Is The Collapsing Relevance of a College Degree... A Good Thing?

[@HowMoneyWorks]

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[@henrythegreatamerican8136]

The whole college degree nonsense was a scandal since the 90's. It's turned into a way for the banker class to package up all those loans and sell them to investors as 'guaranteed income' because republicans made it impossible to escape the debt. At one point you could file bankruptcy on those loans. It's okay for companies and elites like Trump to endlessly file bankruptcy to avoid paying bills. Why did they make it impossible for college students to do the same? Yea, because they sold those loans off to investors for that guaranteed income. It's the same thing they did to housing that eventually caused the 2008 collapse. And don't even get me started on the need to put yourself in debt to get "skills" to go work for a company. Meanwhile, the company doesn't have to pay a dime for the education you acquired to work for them. Thank god Joe Biden eliminated a lot of student loan debt!!!!

[@gfy2979]

Mike Rowe and Dave Ramsey called and said they want their cheap talking points back

[@henrythegreatamerican8136]

How KZbin removes comments.... censorship at its finest.

[@eestudaj]

I am disappointed you don't mention the opportunity cost of college education. For example, I my first job after completing my master's degree paid about $55k and did not require a master's degree. So in effect, the degree cost me $55k PLUS the cost of tuition.

[@sirloin869]

Next "big thing": fight club meets hunger games,but college graduates...

[@markschiller5596]

Reminds me of a joke I heard. On my first day at my new job, my boss sat me down and said “I want you to forget everything you learned in college. None of that matters here because we want you to be a clean slate and learn the unique way that we operate at this company.” I responded “that’s not a problem for me. In fact, I didn’t even go to college.” The boss replied “well in that case, I’m sorry but you are not qualified for this job. Please pack up your things and leave immediately.”

[@robertagren9360]

You were already paid with peanuts and the attempt to fire you failed since they pretend to pay and we pretend to work.

[@ksajamx]

Wtf 🤣🤣

[@trumpster635]

I laughed literally out loud 😂

[@EricHixson-m9j]

So was it a joke or fr😂

[@mcsur9285]

Tf

[@sanninjiraiya]

There's this weird phenomenon about qualifications where if you become "too skilled" you actually decrease your competitive edge on the market. People's egos and desire to avoid paying out higher wages/salary or fear of having to compete to keep their employees ends up pushing some of the best trained/qualified/educated out.

[@kamakazy13]

The company I work at has this problem. They want a "world class" software development team but they weren't willing to pay anybody more than 60k annually to do so. Then they complain that the best applicants don't want the job.

[@suberon9173]

Parkinson's law employers want subordinates not rivals

[@thatguybob6088]

Honestly I hate the fact that so much of the hiring process is just psychology. Recruiters decided that super general/vague things such as resume gaps, being over/underqualified, not having been hired before etc are red flags, because of heuristics. Meanwhile charming manipulators who are good at interviews are somehow green flags. Now we all have to follow this nonsense.

[@Gnomezonbacon]

That's when you make your own company.

[@Maelstromme]

@@thatguybob6088Screw charming manipulators.

[@charlesheller4667]

Back in the 80s (yes 40 years ago) I remember my Dad (may he rest in peace), saying that college degrees have become high school diplomas. He was right.

[@sweetsendaedreamr]

True. As human labor is devalued and employers don't want to pay worth, human degree requirements become diluted. They still cost to get.

[@SusiesRepeat]

In more ways as I think the standard for a degree has slipped to just above a high school diploma.

[@al-imranadore1182]

​@@sweetsendaedreamr value of education decreasing but cost of education increasing, educational inflation.

[@codenamezz9993]

True. The education I am having right now at University is no where near what I received in a certificate I've passed in the same university 15 years ago...in the same field. I am in the 3rd year of this degree and it mostly a waste of time and money right now. But I need the paper to maybe one day, have a better position.

[@NameRequiredSoHere]

And a high school diploma today is a grade school diploma.

[@Lordofthedawgs]

Company did the same thing. “We don’t require a degree anymore.” Mysteriously, every candidate that made it past the HR screening had a college degree

[@spekops7527]

The other real reason they do this is because some very intelligent people can teach themselves advanced skills without going to college. They want to be able to make exceptions for them and hire them. Someone who taught themselves computer science is likely to be much smarter and more driven than someone who had to pay a university to teach them. Such a person is rare so that is why most people still need degrees.

[@comochinganconesto]

Because no one wants to take 4 years of their career to teach someone how to, in my case code, from the ground up, it would be very wasteful cost wise for yourself and the company as it would take you out of your projects to train someone up, in my case in a single programming language, only to to have them need further training on another language later on. If that were the case I would want to be paid for such rigorous training which... guess what... is what college professors do! Just so that you don't think I'm talking out my ass, I'm an Applications Development Manager, with 13 years experience. And no I would not hire someone with out a college degree in CS, because I know that CS graduates can teach themselves new languages and the theory down. All I have to train them in is our software development cycle and they can be productive right away. The only way I would hire someone without a degree is if they had at least 4 years of development experience and a ton of projects under their belt, and even then, their code if often very procedural and often redundant; needing to get optimized often. You more often than not end up butting heads with them because they think they are right and when you take the 4 hours to optimize their code with them they end up backing down and learning a new skill... that they would have learned during college! Nothing against self taught developers I have a few and they are wonderful people, they just don't have the knowledge to create something that is easy to read, easy to change, and that is performant in an enterprise environment. So they often need more experience with the basics of computer programing that it's just easier to get someone that's formally trained.

[@Lordofthedawgs]

@@spekops7527 "Someone who taught themselves computer science is likely to be much smarter and more driven than someone who had to pay a university to teach them" Ehh, I work in data, specifically in the engineering portion and have experience in BI. I couldn't tell ya the amount of aspiring "data analysts" couldn't give us the most basic business questions during discussions at my first company. Sure, they knew the syntax and fundamentals of coding languages such as python, R, or SQL, but they couldn't explain how their code would translate to business success. I think only one guy knew even what KPI meant and none of them knew how to create one. The most successful people in the data departments that I worked in did well because they had a fundamental understanding of how other teams operated, which they gained through experience in college. TLDR: Work in data. Most self taughters don't pan out in real world.

[@Ushio01]

Well with 1 in 3 American's already having a college degree it's not really surprising. It will take a few years for enough young people to skip college/university and straight enter the workforce and a lot of them will probably go into trades which are paying more at the moment due to the small labour pool as all the baby boomers retire (the youngest baby boomers turn 60 this year).

[@Iscore4]

@@spekops7527 As someone who works in tech. That is not the reason why they got rid of the degree requirement. Software Engineering is a very easy and accessible thing to teach yourself and there are many non Comp sci students with those skills. Being self taught says nothing about your intelligence when it comes to programming jobs. There are many kids and high schoolers who can code well since its taught in schools and programs. As well as youtube videos and bootcamps. At this point everyone and their mother can code. Also computer science is very different than software engineering or programming. The more difficult fields of CS tend not to hire people without degrees such as AI related jobs.

[@BrettBoi4117]

This is your daily reminder that your local community college is a great investment and significantly reduces the cost of a BA degree if you transfer.

[@RefreshingShamrock]

This only applies if your CC even offers BAs 😂

[@imethanOW]

@@RefreshingShamrockhe literally just said "significantly reduces the cost of a BA degree **if you transfer**"

[@ZAlexXian]

@@RefreshingShamrock bruh read the comment its if you transfer

[@brianwingate1504]

Very important to note that it CAN reduce the cost IF the credits transfer.

[@natesamadhi33]

@@RefreshingShamrock if it doesnt offer a BA/BS, you just transfer to another local college that does offer a BA/BS.

[@mathisleyenda8724]

As a African American kid my Father and Grandfather would tell me every other day growing up “You can’t no longer make it in this world without a college degree” I went to college & after I graduated nobody cared I had one.

[@myoutuber77]

That suggests you are looking for the wrong jobs and employers.

[@davidcarvajal5739]

AS a person of color, you have to create your own job.

[@j10001]

What college students don’t seem to understand is that when they graduate, they’re going to be competing with all the other college graduates. The diploma is now a “hygiene factor.“ The question will be, “So what sets you apart now?” That’s why you need to work hard to get jobs, quality internships, volunteer or leadership positions, etc. Stuff to build out your résumé. I worked up from nothing during college (heck, I was very lucky even to get into college and had to apply three times), and it was a brutal fight to get anybody to give me a chance-but I was relentless, and that persistence let me get slightly better jobs than my peers, slightly earlier than they did while I worked my way through college. And eventually that compounded into a _much_ better internship before I graduated, and a much better job out of college. It’s just marginal differences that can set you apart, because they accumulate like compound interest. I will definitely grant, though, that I’m not black, and that would have been another big barrier to overcome in the job market. Anyway, I’m saying all of this to be encouraging that eventually hard work can pay off. 🏆 Don’t listen to people who discourage you or say there’s no hope. Keep your chin up and stick with it!

[@hplayer7383]

I’m in the same situation and it fucking sucks. Had I known then what I know now I would have made more connections in college, joined a sorority, etc. All I did was keep my head down and get good grades and it wasn’t enough.

[@Desperado665]

What did you study brother?

[@kylegonewild]

Something a lot of people leave out of the "just go do trades" bit is how hard that shit can be on your body and how much more likely you are to be injured on any given day. The money sounds great until heavy machinery explodes your shin or something and you don't have employer health insurance. This is coming from someone who has worked in multiple trades during my late teens and 20s within a family of tradesmen. There are real considerations to make.

[@amicaaranearum]

A lot of the people pushing the trades are ignoring how rough these jobs are on your body. My husband has been doing building repairs and maintenance for over 30 years, and he can feel his body breaking down. You’d better save for retirement, because it’s not a job you can do in old age.

[@justintempus7406]

When I was going through grad school, about 15% of the students I was a TA for were tradesmen in their early-mid 50's with broken bodies. If you do it, save diligently or there's a good chance you'll be scrounging for an unexpected second career. They all had a great study and work ethic, I'm not throwing shade, but it's not something most of them expected.

[@Pacemaker_fgc]

Especially since companies have paid off the government to deregulate or just flat out stop enforcing safety laws. People in Florida are dying of heat stroke on the job and the state government responds by removing safety restrictions so that profits don’t take a negligible hit.

[@chibiredhead7082]

​@@Pacemaker_fgc Do you know of some news articles that explain how they get away with that?

[@fastmaker9091]

My understanding is the whole point of going in into a trade is to become a licensed contractor by passing the test starting your own contracting business. Once you are licensed, you can have apprentices and journeyman do all of the hard work.

[@crow2989]

Having connections once agains proves to be the most valuable thing people can have. It’s insane how much you notice it once you realize how many people have their jobs through connections or nepotism, especially in high earning jobs

[@edheldude]

If you ever have a company, you'll understand why it's done.

[@crow2989]

@@edheldude You could… explain? like you speak as if you know so why not just say it

[@user-lp6qb3dv1m]

you wouldnt give your buddy a high postion at your work place if you were the boss?

[@cptndunsel2670]

​@@user-lp6qb3dv1mIf your buddy is incompetent or ill suited to the role, then that mindset will cost you in the long run.

[@nikm4253]

@@crow2989 I'm not a business owner, but I'm going to assume you'll want to hire people you can trust. Also a lot of jobs can be done by just about anyone with the proper amount of training.

[@martypoll]

I got a bachelors in physics in 1979. I got a lab tech job. I got a masters in Mechanical Engineering in 1983. I got an engineering job. I graduated from a good school, UC Berkeley. No college debt for either degree. Worked 30 years and retired at 55. It was a very different world in my day.

[@nwatson2773]

I was just born then.

