What is a train?

It's less obvious than it sounds, I promise.
Here's some east coast adjacent reading for the curious, Erie railroad circa 1920, thanks to my friend Casey for pointing this out: www.jon-n-bevli...
Surprisingly, most of the rules translate to the east as well!
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/ @hyce777

[@Hyce777]

Wow, this one managed to cause quite the chaos in the comments section! Much love to the language aficionados out there, and to those who are somewhat familiar with all things railroad - but this is the *railroad* definition of what a train is. If you want to be a train that's actually on a railroad, you must follow these rules, else you're not one! :)

[@adlertelekom9359]

There is a similar behavior in Germany: For a customer a train is a locomotive and a bunch of cars. But according to railroad rules there are the following definitions: A train needs a headlight (3 white lights) and a rear signal (plate with two red and two white triangles or a red light). But the lights don't make up a train! A locomotive with cars or a railcar train and all the needed lights are just a shunting group (Rangiergruppe) until they got a schedule and a train number. Then they are a train (Zug). So moving that group from parking position to the platform is a shunting run (Rangierfahrt). Then they got their train number and a schedule (even if it is an extra train). And finally they are allowed to start if the semaphore switch to "go" as a train run (Zugfahrt). Shunting is only allowed inside of train yards or station yards (Bahnhof). Everything running on free tracks (Freie Strecke) need to be a train and therefore have a schedule and a train number (even it is for construction or rescue operations). A single locomotive running on a free track is called a "locomotive train" (Lok-Zug). These rules existed since the 2nd WW and maybe before. Nowadays you have some sort of electronic component on board, where you have to type in your training number to be recognized by interlocking systems and so on. For the sake of completeness: There are different rules how signals and semaphores affect you, depending on being a shunting group or a train.

[@Hat3M0ng3r]

You're confusing business jargon with the actual word train and what it means. All you need to be a train is to be hauling cars. A trolley is not a train. Jebus educate yourself will you?

[@Azeria]

See I would’ve guessed ‘goes chugga chugga and occasionally choo choo’ was a solid enough definition

[@Nareimooncatt]

Your forgot the horn. Or, in the case of the steam, a whistle that goes wooooooo.

[@unrelatedshark]

I cant tell if this is a John Oliver reference, or if this is just something i would expect him to say

[@Nareimooncatt]

@@unrelatedshark if you are referring to me, it's a Bubb Rubb reference, one of the classic memes.

[@unrelatedshark]

@@Nareimooncatt I was referring to the og comment, but I hadn't seen that clip before and id have to say it's a hoot

[@Nareimooncatt]

@@unrelatedshark gotcha.

[@Ti_Daley]

"What's up guys, this is Hyce and today we ask, 'what is train?'" =beat= "Well, it depends..." =End of the line plays, credits roll=

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

I mean how hard is it to explain that anything towing multiple things at once are trains? Like ut's not like we are talking about what is a planet or something....

[@Ti_Daley]

go look up how city planners make up ideas on how to reduce congestion by inventing some form of multi vehicle transit system

[@ostsan8598]

Everybody asks what is a train. Nobody asks how the train is doing.

[@RexAnger.]

WHY is a Train?

[@PikaPetey]

@@RexAnger. real question is WHEN is train?

[@danmaardeze]

It's just chugging along......

[@paradisepipeco]

@@RexAnger. It is a train because if it was an airplane, it wouldn't fit in the tunnels on account of the wings. And if it was a submarine, it wouldn't have any wheels, and it would keep falling off the track and tipping over. _(No need to thank me, I'm here to help.)_

[@steeljawX]

@@paradisepipeco But if you ask the crew of the USS Barb, apparently a train can be a cargo ship, because they apparently sank one during WWII. The criteria for sinking it being that they blew the thing up with their scuttling charge that sent it airborne, it crashed to the ground, bounced and rolled over and finally fell into the ocean it was running near to and went completely submerged. So by their accounts, yes. The USS Barb (a Gato-Class Submarine of the US Navy during WWII) sunk a train so trains can be boats if they touch water after being kersploded?

[@Tank245]

"What is a Train?" ❌ "Class Lights 101" ☑

[@Hyce777]

I should probably two part-er the title. Lol

[@Pamudder]

As always, an entertaining and enlightening lesson.

[@BrooksMoses]

@@Hyce777 : Remember to put the green lamps on the first part of the title when you do that!

[@zulu1697]

@@BrooksMoses green lights go on the following sections

[@sjwhitney]

Read the comment I posted. class lights are irrelevant.

[@Morphior]

But what *is* a train? *Vsauce music drops*

[@cowcatcherstudios5759]

This video is just a giant "it depends"

[@highball5550]

Drink!

[@3900Class]

In 40 years he's gonna be the main spokesman for Depends adult diapers. 🤣

[@danmaardeze]

As is any monologue by Hyce and that's exactly why I love it. It makes for well explained content.

[@paradoxworkshop4659]

Depends have deep ends.

[@Benstein347]

Over the course of human history, great philosophers have postulated many questions about the nature of existence. One famously defined a Man as "A Miserable Pile of Secrets". Another defined humans simply as ""Featherless bipeds". Today, Hyce poses the question, What is a Train? To which he speculates that a Train is whatever you want it to be, as long as it has the right colors.

[@tnexus13]

But enough talk, have at you!

[@wizardsuth]

1:19 "To be a train you have to be on the timetable, and anything else would be considered an extra train." -- An extra train is still a train.

[@jerrysgardentractorsengine2243]

Keep in mind we are talking timetable & train order operations throughout most of this video. Under TT&TO, extra trains are unscheduled and convey no authority unless specified

[@superbluhedgehog1]

"...FRED, for 'Flashing' Rear End Device, depending on your disposition with such a thing." Way to throw shade on the other, more colorful term former brakemen used to use in place of "Flashing".

