How Time Travel nearly broke Babylon 5

[@DanielWright-np3fq]

After his death, JMS was authorized by Michael O'Hare to let us know that he suffered from deep mental illness and JMS covered for him, writing him out and never letting anyone know why, but always, always praising Michael and his work. JMS not only wrote masterfully, but was a good friend. I hope wherever Michael O'Hare is in the afterlife, that he is at peace.

[@dungeonsanddobbers2683]

I mean, Michael O'Hare's mental health problems were kind of an open secret. Nobody was surprised when JMS "revealed" them after O'Hare's death

[@Parallax-3D]

JMS swore he would take Michael O’Hare’s secret about his mental illness to his own death. Michael O’Hare told him, “no, you can keep the secret until MY death”, hoping that JMS ultimately revealing O’Hare’s illness would help others suffering from mental illness.

[@Ojref1]

Imagine having schizophrenia and having other actors tell you "there's a hole in your mind"

[@richardwallis9374]

Very noble to protect himself but when no longer needing protection wanting to still help others

[@curiouspenguin6887]

I enjoyed his acting in this part and was disappointed when he was replaced. I thought it was one of those decisions to go with a bigger name actor. Very sorry to hear illness was the reason. 😢

[@theColJessep]

These days, many writers and directors can not even tell a consistent story within a single episode, let alone planning and adjusting major plotlines across 5 seasons. Babylon 5 is one of my favorite shows to this day.

[@davfree9732]

Cough_Secrethideout_Cough

[@kwisatz_haderach1445]

It is one of my all time favorites too. Ir was the first series I bought on DVD back in the day. It is just one item I that I found amusing. Please any time travel is going to hurt your head if you think about it too much. All the Dr. Who and Star Trek shows alll have logical oddities - that what makes them fun 😁

[@odysseusrex5908]

The best science fiction TV series ever. Even better than Star Trek.

[@kwisatz_haderach1445]

@@odysseusrex5908 I totally agree. It doesn't get the praise it deserves. On a side note; I am glad the re-boot failed to come to fruition. It was that very special cast that really made the show. You could never replace them - you can only catch lightning in a bottle once.

[@RogerValor]

because multiple writers are not good at arriving at a single vision, it is really hard to co-write anything, and all you get with bigger groups is planned-by-committee products. this is also true in other areas, not just writing.

[@ladwigs]

Babylon 5 is one of the most brilliant written shows in history

[@mielivalta]

It most certainly is! That said, time travel is my only major issue with B5. There are always paradoxes involved with time travel, no matter how well written. It cannot be avoided. Also it always best the question "why did not they use time travel here but used it here" what ifs. Imo, the only way time travel plots works are if you turn your brain off or its a comedy/parody. ps. G'Kar is one of my all time favorite characters and the interactions with Londo are one of the best parts of this series.

[@dismafuggerhere2753]

I can remember finishing part 2 with my chin on the floor feeling like I needed to talk to someone about what I'd just seen but not knowing who watched at the time.

[@CaptainEshara]

considering Michael O'Hare's illness, the way they did it and the farewell to Sinclair at the time was really well done with only a few continuity changes that could be explained with time travel timelines anyway

[@davidtaylor8439]

Yes, the way the cast and crew came together to help out was amazing and something you dont hear of very often. And the fact they brought him back and did an amazing wrap up and send off was perfect imo. Now if only crusade could have been as awesome!

[@DarrenEden-ub4vj]

Most shows would have simply killed him off. it was good they let him leave when he asked them. But it was great they brought him back and gave him a proper send off. I was waiting for his spirit to turn up in one of those stones with all the other great leaders collected by the soul collectors.

[@Grizabeebles]

​@@DarrenEden-ub4vj-- There's a line in that episode about how Valen refused to be collected and how a fleet of Mimbari ships fought to keep the Collectors at bay. It makes sense - if Sinclair's soul had stuck around, he'd have foreknowledge of the Earth-Mimbari war and it would have worked out very differently or been prevented altogether. Which would have changed Sinclair's personality and tactics on a deep level and changed how he fought the first Shadow war. And that potentially would have set off a spiral of changes ad infinitum.

[@JaredJanhsen]

@@davidtaylor8439 The cast & crew knew nothing of the extent Michael O'Hare's illness. The only person that knew was JMS. O'Hare hung in as long as he could for the sake of his co-stars and crew. It wasn't until O'Hare's death that the truth of his departure after Season 1 was brought to light.

[@senoviorodriguez2380]

@@Grizabeeblesduhkat?

[@Lesandira]

I still remember watching War Without End, Pt. 1 & 2 when they originally aired and having my mind completely blown. I had never seen anything like it on TV before. Babylon 5 was really ahead of its time. Truly a masterpiece of a show!

[@nomanomen4611]

Ja absolut war

[@milton1448]

Fully agreed

[@calvinjohnstone2664]

I recorded it on vhs, pepperidge farm remembers.

[@gdwnet]

I was about half way through the episode when the penny dropped and a few scenes later they confirmed that Sinclair was Valen. Mind blown and what a fantastic send off for Sinclair. One of the most amazing and satisfying pieces of television I have ever seen.

[@philiprice7875]

@@gdwnet when the reveal came i was like WTF and picked my jaw off the floor, and when in the beginning came out and we saw Sinclear being tortured and Delenn says he has the soul of Valeren himself it made sense still cant believe that they pulled it off oh and please. this was perfect DO NOT TRY FOR A RE-BOOT/REIMAGING

[@MervynPartin]

Knowing of Michael O'Hare's serious and tragic health problems, I don't think that the storyline could have been handled any better. JMS was a genius and compassionate. Best Sci-Fi series ever, despite the misguided interference from the networks.

