How to Ruin General Grievous - General Grievous 2003 vs TCW General Grievous

[@juhapekkaruusala9038]

"I'll get you next time!" - Clone wars Grievous while running away from jedi "I'll get you next time!" -2003 Grievous while jedi are running away from him

[@jeremyallen5974]

"Yeah, right! Loser." - Filoniverse Clone Wars Jedi after Grievous runs like cheap mascara "I sure hope he doesn't return!" - 2003 Jedi Masters after BARELY surviving his onslaught

[@juhapekkaruusala9038]

@@jeremyallen5974 Clone wars version: "Kenobi! We meet again!" - Grievous "Sighs. Yes it appears so General." - Obi-wan 2003 version: "Grievous stare" All the jedi: Visible panic.

[@noivern1735]

​​@@juhapekkaruusala9038New Item achieved: The Soiled Pants of Grievous Victims (also tons of lightsabers, so totally worth it)

[@ChosenOne-il4bm]

You understand the micro series is stylistic All the Jedi are moving like super powers The series was meant to be stylistic like that Morons 😂😂😂😂😂

[@jeremyallen5974]

​@@ChosenOne-il4bmyour point being.... what, exactly?

[@Seminooos]

Another thing I didn’t like about TCW Grievous is that he talked way too much in general. In the 2003 Clone Wars he stayed silent for the majority of the time and it added to his fear factor and made him much scarier as a result letting his actions do most of the talking for him. Even when he did talk his voice was still much cooler and more intimidating and evil sounding than his TCW counterpart.

[@Flamingobread]

I agree on everything but the voice part.Minus the coughing I think TCW and ROTS have a better voice.

[@blacklivesorblackvotes2985]

@@Flamingobread nah, too generic imo.

[@willfanofmanyii3751]

@@Flamingobread Plus TCW and ROTS are the same voice actor.

[@InzaneMane]

@@Flamingobread Tbh I even liked the coughing haha I also liked his voice in RotS more because it sounded more metallic and sinister. But what they did with him the 2008 TCW series. Man, I have to say, I hate Filoni for that..

[@SUPREME_N]

didn’t almost everyone not talk lmaoooo

[@edgareliseev1773]

His character arc was also ruined. In Legends, he had a Padme situation in his early life with his first lover being torn to shreds before his eyes by the enslavers of his species with the body having been thrown into the water and Grievous not being able to get her back. Then, after he almost beat the invaders and beat them back, the Jedi and Republic sanctioned the shit out of his planet. This caused such a starvation that his 10 wifes and 30 kids to die, meanwhile in canon he was jealous of the jedi. That's all

[@Bumbulers_Bricks]

Wait, so that's not canon that his home world was enslaved? I thought that was why he hated the Jedi and why he had his body modified until he was powerful enough to defeat the Jedi. Also, why was he jealous of them?

[@NikoCigoj]

@@Bumbulers_Bricks nah i guess he was just a bit jealous of cool rock lifting powers. truly a character arc

[@hyperion3145]

​@@Bumbulers_Bricks It's canon to Legends, not sure if it still is since I don't think they touch up on Grievous alot.

[@Bumbulers_Bricks]

@@hyperion3145 I hope it's cannon, it's much better than the alternative storyline.

[@johndough6225]

​@Bumbulers_Bricks nah not "canon" anymore

[@shadekerensky3691]

Now in the case of Grievous, unfortunately, the moustache-twirling "I'll get you next time" cowardly villain is what George wanted out of Grievous (which I believe he says in the commentary of Episode III on the special features) though he did tell Tartakovsky he wanted a dangerous Jedi Killer when the 2003 miniseries was being made so the whole thing with Grievous is, unfortunately, a clusterfuck created by George not being able to make up his goddamned mind as he was notorious for.

[@JudgeHoldenUwU]

If that was the case revenge of the sith grievous would be as pathetic as the clone wars grievous which is absolutely not the case. It's mostly dave filoni's fault.

[@davidcauley9400]

@@JudgeHoldenUwU He is definitely pathetic comedy nonsense in ROTS

[@The_Butt_Cracker]

@@JudgeHoldenUwU Grievous in ROTS was most definitely even more pathetic than he was in TCW, lmao. Not exactly a high bar of course, but still.

[@ventris425productions5]

@@JudgeHoldenUwUdid you watch rots

[@tomardrax9802]

It makes sense plotwise for grievous to be so epic when he stepped on the scene and slowly seem like trash until palps sends the jedi/kenobi after him on geonosis. Part of why he was so scary at first was because of the unknown. The republic didn't know what to do with this monster. Then, after years of fighting someone, they don't seem so scary since you know what you're up against and can develop counter measures. The jedi dominated the mandalorians in combat for years until the mandos added jet packs, grappling hooks, and flamethrowers to their arsenal. After years of clones fighting grievous, they would have shared his strengths, weaknesses, and what they'd do if they got hands on the guy that butchered untold amounts of their brethren. Palps was also stacking the deck against greivous, waiting for the republic to gain enough victories for them to be confident before pulling the rug with order 66.

[@superzilla784]

2003: Oh shit... It's General Grievous... 2008: Oh thank god, it's only General Grievous.

[@Lord_Imperion55]

That’s not true at all any time I say grievous is clone wars I was not thank god I was to focussed on being happy he was in the episode I don’t care if he was weakened clone wars grievous is far superior as a character

[@nicolasacosta1673]

​@Lord_Imperion55 Na he's trash in TCW. He got shit on by freaking gungans he's a loser.

[@EmperorNapoleon1815]

One note: in the 2003 series, we see the aftermath of the carnage Grievous’ forces have wrought during the Battle of Hypori. Before he addresses the Jedi, Shaak Ti says “Never have we been outmaneuvered by droids. His strategy is without flaw.” This is what makes Legends Grievous so intimidating. He is a masterful warrior, able to go toe-to-toe with some of the galaxy’s best fighters (Masters Mundi, Secura, and Ti in the show, and Mace Windu himself in the Labyrinth of Evil novel). However, he couples that with a strategic and tactical brilliance outmatched by only the likes of Grand Admiral Thrawn. It makes him the perfect villain for the Clone Wars, and lends credibility to his reputation as a character. It truly is an awful shame we have not seen this potential of Grievous unleashed for twenty years.

[@jeremyallen5974]

"He (General Grievous) is the ruthless and capable right hand of the Confederacy." - Excerpt from the RotS novel

[@Daniel_Huffman]

You _know_ that you are a tactical genius if _Grand Admiral Thrawn_ is taking inspiration from you.

[@alpha77productions22]

One of the great things about SWCW: The council is an actual council where people come together to talk and listen to each other.

[@sheevpalpatine6466]

Nope. That thrawn guy is overrated af. Grievous is far more skilled and is more technical than that clown

[@antoniocanis6883]

Such a wasted chatacter with the best look of the series

[@Raptorman0205]

I don't think Grievous in Genndy's Clone Wars is too overpowered. Rather, the show largely shows Grievous in his most ideal circumstances. Count Dooku essentially it out for him when they're training. "You must have fear, surprise, and intimidation on your side. For if even one were to be lacking, it would be best for you to retreat. You must break them before you engage them." This plays out in both Genndy's Clone Wars and in RotS. The battle of Hypori is probably what people harken back to thinking he's too strong, but the situation could not be tilted more into Grievous' game. True, he took on a Jedi Master, several Jedi Knights, and a Padawan, all on his own. But they were all on fumes from the battle, confused, and scared. It's also the literal first time anyone significant in the Jedi order had faced him and lived, so up until that point, they had no idea who he even was. Plus, Grievous had an environment that favored him as well, full of dark corners and crevices to hide and strike from. Later, during the siege of Coruscant, he also largely has Shaak Ti in a panic and on the run, but even then, they still manage to get the better of Grievous a couple of times despite ultimately losing. In Revenge of the Sith, even without having his chest caved in, Grievous isn't presented with nearly as favorable scenarios as he got in 2003 Clone Wars. On board the Invisible hand, he overestimates his position, and Obi-wan/Anakin turn the tables and blow up the situation on the bridge. Thus, he retreats. Later on Utapau, it's way more of an even situation. True, Obi-wan catches Grievous off-guard, but he also has an entire battalion of Droids with him. He figures he can toy with his prey a bit and gun him down later if it turns south. Once the Clones arrive, the situation devolves even further, and thusly their fight devolves until they're literally just having a backyard brawl. Grievous is finally killed, but the fight overall was fairly even until Obi-wan managed to dispatch him with aid of the force. So, even if you take away the fancy over the top animations that are just inherently Genndy's style, I don't disagree with any of the outcomes with any of those events from a power scaling standpoint. He got the upperhand in earlier appearances when he had ideal situations, and managed to put up a decent fight in less ideal circumstances, even putting up a good fight against literal motha fuggin Obi-wan Kenobi. All rather consistent and fair imho. And Grievous lost due to Overconfidence and Sadism, not because of gross incompetence like in '08 Clone Wars.

