How Wrath of Khan Perfected the Star Trek Space Battle

[@barneyrubble1964]

The trouble is that modern Trek has forgotten this and space battles have now become CGI feasts where there is almost zero tension, but a mess of colour where you have no idea what is going on. Capital ships with crews of 200 or more seem to spin and gyrate around like they were single seat X-wings. Wrath of Khan is not only a masterclass in space battles it also shows that sometimes less is more.

[@rudolphguarnacci197]

Same with action movies, car chases, everything.

[@nicholasklangos9704]

Exactly right! That’s what is wrong with the Abrams Trek it’s like Michael Bay in space too much to focus on destroying the beauty of space! Beyond is horrible as is Discovery!

[@joelaton1062]

@@nicholasklangos9704 Nah, Wrath of Khan is not only one of if not the best trek Movie, but one of my favorite movies period. But I like the Abrams movies. Beyond was my least favorite of the 3, but still not horrible. Nothing wrong with good visuals. People say that like its a bad thing.

[@esecallum]

yes. every shot counted.

[@nikademuswtf]

YES. always hated the starships as fighter craft approach of modern trek. the rebooted BSG did it better space battle wise. To be fair though, classic trek blurred the line...."warp speed" tactics vs. impulse tactics. unfortunately the remastered version of classic Trek made the CGI fighter situation even more ridiculous

[@lfroncek]

The final battle in Undiscovered Country is a banger, though also directed by Nicholas Meyer.

[@Phintasmo]

Yeah, when they talk about the even numbered ones being good, they kind of mean the ones Meyer had a hand in.

[@track1949]

Did Meyer retire?? Fwiw his daughter Dylan is engaged to Kristen Stewart.

[@thomasdalimonte8559]

You can 'Cry Havoc' all you want, 😊 but it's still only 2nd best! But I'm biased. My wireframe of the Enterprise,I did in college, is on the wall of the Turbolift in 3 scenes of Wrath of Khan! The 'map' to tell the Turbolift where to go! 😊❤ I met Roddenberry in college and he used my pic in the movie before he got ousted. They left it in, I never got credit or paid, but hey, I got something into a movie! The original 8' version is still on the wall in Roddenberry's office, where his son works! ❤🎉❤

[@johnhallett5846]

@@Phintasmo Star Trek IV?

[@joelsoetendorp3279]

They're the two best battles but in undiscoveed country, its mostly about absorbing pain and khan is about outthinking so it wins it for me

[@nabguy]

Wrath of Khan's finale is a testament to tension increasing the effect of action. Movement and counter movement will always be more satisfying to watch than too many modern era battles, which all too often become a mass of pixels in motion without strategy, story, or geography. If I had a runner up and a worthy successor to TWOK, it would be the finale of "Yesterday's Enterprise"

[@Phintasmo]

TNG was strangely lacking in memorable space battles but Yesterday’s Enterprise is one of the major exceptions.

[@drt1605]

​@Phintasmo Ironically I have argued on several occasions that TNG should have kept the script for that episode in the drawer and thus made Yesterday's Enterprise the ACTUAL theatrical ST7, NOT Generations.

[@skycladobserver9246]

@@drt1605 Definitely agree with you on that one. I despised Generations when I saw it in the theater and have never watched it again. It gave me the same vibes as the SW sequels... just awful.

[@Whalewraith]

The cinematography was superb on the initial encounter, with 2 things going on. An excellent score with the themes practically doing 'duelling banjos' and the way with each cut they zoomed in a little until Khan's money shot when he unleashed the phasers.

[@TheLAGopher]

@@drt1605 That would have made for an interesting first Next Gen film. Would have been cool to have a major Hollywood rising 90s everyman action star such as Nicolas Cage playing Lt.Castillo forced to take command after the death of Captain Garrett. Throw in Michael Dorn playing an alternate timeline Worf as the Klingon task force commander taking on both Enterprises. That final battle could have had TWoK levels of ship destruction depicted on both Enterprises and among the Klingon ships. Imagine Picard taking the tactical station and defiantly firing weapons at the Klingons, then the scene cuts to Worf on the Klingon bridge,saying "Today is a good day to die" as he orders a collision course at the Enterprise D with the ships colliding and exploding as the Enterprise C goes into the portal and resets the timeline. That would have added so much to a Star Trek First Contact sequel when Worf prepares to order the Defiant to ram the Borg cube,and later in the film when he and Picard square off over blowing up the Enterprise to stop the Borg. Having seen Picard and Worf actually do battle and "kill" each other in a prior film, would increase the emotional impact when Worf tells Picard in so many words that only his respect for Picard prevented him from killing him when he called Worf a 'Coward" and later in the film when Picard apologizes and tells Worf he is the bravest man he ever knew.