[@---cr8nw]

So do those light up buttplugs make certain skanky women trains?

[@riderstrano783]

The joke we had was always that a train is just a movement on a timetable

[@RAFMnBgaming]

that's quite a funny one, the ones near me rarely stick to the timetable and don't exactly move between places all that often either.

[@rcschmidt668]

But you still can’t train an old dog new tricks. 🤓

[@prestonnewcomb5991]

Hehe, that's complicated joke.

[@PikaPetey]

Hyce. I just want to say im sitting in a parking lot just chilling, watching the Amtrak overnight train go by. Its dark enough to see its lights now and im like 👀👀 OH MY GOD THOSE GREEN AND RED LIGHTS ON CARS!! I KNOW WHAT THEY MEAN NOW! I immediately opened up my phone to leave this comment under hear. 😅 THANK YOU!

[@Hyce777]

I'm so glad! Haha. Amtrak still does it!

[@JaiahHazelnutBrown]

I think you’re referring to the door lock lights. AMTRAK doesn’t use classification lights, because no modern railroads do anymore.

[@kuhljager2429]

If you are seeing the lights on the sides of the cars (not just the lead and tail), if i remember correctly those are indicators for the status of the brakes/doors, so the engineer can see the status without checking each door by hand

[@daehkcarc6693]

Those are door and brake lamps. On the sides of the car there are green yellow and red lights. Green indicates brake release and yellow indicates a 4 pound (I think) set. Red lights on the side indicate a door is open. The engineer can see these lights as the p42s have mirrors. However all the Amtrak cars do have a set of red lights next to the doors that run between cars which do illuminate red on the end of the train to act as eot lights.

[@PikaPetey]

@daehkcarc6693 I'm talking about the specific Amtrak overnight train that travels from NYC Grand Central Station to Chicago Union Station. It combines with the train from Boston in Albany NY.

[@ivanthevaluable2559]

Shout-out to the big blue dumpster in the background... This serves very useful for the people who call him Thomas the Train...

[@ericbrenenstuhl6039]

But his name is Thomas the Tank Engine... Anyone calling him Thomas the Train is misnaming him and (according to the video) twice wrong.

[@TrainMedia00]

🚂 👈 This is a locomotive 🚃🚃🚃👈 Those are rail cars 🚂🚃🚃🚃👈 This is a Train. And what do we have? 5:38 ✨Markerlights✨

[@davidioanhedges]

An engine with 2 cars is a train, and engine with 1 car is a train, and engine with 0 cars is a train ...

[@cobberpete1]

Yep, that's my take on it as well

[@VigilanteAgumon]

What about multiple units?

[@jacebeleren9290]

I spot a blue dumpster

[@nathanielwilbanks3734]

Must have forgotten to have it removed

[@shawndoyle7531]

🤢🤢

[@alfrancisnh]

Legit didn’t see the face at first….🤣🤣

[@aceproductions43]

😠 how dare you disrespect my boy

[@michaelrobinson9516]

I ran that blue dumpster several weeks ago

[@modelrailpreservation]

The green class lamps on postwar Lionel steam was one of the genius things they did. By putting green rhinestones in the marker lamp holders, one could say "Nope, this is not the same train that passed 10 seconds ago. It's a different train, it just has the same consist".

[@Ryan_Rail]

As a FRA Commuter Rail Conductor here in Colorado, all of our trains still use markers to identify the rear of the train. A dimmed headlight can also be used as rear markers if the red rear markers aren't functioning correctly.

[@redscale3709]

Hearing Hyce talk about what is a train and what is not, kind reminded me of how I go on about what is a castle and what is not. To me structures like Pena Palace and Schloss Neuschwanstein are not castles, but rather palaces because they are just big fancy homes and not fortified. True castles like Chepstow and Santa Maria De Feira are proper castles because they are both a residence and fortified to withstand attacks.

[@EdwardDragon96]

Thats why here in Germany we have 2 words to differentiate the 2. "Schloss" is the fancy one without much fortification. "Burg" is the one with lots of fortifications. "Burg" is also sometimes used the same as "Festung" aka. Fortress or Stronghold.

[@redscale3709]

@@EdwardDragon96 I know, I love that about the German language! It gives extra clarity so there's less confusion. Sometimes when speaking in English I'll use the words Schloss and Burg to refer to fancy castles and more fortified castles respectively. I wish we had a better distinction in English. I haven't heard Festung before but I knew you must have a word for fortress or stronghold as well. Cheers!😀

[@laurencefraser]

@@redscale3709 English has a distinction, but runs into the issue of many such structures being converted from one to the other and not having their names change accordingly.

[@redscale3709]

@@laurencefraser Yeah like Windsor castle. When it was built in the medieval period, it was a fortified castle but now it's just a palace because it's no longer fortified. Primarily because of all the windows that were added later. Out of curiosity, what's the distinction that you know? Like I could say one is a fortified castle and the other is a non-fortified castle but ultimately I am using the same word for both structures just with a small distinction in front, and still using the same word for both. That's why sometimes I'll call non fortified castles palaces and properly fortified castles, castles.

[@TheBayru]

In Belgium a castle ('kasteel' in dutch or 'chateau' in french) is any building that before the 19th century was the main building of the main residence of the vogt of a domain.

[@nathancorcoran5347]

Wonderful tour around the Colorado Railroad Museum while talking about what train are. Especially on Denver & Rio Grande Western 491 and Rio Grande Southern #20.

[@caroleast9636]

Any vehicle on the rails that enters a block section is a train in section. That can be multiple vehicles coupled together or a trolley being hand pushed, it’s still a train in section and all the rules of a train in section need to be followed.