[@weirdguylol]

one thing that is unfair is that Griveous couldnt use his 4 hand because of issues of animating them and they made obi cut them down early to save money

[@gabrielcarrasco9078]

He fought Ki Adi Mundi, Shaak Ti, Kayla Secura, and Ku Kruk. Two ther jedi to top it off. Two masters who were on the council. Secura who was a master. Ku Kruk who was a skilled jedi and highly resilient. Too much even if he caught them off guard.

[@alpha77productions22]

Grievous doesn't have the force so him fighting against Jedi is a bit weird to begin with. If you watch the movies Ki Adi Mundi is basically Jedi Nr. 3 after Mace and Yoda. Him and a bunch of other famous Jedi losing against Grievous is not really believable. Taking the movies as a reference where Kenobi wins the lightsaber fight with relative ease it makes even less sense. SWCW does some things differently. They have larger armies (wich make sense a lot of sense ) they have more extreme powers, basically they have a bit of an anime bonus. So that does make things more flexible and it fits the tone to have him be really strong. But in the bigger scale he is overpowered especially with George Lucas making him weaker in RotS.

[@IamCanadian3333]

@@alpha77productions22I don't even think he was necessarily "weaker" in ROTS. I don't even think Kenobi won "with relative ease" tbh. Also, Kenobi is a very different fighter than the Jedi that fought Grievous in the 2003 series. Kenobi is a lot more of a defensive fighter, hence his mastery of Form 3, Soresu, which makes him a near-impenetrable fortress, metaphorically speaking. It's the perfect style to counter Grievous, and it actually makes total sense for Kenobi to best Grievous here. Grievous's portrayal in Clone Wars is just unacceptable though, I do agree with that.

[@alpha77productions22]

@@IamCanadian3333 On one hand Grievous won against 5 Jedi in direct fight. That's not counting the guy he stomped at the beginning. 4 of them Masters, 2 of them council members. On the other hand Obi-Wan starts slicing of his hands withing seconds in a duell and Grievous flees. Obi Wan then had trouble defeating him only because he lost his lightsaber. So Grievous had no chance in a fair fight against Obi Wan and I think that's not proportional. Grivous also flees when he faces Anakin and Obi Wan on the invisible hand without even trying to fight them.

[@shadowking9739]

Good review. It reminds me of something I read on Deviantart called "the General Grievous Effect", where this guy highlights how in fictional media, mostly animation, there will be an antagonist that is initially portrayed as scary and competent but is later brought back as a stupid, clumsy, over-the-top and often comically inept villain.

[@percival086]

I believe TVTropes simply calls that "Villain Decay". "The Worf Effect" may also play a part in such situations.

[@kanaka118446]

What were you doing on deviantart 💀

[@shadowking9739]

@@kanaka118446 Writing essays on TV, films, and movies...and looking at anime waifu pics with tig ol' biddies 🤭

[@motor4X4kombat]

Say hello to venom

[@shadowking9739]

@@motor4X4kombatHello, Venom!

[@cjthehellspawnvenom6835]

2003 stays superior

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

Agreed

[@thejurassicking3817]

In what aspect. For grievous sure. But overall I think TCW wins out because of the quality of some of there best episodes and the amount of episodes compared to 2003. Let’s be realistic here.

[@Jedioutcast]

@@thejurassicking3817TCW is garbage

[@someguywithasword438]

​@@thejurassicking3817how is that realistic? The 2003 series had barely any episodes. While TCW had multiple seasons

[@alpha77productions22]

@@thejurassicking3817 I mean doesn't that make it clear that TCW is more of a quantity winner instead of quality? SWCW has 2 hours of footage, that is not even one third of a TCW season. Sure you can say that more content is better but SWCW really is fighting an unequal battle here and just how well it compares makes it clear to me that the quality of SWCW is better. We get so much in so little time. So here are some aspects for you: - Grievous talks about the war plan: Drawing Jedi to the outer rim so that they can attack coruscant. Cody says they have schedule for a siege to brake the enemies shield within three months. No strategy in TCW -In SWCW and the movies they make it pretty clear that the galaxy is huge and people don't meet that often. Padme missing Anakin because he has to go to war all the time is a theme in RotS and SWCW. In TCW they see each other all the time. In RotS Dooku makes it pretty clear that he hasn't seen Anakin since Ep. 2 but in TCW they fight each other multiple times. -Dooku is amazing in SWCW. He has power, he is noble but also charismatic like Christopher Lee. TCW Dooku has zero charisma imo. And there is barely a relationship with anyone. How did SWCW find the time to show us Dooku training Grievous but TCW didn't even though it's mention multiple times? If I remember correctly in TCW Dooku is just grumpy and Grievous keeps dissapointing him. - TCW doesn't know what the heII they want to do with Ventress and Maul and Savage and all these Bad guys who brake the rule of two - Ahsoka does not appear in any of the movies (fact). Maul died in Episode 1. - In Episode 2 they hint at Qui Gon living in the force and this idea appears mulitple times in SWCW and they show that Qui Gon is an important person to Anakin in Obi-Wan in general. Eventually he gets his story in TCW but before that it feels like they forgot about him. - People in TCW are anorexic - Huge armies and explosions in SWCW, they are just awesome. - In Episode 1, 2 and SCWC Anakin loves fixing and building things. He has his custom star fighter in SWCW and he fixes his robot hand himself. That side of Anakin doesn't seem to exist in TCW. They also show Anakins gift to Padme from Episode 1 that she is burried with in Episode 3 in SWCW. - SWCW showed us Jedi culture like the temple on Ilum and the jedi accolade and the council is an actual place where people talk. So many Jedi, even Oppo Rancisis has a meaningful appearance. - Awesome cinematography. The scene with the lightsabers in the rain is just beautiful. Anakin saying good bye to Padme from his starfighter too - Clones are professional in SCWC as they . Perhaps a bit shallow but at least they are not getting drunk like they do in TCW. - Jedi in TCW are too unhinged. Anakin and Ahsoka are mad all the time and the Jedi straight up torture Cad Bane (bruh). They have this narrative that the Jedi are rotten and it just goes too far. That's not what Star Wars is about. My Conclusion: SWCW is a cartoon and sometimes it's a bit goofy but it fits the movies and the general Star Wars vibe way better. TCW feels like a sit com sometimes. Ahsoka and Maul are squeezed into the narrative while SWCW takes genuine effort to tie in with the movies.

[@Pigeion]

Disney: “doesn’t want to kill children” Disney with the kenobi series: *shows them getting brutally getting cut down*

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

So much death in Star Wars but it does depend on the show. Some show it another do not.

[@jeremyallen5974]

Also Disney: *shows Bozo-Katan and Deatwatch BURNING CHILDREN to undermine her sister's attempts at maintaining neutrality in the middle of a GALACTIC CIVIL WAR*

[@scotthenglefelt2893]

@@jeremyallen5974that was before Disney

[@megaman37456]

@@jeremyallen5974 Yeah that was WAY before Disney.

[@angerami77]

They showed Vader snaping a child neck

[@josephsuh525]

2003 Grievous: crushed a Padawan, killed 5 Jedi Knight, beaten 3 Jedi Council, easily slaughter the Clones of Legendary Bounty Hunter and a former Mandalorian including the Senate Guards, and has both brutal yet honorable coolest warrior Villain. 2008 Grievous: lose to a Padawan, always running away when losing, got beat up by a gungan, never seeing him killing a single Jedi Knight, and being a complete cowardly looser screaming like every Saturday morning Cartoon villains.

[@sordman2]

Grievous kills Nahdarr Vebb and defeats Adi Gallia and Eeth Koth in combat. He also defeats Obi-Wan in combat in the unifinished (but canon) Crystal Crisis on Utapau story arc.

[@Raving_Rando]

@@sordman2 Then lets Obi-Wan live, because villain letting biggest pain in his butt live to "make him suffer" only for biggest pain to inevitably escape cliche is cliche.

[@ledanoir1239]

We kind of see grievous stategic mind in 2003, tho: after he is intrioduced, we see a great Separatist ofensive, and hear the jedi council worried. Later, when he trains with Dooku, he says that the strategy of sprrading the jedi through the galaxy was effective, so now they can attack coruscant, although that was probably Sidiou's idea anyway

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

Yeah I see what you mean but it seems mainly in battles not in plots but it is because the media is not long enough.

[@JudgeHoldenUwU]

​@@starwarsgrandmoffthe jedi literally state how grievous managed to out maneuver them and push them into a corner with Droids and how that has never happened before to them. They also call his strategy perfect and he himself unstoppable. He also perfectly takes dooku's advice to break them mentally by putting fear into their hearts and stalking them like they are prey before attacking them with a surprise attack. His only purpose are to hunt jedi and be the general of his army and he showed great strategy in both of these areas. So I don't he definitely deserves more than a somewhat when it comes to strategy.

