How would the SHIELDS of DUNE change combat?

The energy shields from the Dune series would change the way people fight drastically, but in what way?
How would you fight with DUNE SHIELDS
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[@dangroll7766]

I really liked how the Atreides soldiers fought in the film, with a line of spearmen keeping the enemy at bay and those that do get past the spear tips are dealt with by swordsmen. In the film you can see that it’s extremely effective when they drive back the Harkonnen line with no casualties despite being heavily outnumbered, and are only defeated once the Sardaukar attack them from the rear.

[@PeklyCZ]

How Harkonnen said, Atreides had finest legions in Empire.

[@Akaeus]

That to me was a perfect depiction of the loyalty, bravery, discipline and skill that the Atreides soldiers had in the books.

[@CHwisdomfighter]

@@Akaeus The only thing I regret in the film is that they didn't depict the real size of the Atreides army. Sadly Frank Herbert never gave an estimate, but in my headcannon, they should have at least 5-10'000 men.

[@earthknight60]

The strength and training of the Atrides forces were one of the reasons the emperor tried to wipe out the family. In the book there is an excellent gladiatorial scene with a captured Atrides soldier and the Harkonen heir that also highlights the Atrides training.

[@mybawzarerichie]

@@earthknight60 I can’t wait for that in part 2

[@TheDark_Strider]

Important note: The energy shields can defend you from bullets and such; however, if the shield is hit by a lasgun (a laser gun in the Dune universe, the shield will have a chain reaction and explode with a force of a nuclear bomb. That was one of the major reasons many soldiers and assassins started using swords and daggers.

[@t1r1g0n]

What bothers me a bit is (at least in the films) the lack of "modern" kevlar like armor. With the inability to use laser weapons against the shield and the need to strike really slow with a blades weapon, the combination of cevlar (or similar fantasy/sci-fi material) and the shield literally would make it almost impossible to kill somebody. So. why don't use it?

[@scorpixel1866]

That's begging to be dealt with by a single drone with a lasgun strapped on it, that or the losing side threaten to do it at any moment. Editing there because i'm done responding to the same things again and again and again and again. "You can"t do it because it's illegal" is as solid as a newborn with glass bones, we already know conspiracies are feasible, it's the whole point of the books and movies. The only reason it's even known being that otherwise the protagonist would just be dead and there wouldn't be a story. I know people like imagining future administration being full omniscient big-brother, but the truth is that without computers, and a class system making human life incredibly cheap, loss and corruption would be more rampant than the plague in the medieval era. A monopoly doesn't protect from this, you don't even have to be personally involved, interstellar commerce is vast and you can't keep track of everything, and investigations won't interrogate everyone every time such things happen, especially with how damn common they should realistically be. Remember we are talking about a universe where wearing a suicide vest is considered a reasonable mean of protection. Don't even need a machine, a basic mechanism (either remote or impact detonator) or even a fleshy one will do perfectly well with just as little risk with the minimal prep work of "we have your family, do as we say and they'll live lavishly, or don't and hear them beg for death" I swear i've never gotten that much blood pressure from a SF thread since the time SW fanboys swore lasers had 200 gigatons of energy.

[@tejshah6083]

@@scorpixel1866 remember that a) any automated mechanical devices are completely prohibited in universe, and using them would turn literally everyone else against you, b) armies can’t afford to outfit everyone with shields, so that losing side would have to fire a lucky shot to hit an officer, and hope that luck is on their side to get a big explosion.

[@rmsgrey]

Even more important note: not only the shield, but also the laser explodes, so you can't snipe someone from a distant bunker and duck into cover before the blast arrives.

[@toomanyaccounts]

@@t1r1g0n because the shield seems to suffocate those under use. it also takes power to operate. hence unless some building or vehicle a personal shield has limited time it can be turned on. shields are meant as a way to help defeat an assassination attempt on a high ranking person.

[@userSchlonsch]

One of my favorite scenes in the book is the fight between Paul and Jamis, where they are fighting without shields and Paul is struggling to block Jamis‘ differently timed blows and keeps slowing down at the end of his blows because of muscle memory.

[@carsoncasmirri3874]

Explains at least part of how the Fremen made almost laughably quick work of the Sardukar guarding the Harkonen artillery.

[@justanotherimperialfist]

There's a technique I thought about when reading and watching DUNE when it comes to these shields: They're based on the overall momentum of a blow, so wouldn't that mean, theoretically, it could absolutely be possible to deflect an attack by simply increasing your own momentum in turn? By lunging into an attack to block it with your body, for example? Edit: By extension, theoretically this would encourage even more aggressive combat, as pulling away could potentially mean a net decrease in speed of a weapon relative to your own speed. (While a spear is lunging forward, you are pulling back, the difference in speed proving to be enough to be considered a "Slow" shield-breaching movement.)

[@metametodo]

This makes sense with a quote from the book remembered above, "one moves slow on the attack and quick on the defense". You'd probably keep in movement and maintain keen reflexes while defending, in order to make it unviable for them to get close enough to the point that just a small movement is needed to kill you, thus forcing them to keep doing fast strikes in order to reach close distance in the first place. You just gotta be careful not to move towards the blade without being sure the momentum ends up being above 5cm/s. Bodily movements aren't very fast, especially for the trunk and neck.

[@dylanvickers7953]

You are correct and the characters fighting with shields (at least Paul and Duncan) are based on Kali and Escrima which are knife based street fighting system, physicality is part of the technique.

[@zadikariamitchell1930]

If you consider that then you are acknowledging that velocity is relative, so if you are moving too fast, or it is a windy day, would that prevent air from passing through?

[@sudoscientist]

@@zadikariamitchell1930 Presumably it would be like wearing a windbreaker or shielding yourself with an umbrella. It would deflect the wind, but doesn't create a vacuum or anything.

[@whatbreaksthesilence8508]

@@dylanvickers7953 I just watched Dune and I was like is that FMA (which includes Kali and Escrima)? Glad to know that I wasn't the only one that noticed. I didn't read the book. Is their fighting style book accurate?

[@16m49x3]

In the Dune books, the main character is at some point in a fight without his shield, there's made a point of how he has conditioned himself to defensively move as if the enemy has to go through his shield, and also to attack as if he had to delay his strike to go through the shield. This makes it so that the people watching the fight(not used to shields) think he is just playing with his opponent stopping his strike intentionally and letting the enemy come closer than he should, while still being superior.

[@mermetalbard]

Yeah they referenced this in the movie when Jamis invokes the Amtal Rule. You can hear Stilgar in the background go "why is he toying with him?"

[@aresthecrazy9335]

That’s honestly really cool.

[@codrincx]

It's in the movie, though. It's the duel against Jamis.

[@faerie7dragon]

Yeah, this happens in the duel at the end of the movie, though Jessica also brings up Paul has never killed a man, so he hesitated twice as much.

[@redracerb18]

Also the reason why the freemen don't use shields is because it attracts the worms

[@ihavenophoneandimustmeme]

It also explains why they don't use blunt weapons like maces or hammers. Those require more energy to do damage and thus would have to be swung quickly. A sharp object, by contrast, doesn't require much energy to pierce the skin, making it the best option to get past these kinds of shields.

[@AxxLAfriku]

I am being humble when I am telling you that I am the most powerful strongest coolest smartest most famous greatest funniest Y*uTub3r of all time! That's the reason I have multiple girlfriends and I show them off all the time! Bye bye we

[@shlokjagushte1839]

I am genuinely curious. How would the shield react to a chainsaw like weapon. If it is wielded slowly, will it pass through or will it bounce off because teeth are moving quickly?

[@Debilinside]

@@shlokjagushte1839 I would say it will bounce. The teeth are moving too fast therefore a counter-force will be generated.

[@firesidestories5714]

@@Debilinside i think if you get it through the shield first than start the saw like a chain sword, it will work

[@xianartman]

@@firesidestories5714 maybe at first but I think the shield might strip the chain off of the saw after started as the chain would accelerate past the limit quickly. First cut maybe, but it would scuttle the machinery afterwards.

[@afluffywhitekitty8589]

I just love the elegance of the concept. Herbert wanted a more medieval style of war but in a sci fi universe, so... shields! Shields everywhere! It's such a fun concept to think about. I especially love the defence strategies, like if someone has a knife coming in, just wack it away even if you're hitting the sharp side.

[@dylanvickers7953]

How do you change war? You improve Armor. Chain Mail changed war. Plate armor changed war. Castles changed war. Naturally, Herbert explains this through a new “suit of armor” It’s one of the things that’s obviously missing from Star Wars. They try to imply that the Jedi simply prefer lightsabers because of tradition and the force in the original films. They never really explain WHY.

[@afluffywhitekitty8589]

@@dylanvickers7953 Ah yes very true very true.

[@CedricBassman]

@@dylanvickers7953 Well you kinda already explained that yourself: Simply Tradition. Jedi/Sith fought with force imbued swords long before the first lightsaber was build. Technology advanced and so did their style of a sword. They kept to it because it was Tradition and because, through the force, a Jedi can quite literally do more damage if necessary than he could ever achieve with a blaster. So not only Tradition but also practicality. Just like the Samurai, who refused the advancement of Gunpowder weaponry and stuck to their blades. Their tradition eventually died out and their ways with them, sure. But they weren't superpowered Swordfighters.

[@milboxr9772]

@@dylanvickers7953 I mean lightsabers can also deflect their universes blaster shots which is a huge advantage

[@Devastish]

@@CedricBassman I don't know if the lightsabre is that much more effective than a blaster in every situation. I think a combination of the two would be more effective. Just imagine a Jedi with force enhanced accuracy and a long range blaster. Basically a god-tier sniper. Or wielding something rapid fire in a normal infantry engagement would be super deadly, without requiring them to expose themselves to multiple enemies. I'm also thinking specifically of the Clone wars where the Jedi were leading troops in battle. As powerful as they are, a light sabre isn't very useful when battle lines are exchanging fire. Sure, they can deflect shots, but that's a defensive maneuver, and even if they can deflect them straight back someone needs to shoot at them. Now instead have that Jedi with a blaster picking off enemies at extreme range at will. The amount of damage and the psychological effect is significantly greater than blocking a few blaster shots. They can still have the sabres for close combat, but it makes far more sense to use a blaster from cover in the majority of situations.

[@wonderthigh]

strangely enough, the shield mechanics match lady jessica's philosophy of "fear is the mind killer". with the shield, don't be afraid of or intimidated by the opponent's longsword. get in close and take them out with your short swords/daggers

[@SirChris314]

also there's that quote about "slow on offense, quick on defense". If someone's trying to stab you, you could literally throw yourself on the blade to deflect it

[@edward3190]

But the armor seems really dumb, why don't they wear medieval Knight armor underneath the shield. Knight armors are nearly invulnerable against sword. It makes people of Dune universe looks stupid, they can't learn that Knight Armor is good and even better combo with shield.