[@davidhollingdale5408]

Greetings from England. I agree wholeheartedly.As a child of the 60s,I have seen a LOT of SF; and back in the 90s,when zB5 season 1 was being shown here for the first time was heavily involved with my own amateur stage career,and was rehearsing on the night it was shown; the Channel which had the rights hadn't existed very long, and the schedule was tucked away ,and merely listed as "SF adventure". I wondered vaguely what it was about, and thought no more of it. What I didn't know was that my family had begun watching. When the production finished, and I was free on the night in question,they all encouraged me to join them...I did I was fortunate in my 1st ever episode. It was "Signs and Portents," I was astounded by the quality of the script,and never missed an episode after that first time. Now,almost 30 years on,I still regard it as the greatest SF series of all time.👍🎯 I

[@Muck006]

@@davidhollingdale5408 Unlike most other TV series ... there are always loose ends and leads "for the future" left lying OPENLY ON THE TABLE (as JMS put it), which was useless, because nobody would ever figure out how they came together in the end. That is why this is the greatest TV show ever ... even if they made LOADS of mistakes on the PHYSICS and LOGIC side of things. [B4 has two counter-rotating sections, B5 doesnt ... but it would need to have that to prevent the stationary solar sail part of it from beginning to rotate ... and the same applies to the Earth Force Destroyers.]

[@jdgindustries2734]

​@@Muck006thrusters?

[@cernstormrunner7263]

"Jeff its ok! I finally understand! This is the moment i was born for!" Always gives me chills

[@Muck006]

It is quite stupid though, because nobody needs to invade B5 ... unless it gets conquered. Slicing the station up would be an act of 10 seconds.

[@InfernosReaper]

@@Muck006 Which is why they added the Shadows actually having some kind of purpose/goals beyond just destruction for destruction sake

[@ematuskey]

The retcon is so flawless it's hard to believe it wasn't the plan all along. I do remember ages and ages ago, when I learned that Sinclair's departure was unexpected, how they made it all work anyway--the answer, of course, was JMS and the other writers being damn good at their jobs.

[@dieseljester]

"You leave, Zathras Die. You Take, Zathras Die. Either way, is bad for Zathras..."

[@AcheLone]

at least there is symmetry

[@bigd6398]

well "sad life like, probably have sad death, at least there is symmetry". Zathrus was a favorite, even if there still are 9 now.

[@linawalter5104]

There were 12 Zathrases in all xx

[@HouseTargaryen24601]

I was so happy to see Sinclair back. Felt both the character, and the actor, deserved it.

[@bufanda]

And especially that we know nowadays why he left in the first place. And I love Sinclairs portrayal even more knowing that O'Hare battled with major mental health issues during shooting Season 1.

[@nothingbutchappy]

You can see him struggling at times... But he did really well.

[@Muck006]

@@nothingbutchappy He doesnt "struggle" ... he is "in his thoughts". He wrote a letter to himself ... detailing all the stuff that had to be done and there are lots of hard times ahead of Valen. Nobody would "sing a song and be happy" with such a prospect.

[@CarlosGomez-vt9pk]

@@nothingbutchappy I would like to see a compilation of ALL the scenes with O'Hare in the order of production. A testament to O'Hare and his fight to hold on "By Any Means Necessary".

[@knghtbrd]

I was sad to see Sinclair depart the station and O'Hare the show. I always thought the stories told about why he left were kinda fishy, but upon learning the truth of what happened … I get it. He didn't want people to think of him differently or treat him differently. I'm an albino, legally blind, and while I've been damned lucky with treatment, I have incurable stage four cancer. I couldn't see the stares and looks of revulsion and disgust or the mouthed words of warning or pity growing up, but I knew they were there. And with my diagnosis I heard some of them-sometimes from people close to me-who didn't know what else to say. I mean, I wouldn't go around advertising physical and mental disabilities on the Internet or anything since it can limit job opportunities and more, but the people who really matter in life won't care about these things. At least, not for long. They'll know you for you, and they'll forget about the disabilities often enough. The ones who won't … don't matter. Don't be afraid to be who you are. Me? Well, I'm a little too late to follow my own advice-who and what I am (and all that means, good and bad) isn't secret from anybody. But I'm also in the position to let my work speak for me.

[@michaelnash2138]

RIP to both Tim Choate as Zathras(an hilarious and well written character) and Michael O'Hare. Oh, and also about 3/4 of the Babylon 5 cast. So many tragic stories.

[@nsnopper]

I’m afraid you’re mistaken. Tim Choate did not play Zathras. He played Zathras.

[@michaelnash2138]

@@nsnopper Hmm. I thought it was Zathras, not Zathras.

[@icecold9511]

​@michaelnash2138 Listen to how I say it. Zathrus. You are seeing the difference?

[@michaelnash2138]

@icecold9511 Zathras...Zathras...I think I see it now. It's not Zathras. It's Zathras

[@tulinfirenze1990]

Thank you for typing "an hilarious". Americans have all but forgotten the word "an" these days.

[@brentbarr498]

JMS is a FREAKIN GENIUS!! The man created true art with B5!

[@reubenmckay]

Babylon 5 is my favourite TV show of all time.

