HSING YI - History, Differences & Similarities with Wing Chun - Kung Fu Report

Back in the day, Shing Yi fighters used to be very prestigious in China and was a synonym for a good reputation. Nowadays, this martial art style has lost a lot of its essence but in today's Kung Fu Report I'd like to discuss with you one of my favorite styles, HSING YI! Also, we will see how it has some common points with Wing Chun and Kung Fu. Let's check it out!
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[@robjohnson8662]

I studied xing yi under the late Sifu Joseph Dunphy. Class was 3 hours. For 90 minutes each class we stood san ti. The rest was pi chuan. And for the 1st year this was our training. I was the only to last and almost 30 years later I am glad I went thru the old style training. It served to provide the proper foundation for tai chi and ba gua. Xing yi is still my base. If you want to learn to fight learn xing yi. I can't keep xing yi students no one has the discipline for the hard training I went thru and which I put students thru.

[@williambreazeal387]

There were 3 major tournaments held in China during from 1928 to 1933. In the first, the dominant fighter was Gu Ru Zhang, a Bei Shaolin (Northern Shaolin) fighter won (Bei Shaolin is not Song Shaolin). In the second a fighter from the Nanjing Guoshuguan won. He studied Guoshuguan Bei Shaolin, but was best known for his Shuai Jiao. The third tournament was won by a Mei Hua Tanglangquan fighter. The Zhu brothers participated in the first and second tournaments and placed in the first class of competitors. The most successful of the brothers was know for mixing Xinyiquan and Western Boxing. The most remarkable top competitor was perhaps a 41 year old Yin Baguazhang fighter that placed in the first group in the first and second tournaments. The fighters known for killing and or crippling the most competitor were Han Huachen (Luotan Bajiquan) and Ma Yingtu (Piguazhang). They were both trainers in the warlords armies and were pulled from the tournament before the final selection. Also pulled from the tournament was Guo Changsheng (Heyi Tongbeiquan) who gained fame for being unhittable and for knocking his opponents off the Leitai with single hits.

[@808frontline]

Did Hung Gar guys ever win tournaments back then?

[@giuseppienad2632]

@@808frontline no recorded documents that I know of

[@808frontline]

@@giuseppienad2632 I heard of Choy Li Fut being the only style out of China to travel to Thai land and defeat the Thai boxers.

[@williambreazeal387]

The large national tournaments run by the Nanjing Institute were graded similar to the old Imperial military exams. The individual match ups were decided on by the people running the tournament. The successful participants were put into one of three categories. You could think of it being similar to gold, silver, and bronze medals. For the 3 national tournaments, there are no recorded placements in the first category (gold) for the southern styles. There are records of at least one formidable southern fighter (literary style master from Jiangsu), but he lost a critical match to one of the finalists in the Hangzhou tournament. The loss wasn't attributed to any deficiency in the system he practiced, but rather an inability to adapt to the tactics employed by the winner in a lively manner. As an aside, the winners of the first tournament were often selected as instructors for the Guoshuguan and the first class placements in the second tournament in Hangzhou were all students of the Guoshuguan curriculum.

[@Ratva666]

@@808frontline Bruce Lee said that too.

[@gaylonmcdowell3823]

I studied Hsing-I Chuan for a year with Grandmaster Wai Lun Choi in Chicago in 1993-94. I left because of work and school. The style is extremely powerful and I think it’s one of the best combat ready styles in Chinese martial arts. It’s very direct with no fluff. The power generation is second to none. I wish I had finished learning the system.

[@ten5487]

My older brother who was a Chicago Policeman took me to Wai Lun Choi's Tai Chi School for an interview. I must have been about 12 or 13 at the time. Master Choi asked my brother if he would like a demonstration of chi. My brother is 6'4 and a ex-Marine. I can not explain what happened but Master Choi used two fingers of each hand and smoothly struck my brother under the arm and the ribcage. My brother was launched across the room and into a file cabinet. It was almost unreal. True Story.

[@gaylonmcdowell3823]

@@ten5487 - Master Choi was the best martial artist I have ever seen in person.

[@randyclere2330]

This was an incredible video! Your depth of knowledge & practice is complete and powerful!!

[@Viewpoint314]

Very good video. I heard the same stories in 1982 from Wang Kiu who was a private student of Ip Man. Wng Kiu preferred the spear over the long pole. Many of the sayings and empty hand techniques from spear fighting match exactly those from the Wing Chun system. Wang Kiu said their was a close relationship between Xing-Yi and Wing Chun. He also said that 10 years of Tai Chi and 3 years of Xing-Yi makes you a pretty good fighter.

