Hydrogen Casting Burner Debrief

So thermal cracking propane into Hydrogen is the way to go for max temp furnace operation
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[@NOBOX7]

Does hydrogen burn orange? “Hydrogen burns with an invisible flame, but in practice, the impurities in the air make it appear orange. In the future we will likely add an odorant, just like we do with natural gas, as well as a colourant so flames can be seen and leaks can be detected by smell - just like natural gas,” says Raman.Jul 6, 2022

[@ansiviewer]

When I choose what to entertain a speaker, this KZbin Creator is on my personal preferance list with recommendation to all others.

[@polygon2744]

make a digital copy of that lab book. Keep a backup of all that wisdom.

[@UniCrafter]

A VERY general rule in chemistry/chemical engineering, is things don't like change. When the temperature of a gas is greatly increased, stronger/inert bonds get broken and replaced with weaker/more reactive bonds, in order to try to absorb the heat energy. For example in a Diesel engine, production of NOx. Nitrogen is generally inert, but at high temperatures will react with oxygen. Whats happening here is essentially the same, propane is less reactive than hydrogen, so when the temperature increases, one way the gases try to prevent getting hotter is to store that heat energy in more energetic bonds, i.e. creating hydrogen in this case.

[@johntherrian3480]

Your designs/inventions and creativity are second to none. Definitely Amazing.

[@NOBOX7]

Thanks John , i give the Glory to Christ Jesus

[@Anthonytheredneck]

This gentleman came a long way! This is a second youtube for me, but my previous account I've been following this gentalmen for quite some time!

[@TheZombieSaints]

Amazing stuff! I can't believe you melted drill bits! But if anyone could it's you mate. Gratz

[@ansiviewer]

Amazing experiment. I speculate a ceramic coating may preserve the chamber, preventing it from destroying itself. Also, find a way to cool the fuel injection system to prevent carbon buildup. You are awesome, keep it up!

[@hunnybunnysheavymetalmusic6542]

I was telling you about this reaction a long time ago. Coleman camping stoves use this principle to reduce white gasoline into methane while they run. This is why they have a tube running directly over the burner. The tube gets heated by the flames in those stoves, and it breaks the gasoline down, while releasing methane [and some hydrogen] and capturing carbon inside the tube. They are designed to be opened up and cleaned out.

[@ArchetypalCat]

@@hunnybunnysheavymetalmusic6542 interesting. Spent many moment pumping that little plunger on those Coleman stoves (and lanterns too :). Although i did of course realize that the tube you mention was heating the gas, i always (incorrectly) assumed it was merely to gassify and pressurize the white "gas" more, but had no thought toward it cracking. Old dogs can learn new things. Thx

[@carlhoward5469]

I think he may be referring to the Coleman Avocado heaters... very different design, but I don't think they're made anymore.

[@ArchetypalCat]

@@carlhoward5469 well, he specifically says "Coleman camping stoves" so we need some clarification.

[@StoneAndersonStudio]

I love your page. This is really amazing stuff, love seeing this research

[@victoryfirst2878]

YOU did it again NOBOX7. Thinking outside the box makes things happen. How about you make the inside tube with wavy vertical embossing lines to let the metal have a place to expand and make the tube out of inconel for heat resistance. Peace vf

[@josemanon6295]

Absolutely fascinating. I can't even imagine the "hell" inside that chamber while combustion. And all the thermal and chemical processes involved. True NASA test!! 🚀 Keep on 🔥 Cheers from Spain.

[@lesallison9047]

Yeah, you're making diamonds 💎 my friend 😂 👏👏👏👏 Fantastic experiment. ✌️💚🙏 🇬🇧

[@ryanbrown172]

Where did you learn this stuff? I want to learn it. I’ve always wanted to melt and cast steel. I’m also interested in where you get your crucibles.

