that's being heard out there, which is clearly untrue. And the subtext of this video - and your response to it - seems to be that anti-liberals are all wild, wacky, gleeful, fun-and-fancy-free subversives who reject all cliches and dogmas. That, too, is clearly false. There are plenty of anti-liberals out there who are very set in their ways, who are in a foul mood much of the time, and who indeed revere sacred cows of certain types and will NOT be amused if you mock those sacred cows.

[@beareble-lion4446]

@@vinnievictory1186 dude stop beating a dead 🐎 we get you think everything is the devil

[@t5396]

@@SeasideDetective2 examples, please.

[@karolinasz.141]

it's incredible how much discussion this movie is generating

[@sunbro6998]

And everyone has a different take. It is great.

[@karolinasz.141]

@@sunbro6998 Yes, exactly! I have literally been messaging my friend for 3 days about it since watching it on Sunday....

[@thetoad5407]

@@sunbro6998 Praise the 🌞!

[@sunbro6998]

@@thetoad5407 Praise it!

[@Marc-io8qm]

Why were all the black people either helpful or victims and the bad people are white? It's the same agenda across all media.

[@66martinezga]

The line "nihilism is on no one's side" made me understand everything.

[@abebber2008]

I missed that line. At what part of the movie does someone say that?

[@66martinezga]

@@abebber2008 not in the movie. In what Jonathan was saying.

[@66martinezga]

@Deliq sounds more like narcissism than nihilism.

[@Alorand]

@Deliq It's not your fault that you are average, or that you sound fearful in trying to justify your worldview. I hope that you eventually find peace.

[@AndyJarman]

@Deliq but you aren't 'on your side' of you aren't aiming at anything constructive.

[@annatardlordofderps9181]

Attention readers: Everytime he says "people" Jonathan means critics. Joker has a 56 critical score but a 93 viewer score. The people love the film. One of the largest things the movie Critiques didn't like the movie.

[@kayvee256]

See, that surprizes me. I would've expected it to be the other way around just because of how unabashedly arty it is, and the way it plays around with comedic/tradgedy arcs in the storytelling structure. Critics and pretentious fucks like me usually eat that kind of nonsens up with a big damn spoon while everyone else goes for something that's actually enjoyable. But in this case, weirdly, I'm with the people against the critics. It's weirding me out.

[@koatam]

@@kayvee256 Rotten Tomatoes gets its critic sources from publications and news sites. Seeing how so many publications went after the movie I assume the critics had to tow the comany lines.

[@11mousa]

@@kayvee256 Not that surprising in my mind. For the public side: People are not as stupid as several Outlets want them to look, so they are very capable of identifying a good movie, and seeing the themes presented. Media outlets on the other hand look in the mirror the movie holds in front of them, see the grimace looking back, and can't live with what they see, because this grimace is the core of their very existence.

[@keetmadu1054]

I can't remember of a movie that has created more conversation, theories, divisiveness and most importantly truth then this movie.

[@thecanadianmacadamian3018]

The passion of the Christ actually

[@wijny4222]

taxi driver

[@kjekelle96]

The Matrix

[@paronymiusparonymius4468]

There are much, much, much more violent movies, like John Wick 3, and nobody from the MSM ever bothered. On another note, choosing his crush to be a black woman is an intelligent hit.

[@KS-zb3hj]

My first reaction was "ofcourse' with my eyes rolling but are you suggesting its actually saying 'only a delusional person would engage in miscegenation'?

[@smotnick]

But this movie is disturbing. Wick 3 is overlystylized violence. It's less offensive.

[@iara0]

@@KS-zb3hj Dont become the caricature the SJWs talk about when they picture a right-winger racist.

[@Immolate62]

@Mark Donald no need to project your pathologies onto others Mark. There are so few non-mixed people in America, and they break down into two categories: third world immigrants and blue-blooded elites. Frankly, I don't expect that the blue-bloods are all that racially pure either, but they'd pay good money to claim otherwise. Just remember that we all have our crosses to bear and that there are always heavier ones than yours, no matter who you are.

[@Immolate62]

@Mark Donald only isolation, whether natural or artificial, will protect biodiversity in the short term. In the long term, nothing will protect it, and to strive to protect it is essentially telling other people who they can love. That's none of your (or my) business, and the very idea of worrying about it points to a serious case of wasting time. I'm probably about as white a second generation American (on my German mom's side) as you're likely to find, but I'm also hopelessly diversified in the various white European flavors that went into me. Any chance of racial purity was lost generations ago. I could not care less about that. I find my family background interesting, but nothing in my racial composition makes me better or worse than anyone else.

[@papercut7141]

Why is everyone so quick to assume the story about Penny in her medical records was the truth? Why would a madwoman have to sign a NDA? Why would she even remember such a thing? Why was the picture of her with the note from Wayne shown? Why would Alfred react to Penny's name like such a threat as he did if she was just some crazy woman from 3 decades ago? Why was the "boyfriend" who abused Arthur never shown or named? It's certainly ambiguous, but I think it's highly possible that Arthur IS Wayne's son and the implication is that his fixers arranged Penny to be framed for the abuse of Arthur, committed, and lobotomized. It's practically a trope of the rich adultering politician, and adds an important layer to the story's capital 's' Society

[@Alorand]

Yes the ambiguity is there. Just like the ambiguity that the last third of the movie might be Joker's fantasy world built around what is really happening.

