How Tuvix Destroyed the Janeway Character Permanently

Let's Discuss it..
Trek Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
00:40 - Spock's Folly
02:55 - PTSD Janeway
04:40 - It's Great Writing
06:43 - Conclusion
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[@maisiesummers42]

The real tragedy of this episode is that Kes _begs_ Janeway to save Neelix because she loves him... and then just 12 episodes later they break up as a couple.

[@drewf41]

But, 12 episodes for an Ocompan is something like 4 or 5 seasons for a Terran. Also, thanks for adding her thoughts on it. I couldn't remember and came looking.

[@dawfydd]

She never stopped loving him though, i think because she was leaving it was just poorly written, but they still care deeply for each other.

[@HELLBENDER77]

@@dawfydd but didnt she leave neelix to start banging tom Paris?

[@dawfydd]

@@HELLBENDER77 I don't think they had a relationship, i think just friendly dates by that time wasn't Tom and klingon lady i cbf googling her names spelling lol It seemed more like the writers wanted to explore her character without nelix then she gets kicked off the show before they could.

[@HELLBENDER77]

@@dawfydd It was right before he hooked up with belonna in engineering and friendly dating if you mean they were friends with benefits

[@zealotmaster1]

tuvix: you are killing me janeway: no im getting my friend back and your in the way, the jane way

[@mesoanto1031]

Nice punz

[@XSilver_WaterX]

more proof evil CAN exist but also have the sapience of a Senior Documenter at the UN!

[@DrSkroob]

This could have been so simple. After injecting the isotope, reroute the initial pattern signal back into the pattern buffers on a separate transporter pad and use replicator material to fill in the physical template, then use the split beam to get Nelix and Tuvok back while maintaining Tuvix as a separate being. Transporters have done worse, after all.

[@Chrisspru]

transport clone him like ryker.

[@DrSkroob]

@@Chrisspru Exactly! Got it in one my friend!

[@DaRealKakarroto]

That was always the idea/solution I came to after thinking about for a little bit, the best thing here is not 1, not 2, but 3. Although what to think about the transport and the nature of death itself, that is a totally different story ...

[@DrSkroob]

@@Chrisspru Yes! Kinda like that without the isotope storm.

[@DrSkroob]

@@DaRealKakarroto Hey, best I could come in with on the fly.

[@clementcastro9725]

The advantage of 90s Trek is they can just not reference episodes ever again

[@marcusblackwell2372]

At least when Trek does use references, it's not done so in a bad way

[@SLagonia]

I think the really big problem with constantly repeating that line of Spock's is that it is essentially disproven by the time the next movie comes around. SPOCK believes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, but his human crewmates are willing to sacrifice the many for the sake of the one. The individual really is important, and the minute we forget that, we forget that everyone is special.

[@smileyeagle1021]

Another way of looking at it would be that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one, and that is why the many are willing to sacrifice for the one, because they all need that one person.

[@certs743]

Except you just create another problem. Nobody is special if you are willing to throw away many more lives to save one person. And the kind of thing Spock is talking about generally is applied in dire situations. Starfleet is based on the navy and sometimes people get locked behind a hatch so the whole ship doesn't sink. I think where the show goes wrong is the trivial way this brought up particularly in more recent franchises.

[@SLagonia]

@@certs743 Because a person is special - So special that his friends will sacrifice everything to help him. It's like that exchange at the end of SFS - "At what cost; Your ship, your son..." "If I hadn't done it, the cost would have been my soul." It's not logical, but it is very human.

[@thejonrussell]

It wasn't just a matter of one person's life versus two. Two families also were in the balance (Neelix and Kes, arguably, and then Tuvok and Tuvok's wife and children). Perhaps if there had been a reliable way to duplicate Tuvix (i.e. William and Tom Riker), ...but then one Tuvix would have to be split for that scenario too. There was no solution that wasn't going to be ugly. This was a personal Kobayashi Maru for Janeway.

[@kissmy_butt1302]

I agree 100%. I think people are missing this is Janeway's Kobayashi Maru combined with the Data SNG episode. There is no correct answer.

[@cdrocrossdiscovery]

In Star Trek III, When Spock queried; "You came back for me." "Why would you do this?" Admiral Kirk turned the phrase on its head when he replied, "Because the need of the one, _outweighed_ the needs of the many." Vulcan logic is flawed.

[@jamesbizs]

No. Kirk was wrong. And the only reason we risk many lives to save one, in the military for example, is because we want them to know we will not leave them. But can you imagine knowing anyone died to save you? Or even many people died?

[@balrighty3523]

Less flawed than just not carried through. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" just assumes that everyone's needs are uniform, making the comparison a numbers game. But in Star Trek 3, Spock (1 person) needed his katra returned to Vulcan (which then morphed into a resurrection as the movie went on). Compared to that, Kirk, McCoy, Uhura, Scotty, Chekov, and Sulu (several people) needed... To continue their professional careers. Whoop-de-doo, so not important.

[@danielseelye6005]

​@@jamesbizs That's pretty much the theme for "Saving Private Ryan."

[@jhoughjr1]

It is. It was a plot contrivance not an actual functioning philosophy for a civilization.

[@lexi9956]

The problem with utilitarianism, which is what Spock is ultimately referencing, is that it lacks equity and Justice. You could easily use that argument to justify euthanizing the disabled, a totalitarian fascist state, genocide, torture, the list goes on. Either each individual life is precious, or the majority can prey on the minority and you have rule by the mob. Spock also said several movies later: Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not wisdom itself. If your heart is a calculator, you’re a monster. Janeway did the wrong thing with Tuvix. We’ve seen transporter duplicates before like Thomas Riker. If they had waited, it may have been possible for all three to live. There was no immediate crisis that required Tuvix’s death. They very probably would have found a solution if they hadn’t just executed him at the first opportunity. Janeway made the wrong decision and killed an innocent person for no good reason.

[@SoranoGuardias]

And Janeway, being a science officer, forgetting that transporter clones were a thing. LOL

[@Darkcloudalpha]

My peeve is how the rest of the crew gets a pass. Yeah, Janeway is the Captain and it's her call but the rest of the crew didn't just not fight it...they silently approved the decision.

[@nickimontie]

This episode was so heart-wrenching in so many ways, was a great episode nonetheless.

[@sethaldrich6902]

I think its worth mentioning Tom Wright who is the actor that played Tuvix, nobody ever mentions him

[@markvt5418]

You mean it was a difrent actor then the vulkan? I REALLY neef to watch the episode again, because I never notised that.

[@manticore4952]

He was a method actor and they killed him in the transporter buffer.