[@NOBOX7]

well good buddy i have bin a what they call a nerd all my life , i read , i read the most boring PDF files on earth , i write things dont in lab books most important of all . I keep notes , i make predictions and i ponder . Also its kind important to drop out of school before they dumb you down . I dropped out at age 14 . Dont take all of my advise as im not familiar with the waters you sail . You have to get up and just start doing things . Just get up and do it thats the first step is to make a commitment to learn and not be lazy tv sponge

[@jakospence]

Good call about the hydrogen reducing the metal oxides- the carbon generated by the cracking of the hydrocarbons is also a powerful reducer at the temps you’re hitting!

[@NOBOX7]

Indeed , i forgot to mention that . Ive used charcoal on top of my crucible for that reason

[@davegeorge7094]

Put tin metal inside your preheat chamber. Molten tin pools change NG into H2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your WELCOME Bro!

[@kayakMike1000]

Does tin act as a catalyst for CH4 decomposition?

[@brianhutchinson7863]

I had gotten a ride home from a coworker and he had been telling me of a system that he and a class had made for running a car engine. He said it was using liquid propane gas and was heating it before injection into the engine. That was presumably from years before that night in 2008-9. He had also told me of investing much of his 401k in metal for the coming electric car market.

[@Pyrokartoffel]

Technical ceramics might suit well for the inner casing

[@kemahp]

As always ==>>TOP! And Yes , you have on hidrogen flame coming from thermolysis of H2O and CO2!

[@NOBOX7]

Good to hear from you , ho are things going in your country old friend ?

[@kemahp]

@@NOBOX7 If you are looking for the headquarters of the Global House of Fools, you will definitely find the headquarters in Germany!

[@ThroughAScannerInfrared]

I'm pondering making a hydrogen torch supplied by a simple lye bath with aluminum cans/foil reacting within. Looks like a prolific and long lasting reaction, i imagine powdered aluminum would give it a real punch..probably too much of one. Then after using it for fuel you can react the resulting sodium aluminate with sodium bicarbonate to make alumina..according to my reading today anyway Thundercougarfalconbird! haha love it. You're on a mission lately

[@ArchetypalCat]

Just an FYI in case you're not well aware already: be super careful with powdered aluminium - keep it well clear of *any* oxidizers otherwise you'll have a nice rather potent explosive. And the finer the mesh, the hairier it'll be. ...

[@hunnybunnysheavymetalmusic6542]

There is a mechanical way to build a carbon reduction coil using either machine tools, or 3D printing which can be removed, cleaned, and replaced without any trouble for the users, but it would not be cheap. My best guess on how to clean a coil full of carbon would be to heat the coil with a low volume of pure O2 to burn it out. If you can make a fitting to adapt an oxygen tube [with a hose barb maybe, and such that it can screw onto the end of a normal oxygen hose [the green side of a red-and-green oxyacetylene supply hose] and put a very regulated amount of oxygen in there, it should be possible to gently burn the carbon out of the tube without damaging the tube.

[@tullgutten]

To clean out carbon you might try to use a strong and hot LYE solution to flush it. Shouldn't do any harm to the stainless steel but the brass might be damaged, don't think it will do much damage tho. Use Lye a lot as a car mechanic to clean out Diesel Particulate Filters and EGR on cars.

[@HyperspacePirate]

i bet you could get it even hotter by having a completely separate propane system pre-heat the incoming air to red hot temperature before it reacts with the hydrogen

[@NOBOX7]

394,273.5 BTU or 18.3 LB/hr 115.5 Kw Guys , Carbon is also a reducing agent but it cannot reduce metal the way we saw that i know of . Maybe it can do some reducing on top of molten metal but on flakes of metal this stuff was likely reduced by a gas . And for the people saying its not hydrogen i suggest doing some research like i did , I am getting blown up by amature chemist . Methane does not need a catalyst to thermally decompose but carbon does act as a catalyst as cited in the Scholarly article on Thermal cracking of methane . Hydrogen is a reducing agent .