[@joanstone6740]

10 years Tai chi still afraid to leave the house three years xing yi kill a man

[@wutan_nj]

Love this episode and your chennel. Sharing one thought of mine regarding XingYi's extinction, is that even the most basic XingYi foundation training begins in post and drill trainings, the content is still way too deep for beginners to comprehend. If one is talented and dedicated enough, and fortunate enough to learn under a good XY teacher, he can maybe grasp some understanding in the art of XY in 2-3 or more years... With that said, for the years I've trained in Bajiquan, I've realized the similarities between Baji and XingYi. in fact, I feel that Bajiquan's advantage is it's procedural training curriculums in which, it provides a clear training roadmap into XingYi. When training Baji in the beginning, everything starts big and eventually reduce the frame scale, and looking more and more like XingYi.

[@siwal69]

After I watched this I went and looked at lots of Hsing Yi Videos and found it to be awesome Thank you so much

[@areitomusic]

For someone who is not an expert on Hsing I, you sure know a lot about it. My teacher is from Taiwan, and he told me exactly what you said 35 years ago. The Spear theory is on point. He also said that the linking set and 12 Animals come from the 5 Elements Sets. Great video.

[@peterfitzgerald6095]

Been doing Hsing I for close 20 years now. I still remember sitting in San Ti at the very beginning, then the first element for 3 years before moving on to the next. Takes a lot of patience to learn the art. Thing is after going through all the elements, there are further post exercises to be learnt after.

[@Lon3wolf7]

Does Adam Chan reach Having I?or just wing Chun?I like Hsing I as well

[@joanstone6740]

Santi is not a sitting posture lol

[@peterfitzgerald6095]

@Joan Stone sitting as in sitting still, not moving. Not literally sitting down.

[@imbradtaylor]

@@joanstone6740 sinking into is what I believe he's referring to.

[@iflotaichi]

Xing Yi has a very well thought out and put together training progression when compared to other internal styles, (many of which assumed students gone through this kind of training before starting.) You start off with San Ti and other standing. Then there are 10 excersices to prepare you for the five elements fist, once you learn that there are partner drills for each of the five fists then partner linking forms then sparring, the partner linking forms are also in a progression, first teaching distancing, then angles then advanced concepts. Once you learn the five elements fist, this template carries over to the weapons, 10 excersizes>>5 elements >>linking form>>partner drills partner linking forms>> sparring. Also after the five elements is learned you can learn an animal form or two based on your body type and fighting preferences, but they are advanced. It's a very well structured template that takes you from begginer to using internal whole body power. The mechanics are based on the physiology of walking and the 6 harmonies, especially the first 3 harmonies or wan san hei. Xing yi is effective for fighting even with gloves on. It also has a lot of internal work, chi/kung nei gong type practices. Some of the xing yi concepts are extend to the extremities, fight like your hair is on fire, eat your opponent, eat everything your opponent gives you(hands fingers arms etc.)

[@cioran1754]

Interesting, saw Steve Cotter demo'ing some of the animal forms. Would you know if there are any experienced coaches practicing in Ireland ?

[@iflotaichi]

@@cioran1754 hello. I don't know of anyone else about that does xing yi, I learned in the states and france. Theres a serious lad in belfast, Anto Thompson, that teaches I think, but I don't know him personally.

[@jamesb.4289]

Fascinating knowledge on the history!

[@ziggydog5091]

I LOVE Hsing I ! Thank you I do not do Wing Chun but I have done Taiji, Hsing I, and Bagua a long time. I am subscribed to your channel because the concepts you teach really help me understand how to apply my art, thank you sincerely.

[@ambulocetusnatans]

Same here. Chen style is my main thing, but this guy and a couple other youtubers are definately worth listening to.

[@AR-qn9mq]

And again, me too.

[@AR-qn9mq]

I haven't found an internal arts channel that can touch Adam's knowledge and content

[@batmonkey]

Hai Yang's channel has an amazing amount of information about Xing Yi and the internal arts

[@ziggydog5091]

Thank you, love Hai Yang too. 😊

[@azlaroc12]

One of your best yet Adam. Right on.

[@rich212123]

Excellent explanation of this internal style. Thanks for sharing.

[@XingYi1974]

XY is not a linear style. It relies on angles, has quite a few curved movements in it, and progresses to a more bagua-style footwork on high levels (PanGen and even some animals, and other exercises.)

[@willms7173]

A xing yi instructor, and a bagua instructor agreed to share techniques, and to pass it on to their students. Neither instructor were able to gain an advantage, during a match between the two of them, which led them to combine some of the techniques between the two styles. Although the combining of techniques between the two styles probably only occurred within their particular lineages.

[@benjaminbecker8508]

Awesome!

[@massimilianoaitoro2399]

Very very thank's you so much, Sifu Adam Chan

[@igaluitchannel6644]

Thanks for the excellent explanation!

[@michaelharris6153]

great vid! Love Xingyi! So awesome

[@benjaminforster2529]

I'm learning a lot about Kung Fu /Wushu from Sifu Adam. Thank you guys for the channel.

[@geneparmesan6145]

good vid man. I saw huge improvements in my Ving tsun after yrs of hsingi....post training is how we started as well...it was Ed Hampton in Blacksburg va.