[@_The_Captain]

Me too, glad to know I'm not alone . 😌

[@CarlosGomez-vt9pk]

I think JMS wrote this for O'Hare when he was The One: "All my life I've had doubts about who I am, where I belonged. Now I'm like the arrow that springs from the bow. No hesitation, no doubts. The path is clear." I feel like those words were the peace that he wanted to find in this life.

[@MrSnowdon0011]

That's a great thought !

[@happyninja42]

Man I remember watching the Valen reveal when it first aired, and just being completely dumbstruck. That scene of him building the device to begin the change, and the montage of clips that hinted at this event, and it was down to a single audible sound that for some reason just kind of struck me so deeply. As he glances to the side, and you hear the echoing voices of the flashbacks fade out, there is just this one, clear, vibrant high note, like the ringing of a tuning fork that just carries out into the distance, as Sinclair just glances over, embracing his final moments as a human. It just felt like the equivalent of some sculpture, or an elaborate cake designer, putting that final, perfect flourish on a project, and seeing it done. And having it work so well. It was great. LOVED that scene so much. To your comment about the whole "Watch your back Michael" feeling a bit clumsy, I don't really agree. I remember watching it when it aired, and pretty much instantly thinking 'Oh, yeah, if Michael hadn't been shot, he could've stopped the assassination, which would prevent Clark from taking power, and allowing (or at least delaying), the infiltration of the Psi Corp and the Shadows into the human power structure. It would've removed much of the instigation that the humans allowed, by silently allowing the Centauri to do whatever they wanted (and thus the Shadows), etc. Not saying it would've prevented the war entirely, but it could've pushed things out several more years perhaps. I think it was a good attempt, given when in the timeline that warning would've gone out.

[@quicksilvertongue3248]

Now you make me want a side story where it's revealed that Santiago knew in his final moments that he needed to die in order for humanity to survive. Maybe some telepath who found out about the shadow Psi Corp infiltration gets contacted by The Great Machine from the future and told to give the man this message a few minutes before he dies. That way at least his final moments are comforted to some extent.

[@slowturtle6745]

One of B5's greatest and most far reaching (both forward and back) storylines. I just wish modern TV was half as good.

[@prophetzarquon1922]

It was broadcast over the air for free with fewer ads than most _half_ hours of cable today. Kinda goes hard against the idea that subscription services provide better quality.

[@SemiStableM]

What a storyline and retcon! Glad to see O'Hare get his epic send off, especially considering all the hardship he was going through!

[@emsleywyatt3400]

"The Shadows are two-dimensional villains." I see what you did there.

[@Private-v1l]

This was the greatest show ever produced.

[@sharkdentures3247]

I absolutely LOVED that they did War without End. I have a PERSONAL hatred of the trend of; building up a character as "super important" (pr CRUICAL), only for them to be "swapped out" for someone else, like it is no big deal! It biased me against Sheridan initially, and if Boxlightner hadn't done such a good job, I probably would have HATED him! War without End & the book To Dream in the city of Sorrows, REALLY made me feel better about Sinclair leaving. (And of course, now knowing the REAL reason WHY he HAD to leave.) And it WOULD have left a MASSIVE sour taste in my mouth if they hadn't done it. While not perfect, WWE's flaws aren't terribly numerous. Also, they are small, forgivable and easy enough to ignore.

[@jamessymmons8218]

To Dream in the City of Shadows was the best of the early Random House B5 novels, and the only one to be considered true canon. Perhaps due to the author!! 😅😅

[@neoblakkrstal9865]

B5 is one of the greatest, AND most under-rated shows in the history of TV. One of my favorites, discovered accidentally on a fledgling local station one late night, mostly out of sheer boredom, and a love of all things SciFi. It has gone on to become a part of my childhood, earning a place in my heart alongside Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, and Firefly.

[@happyninja42]

There is a short run comic called "In Valen's Name" that is the final capstone on the story of Sinclair/Valen, that I think is fantastic. The story takes place with the crew of B5 finding B4...again. But not from time travel, just...the 1000 year old husk of the base after it had been abandoned after the War. There is a present day problem they are dealing with....I think it was that the station was in a decaying orbit that would crash it into an inhabited planet or something? I forget, but while they are dealing with the present day issue going on, Delenn finds some old logs in the station's computer system, and starts playing them. They are a collection of personal logs from Mimbari who served during the War, under Valen, and each entry begins with a similar line of "I am X, and I served Valen like no other", and then they give you a little slice of life story about how Valen, and Zathras contributed to the war effort, and solidified the Mimbari society into what we know it to be. It's really good, because the last entry is from Valen himself, and IIRC, he actually directs the message to Delenn directly. It's a bittersweet, but ultimately happy ending to the tale of Sinclair, that I absolutely loved. Any fan of the character should give it a look, I think it's worth it.

[@Phintasmo]

Great recommendation! I have to check that out.

[@charleslurio8881]

Babylon 5 was so magnificent, It broke such new ground for series television. I was totally obsessed with it and somehow found a way to see each episode in order even though the local station kept rescheduling it because they were owned by Paramount, which had begun Voyager. We even had local fans gather to watch a tape that had been converted to US format from the UK format. I I liked Sinclair a lot and I can only have the deepest empathy for Michael O’Hare. I met him briefly at a convention and we talked about trivia or should I say I talked about trivia not knowing what horrible struggle he was engaged in. JMS should be blessed for what he did for O’Hare which was Incredibly generous going well beyond keeping the confidentiality. Perhaps that is partly because JMS had such a horrible time himself as he was growing up, which he wrote about a few years ago. I have had some problems myself and while it was nothing like what O’Hare had. It has been difficult enough. And one of these days, I hope I’ll have a chance to apologize to JMS for a side effect of it. Finally, yes, I am coming to a close, it is so sad that we have lost so many of the actors on the show. Most of them passed from this world far too early and I think in particular Mira Furlan she came from Croatia originally And got some odd illness while walking through the Hollywood hills from an insect and it killed her that’s the story I remember. Anyway, may all their memories be blessings to all of us who cherished what they were able to do.