[@marcusrelicus728]

@@edward3190 They do - we see combat armor in the movie. When the Atreides are marching off the ships everyone is in combat armor. The issue is when you don't have said armor. Like when the Harkonen attacked the Atreides at night when they weren't expecting it. As such most of the Atreides soldiers can't get their armor on in time.

[@giulyanoviniciussanssilva2947]

@@marcusrelicus728 In such a world, not having the shield at your side is very stupid.

[@kokszranajaksmietana]

@@edward3190 Well, it's sf, probably blades are extremely sharp thanks to some kind of mysterious technology making classical armor too weak.

[@ChrisUAnimation]

Thats what i loved about this movie. In an age of advanced interstellar travel, a simple shield forces all combat back to basic swordfighting. That one scene on the stairs, in shield formation, was cool.

[@AverageAlien]

Humans can keep getting better tools but we will always remain the same superstitious and backwards apes we always were. We are the same dumb, squabbling animals, but with better tools essentially. Progress isn't guaranteed.

[@skebaba918]

Only because ppl for some reason don't want to do suicide nuke attacks against the enemy (this is RNG based, since there's at least 4, realistically even more, ways this thing can go, depending on pure luck) by using a lasgun to shoot at a Shield, which would produce an effect similar to a nuke for both the laser AND the shield (so while the shield would become a nuke, the beam from the lasgun would also become a more linear nuke that would also nuke the suicide sniper), even if these don't always happen, because it could simply happen to nuke the assassin, or just nuke the assassins and the dude that got hit, not spreading further than that 1 dude

[@Ben-rz9cf]

Yeah its such an interesting mechanic that such a simple technology if taken to its logical conclusion changes everything. Its so much more interesting than just some bs forcefield because it actually impacts how people fight

[@MrAlepedroza]

@@AverageAlien Slavery is widely illegal, same for gladiatorial/animal fights, same for pedophilia and wars of conquest. We've clearly progressed, justa maybe not at the speed you'd like.

[@AverageAlien]

​@@MrAlepedroza Temporarily illegal*. The society and laws we have today are temporary. The peace we have today is temporary. Extremely temporary. The 1800s was a period of peace in Europe like no other. It seemed like wars were over forever, and anything even slightly violent was catastrophic. And then the 20th century happened. Two of the most brutal, violent, and horrific conflicts in history, ruthless dictators, mass starvation, etc. Gladiatorial fights were nothing more than boxing matches. We have those today. Hardly anyone ever died as a gladiator. Death was incredibly rare and most fights were staged. As for animal fighting...well, who cares. The other stuff was always looked down upon. Actually it's in our nature to look down upon that. Slavery doesn't exist anymore thanks to capitalism. But this isn't a guaranteed permanent feature of society, so if we go back to slave economies and imperialism, well, guess what, it's coming back.

[@erikbjelke4411]

The books make a big deal about shield combat being all about "fast on defense, slow on attack." With a fast defense, even if the opponent's strike would penetrate the shield, you knock it aside with enough relative velocity that it doesn't. Then your slow attack is intended to penetrate their shield, but yes, it's easy to see and dodge or block a slow attack, so duels become a lot about essentially tricking your opponent into not noticing your slow attack that will kill them. One of my favorite bits is later in the book, when Paul is fighting a Fremen (who don't use shields because they drive sandworms into frenzy), and because he's trained all his life to fight with shields, his attacks are too slow and he's not actually landing hits on his opponent. But it quickly becomes clear to the other Fremen that Paul is very very skilled, so they think he's toying with his opponent. It's another nice layer of reality in the universe, that these things would be so prevalent and so fundamentally change how combat works that when they are not present, what works when they are no longer works. Really, it's a blessing for Paul the Fremen use knives. . . if they, not having shields, used arming swords or longswords, he'd be completely out of his element in that kind of fight (though I think the book mentions Paul being taught to fight with longer blades as well, so might be familiar with them, but still probably in the context of shield fighting).

[@torg2126]

Some duels would be shieldless and unarmored, so he might have appropriate training

[@erikbjelke4411]

@@torg2126 Except that contradicts the plot point that his trained reflexes and fighting style serve him poorly in his fight with Jamis. It's been awhile since I read that part of the book (I've taken a few runs at it in the past few years, but haven't gotten that deep before other things caught my attention), so I don't know if he adapted out of sheer necessity or because he had some training in shieldless fighting to fall back on and it just took him some time to bring up those less-drilled fighting reflexes.

[@soulwynd]

@@torg2126 He is a noble. He would never be in a duel without his shield and he would only ever duel other nobles, who would also have shields. In the context of duel training, there is no reason to train differently and mess up your muscle memory.

[@kopicat2429]

In the movie, that is instead said to be because he has never killed before, hence they believe Paul to be playing with his opponent.

[@marcz2903]

He's not hitting Jamis because he's never killed before and doesn't want to kill him, and doesn't realize it's a fight to the death at first. He's fully aware of his shield-trained reflexes and is even worried that it might be a problem. Also, he is trained with longer weapons, such as a rapier, but Duncan Idaho trained him to be particularly deadly with a knife

[@the_armada5579]

The reason I love Dune so much is it takes the future in a totally different direction. The Butlerian Jihad is something very believable, and so no need for computers and thinking machines, which means more focus on humans. No guns and rifles, which again means more focus on intimate combat which just makes everything so much easier and nicer to portray in books and movies

[@franksanchez8111]

The fact that Frank Herbert saw the danger in relay too much on computer in the 60's is amazing

[@giulyanoviniciussanssilva2947]

I like that concept in fantasy with the limited magic giving more room for physical combat.

[@andrewmacdonald5884]

Yep, that’s what’s so cool about Dune. Instead of taking place during an AI revolt like a lot of science fiction, it takes place after that’s already happened. I do think that AI is an inevitable threat in our future, but Dune shows the dangers of taking things too far in the other direction in response to the AI threat.

[@jcs1025]

@@franksanchez8111The practical effect of this is what has made Dune withstand the test of time, without having the update the 1965 story very much. By placing it so far int he future, and removing advanced computers as an inevitability, he basically created a retro-sci-fi universe that has stood up well in the almost 60 years since written. Genius in my opinion.

[@rizkyadiyanto7922]

its just colonialism era but in space instead of continents. the war for "spice" itself is the main premise for both.

[@wackyvorlon]

It’s not entirely to consider it “protecting” with energy weapons. If a lasgun hits a shield it sets up a feedback loop, that results in both the lasgun and the shield detonating with extreme violence. Like several megatons.

[@CedricBassman]

Well in a way it is protecting from Energy weapons. On the account that getting hit by an energy weapon would cause a nuclear explosion. Granted, you and the person firing the Lasgun would die, aswell as everyone around. But you would die with the knowledge that the House the Soldier belonged to would be immidiately wiped out by the others, completly. It's the "try me, bitch." kind of protection.

[@grimnir8872]

@@CedricBassman Dune explains it's not just the Lasgun AND the shield exploding, but every POINT across the firing of the Lasgun too, basically, bringing a Lasgun to a shield fight is retarded.

[@superminer200]

@@grimnir8872 not if the laz gun in remote controlled then you just turn them into a bomb

[@CombineWatermelon]

@@superminer200 nobody trusts robots anymore

[@Yes-ly1nx]

Oh shields from Dune protect you from lasguns.....until you explode

[@user-ii5im7zm2t]

Important thing to know about the personal shields in Dune: fast strikes rebound away with force equal to the strike. You can't hit fast and then slowly press the blade in, because the blade would be repelled violently.

[@dogmaticpyrrhonist543]

Conservation of momentum makes that useful though. Mace to the head. Sure, your mace rebounds violently, but for momentum to be conserved, twice the incoming momentum of the mace is suddenly transferred to your head. Or as has been pointed out, Dune doesn't bear close scientific inspection

[@jjkthebest]

@@dogmaticpyrrhonist543 That can easily be explained away though. The shield can simply redistribute the force as well, making it much less of a problem.

[@erynncollier8672]

So it's a vector reflection effect........ I know how to defeat that without any special technology. Just pull your strike just before contact and it'll accelerate your blow into the target.

[@Alexander_Kale]

@@dogmaticpyrrhonist543 Any shield that allows you to push on it is not worth inventing. If that WAS how the things worked, projectiles would not have been made obsolete, they would have been made bigger.

[@user-te7rf8ik7z]

Then you still can shoot people with .50 cal to just kill them with blunt force

[@JessieShadowhold]

Another important point with shorter swords: we see the dart ranged weapons they have to overcome shields hover at the shield for a moment, and we see Duncan Idaho deflect a dart with his short sword as the dart was trying to work through the shield. It would be MUCH harder to make such a close block with a long sword as opposed to a dagger or short sword. The smaller blade would be a huge advantage to blocking darts.

[@Fabio-hc9bv]

@Miles Doyle can you like... just stop.

[@Damo2690]

@Miles Doyle hail Satan

[@gustavo6649]

@Miles Doyle i am a soldier of the dark lord, i will never accept jesus or god, hail Satan!

[@meat2648]

@Miles Doyle take your medicine grandpa

[@hansmatheson5976]

@Miles Doyle Preach!! Though, I feel I must warn you that even our divine lord and saviour, J.C, has limits to his forgiveness. Praise, that he only ,most graciously, draws the line at the most vile, cruel and repugnant sins that man is capable of committing… Sadly for you, aneurysm-inducing run-on sentences and insane, reckless misuse of commas happens to be among those most cruel and unforgivable of sins. I will pray for you, my brother. May you find the courage to return to the light and reject the temptations of the dark side.

[@riichobamin7612]

I think logically speaking, militaries in Dune universe will combine a mail shirt (made of a light yet strong alloy/metal) with the shield. The mail shirt can defend most parts of a body from a slow moving blade that has gotten past the shield.

[@theiviachine]

Smart

[@riichobamin7612]

@@theiviachine thanks !

[@CdFMasterVideo]

And in fact, you can see that they do have some kind of armors on, so they probably thought the same! (except for the Atreides soldiers who woke up in a hurry to defend the city)

[@riichobamin7612]

@@CdFMasterVideo yeah but atleast in the 2021 movie, I didn't see anything that resembled a mailshirt. Or I may have missed it 😅

[@someday0319]

@@riichobamin7612 I'm pretty sure suits made in a.d 26000 is much more effective then a mail shirt

[@leonardrodriguez1501]

I think they did that in starwars too. The clone wars series. The destroyer droids could be beaten with an emp grenade, but their shield blocks things based on kinetic force. So you actually have to throw out lightly so it gently rolls into the bubble.