[@gdawgmainguy17]

I would say, in favour in 2003 Grievous, you can see his strategic and devious mind in the way he fights. He's very, very unorthodox. He fights with his feet, switches hands in the middle of combat, flashes and shows off whenever he can while all the jedi are tense and shaken. You can say it's gloating, and yes, you're 100% right. He is gloating, and he's doing it not just to feed his ego, but to screw with the Jedi. His fighting style is sending a clear message to them: that he knows what he is doing and he's going to kill you in a way you don't see coming, and that message is really messing with their battle focus. How can you win a fight if you don't even believe there is a chance? That is the chess move Grievous is making, breaking their spirit in the middle of combat so that they can't keep their resolve and make mistakes all over the place.

[@generaljashin8067]

True. Not even mentioning that Jedi learn specific fighting styles. They expect their opponent to use one of those fighting styles as well while in a duel. Having an opponent that constantly switches between styles or even worse, doesn't fit into any of them, will definitely throw Jedi off and put them at disadvantage.

[@metaknight115]

I can 100% agree with this, except for one point Grievous was not badass in Revenge of the Sith. He ran away from his first fight, and got his ass beat in his second and last fight, which he spend most of running away.

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

True, but in the first fight he is against Obi Wan and Anakin. Who is going to win a fight against those two? And to be fair to him by smashing the glass he almost did win. The General is always more interesting in survival than winning he is slimy in that way I agree. But he did almost beat Obi Wan which is no mean feat.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

I wouldn't say he ran away from the first fight. The ship he was on was crippled and failing, staying would be dumb. Similarly he runs away in the 2nd fight because of the wider battle. Notice when the clones are no longer in the immidate facility of the fight, he chooses to stay and continue the fight rather than flee when he has the opportunity, (which results in his death). Both are examples of him making the tactically correct moves. Leaveing when factors outside the lightsaber fight have too great a say in the potential outcome.

[@Electures_Ksk-26]

@@matthiuskoenig3378 He is the commander of "the greatest droid army the galaxy has ever seen!" first, and warrior second so yeah, I agree that those weren't as much him being coward as it was him making the right decision, strategically speaking.

[@alyshasemler-baltzer6754]

I guess meta knight Has a good point

[@valou-scaling]

I fully agree with what is said here, except for two points : 1. Grievous was actually a joke in ROTS too, always running away, never scary or anything 2. Grievous in TCW is probably stronger than Kit Fisto. His medical droid tells him he is still too weak to fight, and yet the general refuses to rest and goes after the Jedi. In better conditions, he would have probably killed him. Still doesn’t excuse the fact that he is never menacing because he loses every single time, but it can often be justified, still making canon Grievous an overall pretty powerful character

[@cumbrap]

I've only watched the first season so far but TCW did a lot of the villains dirty, how does Dooku get captured by a bunch of dirty space junkmen?

[@EmperorNapoleon1815]

Indeed, and Dooku has the most favorable villain portrayal outside of Palpatine, who actually IS (reasonably) shown as untouchable.

[@tayyc]

It's garbage

[@scotthenglefelt2893]

The pirates also captured Anakin Obi wan put both grevious and maul on the run this dude will do anything to make a profit. Dooku was powerful in TCW that was the only time he was defeated and didn’t even fight.

[@cumbrap]

@scotthenglefelt2893 Anakin and Obi Wan I can imagine wouldn't want to escalate the situation but Dooku would have fried the whole crew with one hand like it was nothing. I don't think they had some force-nullification field or whatever

[@scotthenglefelt2893]

@@cumbrap really then why didn’t he do it yes he used the force why didn’t he do it because he doesn’t want to kill people doesnt create genocide like Grevious did with the nightsisters.

[@alfred2744]

I hate how sharp his design is now. In 2003, he was sleek and the edges of his suit were rounded, something typically ascosiated with heroes and not villians. So you never ever knew his intentions even though he obviously wanted to kill the Jedi...

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

True

[@alfred2744]

@@starwarsgrandmoff W- wait... THE CREATOR HIMSELF?!

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

I have come down from the heavens! 🤣🤣🤣

[@alfred2744]

@@starwarsgrandmoff BOW DOWN TO THE MIGHTY KING, FOR JESUS IS HIS BROTHER! BOW, KNEEL! BOW! PRAY FOR THE MIGHTY KING

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@abstraction6212]

TCW Grevious can also epitomize the squandered potential of the cis battle droids army

[@jeremyallen5974]

They DID have their time to shine against the Night Sisters of Dathomir but we were denied the glorious bloodbath so Disney could play 'will he/won't he die?' With Count Dooku

[@abstraction6212]

@@jeremyallen5974 ah okay well at least they redeemed him late rather than never

[@Ale-dd3ek]

​@@smugplushDisney Is able to trascend time itself 😂

[@megaman37456]

@@Ale-dd3ek Yeah, about as well as they can write good Star Wars/Live action movies.

[@ryankwon8785]

Mace crushing Grievous’ lungs made the transition to his Revenge of the Sith voice, coughing, and being less acrobatic reasonable.

[@موسى_7]

But why the Slavic accent?

[@ryankwon8785]

@ I think Grievous had to resort to using a softer and direct accent to lessen the pain to his lungs. He can no longer speak normally and directly.

[@thebatmanofneo-gotham5667]

Clone Wars 2003 Grievous was literally the peak of his Legends continuity version. He was strong, fast, skilled, terrifying, and straight-up GOATed. Clone Wars 2008 Grievous is a pathetic clown. How can you fail to kill mere Padawans and Gungans? Like, DAFUQ?

[@bruv2249]

despite jar jar being stupid, gungans are actually really formidable and fierce, thats why naboo is scared of fighting them : they are a real threat if forced to be

[@Dark-qn1br]

Bro I love how grievous can take of the entire high council in 2003 yet struggles with younglings in 2008 clone wars

[@abstraction6212]

filoni took the idea "Mustache Twirling Villian" too far and made so many other MTVs in media way more compotent than him.

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

Agree completely

[@FriendlyBatDoom]

Well to be fair to him it was George Lucas who wanted the mustache twirling Grievous.

[@joshuaslawson9125]

​@@FriendlyBatDoomLucas wanted it, sure, but it was ultimately Filoni's fault. Lucas gave the idea, Filoni did the poor execution.

[@starflame34]

There was a "Director's Commentary" in the Volume 2 Clone Wars (2003) DVD where Tartakovsky, the creator and director of said series, explained where he was told that George Lucas wanted a seriously dangerous Jedi killer, but later on changed it to the mustache twirling villain who always gets away. Tartakovsky believes Lucas was still not 100% set on what he wanted Grievous to be exactly and maybe he thought the whole super serious "Jedi Killer" was too much for a film series made for all ages. I know that sounds hypocritical when making the final film where Anakin murders a bunch of younglings, but this is George Lucas after he a made a million dollar franchise so he probably didn't care.

[@IamCanadian3333]

"where Anakin murders a bunch of younglings" Even with that, they never actually show that.

[@Destroic_]

​@@IamCanadian3333O they show that in the fucking movie in the part when obi wan and Yoda watch the recording of the Jedi temple and they fucking see Anakin kill the younglings one for one in a hologram

[@IamCanadian3333]

@@Destroic_ Those weren't younglings, those were adults or teenagers. Still not great mind you, but that specific hologram did not show the audience "killing younglings."

[@SNAKEAT3R]

False information 😂

[@SolomonMagnus819]

Grievous fights Obi Wan far too frequently in TCW. In episode III, he gets Obi Wan off-balance when dueling him by spinning his third and fourth arms. That wouldn’t catch Obi Wan off guard if Obi Wan has TCW levels of experience combatting him. Also, Grievous has computer learning, so the Jedi Council purposefully avoided matching the same Jedi against him multiple times, such as when they avoided letting Windu fight Grievous as they were worried he would learn too much by fighting Windu and would become too dangerous

[@Darth_Iblis_Goetia]

Tbf I think a lot of his encounters with grievous in TCW were coincidental barring a few. Or if not then maybe it was a matter of who was available at the time given all the fronts in TCW. Plus on a holistic lvl of all clone wars media kenobi has a tendency to fight the top brass of the CIS a lot for some reason (he has fought grievous, durge, and Ventress all several times, that record in it of itself is an outlier)

[@jacobpartin4553]

2003 clone wars was the reason he became my favorite character. You cant beat the introduction he was given

[@qwefg3]

the 2003 version was scary, strong, and more importantly had his weaknesses show and revealed. He was cocky. likes to toy with his prey, and even stated that his advantage was stealth, horror and speed, but if he ran into a straight out fight with a jedi master he would probably lose. This is why it made sense for him to lose (despite people joking that he would have died if it was the animated version) to Obi Wan as in that fight it was Obi appearing, setting up the fight, and utilizing the force to duel against someone who had a few of his organs crushed thus the coughing... a recent and not fully recovered battle wound. It is also why the TCW version was less liked... less combat, less fear, mustache twirling prepared, and worse of all... it seems like everyone else is better than him. It is roughly the same reason why people are annoyed with the live action version of Thrawn... every other version states he is a comptatent and dangerous villain... and yet the live action version just has him blundering every step and then barely escaping as he flees from two female jedi and their token male sidekick. Every other version had the heroes escaping Thrawn viewing it as a difficult fight and the live action version has them laughing it off as they let Thrawn escape and possibly doom their galaxy... I call it... the Nerf Effect! If the heroes don't fear them why should we?