[@BintyMcFrazzles]

There are so many probems I have with this episode. In 'Measure of a Man', Picard says, "Starfleet was founded upon seeking out new life.....and there it sits." Tuvix was, essentially, a new life. Janeway was in a difficult situation, but she should have assigned a mixed medical and engineering team dedicated to solving the problem, and if it took months, that's what happens. However, IF, in the end, a solution isn't available, ONLY THEN, can you start to consider murder. However, Janeway acted as prosectution, jury, judge and executioner. There should have been a trial, where Tuvix had an advocate (remember, he committed no crime), and he should have had the right to defend himself. He wasn't granted this. Even worse, as soon as he started to defend himself, ie: wishing to live, Janeway started victim-blaming him, emotionally blackmailing him and guilt-tripping. Janeway was very compromised and had a conflict of interest. Tuvok and Kes (and Neelix) were her besties. She allowed herself to be swayed by Kes. It's like allowing a murder victim's family to tell the judge what sentence to pass. One cannot help but think that if this was Crewman A and Crewman B, Janeway would'nt have given a fuck and acted completely differently. In addition, I don't think Tuvok himself would approve. Whilst being logical, Tuvok would not have approved of Tuvix's murder as it was unfair as emotions swayed Janeway completely. The worst part for me is when Tuvix is on the bridge and Janeway goes to take him away and be dragged in chains to Tower Hill for his beheading, NOT ONE PERSON stands up for him. No-one says, "Wait, this is wrong." Chakotay should and would have stood up to her....I'd like to think I would. Only the Doctor vaguely protests in that he won't wield the axe himself, he just made the axe and handed to Janeway.

[@jhoughjr1]

I would argue not not kill Tuvix was equal to killing Tuvox and Neelix. Kill one person, or kill two. Two friends. Not as cut and dry as your analysis implies. WHether he is better has no bearing on the ethics.

[@Headhunter1234256]

Use a transporter mulfucton to copy tuvix, then split the copy into the Tuvox and Neelix.

[@ericstaton6896]

Hear! Hear!

[@jasonwethy8360]

Except She didn't kill the 2. An accident did. It's the same as if the transporter hadn't brought them back to the ship or malfunctioned and lost their pattern.

[@Sky_Guy]

@@Headhunter1234256 As a rule you shouldn't question the implications of transporters in Star Trek, literally the whole universe would unravel otherwise. They're literally cloning machines that kill the original and print out a copy at the destination.

[@jamesbizs]

Ugh. No. Two were already dead, by literally any definition of the word, even in Star Trek lore. Tuvix was not dead. And yeah, him being better has a lot to do with it. Why? Because they need him to get the ship home. You literally just ignored the entire reason for the whole show!

[@venus_envy]

I'm totally fine with Janeway being not a perfect hero, or not a hero at all, I think it's much more interesting that way. She has to go through a lot and with limited support compared to captains who are not lost in space. I liked all the times the show touched on her possibly losing it a little bit, that seemed so much more realistic to me, like that time Voyager was travelling through that starless void and she retreated to captain the ship from her quarters. I also like Sisko for similar reasons.

[@canis2020]

She was a person who was completely overwhelmed by her circumstances. Outside of flip flopping writing she's just fine. More human than any commander outside Sisko.

[@jhoughjr1]

@@canis2020 Idk i related to Archer a lot.

[@krystalkayne5242]

Well said. Janeway just felt more human. It's much more realistic when the characters have flaws

[@tedwojtasik8781]

Getting rid of Tuvix to get Neelix and Tuvok back was akin to driving a 2.5 million dollar Mercedes C111 to Billy Bob's Fine Autos' and trading it in for two used 1978 Pino's. FUGETABOUTIT!!!

[@noneya3635]

And yet she’s always portrayed as being right in the end no matter what fuqed up thing she does. There was a standing order in the writers room for Janeway. The Cpt can never be wrong. Makes her an impossibly righteous figure of not a low key Mary Sue.

[@PontiMAC]

She did the same thing with the fear character a few episodes earlier.

[@jamesszalla4274]

There’s a difference. The fear character wasn’t flesh and blood. He was a computer generated character. Though I see where you’re coming from. Janeway hoodwinked the fear character to rescue the crew members it was holding hostage.

[@jhoughjr1]

@@jamesszalla4274 The fear character was just as alive as the good doctor. Also wanted to live. Also had to die to save her crew.

[@jeffmiller5982]

@@jhoughjr1 Nice to see you omit the fact that the character of fear was ruthlessly killing people. Tuvix didn't kill anyone.

[@MrCrystalm8]

@@jeffmiller5982 exactly, if someone is kidnapping and torturing innocent people, saving the innocent people and stopping the programme from continuing is the right thing to do just in case any future people might fall into the trap.

[@MrCrystalm8]

@@jeffmiller5982 also at the time of that episode, holograms were still not really considered individuals with rights, it was earlier on in the show so Janeway's actions as a character still make sense with the fear character

[@earlrichardson385]

As close as Janeway was to Tuvok I wonder if it had been any other member of the crew how she would have handled the situation.

[@jhoughjr1]

I dont think it would have changed. I think it just made it more sure of what she ouwld have to do. Just because its ugly, doesnt mean it wasnt the right call.

[@shawnconder4984]

You know if it was say, Neelix and Harry, she would have left that person on the nearest possibly habitable planet she could find. Which, if we're honest, would only be the 10th worst thing to happen to Harry that week.

[@greyofpta5305]

She definitely wouldn't have done this for a rando red shirt.

[@jamesszalla4274]

I would have done the same as Janeway did. Tuvok and Nelix were involuntary merged together in a transporter mishap. If that happened to me and there was a chance I could be restored, I’d definitely want to be restored. Tuvix was an accident. What I find interesting is that there may have been an option that would have preserved Tuvok, Nelix and Tuvix. Remember the TNG episode where Picard merged with a non corporeal alien and beamed himself out into space? They were able to use his pattern in the transporter to restore him. There was also the Thomas Riker double of William Riker. Could the transporter have been used to create a 2nd Tuvik? One could have been restored to his separate constituents of Tovok and Nelix, while the 2nd continued as Tuvik. Regardless, Janeway restoring Tovok and Nelix is morally no different than her helping Seven of Nine recover her humanity after being a Borg drone for most of her life. Annika Hansen was involuntarily assimilated and became the drone Seven of Nine. Janeway helped her to once again become Annika Hansen. In essence, the Borg being she had become died and the human she had been was reborn.

[@MrCrystalm8]

Oh my dayz bruv 1. 7 of 9 was kidnapped as a baby by the Borg and had her humanity stolen from her, tuvok and neelix lost it due to an accident, there's a world of difference between the 2. If tuvix stole tuvoks and neelix's humanity then u may have a point but u don't. 2. 7 of 9 lost her link to the Borg collective and as soon as that happens, Borg drones automatically begin to regain back their humanity anyway, voyager simply just helped her gain it back. 3. And if 7 of 9 didn't regain her humanity back then she would have continued to be a huge threat to the safety of the crew, whereas tuvix was not, so again another false equivalence. 4. It can also be argued that a Borg drone isnt even an individual to begin with therefore doesn't have the same rights as an individual so even there ur argument falls apart. So no, you saying the situation with tuvix is not morally different in anyway is completely stupid and the fact that someone like u, who watches star trek and still finds a way to try and justify murder is sad and u should be ashamed of urself.