[@prophetzarquon1922]

Yeah, West Nile disease. Inflammation kills.

[@mitchellschoenbrun]

True story, Babylon Squared was accidentally the first episode I saw. From then on I was hooked and had to go back to the begining. It's quite amazing hearing about the orginal plot intentions. If was just written the way it turned out in the end it would have been genius. Hearing the way it had to be reconstructed is genius squared. I don't recall ever having to squint.

[@nickmeara5323]

At one point the the Station is to be decommissioned and the maintenance tech that turned the main switch to power it down was the bearded & burley JMS. He was also in the first Thor movie for marvel hanging with Stan Lee.

[@prophetzarquon1922]

I do love a cameo.

[@Kyred808]

Valen is actually mentioned in the pilot episode. When Kosh arrives on B5, he greets Sinclair as Valen in Minbari. We as viewers just hear it as jibberish because we haven't heard the Minbari greeting yet or know that Valen is a name. But it's firm proof that Sinclair was planned to go back in time and become Valen ever since the pilot

[@Phintasmo]

The Valen line was added in the special edition of the Gathering that they made ahead of season 5. It wasnt in the original version.

[@MagiTycho]

The pilot is very shaky IMO...lots of things retconned during the show proper. But yea that line was added to the special edition for continuity...and we of course know Kosh doesnt have hands, and wouldnt have reached out of his suit to greet anyone. Plus, as telepathic and powerful as the vorlons are, I doubt even a high tech cyber disguise would have fooled Kosh, he would have known that wasnt sinclair.

[@SC-LXVII]

@@MagiTycho The 'hand' poisoning is a remnant from early drafts of The Gathering, when Kosh was still a physical alien (with a wife to boot). We don't really know when JMS decided Kosh was an energy being, nor when he decided on him being an angel.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

I liked the pilot. I always thought that the Vorlons are mysterious to hide how weak and vulnerable they are. Of course all that changed when the Fire Nation attacked - I mean when G'Kar became Jesus.

[@nicoj84]

​@PK-gd6by I often think that Kosh simply played dead and the Minbari assassin got a telepathic projection of a hand that wasn't there. All this ties in to Kosh knowing some of the future, through Sinclair. Whether the Vorlon fleet was also pretending to destroy B5 or whether only Kosh knew the proceeding events, hasn't been processed by my head cannon 😂

[@bufanda]

You should have mentioned why O'Hare left, it's a major reason why JMS had to rework the storyline for Sheridan. And the send off is well deserved and I am glad they were able to handle it in such a great way.

[@fusionspace175]

Yeah I left the video to look up why, quite an omission.

[@ScottRutter]

agreed - the phrase "hung around longer" really struck me wrong

[@BenRagunton]

Excellent analysis. Thank you for reminding us what JMS's original treatment for B5 was supposed to be. I was disheartened when O'Hare left, but I was amazed at how JMS successfully retcon Babylon Squared and the Shadow War. As JMS revealed later, O'Hare was suffering from mental illness and voluntarily left the show. That act alone, putting the show above his own career and role as Sinclair, proves that both O'Hare and Sinclair deserved their swan songs. It was a magnificent sendoff for both of them, and Babylon 5 remains one of my favorite science fiction series of all time.

[@NickMichalak]

War Without End was always the story I was kind of obsessed with. It’s such a grand two parter bridging gaps in the saga and introducing very big ideas. In a season so focused on the Earth government conflicts, it brought the mythology back to prominence. Yeah, there are some continuity hiccups here and there, especially with how the B4 Commander says Zatharus is as found and captured. It’s forgivable because it’s not crucial to the characters or plot. JMS did an admirable job touching up the alterations and making the major points land properly. I also like how The Road Home incorporated the siege of B5 into its multiverse hopping story. It was a nice nod to a possible future that never came to be in the prime timeline.

[@WillHerrmann]

Apparently there was an attempt to shoot a scene where Zathras first appears out of nowhere in a conference room, as described in Babylon Squared, but it just wasn't working, so they instead filmed a much simpler scene of catching him messing around in the cargo bay.

[@cpuuk]

They did an amazing job considering Mr O'Hare's condition.

[@RN1441]

It was clever of JMS to have the trapdoors built in for so many of the characters, though I'm very curious to see what Babylon 5 we might have had if things had played out differently: 1) The big one: What if the studio had not rushed JMS to finish the story in season 4 only to then half way through tell him 'you're getting a fifth season'. Season 4 was a banger but it short circuited many potentially excellent stories while also robbing season 5 of content. This meant that we ended up getting characters like Bester in season 4 monologueing to explain things we weren't going to get to see play out, while in season 5 we ended up with rehashes and substitutions. The mad emperor became the mad regent, the shadows became the drakh, and on it goes. They were making the best of the situation, but I want to see what could have been if JMS hadn't been jerked around on the scheduling. 2) A slightly smaller one: What if there hadn't been personnel conflicts with their telepaths. I liked Lita throughout, and I liked Talia while she was there, and the storyline handling the templated personality was obviously being set up via the episode with the Vicar but then it just got capped off in one episode because the actress and the production weren't getting along. 3) What if there hadn't been personnel conflicts with Ivanova. We spent four seasons getting to know her only for her to be written out in the epilogue of an episode. Her replacement played by Scoggins was good enough except for the part where they forced such a strong connection to Sheridan's past out of nowhere. Bonus round: What if Crusade hadn't been so thoroughly sabotaged by circumstances? (The company that did the costumes was gone or unavailable, the VFX studio went under or lost all their files, and the list goes on but wow was that show cursed.)