[@ericstrickland9866]

Excellent history and background, you shared

[@EvanTateMusic]

I'm very happy to have found this video. I've been training Wing Chun for about 10 years now, and I'm an assistant instructor in my club. I've recently decided to re-visit my interest in Hsing I. I had no idea about the similarities between Hsing I and Wing Chun. I'm totally excited now! :-) As you say, it has been very difficult to find anyone in person (not just online) to learn it from. I did eventually find a school in my city. I'll be visiting them soon and hope to learn well.

[@ruiseartalcorn]

Very interesting! Many thanks :)

[@synmalice9872]

Great material about Hsing Yi. I learned a lot about the real Hsing Yi. I've always wanted to learn this martial art because it's simple, effective and, in my opinion, beautiful. Unfortunately, no one in Poland teaches it, few people are interested in it, there are no good teachers. Greetings from Poland.

[@shujiling213]

Awesome thank you ❤

[@Fuk_Xin]

My sifu used to sparingly 'insert' Hsing Yi in our Wing Chun training...

[@thomasbayer2832]

Awesome content! Sifu, could you please create some videos with Hsing Yi elements? Maybe how to integrate it some parts in Wing Chun?

[@pascal0868]

Finding a good xing yi teacher is harder than a good wing chun teacher. If you’re looking for good stuff and live in the UK please check out Paul Rogers and Alex Kozma. I’ve trained long time ago with Alex he was real good. Lack of local teachers and circumstances prevented me continuing but Xing Yi always remains in my heart. I now do Wing chun. Comparison between a machine gun and a bazooka is very apt.

[@pascal0868]

I would add I spent a lot of time in standing post training including san ti posture. Without learning connectedness you have nothing

[@clacicle]

Who did Alex Kozma learn XingYi from?

[@QuentinKLEau]

@@pascal0868 Three cases: 1. the teacher got his level by a lot of practice and "feeling", therefore he just wants you to follow his curriculum. Not very efficient and indeed most of the time you learn nothing. 2. many traditional masters are just testing your dedication. If you manage to endure enough time, most of the time one year, they will tell you how to work postures. 3. Incompetent teacher. Nowadays, the majority of teachers are incompetent in fact.

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

@@QuentinKLEau oof, so there is no teacher that actually makes you spar? Oh man, things really did change a lot. It wasn't like this, i swear

[@Freddy19677]

Check James Carss he is the best in Europe

[@gematriot]

❤ Superb. Thanks.

[@stefanschleps8758]

Thank you for bringing some attention to Hsing Yi Ch'uan. In our school each teacher brings what he can to the table. As long as the end result is combat effective, the conditioning practice is up to the student. Having said that we do maintain a strict adherence to stillness training. You won't have Hsing Yi unless you train the mind as well as the body. So lots of holding pi chuan and tsun chuan. I practice standing every day, and have found Hsing Yi to be easy to learn, and easy to teach. It is practical and direct. I have confidence that in another hundred years other teachers will be passing it down as we are today. Every fighter can benefit from Hsing Yi training. All the best to you. Laoshr #60 Ching Yi Kung Fu Association

[@imbradtaylor]

So glad you are promoting this style. I do Yiquan. I wish there were a Xingyiquan Sifu nearby. I may have to settle for online training.

[@hbc511]

You do I-Chuan which is just the standing. So you do it just for health. May I ask ?

[@imbradtaylor]

@@hbc511 Yiquan is not "just standing", however that is the where I am at in my progression. My Sifu had introduced movement into my training before I moved away, but until I have access to him or another instructor I will work on that. I do other Internal Martial Arts as well though and Yiquan is complimentary to them.

[@stephenlee5718]

Adam chan your insight into Chinese kung fu is commendable and described things in logical explanations. Too often these days our cultures fighting art has been accused of being useless against so and so.keep up the good work.

[@kidyusei413]

Lol the way Master Chan said “Please don’t quit” if you find a good Xing Yi guy. I’ve actually been doing Wing Chun and somehow found myself curious about Xing Yi for some unexplained mystical reason

[@edkushnerick2090]

Sun Hsing I practitioner here myself, I got extremely lucky in finding a good teacher. Been there for 12+years

[@classicalvingtsunwatford3369]

Great video - same situation concerning post standing prevails in Ving Tsun - minimum of one year daily training in Sil Nim Tao is the classical standard. System is given over far too quickly these days with disastrous results……

[@geldeddonkey7320]

I do a Mantus Style over twenty years) and most of the ideas , hits , energy and stance with Adam are common. I really like Adam teaching style , many of his comments remind me what I have learn’t.I walk on the beach and coordinate my hand movements with my feet and breathing , turning it into a a Ghee gong . I really think it has strengthened what I have learnt.🇦🇺

[@benjaminbecker8508]

Xing Yi is awesome! ❤

[@peterkhew7414]

Xingyi's 5 elements fist looks similar to western boxing. Given that western boxing has its roots in fencing, it has some parallels with Xingyi's origin in spear fighting. 1) Jab: 劈拳 2) Straight cross: 崩拳 3) Backfist: 钻拳 4) Hook: 炮拳 5) Uppercut: 横拳

[@carlosdeleon7475]

Pose training works well for me both with my martial arts and my health in general. Basics, posing through each step of the movements, quickly finds the weakness bin the muscles. Then by posing you gain strength

[@the.demarcation.problem]

Adam have you read the making of a butterfly by Sifu Phillip Starr. He's also got a few other books, Martial mechanics and one on Fajin. Thank you for sharing your knowledge! 🙏

[@Moneyserved]

I loved hearing this. I am up to 20 minutes on a single pose. I am so lucky.