[@gabegu5102]

Yea it is a common sci-fi story device. In Stargate the Gouald have personal shields that will block most projectile and energy weapons' but slow moving projectiles can pernitrate them.

[@leonardrodriguez1501]

@@gabegu5102 its kinda fun to see the ways sci-fi comes up with to get out of its own way. It wants to say it has the technology for anything, but that would be boring. So they have to come up with less obvious technology to counter the obvious that technology, and we're right back to where we started.

[@EnigmacTheFirst]

Damn. Just watched this movie last night with a friend and we discussed this exact thing, taking note of how only specialized ranged weapons could get through the shields so infantry combat became all about melee combat. Those bombs that slowly drilled through the shields and destroyed the ships when the invasion started were badass too.

[@Gr3nadgr3gory]

The bombs were nothing special. The shields honestly did nothing but make the explosions look cooler in that scene.

[@als3022]

The heavier shields were turned off by the doctor if I remember right. Only personal building shields were up.

[@hyeqarlz7272]

@@Gr3nadgr3gorydr yuen lower the shield

[@hamanamahamana7124]

THE MAN CATCHER WOULD BE OP

[@Hwelhos]

wouldnt deadly gas be more effective than drills? bc the gas would be carried through the shield bc of the wind and how does the shield work when its windy?

[@simonhibbs887]

You can also use a shield actively. If a blow is coming in slow enough to penetrate, you can slap it aside by striking the weapon, so the relative velocity of weapon and shield is above the deflection threshold. We also see Duncan using his shield as a bludgeon to batter enemies away to create space for attacks. It’s fantastic stuff.

[@gavinclark6891]

SUPER important! This helps with defending against things like spears. Their use of escrima works well with this.

[@Throku]

Thing is that the energy shield makes you able to use anything like this, even your hand.

[@aetherial87]

You could theoretically do it the other way too, using faster strikes against retreating limbs to get a hit in.

[@KurNorock]

In the books i believe they explain that expert combatants use full speed attacks that are slowed at precisely the right moment and for exactly the right amount of time, to penetrate the shield, making the strikes full speed and difficult to dodge and also making it look like the strings aren't slowing down at all.

[@tarinoblake381]

So what you’re saying is the best defence, is a good offence?

[@thomasniemeyer5117]

I see three things that would be real in the Dune fighting style: 1) A stronger trained fighter would almost always win against a weaker and faster trained fighter, thus an emphasis on weight training. Arts that aren't real effective in our systems ( hapkido/aikido/etc) would dominate, along with judo. If you don't fear getting hit on the way in, and can't afford to lose control of your opponents upper body in a fight, striking arts are almost useless and locks and upper body throws become king. 3) Most blades would be single sided. Being able to apply your strength and leverage directly to the back of your blade would be a huge advantage in many circumstances.

[@theDoctor1787]

I would disagree with emphasis on grappling, I think outfighting would be the rule of the day in such a situation. Everyone has daggers and short blades in Dune, and even without a shield grappling with someone who has a dagger and likely more than one concealed (as most probably would in this environment) is incredibly dangerous. Knife dueling in general usually ends with 2 deaths so I think grappling in a duel with these shield would be something like mutually assured destruction.

[@niscent_]

@@theDoctor1787 as someone who trains judo and trained with some knife fighters, you're literally not playing the same game when grappling. as you go in you're covered in cuts, but if we take it that shield makes the rapid cuts ineffective, then i don't care i just place my kumikata and throw, you're playing the knife fighting game and footwork, you're not ready for a throw. even then i can always come knife i hand, and as soon as you start addressing the knife a bit, i grab and throw. the shield will block the impact, but it won't disperse your own momentum. also, from self defense practice, once already hugging each other, you got a better shot wrestling around your opponent's knife than having one extra knife in your hand to worry about. wrestling better than someone is incredibly more reliable than striking or weapon fighting better, not always an option, but when it is you can be sure you're not failing that part.

[@theDoctor1787]

@@niscent_ Not sure if you have experience with people trying to murder one another but living near a major city I have seen what knives do to people. Brushing off even shallow cuts is not easy to do. Judo throws against trained opponents (not martial arts trained, soldier trained) who are trying to murder you with a knife is not going to be clean unless you isolate and disarm them. This makes it a near certainty that someone is getting stabbed, and stab wounds are not something you walk away from without immediate medical attention.

[@niscent_]

@@theDoctor1787 of course, you never pull that off in real life, but here the shield greatly reduce the possible attacks with a knife. getting from knife fighting to grappling becomes is likely easier than in real life. i wouldn't take it as absolute reference since they are fights choregraphies before anything else, but in the movie fights often have multiple good opportunities to just forget your knife and throw. then, i'm a bit biased because i have no training in wielding weapons, only practice in staying safe from them. the one thing i know about fighting is that kali guy i trained with who teased me saying "you, if you got a knife, just throw it, you fight better bare handed."

[@glompert7390]

Theres no 2

[@kindatim]

I'm reading Dune right now and what I'm loving about it is that it's basically future fantasy. It has archaic titles like padishah emperor, baron and duke, it has large fearsome beasts (well, large fearsome... organisms), it has ancient prophecies (well, kinda), it has melee combat with traditional weapons. And yet, it manages to maintain the atmosphere really well. It's a cool book, I would definitely recommend.

[@FrontTowardsAnemone]

There's a very cool section in the book in which paul (who's trained to fight with shields his whole life) squares off against someone who's never used a shield and he's caught off guard by the difference in fighting style. The way Paul (and by extension, most people who use shields in the Dune universe) make strikes is 1) swing fast to close the distance 2) slow down as your weapon comes against the shield to defeat it and then 3) once inside the shield, make a quick cut/stab while you've got the chance

[@aguyfromnothere]

In the movie they show Paul doing that but they say it is because Paul has not killed (also true). They dont emphasize that as highly trained royalty he has not fought without a shield so his timing is all off.

[@innocentbystander3317]

I was a friend of Jamis. He taught me that when you kill, you pay for it.

[@jimihendricks5602]

@@innocentbystander3317 Usal gives moisture to the dead!

[@Agustin_Leal]

@@jimihendricks5602 *Usul

[@TibbyProductions]

Such a great scene in the book

[@alexbennett3228]

Another thing to consider for weapon choice is convenience of carry. A long sword wouldn't allow for easy transport in their air or spacecraft, not to mention the most fighting seems to happen within small narrow-ish spaces. Personally I feel a short sword is the longest you'd want a blade to be when you have to consider piloting an aircraft while wearing it.

[@judahboyd2107]

Pilot self-defense weapons and paratrooper weapons tend to be cut down rifles or pistol carbines for the same reason.

[@wastelesslearning1245]

I mean I think the best weapons would be a bunch of hunter seekers or some bio/mechanical drones with blades or attack animals would be the best weapon in the dune universe. Very small or walk besides you so you can carry a bunch of them. They can form a defensive phalanx by encircling you or they can can encircle you enemy and stab from too many angles to defend from simultaneously.

[@spring5385]

@@wastelesslearning1245 AI of any kind, even pretty basic automation stuff, is incredibly illegal in the Dune universe, cause they already went through a galactic Skynet kinda thing. Trained animals might be feasible, if it weren't for the setting. I doubt any still suits were designed for non humans. I'd also imagine that training an animal to bite or claw slowly would be difficult, but that's not too much of an obstacle for the major players in Dune.

[@alexbennett3228]

@@wastelesslearning1245 A cool idea for sure but I don't think we'll get autonomous drones in a world where motorized doors and AI and calculators are all banned because "a human can do that".

[@wastelesslearning1245]

@@spring5385 fair enough Ai is banned but I do agree genetic modification/bio machines would be sick and not that hard for some of the factions to attain. Once they do swords pretty much obsolete. Also for the still suit problem, one could work around by putting a trained brain in a robot body like a cyborg. Unethical (unless the brains have been grown to lack all but the instincts needed to pilot; ie made The brains not sentient) but this is dune; not the most ethical of universes to begin with. I watched the dune movie last night and those hunter drone things pretty much confirmed my thoughts on it. Like imagine they mass produced those and instead of being Remote control by someone nearby, they GMO insect brains and put those into the hunter drones. Thanks for replying I’m just starting to get into the Dune universe. That ai ban due to humans centralizing power through human laziness was very interesting to me. Very applicable with the information age and companies like Google and Facebook and Amazon and credit banking surveilling stuff.

[@maxpower3990]

The best weapon for overcoming shields would be a flamethrower. The flaming jelly doesn't move very fast but will stick to the target and then sink through the shield. It is great against densely pack enemy formations, doesn't require alot of training like a sword and doesn't break moral or legal codes in the Une Universe.

[@superslash7254]

The flames and smoke would also choke out an area, especially indoors. The issue there is that the Dune universe is one full of religious fanaticism and people with telepathic and clairvoyant powers, so if you do anything that pisses off the established culture too much you're gonna have a REAL bad day.

[@KoishiVibin]

Contact weapons. Oh wait, what if we fired that stuff they use to clean uranium residue off nuclear reactor walls?

[@endless3cho]

The fire would also suck out all the oxygen around you.

[@datboii2877]

Yeah, but idk if they'll use such an inhumane weapon

[@meinnamegehtdichnichtsan3941]

Yes, that is the logical way to fight this shields but swords are just cooler .

[@maximumuncertainty5275]

One aspect I hadn’t considered before seeing the movie is conservation of energy. Although the shield stops the attack, the shield has to absorb the energy, causing recoil. In the movie fighting styles seem to actively use this recoil with quick blows intending to maneuver the opponent into a position for the slower blows. This especially plays out in the Atreidies formation style that uses spears. Rather than a significant threat themselves, the spears would act to funnel enemies and negate number advantages.

[@aceshighdueceslow]

this is also how Duncan Idaho makes most of his kills against shielded opponents, he uses the recoil of his faster blows to manoeuvre and set them off-balance so he can make a lethal strike as they now aren't able to get a guard up. Of course when he commandeers the 'thopter he just goes ham on the Harkonnens because their shields weren't up

[@janpaszka4515]

Yeah, logical conclusion would be to launch car-sized railgun slugs at the enemy. Maybe the bullet wouldn't go through the shield, but experiencing 50G's of acceleration might turn you into fine mist.

[@chrislaws4785]

The thing with the thrusting is why we also see those dart gun things they use as well as the hunter seekers. They fire these at someone, it makes quickly closes the distance to the person making contact with the shield and is stopped but then continues pressing forward and slowly goes through the shield.

