How To Fix Tail Wag!

[@kitt28]

thanks for posting this, its nice to see rc Helicopter fix video, instead of those drones thats been taken over rc helicopters.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Thank you for watching! I try my best to keep the heli side of the hobby alive and kicking!

[@jaseholroyd2683]

Really appreciate you channel and set-up tips. I’m new into flying helis and am having all sorts of issues trying to get the right set-up. By watching your videos it’s helped me so much. Thank you for your hard work, wish I was in a better position to support you more.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Your very welcome! I’m glad my channel is helping you and you are learning! Just liking and watching the videos and sharing helps a TON!

[@Dynaglide92rc]

Excellent Video , On the job training is always the best . Thank you

[@57heeler]

Awesome stuff, I couldn't see a wag at all but this is great info thanks so much....keep stuff like this flowing on your page.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Thank you! I hope the video was helpful! It’s got a tiny kick not even a wag but not perfect to my standards!

[@steunsoul]

Thanks for the tip. I couldn’t eliminate the tail wag on my Raw420 and Logo550se, lowering the motor gains solved the issue 👌

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

You’re welcome! A lot of guys don’t know that Governor gain affects tail wag. I didn’t know either till I had a wag I could NEVER get rid of and a guy told me and I said no way! Lol yes way!

[@wildgoobsid5]

This reminds me of Ray’s heli tech videos (on dvd) that I used to first become skilled with rc helis. His main message was make everything “kissy, kissy” which always made me laugh.But he was right. Also Finless Bob for being a great teacher on video. Great stuff!

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Thank you! I try my best to teach things that are useful and helping. There is not enough of that anymore.

[@wildgoobsid5]

Exactly. You can never have enough help when dealing with RC helis and radios. Especially when learning. It’s a steep curve. You’re a very good teacher which is a special skill in itself (I was a shop teacher for 30 yrs. )

[@monicagundran5364]

Thank you Jeff! This helps me a lot on the tail wag! - Manny

[@Noopelito]

Hey Jeff! I appreciate the good video, really helps alot! Greetings from Sweden

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Hello! Thank you! I’m glad it helps!

[@HeliShed]

Some great advice here Jeff - good job and thank you for the contribution sir! I concur completely with your advice - 'Mech then Tech' for any problem like this.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Yes sir! Always start with mechanical set up and mechanical issues. Thank you for watching!

[@LichaelMewis]

I built my Trex 450L back in 2014 and flew it a couple times. It has tail wag. It has the Align flybarless Gpro gyro. I thought this could be the issue so I bought an Ikon for it. The heli and the Ikon have been sitting for nearly 10 years. I am now in the process of swapping the gpro for the Ikon. I'm hoping that will help but I'll also double check mechanics as you recommend in this video.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

I hope that fixes it too! The Align 3GX was a terrible FBL and probably the hardest and worst FBL to tune and make fly right. You will LOVE iKon and how easy it is to setup and make adjustments!

[@Danny-ge6bp]

hey there i am looking to add a fireball to go alongside my Kraken 700 and since there aren’t many good reviews and overview videos on the Fireball I would love to see you do a video on it! Love the channel and videos are always great!

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Hello! Thank you for watching and enjoying the channel! I can definitely do that! It’s a fun little heli. It’s definitely on the heavier side but a ton of fun to fly!

[@Danny-ge6bp]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 Amazing, I look forward to your amazing insight as with every video! It sure does look like a little rocket ship Heli! Can’t go wrong with SAB🙌🏼

[@allenpatterson3504]

GREAT INFORMATION thanks for sharing

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

You’re welcome! Thank you for watching!

[@UnravelledMoney]

Super informative thank you for this!

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

You’re welcome! I hope the video was helpful!

[@Garthinyus]

You really offer a great wealth of information. Thank you so much for that! I just ordered my first tail belt driven heli (raw 420). How much flight time should I allow before the "new tail tightness" will be gone?

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Thank you! I greatly appreciate that, I’m glad to help and share the information I’ve learned in the last 27 years. So normally on the RAW 420 I always say 20-30 flights. Some 420 tails are perfect from the start and some take 20-30 flights to break in and be super smooth.

[@Garthinyus]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 Thanks for the info! Hopefully when mine arrives it will be one that is already smooth 😎.

[@B66B-22]

Very good information and nice video Thank you I been flying few years I also had some tail wag as you said it will fix it Now the issue i had is Tail walk Can you let me know what causes and how to fix it The tail holds excellent but when i punch it kicks ( walks ) Because of those problems, i can't able to improve further I hope I can get further and do well...