[@Wft-bu5zc]

Everything, including college and housing, is now about lining the pockets of billion dollar corporations. Greed has ruined the world.

[@TheTruth-cg8vj]

Where I'm from, they would never let you do an Engineering Masters without a Bachelors. They would force you to do, at a minimum, a qualifying year pre Masters. The reason being the fourth year of a bachelor's is already master's level work and weeding out takes place in the first three years. Brains or innate ability has nothing to do with it. They want you to prove your stuff and suffer thru the first three years and compete to be a "real" engineer, verses someone called an "engineer" at his firm because it's less expensive that paying him more. There's also the excellent chance without the grounding in the applied math of the first three years you wouldn't be able to handle the work. If you don't believe me, go to any college bookstore, pick up a graduate level engineering text, turn to a page with a series of math expressions, and try to follow what they're talking about. An engineering or physics grad would have no problem, someone with a degree in chemistry would find it next to impossible and someone with a 2-year degree or four year BA...

[@martypoll]

@@TheTruth-cg8vj Read what I wrote - undergrad physics degree. My ME focus was heat transfer and thermodynamics. Similar to physics but with a different emphasis.

[@masonhancock5350]

Respect to your discipline and also your wisdom

[@Poopoocachoo]

My dad dealt with the college degree dilemma. He’d been the top technician at several dealerships, was in national training roles, one of the first five people in the country to be certified to work on hybrids for Toyota He tried to get jobs in the car industry above technician for years but was always met with “you need a college degree” thing He eventually found a company that looked at his actual experience instead of a piece of paper and he’s earned a half dozen promotions since then

[@stischer47]

My brother was in the same position. He was the only person who really understood the line of computers that the company was selling for millions. The company kept pushing him to get a degree, ANY degree, so they could promote him. Unfortunately, his wife didn't really want him to be promoted because they would end up moving. So, he ended up training others who were promoted and when the company was merged with another, he was let go.

[@Poopoocachoo]

@@stischer47 that’s crazy. Hope he’s doing alright now though

[@cc_snipergirl]

Sometimes it is just about jumping the hoops for the piece of paper. In that case, going somewhere expensive enough it requires loans is not worth it. Just get the paper for cheapsies from a local college and avoid the hassle of watching people pass you by. Or even better yet if a company offers tuition reimbursement.

[@KBergs]

@@stischer47 What a selfish wife lol

[@antonkushnikov1085]

My mother had an engineering degree. She worked for a bit as a geologist, then, soon after the Soviet Union collapsed, she found a job in the hr department of a local commercial bank. Climbed up the corporate ladder, but at some point the management required her to get a law degree in order to get promoted further. She managed that, became the head of department, then got laid off anyway, when a larger federal bank bought that bank and their hr dept became redundant.

[@fieryelf]

When I was younger my father used to say that the only reason people of my generation got pushed into schools was because baby boomers took too much place on the job market and they needed to keep us out of the work force for as long as possible.

[@Code7Unltd]

Now, boomers are out of the workforce and these companies care more about possible tax breaks, hence why jumping a border (or not having pale skin) is more valuable than a college degree.

[@clapclapapp]

last 20 years in a nutshell

[@tysone1254]

I used to think about that too 😂

[@FelipeKana1]

Smart father

[@trinity6180]

Sociologically sound at the political level. It is not why parents pushed it. They too were told that was what was best for their kids. You have to understand how student loans were changed by the government between when boomers went to college to now. It used to be simple interest not compounding. While checking that out look at how they changed credit card interest after the recession of the late seventies and early 80s. It went from about 7% fixed interest to variable that went up and down. Mostly up. I hope more people get to understand this instead of making it a war of the generations. That will get us nowhere. I have been warning about devaluing college degrees for decades but I was in college I worked in a university office of planning budget and analysis. It was clear to me that this was what the push. Colleges back then did not claim to be job training. Skilled trades have usually paid well. Unfettered immigration has hurt those wages but they are still good. My grandson is a construction supervised and runs multiple job sites. He start at just above minimum wage as a laborer. He got a few promotions and then covid hit. I told him to get off the unemployment that was paying about what he got working. He started calling the company and asking to go to work while others didn’t want to give up their unemployment. He now has companies coming to him and is making over $100K, benefits, company pays for his gas, and other perks. In the past his job went to engineers. Now they want the proven experience and ability. I saw what was coming when the lockdowns in most states continued past a couple weeks. They called it the new normal. Wait until you see what else they have in mind to change the world as we know it.

[@janp3331]

I found that college degrees were used as a barrier to prevent hiring/promoting certain people. When I had a lot of experience, but no degree I was constantly told I wasn't chosen because the person hired/promoted had a degree. So I went back to school and obtained a degree, MBA, and certifications in my field. My salary doubled and I find people actually listen to me now. Do I think my degree made the difference? No. I think I was in the right place at the right time and was hired/promoted by someone who saw my value, regardless of my degree. The only difference is now I have a bunch of student loans.

[@NickM_FirstofHisName]

That's why I lie on my resume. I now say that I have a 2-3 years degree. Because I can do the job, and I have a damn GED! But they won't even call me back.

[@TheRogueRockhound]

One thing I never hear about is how hard "blue collar" work is on your body. I got my degrees because I worked as a certified electrician and my body got wrecked. I was in great shape but you can only hold your arms above your head for so many hrs before your shoulders and back are toast. Sure, you can get "above average" pay for these jobs but you wont be able to do them for long. How many 60 y/o roofers do you see? how about framers? or plumbers? You dont see them often b/c they usually have ruined their bodies so badly they need constant medical care. Meanwhile, look how many paper-pushers are in their 60s... If youre gonna work till you die, you might as well be as comfortable as possible.

[@bryanalejandro7323]

True, I’m 20 and am feeling the onset of back pain and other problems. Not to mention the 13-14 hour shifts take a toll on your mental health eventually

[@fosterduncan7]

Not to mention the Quality of life on the construction job sites usually terrible little to no bathrooms, nasty porta potties, and it’s always dirty

[@MikuHatsune159]

This. This is exactly why I'd prefer to be pushing the useless paper. I'm not looking to be crippled because of hard work even if it pays well....

[@Jv9569]

You sound soft as hell, my dad is in his 60s doing electrician work. Maybe some trt and exercise would help.

[@MeroWeroSincero]

You sound soft as hell, my dad is on his 60s doing electrical work and renovation construction and his body isn't destroyed.

[@KingUnKaged]

What a perfect ending for the Millenial Story Arc. Enter the workforce during an economic catastrophe, come of age just in time for homes to become unaffordable, then get lapped by upcoming generations because the value of your education been cut in half while your debt has doubled. What are the odds of catching this many L's?

[@comochinganconesto]

What about all the 6 figure STEMS college graduates making 6 figures from my generation? My self included... still in high demand.

[@rashad4333]

@@comochinganconestoa small minority

[@comochinganconesto]

@@rashad4333 The median income for millennials is $70,000. We did fine as a generation, the issue is and always has been that companies saw all that money and went after it by hook or by crook, and with all the deregulation that was done by the previous generations our government didn't defend us at all (see the latest inflationary causes). Don't put this on the millennials, put these L's on the generations that came before that fell hook line and sinker for the lies their companies told them.

[@Lomhow]

Well there are 3 Ls in MiLLenniaL so 3 strikes and you're out

[@Lomhow]

​@@comochinganconesto incredibly narcissistic of you. I know people from your generation who are indebt and homeless couch surfing

[@liz2352]

I’m in staffing & when a certification in a job posting is listed as “not required but preferred,” we usually require it, but it’s our way to get more applicants just to keep numbers up. Sooo shady

[@JAlexanderCurtis]

How would making it required get you more applicants? You reduced the applicant pool. I think you mean it makes it easier to select. I just finished hiring for a position that reports to me and I remember telling the recruiter we had hired that a certain certification would be a nice "bonus". I found out later that she just only passed on candidates that actually had that certification because we had 800 applicants for the job and 300 of them had the certification. So she didn't bother looking at the 500 people that didn't have it. Even though I didn't necessarily care about the certification, she used it as a filtering criteria and only sent me people that had it. So as a hiring manager I only ever interviewed people that had the certification, which wasn't a requirement. I think this is how the college degree is working out. Companies technically don't care anymore, but its still an easy way to filter a huge applicant pool. So in practice it still happens even though its not a technical requirement on the job application.

[@CakeDispenser]

@@JAlexanderCurtis What do you mean by keeping the numbers up? Is there some quota the company has to meet for applicants applying or something?

[@WutherWave-qc3ud]

Thanks for telling me 😅 ;-; now I know to skip those

[@just_another_bot0110]

As someone who was lucky to work for Google for some time what pisses me off the most of jobs now is they have the audacity to make people go through 3+ interviews, ask impossible questions and demand you solve a problem before hiring you as if they pay Google wages. The disrespect these piece of shit companies have to try and make you do free labor then offer you under $25 an hour is insane. I hope more companies go under because of their idiot hiring managers. No one who is worth hiring will do this. Only those desperate enough for a job will go through all those hurdles. I truly hope all of you the best of luck out there. I see how bad it is for you

[@seyi777]

Seriously! Had a few applications where they wanted entry level folks to have 2-4 years of professional experience, multiple hiring rounds, and coding challenges/projects just to be paid maybe 60k

[@MelaniaSideWigga]

Agreed. And, it's not just Google. even second third and lower tier companies make the application process a full-time job. That's not worth my time.

[@just_another_bot0110]

@archlab007 That's what I meant. When I applied for Google I at least knew it would be worth it. These low rate companies adopted all of the requirements google has when It comes to hiring practices but conveniently forgot to also match Googles wages

[@just_another_bot0110]

@luke5100 That's probably because you can't read. Or decided to skim. I was expressing my distain for low-level companies using Googles hiring tactics to force potential employees to do so much for a chance to be hired then offering them below average wages

[@mortvald]

@luke5100 Maybe you should throw your BS-meter to the trash and buy a pair of glasses instead.

[@chriseggleston4841]

I work at a restaurant and have been in the industry for a couple of decades. My current general manager has an MBA and is by far the least effective and least inspiring manager I've had in my career. Some people manage to fake their way through school while learning absolutely nothing.

[@ISpitHotFiyaa]

Just FYI, in business school pretty much everybody graduates. If the school is highly ranked then admission is difficult but once you're in unless you completely blow it off or you stop paying tuition you're going to graduate. And there are many business schools that aren't highly ranked and who take pretty much anyone.

[@_Ekaros]

Seems like they have sold you well that education actually teaches anything...

[@ashleyconnor8891]

Just because someone is educated doesnt mean they’re smart

[@W81Researcher]

​@@ashleyconnor8891exactly.

[@W81Researcher]

​@@ISpitHotFiyaapart of me regrets not majoring in business as it is a good way to make connections. But all some people do is just do class work and get nothing.

[@poorwotan]

Here in Puerto Rico, the 'state' university pumps out grads yearly left and right. Yet, jobs are scarce. Thus, companies can ask for a degree for the lowest paid jobs. I swear I have seen listing for fast food cashier with a bachelors requirement...

[@THEDRAWINGSTUDIO1]

Nunca he visto eso de bachelor's pa ser cajero. Tienes evidencia?

[@poorwotan]

@@THEDRAWINGSTUDIO1 En ESTE momento no vi uno en indeed. Pero como un año atras, hablando con un pana sobre este tema y haciendo una busqueda, vimos varios con requerimientos de grados associados minimo y bachilleratos tambien. Me parecio tan absurdo que se me quedo quemado en la mente. Si me recuerdo bien, eran en cadenas fast food de nombre. Saludos desde SJ y ojala Ernesto no te afecto!!!