[@mostlydead3261]

I'm surprised that he failed to recognize how ambiguous the movie is in this regard, he treats it as if it is crystal clear when it is in fact anything but.

[@papercut7141]

@@mostlydead3261 I think it's because he recognized the dissolution of identity theme and ran with it, as far as Arthur's character arc is concerned it doesn't change much since it seems he believed the report and to him his identity was severed. It does add a layer to the theme though since his condition and trajectory pushed him toward believing his mother was lying. He WANTED her to be lying at that point, because it made it that much easier for him to embrace the "comedy" of his life and cut ties with it completely. In other words, the ambiguity of the situation pushes him further from being a victim subject to circumstances toward being an agent making decisions and taking action.

[@Saiviiro]

It dosn't really matter to arthur, everything is already too fucked up at that point (Spoiler coming) Wayne dies anyway, so the joker laughs at the end because isn't it ironic? he died anyway and left a child alone?

[@esyphillis101]

Alfred’s reaction to Penny’s name might be explained by the fact that 30 years later she was still penning letters to Thomas Wayne, trying to contact him.

[@CrystalMouse1]

Watching Joker yesterday was like reading my diary. I’m autistic and in a wheelchair with crazy parents. It’s literally my cry to ask “why can’t people just be nice?”

[@t5396]

I feel for you.

[@t5396]

@Mark Donald how did you get over your fear of death?

[@t5396]

@Mark Donald sleep on it.

[@CrystalMouse1]

@Mark Donald sounds like we should keep in touch

[@yourkingdomcomeyourwillbedone]

The real souls in this world are doomed. Hide yourself away and keep whatever is precious to you safe.

[@robinwinter8660]

You forgot one major aspect, the fact that to begin with, all that he wants is just to make people laugh. But the world just wont let him.

[@BGdroopy]

Robin Winter this world has no room for a pure heart. They will stomp it out.

[@joseornelas1718]

He's delusional, and not funny.

[@BGdroopy]

Jose Ornelas delusional but when wasn’t he righteous?

[@deBarnik]

I was at the premiere of the movie in Venice, and after the screening I thought it was funny and ironic how the audience (most of it at these premieres is made of journalists, producers and industry workers) was talking about the movie focusing only on the aspects that confirmed their favourite narrative, for the most part siding with The Joker and the "revolution" he induced. It made me think how, as Arthur states in the very last scene, they actually didn't get the joke.

[@ninjaslash52_98]

They didn’t get the joke

[@tracepuckett619]

makes it funnier when the joker himself says he "doesnt believe in anything" when asked if he even knows or cares about the revolution and riots he started

[@guineapig55555]

That's why in the comic books Joker has no problems with killing and maiming his own soldiers, just to show his enemies that you can never really hurt him; his cause and power are amorphous

[@smotnick]

NOT quite all the audience: kzbin.info/www/bejne/i5rLdGp4jKhmhas

[@deBarnik]

@@smotnick Well, I was in the audience too so... :P Good interview!

[@mercurymachines4311]

This is a great analysis of Joker. The film really is a masterpiece.

[@brianstocks4145]

idk about masterpiece, but a solid 8/10

[@nelas_27]

It's almost literally just "Taxi Driver" repackaged.

[@mercurymachines4311]

Nelas Dosto kinda... but better, and I love Taxi Driver.

[@nelas_27]

Also "King of Comedy." The masterwork of this movie was done in it's marketing.

[@chipsfalling8625]

agreed, the stefan molyneux review is a great compliment to this one as well. this one is more of theme and his is more where the rubber meets the road. both are inspiring of thought. well done Jonathan, thank you.

[@Kil-Caustic]

The disturbing nature of the film is intentional. 10/10

[@thejason755]

Me and my gf saw it tonight, her reaction was to feel uncomfortable. Which i commend todd philips for intentionally doing, because your not supposed to like arthur if you remember all the shit his future self does. Your fully encouraged to empathize with him, because no one ever thinks about what he feels, And thats where audience conflict comes in, because on one hand you want him to catch a break: on the other hand you remember what he did to barbra gordon and jason todd and suddenly you don’t want him to catch any kind of break

[@esyphillis101]

thejason755 Did your gf hate it?

[@thejason755]

Marcus Chang she didn’t so much hate it, she thought it was amazingly well done. She just felt weird abouf the movie itsslf

[@cedricbethea358]

Maybe the media should ignore a movie like this next time. They fired up people like you and me to go and see this movie. I'm glad the joker movie got the last laugh.

[@mg42GR]

That’s basically what the media modulates ..

[@smotnick]

Who the fuck said the "media" was upset about this movie??? It's received some pretty good reviews and I'm sure Phoenix has been interviewed on those "Access Hollywood" type shows.

[@cristopherborgstede1199]

Adenoid Hynkel the people who have to feed their compulsive desire to be the downtrodden good guy because they have a raging victim complex from seeing minorities have higher relative gains to themselves over a period of time where nearly everyone’s standard of living has improved, because when they see that their entitled sense of normalcy and domination is threatened, and they can’t handle it. When for centuries the entire world has catered to your demographic, you tend to feel a little bruised when these uppity minorities start demanding things like “rights”, or “basic decency”.