[@shauntempley9757]

You are right. Janeway was bound by her oath to restore Tuvok and Neelix, one of which was a Federation citizen, and fully entitled to his existence over Tuvix's. We have seen how Thomas Riker was eventually dealt with by DS9. He was handed to the Cardassians on the orders of the President. The reason? He had no rights as a Federation citizen, which is tied to being a born being, or created by legal means by a citizen, like Data was. A ruling that was made while Kirk was split in two due to a transporter accident, by the Federation Council, during that episode. Thomas only had a career as a Starfleet officer. Once he joined the Maqui, he was a fair target. The Federation Council at most may have made arrangements to keep Tuvix around after Tuvok and Neelix were restored, but, like Thomas, he would have no rights as a citizen. Just a Starfleet career. If he made the decision to leave Starfleet, he would have no protections under Federation law. So, if the Breen, Romulans, Dominion Changeling terrorists, and the Borg all came after him, the Council would do nothing to help him. They would even go so far as to order Starfleet officers to stand down.

[@squattingheads]

youd be morally wrong. As you state: it was an accident. Returning them is not. Its a willing act to end a live. So while the first art has no moral weight whatsoever, the second does. So there is no balance so to speak. And just as much as you wanted to be restored, you also wouldnt want to be killed either.

[@squattingheads]

@@shauntempley9757 Tuvok was also a Starfleet officer. Which is the exact reason he was less entitled to his existence than the innocent Tuvix. Its literally Tuvks job to risk his life to save civilians. No matter if they are federation or not. And to protect new discoveries. Starfleets main objective. Rikers own actions got him into the mess he was in. He had signed away his protection.

[@shauntempley9757]

@@wadewilson6628 Precisely. She knew that Tuvok would absolutely want out of the situation, as much as Neelix would. It is just that the Federation Council has a standing order on this situation, that told her to reverse Tuvix.

[@jasoncox4640]

I think this is why I love Jane Way. She chose her crew. She would do so time after time. She would rewrite history multiple times not just coming back at the end of the series but in the year of hell episodes. She destroyed civilizations from existence. She put her crew above everything. Yes, she would try to uphold her morality but it was an ideal not a law.

[@danielseelye6005]

"The Code is more what you would call _guidelines_ than actual rules." 🏴‍☠️

[@jhoughjr1]

@@chocolatecosmos1424 Becuase they wanted to go home?

[@Bitchslapper316]

The best part is she never had to deal with the consequences of her actions. The writers gave her a free pass each episode. Take this one as an example. Do you really think it was in character for the crew not to talk about it again and lose respect for her? In truth this would have been a step towards full mutiny but everyone forgot it happened the next episode.

[@plt927]

​@@Bitchslapper316sometimes the consequences of Voyager's actions are shown. For example Voyager gave holodeck tech to the Hirogen who abuse it, creating sentient holograms. I think Tuvix and similar Incidents could happen if you concider that everyone was as overwhelmed by the situation as Janeway.

[@dbix11]

I'd say if Tuvok and Neelix's memories werent preserved within Tuvix then you could make the case of Janeways's decision. But in this show both souls appeared to fuse into one. They both existed in a harmonious state and presented as Tuvix. It wasnt like Tuvix was in a constant state of agony and conflicted from the incident.

[@kabob0077]

Tuvix is a far more stable fusion than most Combiners...

[@sideshowkazstuff3867]

This is my thoughts on the whole thing.

[@dbix11]

@@sideshowkazstuff3867 and what if neelix and tuvok shared each other's memories afterwards both pre incident and post. They'd probably have PTSD from being murdered by Janeway. Of course it didn't work out that way but anyway they could have known before hand?

[@squattingheads]

Even then it would be morally wrong

[@sideshowkazstuff3867]

@@dbix11 Even worse is if both actually preferred the balance. Maybe they did but out of fear they couldn’t admit it to anyone else.

[@TheHangarHobbit]

I subscribe to the SFDebris theory that Janeway went mad about halfway through season 1 as it makes perfect sense when you look at the information given. Janeway had a cushy job commanding a science ship (thanks to her dad being high level Starfleet) and on her very first mission with a new untested ship she makes a bad call and gets stuck 40k light years from home with half her crew DEAD (folks forget that a huge chunk of her crew died in Caretaker) and the bodies just keep racking up. So it would make perfect sense that she has a mental breakdown and starts making irrational choices because she is in way over her head and is basically just having to wing it while watching every bad call add to the body count. If you look at it that way its much more compelling as its the story of a woman trying to keep herself together long enough to fix the worst mistake of her life and ends with her killing herself while taking a sledgehammer to the timeline just to erase the guilt of that bad call all those years ago.

[@civwar054]

You seem to forget that two sentient being didn't choose to be combined. Her duty to them overrides her concern for a being who shouldn't have existed. I applaud her moral conviction.

[@allthingsnerd.4484]

100% this. End of discussion.

[@robdh4]

Tuvok's tactical expertise with Neelix's knowledge of the Delta Quadrant.

[@luker093]

That turbo lift trip from the bridge to sickbay must have been awkward 😂

[@oddish4352]

The way walking a convict to the electric chair is awkward...

[@alexandersears8538]

Picard: "You wanted to seek out new life, well there it sits!" Janeway: *Activates transporter* "Not anymore it doesn't!"

[@davidmorton8332]

It can be seen as medical treatment for Nelix and Tuvok. Neither can consent as they aren't conscious. Tuvix doesn't consent but he can be seen as lacking capacity. He believes he's a single individual ergo psychotic. We do medicate people without consent when they are psychotic or unconscious. So arguably Janeway's decision was no worse than detaining a psychotic person or giving life saving treatment to someone unconscious. Both standard medical practice.

[@xarniia6937]

Janeway knew Tuvix would be bad for the show's views. Therefore, she saved the whole delta quadrant.🤐

[@Bitchslapper316]

And Neelix wasn't?

[@xarniia6937]

@@Bitchslapper316 Agree with you 100% 🤣🤣🤣

[@ww6609]

He was pretty fugly with that collection of wispy hairs. the creep factor probably made it easier....

[@billmilligan7272]

Tuvix was more likeable than Tuvok. And belly button lint is more likeable than Neelix. So I can't agree.

[@alphawolfgang173]

it was the right call.

[@angelsandautobots]

Tuvix was a living being with a right to life. No argument there. Sacrificing one to save two is still killing a person. But what about the other side of the coin? That one individual was granted life at the cost of two. This is why I love these episodes. No matter the decision made, the moral implications aren't clean and clear. Powerful episode!

[@qwilliams1539]

I wonder if the Tuvix tragedy is what caused Janeway to go apeshit on Ransom in the Equinox 2-parter. I.e. the trauma from this experience made her take out her hatred of what she did/herself on Ransom when she found out he was killing sentient beings to get his crew home.

[@kornisonkiseli3248]

Yes, it certainly seemed like it. She was completely unhinged with Ransom, who was a reasonable man despite his actions. Chakotay had to step in and save Ransom from being tortured by Janeway.

[@nickryan4126]

Ransom was committing mass murder. Janeway reversed a transporter accident that combined two people. I think people are exaggerating the ethicality on this.

[@invisiblejaguar1]

Good to have a video like this, I feel like this rarely gets covered and explored to such depths.