[@John_Smith_86]

Probably hoping more of the cashiers will speak English well. And can figure out the change, if the machine breaks

[@rontom3405]

" We are gonna start with the good news first :D " " college degrees are expensive "

[@JoannaEve]

Good to be realistic 😂

[@Shuker8964]

Trade jobs have an easier path

[@HighDiver5555]

This is the comment I've bee looking for or I was going to make it on my own haha

[@gregorybiestek3431]

@@Shuker8964 If you really think that , I suggest you read all the postings in reply to @kylegonewild. Almost all of the skilled trade people responding report having broken bodies by the time they are 40 and are unable to continue those lines of work.

[@chondi8671]

@hampdog same😂

[@djbobby224]

I think a huge problem you didn't mention was outsourcing cheap labor. Even in feilds that make money like cs, many entry-level roles are taken such as help desk and junior developer roles. This means students have to do unpaid internships to even get experience.

[@dmonee6196]

Right. Those workers all have training and education so they can do the work. Lowering our overall education level will put us as a nation behind others. In the long run, that’s bad. Which is why education should be far better subsidized. Education also makes it harder for certain kinds of populists to manipulate the populace. It also increases support for policies that help more people instead of just the people at the top.

[@Tomdelongpenis]

​@cristianaraujo9293nobody has ever said criticizing outsourcing is racist you clown

[@robertbeisert3315]

Can confirm. Most of the people I've worked with in software have been either visa holders working for appallingly little or overseas "developers" who can't install their own IDE's without screwing it up. We can't hire one competent with 2-3 years of experience at entry level because we're spending their salary on foreign contractors who can't deliver.

[@rayden54]

@@robertbeisert3315 You can't hire entry level people because you want 2-3 years experience for an entry level job.

[@stischer47]

@@rayden54 Exactly. Like wanting experience is a SW app longer than the app has been out.

[@MonkeyMind69]

It used to be that people would gain their education on the job. This even applied to doctors. People would apprenticeship to learn the skill-sets necessary for the line of work they got into. The benefit was that companies would need to invest in their employees, which made the employees more valuable to the company itself. It also wouldn't "cost" the employee to learn, as they could at least earn a menial wage while learning. The need for college could be mitigated by returning to this system, as would employee turnover. Win-win.

[@LIVdaBrand]

Yea but they cut corners. Why we have products failing😅

[@krox477]

Nowadays companies want 10 years of experience

[@WutherWave-qc3ud]

@@krox477for entry level..

[@4RILDIGITAL]

It's quite revealing to see how the perception of a college degree has changed over the years. Not going to college has cost benefits, but not having a degree could limit opportunities in some fields. It's a complex issue with no easy solutions.

[@wizzyno1566]

Its coming down to money maths and what the degree is and whether the job you want REQUIRES a degree. Its not that complicated - for the majority of people its a terrible decision long term.

[@natesamadhi33]

Im thankful i waited 13 years to start getting a degree, because now I know how the game goes in the real world: The key is to NEVER EVER take out loans. Once you take out loans, you've already set yourself back by many years (and if it's six-figure debt, it's a high chance it's for LIFE). I work at a company that gives me tuition-reimbursement that essentially pays for my degree. When you get college-credits for free under the same company thats giving you work-experience, thats the ideal way to do it. The other option is full-ride scholarships, but if you dont achieve that, then still, DO NOT get loans. GO TO AN ACCREDITED COMMUNITY-COLLEGE FIRST. Do not waste unnecessary money on the same lessons you can learn for thousands of dollars less. Take CLEP exams and see which local colleges accept which CLEP credits. See if you qualify for Pell Grants that will pay the way through CC. Instead of one, big scholarship, acquire many smaller, local scholarships that arent crazy competitive. Have a job simultaneously (hopefully that offers some kind of tuition-reimbursement) so you're getting real-world experience and saving up money in-case of an emergency. So basically, its a combination of Pell grants, small scholarships, and job tuition-reimbursement to get through college (but NO loans). So far, I've not paid a dime for college and have no student-loans I'm getting a degree all the same.

[@Code7Unltd]

It's almost like the real purpose of a college degree is the money wasted rather than things learned. Remember the grey area of the self-studied (read: autodidacts).

[@TheNerdsFromHell]

It's called what managers have more say than HR. HR are the box taking pricks who started this shit. Some companies still will take a fresh graduate with a bachelor's degree in my field over me who has 6 years of experience including management positions

[@doujinflip]

​Also the benefits of the social connections -- or at least positive bias -- that comes from studying on the same campus. The more selective and elite, the better.

[@philcollins5457]

Every time I watch your videos, I feel more educated about money, but the sense that I need to buy a pitchfork gets stronger.

[@tychozzyx9439]

Consider it an investment. Better to buy now than when everyone wants one

[@krazyxki]

@@tychozzyx9439 Buy a bunch then resell them for quadruple the value when they're all sold out and in high demand.

[@hitmanekoyslnp8572]

5:08

[@ClaytonBridges]

I went to community college and earned two associates degrees, both in things im interested in. One is actually a trade as an auto mechanic. I have to say, terrible move. Not all trades are built the same, and some are genuinely not worth going into. Additionally, the trades arent for everyone. They're massively overhyped right now, especially by people who have NEVER worked a day in the trades. I think people are being incredibly irresponsible by recommending the trades will nilly, and again, the PAY is especially overhyped. Its true, you can make a good living in the trades, but people are acting like its a get rich quick scheme now.

[@wwm84]

Companies at large need to bring back OTJ training. The vast majority of jobs can be learned within a few weeks to a couple months, but companies somewhere decided they no longer wanted to train up and comers, and only wanted people with mid- or senior experience for entry level roles. "But but if companies train someone, that person will just leave for a different company!" is an argument I hear too often. Well, if that's the case, then the company needs to examine why people they train up leave. There are four questions they need to ask: - Are they offering a salary that allows a person to live in the area? - Are the benefits good (PTO, 401k match, health, etc)? - Is the work environment and culture non-toxic? - Boss/supervisor is competent and not a bag of shit? If the company can't answer Yes to those four questions, then the No(s) need to be addressed to make the company a place people want to be at, and retention will go up.

[@comochinganconesto]

I am not going to take the 4 years of my career to teach someone how to code from the ground up, it would be very wasteful cost wise as it would take me out of my projects to train someone up in a single language, only to to have them needing further training on another language later on. If that were the case I would have to be paid for such rigorous training which... guess what... is what college professors do! Just so that you don't think I'm talking out my ass, I'm an Applications Development Manager, with 13 years experience. And no I would not hire someone with out a college degree in CS, because I know that they can teach themselves new languages and have learned how to learn. All I have to train them in is our software development cycle. The only way I would hire someone without a degree is if they had at least 4 years of development experience and a ton of projects under their belt, and even then, their code if often very procedural and often redundant and needing to get optimized. Nothing against self taught developers, they just don't have the knowledge to create something that is easy to read and easy to change. So they often need more experience with the basics of computer programing that it's just easier to get someone that's formally trained.

[@secretpeace-wp6xg]

This is the conversation we need to have but companies don't want to budge. They would rather go belly up than improve their system. To my understanding the job market began turning into this around 2008 when employers realized they could fuse different jobs and make into one job so that one person manages the entire department instead of having more than one to do it. This was also around the time companies began using an ATS but with how much of a hit or miss an HRIS functions Companies miss out on the best talent because they didn't tick all the boxes.

[@herp_derpingson]

Similarly, the only companies hiring juniors are the same people who have difficulty hiring seniors in the first place. Its not that they are hiring juniors out of benevolence, but their working conditions are so bad that no senior would want to work for them.

[@robertbeisert3315]

We need entry level jobs back to make this happen. We outsourced those between the 70's and 00's.

[@ISpitHotFiyaa]

A university degree isn't really substituting for on-the-job training. Companies are still doing that. When I've had a new engineer join my group I've had to spend significant time training them. The real question is could I take an 18 year old with no education beyond high school and through a little bit more training get them to the same level as the 22 year old with the degree? And honestly (presuming we're talking about kids of equal intelligence) I think I could.

[@josephcarland]

The idea of starting from the bottom on the factory floor and climing the ladder don't happen any more.

[@Redmanticore]

havent happened since the 1960s. probably since the 1930s.

[@MakotoOPT]

yeah no the harder you work the less likely your job is to promote you something corporate does its weird

[@docvolt5214]

Yeah I ended up learning from the factory floor and then opening my own business because most of companies with above 50 employees are guided by morons

[@cs8712]

Oh you can still climb the ladder. But when you get to the top they'll still pay you the same salary from when you were at the bottom.

[@nonawolf7495]

The military isn't for everyone - but it was a good route for me. Got paid while I learned a skill, had a guaranteed income while I was in, and had zero debt and valuable experience when I got out. (Plus I got a VA loan, and was able to buy a house with zero downpayment). Given that you might get killed, it is an admittedly big trade off.... but with no experience, no family support, and no education - for some people it's the only game in town.

[@notsogrimadventures3053]

This is the route I took as well (had a dad who was military), and now have a great job as a civilian from valuable skills I acquired in the military. Also, a lot of military jobs are now desk jobs (like mine), and I believe a lot of people don’t realize this

[@TexasMade903]

The best decision I ever made was joining the military right out of high school. The VA loan, GI BILL, and I just recently got my 100% disability rating. No more property taxes, lol. Also, my veteran status helped me get my government job. My military benefits have blessed me in so many ways. My two oldest are now serving the military.

[@debbiegilmour6171]

Statistically, most military people are killed in both work accidents and out of work accidents rather than by direct enemy action, so long as you don't get involved in a high intensity war.

[@pianoman47]

Personally, I think it depends on whether or not you know what you want to get out of your degree, and whether it's in a field that you actually want to work in. Too many young people (including myself ten years ago) go to university blindly because someone told them to. By the time you figure out what you want to do with your life, you've already sunk a bunch of money (and years) into getting a degree that might or might not be relevant to that goal. I'm a huge proponent of waiting a few years after high school before you go to university, or first getting a college diploma. Meanwhile, sure, lots of people have degrees in philosophy or economics, to the point that people joke about these degrees being "useless". These degrees aren't useless or useful in and of themselves, and they're very relevant to certain types of career (or even just personal development goals). But you have to know what you want to combine it with if what you're interested in is "return on investment". Just my two cents that no one asked for and that the comment algorithm isn't going to show to anyone ;)

[@Roccofan]

I have a new chief that has traveled a lot. I’m a guy that grew up walking barefoot in a third world country. I came to America, got a degree and worked my way up to a nice position. One of my employees got on the phone with me and my new chief and they started talking about various ski resorts they had visited. My employee comes from a well-to-do family. Think about if I was competing with my employee for the job I have, he would have been able to build rapport with the boss because of their shared upper middle class upbringing. Sure college education, race, sex, age, blah blah can impact your hiring and promotion, but being able to connect with your boss and co-workers based on shared experiences, colleges, etc. is a very big deal.

[@badgerattoadhall]

"its not what you know its who you blow" is a saying for a reason.

[@TheBlackWaltz]

I forsaw this happening 20 years ago when I was in high-school. College was never meant to be for everyone. It was always meant to be for specific careers that do require extra schooling. Most jobs do not require anything like that.

[@DRUNKonROOTbeer]

There needs to be a lot of things separated out here. The "College Degree" and "Education" are beginning to split from one another. In my state I needed 120 credit hours to get my degree which if you go for the standard 4 year target you get 30 credit hours a year or 15 per semester. The first 60 credit hours were a continuation of high school. It took half my degree before I started learning anything related to my major at all, and by then I was still forced to take unnecessary electives en route to graduation. All in all I only really ended up taking 7-10 classes with any real substance which if you do the math is only about 25% of the time spent in college. The college experience needs to be 80% specialization and 20% general education instead of the other way around.