[@patrickdecambra2219]

maybe that was the point

[@ComedyGuardianWarriorsFOHlulz]

Adenoid Hynkel conservatives- who blame liberal Hollywood and videogames for mass shootings to avoid talking about guns- had to hop on this Hollywood movie's ballsack, to stand in opposition to the SJWs/liberal "media" who were concerned it might inspire some violence. Irony. And then Joaquin Phoenix came out and was as liberal as he wanted to be in all of his acceptance speeches🤣 Irony upon irony. I Was truly HaHa-ing

[@danielwalley6554]

I had a strong emotional reaction while watching the film, but it's in seeing all the ways people are reacting to it that I think the director's pulled off a masterpiece. It really is giving us a mirror, people are projecting their own world views onto the parts of the movie that fit them. That's the genius of all the juxtaposed themes it weaved together. It's teaching us something about ourselves.

[@aaronpeters6209]

I think it's funny that the media was scared of/or thought they would provoke a mass shooting at a showing of this film. When it's a film that any troubled person that commit such an atrocity is more than likely going to go and see. And, end up finding catharsis and a sense that the writer/director of the film are speaking on his behalf. This point is coalesced in the second scene with the counselor where he is voicing that she isn't really listening to him, that no one is really listening to him. Mass shooters do want attention for people to care and listen, it's why they start killing people in the first place. The path for dialogue has been exhausted.

[@MikesCarInfo]

I find it interesting that the actor that played the Joker has the name Phoenix. Arthur dies and becomes Joker.

[@comrade3186]

That's deep !!!

[@greenkestrel]

Covington kids were not elites. In the words of the Joker, "They're just kids."

[@raifthemad]

They were also not bullying anyone, in fact you could say that they were being bullied by first the Hebrew Isrealites and then by That native guy who walked right up to one of them and started banging a drum and chanting in his face. The fact that this reviewer is so misinformed speaks volumes about how far up the ass of an echo chamber his head is. Stop watching mainstream news, or at least stop taking them seriously ffs. kzbin.info/www/bejne/e4u3dXylrtyqfc0

[@BeautifulLuxury]

Those words of the Joker applied to the kids that beat him up down the alleyway

[@thomasjorge4734]

The Covington Cids are in the eyes of the Left, much worse, than the WASP Elite, that they wish to join. They are Middle-Class Catholics, who they envy and despise, not for their Economic Wealth, but for their Emotional Health.

[@lukeannett]

It also smashes the idolisation of victimhood that our culture currently practices. Joker is the ultimate victim who is also the ultimate evil.

[@lukeannett]

Just because society doesn't treat you well is no excuse to not care for it. The society in Joker is almost completely devoid of Christianity and the result is a pre-Christian, ruthless world driven by vengeance. Even Batman, which is always the logical conclusion to such chaos is driven by vengeance. Joker had a choice: transcend victimhood like Jesus did or embrace it. He embraced it and became nihilistic, comedic evil. He is fundamentally anti-Christian. Have a search for David Gornoski's Joker analysis. It is the best analysis I've seen.

[@maudeeb]

@@lukeannett Would your miserable attitude towards someone as unfortunate as this character not count as fundamentally anti-Christian?

[@smotnick]

BOTH sides if you want to be honest about it.

[@kellymadden2873]

@Patricia M There you have it, the justification for his nihilism. (But you really REALLY need to get out more. Only someone who has never seen the shadows in other parts of the world could say that.)

[@smotnick]

@Mark Donald he committed manslaughter, murder, and sowed chaos.

[@michaelpisciarino5348]

0:00 Introduction: It smashes The Overton Window 1:29 Spoilers Ahead 3:02 His name is _Arthur Fleck_ A King, Thrown Away, Debris, Ambiguous, Unknown 4:40 Garabage Strike. *Everything Must Go* 6:40 A Bully gives Arthur Fleck a gun. Fleck murders some wall street men _The Gun_ 9:43 Arthur Fleck: Abused, lonely man, a victim/a boogeyman, INCEL 11:28 He writes letters to Thomas Wayne, An abusive rich guy. Thomas Wayne is NOT Arthur Fleck's Father 13:10 Expectations Rise, Expectations are Subverted 14:10 Fleck loses all of his identity. 16:23 Comment From The Director (Who can make a comedy in this culture?) 18:02 African American workers singing, The poor on television Charlie Chaplin _The Hobo_ 19:46 Bitter Incel, Revolutionary For The Poor, King of Chaos 20:45 The Mad King. Frightening The Narrative 22:17 The Clown always rips apart that which we hold dear. They poke fun. Nihilism Carnival

[@MrJuggernautishere]

thank you for the work

[@clownphabetstrongwoman7305]

it didnt freak me out at all. It didn't "break" anything for me anymore and it was a very impressive movie. A true piece of art and I LOVED it.

[@malisensei7959]

Jonathan Morgan Yeah you make no sense

[@annglaister]

Probably the best comment I’ve read ...hooray 😘😘😘😘

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Oh crap. I really want to watch this but I haven't seen the movie yet. Inside I'm still an impatient child.

[@sunbro6998]

I would like your take on it after you see it, but before you watch anyone else's take Paul.

[@papercut7141]

Paul, it's time for a movie review

[@karolinasz.141]

Yes, I'm also interested to hear your interpretation :)

[@rinwesley3092]

I would love to have your input on this too! Please see it too. I love this film.

[@jungatheart6359]

I haven't seen it yet either, but as it's Jonathan I thought "hang the spoilers, it'll probably only enhance my enjoyment". Possibly the only KZbin channel where that thought would cross my mind - present company excepted, naturally :-)

[@voodooozo3755]

They see joker and they look in the mirror that shows the most sick parts of them. They dont like looking at such sight.