[@ArchetypalCat]

Great work, Bro ! I know and appreciate that you're trying to do the right thing by showing your work and backing things up with fact, but appeasing those wannabe chemists shouldn't amount to more than a one liner like "for those of you who think that xy&z isn't pd&q, please go do your homework." For those of us who understand what you are doing - and moreover, may well want to replicate your work (or purchase such a unit if you build a few extras), it is simply a waste of time to have to deal with these arm chair viewers. If they can't even bother to Google something, I seriously doubt they'll get off their duffers and experiment for themselves. One last bit, and I'll cease my ranting. Think of it this way: if they had made an educated argument, or had tried something like you did but got different results, then, yes, a place should be made for open and *productive* discussion. But when they don't, I for one don't want to see you having to take out your precious time to repudiate the stupid and lazy. I don't think it would be too far afield to say that many of us here would much rather you devote your time to more research, more experimentation and testing than dealing with the goofy. Thank you for your efforts and for presenting this to us. I've researched many burner designs and built a few, but nothing has come near the capacity of your newest. One thing you might consider is producing the parts and having a kit unit, or perhaps sell the most difficult to produce components. ciao

[@MadScientist267]

First it would be useful to express energy notation correctly. Then I'll consider everything else said.

[@NOBOX7]

@@ArchetypalCat Thankyou sir you are so right , i am a fool for grasping a the wind

[@ArchetypalCat]

@@NOBOX7 well I certainly would be the last to call you a fool. But like i did say, I understand and respect you want to honor all your viewers, even those that turn out to be blowing enough hot wind to potentially melt titanium. :) ... Looking forward to seeing what kind of gizmo mod you come up with for the coking build up. Very intreguing problem on a small scale of what happens on an industrial scale. I have been reading up on the common issues encountered in LPG Cracking. Perhaps, just perhaps, hints are to be found there. ... Thanks again for your efforts!

[@davegeorge7094]

Suggest a small compressed air HE surrounding the cracking chamber with TIN metal inside. No more melting of the SS. The CO created burns very hot to! Expect more carbon solids too.

[@ianbottom7396]

In tearing that down you might want to consider the likelihood that the stainless decomposing has left toxic hexavalent chrome compounds behind and take appropriate precautions against breathing it and ingestion

[@NOBOX7]

Agreed . My research showed that tig welders are not exposed to hex6 but mig welders are . The author of the document stated he believes hex 6 need temps higher than the melting point and possibly in the vaporization temp where hex 6 can be produced.. It was said that the energy needed to make hex6 with heat is hotter thatn the tig welding process . Per OSHA documentation However i will tell you this . In the power plants any time they grind on the 310 stainless steel burner nozzles they would put up hexavalent chromium signs by the guy doing the grinding .

[@ianbottom7396]

@@NOBOX7 mainly I mentioned it as some aren’t aware of the hazard or existence of hexavalent chrome. On a part time basis I have worked in power stations for 15+ years and it is only the last few years that there has been any awareness or precautions taken around hexavalent chrome. The other interesting thing is that it’s not always about welding or thermal / combustion processes, there have cases here where hexavalent chrome is present in high temperature / pressure flanged joints and also areas where these conditions are occurring around anti-seize products. Anyway take care, don’t get too much of that decomposition products on or in you

[@waynoswaynos]

I was thinking about the inner spiral also. And if the inner and outer tubes could be bolted not welded so cleaning could be easily performed. I know there’d be leakage but that might be okay. Then what if the H exited via some holes in the inner tube and the air was just injected in. Without having the jet where it is currently at the T joint. A much more simplified version.

[@waynoswaynos]

Also, I read some 1920s patents on castable refractory materials and Silicon Carbide was mixed with a carborising binder, such as molasses or pitch, and fired. If parts were made of materials like this, could also be worth a shot. I recently scored some large retired SiC crucibles from a local foundry. I gave up on the cold chisel and hammer to get through the inch thick wall and upgraded to diamond disk and angle grinder. I looked like a coal miner after 2 minutes. Then I was breaking them up with a sledge hammer so I can make new stuff from the material. Like rocks man. I was beating on them for way longer than expected. My mortar and pestle consist of a 5 inch thick steel puck inside a plastic tube with a 4lb sledge-hammer-head welded to a 1m long steel bar 20mm thick. The SiC was winning all the way. See US Patents: US1458724 & US1356939 Refractory composition

[@hunnybunnysheavymetalmusic6542]

You will probably need a much higher temp metal to handle the heat of this reaction.

