How to find your axis tilt | why your tilt is important in bowling layouts

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[@wildgoobsid5]

New, 65 yr old bowler here. I’m learning a lot! Never knew bowling was so complicated. I’ve drill my my own first 2 bowling balls and am learning to hook them. Great fun so far. Thanks a million for your great videos!

[@BARBELLS-AND-BUDS]

All the Pro shop guys who do KZbin videos are willing to do anything to make the ball work for you. The ones in real life in my experience are not that way. Thanks for helping me figure out how to do this myself

[@SSA-de4py]

amazing how maybe 1 out of 10 pso guys invest the little time it takes to have repeat customers because they will find out eventually what needs to be done to lay out a the ball for a bowler based on the land conditions that they Bowl on. Once they find out the PSO didn't take any time they will not go back to that PSO again. I guess that's fine for psos that want to just drill conventional balls for old ladies in the morning coffee clubs.

[@BARBELLS-AND-BUDS]

If I was local Id go to JR Raymond@@SSA-de4py

[@wildgoobsid5]

That’s why I’m learning to do my own. Very successful so far. My local pro shop is open once a week and couldn’t care less about the intricacies of a bowling ball. So frustrated to start as a 65 yr old bowler I decided to do my own and couldn’t be happier. The guys on KZbin are fantastic!

[@BARBELLS-AND-BUDS]

@@wildgoobsid5 I drill my own balls now

[@jasont8354]

Thanks for all the tips... just started to get into bowling seriously again... I got a brand new ball and I really appreciate this channel.... now when I land in the channel I can blame you! But in all honesty, you've helped me identify some problem areas I have and I am grateful for that...

[@Grampa-el3kz]

That's the best axis tilt explanation i have seen. Thanks.

[@MasterGunz84]

JR great info on axis tilt... Thank You 🙏🏼

[@nordattack]

Thank you JR. you kept it nice and simple and very helpful. I am a Classic Full Roller. I have Zero tilt.

[@andrewbrakey6214]

Thanks for the info just a little more info in the tank. Bowling can be a complicated world if you don't know what you are doing. Ball layouts i wish i know more and this helps a little.

[@joshuapaugh8271]

i have around a 3 degree axis tilt possibly even zero so what pin distance should i be looking at

[@7mattga7]

I using 2ls layout system. I have really low axis tilt. Around 2-3 degrees. Is it the 1st or 3rd number that I should be making larger? Thank you

[@jameskrys5286]

What if you are converting from full finger house ball to fingertip your own ball?

[@alanring6990]

I have been to a few different pro shops in the Oklahoma City area, and one of them did check that for me before drilling a ball just to determine how to lay my ball out.

[@americaskitchentable107]

Who was it? And who is considered the best driller in OKC???? I just moved here and am looking!

[@alanring6990]

@@americaskitchentable107Anne Marie Duggan (former PWBA star) over at Boulevard Lanes in Edmond.

[@americaskitchentable107]

@@alanring6990 cool, she is actually redrilling a ball for me now for correct fit (5 year lay off) So I'm excited to work with her even more now! Thanks

[@fishgutz4272]

The pro shop married my PAP. I'm assuming they did the axis tilt too. I did find that the track moved close to and even over my thumb hole on recent balls. My guess is that my release has changed a little. Next time I go and the shop is open, I'll see if they can take measurements from a couple balls to see if the axis is the same regardless the ball.

[@aaronrose5118]

So what do you think about these specs? Pap 6 1/8x1 Tilt 4° Axis Rotation 70° Rev Rate 400 Ball Speed 17mph

[@jeffpelphrey3953]

JR, when you say the first oil ring around the ball do you mean the one closet to your grip? I have 4-5 rings. Thanks ahead of time.

[@Tenpindoctors]

Yes. Closest to your grip

[@joehoenig7596]

Hi JR...I have 33 degrees of tilt and 79 degrees of rotation! What sort of layouts, cores and covers would best help me? Thank you

[@zVask]

Idk about the layout, but a solid asymmetrical sounds best for you

[@chrishicks6890]

JR, my axis tilt has been measured by my coach, and its around 17 deg. My pin to pap is 4 5/8 over 1 up... is that pretty good?