[@deanfirnatine7814]

It received a 8 minute standing ovation from the audience at the Venice Film Festival, that is before the left realized it was about them as the director later stated.

[@brianstocks4145]

wow, thats cool. not surprised really.

[@marshallsweatherhiking1820]

The people attacking the film aren't "the left".

[@lakiog1938]

@@marshallsweatherhiking1820 they are

[@lachlanbell8390]

@John Jourdan you must work for The Guardian. Or maybe Vice? Or could it be *insert leftist shitrag*?

[@lakiog1938]

@@lachlanbell8390 its also ironic how first guardian review was 5/5 and then sum cuck came in and gave it a 2/5

[@mlight8443]

It's the heroes journey turned on its head. When the hero is on a journey to defeat the big bad, you have an idea that the big bad is this clearly defined cartoonish bad guy. This movie is attacking the subtler bad guy of everyone's preconceived narratives.

[@davidMflores]

It seems like many people projected their ideas onto the hero of the story, forgetting that he is and always has been an unredeemable, unapologetic, villain. The outrage and strange reviews surrounding it just show how much we live in a political frame these days.

[@1tmildew]

Right. He's the protagonist, but it's more a tragedy as he's arguably a victim of society who ultimately snaps and does evil. It doesn't fit The Narrative because victimhood is a currency; victims are played up to be morally good, downtrodden by some nebulous everything-ist system.

[@papercut7141]

@Hippy Dippy he lied about his origin. He could be a hero if you have a pagan notion of heroism

[@esyphillis101]

Dīvīnitas Simulācrōrum What would a pagan hero be like in terms of ethics and morality?

[@silentotto5099]

@Hippy Dippy Actually, he only thought he understood the "baser aspects of human nature", as you put it. In the end, he was wrong. What he thought would happen didn't happen.

[@papercut7141]

@@esyphillis101 relative to whatever idol is being worshiped. It's like something pageau said once in critique of Johnathan Haidt's notions of religion, he's right that all religious systems operate by circling around a center of worship and defining sacred/pure concepts, but what's at the center actually matters. It has to actually be the center, i.e. it has to be something that can hold the universe together without decay or disintegration. Something that obviously couldn't be represented by the Joker, making him a hero. But in a pagan view he obviously could, if you so choose to be a death worshiper, which is essentially what his "pure" dedication to being a deconstructive agent is symbolic with.

[@trinidadraj152]

Good instinct! The odd media attention is what got my interest too. I had wondered why there was so much fear around the opening night of this movie, and the movie reviews weren't really impressing me with their insights. This video was the feedback I was looking for. And I agree. People want to feel confirmed in their narratives. Aberrations which cannot be easily classified confuse people. The clown archetype cannot be easily classified. On the other hand, the holy one who lived in the world and broke our classifications was Christ, who saves.

[@thescapegoatmechanism8704]

“Everything must go” is the new “God is dead”

[@sennewam]

I like "Nihilism is dead"

[@thescapegoatmechanism8704]

Teo that doesn’t make sense

[@Saiviiro]

that was because new york was full of trash filling the streets, and then rats invade, so the cartels "everything must go" (all the trash)

[@sennewam]

@@thescapegoatmechanism8704 F

[@jaymzbeaman6116]

@@thescapegoatmechanism8704 the result of "nihilism is dead" is that everything does and doesn't matter because we aren't bound to nothing mattering because it doesn't matter that nothing matters.

[@Bob-zr6mr]

Joker is a snapshot of today's society in The USA. Loved this movie: Plan to see it again folks. Have a great day. Good analysis.

[@percytoplis2335]

People who have installed Overton windows in their houses should act more responsibly.

[@jasonflennoy9535]

Reminds me of “The Shining”. The one perspective that shifted for Joker is that he stopped taking his medication, felt much better (Like his Real Self), and then became lucid in his narrative.

[@bright-noise]

Got any specifics on how you thought it was like The Shining? Just curious because I got that vibe from it as well but nothing I can really put my finger on

[@brianstocks4145]

@@bright-noise dream sequences, for one

[@ratwood001]

Yes, when he said that...chills

[@sweynforkbeard8857]

NIce, like the Shining, he becomes more lucid, but more delusional. I loved how the movie is shown from his perspective, but at the same time he is an unreliable narrator. He has a fantasy relationship with the girl down the hall, then the scene happens where she barely recognizes him when he is sitting in her apartment, and then reinforces this delusional aspect by showing the scene in the hospital with and without the girlfriend. For me, when he is in the Joker makeup, he exists in a fantasy world. Notice the sparks coming off his shoes as he descends the stairs. Notice the ending at the hospital how he seems to be lost in his own world, still dreaming of leading a revolution. What is reality and what is fantasy to him is totally unknown.

[@sweynforkbeard8857]

@Joseph Autumn I guess, if you're a race obsessed person, and have the desire to view everything through that particular prism. I just find that to be a toxic, self hating way to view the world. If that's the message, then it's one I reject. What's this got to do with Joker?

[@PeriorMan]

Joker kills 3 Wall Street guys (banks) , larry at the show (media), Thomas wayne ( political figure) End result a Revolution.

[@obamagaming3640]

Good eye. I didn't think of that.

[@amaxamon]

He also kills a workmate, his mother and possibly the girl across the hall.

[@MrVidLuv]

@@amaxamon You guys forgot about the woman in the psych ward. He killed her too.