[@aron582railways7]

We did do something similar in Britain but we designate a train by headcodes which would be either discs or lamps in certain positions to label what was transpoted and what the service was

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

Headlamps/discs would, on all but the Southern Railway, would only denote the Class of the train and not the actual train. On the Southern Railway with 2 extra lamps/discs you could identify routes as well. The only exemption I'm aware of are the Tyneside electrics and the Liverpool Street electrics which used 4 white lights in a square with different combinations of lights to indicate the route the train was to take.

[@davidty2006]

some places just displayed the train's headcode on the front for all to see. And pretty much all systems continued into BR diesel era though headcode boxes were replaced with just lights eventually.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

@davidty2006 4-chaarcter train reporting numbers are still in use but only linger displayed on the front on the train. These did show the class of the train,the destination by region or district, and the train number within that class of train. In some locations, such as between Tees Yard and Skinningrove, the district letter indicated the start or end point of the journey between the 2 designated points for freight services. For light engine movements, the train number indicated the depot the locomotive was heading to, and when coming back from the depot, it was 0 plus the 2nd to 4th characters of the train reporting number. As for DMUs with 2-character headcodes, they would show a train class letter (A, B, or C) which corresponded to Class 1, Class 2, or ECS for the full 4-character headcode, and a number to indicate the route. On BR(SR), the 2-character headcode indicated the route a train was to take as well as the destination. When the displaying of any kind of headcode was no longer necessary, only the bottom 2 discs were used, if retained, and the alphanumeric headcodes were replaced by 2 white discs on a black background.

[@longmonttrains548]

What is a train? Idk but now I know more about class lights.

[@KnapfordMaster98]

Can't believe you had Thomas RIGHT there and didn't bother asking for his input. We are losing primary sources every day.

[@paxvictori2385]

Aw yes, the thomas dummy in the background...

[@bryancavanaugh112]

"Well it depends" =goes on 10 tangents while keeping blue train kidnapped= =video ends= Amazing Video Hyce, thanks for educating me and so many others on railroad practices and semantics. Always love watching your videos!

[@robertwilloughby8050]

In the 60's and 70's British Rail used have visible headcodes - for example, 1V88 meant 1 - Express Passenger, V meant train to the Western Region, and 88 was it's reporting number. Headcodes are still used, but no longer visible to the general public.

[@cameronmuhic5735]

Hyce-you may have heard this before. Talking about sections- the 20th Century Limited once (Jan 7, 1929) operated 7 sections on the eastbound because of traffic to the New York Auto Show. And whats amazing is that they were able to offer that many Pullmans in addition to all the regular trains!

[@patricksheary2219]

Hi Mark, this was a great tutorial. As always your explanations are clear and understandable. I really liked the primary source images of markers from 1924 that you used. I could pause the video and study a little longer after you described them. That was a nice touch. I always enjoy it when you feature objects from the CRRM’s extraordinary collection. And WOW to Dusty and his amazing reproduction class lamp. Impressive work! Yet another fabulous learning moment, Professor. Looking forward to the next episode, and cheers to you Mark!

[@weylinwest9505]

Old train song: 🎶 Daddy what's a train? Is it something I can ride? 🎶Does it carry lots of grown-up folks and little kids inside? 🎶Is it bigger than our house? Well how can I explain when my little boy asked me, "Daddy what's a train?"

[@alexhajnal107]

The legendary Utah Phillips.

[@railfan475productions3]

try not to cry challenge

[@drewzero1]

This was playing in my head as soon as I saw the video title. Great song and now that my young children are getting _very_ into trains it keeps coming back to me!

[@andyjackson3414]

I love the sound of the Goose. I thought for a second or two Hyce was getting strafed by a WW2 fighter. Well done. I have D&RGW timetables, 1974 and 1983, never held in a hip-pocket. At that timeI worked for the BN, Denver, and wish I had pilfered more stuff like that. Most freights were scheduled, coal-trains less so, and lots of those. All had cabooses, "way-cars" on the Burlington, and maxed out at 110 cars for coal. Lots and lots of coal.

[@---cr8nw]

Holy carp! I don't know why youtube thought I should see this, but I gave it a try. 5 minutes in and I'm convinced that I could never be anywhere near as nerdy as I'm previously imagined myself to be. Keep up the good (?) work. Just don't expect me to see any of it.

[@uncipaws7643]

It also depends on the country. In numerous countries such as Germany there is a distinction between a "train" and a "shunting movement", and between "station" and "open track". A train operates by the main signals and can run on the open track at the speed permitted for that track. It is not allowed to enter an occupied track but has to stop in front of a main signal and wait until the section is cleared. Then it can rely on the track being clear (so it can run faster than what would make possible to stop in front of an obstacle seen in front of the train). A shunting movement is restricted to the area within a station (there are signs showing how far it can go). It goes by special shunting signals and is operating at restricted speed on sight (40 km/h or less, depending on the local situation, slow enough to stop when seeing an obstacle). It can enter an occupied track (and has to do so when coupling a locomotive to a train, or two sections of a train together, and so on). The changeover between the two states can only be done when standing. So when two passenger units (such as ICE) are coupled together, one stands at a station and the other enters at reduced speed, stopping in front of a main signal in the middle of the platform track. Afterwards it will get a shunting signal allowing to pass the red main signal and slowly approach the other unit to couple up together. There's some electronic communication between the units going on (this is the modern world after all) and the coupled units are considered one train from now on and can depart as such.

[@TRAINLORD_TF]

Almost, generally you can go from switching move to Train without stopping, is commonly done and allowed almost everywhere. Train to Switching move is usally done while Stationary, but under special circumstances changing without stopping can be allowed too. And you can send a Train in a Occupied Track , using Mainsignals with speed restriction 30km/h or lower or a special signal, that works in some big Passenger stations

[@adlertelekom9359]

​@@TRAINLORD_TF I thought entering an occupied track is only allowed if there is some sort of center signal ... Starting shunting to couple together after a full stop in front of that signal.