[@seanmullins7009]

Chris Hicks Yes. That is the absolute ideal axis tilt. They say between 13-20* is the sweet spot your next step is to figure out your speed, your rev rate, and your axis rotation. If you know all of that stuff lmk and I can provide you with a few layouts for your entire game. I.e.(a benchmark layout, and heavy oil layout, a tournament sport shot layout if you bowl on any of those super tough and flat patterns, and I’d say lastly probably a weaker one for 3rd game during say league bowling when the lanes are toast. Lmk as much info that u can get if you want the help. I’m a pupil under Mo Pinel the legend himself so I promise your in good hands lol

[@CDownes1982]

Great info on finding your axis tilt, and explaining why it’s important, but you only casually comment on the relationship needed between high/low tilt and pin to PAP distance. Can you clarify for us...what pin to PAP distance (long or short) is recommended with low tilt? What’s recommended with high tilt? Thanks

[@seanmullins7009]

CDownes1982 I’m super tired so I’ll give you a VERY VERY basic answer here today and if u reply back I be sure to add more to it tomorrow. But first things first. The rules are very very different when drilling a sym or an asymmetric ball. But for now we’re goin talk sym because it’s much easier to understand and the quicker I can explain. On a symmetrical cored ball. Let’s say the bowler is speed and rev matched but with high tilt (between 20* and 33*) you are know going to treat this bowler as speed dominate at say 25 degrees of tilt. But if he or she has say 33 or higher tilt than you r going to drill for them as if they are EXTREEEEEMELY Speed dominant because the higher the tilt as said before the longer the skid phase and due to this the ball will never get into its final roll phase meaning horrific pin carry and an asinine amount of deflection through the pin deck. So for me in this scenario of the speed rev matched bowler but with say 33* of axis tilt. I personally would like to put them in a very strong early rolling pin position. I like my typ symmetrical benchmark layout for said suuuuuper high tilt bowler to be something between let’s say a pin to pap from 2.75”- 4” years But personally I enjoy the 3” and with VAL angles between 35*-65*. The 3 inch starts up a hair sooner as well as that it’ll still give you maximum flare. Yes, the same flare distance you would get from a 3 3/8” pin. The good news is max flare is going to act as a set of snow tires grabbing the lane surface and slowing the ball down which will be needed for any kind of consistent reaction. remember that high ass tilt is going to make you need something to slow that ball down from hydroplaning right through each transition. at 3” instead of 3 3/8” that’s just another reason why I’m sticking with my 3” pin to pap on symmetrical balls when tilt is greater than 22-33 we would be splitting grains of salt about 3 isn’t exactly max flair. Weeeeeeeellll I’m sure it will 100% still be receiving MAXIMUM FLAIR I mean at least within a 🍑hair for a symmetrical ball high tilt bowlers

[@IAmTheEggMan111]

On asymmetrical balls what are good layout numbers for a 20 degree tilt player? Let’s also assume a 50 degree axis rotation with 350 rpm on a house shot

[@seanmullins7009]

Typical Male need your speed too and I could get u exactly what u need

[@IAmTheEggMan111]

Sean Mullins - my avg speed is 15-16 on the monitor, depending on if I am bending it or playing straight

[@kevinricks8232]

Why does this ball still have a weight hole?

[@vance836]

If you have a high track (5.5 over to VAL from center of grip); will that automatically mean you have low degree of tilt (0-3 degrees) and someone with low track (3.5 - 4 over to VAL from center of grip) will have high degree of tilt (approx. 40 degrees)?

[@deadpolymers3416]

No. A longer PAP horizontal distance doesn't necessarily mean you have low tilt. USUALLY a long horizontal equals low tilt, but it's not automatic. I personally have a PAP of 6" over, by 1/8 up.... but I also have 20 degrees of tilt, which is firmly a medium title.

[@arod250mil]

My axis tilt is 20 and I followed your halo layout on a halo pearl. It’s been working great ! Our league shot is on the drier side. For a sport shot or a condition that requires the ball to startup sooner, what do recommend? Keep the longer pin distance ? I liked to be ready for nationals

[@SSA-de4py]

Generally you want to change your PIN to Pat distance and the size of your valve angle which is the last number in the Dual angle layout so you can adjust your flare with the pin to pap distance and if you increase the VAL angle (3rd Dual Angle #) the ball will want to roll sooner

[@rbailey225]

I know zilch about bowling science......I started throwing the ball incredibly wrong but have gotten pretty proficient with it. I have carried an average as high as 217. I was infatuated with throwing a hook but could never clear my thumb from the ball so I stopped using it altogether. I now bowl with just my two fingers and no thumb. My oil track at some point runs over the finger holes and over time does damage to the bridge. Can a ball be drilled to avoid this?