[@tonyclemens4213]

The battle for Deep Space 9 in Way of the Warrior is also one of the greats. DS9 had some great space battles.

[@christovog]

Absolutely!

[@AdurianJ]

I don't like how DS9 was retrofitted to be able to take on a whole fleet. Babylon 5 did that better at the time.

[@nikademuswtf]

true. they even had some of the biggest ships stand steady even as they were heavily hit. Another problem with the "ships as fighters" approach in CGI is how unrealistically weapons fire would "instantly" knock a starship, large or small around as if it was a Jet in flight. Even if warp/impulse technology allows such "maneuver" the fact remains that these are ships that represent considerable mass. To be thrown around by phaser fire like paper airplanes belies their mass and kills suspension of disbelief.

[@kennethfharkin]

I saw this on the big screen during its original run. I have owned and watched it in multiple formats for decades. I saw it again on the big screen last year for its anniversary. Damn this film holds up and the battles on the big screen still look fantastic.

[@timfrazee5848]

Nice breakdown. I first saw this movie when I was in high school. Over 40 years later, this is still the best space battle in the franchise, and has held up remarkably well.

[@ModelsExInferis]

The shot where the Enterprise rises up right behind the Reliant will, I think, always be one of my favourite shots of any sci-fi film or TV show (the TARDIS flying through the Vortex in the 2005 revived series openings is nipping at it's heals though!). I like Star Wars, but Trek has always been the superior of the two for me, and it's slow, calculated battles like this that make it better, IMHO.

[@rictusmetallicus]

A starship "rising up" behind it's target may look great, but ist as stupid as any other space battle. Since there's no "up" in space, you maneuver tactically into a good shooting angle and the fire.

[@ModelsExInferis]

@rictusmetallicus I bet you're fun at parties. 🙄

[@upbeattvraw-hiphop8242]

@@ModelsExInferis😂😂

[@skycladobserver9246]

@@ModelsExInferis That was a good one lol

[@smgdfcmfah]

@@rictusmetallicus You don't REALLY need a lesson in the special circumstances in place during that scene, do you? The simple point the ship and shoot tactic was all they really had available, so turning an entire starship into an early twentieth century fighter plane really WAS the best tactic. I won't get into the fact that any "space movie" people like you would call "realistic" would be completely unwatchable. This scene was truly classic AND they actually inserted a plausible excuse for it. Now THAT'S movie making!

[@JAGtheTrekkieGEMINI1701]

Never REALLY noticed the literal Clash of "Young VS Old" in Wrath of Kahn. Always focused on the Metaphors... 40 Years later and this Masterpiece STILL surprises

[@tkrys]

The Dominion War really pushed forward on what TWoK established for Trek space battles, showing us that even great naval battles in space reminiscent of the Pacific Theater in WWII were doable and worthwhile.

[@docabrahammd]

Totally agree. The battles in this movie are amazing. The music, the acting, the special effects - everything is perfect!

[@jiminverness]

The way the lights go on, on the panel showing shields going up is pretty poor.

[@larrybremer4930]

My problem is Wrath of Khan does not end with Kirks Court Martial for failing to defend the initial attack on his ship (violation of general orders). From a weaponry standpoint the ships were fairly equal, but under the circumstances Kirk was incompetent in how he hazarded his command due to his own hubris.

[@KipIngram]

This is the best Trek ever made, and also can claim to be a good movie without reference to outside lore at all - it's sufficiently self-contained that it can stand alone. Montalban's acting was award worthy stuff, too. Khan will forever be one of fictions all-time great antagonists.

[@18661873]

And lest we not forget the symbolism derived from the Herman Melville novel, Moby Dick. Kahn the obsessed Ahab. The great white Enterprise rising from from the depths to destroy Kahn's ship. Kahn quoting Ahab's words on the brink of death. And, of course, Moby Dick was one of the novels in Kahn's library on the Botony Bay. A magnificent script indeed.

[@t.robertjohnson7274]

Man I forget how hot Kirstie Alley was!

[@richardlahan7068]

I wish she'd stayed on as Saavik.

[@rudolphguarnacci197]

I didn't!

[@rudolphguarnacci197]

​@@richardlahan7068 Right? Plus, they replaced her with a bad actress.

[@KipIngram]

Yeah, she really was, wasn't she? Later on, in Cheers, she gave Ted Danson's Sam Malone one of the slickest lines ever - they were going out on a date, and he brought a bouquet of roses for her. As he handed them to her, he said "I just wanted to show these flowers what a real long-stem beauty looked like."

[@kevinrethwisch9698]

@@rudolphguarnacci197 She wanted too much money.