[@bradleyp3655]

"...art has an enormous beneficial impact on society, even when it skirts the risk of doing harm. It makes us question, reconsider, re-evaluate. It shakes us as much as it succors us, makes us uncomfortable as much as it makes us comfortable. It sinks deep in our hearts and minds and changes us forever. And the more unsettling it is, the more likely it is to have an effect..." From the article "In Defense of 'Joker' and Its Repulsive Violence" by Steve Galloway, Hollywood Reporter. September 16, 2019.

[@jamieyoung9392]

I saw the movie last night. I thought the key scene was where Murray Franklin's producer loses control of the narrative during the live broadcast. That's where we are now.

[@JonasAnandaKristiansson]

TRUTH

[@anthonywhitman9490]

Lo

[@profesor3214]

Exactly!

[@cyberklashnikov3062]

It's only a matter of time before society falls

[@NewYorkNadia]

JOKER exposes the hypocrisy of today's liberals. Enough said.

[@rdrzalexa]

Arthur Fleck: King of the Lost Boys

[@sunbro6998]

Very appropriate.

[@esyphillis101]

The movie would’ve been thematically richer if it had a scene where either a character references Peter Pan and the Lost Boys, or visually alludes to it in some way to foreshadow the ending scene.

[@sunbro6998]

@Clown Supremacist clown supremacist, ridiculous.

[@rontennis6569]

Yup

[@yourkingdomcomeyourwillbedone]

*Sad Boys

[@Csob2ye]

This was one of the best movies Ive ever seen. It showcases that we are to blame for the breakdown of society. We are all assholes and need to check our egos. It really makes you think about mental health and how it being ignored by society has allowed for sick people to get lost through the cracks.

[@setsen337]

It seems that tense and divisive political climates result in these great works of art that manage to gather all current conflicting narratives into themselves without taking a side. When multiple grand narratives are developed within a single culture, it becomes exponentially more difficult to produce art for that culture without it being rejected due to a violation of one or more conflicting codes of ethics. Real, evocative art becomes dangerous to produce. Eventually some genius figures out how to tell every story at the same time, thus creating a synthesis. Hamlet is the ultimate example of this. Tensions between catholic and protestant Christianity were deadly serious in Shakespeare's day; thus he crafted a play where no one could tell if the ghost was from hell or purgatory, or even if it was real. No one could tell if any character is lying or telling the truth, who's conclusion is correct if anyone's, or whether anyone goes to heaven or hell when they die. The lack of certainty *becomes* the story. Thus no one can call Shakespeare a heretic, everyone pays to see the play, and he gets everyone in town talking about it. Todd Phillips has crafted a kind of modern Hamlet, breaking down thought barriers in very much the same way Shakespeare did. Bravo.

[@IVilnn]

holy hell my mind is blown

[@aintgotnoname6548]

Smashing comment! 👍

[@melo86argh]

People don’t like the idea that’s actually everybody’s fault if shit happens. Threat people unfairly it’s a choice that makes world only more terrible

[@t5396]

If everyone is equally guilty everyone is equally innocent.

[@selinnazsur2328]

It's amazingly ironic how such a visually colorful character may be one of the grayest characters in movie history.

[@papercut7141]

I love the comment on how his dissociation from his identities brought on the Joker transformation, I hadn't thought of that. Also the destruction of his comedian identity by his ersatz father figure in the late night host, it made him a man with no father, no mother, no spouse, no job, and no purpose. Completely destroyed as a man and of course what followed must follow.

[@Synistercrayon]

The media outcry shows that this movie is TRULY A MIRROR! It puts the government in FEAR!!

[@GenerationX1984]

I don't remember seeing anybody from the government in the movie unless you count the police.

[@Synistercrayon]

@@GenerationX1984 you miss my point

[@ACMUSICLATIN]

the joker sheds light in to the mental health crisis that we have in nyc and around the world. Cinematography and acting was impeccable.

[@steevrawjers]

as a mentally ill person i agree

[@be2keen]

Arthur Fleck = A. Fleck = Afleck as in Ben Afleck (who once played Batman)

[@mamaurax25]

Warner Bauer HAHAHAHAH

[@khatharrmalkavian3306]

And coincidentally burned it to the ground...

[@TimSlee1]

The Joker addresses the devil that lives in all of us, it shows us a reflection of ourselves that some people just can't cope with seeing.

[@bblrip3690]

In German the word 'Fleck' means stain, dirt, smear, like some clothes need a wash or are ruined, because they have a Fleck on it...

[@khatharrmalkavian3306]

I really, REALLY wish people would shut the fuck up about this. It means the same thing in both languages.

[@bartoszmiera5182]

What is so good about Joker is not collapsing of ambiguity of the Joker character. He is product of his nature, free choices and society around him. Thanks to that he is evil yet somehow there are situations one can relate to him.

[@khatharrmalkavian3306]

The fact that evil is relatable seems to be what's particularly disturbing to some of the right-leaning critics I've spoken to.

[@asdfasdfasdf111666]

Thank you for your clarity and honesty in this review. Amazing how misunderstood this film is. Willfully misunderstood for the most part imo

[@sunilKumar-sy9pm]

Thanks for explaining. Being Indian I saw this Movie in Delhi, India. People after watching this movie were clapping and I was discussing with my friend how good this adaption is. After few days l saw big uproar in social media about Political points of this movie I never understood why. Thank you for explaining.