[@wastelesslearning1245]

I always thought the best weapons against these shields would be a bunch of hunter seekers or some bio/mechanical drones with blades or attack animals (ideally flying or constricting) would be the best weapon in the dune universe. Very small or walk besides you so you can carry a bunch of them. Like 4 or 5. With those hunter seekers, I think you can easily fit 10 in a back pack at least. Think like yondu arrow from guardians of the galaxy. One is deadly enough but if you have more then one, they can form a defensive phalanx by encircling you or they can can encircle you enemy and stab from too many angles to defend from simultaneously. If they can’t use even pre-programmed reactionary ai, then I’m sure they can put like grow a brain as a circuit instead one user can control more then one or like I said some trained genetically made attack organism. Sword user stands no chance against simultaneous stabs from 180 degrees of possible simultaneous angles of attack. Even if some brings in a shield and sword combo, one drone, left, right, front, and behind or from above: you can’t possibly shield all of them unless you had like a bunch of body blocking shield drones. I don’t know: just my two sense.

[@patrickfrost9405]

Jet-pack with grappling hooks. Nab some guys, fly high and drop them. Their shields will contain the splat until they stop slushing around.

[@Alexander_Kale]

@Miles Doyle Unless of course there is an ancient order of science nuns that manipulated our ancestors to think that so we would welcome their manufactured overlord whenever he is finally ready.

[@afrogunso47]

@@Alexander_Kale perfect response lmao

[@ryanodom6101]

"Slimming, don't you think?" Don't sell yourself short, Shad. You've lost a very noticeable amount of weight. Good on you.

[@DHXRevenge713]

I thought so too!!! Like damn, our man is looking great

[@Sevendusk]

oh so I wasn't going crazy.

[@dabmane]

A heavier arm like a sword also has a lot more inertia, so once you do get the tip pushed in, it will require more force to accelerate it into the opponent. A dagger, once passed through, will more effortlessly stab or slash the enemy due to its lower inertia.

[@fabiank.2604]

My first thought was that, projectile weapons and strikes being extremely ineffective, this would probably give rise to a fighting style very similar to Judo or BJJ. Grapple them, throw them, break their bones or strangle them.

[@viktorberzinsky4781]

With armor I would think something more along the lines of traditional Japanese Jujutsu.

[@emmitstewart1921]

A weapon that might very effective would be a shigawire garrote. Around the neck, you could behead your opponent. Around arm, leg, ankle or wrist you could sever every vein and artery in that limb. (for those who haven't read the books, Shigawire is so thin and strong that it will cut through flesh with the least pressure.)

[@BHuang92]

For those new to Dune, the reason why Dune has people use blades to fight and not shooting at each other is for a couple of reasons. Yes, they have lasers but shooting lasers at shields would *set off a nuclear chain reaction which not ideal for everyone to die.*

[@TheDark_Strider]

Just made a comment about that. Thank you

[@4everscifi]

So, you could send out a suicide attacker to obliterate entire cities or armies? Haven’t read the books. Does anyone employ that? Seems like you could send someone wearing their own to destroy your enemies.

[@Niall487]

@@4everscifi kinda. It happens once I think. But it along with atomic weapons are a big no no. Harkonens only get away with it due to the empire backing them. There would be uproar if all the great families knew

[@tejshah6083]

@@4everscifi you could, and Duncan does it once in the books, but it is one of two actions (along with using computers) that turn literally everyone else against you, very quickly.

[@aimaralonsolavega5645]

@@4everscifi I think it's a small one (depending on the laser and the shield), just you and 20 m around you for a pistol and a personal shield if I remenber correctly. But i will set off in a random point between your target and you

[@FailcopterWes]

One of the most interesting things they did with the shields in Dune was that you could see people deliberately moving an arm into a strike to increase the relative speed and ensure that it will block it. The relative slow speed requirement makes slapping an opponents' sword out of the way and stabbing with the other hand actually kind of practical.

[@thomasswainston2821]

I'd imagine you might want an air tight mode without the vulnerability which you can switch into for short periods at the cost of being unable to breathe.

[@Lilitha11]

@@thomasswainston2821 You would think they would just make a shield you can put on your head that lets air through, while the rest of the body blocks everything.

[@Nuvizzle]

@@Lilitha11 You would think a lot of things tbh, Dune has neat concepts but they're absolutely full of plot holes.

[@Megenos]

@@Lilitha11 Then that would bring in issues. Now everyone knows the head is a weakpoint, which is adding an extra weakpoint.

[@exile_1123]

@@thomasswainston2821 I haven’t read the books. Is there something in them that says this is possible?

[@HamsterInMyHead]

The one thing I kept thinking about when reading the book and watching the movie in regards to combat - shields make combat be melee dominated again, and with swords to boot; but doesn't that mean that chainmail would be king? Or any slice-resistant body armor. Why not double on the defense? Someone in plate with a shield would be so hard to kill!

[@MegaMatt5]

A note on the grappling idea: I believe in the books two Shields will naturally repel one another, Making grappling much more difficult. If I recall correctly they also point out that this means the timing and speed of your lead attack is even more crucial, as if you move TOO slow, the repelling force would engage and naturally push your strike away. My apologies if I am just remembering the books, it’s been a while since I’ve read them.

[@rutgerdemuelenaere2363]

I would definitely recommend reading the book, it actually goes into how fighting-styles have adapted to shield-use. But the best tactic in fighting opponents wearing Holzmann shields (the shields used in Dune) are remote operated lasguns, but that is frowned upon.

[@JohnA...]

Unless its a suicide mission. But you have to get further into the books to find much of the technical detail of the Dune universe.

[@rutgerdemuelenaere2363]

@@JohnA... True, on both counts. And a lot of the background (including the invention of the shields) was included in the Expanded series, written by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, which, while I like them, aren't as good as Frank Herbert's original series.

[@anselme198]

yeah, also in the movie, we don't realize the struggle of Paul in the fremen fight, he is trying to adapt as much as he can to unshielded combat, which he isn't used to.

[@Neverwas_one]

Yea it’s frowned upon because it creates an atomic blast

[@SendarSlayer]

@@anselme198 And in the book Paul manages to overcome his instincts because the Fremen leaps forward and a shield's own movement allows things to pass through

[@master-of-frogs5415]

I’d highly recommend the book; in the book itself it’s mentioned that in shield combat “one moves slow on the attack and quick on the defense” with offense mainly acting to lure your opponent into opening themselves up to the slow shield-passing “attack sinister”

[@mr.nobody9697]

That is absolutely awesome. Knew nothing about Dune but really enjoyed the movie and thought the sheild thing was brilliant.

[@LyubomirIko]

Dune's shield idea is completely dumb. The people have this ultra-tech that protects them from the real danger, but are dying out from simple no velocity cuts. Makes no sense for people who have the first technology to be unable to make or wear extremely light chain mail/fabric than protects them from simple cuts with no velocity.

[@mr.nobody9697]

@@LyubomirIko well they were wearing armor.

[@LyubomirIko]

@@mr.nobody9697 Ugh???

[@olorin3815]

@@LyubomirIko well its not a normal blade its some super sharp energy thingy or something so would cut through metal i guess the very stupid part is where shield and a lasgun explode like a nuclear bomb if you shoot the shield you can just send a drone shoot the shield laugh as enemy army and camp is destroyed before you get anywhere near them

[@pepps779]

Seems like rapid projectile weapons that release toxic gases, etc on impact would be pretty effective.

[@gabegu5102]

The shields provide some protection against some gasses as well. That is how the Baron survived the Dukes last stand with the poison tooth.

[@ChiGyu620]

Slow-moving poison darts are a common ranged weapon in Dune. I think we sorta see that once or twice in the movie.

[@warhammer8867]

Acid Grenade Rounds impact the shield and release high amounts of acids that pour on the enemy's face and incapacitate or immobilize the person's senses. Or use the US Special Force Blackout rifle, that rifle can fire rifle rounds at subsonic speed that can easily be passed through the shield passive detection.

[@edwinstafford287]

The tl;dr version is the rapier, which is mentioned in the book. a thrust from a rapier slips through the shield, but they didn't use it in the movie, favoring arnis instead.

[@AIRGEDOK]

The defender in shield combat can block attacks by moving quickly, this can be achieved by covering distance by also by twisting and dodging. Twisting your body can cause the shield to move quickly making the relative speed in relationship with a blade attack fast enough to deflect attack. Shield combat should see slow attacks and acrobatic defense, all the times Shad blew a gasket seeing acrobatic sword combat where the back gets exposed briefly now become viable because as long as the person wearing the shield can keep their body moving at greater than 6 cm/sec then they are safe. Spinning and exposing your back briefly isn't bad in shield combat because your back isn't exposed it is shielded and any attack quick enough to strike at the "opening" is moving to fast to penetrate the shield.

[@iggbomb]

regardless though since grappling would be an important part of combat with shields as he states you would never want to give your back anyway cause that would leave you tremendously exposed for easy control in grappling. having an opponents back puts you at a major advantage. so shield or no giving your back would be a bad call and lead to you giving opportunity for your opponent to control you and then slowly drive a blade in after. however I have not read the book either so I cede that there may be some element to shields I don't know about.

[@fendelphi]

@@iggbomb I agree. Because the range of combat is much closer, turning your back to the opponent would be just as silly with a shield, as without it. Another thing is, if part of your defense relies on continous movement(which would be tiring in prolonged combat/duels), you would want to cut out any unecessary movements that does not provide the "flow" between fast and slow strikes. Turning your back to your opponent would stop your flow of strikes, so it would be energy wasted, even if the opponent did not take advantage of the poor flow.

[@danlotroth9231]

Which is why the bene gesuit style of fighting was such a boon for Paul n others in the book series

[@bombomos]

Though from what I've seen say for like a dart, it gets "stuck" in the shield so it twists with your body...... Could be a way to disarm an opponent

[@thenoisyninja]

To add onto this, combat in Dune involves slights of hand and deception. They use a lot of feints to disguise when they intend to land the killing blow so they move in close to limit vision and to disorient.

[@charleshurst1015]

The books also get into the intellectual aspect of shield combat - a killing blow often requires that you trick your opponent into a misstep so they walk into your blade. It's used to contrast the much more brutal style the Fremen use, because Shields attract worms, so Fremen don't use them.

[@TheDrCN]

Combat between individuals is a metaphor for broader conflict in their society. The contrast is between the assassination-warfare practiced by the nobility, with their sophisticated scheming and underhanded tactics, against the straightforward honesty of a good old fashioned commoner's sword to the face.