[@Triquetra15]

This can’t be more true.

[@erockandroll39]

I think part of the issue is that college education tends to be a bit on the broad side. It could be a stepping stone to a lot of different related fields, but it doesn't adequately prepare you for a specific job. (You probably want an internship for that.) I personally got a comp Sci degree, which could be used in a variety of roles involving programming. But a boot camp had better prepare me for doing the work of a web developer.

[@energyzer_bunny1913]

THANK YOU!!!

[@zettkusanagi6322]

exactly. you enter college thinking you gonna spend the next 4 years immersed in your degree... whats 7-10 classes worth of college time? 1 semester, 2 max ? and 3 1/2 wasted thinking the degree at the end will be worth it. Im 2 classes from graduation. Since I got the associates, havent found a job yet.

[@redrevyol]

A technical degree does exactly that.

[@smallbutdeadly931]

Honestly, its quite stupid. Having to go to school for several years only to come out with a *chance* to get a well paying job, and tons of student loan debt. Yeah I'mma find another way around that, thanks...

[@Liz-wz8dh]

What did these colleges THINK would happen? The whole point of the degree becoming so popular was because people thought they saw a correlation to getting higher paying, non crap work.

[@hailey8941]

@@Liz-wz8dhit’s not their fault, dude. They’ve been screamed at by every adult in their life that college is the only way, so it’s what they do when they graduate high school before they’ve even had any time to figure out who they are as a person. I do think a lot of older adults are stupid and idealist, but I don’t think the answer would be to tell kids to ignore all advice elders have to offer. They only did what they were told by parents, teachers, school counselors, bosses…

[@tjpld]

Laughs in European

[@Kirasfox]

Ridiculous....politicians focus on very petty and unimportant stuff instead stuff like this.....how to make this less of a problem.

[@manofsteel9051]

Lol good luck with that. Pretty much all high paying jobs require a college degree or at least that you got to trade school. The only exception I can think of is sales

[@Entre1099]

Professional job hopper here. 3mo average on a job if you look at my resume. Learned trades, started my own business. I’m basically a landscaping service but also a handyman because I offer many services which I learned by job hopping instead of going to trade school. Landscaping, painting, gutters, boat building, CNC machines, class a truck driver, plumbing, hvac, roofing, tree trimming and planting, mechanic, etc. The best about job hopping is that I got paid to learn all of the skills lol. You gotta think outside the box. F college and those low paying jobs. We got kids to feed, not chickens.

[@OmarBReal]

This is good in theory, but in practice firms will hire people with a degree and pay them a non-degree wage since it's not a "requirement".

[@demon2441]

Those kind of companies already gave peanuts for things like data entry while still requiring the degree.

[@jabirmohammed4846]

This whole story of not requiring a degree in STEM / Medicine/ Law is just simply companies not willing to hire people for a fair price. Thats why all this shennanigans with H1B visa exists

[@robertagren9360]

The lowest places need the highest degree to do what they can't do on their own = Thinking

[@keegansayshi2479]

Nailed it.

[@swushey]

The correct answer is, "It depends." I got a cheap master's that I could affort cash in 2016. Since then, I've worked my way up (it took 5 years or so) to getting $100K+ salary. I would have never gotten my foot in the door without that master's. It makes sense in my industry, and my degree was cheap (in Texas). However, 90+% of what I needed to know is learned on the job. The degree is just an expensive foot in the door. Still worth it for me, but certainly not everyone.

[@Prof856]

Same, my masters was 8 grand at wgu.

[@DevHazy]

Good point. Oklahoma has public schools for my doctorate but I got stuck with private due to having kids so not gonna sell my house and move. Texas tho is similar. Cheaper degrees. Cost of living vs LA and NY where I grew up

[@WTC2014]

I worked at my local railroad that started at 92,000 a year, ended up with a locomotive engineers licence and now make 130,000+. People always forget that certifications and licences are worth just as much as a degree. Also all my training was paid

[@kendallevans4079]

Same here but I think some sort of "screen" is necessary. Requiring a BS is making sure of you have analytical skills, certain levels of communications and the decorum to work with others.

[@abarbar06]

I went to a community college and paid for it with a part time job. Finished at a uni with 0 debt. Got paid to do a PhD. I have an awesome job now and lots of options. I graduated HS in 2010

[@Goldenbear6]

I have overseen interviews from several Fortune 500 companies. The reason they drop the requirement of the college is about selecting the best candidate from an even larger pool (admittedly not all talents have a college degree); but this action alone doesn’t necessarily mean a college degree becomes useless. If you can survive a college, it means you are goal-oriented, can take on some stress, can finish your work before deadline, can navigate through complicated bureaucratic system (think about when you need to transfer school or even request a recommendation letter), and can survive and thrive in a structured schedule - all these qualities are highly desired by modern corporate America. If you don’t have a college degree, you must spend extra effort to prove to your employer that you have these qualities too. Companies don’t require college degree doesn’t mean they don’t prefer a college degree. The real question should be: how can we make colleges more affordable instead of questioning the college degree itself.

[@Dennis0824]

The only issue with your argument is that the educational standards have declined over the past 30 years. If you don't believe me, check out the curriculums of high schools 30 years ago. Many college graduates today couldn't pass a high school final exam. As an employer, I value experience much more than a piece of paper. I would not even consider anyone with a degree from an Ivy League school that graduated after 2000.

[@darylligon2701]

@@Dennis0824 Great point! I think many companies 2001-2010 were burned by college graduates. It was clear that many knew more about partying than any real demonstration or expertise in their field of study. An entitled mentality with a lazy work ethic did not help either. Unfortunately, due to the gluttony of unprepared college graduates this created a stigma that education did not matter. Thus, an employer upon introduction to a hard working, creative, and intelligent job applicant might be more inclined to avoid the college graduate due to the past lackluster performance from other graduates. There isn't enough space on KZbin to discuss the needed college reform. I was stupid myself and obtained my BA in 2008, Master's in 2010, and finally my Ph. D. in 2020. As my dissertation was over 500 pages long, I felt my quasi-experimental study demonstrated competence to perform basic research (at the least). Fast forward to 2024, my education combined with military experience (USMC veteran) was all for nothing. My current supervisor has a High School diploma. Alias, I should have avoided the military and graduated in the 1990's before college went downhill. I will never forget a business undergraduate at Texas A&M who turned down a job at General Mills for 45K per year with a company car in the 1990's. I would love to make 45K per year in 2024! 🙂I think a time machine could be a lucrative invention. Best.

[@danielhale1]

I cheated the system by taking the very anomalous path of cheap college. I didn't go to ivy league crap, I didn't go into debt thanks to scholarships, and I took a lot of classes at once to graduate quickly. Plus I picked a career field that actually paid well (software). I still started work at minimum wage, at first. But my bachelor's degree kept opening doors so I could get the experience I needed for job hopping, and I started climbing the ladder. I thought it was crazy when I heard people were taking out hundreds of thousands in student loans to attend the best colleges, only to hit the job marker like a bird hitting a window. A degree is useful; it's not everything, but it's useful... if you wield it right. A lot of people were scammed, and that's the core problem.

[@CW91]

What year was it when you landed your first full timer job?

[@spekops7527]

At this point a lot of prestigious expensive college degrees are scams. Not everyone can be a technical professional like a doctor, engineer, scientist, mathematician, etc. These for profit colleges want money, professors want money. So they make up bullshit degrees that anyone can do because they don't teach anything challenging and worthwhile. They 6 figures for these degrees with promises of how successful and well equipped it will make people. It tricks people who don't have a lot of critical thinking skills and can be plied through their emotions and vanity. They go into massive debt for these degrees only to have no useful skills at the end. The professors and colleges pocket the money and teach the kids to blame capitalism for why they are broke.

[@mads9259]

1990, probably @@CW91

[@danielhale1]

@@CW91 Oh probably around 2005 or 2006. It's been 2 decades, and in that time the big scam started to teach everyone they had to go to the most expensive college, and take on an oppressive loan to do it. College didn't used to be that way (going to a cheap college was and is a very legit option, and the super pricy colleges were for people who cared about prestige or social connections). Unfortunately, banks and for-profit universities saw an opportunity. My early jobs started me at 7.5 dollars an hour, while the people answering the phones earned a minimum of 9. I had to struggle a bit in my first few years, until I finally started ladder climbing and getting good pay and sane working conditions. Starting jobs usually suck, and I was living in a smaller town that didn't have enough software jobs. I had to move North to find a proper $20/hour job, and a few years later changed jobs again to have a good work environment (and another pay raise). I kept climbing for a while until I foud a place I really liked. I wish people well, especially in the utterly insane workforce of the 2020s.

[@zhongxiancheng4670]

Curious: how were you able to get so many scholarships? Did you look locally?

[@pokemercenary6511]

STEM college grad here. I’ve seen these self taught “engineers” at work and their lack of education is very apparent. I know, higher education is corrupt, cost prohibitive, etc. we need to start demanding more out of our colleges. Relevant skills, affordable prices, two year degrees that make graduates more attractive to the workforce; we need thing like this.

[@marcusagrippa8078]

Get the government out of student loans. Government makes banks give people who can’t afford mortgage’s a mortgage… 08 collapse. Government gives everyone who wants to go to college a loan… college cost increase and college education ROI decreases.

[@AdderallAscension]

@@marcusagrippa8078No man, get for profit colleges out of education. Government funding education is a great thing, actually. For profit schools have significantly higher default rates, worse education experiences, etc

[@marcusagrippa8078]

@@AdderallAscension just look at the correlation of cost from when the government guaranteed schools money. How many adults are drowning in debt due to college and don’t even use their degree? For profit has nothing to do with it and 18 year olds being allowed to borrow 120,000 for a useless degree has everything to do with it. As much as colleges raise tuition the government matches it with lending. If the government gets out it then it wouldn’t matter if a college is for profit or not, but I can guarantee that the prices would decrease and the students graduating would be in a better position than they are now.

[@user-ms2mr2mc3g]

To be fair, I am one of those "self-taught engineers" and in all my last jobs my intuition and critical thinking proved in most cases to ultimately be the route of company decision, rather than the stumbling and oftentimes ill thought out direction of the educated engineers. I'm not so sure that creativity and good project management skills can be taught.

[@yokedss]

@@user-ms2mr2mc3g howd u get into the job market w/o a degree tho?

[@JJ-si4qh]

If the costs weren't so insane, more education would never be a bad thing.

[@jreamscape]

They aren't though.

[@useodyseeorbitchute9450]

Still, there would be huge opportunity cost of not working and of delaying starting a family...

[@Arri7979]

​@@useodyseeorbitchute9450- Who said you can't work or have a family while continuing your education? There are a lot of universities in the US that offer resources for parents and of course working and going to school isn't unheard of. Truthfully, I don't think a few years of an undergraduate program is going to delay someone if they truly want to start a family and if someone wanted to start a job that didn't require a degree, they would have done so. It's obvious that many people going the college route feel like it is necessary for their next steps in life. Whether that is true or not is debatable, but college in it of itself isn't stopping people from pursuing these other paths if they had an interest in them to begin with. Student loans and debt might delay family plans for some people, but might encourage others to pursue more stable job opportunities. It's all more complex than if you do X, then you can't do Y.

[@malekith6522]

@@useodyseeorbitchute9450 for 18th years is not a big of the deal …

[@Dennis0824]

Not necessarily. Even if the education was free and it was total indoctrination it would be less than worthless.

[@BrettBoi4117]

What teenagers don’t understand though is companies are looking for experience over education now. Y’all still lack both. The only way to gain experience is through certifications, getting a degree to fight your way into entry level, or luck.