[@guitarsnstrings4things677]

I enjoyed this analysis. Will check out your other videos

[@BREAKOUT444]

I got the same feeling while watching Taxi Driver. Made me afraid of myself.

[@nJ572]

Not sure if you noticed, but above the Joker’s mother’s bed is a Madonna with the Christ child. A bed, mind you, they laid on together (while watching the late night show). Their relationship was a sort of perversion of that depicted in the painting above her bed.

[@AlexanderKabusk]

Good catch.

[@MariaM-ox3wp]

Nick Jones There were two icons of the Theotokos in the appartment. The moment I saw them I was hoping to hear what Jonathan had to say about this. There was one in the mother’s bedroom, and another one in the living room. Both on the opposite wall from the television, so Arthur and his mother had constantly their backs turned on the icon, staring at the television screen instead. A bit of a statement there, I find.

[@tundrella]

You mean she was a single mother with a son? They are often momma boys with weird/unhealthy boundaries.

[@watermelonlalala]

I noticed long ago film makers like to use Catholic symbols and icons on the walls in movies about horrible or crazy mothers.

[@themagnus2919]

That's the Jewish director using the opportunity to mock Christianity.

[@kshwi3215]

This is the best analysis I’ve heard so far. I enjoy the rest of your analysis videos too. New sub!

[@Joefrenomics]

Wow, the layers of symbolism here are amazing. You pointed out a bunch of things about the movie that I didn’t recognize.

[@stackingdamage7340]

Your take on the film is by far the best I've seen. My feeling walking out of the theater is that I had just seen "peak nihilism" and I think you elaborated on my own thoughts well.

[@mightyape8288]

In an era where people want to predict every single move of the others, the Joker represents the primal fear provoked from an wild animal. Everyone love dogs but only few of us would come near to an Wolf, and they belong to an same branch. How many of you wold come near to The Joker in the train bully scene and ask him “Is everting ok man?” when he’s having the laugh crisis? Personally I’ll love too 😜

[@ZlotyChannel]

Was expecting this video a lot, thanks!

[@styxzero1675]

I really liked the joker because I can relate to him in so many ways.

[@Immolate62]

We can all relate to him. If that gives you comfort, you may want to have that looked at. There's a difference between embracing the shadow and harnessing it. A weak man grants his inner monster license. A strong man bends it to his will.

[@SoreEater]

a big THANK YOU for this video. I feel so glad that there are smart people like yourself, well-educated, articulate and capable of conceptual thinking who ALSO are not too "elitist" to watch commercial cinema but instead appreciate what it's able to convey when it's done this well. and ESPECIALLY because you ALSO know what "punk rock" actually is. Thank you!

[@zaboomafia]

Carl Jung talked about the shadow. Society even has a dark shadow they don't want to talk about and it has a lot to do with the media!

[@samliedtke]

That's a great line, "Joker is the most punk-rock movie I've seen in a very long time"! Immediately after seeing the film I wanted to hear your take on it, Jonathan

[@tragicslip]

for me the Joker does a great job of showing why you can feel sympathy for evil people, or hate good people. it destroys a simplistic all good/ evil narrative and replaces it with a human one. watching vid now!

[@tragicslip]

@@CroMagnon42 yes, people aren't all good or evil. it's easy to pretend they are and that pretense is what the film attacks.

[@PayneMaximus]

I'm going to watch it this weekend, so I'll come back and watch your analysis then. Thanks for the heads up.

[@zerozilch]

The moral of this is there will be no sympathay for some of us ever..

[@BGdroopy]

Eric L Krepps Sr why would u want some sympathy from someone ?

[@zerozilch]

BGdroopy i guess ur right revenge is best serverd cold

[@kimberlygabaldon3260]

7:21 He kills the first two elite guys in self-defense, though, (then hunted down the third). One thing that I noticed was the way that it was reported in the (movie) news. It was reported as if the killing had been done out of envy of their position. It seemed that the assumption was made that, because they were affluent, they were also law-abiding, and innocent of all wrongdoing themselves, while he was actually under physical attack by them at the time of the shooting. If he had let the third guy go, and called the police, he could have justified the shooting as self-defense. The problem is, with the discrepancy in social status, would the police and jury have believed him? I didn't see "incel," in this at all. Just mental illness and hopelessness.

[@xyhmo]

Wayne himself spoke well of the wall street guys, and berated people who fail at life, as if everyone can be successful if they just work hard enough (a completely retarded and kind of evil notion, but very useful to the elite to justify their position and make less fortunate blame themselves).

[@luddity]

Incels are also social rejects who are very lonely and feel hopeless.

[@kimberlygabaldon3260]

@@luddity that's true, but i didn't see any specific bitterness toward women in Arthur Fleck.

[@mctow8554]

It wasnt exactly cold blood. Plus if he lets the guy go then he will spend the rest of his life in prison. Why should he go to prison for defending himself. Defeats the purpose.

[@a1r383]

Joker played by someone named 'Joaquin Phoenix', anglicise it to read 'Joking' Phoenix, King of Chaos ascended from abusive childhood. Joaquin's REAL surname is 'Bottom' too...! St Joachim, father of Mary, before coming of Christ. Clown world opens opportunity for Christological inversions. Joaquin has actually played Christ in Mary Magdalene (Mary played by his real wife). Is this symbolism happens or am I watching too much Alex Jones? Also, the director echoes your point about other movies being treated as normal. kzbin.info/www/bejne/omm3p3Sieal_h6c

[@Alex80000]

A1R you can never watch too much Alex Jones.