[@daxlucero2437]

Why doesn’t anyone use fucking plate armor, only vulnerable if you are pinned down, or against blunt force. So effectively invulnerable

[@charleshurst1015]

@@daxlucero2437 Presumably, there's no super material that creates better protection than a personal shield that's also as portable. Named drawbacks are not really seen as drawbacks because (if I remember correctly) the Sardukar are the only ones who use Lasguns and NOBODY goes into the deep desert on Arrakis (well, nobody wearing a shield-belt anyways 😉).

[@christerarnoldbordon9129]

@@daxlucero2437 they did, the invaders are deck out in plate armor while the Atreides soldiers didn't because they are in a desert planet, caught unprepared, but that doesn't make you invulnerable as plates have gaps too, and knives are good for that as well, you also have to slow down to explore those spots so the fight would essentially be a grapple with lots of poking

[@unmessable12]

@@daxlucero2437 They do. You see many forces in the film using plate armor. The Atreides soldiers didn't during the invasion cuz they were taken completely by surprise. And I'm assuming Paul doesn't have armor during his training scene because his training was probably focused around dueling or defending against assassins.

[@GFortz]

Book nerd here. In the books, while the weapons given the most focus are the sacred Krisknives of the Fremen, among the nobility like Atreides and Corrinos, the favourite was actually be a rapier - or, more specifically, a rapier-and-dagger combo. The reason for this would be that while yes, the first strike will not be lethal, the enemy will be busy pushing the blade away, opening themselves up to a lethal followup. There is a richly descriptive scene in Dune's Messiah where one of the characters trains in that exact style, with special emphasis being put on the "attack-parry-counter" phrase.

[@ManiakGear]

It's one of the bigger aspects I really appreciated about Dune, when Frank wrote it he knew actual future space battles would actually be boring, and came up with a simple, but believable in world mechanic that gave an excuse for badass sport style melee sword fighting in space. Looking at you Star Wars...

[@lkrnpk]

Frank knew a lot of things, like banning thinking machines/AI... I think he was correct in that way too, that as soon as you have thinking machines, you are not that far way from AI and then from super intelligent AI and that would render humanity as such irrelevant, not to speak about combat or anything. So he made it sure that all such technology was forbidden and heavily regulated. It is a really thought out universe, not like Trek or Star Wars and some others which have flaws in how their universes operate and contradictions, like why AI exists and it has not outcompeted humans completely. And the reasoning for intelligent machine/AI ban was also carefully thought through, not like some other universes after that when this trope has also been used but it is not explained why would society go for such a measure, usually they just come up with ''it was done after AI war with humans that humans won'', but IMHO such a ban should come before any such war happens because... humans ain't going to win that war :D Even now I can see how that reasoning could be applied, I think in UK or somewhere they banned cell phones at schools... and say when ChatGPT 7 can solve all the math problems and our children in schools get worse and worse at Maths and just rely on ''AI'' to do problem solving and ''thinking'', if we were under a single government like in Dune universe, it would not be hard to see that there was a shift away from thinking technology to enhancing human capabilities in various ways, but... since we are a fragmented world there will always be someone pushing AI to its limits, so Butler's Jihad scenario does not seem plausible here...

[@DaShikuXI]

I think a man catcher would be an incredibly good weapon. It could still catch a person regardless of their shield, since the shields are form fitting. You can then use the man catcher to push them down or into a wall or something, and finish them off with a long blade or spear from a safe distance. Maybe the man catcher itself has a spike that can be pushed out slowly.

[@Riot076]

Great idea! I can totally imagine specialised battle formations made of frontline with mancatchers followed by a line with long spears or even pikes

[@tulkdog]

It would be pretty awful in 1 vs 1 combat though.

[@The9gods]

I was thinking the exact same thing. I was also thinking flashbangs could work well too. If we assume the shield blocks the sound, then we still have a blinding light and given the fact they can obviously still see it would still be quite effective.

[@DaShikuXI]

@@The9gods Light is actually an interesting point. Why doesn't the shield block out light? Are light particles too small? Is there a special exception for light?

[@garbuz3324]

@@DaShikuXI I believe objects of that scale operate according to Quantum mechanics, and not Newtonian mechanics. Therefore, they could be affected differently, or not at all, by the shield.

[@seannorthern8854]

Just a thought: The books describe the Holtzman shield generators as being able to change settings. The slower the missile had to be to pass through the shields, the more power required. Does a great job of explaining why orbital bombardment just wasn't a thing.

[@jamesmortimer4016]

If only there was something that could slow down a falling object... Maybe some sort of rocket that pushes the object upwards... Or like a big umbrella on top of it.

[@seannorthern8854]

@@jamesmortimer4016 fun physics: take a metal object, and drop it down a magnetised tube... eerily similar to the proposed Holtzman effect!

[@christophergreen6595]

@@jamesmortimer4016 they did show some nice 'slow bombs' in the movie. The other canon reason there isn't orbital bombardments... thr guild has a monopoly on interstellar travel and is officially neutral. Transporting attack fleets is a big no-no... hence the emperor/guild/harkonnen colluding in secret.

[@jamesmortimer4016]

@@christophergreen6595 I know the guild is pretty mutch in controle. That's why noone would ask questions if they acidentaly lost a large amount of fuel containers while in orbit and tried to slow their decent so it could be retrieved later. Real shame it detonated.

[@wallythetrooper9127]

Yeah and that's why noble houses (like the Harkonans) can subjugate their populaces so easily and why dog fighting isn't (very) conman and why hitting an army of men on the ground is so redundant, sure, a solder hit by something like that might be thrown around like a rag doll and even get traumatized, but you'l live. :)

[@tonycampbell1424]

I could definitely see the Dune universe employing the Mancatcher as a weapon, especially in a phalanx sort of setting. One man to grab the enemy, and a spearman to strike the blow sinister through the shield while they're immobilized at range.

[@UndecidedCryptid]

One thing that occurred to me is a form of deflection of moving quickly into the blade. If you can anticipate a slow strike you can move into the strike to block it with the shield. Definitely favors rushing the opponents.

[@francesco8000]

I believe that another reason for using shortswords, Daggers and spears is that with all those weapons you have a lot of control of the blade. I think (correct me if i'm wrong) that the "trick" while fighting is to launch a strike at full speed but then slow down at the last second in order to pass the shield.

[@garethbaus5471]

Which would take a lot of skill.

[@ANunes06]

@@garethbaus5471 Less with those weapons than, say ... a longsword or (heaven forbid) nunchucks.

[@uncletiggermclaren7592]

@Miles Doyle Keep your superstition to yourself ! We are talking about Science Fiction here ! :P

[@garethbaus5471]

@Miles Doyle how about no

[@maximeteppe7627]

My recollection from reading the book a few years back is that, like the first sparring match between Gurney and Paul, a lot of focus is put on feints and attacks that your opponent doesn't see coming - distraction and mental games in order to slip an attack under your eyes and your shield at the same time.

[@OutlawMaxV]

I was really hoping you'd do analysis of practicality of shields and melee combat in new Dune movie. Nice one Shad!

[@daznis]

I think it's kinda sad that they don't go into other kind of weapons. Ropes, hooks, nets or other things that help you limit the persons movement. Or if something futuristic lets say some resin or plastic shooter to cover the shield in a suffocate the target or lock his movements. It kind of looks cool, but it's so impractical in reality that nobody would use it for personal defense. Your basically a walking nuclear bomb. Why would I send an army of those bombs when one soldier will be enough to wipe out the whole army with a single shot?

[@wayothefro3249]

@@daznis Because using nuclear weapons in the Dune universe is extremely illegal and would result in your house being destroyed by all the others. The explosion caused by a lasgun interacting with a shield is similar to a nuclear explosion and could result in what I mentioned. Also, a resin or plastic shooter would have to cover at least their head to be effective at suffocating, which would be impossible if it is fired at a high speed as it would just bounce off the shield before it even had the chance to suffocate or restrict someone's movements.

[@isaiah4tone]

The shields in Dune are just next level for me. They are literally ingenious and I loved seeing them in the film!

[@JaeshaunDT]

one of my favorite implementation of shields was in a fallout new vegas mod. they came in about five different classes, which determined effectiveness against the form and rate of damage, to the degree of force.

[@isaiahsmith7123]

The battle sequence on the Harkonnen strike of Arrakeen was just incredible. Especially the Atreides spear line. I see them using the spears as crowd control and disorientation while setting up kill strikes.

[@nathanhingson7048]

was something i was thinking about, a spear formation could be great and you just give everyone blades in addition. i believe it's called a porcupine formation where it's layers of spears that are like a foot or so behind each other. in that sort of formation the front might not stop an initial charge but would slow them down for the layer behind to pierce and it would be a hell of a thing to go against a set formation like that which has enough soldiers.

[@isaiahsmith7123]

@@nathanhingson7048 Exactly!! It appeared that they were attempting to show something like that in the film.

[@BlackEpyon]

I love how the gravity bombs had to slow down in order to penetrate the Atredies frigate's shields.

[@isaiahsmith7123]

@@BlackEpyon That was such a brilliant touch and it really added.to the world, it was like "well of course they would have a slow bomb to penetrate sheilds"

[@WisdomThumbs]

What you're describing is called "catching them sinister" in the books. Shields also produce a burning ozone smell when they make contact with one another, and the stronger you dial up your shield (to the point you can't breathe), the more "slippery" you become, because your atoms aren't making contact with the environment anymore.

[@Tennouseijin]

As for the air issue, wouldn't even the aforementioned 6 cm/s block most of the air from passing through? Apparently, the average speed of air particles is about 500 m/s.

[@WisdomThumbs]

@@Tennouseijin Yes. In training with Gurney Halleck, a fit and athletic Paul feels short of breath after less than a minute of sparring. And the Baron survives a highly lethal gas attack because his shield was turned all the way up.

[@uncletiggermclaren7592]

@@Tennouseijin Brownian Motion. If it stopped that, all sorts of secondary effects would take place. Water wouldn't evaporate from your eyes or sinus passages, and most importantly your sweat would not cool you. ( all essential to long term human survival ) Chemical reactions rely to a large degree on Brownian motion too. They wouldn't proceed at the same speed as they do, if you stopped them moving.

[@Tennouseijin]

@@uncletiggermclaren7592 I'm not sure if this differs between books and movies, but I thought the shields are projected a small distance from your body, not exactly on the surface. For example, didn't hunter-seekers rely on slowly passing through the shield, then attacking the victim once they are between the shield and the victim? As such, evaporation would only stop once the air under the shield gets saturated with water. Although I'm not sure how feet are shielded from below, if it would be a significant distance from your soles (like a few centimeters), it would seriously mess up walking. When you quickly move your leg it would stop a few centimeters above the floor... and then slowly sink towards the floor as if you were walking in mud or swampland, I think? Also, I think, though I'm not sure (gotta read those books... I'm only familiar with the Lynch movie, video games and the board game), that usually the shield would go over your clothes, and over your weapon. Although, I think choosing not to shield your weapon was also possible? I think in the Lynch movie, I've seen both shielded weapons, and weapons extending past the shield.