[@MyWatermelonz]

Certs != Experience. Unfortunately entry level overall is just awful. No jobs train, college degree means less. It just sucks overall.

[@angelantayhua3096]

I would blame authority figures at this point. Experience has always been more valued than education but now education is either seen as a baseline or sometimes irrelevant.

[@yovani-dev]

teenagers know this, parents dont.

[@MajorHickE]

Either way, that doesn't change the fact that it's impossible for young adults in these entry level jobs to move out without splitting a 2 bedroom with 3 other people. Wages simply haven't kept up; it's not Gen Z/Alpha's fault for wanting a life outside of work.

[@draneym2003]

I graduated 20 years ago. You weren't getting an interview without the piece of paper. That's on the employers, not me. Now you bet I'm going to be angry when I had to pay tens of thousands to get the degree when you forced me to get it and now don't require it.

[@meursault-ey7wq]

I have a four year degree, but I have a cleaning job because I can’t even get an “entry level” office job.

[@Vortexnicholas]

Same here. And I’m thinking of pursuing a different degree. My psyc degree absolutely useless

[@meursault-ey7wq]

@@Vortexnicholas I’m working on a certification now, but it’s hard not to be bitter about starting from scratch.

[@antviper135]

​@@VortexnicholasPsychology right? Do mind working with people with severe mental illnesses? Like PTSD, Bi Polar, and Schizophrenia. I have a M.A. in Comparative Religion with a minor in Spanish. I studied a lot of mental health and healing methods, and my final paper was on mental health. I start my job as Residential Support Specialist in 2 weeks. There was a group interview with about 13 of us, and maybe a 3rd of them had a B.A. in psychology. Pros: -Dental -Medical -Vision -Public Service Loan Forgiveness -Advancement in studies -They'll pay for your LPC and LSC Cons: -I could get stabbed by a 6'2 schizophrenic person -Overnight shift (More pay though) -You have to deal with people with VERY severe mental disorders -The patients might try to kill themselves

[@antviper135]

@@Vortexnicholas Psychology degree right? Do mind working with people in a residential setting with severe mental disorders like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, PTSD, and borderline personality disorder? I have a M.A. in Comparative Religion with a minor in Spanish (Yea I know most useful degree of all time). I studied a lot of mental health, and my final thesis was on mental health and alternative healing methods. I start my new job as Residential Support Specialist in 2 weeks. I had a initial phone screening 3 weeks ago. Then the next week there was a group interview with 13 other candidates (4 people didn't show up). I don't quite remember how many, but maybe a 3rd of the candidates had a B.A. in Psychology. Pros: -Medical, Vision, Dental, 401K -Public Service Loan Forgiveness -Degree Advancement -They'll pay for your LPC, LCPC, LSW, or LCSW Cons: -I could get stabbed by a patient with schizophrenia -Overnight shift (Nobody wants to work overnight, but it is more pay) -Some patients will try to kill themselves Edit: At the group interview the Assistant director said, "Nobody wants to work in this field." Now I don't blame them, but that is kind of how you find employment. To do the jobs that nobody wants to do. It also depends on where you live. You could try your luck there.

[@colbyboucher6391]

@@Vortexnicholas I don't really get how anyone would think that a batcherlors' in psych _isn't_ useless. If you actually want to work in anything where that would be relevant, you need a masters'. That's the only sane reason to go for it.

[@TravisMcMurray]

My undergrad is in music education. It was quite literally a requirement for state licensure to teach K-12 music in a public school. Sure, there are plenty of jobs out there that probably shouldn’t require a degree, but there are some professions that will and should always require higher education. It doesn’t make you “elite” or better than anyone else.

[@piscesgrl0]

Absolutely. People think they can do some jobs without the required education (pretty much anything in education or social services), but there's a reason education and licensure is mandatory. I'd like to see this channel highlight some non-white collar careers, because not everyone is working in business or tech.

[@LeesaLilHop]

Of course if you are going into education, you need to get a college degree. If you want to become a doctor you will still need to go to medical school. We are talking about how ANY degree to get ANY job is becoming an issue.

[@dms79]

@@LeesaLilHop College degrees have essentially become the weed-out process for companies, like a high school diploma used to be.

[@sk8n854]

I'm doing skilled work in pc and server repair, and I have an associate degree in IT and I get paid the same amount(or maybe even less) than I would if I was flipping burgers at McDonald's. These companies know that they can take advantage of people trying to get their foot in the door who need experience because nobody will hire you without previous experience.

[@djm2189]

Yes but you have much more potential. Stick with it, you'll find way more doors open and remember this, all industries have computers. You'll always be needed. I did computer science and now work in the biotech industry. Yup, I'm shocked like you 😅

[@theaether4009]

You’re not alone with that feeling

[@redrevyol]

Which tech specialization did you take? I'm doing Computer Programming and Analysis.

[@Gunvaldtheoneandonly]

Do not forget, part of your compensation is improved working conditions. Working in AC, not having to be hustling all shift, not being subject to grease fires and burns. Pay could still be higher though lmao

[@sety409]

Lie on your resume if you can do the job already. Companies rarely respect employees so why respect them? It's just business.

[@josueramirez7247]

I’m just 0:15 seconds into the video but I predict that despite degree requirements being removed by some employers, it’s not going to magically and rapidly become easier for most people without a college degree to get a good job.

[@stevenbaker2736]

Combination of parents pushing for their kids to go to college and the government giving out loans to kids to go to school is what exacerbated the over saturation of college degrees

[@NeighborhoodOfBlue]

In the rise of technology, we were told it was the only way to guarantee a future for yourselves. High Schools pushed the narrative as hard as parents did, and the poorest kids saw no other way out of poverty.

[@tiredguy2753]

Yup I was more or less told “if you don’t graduate from college then you are going to end up working at Burger King forever”. My opinion of college is it is more worth it if you are going for a “golden” degree , so a degree in healthcare (nursing , xray tech etc…), accounting , engineering , computer science etc… if your field of interest is not in any of those fields and god forbid your dream job is something g creative , then I question the purpose of going to college. More often than naught you end up in some job completely unrelated to what you studied , what you want actually want to do and you end up wondering if those 4 years of college where a waste…

[@amicaaranearum]

Also the fact that student-loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. If there were a serious risk of the loans not being repair, lenders would be more discerning, which would encourage students to think more carefully about whether their degrees would increase their earning power.

[@Drindiades]

The loans transform higher education from a privilege of the wealthy to a merit of the capable, whatever their background. So if this relative worth of a college degree before was caused by rampant self-sustaining inequality, that paucity of college degrees was undesirable to begin with

[@donovan5656]

I’m glad(and lucky)my parents paid for my college terms. I’d be pissed if I had to deal with debt AND underemployment

[@Meitti]

Many other countries have a system where you can choose from between a trade school and high school after junior high. Also a college is split in half, into university academia and polytechnic academia. High school graduates have easier time applying to higher education but trade school graduates can also apply for polytechnics with sufficient skills and grades (example electrician applies for a proper tech engineer position). In practice for youth the orientation depends on whether one prefers to either study with practical knowledge, or by theory classes.

[@nabzy28]

You can, literally, watch high level specialized classes from MIT, Yale, etc. right here on KZbin now. Hundreds of hours of information that people spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to listen to. I could feel my eyes glazing over while I watched a finance professor from MIT's video sometime last week. Amazing how it's pretty much the exact same information as 20+ years ago and from a vastly more cost effective path of study, in my case. Brings back memories. Or it could be PTSD. One of those for sure, though.

[@TonKcedua]

Dropped out at the halfway point of my bachelor's and spent 6 months passionately working on open-source projects. Learned the most I've ever learned during those months, all the while enjoying every bit of it. Started applying for jobs and got multiple offers a month later. The best part? Probably didn't even make it past the first round at companies with terrible screening processes, and probably even worse work environments!

[@tc2241]

I had no degree (well, an associates), and earned well into the six figure range. Later into my career I went back to college and my company paid for it, got a pretty letter of recommendation from my old employer. I still don’t feel I needed it, but it was annoying being head of a department and seeing the disgust on people’s faces whenever I mentioned I didn’t have one. So now I no longer have to deal with that.

[@the_expidition427]

A degree no matter the sub type is a degree

[@FlexibleFlyer50]

An undergraduate degree used to mean something. Right now, it means nothing. Too many marginal students are attending college and not learning a damn thing. I should know---I spent 53 years teaching. I've seen the curriculum dumbed down in grade school and high school; I've seen college students who are barely able to read and write on the 5th grade level. I've seen Polish students who had a stellar knowledge of geography and history----and American students couldn't even tell me where Poland was on a world map. Some students are mentally equipped for college life, but many are clueless and believe their college experience should be no-brainer courses, weekends filled with partying and drinking, and someone behind the scenes ready to do their work because they are either too lazy or too incompetent to do it themselves. College definitely is not what it used to be, and attending/graduating from college is no guarantee of success post-college/university.

[@zachweyrauch2988]

Anybody else notice how being good at a job isnt one of the metrics for the value of an employee?

[@Demopans5990]

A game of office politics

[@stevenholmes8854]

It really depends on the self-assessment of a "good job". Many people have an inflated sense of self-worth without being able to show proof of capability. It is tragic when an employee is good, but never given a chance to show that.

[@hereforvids1514]

They don’t know if you’re good at the job until you’re hired.

[@kukuc96]

It is. That's under the "how much money you make for the company" part.

[@robertagren9360]

The value of an employer is if you are loved by many employers. This include your own parents for some reason able to say you are such a sweetheart and hardworking. Or for the fact no, they never needed your help since those who need the most will not have time find it.

[@jjrang1]

I worked at a private university in financial aid. I watched the federal Pell grant (free money) and state grants (more free money) basically double in around 8 years. Along with more and more grants and scholarships, yet the costs still always just barely was above that. Basically schools switched to focusing on getting poor kids in, and keeping them, so they could keep subsidized money from fed, state, and loans. Less about actually teaching, more about number of students they could keep and still keep 6 year graduation rates acceptable

[@Greenlink01]

Worth pointing out is the fact that people with an education improve their understanding of the world around them by honing their critical thinking, problem solving ability, and general ability to learn new things. The focus of a degree has always centered on earning potential post education, but there is quality of life improvement that comes with that education, even if it isn't solely related to income or tangible ownership. I'd be willing to bet most people that receive a higher education don't regret the journey because it has made them a more well-rounded person with an improved ability to withstand bias, misinformation, and enjoy life. It takes a greater understanding to realize more money won't make you happier.

[@W81Researcher]

Actually...a lot of college graduates don't remember most of what they learned.

[@W81Researcher]

And you just implied that a college degree makes you more well rounded. Actually being smart and studying hard makes you that.

[@Aeom_333]

You haven’t been poor if you think money doesn’t make someone happy

[@W81Researcher]

@@Aeom_333 More Money

[@SusiesRepeat]

I am so sick of hearing the “well rounded” bullsh#t, read a book if you want well roundness.

[@FableTheWolf]

I just love all the debt I put myself into for a dusty piece of paper that has never been used. Being unable to get a job in your field after everything you sacrificed for that "guarentee" is the worst part about all of this. Those who didn't go to uni are better off than me because they didn't put themselves into debt and they have those extra years of working experience I don't, because I spent that time in a classroom instead that ended up not mattering.

[@williamelliott9754]

What kind of degree did you get?

[@Novastar.SaberCombat]

Nothing beats experience. Oh, except for nepotism, cronyism, and happenstance; those beat out experience without even rolling the dice, lol.

[@comochinganconesto]

You have a skill! You don't have a piece of paper... that you can burn and it won't make a difference! You know how to learn and teach yourself! That's the skill!