[@brazilianman92]

What are you saying it's trying to convey.

[@neonpop80]

A1R Juaquin also means to erect or build as it is the Hebrew word Jakin by which the first pillar of Solomon’s temple was erected followed by Boaz which means “inner temple” so that both would read “raise/build the inner temple”. Juaquin Phoenix thus translates to “raise the Phoenix/firebird”. A name that in it means the birth of something that was destroyed. Such as the film implies on different layers

[@malisensei7959]

A1R Dude too much Alex Jones it’s just a name😂

[@a1r383]

@@malisensei7959 not that I'm drawing a comparison but you know most people in the bible are 'just a name' and yet full of symbolism.

[@berniejii3739]

I just saw the film about a year after your review. It's even more disturbing after the Seattle and Portland summer of love.

[@analyze077]

Omg you hit the nail on the head with the point about him NOT being racist and not being able to categorize him! 🙌🙌

[@SeltsamerAttraktor]

I can't believe that so many people missed out on the fact that it was deliberately left open whether Arthur is Thomas Wayne's illegitimate child or not. Near the end of the movie when Arthur looks at this photo of his young mother you can clearly see a love note written by a certain T.W.. They did have a relationship. And having his mistress put into a mental asylum and forging adoption papers is a really easy way for the powerful Wayne to make that little problem called Arthur go away. Nobody would believe a crazy woman.

[@RolfHartmann]

Quick correction: Thomas Wayne does not call poor people jokers, he calls the people calling for violence against the better off jokers, but cleverly this is shown as misrepresented by the press in the movie to stir up more unrest.

[@ratwood001]

The sanitation worker strike was great as well. What happens when blue collar men stop working? The city falls apart. Sanitation workers are another group of hidden people that society tends to ignore, up until it has a direct effect on one's life

[@KENTUCKYUSA1]

Without blue collar men, we are all dead!

[@GenerationX1984]

That's why the pandemic made me happy. All those self important and overpaid people suddenly being labeled 'unessential workers'.

[@naikhanomtom7552]

​@@GenerationX1984 It was very interesting. We quickly realised that the essential people in society are the ones paid the least and treated worst. Meanwhile, those with the big houses and huge salaries could stay off work for 2 years without anyone even really noticing.

[@pcwebbjr]

The Joker is desperately needed in today's identity politics, intersectionality infatuated, and mainstream media driven culture.

[@justinusberger3933]

Better get used to the idea of identity politics. Its the only thing that's going to save white people.

[@UBERLADEN69]

@@justinusberger3933 negatory! identity politics s pushed to divide and weaken various peoples who have lost their cultural cohesion and homogeneity. Look at this election cycle and the vaious Dem party "flavors"

[@justinusberger3933]

@@UBERLADEN69 Identity politics is inevitable in a multicultural society. Democracy in a multicultural society is nothing more than an ethnic headcount. Just look at voting statistics by race. If people like you didn't want identity politics in America you should have done something about immigration decades ago. White people have 2 options. Either get with the program and become a cohesive unit, and fight for our interests, or be consumed by the third world horde's who have been allowed into our nation by traitors. More Individualism is not what we need.

[@JD-ny3vz]

@@justinusberger3933 No racism and oppression created the need for identity politics which is now out of control. Also identity politics is not only on the left conservative white working class people engage in identity politics as well. Let go of this bullshit left vs right narrative it's all bullshit on both sides. Neither side works for us it's not the people at the bottom the poor, minorities or immigrants etc. It's elites on either side and in every side in America and throughout the world its always been the elites. They pit us against each other to maintain control don't believe the hype!

[@JonasAnandaKristiansson]

YES!

[@chiefofsinners5272]

Here's something from Francis Schaeffer that I think speaks to the "Joker" impulse. 'A question I would like you to answer on one of your broadcast talks if you could: with reference to what you have said about some artists destroying man, what should I do? I want to destroy too.' This student had touched the heart of the modern predicament. The desire of many young people - whether Mods and Rockers or university rebels - to destroy is the way they state their nihilism. At the bottom there is the valid question: if all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd, why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole make sense? The difficulty for society in handling them is that they are right, if everything is ultimately absurd, and their nihilistic conclusions are more honest than the romantic and semantic answers given by their elders... 'I would say to you tonight, that if we live in this intrinsically impersonal world, dress it up if you will with the word pantheism, either in the Eastern thought or in the new theology or if I speak of it in secular terms, if this is what I am, and all men are, with their aspirations, if this is all they are, unfulfillable products of chance, a sterile sport, then come beside me, because I wish to destroy too. If indeed these ideas are your ideas, you should stand beside such a man to destroy. If I am an artist I should wish to destroy. I should say with Karel Appel, "I do not paint, I hit". I should say with John Cage, "It is only chance"; with a resultant noise and a devilish din... 'This person who wrote this note understands something...but I would ask him also to be honest in considering the other possibility, that all this is not so, but rather that we started with a personal beginning and therefore there is intrinsic meaning to personality, my personality and other men's personality, in this universe. this is the distinction between the two positions. The things we have considered are not only theoretical things - they are things that cut down into the warp and woof of the understanding of life. We would say indeed to the man who will destroy a romantic concept which has no base, destroy it indeed. Demand a realistic answer. Here we stand face to face with the real issue of the new theology and the whole new thought.' This is the crux of the matter; either an intrinsically personal 'what is', in the sense of a creation by the personal God, or John Cages devilish din!" Francis Schaeffer, The God Who is There Page 89