[@TRAINLORD_TF]

@@adlertelekom9359 as far as I'm aware it's not totally necessary, if there is one, it would be done like you discribed. If not they just stop short of it and pull forward.

[@adlertelekom9359]

@@TRAINLORD_TF I've done research on that. There are 3 types of entering an occupied track: Center main signal, (entering with 40km/h), center separation signal (like shunting signal without "go") 20km/h western Germany, 40km/h eastern Germany if provided with special signal plate, and "on advice". In last case the train has to come to a full stop on entry signal to get the advice or the advice had to be given before leaving the last station or are provided with the schedule. Also 20km/h. So you're right, it should be possible in every train yard, as long as the track is long enough.

[@digitalrailroader]

1:00 I was actually at the museum yesterday and watched them tow “Thomas” out of the roundhouse with Big Al!

[@legdig]

Oh hey! I remember talking to you about train classification systems on british railways a lil while back! interesting to learn more about how the Americans do it

[@Idaho-Cowboy]

Can't wait for the next episodes: how is train; or better yet, why is train. Actually this was really cool. I never thought about the lamps to indicate a train was in the clear that's quite. Also cool to know the reason for the cupola on top of the cupola is for on the bobber caboose.

[@alexanderbeck5063]

As long as I've been interested in trains, this never really occurred to me as a legit, in-depth question! Brilliant as usual!

[@Cubestone]

We used similar marker light codes on the Alaska Railroad in the 1970s. I hear that there are block signals on the system now. Then, we operated on orders, and schedule for the passenger train. We seldom ran sections, but extras were frequent while hauling pipeline materials north. (I remember the extra board turning over every eight hours when things were really busy.) We also had to have annual inspections of our watches and sign a time sync log at the beginning of every call out. Running on orders required a lot of rule knowledge and markers were important. All of the crew had to observe train numbers and markers when we had meets.

[@VixessRin1702]

The title made me giggle waaaay more than it should've xD

[@S-CB-SL-Animations]

If not train, why train shaped?

[@paradisepipeco]

@@S-CB-SL-Animations It's a clever ruse.....

[@dzymslizzy3641]

Very interesting! One of the stories my dad told of his late teen and early 20s years concerned he and a couple of friends going on a hike to a camping trip. Their route lay through a train tunnel. They had checked the schedule, and as it was a weekend, there were no scheduled trains. However, when they were about halfway through the tunnel, a train came along: an unscheduled freight! They crammed themselves between the timbers at the side of the tunnel, and waited for it to pass. (Luckily, it was heading downhill, or they might have suffocated!) When they came out the other end of the tunnel, they looked each other up and down, and discovered that they were covered in soot from the timbers, and looked as if they'd been working a coal mine! LOL

[@fredwood1490]

THANK YOU!!! I've wondered about those red-green-white lights for many years, seeing them on trains back in the 1950s as well as in the movies.

[@peregrina7701]

Saw the title and thought "what variation of 'it depends' are we doing today?" Answer: Not the one I expected! Thanks for the video and it's fun to be back at the CRRM, even with a blue dumpster occupying shop space and far too much of the museum's IG content. Looking forward to more! PS. How's Peaches coming along with her repairs? Is she prepared to host a dedicated video about spring rigging? Hint, hint. :)

[@Hyce777]

Still sitting waiting for the new spring to show up, unfortunately. I don't know if I'll do a video about it or not. It's hard to film and work on that sort of stuff simultaneously. Lol!

[@peregrina7701]

@@Hyce777 arrrgh, the all too familiar tale of recalcitrant suppliers 🙄hope it doesn't take too long(er)

[@SiqueScarface]

In Germany, a single engine can be a train too. In this case, it is called a Lokzug (Lz), meaning "engine train". Lz can also be several engines coupled together. Lz is common in mountainous regions where pushing engines are helping trains going up steep ramps and later comes back single to their starting location.

[@jeffhergert4614]

In the US, a single engine could be a train. The rule (actually a definition) traditionally was, "An engine, with or without cars, displaying markers." It doesn't mention classification signals, that's part of a different set of rules. The definition changed over the years to allow for multiple engines operated from one cab and added "authorized to occupy the main track."

[@michgeeson278]

Cool to hear what the US railroad legality on it is, but to me train is consist of vehicles wether rail mounted or not, otherwise is a ‘light loco(s)’ or a rail-car, at least by uk definition, the confusing thing is with gangway less DMU’s are they a consist of vehicles or a single articulated one… depends if it has vehicle numbers or a train-set number…

[@P-J-W-777]

I spent 9 weeks in Golden for work and never found enough time to visit this museum and I have always regretted that. I’ve been on the train in Durango a couple of times but would really like to visit a working museum such as this one. Hopefully one day!

[@SPRailfan4449]

A daylight appeared in this video! Great example you used for time table number boards Hyce. 1:54 👍

[@rodsmith3911]

Nice little video giving some interesting facts. Totally different to our British system, and gives an insight into the American railroad operation in past years. Some of the ideas are similar like the rear side lamps showing which track the train is on. Other ones are completely different especially showing green lamps on a train, as green can only show on a signal or handlamp here. Those green lamps have always puzzled me! Thanks for the insight.

[@fsj197811]

Very cool. It reminds me of boats having a fair bit of lighting requirements for different types of vessels as well as flags during the day for certain things. As always, thanks for sharing.