[@lelionnoir4523]

Also, you should check out Mushin Martial Culture, for good modern Xingyi.

[@BaritoneUkeBeast4Life]

I have been a Patron member and online student of Sifu Byron of Mushin Martial Culture for about 6 months now and really enjoying his lessons on Hebei Xingyi and Liang style Baguazhang.

[@lelionnoir4523]

@@BaritoneUkeBeast4Life Joined in January too , did you ?

[@BaritoneUkeBeast4Life]

@@lelionnoir4523 Yes, as a matter of fact I did! It’s an awesome channel, the Hua Jin Learning Program. I’m learning a lot.

[@lelionnoir4523]

Hope to catch you in a Hangouts session. Which time zone are you in ?

[@BaritoneUkeBeast4Life]

@@lelionnoir4523 EST US , so far I only did one hangout, and it was a bit awkward as I was still a very new member with nothing yet to report as far as my training was concerned plus I was the only student that showed up. But Sifu was very nice and offered lots of good tips and answered some questions I had at the time regarding training. What is your timezone and when do you plan on attending the hangout next?

[@Robert-rl7rd]

What he said at the beginning about most martial artists back then trained full time is a HUGE difference to what is the norm today. Aside from boxers, MMA fighters most practitioners of Chinese Martial arts today are just hobbyists.

[@fitzhugh2542]

I practiced Xingyi and Bagua and although I enjoyed it, next to boxing I really couldn't see myself using any of the Xingyi punches in a real fight. HOWEVER when I found out that Xingyi's forms are the basis for the qiang/spear forms....that blew my mind. Everything that I had learnt made sense now. So for me personally, Xingyi and even Bagua really shine when we're talking about weapons (have you ever seen Bagua hook swords?? omg) and less so with unarmed hand-to-hand combat, especially when we pit it against a martial art like boxing or muay thai. That goes the same for wing chun and baat cham do.

[@LunaticReason]

If you know about any other styles could you do videos about the brief history of those as well?

[@MsMadam-zo5wz]

Do a live q & a Sifu Adam.

[@johnmurnane1184]

I have practices Hsing Yi for many years, but with the addition of more lateral movement around an opponent to avoid their stong points and reach their weak points. There is not substitute for the power Hsing Yi provides. The structure requires considerable training, which is boring to many, but is critical for generating the power from your core. You must be straight, relaxed but connected. Your hip joints must be rolled forward for the power to travel down your legs, and the shoulders most be lowered and slightly forward so the power can travel out your arms. If you tense up, the power will not flow. It is not magic, it is basic body mechanics. You can test your power by pushing on a wall or with another person. The core always moves first. The same method is taught for a powerful golf swing, tennis swing or baseball bat swing. The difference is that with Hsing Yi, you are always in the correct structure and can access this power no matter what strike you use.

[@justinsnow3979]

Hsing I is an amazing style, I’ve beenpracticing shanxi style for many years. I agree the standing is very important to develop the proper structure and leg strength required to explode and take ground. The five elements are the most important aspects of the style no doubt. Once you can do them all properly with full power. Now you know how to move in hsing I. Now it’s time to start putting the the elements into sparring. Hsing I is a very powerful art that is great at taking the opponents ground. So basically when you block/strike at the same time. You should be standing where your opponent was and they should be on the ground most likely unconscious.

[@alexfpower]

Adam your stuff is gold, I love these videos, Im curious though, I know you have online lessons, but do you teach in person at all?

[@spinningdragontao]

Interesting video. Check out Xingyi Academy. Xingyi still doesn't have forms. The links that are taught are not forms set in stone they are simply formulated to help learn the coordinations and principles that are shared by all internal styles. However just to be clear, no Sifu of XY would say they teach forms or that there are forms in XY

[@adventuresandvacations4947]

Can you talk about the incorporation of these styles into hung gar kung fu which has a common root as well with the 5 elements and 5 animals.?

[@MustAfaalik]

An excellent movie using the rare xing yi sword is available on YT "rusty blade". The santi post is a must for all levels of xing yi practitioners to build a strong structure both physically & mentally. At the same time it is for the master to assess your resolve, otherwise as they say, "don't waste my time". One reason there are very few legit students of this formidable system; which will certainly build character & power through mind & body awareness to enhance your life. Just as the ancient intellectuals say that Gung fu is to turn a bar of iron into a needle. And there is a movie that revolved around that philosophy.