[@m.taylor2155]

2003 Grevious was an entirely different beast. The man was a terrifying legend and he deserved more.

[@camhedmr_5593]

Lucas literally turned Grievous into a f-ing sunday morning cartoon/low end anime villain that's just the punching bag for the protagonists to play with because "he was overshadowing/too similar to vader" which just makes Grievous NOTHING he was supposed to be in the lore, and Filoni is just so idolizing Lucas to dare do anything about it. Even R3-S6 is more menacing than him. A F-ing astromech was more of a stake than the supposed stake so high the people of the galaxy would rather lose their rights and liberty against Grievous was in the lore. You see grievous, you know the massive sucker(he was even designed to look like a big lollipop in TCW) has enter the scene to be owned by the great protagonists.

[@NikoCigoj]

,,designed to look like a big lollipop'' you dont gotta do him dirty like that 💀💀💀

[@jillianefaithcobre8637]

Yup, not anime villains are like this, they’re also silent too. But most of all they, HAVE character development!

[@camhedmr_5593]

​@@NikoCigojI didn't. George Lucas did.

[@NikoCigoj]

@@camhedmr_5593 yea true

[@joshuaslawson9125]

​@@camhedmr_5593except George was mostly the idea man, sometimes, Filoni doesn't even care about Lucas's vision, because Lucas, for obvious reasons wanted Ahsoka to die before RoTS, but Filoni just couldn't kill his OC.

[@justadummy8076]

They should’ve created a new character to serve the purpose of reoccurring villain of the week, whereas Grievous would be saved for more “successful” Separatist campaigns

[@hyperion3145]

The Dark Horse comics is where he's at his best; he's so competent and has won so many battles that he's almost bored of it and even dares people to try and beat him. He almost comes off as an old gunslinger.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

I like 2003 grievous alot. Now all other characters were toned down in strength compared to their 2003 depiction thus its only right grievous was too... But TCW depiction goes way too far. It doesn't make sense that the council and Republic would put so much importance on someone who basically never wins. And it certainly doesn't make sense someone who can't defeat clones and padawons would think they are able to duel a jedi master and win.

[@1God1Fury]

General grievous position as supreme general of Separatist army what makes importance of his capture/elimination in the story

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

@@1God1Fury except if he was a bad commander as depected then it would be detrimental to remove him as someone more competant would replace him.

[@spartanwar1185]

fr, "don't interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake" type of deal with TCW grievous

[@LegioXXI]

" It doesn't make sense that the council and Republic would put so much importance on someone who basically never wins." The thing is, this dosen't just apply to Grievous, but to Dooku and even the CIS as a whole too. You basically see the Republic win all the time, and yet we are made to believe that this war is the biggest and deadliest since The Old Republic and making the senators and citizens of the republic so desperate, that they approve massive militarization and later dictatorship. None of this works without having an actual threat. It is to this day the biggest flaw of "TCW". It also dosen't help that the droid army is used as comic relief most of the time.

[@Suhoputnaya_Akula]

My comment is long, so mentally prepare for this... I had never been a Grievous fan until I got acquainted with the animated series of 2003. Despite the fact that in Russia all Tartakovsky's creations were duplicated back in the 00s, it was *"Clone Wars"* that we never showed, therefore, I did not know about him until 2020. Now this is one of my favorite characters in general. I like almost everything: appearance, behavior, fighting style, voice, moral principles. Only 2 little things and the separation of hands confuse me in it (it's not fucking necessary, because without it he fought superbly and beautifully): 1) It was still worth drawing four-fingered hands; 2) On "pelvis" with 2 magnetic arcs are needed, each of which would fit 5-6 lightsabers, moreover, 2-3 places out of 10-12 should be free to new trophies. Now about the idea that "Star Wars" missed. We've never been shown Grievous BEFORE cybernization, so why not pack it up? Kalish culture is a mixture of cultures of Eastern Europe and Western Asia in the Middle Ages. Fauna of Kali consists of reptiles. And now imagine: - Lightly armed warriors on abelisaurids (how dzhigits); - Heavily armed warriorsbon on ornithopods (how lithuanian knights); - Senators with pelicosaurs as a luxury (how kings and queens of Rus'); - Merchants with cynodonts as carriers (how turech merchants); - Traveling killers and thieves with pterosaurs, gorgonopsids and amphisbenes as aboveground, ground and underground hounds (how arab nomads); - Children with turtles as pets-guards, ect. Musical instruments and music can be created on the basis of those already existing in Eastern Europe and Western Asia; the same can be done with weapons. One can develop the idea that the Lus-Ma style appeared on Kali, separating from Ataru and specializing in fencing with the help of legs. This means that the forsyuser could fight with 1-3 lightsabers (1 limb should always be a support). It was invented by the first kalish (and the only female) forsuser. She used 3 lightsabers - orange, purple and green, which emphasized her neutral position. The following forsyuzers will appear with an interval of several centuries. The second was the sith Xivhkalrainik (Xalek), who used a two-bladed lightsaber and lightning bolts. The third was also a sith, but without a right arm and left leg, who walked with a cane, and fought like a Traya - he controlled a short lightsaber with the help of Force. The fourth was a jedi (the only one) with one yellow lightsaber, whom other masters scolded for preserving the memory of the kalish-sith on Kali, despite his incredible devotion to the Order. He was born a couple of hundred years before the Hack War, and during which kalishes will remember him, saying that if he were alive, he would never have allowed the Jedi Order to lose the atrocities of yam'rii. It is with the teachings of these forsyuzers that Sheelal will complement the teachings of Count Dooku. Hack War and the genocide of the kalishes need to be shown in all horror - the male population was made slaves, and the female population was immediately killed, since the yam'rii did not consider kalishess' useful even for escorts. It is necessary to show how Qumaen, from a simple sniper of noble blood, became a kagan (supreme senator), how he met and lost Ronderu lij Kummar (without confessing his love), how he became a loving husband for 10 wives and a caring father for 30 children. It is interesting to show the relationship between kalishes and other races enslaved by yam'rii. Arthropods (let them be arthropods) from the neighboring planet, Abbaji, suffer from massive pollution of the earth due to coal mining. Amphibians, fish or shellfish suffer from massive water pollution due to oil production on a planet with shallow seas. Humans suffer from massive air pollution due to gas production on a planet with broad-leaved forests. Beasts suffer from a sharp increase in temperature and melting of ice due platinum production on a cold planet. Intelligent droids are considered free walking iron ore for yam'rii on a planet-landfill, etc. They are all united by one goal - to gain freedom. It can show a planet that has hardly suffered from the yam'ria, and the locals do not want to take part in the liberation revolution. It can also show a tiny opposition that makes up less than 95% of the population, whose struggle against the colonial monopoly is treason, and which informs the army of kagan Sheelal. And when this multi-racial company went on the Hack, the mantises pleaded for help to the Republic, and she forced Kimaen to capitulate. And then everything is familiar: the return to the colony status, huge reparations, the acceleration of the extinction of the kalish, the death of almost all the wives and children of Sheelal, the explosion of the ship, the blackmail of the separatists, cybernization, unsuccessful transfusion of jedi blood, Dooku training. Can show some interesting moments: - During the operation, the "unnecessary" parts of the body are destroyed in an acid tank, leaving only the upper part of the skull, heart, lungs and some blood; - Qumaen's reaction to his new body and to a number of prohibitions (can't fly to Kali, can't meet and communicate with kalishes,can't take Izvorsha as assistants, etc); - Study of basic and individual styles; - Killing several jedi on Geonosis; - Victory over Asajj Ventress and Durge, obtaining the status of General; - The first major mission is an ambush at Hypori. The season can be finished as follows: *Daakman Darrek contacts Obi-Wan Kenobi and reports on the failure of the mission to Hypori, simultaneously fighting off B2 shots. He asks to immediately take the Jedi off the planet, because they are being hunted by a new droid general. Grievous suddenly appears and cuts the Jedi in half. The device drops out and dead hands, rolls and returns the connection. Kenobi summons Barrek, but the white duranium leg crushes the device. The credits are rolling, Classic Grievous Theme is playing against the background.* It would have turned out to be a season-spinoff-prequel in the 19th episode of *"Clone Wars"* or another cartoon. I have more to write about General Grievous, but during and after Clone War. If you're interested, I'll write about it later. I just want to know if foreigners are interested in my line of thought? I have previously written similar in the Russian segment of KZbin and VK, many liked it.