[@morrsha]

Not sure if this process would generate hex chrome, which is highly carcinogenic. I deal with gas turbines that are basically 90% some type of stainless steel or another and one of the main concerns is this hexavalent chrome when doing maintenance that entails dealing with combustion chamber and downstream components. May be something to consider for you when having such intimate contact with these parts.

[@NOBOX7]

Good point ive seen those signs in powerpant outages by the burner heads . The guy was grinding though but still

[@FriendlyCynic]

15:45 Hydrogen Induced Embrittlement. Probably another reason to avoid hydrogen lol. Also the heat to prevent the walls of the combustion chamber from becoming plastic and the 130 psi blow a bubble like glass. Super neat. 17:31 Do you think the HIC could be breaking apart the boundary layers between grains and getting blown or knocked off in flakes?

[@NOBOX7]

Hello , great input . I believe i know what is happening from being a welder . If you weld stainless without back purging the oxygen travels through the metal and chrome oxide is liberated flaking off the metal . Then or at the same time the hydrogen is reducing the chromium oxide turning the flakes back into a brittle chrome plating like metal sheet . It feels just like Chrome plating flakes off the bumper of a car .

[@hunnybunnysheavymetalmusic6542]

In theory, you could put tiny seed diamonds in your fuel cracking cylinder and possibly make tiny synthetic diamonds. They proved you can use an oxyacetylene torch on a carbon rich setting and form diamonds.

[@trooper6308]

This is way cool stuff homie. Im sorta new in this field but do have a hho generator and want to make a viable hho torch or incinerator for a project that is not able to describe or broadcast on the internet. What is your desired result or what are you looking to achieve? Keep up your curiosity and dont let the shit talkers get you off your goals. Aim high and keep on keeping on homie. Aloha from Big Island Hawaii

[@D.MauroBaiardiTwerd]

Your workplace sounds like the Amazonía rainforest. ❓❓❓❓❓

[@NOBOX7]

Indeed but without the mosquitos

[@Yaivenov]

So, inconel replacement can for the next iteration?

[@robertfontaine3650]

Crazy hot to handle

[@AsGames-g1k]

yeah i see the carbon lol good to know u can burn it out with air. i worried u couldnt for some reason cuz u never mentioned it last video or rather i think u mentioned burning out the carbon buildup elsewhere just by running the air where was already (not in the cracking section)

[@AsGames-g1k]

should get some great sparks EDIT: itll prolly burn clean but the initial burst out should be cool

[@rooey4193]

That bulge in the pipe is crazy, seems almost seconds from complete rupture. I don’t want to imagine the fire ball from a hole opening in the combustion chamber at 2500kpa I had a thought about the condition of the inside of the pipe. Do you think because you are running so much gas you have a decent amount of ethyl mercaptan in entering the “cracking chamber” possibly being decomposed into hydrogen sulphide gas causing this odd “corrosion” It would seem impossible for the cracking chamber to deform so much and no particles go down stream into the nozzle. It could be getting partial blockages occasionally causing pressure to spike, clear the line and bludge the container. Once bludged to I imagine it would exponentially get worse being a hot spot in the burner Do you have a ball park on what pressures you are running through the burner?

[@NOBOX7]

40 psi maybe less

[@wellscampbell9858]

Question, out of curiosity (and maybe some laziness) what do the papers say about how exo- or endothermic the cracking process is? I.e. does the cracking process generate any heat?