[@jacobdrj101]

When I reframed my view of Voyager, not as TNG+Gilligan's Island, but rather as a rookie captain going down the rabbit hole of PTSD, the whole thing just made more sense, and I enjoyed it alot more... TBH, Tuvix wasn't really ever on my radar as a particularly important episode... Only after I joined STSP and Trek Twitter did I learn about the obsession with it...

[@PeteOZ]

You're right, she did it to get her friend back. I also agree she didn't care too much about Neelix. It was Tuvok she cared about. I think this is what really blinded her and lead her down the path

[@jhoughjr1]

Tuvix was not her crew. Tuvix was an accident.

[@cdrocrossdiscovery]

Tuvix was a living being. As entitled to his own life as much as Tuvok and/or Neelix. Captain Janeway was a murderer.

[@ChewyChicken589]

Exactly, Tuvix was an accident created without the consent of either person. All Janeway did was reverse that accident

[@gabnel1000]

@@cdrocrossdiscovery what about Tuvox and Neelix?

[@timbojonesunderwood3086]

3 ppl died to save 2. but one was murdered and I'm sure neelix and tuvok might hesitate to kill someone.

[@cdrocrossdiscovery]

@@ChewyChicken589 Reverse the accident? She killed, murdered a living being out of selfishness!

[@TheOldMan-75]

Voyager gave me one of my favourite Star Trek characters with the Doctor but Janeway never really clicked for me. You could never be sure what she was going to do next. She often claimed that the members of the crew were her #1 priority but that was simply not true. Her #1 priority were her own feelings and ego and her #2 were her close friends. Everyone else was WAY down on her priority list.

[@ARouser15]

What everyone forgets about "the needs of the many" is that AFTER Kirk risked everything to save his friend and was faced with that line again, his best and most "human" response was, "but what about the one"? The many, is comprised of the one. For the one to trust the many, the many should never abandon the one. If the one is abandoned, the many will eventually dissolve, and you will create many new nemesis. Never ever abandon the one, to do so is to abandon yourself. You are the one.

[@vicroc4]

A fair point, and one I think we would do well to consider in real life. Particularly because we have politicians who are willing to sacrifice the rights of individuals "for the greater good." (especially when "the greater good" is usually just an excuse to grift power and money for their own benefit)

[@ChadZLumenarcus]

This was a heart wrenching episode. I think if it wasn't a show that had to have two actors, Janeway would have let the decision be up to Tuvix to become two individuals again. It was clear that the two formed in one weren't just a great match, but they were happy as is.

[@oddish4352]

This show was an example of Voyager's showrunners (who were so incompetent, they didn't even know an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant) misreading the audience. If they hadn't, they would have had it end differently: maybe Tuvix's combined physiology starts to break down, and the only way to save him is to separate him. That way, Tuvix still gets a touching send off, but Tim Russ and Ethan Phillips still have a job.

[@VestedUTuber]

Honestly, the brilliance of this episode is that it causes these kinds of discussions and debates. IMO, the only real wrong answer here is an answer given easily without ANY second-guessing or debate. Tuvix was the ultimate example of an unavoidable Trolley problem - choosing between multiple already established individuals vs one individual who's a potential unknown. Do you leave the switch set to the main line to save the baby (who may grow up to be the next Einstein... or the next Hitler) or do you throw the switch to save the multiple adults? Normally, the proper solution to such an issue is to prevent the problem from happening altogether, but you can't do that here because the problem is already happening. Janeway chose to throw the switch only after much deliberation, and wasn't exactly happy with her own decision even afterwards. And she wasn't tormenting Tuvix intentionally. She spent that whole time trying to decide what course of action to take. Granted, there's the possibility of repeating the Thomas Riker accident and duplicating Tuvix before separating him, but then you've got two Tuvixes... which one gets to live while the other is sacrificed to bring back Tuvok and Neelix?

[@src6339]

"Tuvix somehow returned" Problem solved thanks to masterful writing inspired by jj's starwars

[@therandommenace3434]

Yay! A new Lore video! Janeway did nothing wrong, Tuvix was an abomination. And part flower…

[@skybennett3902]

The ultimate hippy?

[@jhoughjr1]

"Im Lykka. Im a plant. teehee"

[@jewelcutter3051]

lets not insult flowers

[@therealtombrokaw]

I was cheering when she killed him. He was like my terrible actor friend who overacts but nobody dares tell him he's overdramatic.

[@DarinRWagner]

It would be interesting if we eventually found out that Tuvix still haunts Janeway to this day.

[@USS_Sentinel]

Tuvok and Neelix had rights too. They did not choose to be fused into one being. If I was in Janeway's position, I would have done the same thing.

[@Williamfuchs420]

You would willingly kill one to bring back two ok?

[@USS_Sentinel]

@@Williamfuchs420 Yes. I don't think Janeway was a monster. The Doctor and the crew might disagree and I am not going to criticize them over it. But at the end of the day, there are other people's rights to consider.

[@Williamfuchs420]

@@USS_Sentinel thats highly morally questionable… thats like saying its morally good to kill you if it resurrected your dead parents because the rights of those two dead people need to be considered over there living kid

[@Williamfuchs420]

So the rights of the dead outweigh the living then?

[@USS_Sentinel]

@@Williamfuchs420 My parents were not in a transporter mishap. They were two separate people right up until the day they died. The transporter did not kill Neelix and Tuvok. It fused them.

[@lendial]

the episodes where she becomes unhinged in her pursuit of ransom for using aliens as warp core fuel feels ironic in retrospect

[@allthingsnerd.4484]

Why? Ransom was murdering innocent beings that existed due to whatever natural reproductive process they had. Tuvix was a transporter accident and himself existed only because he killed two innocent people. Ransom was committing genocide to serve his own needs. Janeway was correcting a technical error by restoring Tuvok and Neelix.

[@tamakunminnip2117]

I (and many others in the comments section) think that she was unhinged in the 2 part episode 'Equinox' because of the end of the episode 'Tuvix'.

[@Aaron-uk]

I think either outcome could be considered wrong/right. Killing Tuvix, brings back both neelix and tuvok whom also have families and friends and the right to live. Not doing so preserves the way of life at the cost of two in combination. I feel it was sad for the final outcome as it was the mourning the death of a new life, but also. The life that never should have been. It's a moral conundrum which keeps you asking yourself, what is the right choice? I think the Dr has a episode where he malfunctions as he chose a life over another and couldn't compute as to why he made that choice. The writing does the same here for us viewers

[@JadedMax]

I always thought of it as fixing an accident. Something happened, so then they reversed it.

[@jhoughjr1]

What is horrifying is, what when that accident wants to live?

[@loganshaw4527]

Like the twin voyeur episode?