[@Joe-cu4hi]

This has gone down as a classic as it rightly should

[@skycladobserver9246]

Wrath of Khan is the greatest depiction of a one 1v1 Star Trek battle. Undiscovered Country was a good battle as well. The upgraded edition of the original series, while keeping the esthetic of the series does look pretty good now.

[@1down4upworkshop61]

Now I'm going to have to watch Particles and Blueprints again .. a very cool rendition of this battle ...

[@JGG1701]

Yep! kzbin.info/www/bejne/aKqvnKVuo7Bjh8ksi=uRV7yFA-irmlDLch

[@hobbs1701a]

One of the best space battles of all time! One of the best sci fi movies of all time!

[@sid2112]

You deserve more subs. Good stuff man.

[@Phintasmo]

Very kind of you to say. This one was fun to make - one of my all time favorite movies!

[@johnnie2638]

Exactly. The space battle in "Khan" is masterfully done with two giant ships moving slowly around each other while keeping the tension high. This is unlike the current Star Trek shows that show these giant capitol ships banking & swooping that just don't make sense and in the end don't have the tension or excitement. One huge difference between "Khan" and today's Star Trek is during the battle in nebula there are long stretches of quiet. This builds tension. It's unnerving. It puts the viewer on the deck of the ship. This is not the case where in the Trek shows space battles are just barely revamped Star Wars battles. I saw "Wrath of Khan" in the theater back in the day. I was young then. I'm in my 60s now. I really appreciate your insight with the comparison between young & old. Something I wouldn't have noticed when I first saw this movie in the 80s. But as an older man today I can enjoy this movie with a renewed interest with an insight I didn't have before. I guess in a way when I first saw this movie I would have been like the inexperienced cadets aboard Enterprise. Whereas now I can see things from the point of view of a bridge officer. Knowledgeable and experienced but past his prime.

[@AllenJones-w3p]

THIS IS CETI ALPHA 5!!!!

[@AskAScreenwriter]

Another factor is the use of the score in each of the battles. The music and themes/motifs for each combatant play a huge role in those scenes.

[@Buc_Stops_Here]

This by far was the best of the Star Trek films. Nicholas Meyer knew what he was doing every time he worked on Star Trek. He rewrote this script in 12 days before taking it on. The 2nd time he worked on the series was as a writer only, for Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. That film was decent. The last film he worked on was the last with the original crew, Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country where he co-wrote with Leonard Nimoy (another good writer and director as well actor) and directed. Meyer also worked on the first season of Star Trek: Discovery but left after that point In 2020 he wrote a script with mockups for Alex Krutzman for a new feature film or TV series, but never heard back and that ended his involvement with Star Trek.

[@christhornley1664]

Agree, I've always loved this movie. Star Trek II Wrath of Khan and Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country are the best films from the first cycle of Star Trek films with the original cast.

[@nicholasklangos9704]

Great analysis and right on! Babylon 5 had some great space battles as did The Expanse . DS9 used the Wrath of Khan formula in the episode Star Ship Down the Defiant had some great moments in that show!

[@paulbeaney4901]

I wish Trek kept the original movie uniforms. They look very dignified.

[@OscarFowler]

I liked when the white-on-grays made it back during the Kelvin timeline movies. Those looked particularly good.

[@NickMichalak]

Bravo, sir! Another fine analysis.

[@Phintasmo]

Loved making it because this is one of my favorite movies - I watch it around Christmas every year!

[@scifiguy26]

Kirk should have raised Shields when spock informed him they were lying about their coil emissions

[@OscarFowler]

That would've made for a very short movie.

[@scifiguy26]

@OscarFowler yeah I know 😆 in that case I'm glad he didn't' this is my favorite Star Trek movie movie🖖

[@skyborne80]

I honestly can't see Kirk not raising shields in this scenario. He's aging and maybe a little out of touch, but he's not stupid. That being said, it certainly would have made for a short movie and this was absolutely the right choice for the narrative.

[@scifiguy26]

@@skyborne80 💯🖖

[@roselima1741]

They dont make them like that anymore...peak shatner. I saw that one in the theater as a kid of 8. I remember almost choking from the lump in my throat at they end. Thank for the analysis and comentary.

[@Phintasmo]

Shatner’s acting has been ridiculed over the years but he’s actually a decent performer. Moments like those in Star Trek 2 prove he can be brilliant under the right circumstances. Edited to add: Spock Dying was one of the saddest movie moments of my childhood - right up there with the Snowman melting.

[@3Rayfire]

@@Phintasmo Well keep in mind that Shatner is a classically trained Shakespearean actor like Stewart and Brooks, but Shatner is a bit more...BLESSED with his style, he goes big for the cheap seats. Meyer had to run a ridiculous number of takes to tire him out so he could be subdued and normal.