[@uncletiggermclaren7592]

@@Tennouseijin I read the stories as they were first published, my friend, and can hardly remember details now. :) ACTUALLY I am now Great Uncle Tigger, and one of my great nephews looks very like he is going to get his girlfriend to oblige me with a GREAT GREAT title. tl:dr I am old. :)

[@timotheus489]

seems to me one of the best weapons you could use in this situation is an enveloping one; a net, lasso, bolo, etc. You do not have to penetrate the shield to pin your opponent, then once they are tied up you can close with a dagger.

[@bangscutter]

The Holtzmann shield is inspired by real world physics called Lenz's Law. Non-ferrous metals moving through a strong magnetic field will feel a resistive force proportional to their velocity. This means the faster the metal moves, the more force it encounters. We have seen this demonstration in high school physics classes, where a magnet is dropped through a copper or aluminium tube, and it falls very slowly. The magnetic resistive force counters the gravitational force, resulting in the magnet moving at constant speed down the tube. This is the principle for magnetic braking for vehicles. The limitations of this real world physics is that it only works for metals. Non-metals would not encounter this resistance. Whereas the fictional Holtzmann shield works for all fast-moving objects, metal or not. It's also impractical to use the Lenz's Law effect to generate personal shields, since you would need giant coils and battery packs, which cannot be miniaturised in practical sense for a human being. That's what makes sci-fi tech believable. It's within the realm of possibility but just that little bit of step out of reach with current technology.

[@danbell3827]

Especially when you look back at some of the tech we have now, and how 50 years ago it was "totally impossible" or at least only theory. in ww2 we KNEW that radar was foolproof, other than actively blocking or jamming it. If it was there, you could see it. Now, we have jets that are largely invisible to it. Aircraft designs like forward swept wings were impossible to fly, until composite materials and fly-by-wire tech made them doable. Who knows what will come along next?

[@Knihti1]

"Killing with the point lacks artistry, but don't let that hold your hand when the opening presents itself."

[@Knihti1]

"The good knife fighter thinks on point and blade and shearing-guard simultaneously. The point can also cut; the blade can also stab; the shearing guard can also trap your opponent's blade."

[@Knihti1]

"Keep the mind on the knife and not on the hand that holds it. The knife is more dangerous than the hand and the knife can be in either hand."

[@slayer0235]

Combat pragmatism at its finest

[@AzraelThanatos]

Another interesting thing about the shield fighting training is that it also created it's own issues, at least in the books (I have yet to see the new movie, but I have read almost all of the books [I gave up when the Jihad books were coming out], seen the old movie and both mini-series as well as a lot of other things). Paul's first duel with the Fremen had most of the Fremen thinking that Paul was a sadist and Stilgar believed they may have just let a snake into the group following it because they thought Paul was playing with Jamis during it...until he learned about the reasons for how Paul fought and wasn't used to fighting unshielded foes. Also, in the open desert of Arrakis, using a shield was a horrific idea because it attracts the worms

[@josefkun7466]

Watch it in theatre its amazing. I only read the first book, several times tho.

[@Fusso]

@@josefkun7466 You should read at least the second one. It's very short and in my opinion required to have some closure with the plot of the first one. It's almost like an epilogue.

[@riverbreda5414]

This is in the movie to just more subtle

[@joshuagraham2843]

what happens when a jedi using lightsaber fight against energy shield atreides or harkonnens how will that work?

[@AzraelThanatos]

@@joshuagraham2843 Who knows, a lightsaber works on different mechanics than the stuff in Dune.

[@SoloTraceur]

There’s a trilogy of books called Earth Invaded which is like a futuristic telling of Robin Hood. Aliens invade and they have personal energy shields around them that protect them from the energy weapons that the Earth forces use. Sergeant Hood and his team find out that physical objects can get through the alien shields so arm themselves with bows, crossbows, swords etc from a museum and lead a rebellion. Loved it as a kid.

[@oddanbail3606]

Yes, a wonderful concept! it's worth admitting a great job to Frank Herbert, but there is a giant hole. if the warrior puts it on the body. an ordinary chain mail of the 14th century - he is absolutely invulnerable. Simple armor of a medieval knight (gambeson, chain mail, armor) + energy shield give 100% protection from bullets and arrows and 100% from cuts and piercing. since in order to pierce armor, chain mail and gambeson requires a lot of kinetic energy and therefore speed.

[@user-vp9lc9up6v]

You know Napalm doesn't move that fast

[@ribbit876]

Ever seen the pneumatic spike they kill cattle with. I'm thinking something smaller maybe with a diamond tip drive it with a blank cartridge. Push through shield and pop .

[@arcuscerebellumus8797]

not to mention the whole lasgun nuclear explosion part, right?

[@KoishiVibin]

@@ribbit876 No diamond tip. Shorter, fatter, expanding tip. Terminal effect guaranteed. Or spinning device that cuts like blender once through the shield. All you must do is put device within the barrier.

[@matutinojoaquinable]

contrary to popular belief, dune shields DO block air.

[@aeringothyk5445]

This is actually a situation in which I think the assassin‘s creed wrist blade would be the best weapon in this universe. Since all you have to do is get your hands under the shield, ejecting a blade while you’re grappling the opponent would be the easiest way to kill them

[@marsan1701]

Yeah! Never thought of that

[@mattryan7124]

That’s why they have hidden ejectors and other types of body mounted weapons. Similar to what Faed Harkonnen uses in his duels.

[@spooky4223]

That would work

[@HandofNot]

The only issue is that your opponent will parry your hand with a dagger or kindjal before your hand is within the shield.

[@redbeard9136]

The hidden blade, or pretty much any OTF, lacks the power to inflict significant damage. A pneumatic slaughtering gun would works wonder as that guy said earlier

[@nimrodd000]

They actually do address longswords in the prequel novels. When Duncan Idaho (Jason Mimosa from the films) attends swordmaster acadamy, he is instructed in the reasons longswords aren't used, and they are the reason outlined in this video: they are unwieldy for the closer quarters of shield fighting.

[@MaxRideout]

"Mimosa" 🥂😂

[@gracefool]

That said, most people think the prequels suck, they're not canon.

[@vine01]

@@gracefool the houses trilogy did the least harm. i can digest them. the rest is abomination.

[@Serelenntidude]

Still would prefer a longsword. 100%.

[@AChang80]

Mimosa! I died

[@JammedPath]

You and your brother have the same sense of humor and i love it

[@Byrnzi360]

Those edits where you exchanged swords and daggers were really impressive. Good work.

[@sharkinahat]

Dune is definitely worth reading. Maybe the whole series is a bit much, but the first book is almost a must-read.

[@genestealerjon3033]

I think the two books following are much better than the first Dune.

[@sarahluchies1076]

I was introduced to Dune last Christmas by my husband, and I love it. I haven't read beyond the first book yet, but I will when I get the opportunity.

[@stevekillgore9272]

Agreed 1000%

[@mileswellington-deanda3902]

Just read the first 6 books by Frank and the prequel books by Brian. Brian and Kevin's end to the series was messy as af

[@igorlukyan206]

Not to mention that even if you lunge with a long sword slow enough, the enemy could “speed up” towards you and make the shield activate regardless

[@hyperon_ion9423]

“Ramming” the opponent would become a viable _defense._

[@hawkins347]

Or just easily deflect it

[@superslash7254]

@@hyperon_ion9423 It already is. Getting inside someone's swing and taking the hit on your terms is one of the first tactics against someone with a bludgeoning weapon.

[@onedeadsaint]

first video here. have to say your sales pitch at the start: very effective, got one on the way now!

[@verfugbarkite]

Thought rapier, and actually a sharp, stiff bladed version of the feder, is the way to go. Chop doesn’t work, only a drawing slice and stab pen the shield. The knife/kindjal could be worn ready for close-in used in a quick-draw.

[@wearenumbooone8434]

CHAINMAIL PRINT HOODIE? CHAINMAIL PRINT HOODIE!

[@rikospostmodernlife]

That has _duelo a muerte con cuchillos_ energy

[@rainwalker3515]

I feel like you're trying to tell me something.

[@ODeHerranen]

"The slow blade penetrates the shield" was quite inadequate way to explain the shields weakness. Daggers and short swords were most effective because fighters had to strike fast but slow the movement of their blade before it hit the shields. This would be impractical with heavier blade that carries more momentum. I don't think it was possible to hit the shields and then force the blade trough. In the books they thought Paul was toying with Jamis not because he had not killed a man before and was unwilling to deliver a finishing blow but because he was used to fight with shields so he slowed his attacks just before hitting Jamis leaving time for him to react.

[@sovereign1160]

Yeah, I'm quite sure that if you impact the shield you need to withdraw the weapon or the shield will just keep resisting. It's not like you hit the shield, stop, then push the blade through. You would have to stop short of the shield and then push through. The shield activates based on kinetic energy of the blow, if you keep the pressure on after the blow the shield just stays up and you can't get through.

[@runkurgan]

@@sovereign1160 & @ODeHerranen I had to scroll too much to find a good explanation. You guys get my upvote!

[@danilooliveira6580]

@@sovereign1160 the book is not very clear about that, because you could simply stop pushing for the shield to deactivate and push again slower. but from what I read it seem the shield literally deflects the strikes, so I assume they would make the weapon bounce or slide off.

[@thegman81]

@@danilooliveira6580 Actually the books and movies are clear on this. The initial hit will stop a object, but if they continue thru they will penetrate the shield. The new movie shows Duncan very clearly impacting a shield and slowing slicing thru an enemy. Similarly, the seeker projectiles they fire a couple times travel fast at the target, impact the shield, and then slowly advance, unless deflected as Duncan did. Leto was shot with a seeker that slowly penetrated his shield from the back as well.

[@thegman81]

Actually Jessica monologues internally that Paul's slow reaction on attack is a shield fighting technique in the book, but when questioned about it, Paul actually states "I did not want to kill him" in the book, explaining the hesitancy to attack. Either way the Fremen thought he was toying with Jamis. The new movie makes it even clearer as they skipped the internal monologue and Jessica flat out states he's never killed before.

[@en6853]

Haven’t watched a video in a while shad. You look great man. You’ve lost some weight. Glad you’re still making great content

[@triggerhappynumskull]

Loving the brief cameo of Dies Irae at the beginning there

[@EngineeringWizard11]

I was impressed with the movie's faithfulness to the source material. Really hoping they keep the series going!