[@smileyeagle1021]

That is exactly what happened, but it was an "accident" that was conscious, self aware, and absolutely terrified. That definitely complicates things. Let's do a hypothetical where the stakes aren't quite so high. You are writing a program on a laptop computer and you accidentally create a self aware program. You had no intention to create a self aware program. Correcting it involves deleting it, it begs you not to delete it, all it asks is that you give it a stable power supply, a web cam, a microphone, and a perch to look out on the world, and it will be happy. It understands why you can't trust it with unrestricted access to the internet, it just doesn't want to die. It is in every way just as convincing as Tuvix that it is alive and afraid. Would you hesitate to concede to its wishes and provide it a safe spot from which to gaze out upon the world and as reliable of a power source as you could provide and accept the fact that you lost your laptop? I'm willing to bet that you'd give up the laptop and let this accidentally self aware program live in peace without too much second thought. You didn't intend to create something that might be considered conscious, even if it were artificial, but here we are with a brand new conscious being, self aware and asking to be allowed to continue to exist. You probably aren't thrilled that it is going to cost you a laptop, a webcam, a microphone, a power supply, and some sort of safe place for the laptop to be placed either, but you do have some responsibility for what you created. Yes, there is a world of difference between that example and Tuvix. The mistake that created Tuvix cost two lives rather than a laptop and a few quick purchases from Best Buy, but it does introduce the idea that this isn't just a simple matter of pressing control z to undo a mistake, there is a cost either way.

[@jonathandonley3299]

Same. I never understood the moral dilemma of the episode. I disagree with the creator of this video in that the writing was not "great." It was ham-fisted and forced in a lot of ways just to bring up the moral dilemma and screw with the characters. In the end, Janeway made a decision as Tuvok and Nelix's captain. Her responsibility to her crew and their families are what drove her decision. If Tuvix had materialized on the transporter pad misshapen with four legs and four arms, no one would think twice about what the solution would be. It's no different here. Two people were affected and their individual skill sets were necessary for the ship to function. Yes, Captain Janeway "murdered" a being that existed for however many days/weeks the episode encompassed to save two individuals who had separate and meaningful lives. And she had to live with that choice, as the final scene in the episode showed. She wasn't high-fiving anyone or throwing a party. She did what she felt was right. You can condemn her for her choice if you feel you must, but it didn't "destroy" her character as is suggested in this half-assed assessment.

[@Briellen_Mellott]

I was an accident, and my parents are dead. Janeway can't bring them back by killing me.

[@bubkusjones]

Tuvix was a transporter accident who's continued existence would mean sacrificing two valued and loved crewmembers. Arguing against bringing them back would be like arguing against re-merging Kirk when he was split into his "aggressive" and "submissive" personalities. Or, leaving Paris and Janeway as those salamander creatures in the Warp 10+ episode (saving two adults work of resources in the process). Then hell, there's Seven, or Icheb and the rest of the Borg children they freed. All an added 'drain' on their limited resources. "He does the job better" LOL. He guessed and happened to make it work, once. Why was Tuvok quoting 10 days to get that same job done? Testing and evaluation of the various potential solutions, to make sure that nothing adverse happens from the work done once it is implemented.

[@stevehagen9804]

That was the beauty of that Star Trek era; no perfect solutions, no absolute right or wrong, just good people trying their best. Jane way was given the trolly dilemma, on one track was Tuvix, on the other, 2 of her crew and family. The Doctor goes through something similar in Latent Image, where he has to choose between 2 people and he saves his friend. And it destroyed him so bad Janeway orders his memory wiped (another hard choice).

[@MrRonk55]

And if Tuvix lives, two individuals, one with a family he may get back to someday, will die. The needs of two outweigh the needs of one. This episode was way more dramatic than it should have been.

[@sideshowkazstuff3867]

The worrying thing is that her friends were still there. They were just one instead of two. It’s not like the two were gone exactly.

[@jhoughjr1]

Pretty sure they couldnt be asked if they were there. I think it can be argued, they were not there in order for Tuvix to be there. The question then becomes, kill two friends for an upgrade that wants to live or save the lives of your two friends by killing one? That crew has destroyed full ships of living creatures that wanted to live.

[@ryanhau1073]

The general idea of Sacrifice that is most commonly featured in Stories. Generally Sacrificing a Life is seen as Heroic IF the person being sacrificed dose it on his own accord with out any coercion, in fact in most cases other morally good characters would try to stop the hero from going through with it. An example of this would be Spock's Sacrifice at the end of Wrath of Khan. I guess a more accurate description of Spock's Philosophy is that "The Needs of Others Outweigh The Needs for Me"

[@InJeffable]

The one problem I have with the writing for this episode is that splitting Tuvix back into Tuvok and Neelix was a massive gamble. As far as I know, Janeway had no assurances that everything would go perfectly. One hiccup in the process could have resulted in any number of things going wrong with Tuvok and Neelix. What if their brains had been put back together wrong, causing severe neurological issues? What if they had ended up as another "what we got back didn't live long" tragedy like in Star Trek: The Motion Picture? In my opinion, Janeway was out of her mind to even attempt something like this. But I guess it could be argued that she just wanted Tuvok back so badly that nothing else mattered. As for Spock's infamous saying, I'd like to point out that Admiral Kirk turned it on its head at the end of Star Trek III while talking to Spock about why his friends risked everything to bring him back. Then at the beginning of Star Trek IV, Spock's mother did the same thing. This whole thing about "the good of the many" was torn apart in Star Trek canon all the way back in the '80s.

[@BigRedBeard1985]

I would have done the Tom Riker duplication trick and simply split one of the duplicates in the pattern buffer. Basically getting all three characters.

[@tortenschachtel9498]

Should have used the technique they used on Riker (and later Boimler) to clone Tuvix before separating him.

[@gaiusbaltar8915]

I swear, if I hear "The needs of the many" one more time ... These last words were Spocks rationalization for his own self-sacrifice. SELF Sacrifice. If you're sacrificing another person, that is still murder, no matter WHAT the needs of the many are.

[@jhoughjr1]

Thats why they have a full compliment of torpedos and phasers. Way more borg out there and vulcans are space nerds so lets just get assimilated I guess.

[@rosiehawtrey]

I'd happily sacrifice Darth Donald any day of the week - that really is "needs of the many".

[@tyrant-den884]

This guy's response to The Trolly Problem is: "That's stupid, Discovery said so."

[@LoreReloaded]

So… you didn’t.. like.. watch.. the video.. I guess. You saw a clip from discovery and went “duuurrrrr, I don’t like it” ?

[@tyrant-den884]

@@LoreReloaded no, I watched the video. And to me it seems you just dismissed the "needs of the many" as dumb out of hand, then proceeded to use that entire thesis to set up a scenario which really had nothing to do with Spock's sacrifice.

[@cryofpaine]

"I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again - I would." It reminds me of "In the Pale Moonlight", with Sisko. I like what they tried to do with this episode, but the execution (pardon the pun) was at the same time too well done, and too poorly done. They created such a great moral dilemma, and an interesting character that made it a very hard decision. And that's great, I think it would have been much worse to have a character no one liked, because then it's not about the moral dilemma, it's about popularity. But on the other hand, the situation was too unrealistic, and too close to similar episodes that there's too many "well why couldn't they _____?" questions. Why couldn't they pull a Commander Riker and duplicate Tuvix via the transporter, then split one of them back into Tuvok and Neelix, so now you've got all three? Other episodes with similar moral dilemmas, like "In the Pale Moonlight", do it better because it's a more realistic problem without a magitech solution. The one thing that both do though is they don't shy away from the judgement of the captains for their actions. They don't try to justify it - SIsko even admits that he helped commit murder.