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

@@B66B-22 I’m glad the video was helpful! What FBL and servo? Does it walk at all RPMs or only low head speed?

[@OregonMotorcycle]

I’m getting a wag on my new max. I think my linkage is a lil tight being new and all. I did shorten the rod to get a lil positive pitch at center and that helped. Do you size your ball links? OMP links are really tight. Tail servo is cold on the few hovers I put on it, but the cyclic servos feel a bit warm… Thanks again for these great videos!

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

I noticed with OMP there links are very tight. It will wear in after a little bit and that wag should go away. The cyclic servos do get warm! I could get them pretty hot if I flew back to back flights. I think it’s because they are mounted on the metal plate that holds the motor. So it acts like a heat sink.

[@OregonMotorcycle]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 yeah so yesterday I put 6 packs through it. The wag is almost gone. Heli feels amazing. I love it. One thing I noticed, which was weird, is the head being warm too after the flight.. Last night checking over things I realized the head is acting like a heat sink for the motor 🤣. I guess the servos are too;).

[@n411xbushpilot]

I just flue my new TB60 and the tail wages like a 6” at 1900 headspeed it get better at 2100 rpm almost everything loose the belts am ready to buy a different heli.maybe move the ball link down on the tail servo never had this kind of problem with my Ion X or tree 700 just getting back into rv again

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

@@n411xbushpilot is it a fast wag or slow wag? What’s your tail gain numbers? You can definitely try moving the ball in on the servo horn. Or move it out, depending on your setup. If you move it higher gain and if you move it out it’s lower gain. Also, are you running a governor in the FBL or ESC?

[@darrylcarpenter903]

Not a wag question but a tail blade placement question. Since tail rotors turn CCW, shouldn't the thicker side of the airfoil, be the leading edge? I've seen them both ways but I thought I'd ask an expert. Thanks.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Yes, the thicker side or leading edge is always facing rotation, thinner side or trailing edge is trailing rotation. The only reason it should be the other way around is if it’s a CW rotation tail witch is very rare unless it’s a scale heli.

[@bradfordcc3488]

I have Tail Wag on the Blade 230s_which of the PID's would adjust first?

[@adilsondejesus6694]

Amigo o servo de calda deixando em 90graus já fica configurado?

[@codyreilander9048]

Hey Jeff! Watched this video a few times chasing a tail wag of my own. You mentioned the esc gov potential causing a tail wag. When adjusting the gov gain would you adjust both the P and I gain or just one of them? Thanks for your awesome videos!

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Thank you for watching! Yes, governor gain can cause tail wag. So are you running the governor in the ESC or FBL? I would turn down both a few percent at a time.

[@codyreilander9048]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 thanks for the response! Currently running the gov on the ESC that the OMP M4 came with. I have the program card for it so I might play around with some adjustments and see how it responds at the field. Have you even ran into a situation like this before? When doing pirouettes using around 1/2 to 3/4 of the rudder stick (slow to medium speed) the tail pirouettes but it’s almost kind of notchy like the FBL is turning the heli in increments and not a smooth continuous motion. Almost like the finger on a clock ticking minute by minute if that makes sense. Wonder if that would be part of the tail wag Iv been chasing?

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

@@codyreilander9048 what FBL? What you are describing sounds like a bad tail servo. Or could be a bind in the push rod or tail assembly? Is everything smooth?

[@codyreilander9048]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 I’m running the Brain2. A bad tail servo is something that’s been on my mind, I went through the tail several times making sure nothing is binding. I actually bought a whole second tail with all new components and swapped that on to see if it changed at all but the condition stayed the same. For the price of a new tail servo might just pick one up and see. Doesn’t hurt to have extras.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

@@codyreilander9048 I would say it’s a servo issue. Especially after you said that, it was notching rotation, and not smooth throughout the pirouette. Look at the Torq Micro tail. Great price and great servo. OMP has had a bit of issues with servos and quality control on the M4.

[@very9000]

Friend, thanks for answering. Please tell me, when using V-BAR NEO, does the tail 🤏 wag a little when the helicopter 🚁 is hanging in place?

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Not sure I understand, way while the heli is hanging on place? Hovering? No, you should have no tail wag. You will have to tune the tail if you have wag.

[@very9000]

I ask you again. Does your helicopter's tail wag when the helicopter is stationary and not moving in the air?