[@looneypengu]

Sequel already announced for 2023

[@stevekillgore9272]

Somewhat faithful , for the 40% they bother to cover

[@EngineeringWizard11]

@@stevekillgore9272 Indeed. Seems set up for a trilogy.

[@GrayghostAlpha]

As a shield wearer you would also want to move quickly *into* incoming attacks rather than away from them; this would increase the relative velocity of an attack and make the shield more likely to deflect the attack, whereas moving away might allow the blow through. Likewise, attackers would move in ways that decrease the relative velocity of their attack in order to penetrate the shield. The resulting fighting style would probably look so "unrealistic" to a real world audience that it will never be filmed, but if we're going to speculate we might as well go all the way.

[@shelbykingnfs7216]

My thoughts exactly. You would see something similar to anime fights almost where punches and kicked are blocked by punching or kicking back. As you said, attackers would then move to decrease the relative speeds of their attacks so, so figuring out who is winning would almost be the inverse of a traditional fight, where the faster of the two combatants is generally seen as the one at an advantage. I wonder also if in such a universe you would see more in the way of blades with a pivoting grip, such that after landing a strike, the blade stops whilst the grip continues to move in the direction of the cut, allowing the arm of the wielder to maintain some momentum for when the blade does eventually go through the shield

[@nanatzaya]

So finally the jumping back while punching move makes sense. 🤣 But yeah, i came to the same conclusion. Moving into strikes should be a good defense, backing away a sure way to getting yourself killed.

[@andmicbro1]

That's a good point why a sword would be less effective though too, since with a shield you'd want to close the gap as quickly as possible, and throw off any attacks from further away.

[@kevlar8847]

I can see it now: protagonist grapples enemy falling to the ground and while the protagonists blade is moving with enemy shield; nearing a zero relative movement. when they hit the ground his blade can enter the body.

[@davyc412]

This is addressed in the books (not so much in the 2021 version). They say explicitly that one should be "Fast on defense, slow on attack." which Implies that they actively use the shield to block attacks with arms and hands etc. The main purpose of an attack is to throw your opponent off and have them make a mistake to open them up to a slow blade. This is also highlighted When Paul fights Jamis he has to remember he is not fighting with a shield, so he can't just parry his blade with his body.

[@demodave6054]

Would love to see a fight scene break down of prince nuada vs hellboy and his brief training scene. And the fact he uses a spear is really cool since you dont see much of that in film. Also keep up the good work shad.

[@rainbowappleslice]

I loved how they adapted the orbital bombardment by the harkonnen’s to factor in the shields, with the charge/explosive dropping quickly then slowing down right above the shield to pass through before detonating

[@LaineyBug2020]

They adopted the fighting style of fast on defense slow on attack. They accelerated their own body towards the attack to offset the opponent using a slow strike, and learned to counter with a slow attack at the same time. It's very interesting to read how Paul has to readjust when he's fighting Jamis because he was trained with a shield and they think he's slowing the attacks to toy with Jamis. I encourage you to read the book, it's very awesome. Because of the mandates against Thinking Machines, alot of their society has reverted to medieval constructs. I think you'd like it!

[@StevenHouse1980]

Shad in Dune Combat comes in three forms. 1st all out War Combat Energy Shield and Body Armor. 2nd Honor Duel no Energy Shield or Body Armor, and 3rd Assaination Target, just kill them if you can. Considering the Body Armor looks to be segmented plate. So even geting past any energy shield, a short sword/dagger would be a smart choice, to stike between the armor gaps.

[@codrincx]

Aren't official honor duels shielded? But with no armor? Mostly because the form of combat practiced is all about going through a shield, so it needs to be there in order to justify what both fighters have learned. It's been a while though since I read the first Dune book, but I think in the Kanly between Paul and Rautha they did both use shields.

[@Bkwrm88]

Yeah, honor duels are for sure shielded. In the book it is explicitly mentioned that Paul's reactions are timed for shielded combat, and it was a bit of a problem for him in the (SPOILER FOR THE MOVIE) duel against Jamis in the book, because he instinctively slowed his strikes to bypass a non-existent shield. I wanna say that the (SPOILER FOR PART 2 MAYBE) duel agianst Feyd-Rautha was unshielded in the Fremen tradition, though, but I don't remember for sure.

[@gavinclark6891]

or shield plus double shields and armor

[@AegixDrakan]

At that point, if you're trying to assassinate a shielded target, the smartest option sounds like a Garrote wire of some kind. The speed at which you loop it doesn't matter too much, as the real damage comes after.

[@carbonbeaker409]

@@AegixDrakan The issue with that, is that garottes are very easy to counter if they are moving slowly.

[@Suntoria236]

My thought immediately went to those rocket-propelled bullets used by the Astartes in Warhammer 40k, they’d stopped by the Dune shield but push their way through and hit the target within

[@cristianocarta8960]

I think is so interesting that in order to enable the blocking of the shield you have to accelerate towards your opponent's slow blow. I think we see this concept in the film, in all that fast movements especially in the training scene. Plus, longer weapons have disadvmantage on the start cause more length means more velocity on the tip of the blade :)

[@nightfall4031]

Another reason longer swung weapons would have a disadvantage: Leverage. The end of your weapon is moving much faster than your wrist or arm. Centrifugal force or whatever.

[@JMObyx]

So a Hork-Bajir's blades would be an advantage here?

[@vyktorehon5995]

Also moment of force and stuff

[@Henbot]

You say that when the Atredius in the 2021 film soldiers used pikes

[@Nuvizzle]

@@Henbot You thrust a pike, you don't swing it.

[@4everscifi]

What about a Molotov? Would it burn inside the shield or outside? Cooking an enemy inside his own shield seems like a really nasty way to discourage the use of shields.

[@Te0L0ser]

I would probably stop drop and roll, whether or not its in or out of the shield but that is interesting. Is this shield capable of blocking burning fuel, it shouldn't after it's settled but I would imagine most of it would slip off before it penetrates.

[@MajorSebbaa]

Good thinking. Or, better yet, a flame thrower. Even if the flames are blocked by the shield, what about the radiating heat? And what would you breath?

[@fabiopauli420]

The Bottle would bounce off without breaking, once it hits the ground than its a different story, The liquid could pass through the shield outside the splashs, glass shards would be bouncing off but the alcohol flowing ad spreading over the ground would get into the shield and you start burning inside it, since air can pass through it, it has enough oxygen to burn than.

[@spamhonx56]

My first thoughts were similar: fire, or gas. Speed isn't really a factor for either.

[@ryngobrody1627]

Poison gas or tear gas would work great too

[@tomnorway8673]

Impressive analysis. I was inclined to comment at the start when you talked about long sword and reach, but your conclusion was sound.

[@johnsandfort8908]

The book specifically mentions rapiers being used as a primary weapon, with a knife or dagger (kindjal or bodkin, as they call them, no clue how accurate those terms are though) used off-hand. I think rapiers suit the very defense-oriented style of shield fighting, I imagine you'd see a lot of winding at crossed hilts to get an angle for a slow thrust.

[@dylanvickers7953]

I mean, Rapier and Dagger is a very very popular fencing style so it would make sense.

[@Devastish]

Another note on using shorter weapons: It has been a while since I read the book, and I haven't seen the movie yet, but I believe that some sort of armor was commonly used alongside the shield. The combination of the two made it extremely difficult to harm the wearer, and in effect is similar to historical heavy armor. (albeit with the added defense against high velocity projectile weapons). Shad has previously pointed out (or maybe it was Skallagrim? I can't remember) that daggers are surprisingly good at dealing with knights in armor, because it is easier to guide them into the gaps. Knights would try to get their opponents on the ground, then jump on them with the daggers and stab into weak points. This tactic makes even more sense when they have a Dune energy shield because only careful slow strikes will get through. You want to get them down and vulnerable, then precisely slide the dagger into a weak spot. Not all that different from dealing with a knight, just more advanced technology.

[@qgqsrg1]

but do they ever use slash/puncture resistant soft armor alongside the shields? it seems like an obvious choice considering any high velocity impact (weakness of such soft armors) would be blocked by the shield.

[@bryanohara5872]

@@qgqsrg1 it’s not really stated in the books, as Mr. Herbert wrote them before a lot of stab-resistant armors were either invented or brought back from history, but yes shielded soldiers also wore armor or hazardous environment suits.

[@qgqsrg1]

@@bryanohara5872 ok, I guess it s just the usual trope of movie armor being paper armor, and not a fault of the author.

[@bryanohara5872]

@@qgqsrg1 sort of. Most of the “good” weapons had near monomolecular edges, as you need a good sharp edge to make slow draw cuts effective against the armor worn under shields. This is also a galactic/universal society that has had refinement of materials science for millennia and a theocratic stagnation of development of newer tech for millennia as well. So yes, there is within the books justification for the “armor is useless” trope. Hell the sardakur carry monomolecular wire [shiga wire in the book] in their hair for literal decapitation strikes on sentries.

[@qgqsrg1]

@@bryanohara5872 then it s mainly my ignorance about the subject, didn't account for blades able to cut through such armors, but assuming it's not the whole blade that is one molecule thick, how is the rest of the blade not stopped or at least slowed by the armors? And they would need to always get perfect edge alignments or risk dulling/breaking their blades. However what about the teeth of those sandworms? Are they sharpened to that point too or naturally cut through armor like butter? Edit: but yh since it's a sci-fi I can accept "good" blades>armor, kind of counter intuitive when it concerns cold weapons but acceptable I guess.

[@ControlAltSuprimir]

They used spears in the movie/book but only in defense position in large groups where spears disadvantages disappear. Great video! You never disappoint me

[@OrcBro]

It was all explained in the books too. And Shad, it's REALLY a must read. Brilliant books, brilliant universe. You'll love it, trust me.

[@benlzicar7628]

I really enjoyed this video

[@X.Calibur]

How serendipitous it is then that people at this time are more versed in grappling and cqc. It’s as if the fighting style of Dune is more applicable to today’s day and age. If humans could develop movie weapons I would take the Holtzman shield over a light sabre any day.

[@fatcatsnuggleparty4272]

Closest thing to a light sabre we have is a plasma cutter, some engineering youtuber group made a lightsabre sort of with modern limitations and no magical crystal voodoo.

[@kakerake6018]

i would take literally anything else over a light saber(not being a jedi)

[@jamesharding3459]

If we're going by sci-fi rules, I want a simple railgun. I don't care how powerful your shield is, a 2kg tungsten cylinder moving at .5% the speed of light will turn you into a fine red mist.