[@tonybarber420]

No. Quit using your fingers w no thumb only belmo can do that

[@rbailey225]

@@tonybarber420 Belmonte uses two hands. I only use one.

[@ajhowell2052]

Hey jr been watching your vids for a little bit now i think your commentary is a little to quiet my volumes all the way up and it's a little hard to hear

[@Tenpindoctors]

You're not the first to say that. I'll make an adjustment for the next videos

[@Lefishn]

Must be your phone cause perfectly clear for me

[@supertiki500]

What is the “ideal” axis tilt? I had this measured a few weeks ago but didn’t really know what to do with it. I believe my tilt is around 17°, but I think it’s more than that honesty

[@byronfranek2706]

13-20 degrees is generally considered the sweetspot.

[@MrABS369]

What is the key to lowering your tilt naturally? Is it that lower tilt bowlers are often more underneath the ball at delivery and higher tilt bowlers on top of the ball? Knee bend vs standing too tall? Hand/wrist position at setup and release or maybe certain way the performance fit is to allow for the natural aesthetics of that bowler's hand? I can visualize what lower tilt looks like when I watch fellow bowlers roll their pieces, but it's been harder to replicate that through my release. I feel it's more that I truly have not had the best of fits over the many years of me bowling. Nobody has captured the best performance fit in my opinion because I have picked up random pieces from others that have either felt better in my hand or even rolled better. I've always been in the lower 20° of tilt, but I have to manipulate the ball too much to try to lower it. Seems as it the pitches/span need fine tuning to satisfy what I want to see my bowling ball do on the lanes. I've laid my own equipment (not drilling though) for years based off of the higher tilt, but I definitely want to be in a much much lower bracket to help my ball read the patterns better. Thanks for all of the informative vids Mr. Raymond.

[@CrazyCatLady552]

Depends on the individual, but it's all about the position of your fingers at release. If they're more parallel to the ground, versus your ring finger being higher, your tilt will be lower. Keeping your wrist in a hard straight position vs cocked, staying behind the ball, getting your thumb out earlier, keeping your pointer finger further in, and releasing closer to the foul line (not lofting) are all things you can try. You can manipulate drilling span and finger/thumb pitches to produce more or less tilt as well, but 11-19° is generally considered ideal, especially when bowling on house shots. Tilt usually becomes an issue if you're low tilt with lower speed or high tilt with higher speed. My tilt naturally is the same as JR's, low. I can get as high as 11° without lofting, and as low as negative (not very useful lol). I'm lower speed, so bowling on burned conditions is a struggle.

[@MrABS369]

@@CrazyCatLady552 Thanks. Truth be told, house shots are my best friend either... surprisingly with my higher tilt. I've gotten mixed reactions over these later years as I've gravitated deeper vs my early years of playing nothing but down and in angles. I guess I've sought to lower my tilt to help blend/read the pattern better. That natural early read of the lanes versus me having to use surface or getting it into the friction sooner to read. I definitely don't bend as much as I used to and my pace on the approach is much slower (used to bowl off the edge of the approach to now being well above the dots closer to the foul line). Clearing my thumb better has always been an issue I believed or a feeling as if my thumb and fingers release together versus a defined feeling of thumb out, ball on my fingertips.

[@CrazyCatLady552]

@@MrABS369 Having tilt that's higher than "ideal" definitely isn't going to do you any favors playing deeper in the lane. With my low tilt and lower speed, I have to start between 22-25 generally, sometimes 30, to 8 at the breakpoint, and that's playing the inside of the ball with my hand fully cocked and index finger out as far as I physically can. If I use my natural tilt, I can't get anything through the midlane clean. It wants to pull back in around the 12-15, and I will not get the hold I need there. It sounds like fit may be an issue for you though, since you feel that your thumb and fingers come out nearly simultaneously. That will definitely kill your reaction. It took a bit of experimentation for me to find the right thumb pitch, shape, and size, as I have lupus and RA, and my thumbs twist to the outside. Now, it comes off so clean, I may as well not even have it in the ball lol. I've got more rev than I can match with speed along with the low tilt though. My tilt was never high, but it dropped even lower when I changed the thumb pitch. I don't know what pitches you use, but you may need to pitched more left (if you're right handed). Right pitch can make you come around the ball more with higher tilt, and left pitch generally gets you off the back of the ball more with lower tilt. I was using right and reverse in my thumb. Now I'm using zero zero. It depends on the shape of your hand and span size though.