[@TheLAGopher]

@@Phintasmo I was 14 when I saw TWoK on opening day and I remember hearing people sobbing when Spock died. When Kirk choked up talking about how Spock's soul was the most "Human" he ever encountered I got something in my eyes too.

[@OscarFowler]

@@Phintasmo If I remember correctly, it's been said that Meyer got that performance out of him by wearing him down with many takes. A skilled director makes all the difference. And I can't help tearing up to this day at Spock's death scene. ;__;

[@SemiStableM]

Love Wrath of Khan, but that is the densest nebula of all time!

[@Phintasmo]

They got this massive glass tank of water, dropped paints and dyes into it and filmed the results. I love the ingenuity that was necessary before cgi.

[@SemiStableM]

@@Phintasmo I didn't know that's how the nebula was made! Cool!

[@3Rayfire]

@@Phintasmo What about stirring glitter in a glass of water for the transporter effects...it honestly still looks better than the modern ones.

[@nickmitsialis]

Not as dense as the Gamma Draconis nebula in Freespace 2

[@3Rayfire]

As far as one on one's only The Battle of Khitomer and the Battle of the Bassen Rift hold up. Voyager's Battle against the Viidians with Tuvok in command was also excellently executed. If it had been in a regular episode or movie instead of a flashback and reenactment, the Battle of Maxia likely would've been top shelf too. Deep Space Nine basically had the monopoly on spectacular fleet actions in Star Trek. Two Battles of Deep Space Nine, the Valiant vs the Dreadnought, The Two Battle of Chintoka, Operation: Return, The Battle of Cardassia. All bangers with different emotions and goals. The Texas Class vs the California class in "The Stars at Night" on Lower Decks is also a great battle.

[@Vanessinha91Pucca]

I don't know if better, but the battle on Yesterday Enterprise also amazes me. The ship can't move as they need to defend the other ship, one that wont help in the fight to enter inside a temporal anomaly. Every single shot also change things, the tactic and the loss of most officers.

[@Phintasmo]

I have to go back and watch that one. TNG was a little lacking in cool space battles but Yesterdays Enterprise is usually in the conversation for the best they ever did.

[@jarekstorm6331]

“Let’s make sure that history never forgets, the name, Enterprise!”

[@pacmac79]

One of the few redeeming things about Star Trek Nemesis is the Battle of Bassen Rift. While computer graphics aren't exactly the iconic models of Enterprise & Reliant of Wrath of Khan, the fight in the nebula between the Enterprise-E & Scimitar, along w/the two Romulan Valdore class ships, was a very entertaining ship engagement. It had elements of the fleet battles of Deep Space Nine but still the one on one combat we all enjoy from classic Trek. Many of those same elements from Wrath of Khan seem to come into play here as well.

[@OscarFowler]

Just wanted to say I found your analysis, writing and editing excellent. I hope you do more!

[@xavier-nj4kk]

Just a superlative commentary on star trek Ii.. excellent job... subscribed... no other movie of that time did it better. Not to mention the compelling musical score... just a masterpiece of film making.... thanks 😊

[@sten1939]

Nicely narrated well produced

[@control4230]

Generally speaking, the fewer the number of ships the better the battle is. The Wrath Of Khan, The Undiscovered Country, Yesterdays Enterprise, The Jem Hadar and Shattered Mirror were all great battles on a small scale. DS9 though did bigger battles very well, The Way Of The Warrior really set the bar high and was a true spectacle. We just hadn't seen big fleet actions in Trek before. Every major fleet engagement of the Dominion War was also fantastic, Sacrifice Of Angels being my favourite. Even though we didn't know the ships or crews of the ships we were watching I still felt some sort of "connection" because they were Starfleet and starfleet were the good guys dammit. There has been a gradual change though where the show creators began portraying these huge capital ships more like nimble torpedo boats. The slower pace of ships slogging it out, dealing and taking damage was swapped for faster paced dog fights. At some point it's like shields stopped being a thing and ships were popping off left right and centre. Babylon 5 though, those battles were French Kiss moments.

[@ToIsleOfView]

Yes, this was excellent. I like The Voyage Home a little better because of the humor. The suspense of new discovery is my favorite genre. The Expanse is outstanding for this. The greatest SCI-FI is Stargate. 10 years of amazing creativity with some humor as well.

[@DarkExcalibur42]

Yet another fantastic video

[@thegneech]

Good analysis here, thanks for making it!

[@joediehljoe]

Fantastic breakdown.

[@user-be2dt8eg2x]

Still like the battle with the Klingon cruiser in "Elaan of Troyius" best.