[@very9000]

Hi. When changing the GAIN parameter, nothing changes. I assigned the GAIN knob to the transmitter, lifted the helicopter into the air and turned the knob to change the GAIN. I TURNS THE GAIN to the maximum value - 120 and the minimum value - 0, but I did not notice a difference in relation to the tail movement. Please tell me what is the reason, is this possible?

[@AllanG1914]

Thank you for this. I have a tail wag on a KSE that I haven't been fully able to get rid of I suppose the one difference with a three bladed head and tail is all the gains would be lower across the board? Including governor gains?

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

I would start with lowering Governor Gain, as well as your P IDs on the tail. Three bladed helicopters require much lower gain and more tuning and can be a little bit tricky to get perfect.

[@PFinkoloTL87]

Great info! Mine wiggles on spool up, but if I push through it, it' flys stable without wag. Main blades seem to be equally tight in their grips. Lower gain?

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Thank you! What FBL?

[@PFinkoloTL87]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 Brain2 in an Align 470LP, stock everything.

[@flyingllama3697]

Awesome Video with many great tips! However, I have a different problem on my Kraken 580 - I have high tail vibrations and my belt flops around alot, no matter the tightness. It also happens with no swash and Head mounted. This (i think) startet happening after a crash, after wich I swapped all shafts and spindles, which are all confirmed straight now. It also happens with just the spindle for the tails and no grips etc. on there. All bearings seem to be fine, I checked them a couple of days ago. I also have high vibrations coming from the motor (Xnova Lightning 4025 560kv), which I got serviced. Results of that came back perfect - however, my Brain tells me that there are high vibrations coming from the motor - with just the motor running, no pulley on the shaft. I ruled out the governor (ran it without the governor), tested different timings on the esc (YGE Aureus 105A) - all with no change. The guy I sent the motor to, also said, that he observed similar issues with a brand new Xnova-Motor just a few weeks ago - where the vibration analysis of the brain showed high vibrations, but the motor ran perfectly on his testbench. According to him, the shaft of the motor is also perfect, with just a few micrometers of runout. I paid for the service, so him just refusing a warranty issue or something like that is unlikely imo. My current thesis is, that the vibrations from the motor cause the belt to swing, which in turn causes the vibrations on the tail. I currently have no way to prove that thesis tho. Any pointers would be highly appreciated, as I couldn't fly this thing for 4 months now...

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Thank you! I hope the video was helpful! Hmm! That’s definitely a strange one. OK, so if the motor is good in the vents at all. Shafts are good. Check the motor plate, the main plate that houses, the motor plate/mount if it has a bend or twist in it, since the model was crashed. Wood causes the belts to be misaligned, which could in theory create a vibration highly unlikely you would really notice it on the belt wear or it wouldn’t stay straight on the pulley. Is there a brand or issue in the transmission housing? How bad was the crash? Also, how bad is the vibration? Enough to where it won’t fly

[@flyingllama3697]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 Thanks for your reply! The crash wasn't the worst, but still damaged quite a bit - the model lost all power at around ~10m height and then just fell to the ground. There was no power on the shafts though, the Rotor was almost stationary when it hit the ground. The motor and transmission-plate are fine. The Belt from the motor is also aligned properly on the pulley of the transmission. I think that the transmission is also fine - shafts are straight, it has grease in it, bearings seem fine aswell. Yes, the vibration (even without blades and grips) is above the "limit" that's in the vibration-analysis of the brain. With grips the tail gets really uncomfortable to hold in my hand. I flew it a few times, before I noticed the vibration - mostly on rather low RPM. In those few flights the dampeners for the tail wore out completely and are really squishy now.

[@LichaelMewis]

​@@flyingllama3697have you tried a new belt and replaced all rotational gears that connect from the main shaft to the tail pulley? With these bad vibrations and especially after a crash I would replace all rotational parts that connect the tail back to the main motor.

[@wildgoobsid5]

Hope this isnt a bad question. What flybarless unit are you using? How do you use your Tx to set gain . I use the software on pc for my iKON2 to setup, and Bluetooth app on my phone to adjust in the field. I’d rather use the TX.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

I use iKon 2 FBL. I always go in the radio and go under gyro and set my gain. If your running a spektrum radio and a SRXL2 you can get integration for full tuning with out the need for Bluetooth or the computer. I have a video coming soon on it!

[@wildgoobsid5]

Thanks. I am switching to Spektrum iX 14. This will help.

[@nickdean468]

On my power xl 550 it's not a wag issue I have it's more of the tail slowly moves to the right at mid stick im having a difficult time figure out what that could be. Tail will move to the right then when I hit right stick to center boom towards me it will slowly move right again with no input. I've tried increasing head speed no matter what it keeps doing it.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

What tail servo? Could be a bad servo that can’t find center.