[@MrStrocube]

Excellent thoughtful review. I think I need to see Joker again. So much to process. I think it is an instant classic and will be looked at as a cultural milestone in the future. Cheers

[@four-eight-zero5627]

I'm not going to watch the movie. If the director's intent was as you say, and the audience tried to project their political fantasies onto the Joker only to be let down, then good on him. I'm just getting sick of the politicization of everything. Too many rich white guys going around and harassing poor people on public transportation late at night. 🙄

[@four-eight-zero5627]

@UCyh7Xxv-XwSdkR9otDml3zA Sure. But I have walked way from the majority of the movies I've watched lately irritated and feeling like I've wasted my time and money. Nihilistic violence isn't my cup of tea.

[@Dangerous2099]

Is your comment a joke or serious? I honestly can’t tell. If it’s serious, you sound like an SJW.

[@four-eight-zero5627]

@@Dangerous2099 About the nihilistic violence? Me an SJW? Not even close. There's nothing virtuous about a man that loses his shit and decides to inflict pain on others because "society" (i.e. the man his mom was screwing) did the same to him. The people praising that shit sound more like SJWs to me.

[@abj136]

@@Dangerous2099 I honestly can't tell why you think he sounds like an SJW, or why you think he's not serious.

[@four-eight-zero5627]

@@aeternusromanus Haha! You have a point.

[@TwinAquarius484]

I wasn't intending on seeing this movie. But now I really want to

[@funkymunky7935]

You really should. It's amazing. Sad, funny, scary and deep. I can't recommend it enough. I can't remember a time when I've been so moved by a movie

[@copperspartan1643]

@@funkymunky7935 Personally, I couldn't recommend it so wholeheartedly. It is a well crafted film for sure, and often captivating, but at the same time the convincing portrayal of delusion, narcissism and nihilism just left me feeling sad and depleted. Even a little more dark humor, as with the midget scene, would have made more tolerable for me, (the climactic scene with Murray seems like a missed opportunity for this). Once Joaquin's version of the Joker snaps, he becomes a thoroughly unlikable character whereas, as I recall, Ledger brought some levity to it. Although he is ultimately a villain, the Joker should have a sense of humor at least.

[@malisensei7959]

copper spartan Well if you want to technical to be fair we only saw like 30 min of JOKER. The other half was Arthur Fleck.

[@TacticsTechniquesandProcedures]

"Everything Must Go" -- by taking back sunday

[@HelenOlivas]

Such a great analysis! And some great discussions on these comments as well. This movie is a masterpiece.

[@franciscomap75]

This is the most thoughtful critique of a movie I've seen in a long while

[@persjodin3407]

We truly live in strange times when movie critics blames producers for NOT making a character a racist.

[@FilterHQ]

Other examples of pulling the rug away: You think he is in a relationship with his neighbour...nope, imagined. You think he will kill the midget. ...nope, he lets him go (in the funniest scene of the film (strangely) You think he will shoot himself. ...nope, he kills Murray

[@copperspartan1643]

I thought it was pretty obvious that he was going to kill Murray when you see him realize that he is the butt of the joke. And anyway, the Joker has to survive his origin story for the next iteration of Batman that is sure to follow.

[@vazquezb2011]

@@copperspartan1643 When Arthur finds out Randall had betrayed him with the gun, I though: "you are dead, pal."

[@emirlsanchos6302]

FilterHQ Another trope subverted: When those young, rich men harassed that passenger on the subway, Arthur only sits there and laughs. It's when they set their sights on him does he fight back and shoot them. Driving home the a-political nature of his actions.

[@greenkestrel]

@@emirlsanchos6302 yeah but his laughter in that context has to do with his inappropriate affect issue. He's actually feeling very scared but it comes out as a laugh. That's how I saw it.

[@RC-hv1yx]

@@copperspartan1643 Nah. I don't see this Joker returning. This is a one-off film.

[@Zarysazane12345]

I want you and Jordan Peterson take on this!! Its amazing going back to see it again with my family this sat!! Excited just thinking about it 😁

[@shogunofharlem8240]

Heath Ledger's Joker was not the character of Joker as such but the epitome of nihilism as portrayed by Joker. Phoenix's Joker has the benefit of being in a character study which illustrates HOW nihilism comes to be portrayed by Joker. To me, this makes Ledger's performance, not through any fault of his, to be a shadow of a thing. This is a complete masterpiece, in all aspects of the movie.

[@amaxamon]

I totally agree. I call that movie Black Cape & Evil Clown. TDK just doesn't portray any recognizable version of Batman or Joker. This movie gets it right. What is horrifying to others is funny to Joker. He gets sharper when he stops taking his meds, too, a nice touch, I can see this version easily becoming the Joker we love to hate!

[@tomnorton4277]

I don't know which Joker is better. Joaquin's Joker makes you feel sorry for him but doesn't seem to be the insanely intelligent mastermind that Heath's Joker was. I think Nostalgia Critic's Old vs New review of Manhunter and Red Dragon has a great line for this. "It all depends on which you find stronger. The killer you have more compassion for or the killer you're scared to death of."

[@MattMusicianX]

This is by far the best analysis of The Joker. Quite enlightening.

[@MichaelMacAllister]

Fleck is also a German word/name and means 'stain'. That was my image but I think your's might be better.