[@geoffreynelson6413]

Check out Chris Davis’s Tai Chi Academy. He has a Xing Yi course that’s really good. I think you’d both like it.

[@romainverbrouck5147]

Hi Adam do you know if there are some books about the history of the most popular kung fu styles and maybe big events like the tournaments you are talking about? I'm really interested in learning more about it, not just wing chun but also other styles?

[@Akuston]

The only thing really difficult in Xing Yi quan is not a form but purely practitioner intents and imaginations in a form of forces sensing throughout your body in coordination of your movement. This is why my Xingyi quan lineage (Shanxi style) practice in a way of slow and sticky movement like Taiji quan at first; as a mean to cultivate dantian energy and force flow across your body before develop any practical fighting skills. However, I don't have any ideas about which way other Xingyiquan lineage practice nowadays.

[@mikehunt9884]

that xing yi explosion of power is demonstrable, you notice it right away when you watch those guys who did it for 20+ years, its pretty impressive. It seems pretty hard to learn, maybe not learn the movements but learn how to explode, i guess the only way would be to really train every day and do it little by little, theres no shortcuts

[@mariohostios]

yup san ti. & it's not bs

[@jasonstewartskungfustyles7106]

Xingi is great, to me like one arm Wing Chun. Taiji-Xingi-Ba were one style, separated now put back together

[@lelionnoir4523]

Is the spelling intended ? We tend to use Xingyi, or Hsing-I for some die-hard Wades-Giles fan.

[@QuentinKLEau]

For standardization and education purpose and learning Mandarin and pinyin at the same time Xing Yi would be better in my opinion.

[@kimliongkwee]

I’m actually curious where the master in the story is located. I wouldn’t mind emptying my cup to learn something.

[@brokeheartwolf3733]

Yep

[@CursedCommentaries]

Byron jacobs is an exelent teacher :D

[@StEvUgnIn]

How do you recognize a good master of Hsing I?

[@robertmallory1877]

I heard that the Five Elements was the newer form of Hsing and distilled from the Hsing Animal forms that predated it. Nobody can agree on the history when it comes to Chinese Martial Arts Styles, can they?

[@edwardhenne3204]

Well, post standing, and sati shr standing.

[@dragoncity99]

I was looking for the essence of Chinese Hands in Okinawan Karate. Hsing-I , White Crane and BajiQuan was mentioned from researching the roots of karate. Thank you very much for sharing and explaining the essence of Hsing-I. Can you help explain more about Baji Quan and White Crane as well.

[@areitomusic]

For Okinawan Karate, White Crane is mostly attributed as its foundation, but I have found that it is the case for the Shorin based systems. The Naha based systems have more in common with Hakka arts. The footwork and approaches of defending and attacking are keys to figuring it out. Shorin footwork is closer to White Crane and Naha footwork is related to Hakka kuen. Baji, not so much as far as I have seen.

[@dragoncity99]

@@areitomusic Thanks, i'll do more research on Hakka kuen too.

[@TeaSerpent]