[@shmekelfreckles8157]

@@jamesharding3459 2 kg projectile? Now that’s a big gun.

[@jamesharding3459]

@@shmekelfreckles8157 For a rifle, sure. For man-portable artillery, moderate. For real artillery, nope. Oh hell no.

[@goyasolidar]

In shield combat, the speed with which you can bring a weapon to bear trumps all other considerations. There's a scene in the film where a sardaukar trooper fires off a maula pistol at Duncan Idaho and he manages to deflect it with his blade just as the dart is burrowing through his shield.

[@AngelusAnsell]

For the record you can basically trick your shield into thinking an object is moving too fast simply by moving *into* any incoming strike. The books demonstrate this multiple times.

[@tmac8396]

This was the same type of weapon used by Dr. Yueh uses on the guards to disable the main shields, and against Duke Leto, who couldn't reach the area it was coming at his back.

[@AngelusAnsell]

@@tmac8396 as discussed in other comments, maula pistols only work against shields specifically in the movies. in the books, the harkonnens used plain old artillery specifically because shields were NOT EVER to be used on Arrakis on or near the open desert. For the same reason, they would have zero qualms about using a lazgun against a ship, with no way of knowing it was shielded...because it shouldn't have been.

[@redharvest298]

@@AngelusAnsell "used plain old artillery" They also used them to bring down the caves that Atredies soldiers had fallen back to to bury them alive. The guns were not used to directly fight shielded opponents.

[@ShiningDarknes]

@@AngelusAnsell which is why they try to shoot Duncan out of the sky with a laser.

[@arthurdowney2846]

The first book actually mentions some of these points, highly recommend reading/listening to it!

[@PhilmannDark]

I was thinking the same thing but then I found that air MOLECULES (i.e. the stuff you breathe) move *way* faster than 6 m/s. So no air for you. The good news: The attacker can simply pommel the shield wearer (without any effect whatsoever) until shield-boy falls unconscious. And then drop him from the roof or something. You also can't reach through the shield (and strangle someone) for the same reason: Your whole hand moves slowly but the molecules vibrate very quickly and if you don't stop the molecules, I join the battle field with a water gun that shoots a single strand of water molecules. ... Now that would be a cool weapon... "Don't worry, it's just water" :->

[@holz_name]

How much momentum air molecules have? Momentum is p=m*v. The shield works by stopping a high enough momentum. But pommeling your enemy will still work.

[@PhilmannDark]

@@holz_name The momentum is tiny. At the same time, it is applied to a tiny area. So the pressure applied to the spot of the shield where the molecule hits is again high. If molecules can pass, everyone will bring pepper spray to the battle. I stand by my point that most SciFi writers stop when they can create interesting scenes with some imagined technology and don't care how that really would work. Think about these: What happens when you turn the shield on while you lie on the ground or lean against a door? How slippery is the shield? Does it have any friction at all? I imagine all those soldiers sliding around the place when the sergeant isn't looking ... What happens when you fall into water? Can someone throw sand in your eyes? And let's not start with the underside of your boots :-)

[@lukeari9890]

I think you might be overthinking it there with the molecules. Imagine literally any sensor we have today for anything, it's not going to be tracking the individual molecules but rather the overall speed and momentum of the object. Otherwise speed detectors would always register your car going at the speed of molecular vibration which would be absurd. Technically, pepper spray would be an effective weapon in the Dune universe, but just like in real life it's somewhat gimmicky and wouldn't really put off a determined attacker with a knife, or a mask. As for the water gun...good luck showing up to the fight with a massive molecular hyperaccelerator and convincing anyone that it's just water, though that sounds hilarious.

[@SpacePatrollerLaser]

The book had a practical ranged weapon called a "maula pistol" that fired a slow=moving (probably poisoned since they were big into poisons and poisoning) dart

[@AngelusAnsell]

iirc that's a purely movie-only thing. the only ranged weapon that gets past a shield in the novels is a "stunner" which seems to instead emit some kind of pulse wave. The maula pistols were just ordinary pistols that fired shards of material like a Needler.

[@hammadisntreal]

thats in the movie as well im sure when (spoilers) yue shoots leto with a dart and knocks him out even though letos wearing a shield. i was a bit confused as to how the dart got through the shield but ur explanation makes sense

[@SpacePatrollerLaser]

@@hammadisntreal I was disappointed with that. Yueh was trained in the Suk Medical facility. Suk conditional against such things was said to be impervious so that kind of violated one of the underpinnings of the story. Besides which, how did Harkonnen get a hold of Yueh's wife? She was a BG, with all that implied. Old Vlad showould have been left a hulk of a man

[@AngelusAnsell]

@@hammadisntreal what i find hilarious is that in the book all he did was slip everyone a mickey that kept everyone paralyzed for an hour or so while they were all quickly and quietly relocated to the desert. Much less dramatic than a cinematic shootout escape-battle, I'm sure.

[@RobCGodin]

I understood it less 'speed of weapon' rather 'kinetic energy of weapon'. That's why daggers (which require less kinetic energy) are better than a long blade (which needs a lot of energy to move).

[@exomancer3632]

This makes sense, after all, air molecules have very high velocity but low kinetic energy.

[@tmac8396]

The speed of the object passing through the shield is explicitly stated (though not in this movie) MUST be below 6-9 cm/sec, depending on the setting. It it was set to that speed because if the speed setting was TOO low, the user could suffocate. This precludes the "kinetic energy" idea, as different as the shield treats them all the same, air, blade, what have you.

[@Appletank8]

@@tmac8396 Would this mean that only cooler, slow moving air will enter the shield?

[@william_sun]

​@@Appletank8 The average speed of a molecule of oxygen at zero degrees Celsius is nearly 500 m/s. Turning on the shield is going to cause the user to suffocate. In order to slow down oxygen to below 6 cm/s, you need to cool down the air to less than 1/20 of a degree above absolute zero, at which point, the user's lungs will freeze, causing them to suffocate. EDIT: Missed zero in the "1/20".

[@plastictouch6796]

That makes so much more sense, because if it was just velocity then an object with lots of mass and lower acceleration would still work. Or an object with very high acceleration that is very early in it's acceleration with a decent enough mass could easily penetrate the shield and kill you.

[@troybalster3687]

If you thrust then slowly advance the weapon will be "stuck" in the shield and you will not be able to knock it off to the side. You will have to slowly knock the spear to the side to get it off you. With strength behind the spear you will have a person "speared" and stuck on the shield till it eventually gets threw and kills the person.

[@ClaudiusPunchinello]

It depends on how the shield reacts to faster moving objects. If the shield ejects them, any fast relative movement between the shield and weapon will deflect the weapon. This behavior is suggested in the book, where suspensors (which relied on the same effect as shields) were said to be "slippery".

[@Swarm509]

In the books, and I don't think any of the movies have really mentioned it, is that even air movement is reduced through the shields ("molecular interchange across the field barrier" as they say in the book) so there is also a consideration of efficiency of movement and trying to outlast/tire out your opponent similar to when fighting in heavy armor. A tired enemy will be moving slower and less able to stop your slower attacks.

[@BelleDividends]

I remember gladiator fights often using half-shields: your left side is protected, your right side isn't.

[@uncletiggermclaren7592]

That wasn't for a good/logical reason though. It was a stylised depiction of the armor one of Romes famous previous enemies were supposed to wear, and multiple contemporary Roman writers themselves pointed out no one had any real idea if that armor had really existed.

[@Monkeyshaman]

Mummy self report.

[@gordonpromish9218]

@@uncletiggermclaren7592 - Fallen is referring specifically to the bloodsports Feyd Rautha Harkonnen enjoyed on Geidi Prime.

[@dusketeer1783]

So poisoned blades would be better against such a shield. A lethal cut wouldn't be necessary, just enough of a cut to get poison from the blade into a wound. For more reach, maybe use one of those people catcher things you covered, but one with poisoned blades on the inside of the hooked area.

[@crsmith6226]

They actually use that a lot in the books

[@JediMasterKal]

@@crsmith6226 Gom jabbar eh? Yes how about some sort of needle tipped gloves that inject poison with a grasp?

[@mangosteak]

paul use poison, the ne baron of house harconnen uses poison, assasins use poison. In short EVERYONE uses poison

[@sovereign1160]

In the books like basically every weapon should be assumed to be poisoned.

[@SerunaXI]

Poison is so prevalent that they have different words for different methods of poisoning. They have a word for poison in food. A different word for poison in drink. A different word yet for poison in the air. Etc.

[@whaaaaaaap]

That first twenty seconds was the most honest advertising I’ve seen recently.

[@bluegaffer5502]

Would love to see your views on the combat in SEE where sight isn’t possible during combat

[@atraxian5881]

One thing that I was kind of upset about at the end of the movie was the duel with the fremen. In the book Paul is at a disadvantage (initially) because he trained fighting with shields and is not used to faster movements. That was a little extra touch of realism.

[@GodotIsWaiting4U]

I think the movie just didn’t have a good way to explain that difference in that scene, but Jamis is way faster and way higher energy in that scene, Paul is largely defending and countering Villeneuve’s doing it, but not in a way that comes across very clearly

[@bellgrand]

I think the key to that scene is that Paul kills Jamis in the same way he saw Jamis killing him, even holding his hand as he died.

[@Shunieeez]

Remember, Paul had the power of prescience. So perhaps Jamis basically taught him how the Fremen fought

[@Ranger1741]

Yeah and the Fremen thought he was just toying with his opponent and showing off just how much more trained he is.

[@Sarigar]

My thinking was that both Duncan and Gurney would have insisted on Paul learning how to fight both with and without a shield, in order to be as prepared as possible for any eventuality.

[@xtreemgamer129]

another supporting point you could have made: angular momentum. when you swing a weapon in an arc, the longer that weapon is, the faster its tip is moving relative to your hand. so it would be much easier to control the speed for slower initial strikes if that weapon is short.

[@elleCX01]

For longer weapons, why not something like a trident or certain spearheads with fork-like designs? You can use it to trap the opponent's body first and then use your long spear to slowly penetrate and really get in there.

[@existerequo5349]

woooah that's genius! Maybe a collar shaped trident ---€

[@warpdriveby]

I studied Bajiquan for a few years with an excellent teacher, and shield combat has some strong similarities. Attacking into a blow as a defense among them. There are also arts that reference the Bagua, and have 8 aspects or posts one moves through, very similar to a BG art described in Heretics of Dune. I love how even the details of details are preternaturally accurate. Frank Herbert was a wizard. Wow Shad! This is incredibly insightful. In fact, longer blades are carried in the book. They're described only vaguely buy are small sword/rapier/foil hybrids.