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

Wow it is very detailed! Thanks for the effort you care about this a lot it is clear to see. You should make your own videos about it and do a video essay 😊

[@christopherbravo1813]

this sounds legitimately interesting! I'm honestly sad that I don't speak Russian, as I don't think we'd be able to discuss your ideas in that great detail using only English.

[@Suhoputnaya_Akula]

@@christopherbravo1813, thank you. Of course, I reviewed a few of things, but these are small things. I don't know English perfectly, but I know enough to use it. In fact, I imagine this story how prequel to another project taking place at time of Clone War. I want to focus on few jedi masters, sith, droids and anothers.; to minimize the presence of Obi-Wan, Anakin and Ahsoka, because they have already been given too much time. At the moment, I have more thoughts about antagonists than protagonists. Grievous will have to share the company with Darth Tyranus, Asajj Ventress, Savage Opress, Pong Krell, 1-2 new sith, Genaral Kalani, a disciple from the planet Abbaji (it and Kalee are in one system), group of droids OOM-series under command of B1-224. I want to write about Savage and Pong... I often hear that Savage doesn't need to be developed as a character, because he can't beat Darth Maul, the older brother. And I want to give 2 examples in favor of fact that Savage can be better than Maul. *Mortal Kombat* Be are 2 Sub-Zero, 2 brothers: the elder, who was very strong and cruel, but killed and later became a Noob Cybot; the younger, who became stronger and kinder than his brother, but in one version became a cyborg. And no one is outraged about this. *Tranformers: Prime* In one episode of first season, appeared and died Skyquake, a very strong and loyal warrior of Megatron, later was revived in the form of a terrorcon (robo-zombie) and accidentally locked in shadow zone (like a ghost world). In second season, appeared and dead his twin Dreadwing, who felt the death of his brother and flew to Earth. He is no stranger to honor, which is why he repeatedly helped autobots, but he did not join them; he was also disappointed in decepticons, wanted to kill only Starscream and leave Earth, but was shot by Megatron from his own cannon. Dreadwing was given a chance, and it turned out to be much more interesting than Skykwake. It follows from this that Savage can turn out to be more interesting than a Maul if it is developed properly. About Pong another comment...

[@Suhoputnaya_Akula]

@@christopherbravo1813, I through about how life of Pong Krell would have turned out if he had existed within the framework of the Tartakovsky animated series. Imagine that he had to meet with Grievous or one of sith in Umbara in order to finally switch sides of the conflict; while the clones are shooting at each other, he meets with a trusted person and leaves the planet. Further, besalisk acquires orange and red two-bladed lightsabers, instead of blue and green. Expecting to become disciple of Dooku, he is surprised that the old sith preferred Grievous over him, Asajj Ventress or Savage Opress. The sith (all of the above and possibly 1-2 new ones) do not like their situation, and one day they decide to eliminate cyborg together. There is a fight similar to Grievous' fight with the jedi at Hypori, from which Qimaen comes out victorious, since only Pong is at the master level. After crippling the enemies, kaleesh automatically claims who is in charge here, and takes the lightsabers from the defeated. By the time of Order 66, the sith will face the fate of the jedi. And here you can come up with the following: Pong Krell personally surrenders to Darth Vader, thus saving my life. Some will call it betrayal and cowardice, but what happened to all of Pong's colleagues by the beginning of the Empire's rule? Here's what: 1) Jedi - almost all are killed, many are hiding, some are broken and made low-ranking siths; 2) Sith - the same, but in units; 3) General Grievous - missing; 4) Clones - became homeless, with the exception of a few of the most experienced (Fordo, Cody, etc.), who became instructors for stormtroopers; 5) Droids - almost all disabled and scrapped. What happened to Pong Krell? 1) He is the commander of the sith group (has the highest rank 0), the third most important dark forceuser after Sidious and Vader; 2) He is happy to do almost all the work for Vader related to catching or killing fugitive forceusers of any worldview; 3) He allows himself a luxurious life and comfortable workouts; 4) He is loyal to Vader and Sidious; 5) He is extremely satisfied with his position. And now imagine that information reaches Pong that both lords died, therefore, now he is the supreme sith. Besalisk can kill all sith subordinates or leave only 1-2 of the most loyal ones alive to avoid competition. He can give himself the title "Darth" and change his name, rewrite old rules for himself and his followers, over the years form a separate clan opposing the followers of Luke Skywalker and Red Guard (for the latter are loyal only to Sidious, and Krell took the place of their imaginary demigod).

[@christopherbravo1813]

@@Suhoputnaya_Akula honestly I think Skyquake was wasted. also this idea does sound interesting overall, but keep in mind that the Rule of Two states that there can only be two True Sith at any given time-one to hold the power, one to crave it. the only reason Dooku was allowed to train Ventress was due to her *technically* not being a Sith, and in the 2008 cartoon Sidious ordered Dooku to axe her out of worry that her presence was a sign that Dooku intended to overthrow him.

[@RIPchen54321]

Well in Tales of the Empire he finally was who he was supposed to be

[@0predaking0]

I recall the other thing about Grievous is he is like Vader but different, then Vader is a Black humanoid, slow and to rigid. Then Grievous should be a whiteish droid, a more animalistic a Raptor type of posture, agile, and a Ninja, phantomish, in short a Kratos from GoW

[@hyperion3145]

I think at one point one of the writers calls him "that era's Darth Vader"

[@Deivid-bn6yw]

The way he’s portrayed in Clone wars reminds me of Tom from Tom and Jerry. Every episode he forges some devious plot only to get outsmarted almost every single time. Like Tom he always gets so close to winning but somehow Jerry (the Jedi) manage to break from his trap and humiliate him only for him to always come back

[@mrcolz9373]

"Doesn't want to kill children in a children's show" (Cough cough trandosian arc)

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

Very true.

[@The_Watchful_Scribe]

So I actually really just disregard most of CCW grievous except for “massacre” and imagine him as his 2003 incarnation just because I can

[@TheGeneralGrievous19]

I actually started to really like Grievous because of the 2008 TCW as a kid, starting with the Malevolance Arc & the Lair of Grievous episode in S1. I liked his overall design, him being a commander and Jedi killer & the mystery of who he is. I did watch RotS, the 2003 CW series & read his EU backstory and other stories later - because of which he became my favourite Star Wars character. I love all of Grievous. Of course objectively he is a better character in "Legends" but I still love the TCW & the meme Grievous as well. 💙 💚

[@theshadhtaxes]

2003 General Grievous is what we should had have always

[@ClassyDestroyerTM]

Whats even scarier about 2003 grievous, Count Dooku held his own, if not outright BEAT 2003 Grevious, thats whats scary.

[@crownprincesebastianjohano7069]

Dooku was clearly in control of that whole exercise while not really trying. Dooku is often underrated but he is actually a peer of Yoda and Sidious. With all his feats in Clone Wars it should be noted that Dooku hardly ever used the full measure of his power and was often toying with Anakin. Moreover, he left a good deal of power on the table by not becoming an avatar of the Dark Side. But even then, he was immensely powerful. On his best day he could beat either and in Legends he stalemates Yoda on Vjun to the point Yoda was wounded, and with only moderate effort stalemated Windu on Ridley in a 2020 comic. In canon, it is said Dooku was the only person to ever stalemate Yoda in sparring. It goes further, Dooku actually disarmed and knocked down Yoda in a duel on Tatooine, who was only saved by the timely appearance of a friendly battalion of Jawas. Both Plagueis and Sidious feared him and in Dark Disciple, Yoda and Mace on reflecting on their failures to defeat him, admit Dooku was so powerful that no single Jedi could hope to defeat him. When Anakin leveled up in ROTS his victory of Dooku, despite Dooku's order to not go all out, is meant to be a very tangible demonstration that the Chosen One had arrived at the start of his prime.

[@gwaredric2502]

The thing is that 2003 Grievous relied on fear and Dooku clearly wasn't scared of him.

[@blockbuilder4762]

I’m not sure about the time line here, but I think that they could excuse his suckiness by saying, “Mace Windu crushed his lungs, so he suck now”. Not saying that I personally excuse the portrayal of him in TCW, but needless to say, I love the 2003 interpretation WAY more.

[@joshuaslawson9125]

TCW is way before 2003, because 2003 ties directly into the very first scene of Revenge of the Sith, showing how the Chancellor was "captured." TCW starts in 22BBY near the very start of the War, almost immediately after Attack of the Clones.