Unfortunately we have next to no information on what Chinese styles any Okinawan forms come from. What we can say with almost absolute certainty is that Xingyi, Baji, and "Hakka Kuen" have absolutely no relation at all to Okinawan karate. There are still huge numbers of obscure traditional arts in China today. There were at least twice as many a century ago. Yet somehow the only ones people claim are related to karate are from the 2 dozens or so out of a thousand styles that are famous now. Most of the styles that are famous today were not famous and were only practiced by a small number of people in a specific small area of a few villages or a few counties in the 19th century. Also most of the styles claimed to be related to Okinawan karate such as "Hakka Kuen", Xingyi, or Baji are from places where Okinawan people did not go. (really no one says Baji is related to Karate and if they do they probably know nothing about Chinese martial arts.) Foreign people could not travel freely in China. Okinawans had to dock in and stay in Fuzhou except a small number who travelled to Beijing for scholarly studies or to make presentations to the emperor. And it was a very small number at that and they had to be approved and licensed through the Chinese government to do so. So the only style of the ones mentioned that they may have learned would be one of the styles of White crane practiced in Fuzhou. The thing is that Fuzhou is 13 times the size of Okinawa and had a much denser more varied martial culture. There were large numbers of different arts practiced there aside from white, which only started to be practiced in Fuzhou in the later part of the 18th century and really only became popular in the mid 19th century. Fuzhou had a huge number of local styles, many of these have died off. In general karate IMO has a lot more similarity to older Fuzhou than it does to Fuzhou white crane. But again White Crane is famous and most of the people saying this nonsense don't know anything about the various old traditional styles practiced in huge numbers all across China. So they claim white crane because karate kid and it's the only Fuzhou style they can name. The cold hard facts are that lots of historians have looked over what little remains of old mentions of martial arts in Okinawa and collected oral traditions looking for the roots of karate and have been doing so for a century now. People in Okinawa and Japan where inviting masters of all kinds of rare obscure Chinese styles to Okinawa and Japan from Taiwan, Hongkong, Chinese communities in Southeast Asia as well as travelling to those places to visit and have been travelling to mainland China since around 1980. None of them have ever been able to find out what Chinese style someone learned. The possible exception is Uechi Kanbun who appears to have studied under a teacher of Fuzhou Tiger Boxing, although he also taught various other styles. We also know that both a Fuzhou Tiger Boxer and a Calling Crane teacher were living in Okinawa and were practicing with and teaching a number of the big name karate teachers of the time. So this is where most of the small number older Okinawan crane forms come from. Although most of them are much more recent creations. We know he helped introduce Miyagi Chojun to teachers in China so we know Miyagi was influenced by Calling Crane. However the form in Goju ryu are not from Calling Crane. He appears to have made most of them up and the few he learned from Higaonna Kanryo are not crane forms. All we can say is that it is established that a number of Okinawans in the Ryukyu period learned Chinese empty handed and weapon arts in Fuzhou or from Chinese people in Okinawa. Likewise a number of Okinawans during the Ryukyu period studied Japanese Jujutsu, swordsmanship, and archery either in Japan or from Japanese people in Okinawa. There was also a political split during this time with some families advocating trying to politically associate more closely with the Japanese and some advocating politically associating more closely with the Chinese. Which side of the political divide someone was on likely influenced what arts they studied. However in general terms we know archery practiced in Okinawa was similar to that in Japan. Likewise Japanese swords were owned and used there. As for polearms and spears it seems to be a mix of Chinese and Japanese styles. Karate appears to be based much more on Chinese boxing but likely there was some influence in techniques from Jujutsu, although exactly how or to what degree is questionable. It is also possible that Jujutsu practice was kept somewhat separate from Chinese boxing inspired practice. But being practiced in the same reason there would inevitably be some degree of cross pollination. So it basically works out to a huge we don't know. Large numbers of people from Okinawa and Japan have dedicated their lives to studying that history, made countless trips to China to study old documents and interview and see old local styles and rare forms to find some link and they have not found any real answers. So if someone online is telling you they have answers but can't give any real evidence or they are claiming it comes from some style from rural farmers from the northern Chinese plains, they are probably just talking nonsense.

[@junichiroyamashita]

@@TeaSerpent well,this was a long and well constructed smackdown,but now i want to know. Other than White Crane,do we know or suspect other styles to have significantly influenced karate,and are we talking early or later? I heard that Enkampf theorised Karate to have been influenced by Kali,also i heard that Uechi ryu took alot from Pangai Noon. My point is, do we know any probable influence?

[@TeaSerpent]

There is really nothing to suggest that Kali had any influence on karate. There is a lot that I could go into like the practical realities of the Ryukyu kingdom conducting international trade (which are highly misunderstood by the karate community. But basically the chances of anyone learning any martial arts on one of those trade voyages was slim to none.)the likelihood of any of those influences remaining in any recognizable form 500 years later, especially when no kata is even half that age, or other details such as trying to link two arts based on them using a similar word for one of their exercises (not that tegumi or kumite are really at all the same as hubud is, also saying that 組 means "entangled" is a pretty big stretch.) But I won't go into that. What really matter is that nothing shown by that Kali teacher really links it to karate. The same basic techniques are found in all the Chinese styles I've studied and most of them do virtually that same exact drill. It's just a really basic fundamental skill found not just in basically all Chinese and southeast Asian martial arts, but most martial arts from anywhere else, at least ones that do some decent amount of striking or use shorter length blades or sticks. When you break martial arts down to their most basic methods, most of it is always going to be the same. For instance there are lots of northern Chinese martial arts that are extremely grappling heavy and share a large amount of their methods with Japanese Koryu Jujutsu. They look very different when you see a Chinese guy doing stylized taolu or a Jujutsu demonstration presenting them in the very formal ritualized manner that Koryu schools use for demonstrations. But when it comes down to informal training or actual sparring or fighting, they both do many throws and locks exactly the same way. But you will also find those same throws and locks in catch wrestling or Kalaripayattu. It doesn't mean there is a historical connection. It just means that hip throws or wrist locks are just obvious and practical techniques that any school with some amount of grappling will have. Just like the drill shown is something any school with a decent amount of striking or short blade work will have. Well barring certain things like evolution as a sport for certain rule sets. If you look at pictures of western bare knuckle boxing taken by Eadweard Muybridge in the 1870's, most of the techniques are found in northern Chinese martial arts and many of them in Karate. But that certainly doesn't suggest a historical link between bareknuckle boxing in 1870's Germany and Chinese martial arts from Hebei.

[@PunkRockNerd10171]

Since the 90s the Wing Chun folks have been studying Hsing I.