[@vincentrobinette1507]

I've always been taught that a train is an engine pulling cars. In steam, I don't consider the tender to be a train car, but rather, part of the locomotive. To be more technical, a steam engine is the engine, when paired with its tender, that whole set becomes the "locomotive". With diesel, the whole thing is the locomotive, because it carries its fuel on board, and doesn't need a tender. ("Thomas the Tank Engine" is a locomotive) The "engine" in a diesel locomotive is the actual prime mover, the big cylinder block with the pistons, that burns the fuel to make the mechanical power. With steam, the engines flywheels are the wheels that actually contact the railroad track, with no transmission needed. It's fair to call it an "engine".

[@laurencefraser]

In the English langauge, the default meaning of "train" that encompases all it's uses (save for railways, inconveniently, where railcars, multiple units, and technical terms mess it all up :P) is (probably better worded than this): 'That which is pulled or follows behind'. You get camel trains, artillery trains (that is, the contents of an army's artillery park when it's moving from A to B), baggage trains (again, not a railway train full of bagage), someone showing up with various other people 'in train', trains on dresses (no, that's not refering to Thomas the Tank Engine print fabric :P), road trains, and, of course, Railway trains. Importantly, the Lead element of whatever one is talking about Is Not A Train. It's the thing that's either pulling or being followed (well, for artillery and bagage trains, the lead element is the army itself, for the train on a dress the lead element is... the dress/person wearing it, and so on). By that usage a locomotive in isolation (debatable whether the tender counts one way or the other) is never a train... though if two are coupled together you get to have a bit of an argument about whether the Second one is or not. Neither is a single tram car by itself... attach a carriage/wagon/trailer/etc. to the back of it though? Well, that locomotive is now Pulling a train... it's still not a train itself though. Railcars just falt out arn't trains (though some can Pull a train) by that definition. Multiple units get a bit weird and awkward. The ones that have a front power car, then a trailer, then... whatever... where each car is a distinctly seperate entity? Sure, that's a train. The ones where All cars are powered... and designed such that it's debatable whether there are actually multiple cars or a single, oversized, articulated car? ... debatable. Oh, for extra fun, a locomotive Pushing a bunch of carriages/wagons/whatever? Still not a train... unless it's being controlled from a driver's position in the front-most car, at which point it arguably is... until you start thinking about the fact that the rails, rather than the driver, dictate where the thing actually goes and it all gets a bit confusing again. Regardless, no matter how you solve any of those awkward bits, Thomas the Tank Engine is, and continues to be, Not a train. He pulls trains, but he isn't one. None of which is terribly Important, but it is kind of interesting.

[@The_alberta_railfan]

Is no one going to talk about Thomas in the background? Why is he not facing us? What is he scheming?

[@CMDRSweeper]

And on the ES&D, you are a train as long as you are running and not blowing up!

[@akaBoG]

Sweet! New Hyce at the Colorado Railroad Museum video - let's go!!!

[@TucsonBillD]

According to the rule book, a train is defined as a locomotive with or without cars, displaying markers.

[@dennislippert8875]

Correct! Because front class lights or.flags were ONLY needed in special circumstances (extras and multiple sections). While most locomotives were still equipped with tri-color class lights into the 1980's, many roads did away with their use considerably earlier. In fact, PRR's Alco Century locos jn the 1960's wre already equipped wioth just the red lights,..

[@acsoosub]

@@dennislippert8875right, because the class lights are not markers, they’re two different things.

[@ELDRGW]

1:11 is the blue thing a train or a really not useful shoving platform lol 🤔 😆

[@Ryan_Rail]

It's a big blue dumpster, because it's made of the same cheep metal and rattles like one too!! 😅

[@applejackcarsparks8482]

Wear ear pro in that dumpster

[@railfan475productions3]

please get the stick out of your ass and let people enjoy the thing that got them into the hobby

[@TDOBrandano]

So I guess the first prerequisite for it to be a train is that it must have the potential of being late

[@Stuingtion]

1:26 hold the phone, is that Thomas I see there?

[@dylanschultz9573]

I see that too😂

[@Thoroughly_Wet]

Some buddies and i halfway across a railway viaduct and buddy feeling rails: "TRAAAAAIIIIIINNN" Me after watching this video: "That depends, what year is it?!"

[@tythebear]

Ah the fred, lovingly known as the Freaking Really E(a)nnoyimg Device By my coworkers and i back when i was on a switch crew for a shop. For those who may not know they used the air hose to spin a motor for its power, really loud and annoying to be around, also the older ones are super heavy and a bit awkward to attach to the car.

[@n2nitro444]

PGE (Pacific great Eastern) which became BC Rail. Was Red=single section Green=section following White=light engine In modern day CN rail has built in Red markers on their locomotives. And CP runs dim headlight on the rear. And of course if its a car on the end a FRED.

[@3henry214]

Well, it was really interesting to learn something that I didn't expect, an explanation of what I saw when 4014 was here... the "X" in X4014 on the number boards, and the two flags on the front, were more than just a ceremonial display of the US Flag and the State Flag where Big Boy is running. Thanks for the video!!

[@acsoosub]

Except the state flag display on the modern run IS purely ceremonial/cosmetic and has no rules meaning.

[@sky0kast0]

Oh I love you hyce I just don't watch you as much as I could lately.

[@drewbarker8504]

Thanks for throwing together and illustrating this great little primer, and how things have changed with time. (Even today, the “nuanced” differences are interesting)

[@CuriepolisBuch]

This is quite interesting for a number of reasons. Firstly, most people, including myself, would expect a technical answer to the question "What is a train?" -- e.g. "a combination of linked vehicles (at least 2) which travel on a track". Hyce's answer is from an operational perspective though: "A train is a movement of vehicles on the line which is marked down in the timetable and shows such-and-such flags or lights", which makes sense to the rail operator, because it refers to a protocol on how to react to activity on the line -- set signals, move switches, close barriers etc. A technical definition would be useless to the operator. If you go along with my attempt: "At least two linked vehicles..." you quickly run into a whole scholasticism of details: e.g. what about rail buses? Does a single unit not count at a train, but two linked buses do? Single vehicles on the move do require the (almost) same set of actions and precautions from the railroad workers as several linked ones, so making this distinction would be just a waste of time for the company. Considering all this, defining "train" from an operational perspective suddenly makes a lot of sense.