[@evertonporter7887]

Crusade needs a soft reboot.

[@RN1441]

@@evertonporter7887 I'm normally not a fan of hard reboots, but Crusade was cursed enough that it could do with one. I'd like it to be done respectfully by having the available actors back to cameo as they did what they could with the material, it was just set up to fail on a few levels.

[@cherokee43v6]

The issues with Claudia Christian (Ivanova) came about because of the network jerking around the cast about renewal. They held off so long on the decision, that she had already signed for a job that conflicted with the season 5 shooting schedule. It wasn't an interpersonal issue like your comment sounds, but the fault of the PTBs.

[@RN1441]

@@cherokee43v6 Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't sure of the reasons I'm just sad it happened. Your description reminds me of the season 4(?) blooper real explaining why one of the rebellion's admirals disappeared in an off screen death: 'His agent booked him on another space station show'

[@cherokee43v6]

@@RN1441 Yep... the actor playing General Lefcourt got hired to play an Admiral on a Star Trek series (I think Voyager), but because of the bad blood over DS-9s perceived theft of the B-5 concept (there was a story pitch to Paramount by the B-5 team when they were shopping the idea around that the Paramount execs passed on), JMS opted not to have that actor back and arranged for the character to die off-screen.

[@nsnopper]

I really enjoyed the Jeffrey Sinclair character, and at the time I was greatly disappointed when he was replaced by John Sheridan. Of course, it would be years later when JMS was finally able to reveal the reasons for the switch. (Anyone remember The Great War of Rastb5, the Flame War in the Bab5 Usenet discussion group where three trolls accused JMS of a conspiratorial cover-up over Michael O’Hare’s departure?) But overall, it was a great series, the trapdoors worked, and I applaud all those who worked hard to bring us a truly entertaining experience.

[@JAnx01]

0:35 - I know this is about Babylon 5, but I forgot how beautiful Vash was in TNG and this scene has reminded me.

[@Phintasmo]

She was gorgeous while also feeling age appropriate for Picard.

[@wildcelt3459]

I always preferred Commander Sinclair to Sheridan. But considering the bts reasons for the switch, it was a great episode and fantastic show that still holds up today.

[@djolds1]

The reframing of "The One" in "War Without End" was masterful. The other arc beat that was set up and unable to be paid off was the Talia Winters-Susan Ivanova love affair. Mid-'90s, a lesbian relationship would have had impact. Ivanova was obviously being set up to be the telepath war leader with Talia as the Uber-Teep in the Telepath War against Psi Corps that would have been part of an extended Clark War. Marital issues intervened.

[@noscwoh1]

I'm certainly glad that didn't happen. Would have killed B5, viewers would have left in droves. Go woke go broke.

[@rmsgrey]

@@noscwoh1 History disagrees. They firmly established the romance, and its consummation, before Talia left the show, with no visible impact on ratings. And when they did the heteronormative version with Lyta/Byron, viewers did leave in droves.

[@marcodavinci3150]

Amazing video! As an original B5 fan you even taught me a few things! That final scene with the three is my favorite moment of the whole show and gets my everytime! It felt so organic and made you feel how epic this saga was and gave importance to these three characters who directly guided fhe story along. It's also a touching goodbye to Michael O'Hare 😢

[@Baulderstone1]

Great video. I appreciate this episode simply for how skillfully JMS managed to revise his story in a way that made sense, but more than that, I agree that it was good to see Sinclair get a well-deserved send-off. Knowing the problems Michael O'Hare was dealing with in real life only adds more impact to it.

[@keller1334]

Only sci fi episode and show that I ever really liked. Gave me chills. Babylon 5 was one of the best shows ever. To this day it is one of my favorites and I grew up watching this show. My first credit card as a young adult I pretended it was a credit chit.

[@MacsLore]

When I was getting into Babylon 5 a few years ago, I had stumbled upon the story of why Michael O'Hare left the show. As I was reading it over I found I was...I dunno, moved? by the story as told by JMS. Here was a guy who was fighting some pretty strong demons in his mind and he still cared enough about those around him to say "No. No one's losing their job over me, I can do this.". And for a year of TV Series Production that was what he did until he couldn't do it anymore. That in itself speaks volumes about the man's character.

[@knotpaulls1347]

War without end 1&2 , my favourite episodes of the whole series .

[@_The_Captain]

All my life I've had doubts about who I am, where I belonged. Now I'm like the arrow that springs from the bow. No hesitation, no doubts. The path is clear

[@bobthegenestealer1313]

By chance the mighty algorithm brought me to your video. I'd been wondering about the "moment I was born for" scene for years and never found any real explanation. That itch has finally been scratched. Cheers!