[@izzfpv5628]

Hey jeff, do u adjust the governer gain first or adjust the fbl tail gain?? How do i tell if the governor tail issues??

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

I always adjust tail gain first, if I can they rid of tail gain no matter what I do then I’ll look at the governor gain. Governor gain normal is a chatter when getting hard on the collective but some helis (mainly DD) it will affect the tail wag

[@BODALLY]

Thanks for this I haven't flown mine yet to try the settings you told me to try . If that doesn't work I have a hobby wing 130a esc and the store.gov is default so are my p I gains what do I do if it still wags a bit with those gains thanks in advance from the uk .

[@very9000]

HI FRIEND. CAN YOU HELP ME WITH TAIL SETUP? MECHANICS ARE VERY VERY WELL SET UP. I NEED HELP SETTING P, I AND OVERALL GAIN

[@very9000]

Thank you. Have you ever used V-BAR NEO?

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Yes, I have many videos on Vbar, just posted one today.

[@very9000]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 Friend, thanks for answering. Please tell me, when using V-BAR NEO, does the tail 🤏 wag a little when the helicopter 🚁 is hanging in place in air ?

[@alanshearing7515]

Thanks 🙏🏼

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

@@alanshearing7515 you’re welcome! Hope it helped!

[@Edgecrusher28]

Stupid question, but what is your throttle/pitch curve in normal mode? I have never been able to setup that nice low speed headspeed hover.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Not a stupid question, my pitch curve in normal mode is 30-40-50-75-100 and throttle curve is 0-50-50-50-50 flat.

[@Edgecrusher28]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 Thanks for the reply, about what degrees is that pitch curve in normal?

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

@@Edgecrusher28 I run +13.5 degrees of pitch and around -8 degrees in normal mode and +/- 13.5 in idle 1 and 2.

[@craigcupit1917]

I love low head speed for practicing. Bring the gain up as the rpm drops, easy to do with flight modes in Edgetx

[@BinderDundat]

Hey Jeff. Thanks for all the awesome videos. Give me your thoughts on this. 6s Kraken 580, tail setup all done correctly, flight characteristics on the tail normal in all 3 banks, rock solid on the punch out. I’ve never had this happen before on any other model but in very high speed forward flight I am getting a high speed tail fluttering. Surprised something didn’t break. Was the first 3 flights on the machine. Haven’t had time to get it in the air again yet. What do you think? Governor gain issue. Generally I’m not flying at top speed but have to test the limits of the machine. 12s Raw 580 hasn’t done this. Both on Vbar. I built the Raw the Kraken was purchased as a BNF.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Hello! So normally that’s a high gain issue. What’s your tail gain in Bank 3 and what’s the RPM? What size tail blades, 95mm? It could be a high governor gain as well.

[@BinderDundat]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 Well it came with 570mm mains and 105mm tail. Switched it to 95mm tail today and it seems to be fine now.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

@@BinderDundat yeah, 105mm tail are to much on a 570/580/600 side heli for higher head speed. They will work at low head speed but but high will over drive the gain and cause what you where having.

[@jiawenbao3698]

I would lower the I gain if it wags like shown in the video. High P gain create fast and loud oscillation, high I gain creates slow wags. Either increase P gain or reduce I gain would eliminate the slow wag.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Yes, exactly!

[@Lance57H]

Hey Jeff! Hope you're doing okay, thanks for making this video as well. Will you be doing a build series on the new Raw 500 coming out? I'm really interested in that model and I want to know what your thoughts are on it?

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Hey Lance, I’m going good. How are you? I definitely plan on it! I should have one coming for a customer to build so it will be a full build series, of course. I also plan on purchasing one myself!

[@MASSARMS3]

@WestHobbiesRC Can a slow tail servo cause tail wag?

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Yes, if your tail servo is not a fast servo it will not respond fast enough and it will always try to catch up and wag as it can’t be happy.

[@MASSARMS3]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 Thanks. It is a very slow wag. I'm at 40% gain in my transmitter. I will try to increase it slowly and see what happens. If it don't stop, I will replace the tail servo.

[@joe-dp3ng]

Did you fix the porpoising on your other one that was running 14s?

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

I have an idea that should solve it. I won’t know till I fly it again! But I have a video coming out about it on Wednesday!