[@quantumsledgehammer1629]

Wait...Spock dies??? Great analysis of one of my all-time favorite movies. Whenever I hear James Horner's score of the first Khan/Kirk encounter battle, I can hear the dialogue from the film in my head. (Wow, what a dork I am!) Idea for a new Star Trek TWOK video: Where did the star that the Genesis planet orbits come from? (OK, there are a "few" plot holes in ST II, but it's a damn fun movie!)

[@mikeguilmette776]

As a kid, I assumed the Genesis Device also created the star . . .

[@springbloom5940]

It was condensed from the nebula. The Genesis planet is Regula.

[@crystallineentity]

This is an underrated channel. I really like your stuff man

[@samuelhendrickson7396]

I'm probably the only one that actually likes the nemesis battle. The nemesis battle to me was very complex, especially when the romulans showed up. It gave a very complex battle and strategy that could've destroyed the main characters and the enemy at the same time. Hopefully In the future, Star trek makes battles more elaborate, like the battles of deep space nine.

[@yuleeyahoo]

A great retelling of Moby Dick. Khan is the obsessed Ahab, and Kirk is the great white whale.😀

[@ScienceTalkwithJimMassa]

Surely, you mean Scotty is the great whale!! lol!!

[@skyborne80]

I can't imagine the rage Khan must have felt in that split second when the Enterprise warps away. Unfortunately, he didn't have the time to contemplate his folly, KABOOM!!!

[@twilightghost46]

I think the Enterprise-D hiding in a nebula from the Borg, then the Borg using depth charges in BoBW really dialed up the tension, esp. with the score of the episode. Starfleet/Marquis tactics use well the nebula (foggy weather) trope.

[@davidraper5798]

It is a great film, with some marvellous moments.

[@John-t7z3r]

As a fan of 18-19th century seafaring and WW2 submarine battles in print and on screen, seeing ST:WoK for the first time, I was immediately struck by the similarities. By far the best space battle in cinematic history.

[@desert4wheeling209]

The most underrated trilogy of all time is Star Trek 2 through Star Trek 4

[@deamondeathstone1]

Deep Space Nine, I remember whooping when I saw the Defiant move during a battle, instead of the typical slug match .

[@Quasimodo-mq8tw]

On nitpick: The Starship combat of TOS was not based on slow moving actions of Captial Ships but mostly Fighter Jets combat. The more deliberate pace and the slugging it out, came in with Wrath of Khan. The slowest combat was Balance of Terror which is inspired by Destroyer vs Submarine. The most modern Equvivalent to TOS would be....the Expanse actually...harsh manovers, waiting and hoping because one good hit will end it.

[@3Rayfire]

I don't know about fighter combat. TOS is actually the most...I don't want to say realistic, but cognizant of just what the technology would be like in a fight. Two ships moving at substantial fractions of the speed of light, either .25c at impulse or actually using warp to maneuver at FTL, and then firing range at 1 light second which is WAY outside of normal visual range. They would be zipping around while maneuvering. The Balance of Terror of course had the element of defeating stealth so that likely slowed things down. Then there was the Doomsday Machine, which was more like a demon wall in an rpg.

[@TenNoZeorymer72]

Scotty: I can't change the laws of physics: Movie writers and CGI artists: Watch us do it!

[@Theoverthinker81]

This has and will stand the test of time.

[@gregbirger5810]

Without a doubt, Wrath of Khan had the best space battles in Star Trek, possibly in all sci-fi cinema, period. Classic Star Wars has the same sense of reality when they still used models instead of CGI. The ships feel "real", with weight and heft, unlike nonsense video-game looking modern CGI. Absolutely amazing work, and the Enterprise of this film is one of the most aesthetically beautiful space ships ever put on film.

[@TheSybermedic]

The Wrath of Khan is the ultimate Star Trek space battle blending action and intelligence. The only other battle to come even close is also mentioned in this video the battle between the Enterprise and the Bird of Prey in Balance of Terror was "TOS" equivalent of the battle in The Wrath of Khan.

[@smgdfcmfah]

I'll never understand by TNG ignored this style of space battle that gave the ships a true sense of scale and just turned all their massive starships into craft that moved like fighter planes streaking around inside an atmosphere. The insane acceleration during sub-light speed maneuvers, banking, rolling, turning - it all looked SO bad by comparison. Star wars tie fighters couldn't out maneuver a TNG star cruiser!

[@blockmasterscott]

The thing I always remembered about Wrath of Kahn was the cast refusing to do a follow up after The Motion Picture unless they had different uniforms. They hated them that much lol.