[@rmriddler]

Fun Fact: In the pilot episode Leta sees the attack from Koshs point of view, just before he is attacked he sees Sinclair and says "Entil'Zha Valen". not like others in the show who say "Entil'Zha in Valens name". Later we learn Entil'Zha means "The Future". So Kosh called him "The Future Valen" then he was attached. A crumb at the very beginning also paying off. You could also say that Kosh slipped up and almost changed the future which is why Kosh stays away from him the rest of his time there. Imagine knowing the Future but only some of it afraid of accidently changing with just a word. That's why Vorlons talk the way they do, if you know what will happen you understand, if you don't its cryptic. I LOVE THIS SHOW.

[@ChairmanMo]

The retconning of the, "watch your back Michael!", does really work because Sinclair and Garibaldi are super close friends.

[@michaelriddick7116]

God bless Michael O'Hare ❤😭😭

[@michaelriddick7116]

Zathras FTW! 😁🤣😂

[@peppermintspacecapsule9898]

Don't forget *The Coming of Shadows* from Year 2. We get a cameo from Sinclair in which we see the beginning of his transformation. His change is not yet a physical one, it's a change to his personality as he starts becoming the man he'll eventually be. I *love* the Sinclair B4 story.

[@Frank-bc8gg]

I remember first watching babylon 5 entirely blind a couple years ago and being annoyed at the seemingly out of the blue change and then growing to like Sinclair and being blown away by how it all tied back together. Finding out it was kind of an unforseen event blows my mind even more!

[@IFSAWidowmaker]

For some real perspective on this series in the time it was aired. I am 53 and remember when this all aired in the 90's. It was new, the effects were amazing and the story was was like nothing at the time. It captivated me completly. so much so. i have all the seasons and watch them on a regular basis. In my opinion it remains unmatched in story telling and world bulilding to this day. JMS is a legend.

[@macsnafu]

I loved Michael O'Hare as Commander Sinclair. No know against Bruce's Commander Sheridan, but Sinclair was just more interesting. And I loved the whole Babylon 4 storyline. And I'm really glad the internet is remembering Babylon 5, such a good show!

[@firstchevalier]

Really nice summary. I didn't know a bunch of stuff there. Great info. Thanks.

[@pirate4460]

Was it Zathras, or Zathras whom helped steal Babylon 4? I always forget.

[@yodaslovetoy]

It was zathras

[@matthewbrown7048]

​@@yodaslovetoyNo you're saying it wrong its pronounced Zathras.

[@russoz]

Zathras. Definitely Zathras.

[@rmwright70]

It was not ZaTHras, he was in the kitchen always cooking, creative chef that one was.

[@tsbscotland]

You're all wrong. It most definitely Zathras.

[@DarkExcalibur42]

That was a good one! Lots of bits of story I hadn't known about!

[@quantumsledgehammer1629]

I really liked the way the main story arc ended up unfolding, and I remember when watching the show when it originally aired, it all felt like that was the plan all along. I'm not "glad" Michael O'Hare had to leave the show, but after repeated viewings of the first season I began to see how wooden O'Hare's acting was at times...there are scenes Sinclair is in where you could swear you're watching a stage play...he hits his mark, turns, delivers his lines very professionally, just as written, but it comes across as robotic instead of natural. Boxleitner, on the other hand, did seem so natural in the role of Sheridan, and you said it exactly--he was charismatic...because Boxleitner is charismatic. The Sinclair character never felt like someone you were willing to go into battle with...but Sheridan...you felt you were willing to follow him to the gates of Hell. But I am so glad JMS was able to get O'Hare back one last time to resolve the B4 storyline. It just wouldn't have been the same if that storyline didn't get the attention it needed. And based on what you mentioned in the video, the way it occurred in the show seems SIGNIFICANTLY better than the original plan. And despite any slight reconning needed and "minor" inconsistencies, it still feels seamless within the story arc all these years later.

[@adelucas4824]

I had the same problem with the acting by O'Hare and thought that was why he was replaced. It was only after his death that I realised he was probably fighting his own degenerative brain illness at the time so it was a miracle he was as good as he was.

[@atlanta2076]

That Squared episode? I saw it when it first aired - and it blew me TF away! It proved, like you said, that there was indeed a built-up and a masterplan behind it all.

[@tuscan9617]

I never knew any of this, but my god did they do a good job with the retcon. When O'Hare didn't return for Seaon 2 I found his leaving abrupt and confusing, but ultimately I assumed that it was planned. Sheridan and the plot going forward continued so smoothly and everything involving Babylon 4 and the time travel was explained including why Sinclair left. Honestly this only makes me appreciate the plotline ever more. The fact that none of it was originally planned and done 'on the fly' so to speak is impressive as hell and a credit to JMS and the actors.

[@keponder47]

I saw most of Babylon 5 when it originally aired when I was a kid and then again on DVD from my library when I was in college. I missed a lot of these details both times. Excellent video.

[@WinstonMelbourne-vt2vt]

it was one of the best stories I ever saw. and it linked everything together so well love it

[@AndreasKalamas-rg5lj]

I see very often modern shows that make great first/second seasons and then fail so miserably to continue/end their story. That speaks volume of JMS' skills.

[@Nefylym]

Well presented and a wonderful trip down memory lane. JMS sure had it down how to write for TV and around celebrity personalities. So much talent on this show, so many wonderful years spent watching this together with my dad. Sad to learn most of the cast have died off over the years, including Michael O'Hare who suffered terribly from an illness, which is why he had to leave the show. This show defined scifi for me during the 90s. It taught me a lot about story telling and doing the most you can with even the least you got.

[@srbenson4566]

Wow. Fascinating information on the original plan for the B5 story line. I didn't realize how different the original story plan was. My respect for the B5 story arc just continues to grow. Excellent video.