[@supramaniac502]

Okay, so please don't make fun of me for asking this and I am only asking because I'm trying to learn, but is this a solvable problem with a fixed pitch tail rotor? Direct drive motor with no actual physical linkage between head and tail rotors. The problem is most persistent when there is even the slightest of wind, and I suspect it is the gyro trying to compensate, but are there settings that I can input to the transmitter that might alleviate these symptoms? For context, this is a very nearly brand new helicopter (Blade 230S) straight out of the box, working with factory settings and running off of a spectrum DXs transmitter. I have been flying four-channel Helis for a number of years so I am sure I know the controls well enough but I can't get rid of that annoying tail wag. This is my first fully collective 3D capable helicopter. Thank you so much for your answer and your time

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

So unfortunately this video does not apply to motor driven tail helis. For your 230s it’s normal that they wag like crazy out of the box. Unfortunately with the RTF radio there is no way to get into forward programming and adjust your tail PIDs (gain of the tail) if you want to seriously get into this hobby look at getting a programable radio like the spektrum NX8.that radio will grow with you and fly any helicopter you can buy and build.

[@supramaniac502]

@@westhobbiesrc8051no no my guy, I have been seriously into this hobby for close to a decade. After a divorce and a theft from my storage unit, I find myself rebuilding. IOW, not having the 18 channel digital Spectrum transmitter that I used to have which easily ran my several four-channel helis as well as the numerous planes that I used to have, all of which required eight channels and up. All stolen. That said, I was led to believe that the transmitter that came in the box with the 230s was also programmable, however it does not have the digital LCD display like the 18 Channel. The only progression here is going from 4-channel to 6 channel 3D capability as far as helis are concerned, as well as my uncertainty about equipment (the transmitter) which I have not previously played with. Again, I appreciate your answer and your time.

[@dannyrc2010]

Hey can you tell me please what goblin 380 buddy tail gear ratio 21T what number for ratio do on ? Please thank

[@lev_on_heli]

Wow, what a hit. I have RAW 580, Brain2, HW 150 (and I use its governor), and a tail wag problem. Mechanics is fine. You said to try lowering internal governor gain - did you mean to lower gain in HW? Or did you mean the problem can arise if one uses Brain's governor?

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Yes, lower the governor gain. So if your using the Hobbywing governor then lower the gain in the ESC. If your using FBL gain then lower it in the FBL unit.

[@lev_on_heli]

@@westhobbiesrc8051Thank you Jeff, I will try that!

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

@@lev_on_heli you’re welcome! I hope that helps you!

[@lev_on_heli]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 I hope so too 😆

[@thechevysilveradotec]

So have a new build rs4 it’s like a tail twitch/wag will do it in hover and on flight . Everything mechanically is good. Gyro didn’t change much . I tried to rise tail gain stayed the same ? Any idea

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

@@thechevysilveradotec do you have 2-4 degrees of positive right rudder while the servo is at 90 degrees? What’s your distance on the servo horn to ball? What gain numbers?

[@thechevysilveradotec]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 the horn To ball is factory number and the servo is 90 . But your talking the horn and ball at the servo ? Gyro gain is back at 50 and I lowered it to 30 no change . It’s more like a fast twitch or pulse .

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

@@thechevysilveradotec try moving the ball on the servo horn in or out one hole and see how it does?

[@thechevysilveradotec]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 so just off the servo horn up or down one

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

@@thechevysilveradotec yes, go up a hole and try it and then go down a hole and try it. Mechanical adjustments, then add gain or take away if needed.

[@Twx97]

Oh man my raw is still on the shelf. I’ve just finished crimping the wires and now i only needs batteries

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Nice! You need to get that flying! The RAW 580 is incredible!

[@montytipton14]

I only get tail wag after i have completed my stick movement, its in my newest video. Let me know if you have any ideas

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Normally, that is because of tails stop gain ran too high so after you stop the tail, it will bounce back or wag. That is advanced tuning and your PID is of the tail.

[@montytipton14]

@@westhobbiesrc8051 i use the 6250hx, which letter of the PID?

[@MarkTurkel]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/e6KWon-IhtGWgKuIhank you for the video. After 2 days of "arrogance" I couldn't get rid of the tail-wag on my Tarot 450 DFC... I skipped the first thing you did in the video, which was check for stickiness and binding. This particular tail doesn't have all the ball links like the larger helis, and I had the screws just a bit too tight. Redid them, let the Locktite dry, and just went into the perfect hover! I kept thinking it was the Vbar... lol.

[@westhobbiesrc8051]

Vbar is great! Glad you got the tail wag fixed! Mechanical is very important!