[@chrisj320ac3]

I fully believe that ivy league is corrupt and it's all connections now, most of the high up earners don't actually have the skills needed, just look at all the high level failures that continue to happen. Our entire system is corrupt and needs to be addressed.

[@Namari12]

Don't despair, that degree might end up useful in ways you don't even know. I graduated in 2009 directly into the Great Recession and didn't use my degree at all for ~7 years, was in a job that didn't even begin to require a degree. Then I got offered an office job (because I had a college degree and the other applicants didn't, it put me ahead even though the subject I studied wasn't relevant to the job) and it launched me into a career where, while I don't use exactly what I learned in school, having the well-rounded education that one can get in college has served me extremely well.

[@DamianJablonski-li2rw]

We’ve somehow managed to create jobs that are so specialized you can be trained to do that job and only that job within a few days yet you need 4 years of school just to even apply to a position you could learn in a few days.

[@bryan753]

My career of choice (audiologist) requires postgraduate study so I didn't really have a choice. However, the biggest benefit of a master's degree wasn't just the technical skills I acquired, but the positive change it brought to my critical thinking and processing abilities. This was far more valuable

[@gaoda1581]

I’m not sure if many other states have them, but a “two year university” helped me graduate with no debt (and without the issues or flaws that come with traditional community colleges). I attended a branch campus of a state university, so all my credits transferred smoothly. I was able to live on campus in a dorm and earn academic scholarships. The school even had “study away” internships, so I ended up getting paid to study and tutor ESL in China. Definitely reconsider the concept of a “dream school” and look for alternative programs to graduate with reduced/no debt.

[@mylesprospero8105]

Why are universities/colleges usually registered as non-profit when they force you to pay for their gym membership, mandatory book fees, and other useless fees? 11:00 So much for non profit when they select candidates based on who would make their schools look better

[@computerguy1579]

Well-done video on the changes in our views on college. What I think the biggest problem has been with college is that it has been so pushed on my generation (Millennial) and Gen Z that the only way to be successful is to have a college degree to the point, as mentioned in this video, that the market of degree-holders is oversaturated, and it's resulted in so many people being saddled with so much student debt that it has prevented them from buying houses and starting businesses. I don't think universities are bad as a rule, but I do think they have had a disproportionate number of customers (students) from the idea that a college degree makes people wealthy. I think what we're seeing (and what we need) is the balance to return where college isn't pushed as a necessity. There are certain cases when it makes sense to get a college degree, (and usually it makes the most sense to go to a local university over an elite university or to go somewhere out of state -- these really should be under exceptional circumstances rather than the norm). Trades schools are a great way to go. And as certain fields get more popular and have higher demand for workers (such as in software engineering), more trade schools for these fields will open up. Right now, there are a large number of "coding bootcamps" that essentially are trade schools for software engineering. Also, getting experience in internships or in paid positions adjacent to what you want to get into help. I can't speak for all other fields, but in software engineering, the degree isn't necessarily a requirement, but it does hold weight in getting someone in for an interview. However, we also consider work experience and bootcamps. In our interviews we give tests based on whether we're hiring an entry-level engineer or a senior engineer where we actually determine which candidate we want to go with. I've had people that only have work experience or did a coding bootcamp that have done excellent and beat out people who have an impressive academic background. However, there are many people that believe that taking some courses online to learn how to write basic functions and classes prepares them for working as a software engineer without learning that software engineering is more than just learning a given programming language but is more about understanding systems, how they communicate, how they should be designed, security considerations, etc and that the language is the tool to translate those requirements into reality. I know the big question that seems to come up is the idea of not getting hired because you don't have experience, but you can't get experience because you can't get hired. The reality is that if you're looking for work experience, then you don't plan to start off as a software engineer. You'll typically start off in something like QA (where you manually test the software the engineers on your team are developing) working with engineers on a team. From QA, you'll typically work into something like automation test engineer (where you write code for automated tests) then into software engineering. In this process you're paid, building a network in the tech community so it's easier to find opportunities, and you're actually learning how the process works on the job and gaining work experience in the field. I've worked with many people who started in QA then moved into engineering. The point is that it takes time, a plan, and work to get into the career field you want. There is not necessarily one right way to do everything, and as a result, I think it's good to see the idea of college being the "one right way" going away because for many people college is absolutely the wrong choice to get ahead in a career. For many people it just results in a lot of debt with only a marginally better job that often has left that person in a worse place than had that person just worked and built out their experience.

[@gabrieljosue2451]

Although more people will look at trade jobs and be impressed by the earning potential, I doubt that it will become saturated since the average 17yo now days was not raised to enjoy manual labor. Every single person I know who works in the trades was raised outside, working with his dad on cars or building stuff with his grandfather, fixing his own bicycle and getting dirty. Most of todays young adults were raised in a bubble and their kids are being raised in an even tighter bubble. Yes trade jobs pay well but you quite literally bleed for that paycheck. It’s very demanding on your body and Im pretty confident that the ipad kids will quit 2 days after smashing a finger with a hammer or slipping on mud at a construction site. Trade jobs are the extreme opposite of a comfortable office job and since so many people complain about those I don’t think there’s a chance they’ll enjoy an outdoor welding site in North Dakota

[@trumpetbob15]

While I agree completely regarding many trade jobs, especially those outdoors, the question to focus on is: can some white collar jobs mimic the best examples from the trades? I'd say yes. For example, you mentioned fixing cars. What is the difference between that and building/fixing computers for people? Do you really need a college education for that? I also think of the many white collar jobs where someone would spend years as an apprentice, such as accounting and even a general practitioner family doctor. Maybe my surgeon needs a dedicated college program, but the family doctor who today is mostly identifying possible symptoms and referring to those specialists? Why not let the old form of job-shadowing and on-site experience come back?

[@itsyezterday6350]

im 34, i have no degree, at 26 i started working in a car factory, and worked my way up to a leadership position by the time i turned 31, at 32 i got married bout a house own 4 cars and my wife and i almost clear 90k after taxes, i make a better living than about 75% of my friends that i graduated hs w/ and they went to college..

[@thinkinenglish4877]

One blue collar trade job would be fixing cell phones however apple has or is trying to make it impossible to get parts. I wonder if it's the case for other types of repair.

[@2bfrank657]

Also, those impressive numbers you sometimes see tradespeople bragging about are often the result of doing huge amounts of overtime. I'm more interested in finding out how much I can earn while working 40 hours a week (or perhaps even less).

[@CW91]

​@@trumpetbob15Office jobs are a whole different ballgame today. Employers want to hire a superstar right off the bat. It's so unlike trades job, where the first day of let's say an electrician, the newcomer is just standing beside his senior while the ropes are being taught. Office workers on the first day are already given the ticking timebomb of performance deadlines.

[@sacredcowmars]

If you live in california: go to an accredited cc for 2-3 years, then transfer to a UC, you save a ton of money and can still go to a really good school

[@lawrencewilliams4829]

More students need to hear this. You can transfer to a CSU for even less money too!

[@emilv.3693]

Yeah but what next

[@alexbob5209]

A job or a masters ​@@emilv.3693

[@Arri7979]

​@emilv.3693 - Use the connections you made during your undergraduate years to find a job or internship. Utilize your university career center to find opportunities or help with resume and interview prep. Apply for federal grants or fellowships that pay for your graduate school or early career aspirations. I think people are forgetting that going to a 4 year college or university isn't only about classes. It's about connections, networking, gaining transferable skills, and increasing your job potential with things beyond a "piece of paper". If people are going to a university and only coming out with a "piece of paper," then there were a lot of missed opportunities to pursue different things.

[@Blusmoon]

is csu as good as uc? @@lawrencewilliams4829

[@LydiaReneeDarling]

I think that the “do a trade!” rhetoric leaves out a) the incredible strain this has on the body (my uncle was a handyman and had to stop working but could never afford retirement) and b) it doesn’t change the systemic issues of lack of wage growth and quality jobs we saw in past generations. So many jobs now skirt around the benefits offered by employers in prior decades.

[@alandoak5146]

In-state tuition for an electrical engineering degree was easily the best investment I've ever made. And being a TA paid for my Master's degree.

[@wizzyno1566]

Engineering is a good degree though. Most teenagers "follow their dream" into some shitty arts degree with no practical use.

[@angelantayhua3096]

⁠​⁠@@wizzyno1566not really lol. I still haven’t met an arts or science student who hasn’t planned out what are they gonna do in the next 5 years with their degree (they usually plan for masters in a specific field or phds to stay in academia). Ironically, as an engineering student, it’s engineering majors who have no idea what they want to after graduating. Business students just want a white collar job. And everyone who is following their dreams without a plan are very well off.

[@zacharysilver911]

@@wizzyno1566Facts. I should have done engineering.

[@doujinflip]

I got my degree in sociology and now make six figures in cybersecurity; turns out humans are the weakest link in an information network, and it's really valuable how to influence users towards best practices.

[@Liz-wz8dh]

I really hope more and more companies drop college degree requirements. They also make it really hard to get out of an industry you hate after years of working in it. Not all skills are considered transferable by employers and I want to see more of them acknowledge that just surviving in some of these shitty industries for years proves you at the very least are able to hold things together and figure shit out.

[@comochinganconesto]

They won't, because without a college education a company can just tell you that they don't know if you have the skills and they will low ball you... that is... of course unless you work for a union that back up your claim that you have the skills and will fight like hell for you to earn what you are worth.

[@vulpixelful]

I agree, unless it's a field where formal training actually matters, obviously. But yes, most white collar skills are transferable and would require minimal on-the-job training to catch up.

[@viperrr6886]

Even if they do they still hire degrees over non degree people

[@Demopans5990]

@@comochinganconestoOnly problem is unions don't exist

[@comochinganconesto]

@@Demopans5990 They do, but not as prominent and powerful as they should be.

[@rc123theycallme]

I was an Army recruiter in the wake of the Great Recession from 2008 - 2015 in Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Indianapolis. A devastated Rust Belt. I myself am a college dropout that realized higher ed is a hustle and tried to relay this message to the kids I spoke with. Unfortunately, most of them told me college was worth it, as their parents took out second mortgages on their homes, and kids chose forever debt… I sometimes wonder about these families. The many hundreds of conversations at kitchen tables discussing skillsets and options other than college. I hope they’re well, but odds are they aren’t.

[@midnightflare9879]

I think the cause of this problem is the rise of bullshit jobs, that often require a degree for no reason other than prestige and status. Those jobs exploded over the last decades, and thus, fueling the degree arms race. This also explaned why professions famous for having a degree hard to get are unaffacted by these developments. You know, hospitals still need a single degree from their doctors.

[@ab5441]

There was always a social element at least in the US. You would make your money then send your kids to college. The promise of jobs was post gi bill and subsidies. They had to make up stuff to teach people and reasons why you need to go.

[@ISpitHotFiyaa]

There's been sort of an arms race with doctors too. Years ago you got your MD, did a year of internship, and then started practicing. Now they make you do a residency and sometimes fellowships depending on your desired specialty. Also, getting into medical school is tougher. The explicit requirements are a couple classes in bio, chem, and math. You could complete them in three semesters if you wanted to. But if you want to be a credible applicant then you really need a degree (which means eight semesters of undergrad more or less). And many applicants to medical school have masters degrees.

[@Pacemaker_fgc]

No profession has been unaffected. Even my chemical and electrical engineering classmates graduated to find no available work. We graduated from one of the top 10 universities in the United States. I had to do manual labor for a year before I got an engineering job through connections.

[@drmcfacekick8912]

One thing about trades (that is, no pun intended, a huge trade off) is the toll on your body going into a trade can have. The lifespan of working in a physically demanding trade is shorter than working a desk job (which also has physical risks, just different ones). Not necessarily good or bad, just another consideration that needs to be made.