[@freddiestinson1117]

Yes I really wasn't into Babylon 5 until by chance I watched this time travel episode when it aired. Before this I was much more into Star Trek but at the time the storys in Trek starting to be lacking in my opinion so I gave Babylon 5 another chance and after seeing this episode I was hooked.

[@calebbrown3658]

Could you imagine a prequel show to Babylon 5 taking place during the first shadow war.

[@ptonpc]

Considering O'Hare's illness, they did an excellent job. Another one gone beyond the Rim.

[@Akial2935]

2:18 you mispronounced Zathras, probably mixing him up with Zathras. Understandable given their similar roles in the story

[@Ratmus1]

I remember seeing J. Michael Straczynski talk about Babylon 5 and how he had a 5 year plan for the whole series. People would try to hack into his computer (unsuccessfully) to find out the secrets of the show. But he said he had a folder with all these details and no one bothered to check his desk drawers for this folder.

[@mr.d6465]

the Storyline of Catherine Sakai was also good solved of Screen. And as for me... I've received my own reward, because I've found her. At long last... I've found... her. Valen's last message from B4

[@DarkVeghetta]

I much prefer how the show ended up, as opposed to how it was initially conceived. Both are well-written, but what we ultimately got was a better, more memorable story that explored deeper themes than the original seems to have intended. That said, Sinclair was an amazing character played by a masterful actor and I missed him once he left. It felt amazing having him back for his last episode, a well deserved 'swan song'.

[@perezxiled94]

My jaw dropped at the realization that Sinclair was valen, and that humans and minbari were joined together over 1000 years ago, made me think about what else was possible, Sheridan being infused with the energy of the ancient one did that lead to human evolution in to energy vorlon like beings over millennia?

[@scottmaxim8045]

One of my favorite science fiction shows of all time! B5 is well written, the actors all do a great job with their respective roles, and it's fun to watch the early computer-generated special effects from a Mac outfitted with "Video Toaster!"

[@glennhenrywangensteen2140]

Loved all the little things that he put right in your face, but didn't make a connection for several seasons. The cause and effect. Nightwatch just kinda hung in the background and one day there trying to take over everything.

[@patdowney9454]

Babylon 5 is one of the best written shows of all time. It’s one of my most favourite shows and I think it’s time for another rewatch from the beginning 😉😊

[@rmhartman]

JMS had "escape hatch" plans for each of the main characters.

[@ToadstedCroaks]

Babylon 5 gets a lot of praise for it's writing, characters, and artistic design, but what seldom gets talked about is it's pioneering of CGI work and 3D modeling. You can see how stiff and rehashed it is at the start, even though at the time it still looked pretty good. And by the time it's at it's final season it's all done really well, especially considering all the giant space battles they went through. A normal show banks their CGI for short moments every now and then, so they tend to look better, but Babylon 5 used them pretty much every episode, throughout them, and they were good about transitioning from the CGI scenes to the live actors and back. It was a hell of an achievement, considering the shows low budget and high demand to make everything atmospheric, like you're not just looking at the bridge for 50% of the show.

[@trashcanman6649]

Something that I cannot forget about the intro of the second season is a guy in a spacesuit doing a "repair" of something by repeatedly moving his arms up and down xD. The team doing the CGI probably thought that no one would notice especially when watching on a CRT TV. I really like the models of the starfury ships but some of the CGI in this show has aged like milk. The episode in which Sheridan jumps out of suspension railway is a good example for what I mean.

[@bertoluccib6175]

THANK YOU so much for this, really enjoyed it! I still remember when the WWE episodes aired I wasglued to the screen going WHATTT, HE IS VALEN???

[@AbelMcTalisker]

I`m also impressed with how JMC resolved the Cathrine Sakai plotline in a novel while pointing out the significance of the Triluminaries as Mimbari religious artifacts/Vorlon technology and the reason there were three of them. For those who don't know, Cathrine was a minor recurring character in season one intended as Sinclair`s former and possible future romantic interest. How they intended to use the character originally is open to speculation but in the novel, Cathrine joins Sinclair after he becomes the leader of the Rangers, becomes one herself, and is then thrown into the past during a mission. It is strongly implied that she then reunites with Sinclair/Valen in the past, undergoes the same transformation that Sinclair and Delenn do and they then have Mimbari descendants who incorporate human DNA in their makeup. One of these descendants is Delenn.

[@Aaron-cy9vv]

To me, Commander Sinclair is the perfect example of an old school D&D lawful good paladin.

[@Sorain1]

Funny, that a trapdoor being used would be so vital to what this classic was.

[@barksdalehales438]

JMS had a trapdoor for everyone setup from the start. Per his own words.

[@radwolf76]

I'm always a little tickled by these three episodes because of that blue spacesuit. Famously, at the end of filming 2001: A Space Odyssey, Kubrick had all sets, props, and wardrobe destroyed, because he didn't want to see them popping up in any unrelated productions like Robby the Robot did after Forbidden Planet. So in the 80s when MGM wanted to make the sequel 2010, they rebuilt a lot of things from scratch. And because Stanley wasn't involved in the sequel at all, he wasn't able to tell them to junk everything again. So one of the multicolored space suits from Discovery-1, first seen in 2001, and then recreated for 2010, ended up in some Hollywood costume rental warehouse, until it was used in Babylon 5 for these episodes. (Something similar lead to one of Discovery-1's EVA Pods showing up in Watto's Junkyard in Star Wars Episode 1.)