[@lapino2v]

Endothermic obvious 🫡

[@AEX_technologies]

Try using a acoustic resonance ingnitor/ injector system it will simplify the system alot with the ingnition, and will give a high choked flow and, resonance for the fuel preheating. the fuel and the air at once. The hot air will stop it from carbon building and try premixing the flow and a more even shear flow, shower head injection. a bunch of 3 mm tubes 20 each. So your making ethane and methane gas, now if u get to 1000 degrees and higher u could prevent it, by flowing extra fuels like ethanol and other hot burning fuels to assist the pyrolysis.

[@WeberMachineWorks]

cool stuff

[@travispluid3603]

I wonder how long you could have run this before it either clogged- or melted into a puddle from its own heat production.

[@Vibe77Guy]

Rather than a spiral rib, just wrap it in tubing. Ceramic core burn chamber. Might serve as both vaporizer and cracking region in one coil.

[@NOBOX7]

Im worried about the tube clogging , the large chamber was in hopes of giving us some decent run time before a carbon clean out was needed

[@Vibe77Guy]

@@NOBOX7 Valid concern. One that will need to be addressed at some point in any event. Wrap the burn nozzle with a tubing size that will maintain performance for an hour or so. A sandblast flush, between uses to clear the carbon deposits. Or possibly an oxygen flush while still hot.

[@NOBOX7]

@@Vibe77Guy Yes i did consider a 3/8 tube but the one on hand was to thin . Great input though thanks for the comments

[@Enonymouse_]

You should ventilate the rear of the combustion cone to enhance the venturi effect, it would burn hotter.

[@NOBOX7]

If i gather what your suggesting experiments suggest otherwise The pumping action becomes to excessive in some cases causing a flame out . See my fat man burner video for better detail .

[@NOBOX7]

In some cases this does work but for maximum power the diameter must be optimized so as to not pump to much air causing the fire ball to be blown out of the barrel

[@davegeorge7094]

Find a circa 2010 turbo engine flamebox with built in air cooling and STATE of the ART METAL construction....Inconel like.🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@helipilotuh1]

You need to find a 3d metal printing manufacturer to make you a can out of some high temp metal, like they are using for firearm suppressors.

[@CodyRoach-pu1mp]

I know from coking and cracking plastics and gases that a LOT OF THE CARBON CAN LOOK LIKE METAL and will be super flat and in layers You should try to combust it and see if its actually metal or weird carbons

[@eastindiaV]

So, my understanding, is that you take propane, run it around the chamber, and back into the front, back into the chamber, and then ignited... the hot combusting gas then goes into another tube, where it is combined with oxygen, using a valve Which reduces the propane to Hydrogen, which continues to combust in the presence of oxygen, which flows around the jet stream, out of the combustion chamber... Which could be used to melt iron? With a gas grill propane tank... nice

[@gunsunited7894]

The propane doesn't ignite because there is no oxygen. It decomposes to hydrogen and carbon which happens in a chamber inside the combustion chamber

[@JDanielsOffGrid]

Curious, will a magnet pick up any of that debris.

[@robertfontaine3650]

Inconel or titanium get expensive fast. Needs some kind insulation or cooling

[@brendansullivan4131]

What was your consumption rate of propane?

[@NOBOX7]

Ill get it later today , i think it was 37 - 23 Lb but i gotta check , in a 50 minute time frame

[@NOBOX7]

394,273.5 BTU or 18.3 LB/hr 115.5 Kw

[@brendansullivan4131]

@@NOBOX7 wow a lot more fuel than i expected. Expensive burn. ... Thanks for sharing your knowledge

[@seregajudin6769]

Hello. Nice work!! But some shit like H2 + C is wrong. Propane (C3H8) + t500 C = CH4 (methane) + C2H2 (acetylene) And air preheating is working too.