[@petersilva037]

Long ago, I took a course on computer protocols... It all started using train signalling... kind of important for tunnels... most train signalling protocols' weanesses were revealed by collisions and death. So now every time I see anything related to train signals, I salute the fallen who led us to the internet protocols we have today.

[@danielmkubacki]

You blew my mind. Great video Mark!

[@157RANDOM]

Class lights lasted a very long time here in Canada. Some of CN's GP9RM rebuilds as late as the early 90s retained their class lights, although they weren't really used. But they were there. Latest GP9RM I've seen that retained class lights is CN 4131, built in 1958 for the North Alberta Railway, sold to CN, and rebuilt in 1991. Still going strong today.

[@CDROM-lq9iz]

We have a number of locomotives rolling around that still have the port holes for the class lights. All of ours have been disabled though. The ports are still there, and some of them even still have the wiring in place, sometimes it even works.

[@Mini_Celeste]

As the great people at WTYP once said: "Fred! We've just invented a guy named Fred!" "No... We replaced a guy, with FRED."

[@Johndoe-jd]

I'm surprised that class lamps aren't still in place as an emergency backup if necessary.

[@mjustjeanette7026]

Low tech solutions are still effective solutions.

[@acsoosub]

Backup for what? With the obsolescence of timetable operation they don’t mean anything anymore.

[@MrLOLCraftLP1]

Thanks, now i know what a choo choo is in the US. Here in Germany we have vastly different requirements for a train to be a "train". I love showing how the Railraod works here in germany. For Train to be a train this requirements have to be met: you need a front signal which shows 3 white lamps forming an A, two red backlights showing the end of the train, driving out on the line or within an station with an valid timetable, Trains must be particularly secured by technical equipment or operational measures. Trains typically drive with high speeds. Fun fact: if a train gets seperated on the main line and has to leave the rest behind, the end signal has to stay on at the coaches left behind and the rest of the train drives without an end signal to show that something got lost. For Shunting we meet different requirements: Shunters need at least one white light at buffer hight on both ends and no red end signal, they don't have a timetable and drive with a maxium of 25 kp/h (15 mph) sometimes up to 40 kp/h (25 mph) only within stations. they don't need safety systems except for the SIFA (Dead man's switch), for up to 5 cars air brakes are not required (Station exceptions may apply) When we drive from our Siding tracks to the Platform we are Shunting even if we have a timetable for our train number. From the DB Ril 408.0488 (Official DB Directive): A shunting movement that is to become a train movement does not have to be stopped at the next main signal - in the case of a group signal at the associated blocking signal - if the requirements for the train's departure are met. This is not permitted for group signals without a light blocking signal or high form blocking signal. The train journey begins when the head of the shunting movement passes the signals mentioned. A train movement may change into a shunting movement if the train a) at the usual stopping place in stations, b) in front of a stop signal in stations, c) in front of a stop signal for the purpose of entering a construction track, d) in front of a Ne 1 signal or at the level of an entry or block signal on the opposite track for the purpose of entering a construction track, or e) has come to a stop in front of a connection switch on the open track for the purpose of serving a connection point without main signals has come to a stop. A train movement may be changed to a shunting movement in stations without a stop at the usual stopping place if the following conditions are met 1. the station logbook shows the train number and the shunting route. 2. the switchman authorizes the shunting movement by means of the light signal Sh 1 (DS 301) or Ra 12 (DV 301) at the main signal indicating Stop The shunting movement starts with the passing of the signal by the head of the train.

[@Stuingtion]

I honestly always wondered what the marker lamps were for on a train, and now I know.

[@VintageRenewed]

So from what I’m hearing as long as I put a flag on the front and rear of my speeder then I am technically a train Sounds good to me lol😂

[@Pyrotrainthing]

11:13 Dummy Thomas jumpscare

[@all4espi]

I used to have a roommate in the '90s who was a retired Conductor with the Illinois Central. He told me about FRED, and had told me it stood for "Federally Required End Device", but every other source shows it means "Flashing Read End Device", as you said, but you also mentioned that it depended on "your disposition of such a thing."

[@HelloKittyFanMan]

"But you also need to have a set of marker lights on the rear of the train..." Oh, so before that set of lights (or flags) is on the back, the string is _still_ a train because you called it that before locking the lights on textually.

[@tezzerii]

It used to be so simple - the loco pulls the train. Like an old-fashioned bride had a train behind her.

[@arthurfunk3104]

So the difference between a choo-choo train and a bridal train is that a choo-choo train has the caboose in the back.

[@tezzerii]

@@arthurfunk3104 and a bridal train used to often have a bridesmaid or maid of honour at the back to look after it.

[@matttheitalianengien]

Wait is that thomas next to 20?!

[@rgsrrofnc]

Multi section trains can be interesting. During WWII, they ran several on the Grande. One reason they would have to is because the length of the sidings. If you had to pass trains at a siding, you had to saw by the train which was longer than the siding. If you had the long train, meeting many trains in the opposing direction, you could be stuck there sawing by trains. And you can run low on water!!! I don't recall where it was (could have been the SP) but one of the trains in the multiple section train did not have their green lamps on (at night) and the opposing engine crew waiting on a siding assumed that it was the last section and the train orders were not correct for the count (or they miscounted.) They pulled out of the siding to collide with the last section of the troop train. IIRC, the first sections would carry green on the head end and NO markers on the tail end. The last section of the train would carry NO class lamp/flags but would have the markers on the tail end marking the end of all the sections.