[@bairdswestciv9542]

Best Star Trek Movie, hands down

[@chrisloesch1870]

Gene Roddenberry almost destroyed the Star Trek genre after being the genesis (no pun intended) of it's creation in the original series. He was stuck in the 1960's era and wanted all subsequent movies and series to be pajama uniform operas with no war, no conflict, everything perfected. He almost sank the Next Gen Series in it's first season until CBS had enough and fired him from all creative decisions and literally locked him out of the studios. Roddenberry would go in late at night and dramatically alter scripts, story boards, etc. without notifying any of the writers. This created chaos on the sets and was so disruptive Paramount and CBS eventually sued him and hired additional security to stop his interference. Yes, he should be given enormous credit for creating the genre, but by the end he was way past his prime and became a huge hindrance in upcoming series. His ideas also never evolved and they became dated and dull. He was part of the reason Star Trek 1 was such a flop at the box office as that movie was actually supposed to be a reboot of the original series, but Paramount changed it's mind and made it a movie. The story, props, uniforms, etc., were mostly Roddenberry's ideas. While many claim him to be a progressive he was actually a chauvinistic womanizer who became embroiled in numerous scandals including allegations of abuse directed at him by several characters in the original series and one or two in Next Generation Series. He always depicted women in skimpy outfits and subordinate roles exclusively (Berman was bad about this too).

[@blockmasterscott]

Agreed on everything that you said. He was seriously not a good man. I can’t blame the company kicking him off the set from STNG. Ugh, that first season was horrible.’

[@grovermoore4071]

I think janeway gave the borg more than a handful, especially when future janeway came to fight.

[@The_Fat_Controller.]

As many times as Kirk saw his _Enterprise_ in the original series taken over, you would _think_ he would have been beyond paranoid about even the slightest hint of odd behavior from any Starfleet vessel.

[@johnhallett5846]

he was complacent; but remember Checkov was the first officer of the Reliant; Kirk would know that. I think that played a part as well

[@warp103]

if it was not for a former officer that was under his command at one time he would have had the shield up sooner. That the issue with fleet on fleet battles. You may know some of the other side and that will slow your reaction. Think M5 were Commodore wesley could have blown the enterprise up. If he did not know KIRK she{ enterprise} would have been a dead duck

[@The_Fat_Controller.]

@@warp103 He should have had the shields up anyway the moment _Reliant_ was behaving atypically, no matter who he knew to be aboard that ship. Maybe all the times Kirk had lost control of the _Enterprise_ in the past was the reason Starfleet put that regulation in effect in the first place.

[@merafirewing6591]

​@@The_Fat_Controller. Or he was very rusty having not commanded the Enterprise for awhile, and having not left the desk throughout her refit.

[@springbloom5940]

He must be getting senile

[@BigDaddyJinx]

The battle sequence from Nemesis wasn't awful, but could've been way better than it was. They were going for a specific vibe, not at all unlike TWOK battle, but they couldn't stick the landing. Seeing the Enterprise ram the Scimitar was pretty cool though. An unexpected move. I also enjoyed the Star Trek VI battle at the end, though I felt it was too brief. The battles from TWOK are undefeated in cinema. Just glorious and well executed. A true benchmark.

[@shannonpotratz489]

The Wrath of Khan is a nearly flawless film, from beginning to end...

[@wcurtin1962]

The All Good Things battle was a true 3-D battle.

[@HM2SGT]

I always enjoyed star trek: the motionless pictures / star trek: the still... But I could also see and appreciate how not everyone (people who didn't grow up reading these Starfleet technical manual, Starfleet medical manual and Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise along with all the timeEscape & other novels) find it as engrossing and as admiring of the mellow and not tap dancing on your brain force-fed Sledgehammer subtle explosions for exposition people seem to classify as entertainment nowadays

[@anonygent]

Having been seriously disappointed in ST: The Motion Picture, I wasn't optimistic about ST:II, but I'm happy to say that it shattered all my expectations. Hard to believe the director wasn't a fan... he really captured the essence of the show and most of the characters in the movie.

[@TheLAGopher]

It's also ironic that producer Harve Bennet who was brought in to take over the Trek franchise after Roddenberry was effectively demoted after STTMP, was also not a fan,nor was he a "movie" guy since he was from the television side of the studio.

[@AllenJones-w3p]

KHAAAANNN!

[@maggiespeaks8555]

Gene Roddenberry put his excellent touches on this battle, but he admitted it was taken from the submarine movie run silent run deep

[@TheLAGopher]

Roddenberry was pretty much a non factor in making TWoK. It was Nicholas Meyer who came up with the naval battle approach to TWoK using "The Enemy Below" cat and mouse between two commanders in a similar manner to how Roddenberry used the same concept in Balance of Terror. Roddenberry and a vocal minority of Trek fans of that era were somewhat critical of what they saw as the "militarization" of the Star Trek property which they saw as a reactionary move by Paramount to what 20th Century FOX and Lucasfilm were doing with Star Wars.