[@NOBOX7]

We are heating to 1000 c so the methane is thermaly cracked

[@NOBOX7]

I researched this project before and aftr doing this . I found many lab experiments where all they did was heat methane in a metal chamber to 1,1150 C and they got pure hydrogen go look it up . You and about 5 other people are really beating me over the head with this saying its not hydrogen . Problem is you CANT melt steel with a methane furnace unless your using enhanced oxygen

[@seregajudin6769]

​​@@NOBOX7Sorry, bro. Are you wrong again )) Methane cracking (without pressure and catalyst) at 1500 oC. If you really heat gas to this temperature - all brass fitting will be melted. But, your right. In fact, melting steel WITHOUT AIR PREHEATING +500-600oC is not possible. But it's no hydrogen's flame. It's acethylene - more powerfull gas than propane. Nice work!! And respect!

[@davegeorge7094]

Idea: ultrasonic or/and water to break and burn the carbon clog problem.

[@ZeusJuri]

Why not add some water to the gas? At 800°C, water decomposes into (O2 and H2) plus Carbon = CO + H2 + CH4. Maybe it would help in carbon reduction.

[@MadScientist267]

Takes *heat* to do that 🤦‍♂️

[@m3sca1]

graphite, i think you might have grown some

[@billdoor9038]

How fast does this use a 20lb tank of propane?

[@NOBOX7]

about 1.5 hours

[@billdoor9038]

@NOBOX7 alr, thanks

[@The_Foolish_Fool]

How long did it take to melt the drills? Will this be up on your ebay store?

[@ArchetypalCat]

@@NOBOX7 whoa ! Looks like I'm gonna need to upgrade to a 1,000 gal farm tank :P

[@Besharm-d5n]

Ceramic next?

[@FullSpeed_only]

You were burning "SynGas" which is H2 & CO. (EDIT: NO RELEVANT AMOUNT OF WATER OR OXYGEN MEANS NO CO CAN BE FORMED) Otherwise we wouldn’t see much of a Flame. Unfortunately the Metal and Metal Oxides make it difficult to weight the Carbon Buildup you got. Would be pretty interesting to do a rough calculation against your Propane Consumption to see the Rate and Percentage of the Waste Product.

[@NOBOX7]

Thanks for the input but no CO production was taking place in this reaction . I am very well versed in the chemical kinetics of syngas production . CO production requires CO2 and or oxygen plus the carbon .No oxygen is present inside the combustor . Hydrogen flames are not invisible you have bin misled . Yes in brazen day light hydrogen flames are hard to see in some instances if lit from a naked spout but for the most they are orange red in color just like the flame in the video . Im not sure why i have so many people saying this isnt hydrogen LOL . Its likely 70 to 90 % hydrogen the rest is methane and ethylene . Methane is completely converted to hydrogen at 1,150 Deg C . The inner combustion can was glowing bright yellow . Yellow metal is about 1,080 C > also the metal itself colors the flame a bit when it gets this hot .

[@FullSpeed_only]

@@NOBOX7 You are absolutely right about the Lack of CO. I spewed complete Bullshit. There is just a theoretical Amount of Oxygen from Moisture in the Bottle, nothing of Relevance.

[@contemporiser]

Add titanium inner sleve

[@AsGames-g1k]

you should make a short about this u can add some real hype to this project to attract some "normies" u dont even gotta overdo it cuz its already sick lol

[@AsGames-g1k]

add sand with the propane lmao

[@docr8197]

In a word "ceramic" chamber

[@NOBOX7]

3d printers can now do this out of ceramic so maybe it would work without cracking ?

[@mace41canuck]

Hook it into a engine see what kind of mileage

[@KromBuilds]

im Asgames if u wanna see just how out of touch i am

[@jamesmclaughlinprimitivele4587]

Carbon build up is inefficient combustion also all hydrocarbons burn as hydrogen and carbon in the flame.

[@NOBOX7]

Then why dont they just give the flame temp for hydrogen for every fuel ? what collage are you in ?

[@wellscampbell9858]

@jamesmclaughlinprimitivele4587 Maybe, but not in this case. If all hydrocarbons burned as H2 and C, then combustion temps wouldn't be as different as they are. Also combustion efficiency isn't the main goal here, max temperature, or more specifically transfer of heat such that the furnace reaches a higher temperature, is the goal.