[@Hyce777]

I believe that's correct from what I've read since - only markers at the end of the entire legal "train"

[@jeffhergert4614]

@@Hyce777 Every train would display a marker. If a regular train was running in multiple sections, each section would display a marker. If there were 3 sections, the first and second sections would display green classification signals. The third and final section would not display any class signal. All three sections would display their own marker on the last car. It should be noted that a dispatcher could run two unrelated trains as sections on one schedule. An example might be a manifest (mixed type of freight cars) run daily as No 59. On a particular day there is a grain train ready to follow No 59 about an hour later. Instead of running the grain train as an extra, the dispatcher could run both trains under the same schedule as first 59 and second 59. A time table schedule was good for up to 12 hours after the printed time in the time table. Freight trains often ran late, which brought about the use of train orders to modify schedules and meets, lest a 5 hour late train cause inferior trains to wait for that late superior train.

[@epoxysentra]

A nice video indeed about the roles that flags and class lights played on the western railroads. It makes me think of the CTA, better known as the Chicago L, and their usage of class lights. While the passenger just needs to know which L train is heading depending on the boards on the ends and sides of the train, the various towers, conductors, and station staff (in addition to the savvy rider) needed a way to tell where an L was heading from a greater distance. Hence, any L train has a row of class lights on either side of the cab sporting red, green, white, and orange lamps. Originally it was only red and green lamps, but more colors were added as the system grew and new services were introduced. These lights become especially important when trains are sent through the Loop, where a vast majority of CTA services converge, and need to both enter and exit the Loop in specific directions. In the age of GPS tracking and more advanced radio comms, these lights are a bit of a redundancy, but are still being used for their intended purposes, which now makes then a failsafe if the comms go down, or when visibility is dropped from one of those infamous Chicago snowstorms. So if you're ever in Chicago and riding the L, definitely take a peek at the front of the train and see which lights are lit up.

[@Hyce777]

That's cool!

[@davidrubin8228]

Thank you Hyce. I thought the presentation informative. I am glad that I can still learn about trains.

[@ozelhassan8576]

This video is so informative, thank you very much.

[@ggkol8745]

Answers the question "What makes vehicles that are all trains also classified as a train by some random country's rules"

[@tootired76]

Well gee! I always thought a train was the rear of a wedding dress!! 😜🤪 Interesting video as always!

[@BrooksMoses]

Somewhere there's a photo of my wife in her wedding dress with a small wooden caboose on the end of the train.

[@T.h.e__T.r.u.t.h]

That galloping goose looks like a train designed and owned by Liberace i love it!!!!!

[@IsaacDaBoatSloth]

philosophy also in england it tends to be what the railways says is a train that day which is typically just something that has to run on the main, so a locomotive is a locomotive unless it has to run on the mainline in which its a train even if it has no train

[@gundamwarrior]

Oh dear Lord they're multiplying. IRL Thomas are literally SCP's

[@EWLR89]

An interesting thing is that the current GCOR (General Code of Operating Rules) has verbiage to support this (trains being different from locomotives) in the sections on Other than main track, restricted, and yard limits. In these limits, trains are to run at restricted speed and be able to stop within half the range of vission, short of: trains, cars, engines, men, and equipment.

[@B-and-O-Operator-Fairmont]

"An engine or more than one engine coupled, with or without cars, displaying a marker." To my knowledge, Extra Trains were never run in sections. If there were too many cars for one Extra, another Extra would be run. Extra trains were authorized by train order and were designated by the engine number and direction, such as "Extra 20 East". Supposedly one time the "20th Century Limited" ran seven sections. Thus, the first six engines had green class lamps, and the last section displayed none. Conrail kept class lamps on their engines into the early 1990s, usually on engines that would be used as rear end helpers. Thus, they could display a red light to the rear of the consist.

[@acsoosub]

Correct, sections could only be run of an existing schedule. Extra trains were additional unscheduled trains. If you needed more trains you simply ran more extras.

[@acsoosub]

This video actually gets a few things wrong, or at least misleading. “Markers” are specifically the tail-end lights/flags. A “train”, for the purposes of rules definitions is a engine (defined by the rules as one or more units operated under a single control - so the operating rules treats a set of diesel locomotives the same as one “engine” for movement rules) with or without cars with markers attached to indicate the rear end. Markers ARE still used today; those modern end-train-devices include a reflective red marker and/or a flashing red light - that fulfils the marker rule. In the case of light engines or rear end pusher engines, some rules allow for a dimmed headlight to act as a marker. In some cases a red flag in the rear coupler may serve as a tail end marker. “Classification signals” are not markers and have nothing to do with the question presented. These denote different types of non-regularly-scheduled trains under timetable operation. All regularly scheduled trains don’t show any signals at all. This also gets the green signals wrong in a common fashion. When running multiple sections on the same timetable schedule, it’s the FIRST section(s) that display green flags to indicate there are following sections. The last section does NOT display any signals. The video also mentioned number board displays which also has nothing to do with the question of definition. While some railroads had changeable boards that would be set to show the train number instead of the engine number to help identify the train, just as many had fixed boards. While the practice of changing the boards to display the train ID on some railroads is interesting and worth discussing it should be clear that over half of the video is “extra” and not directly related to answering the question of the definition.

[@ke9tv]

It's astonishing how many dark blocks there are left in America - where there's no signaling and trains still operate on written movement warrants. Even the LIRR on New York still doesn't have full interlocking on the East End of Long Island. LIRR trains still have the marker lights. Interestingly, they use them partly to inform passengers. The head end will always have the white headlights, but westbound electrics will display white alone if their destination is Penn Station, white and red together if it's the Brooklyn terminal at Flatbush Avenue. (Diesels, and only Diesels, go to the Hunterspoint Avenue terminal.)