[@MrABS369]

@@CrazyCatLady552 Definitely makes sense. Especially the thumb pitch assessment. I've always felt I needed more left lateral pitch but every ball seems to feel pitched opposite (right lateral). I know I've picked up other pieces from friends or when I would get things in trades years ago, and know that I've come across a few pieces that definitely felt more natural. But because they were not mines, I assumed that whenever I would get my own stuff drilled, the driller would notice that. But I have yet to have 'the best fit of my life' in all of my years bowling. Still searching for that and truly do believe that has held me back from more success. Do I have all the honor scores, yes, but honestly I would trade them all in for a chance to experience my best bowling ever with a fit that I was the most ever comfortable with that matched a ball motion I appreciated. Thanks again for all of the positive feedback.

[@CrazyCatLady552]

@@MrABS369 You're welcome. It was a journey finding the right fit. My pso watched me throw and knew the fit was wrong because I was locked into releasing it in a specific hand position if I wanted to clear my thumb. With the abnormal shape of my thumb, it took some experimentation though. First pitch. We knew reverse was what was making my thumb hang up, but that's due to the weird twist. I bought a ball that already had left pitch and zero reverse and just had the fingers moved to fit. I have a 4" span at 15lbs, so I have to move something. Then, my pso put the largest thumb slug in two of my balls so he could alter the pitch a bit without plugging. So I had all with zero reverse, one left, one zero, one right lateral. Played with them for awhile. Zero zero was best. Then shape/size. I went with an oval at 35°. It worked, but eventually ripped a chunk of my thumb off, so evidently it was hanging up lol (don't have much feeling in my fingers, so didn't realize until the aftermath). Wound up needing an oval measured after the twist in my thumb, which is 70°. Also need to custom taper them a bit by hand, so once I found the correct shape, I put IT thumbs in every ball. The difference is amazing. With reverse, I actually had to drop the ball below my hand at release to clear my thumb. I didn't realize that was wrong, so I kept doing it until I built the strength to hook it that way. Now that it comes off correctly, I have to constantly remind myself NOT to use that strength, don't crank it, don't close my hand, don't even follow through much, just let it roll gently off of my hand. And I'm still rev dominant. That's how much of a difference the correct fit made. It's crazy. I hope you do investigate a bit to find the correct fit for you. The fit I had at first was "correct" based on measurements, but it was not correct in real life. I should've known when I went to a ball demo (they use 0/0 pitch), and all of a sudden, I was striking. My husband asked, "When did you get this good?" 🤣 Good luck with it! I hope you find your fit.

[@fadino1786]

Hi JR. What would you recommend me to drill a ball like MOTIV Forge Fire if my axis tilt is 11 Degree and ball speed is 15 mph and Rev rate is between 325 to 350 rpm while my PAP is 41/2' to 5/8 Up?... I really need your help since all our PSO never ask about bowlers' specs when you ask them to drill your new ball, so I need your expertise please so so bad

[@Tenpindoctors]

I would be trying a 5" layout since it's a strong ball. Something like 55 x 5" x 55

[@fadino1786]

@@Tenpindoctors Thank you so much man glad to hear your response and appreciate the effort on those interesting videos you're doing. Very useful very

[@byronfranek2706]

Have you seen Athery's chart for benchmark angle ratio? wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Dual_Angle_Ratio_Guide

[@maxsanchez2339]

My pro shop guy is so frustrating to work with. He says pap, axis tilt, ball speed, Rev rate are all not important. He says he can lay it out without knowing any of that.

[@Tenpindoctors]

You’re pro shop guy is not the brightest crayon in the box then

[@maxsanchez2339]

@@Tenpindoctors I think he’s just lazy

[@Tenpindoctors]

@@maxsanchez2339 is he also someone that makes you wait multiple days for him to drill it and pick it up?

[@maxsanchez2339]

@@Tenpindoctors he’ll drill it right away but I think that’s because he doesn’t get a lot of business, understandably so.