[@laisphinto6372]

honestly the best version is in the Clone wars Multimedia project in comics and books. with Labyrinth of evil , Operation durges lance that show what people actually feared way more than his lightsaber skills ,his command. he punched deep into the core and does it again at coruscant,he masterminds several devasting campaigns and organized the CIS military. TCW took just took a massive dump on that aspect for that they have no excuse since their show has so much time to focus on the actual fuking clone wars and not several filler episodes that dont show you actually how the war progresses . entire Campaigns are missing ,the goddamn outer rim sieges are only mentioned as Background noise. thats like making a ww2 show and only mention in the Background Operation Barbarossa

[@jailcatjones3250]

Mace windu really did a number on his respitory system with that force crush. But i still love General Grievous

[@Kaidofan-n4r]

Dude I don't think so that is a part of the show

[@whateverwhatever4476]

Sadly, TCW Grevious is more accurate of a portrayel to what George think he's like

[@YSL8704]

And then... Tales of the Empire happened, and finalky, we got an intimidating Grievous once again... Nowhere near as shit your pants impending doom that fills you with dread, but a lot more intimidating, with how maniacally he laughs while slaughtering the sisters of Dathomir, showing no mercy, and killing everyone, it's a lot more intimidating than "I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME, OBI WAN!!!!!"

[@rhysnichols8608]

If George Lucas didn’t want Grevious to be too OP then they should’ve highlighted his strategic genius as his main weapon. Lucas said he didn’t want Grevious to be too powerful as it took away from the badassness of other characters and his story mimicked Vader’s…..but they didn’t need to make him a cartoon villain. They could have toned down his combat skills against Jedi but made his genius more apparent in TCW

[@kingorange7739]

Exactly, that would have been perfect for him and when he does fight Jedi, have him win through outsmarting the Jedi and goading them into making obvious mistakes, not through overwhelming them. This would also set up very well why the Jedi Council said in ROTS that a Jedi master with more experience was needed to properly take Grievous down, since a master would be the only ones with wisdom not to fall for Grievous' tricks and would not allow him to control the engagement. Essentially make Grievous a dark Batman of the Star Wars universe, someone who has much better odds within 1v1s against the Jedi when he is given prep time.

[@rhysnichols8608]

@@kingorange7739 Fully agree, he could’ve still been quite powerful capable of holding his own against jedi, but his true power should’ve been strategy.

[@kingorange7739]

@@rhysnichols8608 Exactly

[@grimreaper_cz]

I love that! That version of Grievous would make so much sense while not undermining him as a threat. Hope we see that in an animated series some day ...

[@some_battle_droid5695]

The real reason he didn’t fight as well as he usually does against the padawns is because he was running out of storage so he let them win as to not overflow his lightsaber collection 😂

[@grayfox6518]

There's an interview of George Lucas post '03 Clone Wars that actually has some things you'll find interesting if you haven't already watched it. George comments something along the lines of "When we did that cartoon short in 2003, they made Grievous really powerful. And that's not how I envisioned General Grievous. He's supposed to be a mustache-twirling bad guy who runs away." So even though he's meant to look scary and powerful, George's version of Grievous is more played up for a threat, more akin to his Episode 3 appearance. And George actually changed some of Grievous's character to be more of the cowardly character he envisioned in TCW. So, much of the fan's contention comes from this discrepancy with his character. I prefer the '03 version myself, however, I think they could played around with the cowardice idea. As more and more Jedi face Grievous they become accustomed to his tactics and the fear begins to fade away as Dooku said it would in the first part of the '03 Clone Wars. Like you said though, he should not lose to standard infantry or standard aliens, that is taking it too far, and ruins his character.

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

Thanks for the detailed comment I agree and some interesting information. 👍

[@ShoXwavee]

Windu crushed Grievous chest at the end of the 2003 series, this is the best explenation of why he stopped being such a threat, he was basically already dying and it's impressive that he managed to keep up with obi Wan till he died. Although Clone Wars doesn't portray that accuratly at all

[@Westerland5304]

I love how ruthless and brutal he is in the novels. He targeted civilians on purpose to divert attention away from his forces and even threatened to execute Palpatine live on the holonet if his demands weren’t met. There’s an excerpt from Labyrinth of Evil that mentions some Jedi found clone troopers and Jedi that had been slaughtered by Grievous on Geonosis in the catacombs. Their wounds were so grotesque that the Jedi weren’t able to determine a probable cause of death, assuming it was caused by a beast or a fully charged geonosian sonic blaster. This was before Grievous got his lightsabers. He literally tore them limb from limb with his hands. Even after his cybernetic transformation he’s retained some of his honour from his tribal life as he grants Jedi an honourable death through combat. Combined with his sympathetic backstory, parallels to Vader, tactical and strategic genius and fighting prowess, he’s a fantastic villain. Legends Grievous (2003, LoE, ROTS Novel, Eyes of Revolution, Unknown Soldier) is the best incarnation of the character. Utterly wasted.

[@panzernerd8486]

I like him in the last arc he appeared in. Like, he defeated Obi Wan and defeated Ahsoka. Ahsoka didn't even hesitate to instantly tell the younglings to run. I really don't know why but I really enjoyed Grievous in that arc But yeah, he adressed the good things too so yeah

[@RIPchen54321]

One other thing that I also hate about the Clone Wars is how Dooku is portrayed. In the films he is a charismatic, Tragic charakter. He's a real gentlemen... In the Clone Wars he just has no charakter. He's just poor Evil. And thats it

[@octaviandoroteja8512]

I hate TCW!Grievous everytime he's onscreen I feel like I'm watching Republic/Jedi propaganda. Which, considering his backstory, makes me hate this version of him even more.

[@Elijahlikechicken]

Ngl I really like the mustache twirling grievous, he has a charm to him

[@adorkofthesky]

Clone Wars: I’ll take care of the jedi myself [*gets owned*] Micro series: I’ll take care of the 6 jedi myself [*kills a padawan and 2 knights, heavily injures 1 knight and a master, and traumatizes one master*]

[@whatisreddin7367]

and we still have people who call filoni "the saviour of star wars" and say "Disney should let him do everything!" smh they did grievous dirty...

[@CrazyCanadian]

4:49 "Now you might say you the show didn't want to kill children in a children show" *cuts to Anakin and the younglings* *ads play* Perfect cutoff XD

[@corruptangel6793]

I'm pretty sure even Dave Filoni said at some point that they went too far with TCW's Grievous and didn't handle him properly. I think the books and comics in the original multi-media project are his best showings. Not as over the top as in the 2003 series, but nowhere near as incompetent as in TCW. It was a nice middle ground that fit quite well with the movie's limited depiction.

[@kaiseropium]

everytime im reminded of 2003 grievous, i remember him decimating jedi everytime im reminded of cw grievous, all i remember is him getting beat up by gunguns and that 1 episode where he screams "YOU WILL NEVA DEFEAT ME!"...before getting blasted by slave 1

[@wolfzend5964]

I feel like Greivous suffers from TCW being Ore light hearted and less serious overall. The Droids are more humorous, the Darkside are depicted much less seriously, and so on. It also didn't help that he was faced with core characters like Obi Wan, Anakin, and so on. Give him scenes outside the main cast, and you could have the general have his wins instead of making him fall to the plot armors. A great example could be a seperate Jedi Knight tasked with facing Grevous and they sorely underestimating him due to what Anakin and Obi Wan reported back, He loses his men, his Padawon, and dies by the general's hand, resulting in Dooku winning a planet that disrupts the entire war.

[@vgyguv]

I mean it makes sense as to why he is weaker in TCW and op 2003. Ever since Mace Windu destroyed his lungs 🫁 Grievous has gone down hill and been weaker which is also why he also always loses.

[@kingorange7739]

That does not make sense since Mace does not crush his chest until right before ROTS.

[@frostedbasil74]

Absolutely agree. TCW Grievous single handedly ruined TCW from the beginning for me. This because he was my favorite character at the time, Boba Fett being a close second (rip green boi). I've got many other issues with the series now that it's over, but Grievous is still one of my major gripes. Also, I'm gonna say it. The clones were totally nerfed in both presentation and capabilities in TCW. We went from clones of the ruthless and anti-social Jango Fett, relatively apathetic and cold, to bros working a 9-5 job with insecurities of a standard millennial wagey that get man-handled by a slim 5'2 Mandalorian girl. CW 2003 >>>>> TCW 2008 all day every day fam, now let me write my will

[@manudiferro5284]

I don't understand the criticism that the clones remain excellent soldiers on the battlefield, the series simply made them more human

[@251spartan]

@@manudiferro5284 not trying to be an asshole, but..... lets remember the times clones throw away their weapons and go for melee against full metal enemies, and get killed because of it, and the times they get into melee range just to get in position to shoot the target, and get killed while preparing to fire...... 2008 Troopers are more Human yes, but they sacrificed their Professional side for a more Humane take, that while i love the Clones Characterization in 2008, showing on the screen their human side, they butchered their Soldier side, comparing standar Trooper from 2003 to standar Trooper 2008, 2003 Trooper is superior on the battlefield, i mean, lets just look at peak standar Trooper moment from 2003, the Elevator scene. That scene, that little action, showed how much of a badass a Standar Trooper was, showing the 10+ years of training agains a superior enemy. We dont get much of those moments on 2008 without them being Main cast Troopers, Officers, or Named Troopers.