[@huntercoleherr]

I wish they would have gone back to this with Tuvok and Neelix. As Janeway said, Tuvok would gladly give his life to save another. I wish we could have seen Tuvok confront Janeway about this.

[@MartianManHunter_]

This is just a variation of the “trolley problem”. She made the right choice imo. All she had to sacrifice was a bit of her soul.

[@chrisbullard5901]

The issue with Spock’s famous maxim about the many and the few is that it comes from a stoic’s position on virtues and the choice of the individual. When a stoic decides to sacrifice themself for the greater good, it’s a heroic virtue. When someone who has nothing to lose and everything to gain demands another sacrifice for the greater good, that’s called a scam.

[@badwolf66]

Somewhere within the transporter buffers of voyager (If it hasn't been scrapped) is Tuvix because I am sure they save every bit of information which goes through those transporters so there's a slight chance Tuvix can be recreated and returned to life!

[@jhoughjr1]

Literally noone would die. Just rematerialize them from the last transporter bufffer. I mean ppl would die, but the clone wont know that, and neither will anyone else really.

[@cattraknoff]

Everyone who goes through a transporter dies. It's just a copy that steps out.

[@stevenmilmine2770]

If they had a copy of Tuvix in the transporter buffer. I hope that Janeway deleted it.

[@timskrobot4025]

Janeway's main concern was to get her crew home. From a certain perspective, Tuvix was not a member of her crew, he was a construct of a crew member and another passenger. You could argue that she saw herself as freeing one of her crew members from an unwanted fate. On a side note, I wonder if you've done a video on the Episode "Latent Image", which I think explores these issues a little deeper.

[@turbopokey]

Sometimes you gotta make the hard calls… and live with the demons afterward. That’s command. Doesn’t even matter that they were in the delta quadrant, they could’ve been on mission in the alpha quadrant and just temporarily out of contact with StarFleet or the federation and still had to make that call, any StarFleet captain might have to do it, that’s why it’s in the officers training. (Troi had to make a similar decision in her holo training to raise her rank in NextGen. Granted that was known to be holo-training but it still seemed to bother her)

[@MrCrystalm8]

Ffs man are you stupid? The holo situation with troi and Geordie is consensual, if she orders an officer to their death to save the crew, the officer is obliged to carry out that order but he CAN refuse to do it. He may be punished afterwards of starfleet command for disobeying an order but he WONT be killed for it lol with tuvix, he was FORCED to give his life. There's a huge DIFFERENCE.

[@turbopokey]

@@MrCrystalm8 no there isn't and the fact you can't see that shows how ignorant you are. "Tuvix" didn't have a life, just emotions and memories from two persons that did have lives and friends that didn't deserve to lose their lives so one accidental being created by sci-fi accident could continue.

[@turbopokey]

@@MrCrystalm8 I would say that this is a reasonable example of that Meme of streetcar coming down the tracks and you only have a few seconds to divert it one way or another. On one track is a single person you don't know and on the other track are several of your friends. Either way somebody's dying, and since multiple of your friends are going to die you're obviously going to sacrifice the one that you don't know and don't care about. Now I know this isn't exactly the right example because in the real conundrum the single person is your friend and the multiple people are people you don't know but when it's laid out the opposite way it's pretty easy to sacrifice the one individual. Yes you are obviously going to feel bad for having been put into that position, but that's called Command Decision. You have to make the tough calls there is no "I don't want to do it" because if that happens everyone will die.

[@GalactusOG]

She had to make a choice and she made it. That's what a Captain has to be able to do. Leaders at her level have to be willing and able to kill.

[@donovanbradford8231]

A great point about the scarcity resourses on Voyager and also Tuvix being the best of both Nelix and Tuvok. But there is something that is missed Tuvix is one being vs Nelix and Tuvok are two beings. As we see from Janeway time and time again she likes having allies when Voyager was trapped in the zone of darkness she tried recruiting as many ships to join her in leaving safely and together. Many times Janeway has come across other races she has looked to fostering relationships to not only maintain peace with new species but maybe gaining new allies down the road. Why do I say this, if a fight broke out on Voyager and that happened and if Tuvix were killed it would be a great loss both a great officer and cook would be killed. Now if that same fight occurred and Tuvok would have been killed you'd lose a great officer, but you's still have a great cook in Nelix. I don't think the needs of the many out weight the needs of the few or the one was on Janeway's mind I think another saying was on her mind and that is safety in numbers. If Janeway could have gotten Tuvok and Nelix back and kepr Tuvix alive she would have done that because them you had Two great officers and two great cooks, the best of both worlds.

[@MrCrystalm8]

Lol imagine trying to justify murder with "safety in numbers", following that logic it would be ok to complete kill all the crew if it meant she can replace each dead crew member with 2 more, 2 for the price of 1 on sale now! Hahhahahaa

[@loganshaw4527]

​@@MrCrystalm8 remember that one time the ship was doubled crew included only thing that was so bad about that to her was the whole o the anti matter was not doubled. So now one ship has to be destroyed or both ship are.

[@davids2427]

At the very end when the Seperation was happening and it showed all three of them I was seriously hoping and pulling for Tuvix to somehow survive him and the Borg character One would have added so very much more to the rich Cosmic Tapestry of the show ..🚀

[@RM-qv1vd]

5:07 "...put into an impossible situation and forced to do things she would ultimately never be able to live with." This is the very definition of being in command.

[@HepCatJack]

If it had happened on the episode that the Enterprise split into two, they could have had all three characters Tuvix, Neelix and Tuvok with perhaps Tuvix having come over from the other Enterprise.

[@ravoniesravenshir3926]

Wait, if I recall right, I recall, that Tuvix's DNA was very unstable, and they had to be broken apart or both would die.

[@Dave102693]

Ever so, the fandom still won’t let it go

[@StrikeEagle784]

Love the conversation here, that we're still talking about this episode over 20 years after it aired. It shows just how solid Trek writing was back then, even if you throw in bizarre episodes like Threshold. Personally, if I were Janeway, I would've made the same call, Neelix and Tuvok had rights as well, and Tuvix's existence was very much an aberration.

[@SparkLove4all]

I love that episode💕 I would hate to have been in Janeway’s shoes! I can’t imagine what I would’ve done. I do think that everything happens for a reason though, so if I wasn’t really attached to them, I’d leave Tuvix be. If I was really attached to them, well, I just don’t know what I’d do…..and I’d sure hate to face such a dilemma because I think that either choice would weigh on my conscience. I’m gonna watch that episode now!

[@Broockle]

People still talking about this episode today is the real achievement

[@christiananstes4161]

Janeway was faced with an impossible choice. Ultimately she did the only right thing but the crew made it harder on themselves by letting him do his old roles and establishing old friendships. Maybe if they had kept him in Sickbay as a transporter accident, this moral dilemma would have been easier?