[@blakew.2327]

I have gained a tremendous appreciation for the space battles in original Trek especially since the neon strobe light clown vomit we get today

[@Phintasmo]

Limits on what they could do forced them to be creative. Today they can put anything they can imagine on screen, but can’t seem to generate any good ideas.

[@rbailey1240]

@@Phintasmo "Just because you can do a thing doesn't mean you should."

[@3Rayfire]

@@rbailey1240 "History has taught us that just because you can do a thing, it does not necessarily follow that you *must,* do that thing." ~ Federation President Ra-ghoratreii, 2293 The challenge of restriction can be a great energizer of creativity, though I think there's been a great error in Trek production trying to match Star Wars instead of advancing Star Trek. This started in 2009 when JJ Abrams who admitted to not being a big Star Trek fan was given the film because the studio wanted Star Trek to be more like Star Wars.

[@53kenner]

And then space battles went the way of Star Wars ... sigh. As a guy who served in the Navy, I know that vessels in your own fleet are often out of sight, never mind the enemy. Heck, forget naval warfare, these people create space battles where the distance is vastly closer than we would see in air combat. Top Gun Maverick had it all wrong, wingmen might be a mile away and you never get within feet of an enemy. Fifty years ago, a Tomcat might fire at an enemy almost 100 miles away. Then we have the nonsense where spacecraft are rapidly maneuvering to make a shot...like it's the days of fricking sail. More than 160 years ago, the USS Monitor introduced a rotating turret that could attack in any direction necessary. Later battleships had more limited firing arcs due to the superstructure, but multiple turrets still gave 360-degree coverage. Today, vertical launch cells let us toss a missile straight upwards ... and it will steer in any needed direction. Presumably, starships could, at the very least, duplicate something that naval ships mastered in the 20th century. If spaceships are going to maneuver, it would be to take situational advantage, such as hiding behind a moon (The Enterprise hiding behind the moon while Khan futilely searches for him is a good case in point ... presumably the station's sensors were feeding data to Enterprise). Or, it could be to coordinate with a fleet or intercept an enemy. Maybe effecting gravitational slingshots, or other advantages, might be realized.

[@melina001a]

Kirk unfortunately had to learn hubris before he could defeat Khan

[@KNS1996DFS]

The only problem with this and Star Trek battles after it is that they don't consider the vastness of space. How often do you hear Harry Kim say that a ship is 3,000km away, only for that ship to appear in the same effects shot with Voyager? You can justify it in the Mutara Nebula because the ships were using visual targeting.

[@michaeldexter2544]

I loved how, in the Original Series, ships fought at ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers. Space battles in *Star Trek* should not be *Star Wars*-style dogfights! [At least ST:II provides a valid reason for the close-range fighting!] "Balance of Terror" still features the best ship-to-ship combat in any iteration of *Star Trek* , in my opinion.

[@rodcon75025]

How many times Kirk and Picard refuse to raise shields when something is obviously wrong is amazing.

[@crisgrant3745]

You are correct, ROK is the best IMO - by a good balance of both tactics and improved special effects - but not relying on ether - a double force multipler effect (for the ex military out there...

[@AutomationDnD]

Xelant Video

[@billping2633]

I would love a new showing at the movies. A modern screaming would be awesome.

[@Clonetrooper1139]

Interesting that when I think of Star Trek space battles I think of Wrath of Khan and Star Trek Into Darkness which was the modern Wrath of Khan.

[@anonygent]

I don't think I have seen The Wroth of Khan. 🤔

[@dreamcore]

the channel info page lists "Ireland" but the full story of his accent seems more complicated

[@GeoffreysTube]

I'd be interested to hear your take on Star Trek 6 seeing as how it was directed by the same Nicholas Mayer

[@GWFires]

If you can, see it on the big screen. That movie was made for cinema and it shows. Great cinema.

[@nicodermcq]

There are no better space battles than this. To this day.

[@khartog01]

My favorite trek movie

[@sessionfiddler]

It's funny how Trek fandom who grew up to be lore leadership loves bigger and bigger capital ships with fantasy technology that does things like make physical warp nacelle pylons obsolete and physics bending for maneuvering around battles like small fighters in their stories yet cite Wrath of Khan's battles as being the best. I wonder for entertainment and visual audio story telling on a holistic level, that the desire for flashy fancy standout is how we ended up with things like the loudness wars in recorded music yet look back and idolize works that aren't treated like that.

[@filmic_man]

I liked The Wrath of Khan, but Kirk letting his guard down as the Enterprise closed on Reliant felt contrived to me then, and it still does. The writer(s) ought to have found a different way.

[@grahamo22]

I noticed in a much later episode (in Picard I think) that in similar visually difficult circumstances, someone had the sense to send someone down to a lower deck at the front, and just look out of a window to see what was there, rather than sitting watching a crackling screen display.