[@251spartan]

Indeed, while i loved the showing on the screen of the more Human side of the Troopers, that until that moment was only glimpsed on the Novels and comics, their Professional side suffered greatly because of it.... i mean, for Force Sake on the battle of chrystopsis one trooper literally ran from cover, dropped his weapon and punched a droid, just to hurt his hand and get killed by the same droid..... WTF?!. lets not forget Commander Trauma also, the guy who literally dropped to a knee in front and in melee range of a Berserker Zabrak..... again, while i love and appreciate the showing of the more human side of the Troopers, i wish they would had made them like their 2003 versions in battlefield attitude.

[@manudiferro5284]

@@251spartan thethe 2003 clones are certainly superior, but the 2008 clones are still very skilled soldiers

[@manudiferro5284]

@@251spartan furthermore, the times when the clones go hand-to-hand, apart from moments like the clone who breaks his arm in the 2008 film, they do it with rifles and in sensible moments, and the B1s are not very resistant, they are also weak, furthermore they do not I really understand the criticism for the times they get into shooting positions, but get hit before shooting, what should they have done? Stay dazed or at least try to hit the enemies

[@imperialistgondola3488]

TCW suffers from the issue of using characters that have to live, so there is alot of plot armor needing to be chewed through before we get any true or real risks involved with major characters. That being said Grievous' failures are mainly because of the fact that Obi-Wan, Ahsoka, Mace, etc cannot die or suffer disfigurement/serious injury or game changing Ls. That narratively leaves only background goons and newly made characters being the only prey for GG. I like TCW no matter what but just saying GG was both in-universe and out-of-universe set up for failure and was really just meant to be the bad guy of the week between Dooku, Asajj, and Droids. Overall I think both portrayals did a wonderful job of having a multi armed cyborg swing laser swords, which is all I really expect from GG since most characters we see him square up against have a predefined destinies already. Could TCW have him gut more nameless jedi? Yes. Would that make him a better character? No. personalization is more important to me than feats, and TCW did that way better than 2003 CW.

[@beywheelzhater8930]

Doesn’t mean he couldn’t have been portrayed more as a threat. There are ways to add menace without killing. There are ways to make someone terrifying without being dismembered by them. The problem is not only did they use grevious wayyy too much in the story that his vast number of Ls would never make him be taken serious but there was never a point in which he as taken seriously. He was basically a Saturday morning cartoon villain, a way to have someone sit down and yell “Ill get you next time” without making some random separatist captain show up. Now, imagine how much could be change if they DID use him more sparringly and treat him like a threat. This giant, mechanical beast stalking around who instantly lets you know this episode is going to be close. Have it so where the protagonists actually struggle when he shows up, make them have to take the defensive until they can either find a way to turn the tides of battle or find a way to ESCAPE this force like how the first encounter with 2003 Grevious ended with a retreat. Sure, eventually this menace will fade, the series is long and eventually the aura of fear will falter, but having it exist in the first place is more than enough to make sure Grevious never truly hits the low he did hit Besides, the series made a lot of characters who DID die. Having one or two people exist and become Grevious fodder later on is definitely something that can be done, as 2003 shown the jedi don’t even have to be that developed for it to set the tone that Grevious is terrifying. Add in one episode from perhaps the clones perspective where Grevious is just literally treating it like he is a horror movie villain and the clones are desperately trying to keep him at bay until Anakin can show up and you got yourself a winner

[@christopherbravo1813]

if you legitimately think that 2003 did "personalization" WORSE than 2008, then there's really nothing I can say to you. me, I'll take a silent badass over a loudmouthed buffoon any day of the week.

[@imperialistgondola3488]

@@christopherbravo1813 Tis my opinion that someone that actually interacts with the universe around them outside of violence is a more fleshed out character than a murderous mute who's only screen time is battle scenes.

[@christopherbravo1813]

@@imperialistgondola3488 the thing is, Grievous *isn't* fleshed out and he rarely does any interaction with the universe around him "outside of violence" and running away.

[@thegraceparade9709]

I get your point, but I take issue with the fact that they took characters that where killed by grievous in other media and make another character kill them

[@cv03luka53]

From what I heard George wanted Grievous to be a moustache twirling villain and a coward

[@251spartan]

yeah, one of the few times, i am gonna say, The Creator of Star Wars, didnt have good ideas.

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

Oh fair enough I have not heard that before I would be interested in the source.

[@5o1stFilms]

5:07 Still funny that a random 212th trooper punched Grievous directly in the face. what is it with the 212th and punching things made of metal

[@PizzaMineKing]

Grievous was heavily nerfed for the revenge of the sith - from a writers perspective to not make him overshadow vader in the movies, in universe because he just survived being crushed like a tin can with the force in 2003 clone wars. Unfortunately, later variations used his nerfed version as a baseline instead of as the nerf it was.

[@LegitimateComenter4Yesme-hg4dg]

I loved his design since the beginning but only recently watched the 2003 version its everything he should be.

[@gmoney9469]

He got the Yamcha treatment.

[@Wheeler07]

Another thing which might just be my own personal preference. I think the whiter color of 2003's Grievous is a LOT more intimidating than the tanish color of RotS and TCW

[@dannyc4550]

During the Clone Wars Multi-media prodject which the 2003 Clone Wars was a part of we get to see more of that Grevious in action with him being capable of fighting both Ventress and Durge at the same time to see who gets leadership over the CIS military. Him dominating most Jedi Knights and Masters in a combat, so much so that Jedi high council makes a note of him killing hundreds of Jedi during the war, and him being the main reason why the CIS didn't immediately lose the war during the later half. In TCW 2008 comics we also see Grevious be more competent and dangerous, but you don't get to see it to much do to the lack of content TCW 08 gets in general unlike the 03 stuff which gave grevious spotlights not only in comics, but also in books and novels.

[@Captain_Rex14]

To be honest, who actually likes a villain who gets foiled every time? Obviously you can’t have then win all the time, but a villain who always loses starts losing credibility as a villain all together and just becomes an annoyance.

[@Halv_Turken]

grievous in the movies was a sad joke, a stillborn failure of biblical proportions

[@JakeTheJay]

About your point on not seeing Grievous's tactical mind. Sure we do not see him plan fights, but he makes many quick decisions in his fights. His tactics are calculated and every single lightsaber swing is not wasted by 03 Grievous. Meanwhile, TCWs Grievous always defaults to the lightsaber spin trick that never works. Not to mention how 03 Grievous uses divide and conquer tactics to slaughter half the Jedi in the first fight we see him in. He also tactically uses fear to cause the Jedi to make mistakes, which gives him more openings to strike. Meanwhile, TCW's Grievous just runs headfirst into pretty much everything. TL DR; Sure we don't see 03 Grievous plan fights, be we do see a lot of his mid-fight tactical genius when he defeats 6 Jedi at once and when he kidnaps Palpatine

[@seannapier2298]

I think the biggest problem with GG in TCW is that they took away his cloak; I feel like it really added to his intimidation along with his eyes being more rounder instead of edgy like in CW.

[@MxIxTxC]

This is still apart of the story in my mind

[@lastknightofhonor8998]

It shows how much his wife contributed to the original trilogy....G Lucas had some good ideas, but ultimately sub par execution

[@juiceduck9411]

Tcw grievous lost to a couple of gungans T-T

[@romkom8832]

Just came from Tales of the Empire! They did him soooooo right. Downright evil!

[@Biopax1]

after 2003 grievous is a boss when you unlock him as a playable character

[@yoloactual6975]

I personally believe that 2003 grievous is entirely accurate for exactly what daddy George wanted him to portray. Namely DEATH. His introduction is like a horror sequence. It is genuinely intimidating. Coupled with his overwhelming force, it all really makes sense. Especially considering his lore. He SHOULD be able to kill multiple Jedi Knights on a whim. It's literally what he does as a freaking hobby!

[@starkiller1440]

George Lucas made no plans. One moment he wants a dangerous Jedi hunter Grievous in 2003, then in ROTS, he wants him be a moustache twirling villain.

[@BulgarianWario]

TCW Grievous really feels like Shredder from og TMNT, a silly cartoon villain who is only there to be a mild threat. (Also similar looks)

[@sillygoober2321]

Basically the 2 summarized 2003 clone wars tones up all the characters TCW tones up good guys and tones bad guys way down

[@matthewvandyk7773]

General Grievous is my favorite Star Wars character. The 2003 cartoon and the rest of the Legends content was the Best part of Star Wars as a kid. Then Clone Wars killed the character; except for those few exceptions mentioned in this video.