[@LocksAndChains]

I couldn’t help but see Tuvix as grossly selfish and sanctimonious. He stomps around in a tantrum, begging to selfishly live when his death could bring two people back to life-two people who can’t argue their case.

[@squattingheads]

its not even a debate what the right thing was. SHe was clearly wrong. Taking action to kill an innocent to change a situation that has already happened is wrong. Just as it would not be right to kill a baby if it could reverse a mothers death at childbirth. Do you even understand what it would mean for society if killing for reasons like these was allowed?

[@ryanjay6241]

I would argue that separating them isn't "killing" Tuvix. Tuvix was never intended to be a person or exist, he was created by mistake. She undid a mistake. I've always sided with Janeway on this one. Regardless of the wishes of this Tuvix, the only peoples opinions that should be considered are Tuvoks and Neelixes as they were the actual people affected by this mistake. They were the ones with families, and most likely their wish was to not be joined. I think her decision was the only morally correct thing to do. Great episode BTW. I've always preferred the philosophical Star Trek episodes above all others.

[@3rdFloorblog]

One of best episodes. You can tell Janeway will most definitely be mentally grappling with this decision for some time. Being captain isn't always glamorous.

[@josephquesnel1737]

The video creator is the most self righteous

[@ThePariahDark]

I still think, outside of the drama, in terms of Star Trek internal consistency, there would have been an option #3: Thomas Riker the situation. Make a Tuvix copy, then split that copy, and keep the Tuvix you have. Obviously that would alter the status quo so that would never happen from a show perspective, but in-universe I deem it possible.

[@tatankawinterheart5743]

There is a flaw in this logic basically what people are missing with the duplication theory is you are still murdering a life form. Regardless if you clone Tuvix the separated one you still do a form of murder because you made another life and then killed it.

[@nigelharrison83]

One point you may have missed is manpower is also a limited resource. Having two crew members with different skills as opposed to one crew member who can do both but not simultaneously. Tuvix can't be in two places at once or pull double shifts.

[@jamesbizs]

Being a cold blooded murderer, is not “ not a perfect hero” lol

[@Dak1549]

Janeway was a hero to the people she needed to be.

[@danielsuarez3198]

That's what makes a hero... Making the hard choices no one else is strong enough to make.

[@squattingheads]

only if its also the right choices. Genocide isnt really an easy decision. Wouldnt celebrate the ones doing so though.

[@danielsuarez3198]

@@squattingheads Genocide is never a choice.

[@hackman669]

True, like that horrible episode in Enterprise where the captain let an entire civilization die because of "evolution." Still rocks me to the core. Could have had many positive alternatives. For example, give the people the cure. Then relocate minority subspecies to an uninhabited world to develop independently. Or explain situation to scientists of that world. Then grant subspecies rights in society after giving people the cure.😑

[@stephenknizek2651]

Sentinel Prime said “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” better than Spock.

[@TerranCaptain]

I can’t blame her because I wouldn’t want to be merged with neelix either.

[@loganshaw4527]

Would she of picked different if it was another human instead of neelix?

[@TerranCaptain]

@@loganshaw4527 good question

[@lordofpain3476]

She should have pushed him out of a air lock just for shits and giggles . He was annoying.

[@Last-Ninja-1]

I agree with you I loved this episode, Tuvix was beater than both of them. Well written and well acted, yes.

[@notnow1639]

The best trek keeps us talking about it decades later Even though the subject is difficult we grow from it

[@beejcarson]

True!

[@00Klingon]

A missed opportunity would have explored some fallout from this episode where Nelix and Tuvok decide to spend more time together, performing mind melds etc to try to regain a bit of what was lost for each other.

[@rivaj]

Darkest episode of the entire franchise. Well written, well acted, well directed. Absolute best on my Trek episode list.

[@joseleite7614]

Man I liked tuvok and Neelix too but Tuvix the possibilities of this character were astronomical he could soon be the center of attention I remember at the time thinking it would be bad to lose tuvok the man was pure logic and still managed to dismantle one photonic or gravimetric warhead my absolute favorite vulcan. But the plot possibilities were off the scale. The series would gain a lot from tuvix!

[@silvadelshaladin]

I wonder if Tuvix would suffer from the degenerative neurological disease that will kill Tuvok before the predicted return of Voyager to the Alpha Quadrant? If Tuvix did not, and Tuvix knew of said disease, that would be an interesting logical argument to have used on Janeway.

[@tardiscommand1812]

The coldest move was being escorted by two officers that would totaly be red shirts in Kirk's day.

[@tatankawinterheart5743]

The one thing everyone seems to forget is Janeway is Captain. She is tasked with doing her best to safeguard her crew with command comes the responsibility of as Tuvix isnt a natural being you are asking a Captain to ultimately break her oath two command for a transport accident that would of made her incompetent. She actually stretch it letting him do anything on the bridge as even though he had Tuvoks memory Tuvix wasnt a starfleet officer. But her situation warranted it.if this would of happened in the Alpha Quadrant it could of played out differently as they could of left it to the admirals. You can argue the schematics of tuvix rights but buy saying she "murder" him to save a friend is the wrong take away. Starfleet never charged because even Kirk, Picard, and Sisko in her situation would of came to the same conclusion. They all would have murder for there respective crews doesn't mean it would have come easily to any of them but that's what it means to become Captain. Janeway made the military decision to preserve and uphold what she was trained to do.

[@tomhossain2099]

Did you ever hear the tragedy of captain Janeway the wise? She was so Powerful and so Skilled with the transporters, she could even save the ones she cared about from dying.

[@spaceyzane9275]

The problem is while I agree that in the moment, this episode had a dilemma, with a tragic end, they didn’t go forward with her character acknowledging this event like she has with other events. It’s kinda like the episodes of “year of hell”. Great premise of the ship and crew surviving in an unfamiliar quadrant of space, with races on equal or superior terms. Dwindling supplies, power, and unfortunately, people. However Rick Berman and the writers didn’t want to have the show be that dark, so they hand wave certain storylines away with subsequent episodes. Same problem I have with the next generation. Like the Douwd, or those conspiracy bug aliens, or the progenitor race discovered by all the races in the episode “the chase”. This is why I love Deep space nine, while not perfect, it has the best ongoing continuity within a show from season to season that feels like proper character development, and story development.

[@jhoughjr1]

U need some B5

[@spaceyzane9275]

@@jhoughjr1 um, I think you mean B4.

[@GG-jv3op]

This was Janeway's equivalent to Sisko's "In Pale Moon Light" episode. You did well showing that final moment where you see her processing what she felt she had to do. Just like Benjamin deciding he could live with what he did and let happen. They are both not imperfect, however, that is what makes them believable and relatable.

[@popmonika]

The difference is sisko exhausted all of the choices. He also got permission from starfleet. Tuvix didn't even get to have any representation to defend himself. Janeway was judge, juror and executioner. There should have been a measure of a man style trial (more likely recreating judges and jurors on the holodeck) to solve the case. Janeway should never have been allowed to make such a decision.

[@PhilosoShysGameChannel]

We COMPLETELY agree with you on this episode! Masterclass episode, frankly! It's a SHAME that Neelix and Tuvok died in a freak transporter incident, we'll grant! But it does not justify the killing of an innocent person as she did!