[@sabrewolf4129]

There is a reason that Wrath of Kahn is the BEST of all Trek. Even DS9 lost track of this and had Wolf 359 and all other battles making these massive capital ships into fighter planes.

[@jinron24]

I couldn't agree more 😊

[@aztec0112]

It was successful because they employed recognizable tactics explained in simple terms that engaged the viewer in the battle. Far too often Star Trek engagements started with a pseudo-military word salad followed by some special effects and finishing with captains negotiating on view screens. Galactica had some good engagements early on that had a plausible military tension about them (the pilot, 33, the Pegasus, Scar, and the final battle) But sometimes these expansive, effects laden, furballs, while visually glorious, were confusing as hell. Two old men playing chess with real lives captures the tension quite nicely (ie Master and Commander)

[@Easy-Eight]

No space ship looks more damaged and mangled than*Reliant* 's slow turn to starboard with energy cascadeing from the blown off warp pod

[@todub781]

This is one of my favorite movies but when I first watched I was yelling why are you letting another ship get this close to yours! It's easy when you can see everything from your perspective. Kirk was the problem and the solution!

[@joaobranco2164]

Nowadays directors (and, maybe, the audience) seems to forget that the true beauty of a space battle is in the tactical and strategic thought, not explosions and risible physics... Although the physics of this battle are, somewhat, questionable, the tactical and thought process is remarkable.

[@Whalewraith]

Don't get me wrong, I love this movie and i get the cinematography was outstanding in this but.... I can never really get my head around giant warp capable ships going so slowly that they can manoeuvre around each other. I'm willing to suspend disbelief in dog fighting X-wings but the speed the Reliant and Enterprise close is what 10mph? It actually makes more sense in the show with the stock shots not having ships in the same frame and the action mainly on the viewer.

[@battlespace13]

6:27 Kirk can access Reliant's codes because he's a flag officer--Admiral.

[@3Rayfire]

No, while that would be a nice take, that's a security feature any Captain has access to. Picard did it twice in TNG.

[@winterbas8927]

I think Balance of Terror already perfected the Star Trek space battles.

[@erikbrantner4295]

Wrath of Khan In a very serious battle against Kirk's greatest enemy the enterprise took a couple of good hits during the first battle.. Aside from that his worst hit was when Spock died from the radiation chamber during this episode... But his 9 lives has managed to bring him back and in the end, Kirk lost NOTHING from Kahn's wrath and regained everything including the enterprise 👍👍

[@larrybremer4930]

Star Wars did small fighter ship combat well but cap ship combat was basically non existent while Star Trek (movies) did cap ship combat and never really got into small fighters other than a sort of cameo in Nemesis. They really should do a new Star Trek that puts a small air wing of fighters that carry a photon torpedo (and needs to rearm after its shot) to give them some new roles for a lead in the air wing, and some extra options to overcome the plot complication at hand.

[@jongrover8763]

The pointy haired bosses of science fiction.

[@drt1605]

Thanks. Your take on this reflects what Meyer and a lot of us fans watching it in the cinema appreciated! You have not "fallen into a hole" that some other KZbinrs have: the musical score. I am old enough and was using early Internet enough to remember the "Google early auto complete problem": algorithm gave VERY inappropriate autocompletions but some of which were based in fact. At that time I was glad that a LOT of fellow musicians had spotted something that caused the search term "James Horner" to have Google autocomplete "plagiarism". Don't get me wrong. The score for TWOK was brilliant. Trouble was Horner reused it again and again and again.... and even the main classical radio station in UK (BBC3) made an unsubtle comparison to WHOLE PHRASES composed by people like Prokofiev and Vaughan-Williams. I came to despise him when he spoiled the film Avatar for me and a fellow music fan. He used a theme from TWOK that acted as a major spoiler as to what was about to happen. Since we were at best lukewarm to the movie already this just made us take the piss out of the rest of it.

[@Sgt_Glory]

Reminds me of Hans Zimmer essentially re-using the score for Gladiator (the opening battle) in Pirates of the Caribbean. At least in those cases he arguably composed the original as well 😂

[@3Rayfire]

What film did he reuse the escape from the Atmosphere processor score from Aliens in? I was gonna bring it up as an example and it just went out of my head.

[@Phintasmo]

I absolutely love Horner’s score - its a really essential ingredient in making the movie a classic. It was only later that I heard he was accused of ‘borrowing’ from other tracks (and rehashing his own stuff endlessly)

[@hotdog1214]

@@Phintasmo Agreed, I hadn't heard the accusation until recently and I don't think it has a bearing on TWOK, it can be considered its own thing which contributes so so much to the film.