[@kevinruesch2864]

Hsing yi is like wing Chun +chin na and now has alot of baqua Tai chi elements in it I've seen them do ground fighting as well extremely well rounded style that's probably why it dominates

[@bigwavesun]

Dai family actually has more similarities to wing chun than modern xingyi iterations. Bringing Xingyi's 5 element long fists into a shorter range will look a lot like WIng Chun in application. The core 5 elements I believe were designed to teach fighting faster and I feel Li Luoneng and his students may have modified it to counter boxing and other dueling arts that may have been introduced at that time. It still kept a lot of their training for one hitter quitters for self-defense and potential killing purposes too.

[@winghosamLeung]

Hsing YI in northern part of China, and then Yi-Quan (Tai-Shing Quan)

[@swordhand]

Real talk! SanTi is the arts foundation. Without it your forms, your functions, your combat, your very ‘being’ will be EMPTY.

[@adolfogonzalez1305]

Where can someone learn Hshing Yi or Hakka styles in NYC?

[@clacicle]

Tom Bisio, Steve Arboleda (although I’m not sure if he’s in the city right now. I Liq Quan is taught by Sam Chin upstate NY, but he might have a student or two teaching in NYC.

[@circlewalkingcat]

There is Pak Mei by Man Fong Pak Mei Association

[@andrewblack7852]

Song is north river. Hubei. My family art. From Guo to Wang to Han. To me. I studied Yao for 10 years and Han for 20. Going back we see what Wang corrected. The mistakes in transmission. There is only one fist. You don’t mix things. Thats adding. You drop away poor things to reveal the truth of your Kung fu.

[@mollaram]

Whats a post traning?

[@mollaram]

@Aiden Fisher thanks pal

[@_....J........................]

"The modernisation of Chinese martial arts started in the early 20th century. Fuelled by a modern Chinese nationalism that focused on anti-imperialism, national unity and national revival, practising Chinese martial arts became widely recognised as a basic approach to build up people’s physiques, strengthen the nation and achieve national salvation. In this context, the government officially promoted Chinese martial arts in the education sector. The 1910s, 1920s and 1930s became the golden age of Chinese martial arts, now called guoshu or wushu. After the establishment of the PRC in 1949, the CCP initiated socialist reforms and extended state ownership to all sectors. In line with the economic and social policies, China’s sports policy was coloured by nationalism and self-strengthening objectives. The goal was to train strong, healthy bodies for national defence and the construction of the “New China”. As an important cultural legacy and a popular traditional sport, Chinese martial arts received special attention from the government. A nationwide campaign was launched by the Sports Ministry to promote wushu and integrate it into the newly established state-run sport system and education system. Chinese martial arts suffered a major setback during the Cultural Revolution. At the height of the Revolution between 1966 and 1968, wushu competitions ceased to take place and wushu teams at all levels stopped training, as was the case with other sports. At the same time, wushu came to be regarded as representing elitism and feudal culture. Therefore, wushu competitions ceased to take place and members of wushu teams stopped training. Wushu manuals and weapons were confiscated and destroyed by rebels. Wushu societies were closed down and wushu practitioners had to either practise in secret or stop practising. However, not all wushu activities ceased. Various politicised wushu exercises were created to interpret and promote the Maoist road and cultivate revolutionary activism. It was not until the late 1960s that wushu started to recover. By the early 1970s, in a relatively relaxed political environment, wushu development was brought back to normal." (You can find more details in *Lu Zhouxiang*'s monograph, Politics and Identity in Chinese Martial Arts, 2018)

[@emilianosintarias7337]

" CCP initiated socialist reforms and extended state ownership to all sectors", Sort of a contradiction in terms there. Even in 1949 most people, except Stalinists, knew socialism meant worker or social ownership, not state ownership. "policy was coloured by nationalism" and again, nationalism and socialism are opposites. Interesting times, those were! Thanks for this info.

[@_....J........................]

@@emilianosintarias7337 China's Communist Revolution happened in 1949. It's a huge country. It would've taken decades to reform the country's socio-economic systems of interpersonal relationships. There's an interesting interview, with an American academic who studies Chinese pre-communist modern history, online at Made In China Journal. "Chinese Asianism Yesterday and Today: A Conversation with Craig Smith"

[@kori228]

slightly confusing to follow along when you mix English, Mandarin, and Cantonese pronunciation of the names for the things 😅

[@warrenleezy]

Sum yee kuen is Cantonese pronunciation of Hsing Yi Chuan

[@clacicle]

But, there is so much more to standing than just standing and unfortunately most teachers don’t know this or don’t bother teaching it (it’s their little secret).

[@giuseppienad2632]

Yup. There is "intent" training within the santi training. Training six directions is one of the intent training which is just structure training.

[@bendavid5648]

@@giuseppienad2632 it’s a lot more than just structure. Too many xingyi practitioners are stiff because their structure is locked up. Just look at most of the videos on KZbin. They might have power (very external), but you can’t fight when you’re stiff.

[@eddiegriffin9404]

A historian also

[@MustAfaalik]

Legend has it that Ng Mui was a Shanxi xing yi practitioner who modified the system for the time it took to master (if ever) to wing chun. Shanxi being the place of origin & the phoenix fist is called Wu Mei killing fist.