[@gregquinn642]

Now we need a B5 element to cross back over to the Odyssey series to balance the scales... "Open the pod bay doors." "What, you got a broken arm or something? I got a spaceship to run here!"

[@randywise5241]

That was my favorite science fiction show.

[@antpearson9676]

This was one of the smartest pueces of Sci fi writing ever. And until the end of the shadow war , one of the best sci fi dhows ever. Ant p uk

[@ossirioth]

remember watching the first run of this show while I was at Uni with my friends, we'd never seen any show that linked storylines like this, it was a decade ahead of its time in that sense and created the mold which Lost, Breaking Bad, GoT etc are all made by today. We'd come to understand and love the series story arcs which they employed but the Valen reveal which spanned mulitple series had us jumping out of our seats in genuine shock and amazement, it was so completely out of nowhere and unprecedented at the time. Great days :D

[@fmlazar]

Given what Michael O'Hare's personal circumstances were... (the actor died shortly afterward) pulling this off as they did was nothing short of a miracle.

[@BCWasbrough]

Shortly after? He died in 2012. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_O'Hare

[@danblanks3190]

The real problem was that O'Hare was suffering from mental illness. JMS promised to keep it private as long as O'Hare lived, but O'Hare wanted JMS to reveal it if O'Hare passed away first.

[@fmlazar]

@@danblanks3190 Mental illness of a biological nature but not even psychoactives could fix, unfortunately. JMS had offered to pause production until O'Hare could recover but the actor knew that it would fatally delay the series.

[@mikem9246]

@@fmlazar O'Hare was a good person. He came back to do War Without End after he had gotten treatment, and did a few other gigs like an episode of Law and Order. But after he relapsed and cut off contact with friends and family. :(

[@willvgo2950]

9:40 The worst retcon is how Zathras was captured. Major Krantz told Commander Sinclair that Zathras appeared in the room during a meeting, but then Zathras was captured while roaming around the station.

[@carlosbowshier5979]

As a big fan of science fiction since always, Babylon 5 was the most intelligent series i have ever seen!

[@WilliamAGould]

The episode also wraps up future plot threads set at the end of the series. In many respects the plot points in the episode between Londo and G'kar in the future are just as important.

[@MagiTycho]

If you didnt know how unplanned it was and why Michael O'Hare left (and we didnt), it was very easy to just believe that nothing was last-minute changed in the story at all, that it was all written already to play out exactly as it did.

[@jamesabernethy7896]

This video just came up for me. I really love Babylon 5 and this has been a great video.

[@milton1448]

Best Si-Fi series ever. One of the best storylines I've ever seen on tv.

[@terratorment2940]

It is unfortunate that the actor who played Sinclair, Michael O'Hare, suffered as he did and thus had to leave the show but I am glad he was able to keep it together for the art to make these perfect episodes. He had some sort of schizophrenia. I feel bad for him.

[@DrDavidReilly]

Sinclair, as a character, was the most interesting, and I would love to have seen it play out as originally planned. I thought him so heroic, and wise, and growing up I wanted to be just like him. So it took me a long time to warm to his replacement- I still think Sinclair would have handled the war with greater wisdom. I just never knew (JMS concealed this, to his credit, until after his passing) the battle Michael O’hare was fighting. His voice carried moral weight, and his speeches were inspiring. I will never forget him

[@aleistercrowley7549]

There were so many "blown away" moments, from The Gathering, to Babylon Squared, to War Without End; and everything in between. Long-time Trek fans, B5 rapidly became the favored series of Mr. Crowley and Mrs. C. ST:TOS and ST:DS9 are our favorite ST series, especially after ST:DS9 revealed their overall story arc(s).

[@JohnLRice]

Nice review of one of my most favorite shows and episodes! 👍 I wonder though if Sinclair wasn't warning Garibaldi about getting shot in the back at the end of season 1 but maybe the warning was for what happens to him at the end of season 3 when the Shadow vessel comes from behind/above and grabs him in his Starfury? Maybe it was both?

[@joelvz6093]

I love this show. It's my favorite. This story arc is perfect. I rewatch the Zathras scenes over and over. I recommend the books to complete the story arc; To Dream in the City of Sorrows and the Legion of Fire trilogy. They are great and have much needed plot points.

[@joncarroll2040]

I think the twist that Sinclair always was supposed to be Valen since the whole concept of some humans having Minbari souls is the reason the Earth Minbari ended the war. The first question I want to ask JMS is what the original plan was. My personal theory is that Sinclair was originally supposed to be transported back in time by Lorien after he "dies" on Zahadum and Ivanova would have stepped up for the end of the show.

[@SC-LXVII]

We know the original plan (at least as it existed after the Gathering and before the series went into production) as JMS released his outline a few years ago. Sinclair would NOT have gone into the past, nor become Valen. After having failed to win the Shadow war, Sinclair goes off to live in disgrace. 20 Years in the future, while living in exile, with Delenn and their son David, he gets the idea to go back to steal B4, bringing it FORWARD to his time, where he uses it to finally win the war.

[@hroedlyon2954]

Your analysis is very well done. Hopefully some day there will be a Babylon 4 series.

[@Scottishstorm]

Fantastic video! Thanks for it.

[@lightspeedlagu]

Excellent analysis. Well done sir!

[@danpage6907]

As for continuing the show to its excellent conclusion: Faith Manages.

[@afromalone]

This was a great show. To anyone watching for the first time, don't judge it by the first season.