[@doujinflip]

Right, you may not be broke that first decade or two, but you'll end up broke both ways by the end. Financial Independence Retire Early but medically unable to enjoy it 🔥 💸

[@christianp5486]

That was more true in the past than today. Modern power tools and safety standards make working in the trades less physically harmful.

[@merrymachiavelli2041]

I wonder though how that balances out with the benefits of physical fitness? Being very sedentary is pretty bad for you, to the extent that I'd imagine a relatively safe trade job without insane hours might confer a health benefit.

[@Kingofshapes]

The best way I've heard this put is, "Trades destroy your body but desk jobs destroy your soul."

[@spankeyfish]

@@merrymachiavelli2041 Lots of builders are fat. Construction machinery operators are notorious for it. The builder renovating the house next to me had pneumoconiosis. The lads that reroofed my garage used no PPE at all and took all the old sheeting away in a van, presumably cos their boss didn't tell them that it was asbestos. The lad doing my porch who was using a stonesaw with no PPE, his face covered in dust and his eyes streaming, insisted he was fine when I offered him the use of my respirator.

[@jmuench420]

The aversion to internal promotions has to be one of the things that's created the toxic and dysfunctional corporate culture that's become so prevalent at large, well-established companies over the past 40 years.

[@moneyobsessed]

they dont want peons breathing the same air of mbas or ivy graduates.

[@mnoxman]

My high school in rural MN in the 80s was obsessed that everyone graduate from college. You can't believe the backlash when I, as a student, said "All that creates is degree inflation. The practical result is that you need a PhD in Electrical Engineering to go 'would you like fries with that'.". Companies like Honeywell, and Medtronic require degrees for everyone even contractors.

[@LIVdaBrand]

Most people are sheep & say chicken bock😂😂

[@1krani]

Ah. Read that report from the Truman administration, did you?

[@marcmeinzer8859]

Agreed. The local gas company requires meter readers to have a degree. It’s beyond grotesque. But with my crappy education degree I could always find a teaching job usually in some inner city hell-hole. I got fed up and went into the trades first able seaman in the merchant marine, and then barber.

[@Enter54623]

@@1kraniwhich one?

[@1krani]

@@Enter54623 The one that said too many degrees would lead to "a workforce of highly-skilled cashiers" (or something like that), ergo the Truman admin decided not to provide financial aid towards college degrees.

[@ashuebot-tabi4449]

As a recent grad I've noticed a strange contradiction where all companies know degrees are hardly worth anything but still expect you to have it.

[@George_Bailey]

RIP to college students right now. It's a terrible investment at its current realized costs.

[@angelantayhua3096]

@@indrickboreale7381I did both

[@FictionHubZA]

I'd be I a worse position if I didn't go to college.

[@TommyMac]

That's a remarkably broad statement. What "current realized costs" are you using as your metric? What ROA formula are you using to make your determination? Where did you pull your figures from.....your ass?

[@Omniverse0]

@@FictionHubZA A lot of people are woefully uneducated because they didn't go to college. Every bit of knowledge compounds upon itself. The world is harder when you're ignorant af.

[@tabithan2978]

My daughter graduates from a small liberal arts college in May, she has a 6 figure job lined up. 🤷‍♀️

[@HighCRI]

College degrees are still relevant, there just has to be a strategy behind it and a lot of folks aren’t utilizing a strategy other than “I like this topic, imma major in it.” Unfortunately, a lot of advisors aren’t helpful either in that regard so people who don’t know continue not knowing until it’s too late. You need to be honing in on what kind of job you want and if the degree is ACTUALLY the best strategy for it. Is that field hiring? How plentiful are the jobs? Where are the jobs located? What degrees/training do most people working in that field ACTUALLY have? How long did it take them to get a job there? Do they actually do that type of work in their day-to-day? Is that work the type of work you want to do? Answer those questions and tons more before starting the path to a degree. Otherwise you’ll be setting yourself up for the same situation millions have found themselves in for decades.

[@Demopans5990]

Also be able to tell the state of the job market 4 years in advance.

[@golennironns8548]

Higher learning doesn't mean higher earning, experience is the way from that it is how you put yourself out there.

[@onebridge7231]

My advice to young kids thinking of working on Wall Street or for large bank. Skip business school and become an AI/ML engineer. Artificial Intelligence is taking jobs and other $150k jobs like Risk Management are being outsourced to India. Better yet, pick a different industry to work. I’ve been laid off twice in banking. It sucks.

[@6471917]

In my eyes, at the core of almost every one of HMW's videos, the problem is the same: there are too many people looking for a job, and there are too few people creating jobs.

[@CFlandre]

"Creating jobs" is incredibly hard without initial investment, with an even worse guarantee for financial return than employment. As a "job creator", you essentially have to find a problem (or create one), and then offer your services to fix said problem in exchange for money... or create a product that there's demand for, market it, and sell it. Not everybody is suited to these skills. Ironically, it's those people who are most able to take a financial risk on job creation that are LESS WILLING to do so. It's just not as simple as "starting a business" to receive money; we really have to talk about the use (and the velocity) of money in the economy if we're going to have an honest discussion about what the average person is capable of doing in the economy.

[@rayden54]

@@CFlandre I think most investments these days are more geared towards eliminating jobs. That story of being "the guy who repairs the robots that replaced him" works for that one guy. Not for the 100s they replaced.

[@Pacemaker_fgc]

All the jobs were liquidated to make shareholders and CEOs richer. Why hire enough people to do the job when you can make one person do a ton of overtime and pocket the rests’ salaries? American jobs didn’t go overseas or get taken by immigrants, they went into the pockets of rich psychopaths with more money than God whose only goal in life is inflating their egos by making number go up.

[@CFlandre]

@@rayden54Which wouldn't be a bad thing if the benefits of that automation worked to benefit the people who are most affected by it: the workforce. Instead, it's used to pad the wallets of the owners of business while cutting now unnecessary positions.

[@bluedragontoybash2463]

there are a lot of technology destroying jobs too

[@itshsilva]

From my personal experience, degrees are still very relevant if you want to migrate to a different country and have a visa... having a bachelor's or master's for this purpose is crucial.

[@lajoyalobos2009]

I predicted this is 2013. Everyone and their mama wanted to get a degree. A diamond is only valuable because of its rarity. If it becomes common, its value drops. Same goes for degrees.

[@Gnomezonbacon]

Diamonds are actually common. They're artificially kept rare.

[@swaggery]

Diamonds are very common.

[@Christopher_TG]

Which is actually a pretty apt analogy considering diamonds aren't even that rare.

[@ArtificialDjDAGX]

@@Gnomezonbacon I heard recently that that was once true, however then we used up all the high grade diamonds kept in storage, and now they're rare again. Sure, rough diamonds that are only fit for mining equipment or similar is likely common, but the stuff used for rings isn't. Though take my comment with a spoonful of salt, because this is just a game of telephone at this point and I haven't cared enough about the topic to do research on if what I heard was true or not XD

[@Justmonika6969]

I felt this myself. I complained to my parents who were trying to push me to get a degree that it seems like it's going to drop in value drastically. I went anyway and now my degree is worth less and I have debt now, nice.

[@christopherwaller2798]

In the UK there are a small but growing number of "degree apprenticeships" in professional fields such as engineering and town planning - basically these are work placements alongside part time study that will get you a degree after 5 years (for a school leaver with A Levels [what we have as a rough equivalent to an AP]) where you are paid a salary and have your tuition paid alongside. And during that time you will have built up practical experience and contacts.

[@manalarma962]

This is the path I love the most! In my utopian restructure of the education system, work experience + degrees (co-ops) or degree apprenticeships would be the new norm :)

[@thesimplediaryvlog]

It's interesting to see how things work in America, here in Germany it's completely different. People without qualifications are also employed here because we have a shortage of skilled workers, but they are paid much less. For example, when I graduated from university, I immediately got a permanent employment contract and am paid according to the collective bargaining agreement. This means that I earn several hundred euros more a month than my colleagues without a degree. In addition, Germany has a much lower unemployment rate among academics. In addition to these reasons, I think it is important to emphasize that education has its own value that cannot simply be acquired at work. Studying theories and science has broadened my horizons and made me a more mature, educated person. Education is always valuable and should be acquired in a community where reflection and discussion can take place. I don't regret anything and will even start a second degree next year alongside my work. Not because it makes me money, but makes me a knowledgeable person.

[@ClarkyClark]

I dropped out of college when i realized my job (aerospace mechanic) didn't require a degree and paid better than what i wanted to go into. I make 90ka year and Social Workers make maybe 50K. I have kids and as much as my passion lays in trauma therapy, it doesn't pay enough. So i dropped out and I've stayed in aerospace. It's not my dream, but in this economy i can't afford my dreams.

[@thelifewithnate]

But you can in the future! Once the job market gets better in 2025 and beyond, hopefully you can pursue that maybe as a side-gig? I'm in the same boat with my creative projects in cultural affairs and my main federal job. Dreams can't pay the bills yet sadly.

[@ClarkyClark]

@thelifewithnate indeed! Basically I'm waiting until my kids are grown. Then I won't have the financial urgency.

[@the_expidition427]

Saving this

[@ddwfw]

how do you learn how to be an aerospace mechanic?

[@ClarkyClark]

@kainickname getting an A&P license really makes you stand out. These can be done at most community colleges, but check to see where the nearest classes are held. However, big manufacturing will often hire entry level without any experience. That was how I got in. Then I went through 2 months of training, paid, and an additional 2 months of on the job training. If you really want in, apply.

[@AlexDanielCPhT]

I went to a medical transcription trade school in 2000 (the now-defunct Metropolitan College of Tulsa). It took 9 months and cost $3,000 (paid for by the GI Bill because I'm a Navy veteran). It got me a radiology transcription career at a county hospital in California, with all the gov't job security that comes with. In 2023, just after qualifying for pension, and knowing that medical transcription was now almost completely obsolete, I enrolled in a pharmacy technician trade school (Martinez Adult Education) to find a post-retirement career. I went from first day of school to PTCB-certified pharmacy technician in exactly 6 months and 1 week, for a total tuition cost of a $500 deposit that was refunded upon successful completion of the course. I'm not rich, but I am comfortable in both mind and wallet. And I feel good knowing that I made this life of mine without any help at all from university. I never had to go into debt, and I never took a single class that wasn't relevant to the field I was hoping to get hired into.

[@bluedragontoybash2463]

Glad your gamble paid off

[@the_expidition427]

Get out of Cali. the gambles are only beginning

[@robertedwards2959]

I'm amazed at how many people complain about how much colleges cost, but never think to utilize the GI Bill or Tuition Assistance.

[@Silver-Silvera]

@@robertedwards2959Me, with a physical disability: "Why didn't I just join the army? Stupid me!"

[@robertedwards2959]

@@Silver-Silvera well you're stupid enough to think my comment was directed towards you.

[@cmdr1911]

An engineering degree paired with a blue collar trade (started as a field engineer in the oil field) gave me a huge head start against my peers. I am about 15 years ahead of my peers, but my field experience is what pays. The degree just opened doors earlier. I also didn't have student loans. I only use my degree today to manage my engineers.

[@nhitc6832]

I work at a medical device company and there is an engineer manager at my company who doesnt know squat about the products that we manufacture. Every time there is a problem with our products, he always asks around if anyone knows how to fix the problems lol. Even the production leaders shake their head and wonder how he became engineer at the first place.