[@giuseppienad2632]

Nope. No wing chun lineage holder claimed she learned xingyi

[@QuentinKLEau]

@@giuseppienad2632 Ng Mui was supposed to be one of the few Shaolin member to focus on "internal" martial art, therefore if many things in Yong Chun are similar to xingyi, that's normal. Furthermore, Shaolin was like a "Martial arts university", so Ng Mui being influenced by xingyi is not completely impossible.

[@MustAfaalik]

@@giuseppienad2632 I am not aware of any lineage holder of WC. You need to ask Wing Chun Practitioners in Mainland China who may have read about WC's connection to Xing Yi.

[@giuseppienad2632]

@@MustAfaalik like I said....NONE. Wing Chun's connection to Southern Chinese Martial Arts? Yes there is. Xingyi? No historical documents

[@giuseppienad2632]

@@QuentinKLEau 👏👏👏👏 Ng Mui is not real and her connection to Shaolin is just a myth created by the Wing Chun people who borrowed this habit from Southern Chinese Martial Artists of associating their art to Shaolin. Internal? Is there real documented evidence of Xingyi's connection to Shaolin Internal Arts like manuscripts or boxing manuals. And please do not give me a copy-paste of a sentence that will make it your "evidence". "Shaolin is like a martial arts university" Give me systems that are directly from Shaolin? I bet I can easily prove they not from Shaolin. Give me names of real people who learned from Shaolin. I bet you can't. For the record, There is no historical evidence that Shaolin is go to place of kung fu. There just learned martial arts just to protect the temple, their lands and their self interest.

[@williambreazeal387]

Hui Xinyiquan and Song Shaolin Xinyiba are very similar, and they are derived from the same teacher, a grand student of Ji Jike whose surname was Li. Dai Xinyiquan has some of the teachings from the Hui lineage, and it most closely resembles Hui Xinyiquan. Xingyiquan did not inherit the core practices of Dai Xinyiquan. Those are the squatting monkey, the three sticks, and the three fists. There is no SanTi standing in Dai Xinyiquan. So the foundational practices are very different and the resulting shen fa are quite different as well.

[@paxwallace8324]

Xing yi stomp flow stomp flow

[@michaelcrutledge]

Gotta start standing more

[@ytb460]

1 year? Hahaaaaa. 10 years was the standard. I think Wangxiangzhai said 2 or 3 but 1 hour plus per session. Some in that lineage demand 2/3 hours in 1 position daily.

[@bajuszpal172]

With bet acknowledgement to You Master Adam Chan, Methodology to start with in any of them and not to mix it, is missing. Your Beginners. Paul.68

[@bw5020]

Xing-Yi: A Kung Fu system that allows the practioner to put all their points in simple audacity. Nothing says victory like blasting into your opponent with the force of a truck.

[@strettoasino9006]

A gymnastics tourist attraction...... Sadly....

[@williambreazeal387]

A historical note, the caravan escort business was mostly about reputation and negotiation with relatively little fighting. The bandit groups were basically warlords with territorial control. Based on the reputation of the escort company, they would negotiate a fee for passage. In many cases, the escorts in one territory were the bandits in another territory. So bandits vs escorts in the north were mostly warlords negotiating with each other for passage rights. Most of the famous lineages were hired for some kind of guard duty. Che Xingyi was hired by the banks/money lenders in the Taigu area. Chen Taijiquan served as escorts. Bajiquan served as Imperial body guards. Yang Taijiquan, San Huang Pao Chui and Eagle Claw served as instructors for the Banner guard (Gunpowder Battalion).

[@mahasamatman12]

You mean Xingyi

[@yew2oob954]

The original fists weren't even 5 there were 3.

[@alekx58]

Altes deutsches Sprichwort ist wenn einer immer den Fuß freihat dann Brauch nicht immer ein hauen

[@paulcalugar1438]

On Xingyiquan: Very little in common with Wing Chun … and if you are projecting there is … shows the fundamental lack of skill and knowledge. Very little trapping … no need. 35 yrs of trading Xingyiquan (and teaching )

[@74usc]

Great explanation of xing yi quan. You are so correct if a teacher of xing yi quan does not start with san ti shi, walk out the door. I took many classes with Kumar Francis in Denver in Xing Yi, he never taught post standing. He could fight back then but he is a martial art fraud.

[@bw5020]

Good way to get sued

[@ishmael7478]

And to show your ignorance.

[@BrianKiddDevDesign]

Is Hsing I good for self defense?

[@Robert-rl7rd]

Who was the Xing Yi teacher that was teaching the post training?

[@Priestbokmei1]

Do you have any thoughts on Bok Mei/White Eyebrow Kung-fu?

[@shengchenfan]

I always saw Xing Yi like Wing Chun on Steroids.

[@yalansalah5792]

Der redet nur kake

[@Simon2k17]

Standing/posting is only very boring when the student doesn't know what they are looking for. I think if the teaching method was better, more people would do it.