[@fetusdeletus9266]

Yea they completely neutered grievous as a character and a threat, he went from a terrifying malevolent presence that could keep up wit entire groups of Jedi masters to a mustache twirling Saturday morning cartoon villain complete with dumb plots and escaping while proclaiming that he’ll get em next time! In the 2003 version the guy was nothing short of a monster but now he’s a fool who gets his shit pushed in constantly

[@PBRatLord]

I don't think he was too strong, as he was quickly power-scaled in the duel against Dooku (and later Windu), who himself was among the top percent of Jedi when he was with the order and has only grown more powerful since becoming a Sith. Plus, during the Battle of Coruscant scenes, the Jedi fair far better with some experience and knowledge, even if they still are always on the retreat/resorting to trickery.

[@alejandrocaudillo2993]

2003 general grievous was the most scariest character ever especially with that suspenseful sound in the back making his kills counts But in the movie and the 3-D version they tone him down for many dumb reasons in my opinion 2-D of general grievous was my canon version of him to be a cold blooded Jedi killer He was the most OP character ever

[@totenkopf8814]

I dont know as much about star wars lore as sure many of you guys do. So tell me, in the lore, is it known which jedi he killed to obtain his lightsabers?

[@ForsakenDreamer7]

Puroth, Nystammal, Jmmaar and K'Kruhk. Altough, unbeknownst to Grievous, K'Kruhk actually survived.

[@icehawk86]

I sat in the theater in 2005 with my high school buddies and we all said: Grevious sucks. He didnt do anything the whole movie. He runs away twice, both times from Obi-wan. And the "big reveal" fight scene with four arms that was suppose to highten the lightsaber battles (we were expecting a fight like the cartoon Grevious) was over in 30 seconds. Too simple slices and he lost two hands and then ran away. He killed no jedi in the movie and he didnt come across as menacing at all. Sorry, but I complely disagree with you stats on the movie character.

[@fatnakedjimmyneutron]

He also ignores a big quote from the revenge of the sith bonus features. He only focuses on the quote that George wanted Grievous to be scary. That was just for his appearance. George literally said right after, describing General Grievous personality as "cowardly mustache twirling villain"

[@Blahajey]

7:42 voice crack

[@spartanwar1185]

God DAMN TCW Grievous hurts so much to see *_so much pain_* Why couldn't we have just gotten 2003 Grievous?

[@tayyc]

One thing to note about the episode where he toys with eeth koth: eeth koth died in episode 2; filoni was told this and just ignored the fact that he died on screen.

[@DoctorMarshall7]

Unpopular Opinion: I like TCW Grievous better. Not every villain has to be mysterious or powerful. To me, Grievous has always been a giant meme since Revenge of the Sith. Almost like an evil comic relief :)

[@onlysems]

In revenge of the sith, anakin and grievous meet for the first time aboard the invisible hand, but in TCW 5:55 at have anakin stand at a holotable looking at him... wtf

[@julius9943]

if they wanted him to be laughably evil why did they give him such a kickass design?

[@Palmtreeartarea]

This is my fisrt video I’ve seen of yours, I’m hooked

[@SWPOTC1298]

This is going to be a VERY hot take, but I actually prefer the more cowardly mustache-twirling version. I think for me, the biggest reason why 2003 Grievous feels a smidge underwhelming for me is that he's a near carbon copy (in theme) of a much more thematically successful character: Darth Vader. The notion of an extremely competent jedi killer cyborg who is feels like death incarnate is already perfectly captured by Vader, and so 2003 Grievous feels like too much of a good thing, it feels like oversaturation, almost like being on a sugar high. TCW and RotS Grievous, however, is a much more unique character. Sure, he's still a cyborg who fights and hunts Jedi, but that's been tempered by a more flamboyant personality and something else that I really enjoy for the character: an emphasis on his strategic/tactical talents and military leadership. Grievous should first and foremost be a GENERAL. 2003 Grievous never felt like a military officer. I couldn't imagine him on the bridge of a flagship, but RotS Grievous is literally introduced to us ON the bridge of a flagship! Basically here is how I'd summarize the two versions of the characters: 2003 2D Grievous: - Stoic evil cyborg (body injured beyond healing) who serves a sith lord, ruthlessly hunts down and murders Jedi, feels like an unstoppable force of nature, and also leads military forces. Canon Grievous: - Military officer who is a tactical/strategic genius, and who has an extreme hatred for Jedi. The supreme military commander of the CIS. of the two, I much prefer the latter, since the former is just a copy-and-paste of Vader with a new skin.

[@kingorange7739]

Ok while I can understand your logic and reasoning for this, I do feel there are gaps within your line of thinking that does the 2D or Legends Grievous as a whole wrong. 1. While I agree Vader was definitely established as an also capable Jedi hunter, the context between both careers couldn't be further apart. Vader was within his prime of hunting Jedi at a time where they already lost their place and power in the galaxy and gave him the fear based on the fact the Jedi felt isolated to him, meanwhile, Grievous was basing his actions as one of the few Separatist commanders that had near perfect counters to the Jedi as enemies during a time where the Jedi are still mostly in mass and prime. Not to mention you can write an effective Jedi hunter without making them the same as a previous one. 2. I don't really see where TCW covered the strategic side of his character at all. Grievous constantly lost battles within that show again and again, and basically Dathomir was the closest he had to an unconditional victory. He even lost to Gungans for crying outloud. Legends Grievous did have his strategic side covered both within the comics and Labyrinth of Evil. And even for the little diologue that 2003 Grievous had, he still had his strategic side covered within both his victory on Hypori and his and Dooku's plan to spread the Jedi out to leave Coruscant vulnerable. I also find the notion of saying you couldn't see 2003 Grievous on a flagship also misleading considering that your main argument is we didn't see him on one. And of course this is calling out a basic fact that he is a general, not an admiral. Grievous was never meant to operate as a naval commander, he was always an army commander first and foremost. To summarize both versions of the character: Legends/ 2D Grievous: A ruthless, intelligent cyborg who stalks his Jedi prey before finishing them, meanwhile operating as the main aggressive general for the Separatists, who won another system for the CIS for every world the Republic liberated or conquered and who proved more than capable to battle and win over some of the finest the Jedi order had to throw. Canon/ TCW Grievous: A sniveling coward who gets prideful over enemies he hadn't even come close to beating, got outsmarted by some of the most basic characters, costed the CIS their biggest warship, failed to kill a simple Padawan and even younglings for that matter, failed to decisively beat a Jedi master, constantly suffered defeats and retreats over and over again, and even got defeated by Gungans.

[@Bumbulers_Bricks]

I haven't actually watched the original clone wars, but I can still say from watching clips of them that I prefer ROTS and TCW General Grievous, since in original clone wars he is overpowered and badly drawn, (though that is just because of the animation style) while in other shows he is a much more believable character with more personality. Also in other canon sources he actually does win many conflicts and is a tactical genius, it's just that TCW follows main characters who already have their stories established, so it's harder to tell how dangerous Grievous really is.

[@kingorange7739]

@@Bumbulers_Bricks You are making a judgement without actually watching the show he appears in. Also explain how he is "more believable" in TCW.

[@Bumbulers_Bricks]

In the original show he defeated six Jedi at once while in TCW he would more likely run away, which would probably be the smartest option when you're any one but Darth Sidious and even he was defeated by Mace Windu. Also which one fits better with RotS, where he fled from Anakin and Obi-wan Kenobi, though that was probably smarter than fighting them when they had just defeated Count Dooku and the ship was falling apart.

[@kingorange7739]

@@Bumbulers_Bricks I was about to say, Grievous being capable doesn't mean he is going to be suicidal, especially given in the micro series it shows that he got injured by Mace during the battle of Coruscant which is why he is weakened in ROTS

[@justasimplemanworkinghiswa1569]

08 grievous has no aura

[@SpaceCinemaYT]

SO UNDERRATED

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

Agreed!

[@hardasphuk7633]

I didnt mind it the assassin jedi killer really goes to asaj as she is suppose to be dookus right hand mand in the tcw, where as greivous is suppose to be the general of cis army, it makes more sense this way

[@starwarsgrandmoff]

I see you point they tried to do both with him.

[@kingorange7739]

Problem is, being a general still demands being very competent which Grievous in TCW isn't. I can agree it would be forgivable to nerf Grievous' combat abilities if they at least made him very effective as a strategist, perhaps showcasing his victory over Jedi by out thinking them rather than overpowering them. But they didn't. You don't have to make Grievous unbeatable, but he should have been extremely competent. After all, there is a reason he is number 2 under Dooku and not Ventress.

[@hardasphuk7633]

@@kingorange7739 because ventress was dooku personal assassin which is why sidious eventually ordered him to kill her off, grievous was directly employed by the cis but i agree with what you are saying

[@captainark3705]

I hope grievous is better portrait in the tales of the empire scene on dathomir, than in tcw