[@legolew2336]

I got a Bachelor's degee in IT, a degree one would think opens lots of doors. I got the degree in 2022, right when the implosion of tech jobs took place. I am currently in a job that is not IT because either the IT job requires experience that I am unable to get or is a sales job that doesn't guarantee that I will actually get IT experience. It is genuinely painful to feel that the peice of paper, is nothing more than that. Edit: For those wondering if I built my resume for IT, I did. I listed programming languages I am proficient with, the certification I obtained to gain some skills, and different aspects of previous jobs I had to show I have analytical and logic driven thinking. I struggled to get into an IT job even with this set up.

[@comochinganconesto]

You did not pay for the paper! For fucks sake! You paid for the skills! You paid to be taught the skills by people that had experience! You then take said skills and experience and get on-the-job experience! Compared to you, someone without a degree and without experience trying to get an IT job is not going to be as attractive as a hire. Am I getting through to you at all? Just so that you don't think I'm talking out my ass, I'm an Applications Development Manager, and no I would not hire someone with out a college degree unless they had at least 4 years of development experience and a ton of projects under their belt, and even then, their code if often very linear and redundant and often needs to get optimized. Nothing against them, they just don't have the knowledge to create something that is easy to read and easy to change.

[@stevenholmes8854]

As an IT manager I scan first for the skills I am looking for. The degree is only a discriminator if I have two capable applicants.

[@CW91]

Did you build a software portfolio to show in your resume or interview?

[@legolew2336]

@@comochinganconesto This is mostly a matter of perspective, in your side, of course I have the advantage over someone without the degree, and my chances to be hired is significantly higher. Where I am coming from is that from my end, the moment the doors were supposed to be open, they looked like they got closed. I went through my school, job fairs, and looked through my resume and cover letter multiple times and I only barely squeaked through to getting a white collar job. In theory yes, I have a higher chance of getting in. In practice, and my perspective, I ended up spending four years to get the degree to be told I need the degree and 3 more years of experience for an entry level position.

[@YungLeanSippa9937]

Did you try to get internships? Did you build a network of people who were also in the field? How many applications have you put out? If its less than 500 and you expect to not have to move, you are a dumbass. I hear these types of stories all the time, and it’s usually due to the person not understanding how to play the game. Your career starts once you entire university, not after you finish it.

[@BokeemWoodbeezy]

I work two jobs as a Barback and Customer Service in Retail. I have experience and an MBA. I was laid off last year. You need a tangible skill to make it nowadays. I have been teaching myself coding the past few years, mainly focusing on backend, and will begin studying for CCNA, then build a few virtual labs and projects. I plan to pivot into devops, network, system admin, type roles in the next few years. Probably starting with help desk. However, I will have IT and bartending skills and will always have the ability to make income. My MBA essentially was useless, at least at this point in my career. I leave it off my resume. FYI - I don’t like sales. Client facing roles are fine.

[@GamersBay]

True Story: I earned far more money when I was a high school drop out working in restaurants in the 90s then I ever did after getting college educated in the IT field in the early 2000's. Unless you're pursuing a career in healthcare, your degree is essentially worthless today. I earned $25 an hour on average waiting tables in restaurants, while after getting college educated I ended up unemployed and unable to find work for several years. The economy dictates reality, and a degree is not going to change that reality. A degree is not going to save you when the work dries up and no one is hiring. Likewise, employers care more about your work experience, capability to do a job, and overall work ethic, than they do some worthless piece of paper.

[@MoneyInScope]

How Money Works - king of the 5 minute intro! Love it! It's true, occupations such as doctor should require the appropriate schooling due to the risk to human life and the laser focus on the specific skills required to keep humans alive. On the other hand, most corporate roles should not require a degree, especially if a candidate has the appropriate experience and portfolio via real-world corporate experience. I have worn many hats in my career (analyst, graphic designer, process engineer, PR, business management, governance, etc), and there is no *single* degree that prepares you for the rapid changes of the current corporate roles out there. Only the end results matter, and the requirements are typically far from laser-focused.

[@Mulerider4Life]

No one talks about a physically worn out body of a blue collar worker at 70 years old. Back, Knee, Joints, are just a few.

[@robertagren9360]

Memory since they have brain damage by sleeping by the clock.

[@amicaaranearum]

A lot of the people pushing the trades are ignoring how rough these jobs are on your body. My husband has been doing building repairs and maintenance for over 30 years, and he can feel his body breaking down. You’d better save for retirement, because it’s not a job you can do in old age.

[@BlackHoleSpain]

What? Do companies over there hire people over 35 ?!?!?!?

[@seriousandy6656]

everyone is pretty worn out by the time they're 70 no?

[@Mulerider4Life]

@@seriousandy6656 Nah. No way.

[@thomasb.smithjr.8401]

College degrees can sometimes send the wrong signal to an employer - especially if obtained at a 'name' or 'status'-y school. They query, ' why should we hire/train this individual if they're likely to jump ship if they don't like it or leave if/when a better opportunity arises ? '

[@selialos]

From a german perspective (free eduction, yay), it's wild to see how many people are willing to take on that much debt for college tuition, instead of just taking on training and working your way up from there. Even with (almost) free universities, most people here rather opt to directly enter the job market.

[@NoMoreCrumbs]

Germany has labor laws and regulations that Americans cannot even dream of. In the US you're lucky if you get 8 or 9 days of vacation a year and most of us have no sick pay. Our minimum wage is still around €7 an hour. It's hell here

[@ghostmaster3963]

no. More people study in germany than do a aprentinceship

[@pieterfaes6263]

The video also mentioned significant issues with trying to work your way up. The cost (if internship), low chance of reward/promotion and difficulty in the alternative of finding work elsewhere because of the lack of a degree whilst having experience.

[@bjhale]

Germany has a much better apprenticeship system than the U.S. Also, while I have issues with your social class-based education system, the Hauptschules and Realschules also probably help prepare students to enter the work force better than U.S. high schools.

[@robertbeisert3315]

You assume there are trainings and low-level jobs available in the US

[@stevenbaker2736]

Joined the army, got a small mos that put me in a position to do a job that I wasn’t trained for and had to learn on the fly. Got out and got a job starting at ~$70k that doesn’t require a degree until well after $100k

[@SiriusB88]

In my home country, education is free for any citizen. The view outside countries such as the US might differ in the sense that becoming a graduate does not require an astronomical financial investment (there are private universities here as well, of course). Therefore, the only thing required from you as a student is mere effort and dedication. It is for this reason that college education is still significantly valued. Another factor to consider is the infamous ROI. I belong to the social sciences, and I simply like to study and learn, as simple as that may sound. Few people here go to university expecting to earn huge salaries. And no, my home country is not Cuba.

[@M-tl4xt]

This really only applies to the US, and/or only to certain easy degrees like art or economy. The number of people enrolling in my STEM subject in my European country is so low, that universities are refunding part of the already meager fees we're paying to encourage enrollment. This is made even worse by unrelated companies (consultancy, IT and finance) coming in and scooping up most available talent by offering unrelated, better paying jobs, meaning that of those few who do graduate in my subject, only a fraction will actually be available for relevant positions where the corresponding skills are needed

[@seiwarriors]

I don't think so, in many countries in Europe a bachelor/master degrees are becoming more common since most EU countries offer free or nearly free degrees. For example in Ireland or in the UK we have around 50% educational attainment and I imagine in many EU countries is often except for Germany though.

[@M-tl4xt]

@@seiwarriors read again. I said in the US *OR* in certain easy degrees. the increase is due to lazy people getting easy degrees because they can't find a job anyway.

[@duellinksantimeta7636]

@@seiwarriors we have a good system in germany, where you can get hands on experience directly out of school. It’s called "Duale Berufsausbildung" (dual vocational training). You work for 3-4 weeks and go to a trade school for 2 weeks (but it can also be differnt, for example work for 3 days and school for 2 days). The more demanding the training, the longer the training period. It can vary from 2 years, 3 years and 3,5 years. I‘m an electrician and had to do 3,5 years. There are also ways to get higher degrees outside of academia and they are also greatly accepted. Going to university is still a thing here (I‘m studying something in engineering myself), but it’s not the only option and getting into university in the first place is harder. You always need higher education before you can enter an university.

[@jacquesz9916]

What subject do you study?

[@justinmellem8964]

Im 24 and currently looking at buying land and building my own house on it with my fiance. Considering I'm only a 2nd year electrical apprentice, I think I've made the correct career choice.

[@Boblol126]

Which state?

[@justinmellem8964]

@@Boblol126 Idaho

[@Boblol126]

⁠@@justinmellem8964W housing market over there I hear

[@theaether4009]

It’s a burden to hear the “alternative” pipeline that leads to debt and the same likelihood of employment, but for different jobs. Even though some companies are getting rid of their standards, it’s not the brightest idea. They will rarely see someone with the same experience as someone with proper training, which is the purpose of the degree. It’s like people think there’s always a slew of experienced blue collar workers that hate college graduates showing up on the job regardless of the role. Can’t get the experience unless you’re qualified to begin with, right? Waiting for a Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates who is brilliant and dropped out is pretty ridiculous.

[@Hession0Drasha]

Good. Getting a degree that teaches you nothing your employer needs, but "prooves you can learn" is one of the stupidest things, society has asked us to swallow. The employer has to teach you to do the job in either case. Not even letting people in the door, because they don't have an arbitrary peice of paper, was really unfair.

[@logixindie]

Definitely a good thing that more people are realizing this. It would also help those who actually need degrees for their careers.

[@T.O.E.C]

just don't get your degree in america it's a scam get it in France

[@W81Researcher]

A degree doesn't prove you can learn. That is for the top students or those that studied a lot. But there are overs and unders.

[@specialK312]

I think its safe to say that the only occupations that should require a degree are in medicine and engineering and that is pretty much all. I honestly do not think a law degree is necessary for attorneys as long as they pass the bar. Every other job can be learned on the job, period.

[@robertagren9360]

I want to know how you came to the conclusion engineering need a degree. It is after all not a standard degree of knowledge. A house constructor is not going to build the house in any other way but that is considered a trade skill.

[@reecesaliba7036]

@@robertagren9360 An engineer and a tradesmen is 2 different things. Engineers spend most of their day designing things by applying mathematics and scientific theories to producing real world items. Degrees for engineers are needed just like you need degrees for scientists, there is alot of underpinning knowledge and understanding required to do the job.

[@_Ekaros]

Maybe throw accounting there, or at least sufficient certification... Most jobs do not require degree... And in Engineering not all things do. Like you could do electronics or software without one. But having one is quite helpful as information is relevant often.

[@jfroines]

It's always bugged me that we tend to only talk about the value of college in terms of future employment, salaries, and all that. There is so much of a positive impact on your future BRAIN and mental abilities from going to college, regardless of your future job and salary. University teaches you how to think about things from the most basic fundamental assumptions up tot he top level details. It teaches you how to organize your own thoughts.

[@cherrycoyote55]

Then what the hell was the point of public schooling? Seems a lot like they're trying to teach us what to think, not how.

[@Whoawait]

When you're a kid, it's easier to absorb what to think than how to think. Kids brains aren't developed enough for the critical thinking of university-level academics. I'd strongly argue that you're talk *what* in public school and you're taught *how* and *why* in college.

[@jfroines]

I learned plenty of stuff in K-12, I'm just saying that getting the somewhat constant mental exercise of university for 4 years was very important in developing my ability to reason through things from scratch without help. I developed confidence, determination, and mental organization far beyond what I would have if I had gone right from high school into the workforce.

[@andrewgoss6486]

If colleges and universities are supposed to make people how to think and organize their thoughts, then how come a large percentage of sheep with degrees are complete idiots who lack basic logic and reasoning skills?

[@kennyberger5377]

I have a general studies degree. The Army didn't care what my degree was in, so I didn't either. I have my dream civillian job. I think I only got it because I worked in a relevant field all through college and had Army officer on my resume.