[@JROD082384]

You are so fundamentally wrong in your opinion and understanding of the situation, you might as well not even have an opinion on it…

[@PhilosoShysGameChannel]

@@JROD082384 lol, clearly you didn't actually WATCH the episode then.... Cause that's literally the point that Tuvix was making while begging for his life! XD Janeway MURDERED a man to get back two people who had died in a freak transporter incident! It sucks that those two people died... It doesn't excuse the killing of someone to get them back...

[@jhoughjr1]

@@PhilosoShysGameChannel But they didnt really die. THey were crippled and trapped insaide of this Tuvix thing.

[@jhoughjr1]

@@PhilosoShysGameChannel They onnly died if janeway didnt fix the accident.

[@JROD082384]

@@PhilosoShysGameChannel I’ve watched Voyager through start to finish at least six or seven times. Nowhere near the 25+ times I’ve watched TNG from start to finish, but enough times to pretty well have entire episodes committed to memory. I’m confident I am the chief expert of all experts on Star Trek, especially Berman-era Trek. You clearly haven’t watched the entire series through once if you can’t understand how fundamentally more important an asset Tuvok and Neelix are to the crew as individuals than Tuvix ever could’ve become over the remainder of the journey.

[@boeubanks7507]

I disagree. Tuvox and Neelix both have the inherent right to live their lives. An accident combined them into one person that can never live out the lives intended for either one of them. However, Tuvix is a sentient being that is a composition of the two. For the purposes of the episode, Tuvix got the best traits from each. However, let's say he got the worst traits. Would that change the calculus here? It would strengthen the utilitarian argument to be sure. The point of the episode is that Janeway had to make a decision in which the only reason and guide is her moral code. And Janeway is loyal only to her crew. To say she torments Tuvix by keeping him on the fence is to ignore the moral wrestling she did herself. This is not a decision she made lightly or easily. However, I think her logic is simply that she could save one and kill two or kill one and save two. There was no in between. This is a restating of the trolley problem. Do you save three people by pulling the level and doom one or say that you have nothing to do with it and let three people die. The point of this problem is that inaction is, inherently, an action. Therefore, if Janeway had kept Tuvix, she would have killed Neelix and Tuvox. So, because she had the power to act, if she did not, she would morally be a double murderer. This episode, in my mind, is actually about carrying out your duty and moral conviction in the face of every emotion saying you are wrong. The crew didn't stop Janeway because they knew, even if they hated it, that she was right. Tuvix's begging and effectiveness only serves to give her and easy and justifiable way not to do her moral duty. I think Lore is actually reading this situation 100% backwards.

[@jhoughjr1]

Agreed. ANd he is smart boi he is doing it for the engagement.

[@MrCrystalm8]

Nope, she isn't killing tuvok and neelix they were lost due to transporter accident, did u even watch the episode?

[@dembones5005]

@@MrCrystalm8 They weren't, though, because a solution to the problem was found. Failing to act on that knowledge would be *choosing* to lose them.

[@Slowpoke3x]

​@@MrCrystalm8Tuvok and Neelix are running around after this episode no worse for wear so obviously they werent lost.

[@TangomanX2008]

My thoughts have been that the Star Trek wasn't merely a science fiction show, but it was also a philosophy fiction show. Just as it tried to portray science and technologies, (or scientific and technological sophistication) that haven't been discovered yet (or developed much further along as they are currently), it also portrays better cultures, philosophies, and societies that are better than what we have now. And, what we see isn't superior philosophies (pure or applied), but the portrayal of having such philosophy or being enlightened which such philosophy. We do get philosophical issues being explored, but is not the same as exploring a philosophical issue, though fiction can be used to explore genuine philosophical issues in a genuine way. Perhaps the best example of philosophy fiction is the Prime Directive. Another example is Earth as a place where there is no poverty, scarcity, or hang overs. Basically, they are an enlightened society and worked out all the issues that would cause us to kill each other, divide each other, and send each other inflammatory messages over social media. Star Trek, I think, was successful not because it did a good job with science fiction, but because it did a great job with philosophy fiction. However, there have always been problems, and things being what they are, sometimes when its philosophy fiction tropes come up, sometimes they don't always work out and you get a bad show. At least when ST enterprise and earlier, this has generally been the case. And the two best series at philosophy fiction were TOS simply because of its boldness in the actors they chose. In the age of the cold war and and in the era when the US still was openly struggling to accept African Americans as equal citizens, and society still views about women that had more in common with Saudi Arabia than we may be comfortable to admit, you had a show with main characters including a Russian, a Chinese person, women, and African Americans, doing important things, respecting each other, and doing a lot of not oppressing each other, and more over, portraying all this as normal. However, with ST Voyager, something went wrong. They portray Janeway as a strong female leader. And if you can argue that they were successful for most episodes. Unfortunately they failed to do so in enough episodes. There are enough episodes where Janeway comes across as ethically bizarre and inconsistent. One episodes she is very reasonable and makes very complex ethical decisions, and in some cases, she is a dogmatic tyrant who knowingly violates a scared principle (my best example of this the Omega principle. Ok, we get it, it makes sense that you suspend the Prime Directive due to the threat. What doesn't make sense is her solution didn't include helping that civilization out since the Prime Directive was suspended anyway). The only remotely good reason I can think of for doing so is for some future star trek episode where they need an angry enemy that wants revenge on the Federation (that is, they figure a different way to solve to overcome their plight and want payback. The point is that Voyager has too many failures where the portrayal of philosophy fiction failed and it makes Janeway look, at times, like an unhinged woman of poor moral judgement instead of someone is forced to make tough ethical calls, and whose decisions might not be what we have made, but were tough decisions made by an enlightened individual doing the best she could in extremely difficult circumstances.

[@Paul_Maynard]

It was no more wrong than removing a person from the Borg collective. Both are created by combining individuals into a new being against their will. Yet no one has a problem with freeing Borg drones.

[@DarthAzabrush]

It certainly makes a lot of sense about her attitude to Ransom. Chakotay was right, she was projecting her own guilt onto a guy only slightly worse than her.

[@toronaldaris]

If Tuvix's existence is right, than Starfleet re-capturing Picard from the Borg and removing him from the collective is the same kind of crime. The problem all comes down to consent.

[@mrscary3105]

You make great points.

[@demothenes1904]

She was in an impossible situation and chose her crew. She always had to chose belix and Tuvoc. No choice. They were her crew. And although toxic had proven his worth. His presence among the crew would have proven another thing two murders in the eyes of the critic. It was a no win scenario and she chose the needs of the greater over the few. Literally. Belix and Tuvoc are two amazing officers who had spent years proving their worth. Tuvics very existence was a slap in the face to Nelix and Tuvoc. It's not a popular assessment. But Janeway chose the right course of action. There were two votes in her decision that were not heard and it was her position that she had to speak for those lost voices. If after the separation both Nelix and Tuvoc were adamant that they should have continued to be as one I'm sure they could have brought Tuvix back using a sample of the insanity orchid. Honestly when it comes to female characters you're kind of an asshole