[@sjwhitney]

Mark, I just need to clarify one thing (as my duty as a rules instructor and examiner for half my 37 year career), and that is the locomotive classification lamps have NO bearing on if you are or are not a train. By definition: Train - an engine or engines coupled, with or without cars, displaying markers. The one item that makes you a train is the display of markers at the rear. It can be a red flag, lamp or lantern, regular kero markers, or a modern rear end device. It also does not matter what kind of train: "Regular" (a train found in the timetable), or "extra", a train not found in the timetable. The rest is all sorted out by various definitions of course but won't change the basic "If it has a marker or markers, it's a train." The only exception to the "class lamp" situation is where one has class lamps also outfitted with red lenses. Whereas a headlight illuminated on DIM to the rear today is also considered a marker, before this came into general use, the class lamps with red lenses were considered markers when so used.

[@kellys.6047]

Interesting, I learned something. Thanks for another excellent video ❣️🚂🚂🚂❤️

[@MikeinUt]

Another correction. 5401’s class lights could be red, white or green. The red was used as a marker light for the rear of the train. Helper power would have white to the front, red to the rear when running light.

[@garysprandel1817]

Last traditional green to front and field red to rear markers was 89/90ish in the Chicago area with a GT freight on the IHB running a transfer into the former Milwaukee Bensenville yard. Most of the roads by me had long ago replaced traditional markers with refectior paddles or the single red flasher or roof top beacon ot completely dropped hacks for FRED so as I'm sitting st the crossing I'm wondering what thr heck that green light is I'm seeing down the track is. As it got closer I realized the train had a caboose and I was seeing the markers. In this case the markers remained until GT got rid of all cabooses as the markers were effectively a shade for a bulb that lit the step area with the green and red lenses mounted in it. Last traditional removable lamps were electric ones on a BN freight about 78ish.

[@QuorkQTar]

Let's initially also point out that it varies vastly by jurisdiction. To take Europe as an example, we in Germany have two types of movements: Running trains and shunting. They are very distinct and have different rule sets. Belgium, on the other hand, distincts between "major movement" and "minor movement" with a way more fluent transition between the two of them. (Note I'm not certified for Belgium and thus don't have the in-depth knowledge and might oversimplify). The whole class and marker lights brings us back to my comment under your very first Siberian Railway video. Over here, that's not what *makes* the train, but it's signals on the train. The UK seems to be somewhat closer to the US rules (historically unsurprising), I seem to remember they have some kind of marker light system going on, too. But in most of Europe the signals don't usually tell more than "three white lights = front of train" and "two red lights = end of train". In the past in Germany and maybe still in some countries the front signal could be omitted in daylight. The end signal is always there as it is absoultely crucial for track occupation (or rather, non-occupation) detection where it's done visually by signal box staff. At daylight in many jurisdictions (number declining) it can be two reflective plates with a white and red pattern (two white triangles to the left and right and two red triangles on top and bottom touching each other in the middle), too. Other than the UK I'm not aware of an European system where different types of trains are denoted by different train signals. 6:10 - Wait a second: What did and do you do when a train runs across several infrastructure operators? Agree on some interface? Stop and change marker lights? With all those company specific details in signalling and other operating rules it feels more like international railway operations in Europe than running a train in the single country that the US are. 7:55 - Weirdly complicated from my perspective, but it does make sense given that on your side of the pond, train crews do a lot of way side stuff, too. Here, it's neither my responsibility nor my capacity to tell another train if I'm in the clear or not. It's the railway signalling that does this. There are situations where I as the train driver check if I'm in the clear, yes, but then I'm giving the information to the signalman. It's them and only them who can give movement authority to the other train. And since my comment is a digression anyways, as always, here's the German perspective. Basically the definition is as follows: A train is a movement of - a consist of one or more regular railway vehicles - of which at least one is providing traction - running according to a timetable (not to be confused with a schedule: A timetable is, in very simple terms, a specific route description including speed limits for a train with specific parametres like brake power, top speed, length etc.). It can both run on the main line and just within one station. Certain special vehicles are permitted to be a train or to be part of a train. All other movements are shunting, which is limited to stations and within construction site limits (i.e. tracks that are temporarily out of service and have been declared a construction site. Including regular maintenance work).

[@Hyce777]

Happy to hear and learn the German reality of what a train is; and yeah, it is whacky! I'm sure anything that would've run over multiple roads would've had special rules. It would not have been common back in the day.

[@paradisepipeco]

This raises the question that asks if you can train a dog, can you dog a train? It is indeed a puzzlement, however when I tried to train a dog to dance the Makarena, my attempt yielded no success whatsoever. I discovered the possible reason being that a dog has two left feet. But I digress.

[@mdruben]

Train : a music band formed in San Francisco circa 1993. My contribution for the day. Now, back to my cave.

[@arizonalivesteamer9225]

If you want to really go down a rabbit hole what the FRA considers a “ train” vs “MOW equipment “ That’s how you end up with those MOW weed sprayers power by locomotives The GCOR definition Train One or more engines coupled, with or without cars, displaying a marker, and authorized to operate on a main track. A term that when used in connection with speed restrictions, flag protection, and the observance of all signals and signal rules also applies to engines.

[@360Nomad]

*Thomas just chillin' in the background*

[@phillyfan-182]

I was just about to say Thomas makes an appearance

[@truckinman86]

If I’m not mistaken, Amtrak still uses a red rear marker light at the back of their trains. Also, CN uses a red marker light for the DPU’s up in Canada.