Hydrogen storage in powder : Breakthrough or Busted??

Hydrogen is not easy to store. To get it into a manageable form it either has to be highly compressed or cryogenically chilled, both of which are expensive and energy hungry processes. Now two separate and completely unconnected teams claim to have worked out how to store hydrogen in powder form. So is this a genuine breakthrough or yet more wishful thinking?
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Research links
New Atlas article
newatlas.com/energy/mechanoch...
Deakin Research paper link
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EPRO Advance Technology (EAT)
www.epro-atech.com/si-to-gene...
C&EN article
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[@cg21]

I love that you refrain from being overly hyped and stay sceptic 🙂

[@johndoyle4723]

Thanks, all very interesting. As a Chemical engineer, I am very wary of widespread use of Hydrogen in a domestic environment, but I suppose if Petrol were invented today it would also be considered unwise to drive around with a tank full of low flash liquid in a vehicle with limited electrical and thermal protection.

[@jhoughjr1]

Lol no. Petrol is not at 700 atmospheres.BIG difference in danger.

[@jhoughjr1]

Also I have snuffed out cigarettes in a cup of gas.

[@johnlarson111]

@@jhoughjr1 lolh gasoline at one atmosphere is highly flammable. remember the 72 pinto

[@acmefixer1]

@@jhoughjr1 Yes, the gasoline/petrol is much more dangerous than hydrogen. Hydrogen is so light that it rapidly rises and the flames rise well above the point of release. Gasoline flows onto the ground, under everything and burns up everything as it burns.

[@jhoughjr1]

@@johnlarson111 you might want to retake physics if you think the pinto fires are anything near what an equal energy volume of 700 ATM hydrogen will do. Kinda why incendiaries are not regulated like explosives are.

[@tombeitels]

The oxidation of metals (Silicon) with water can actually be used as hydrogen "storage". Atm I'm also involved on similar research but with the focus on Iron. But indeed the goal should also be to have a process to turn the oxidated metal back into its pure form (called reduction). Very recent this paper ("Natural iron ores for large-scale thermochemical hydrogen and energy storage") was published where they closed that cycle when using iron.

[@PoseidonDiver]

Howcom Iron? Does it have anything to do with finding an alternative to using CO to remove the oxygen from Iron during the production of steel?

[@carlbrenninkmeijer8925]

God stored a lot of hydrogen in the oceans, it is wet, does not burn, can be stored and transported.

[@markmuir7338]

This would be great for seasonal storage of solar power. 1MWh (3.6GJ) per house would do in mild climates like Southern California. It's fairly cheap to over-size the solar installation such that it will produce enough excess throughout the year to be able to last out the winter deficit. Lithium ion batteries are great for day/night cycle storage, but way too expensive for seasonal storage.

[@alantupper4106]

I've been focusing on the magnesium oxidation route, specifically in the combustion realm. It's fascinating stuff, for a metal on fire at approximately 3000K.

[@robertb6889]

So question about iron: it’s quite abundant which is an advantage, but isn’t it quite energy intensive to recover to base metal? Or are you looking at hydrate versus oxide cycling?

[@OmegaGamingNetwork]

As with all potential new energy technology I find it endlessly fascinating. However the more "buzzwords" they use to describe it about how it can revolutionize things the more cynical I become about that particular product.

[@docostler]

The old "Veracity is inversely proportional to hyperbole" formula.

[@PiefacePete46]

@Dekoth-OGN : You know the saying: "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!". 🥴 😋

[@tonywilson4713]

As an engineer I find that a very good way to describe it.

[@jeb-zf4un]

What happens to hydrogen if it escapes as a gas. Is it possible that losses of hydrogen to space due to industrial processes could be problematic to the planet. Has anybody done a risk analysis.

[@josidasilva5515]

Look into ionization with pwm 10kV, 3kHz on atomized water.

[@audigit]

Your channel is always a great time spent watching for new potential develop. Thank you!

[@vanmore5124]

Just a few days ago in Germany they announced that they have successfully stored hydrogen in a paste form which is ten times as energy dense as lithium batteries.

[@curryattack8985]

Yup. And then they woke up from their dream and went to the pub.

[@rogerreiner1846]

Yup, probably mixed beer with toothpaste and came to a whole new solution.@@curryattack8985

[@ArielYaar]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerpaste#:~:text=Powerpaste%20is%20a%20magnesium%2D%20and,%2DGesellschaft%20in%20Dresden%2C%20Germany.@@curryattack8985

[@ThirtytwoJ]

There was a recent company talking about embedding hydrogen in a bimetallic tape and using laser to store and release it.. looked like a old music casette. Advantage being dry and low pressure. Personally i dont care as long as someone makes a working ironman suit with it or i can drop one in my el camino.

[@v.e.7236]

Sitting here, across the pond, enjoying my AM hot chocolate, while listening to the latest tech info is my way of relaxing the body and stimulating the mind in one step. Thanks for the excellent content.

[@JustHaveaThink]

Wonderful! I'm delighted you enjoy the videos :-)

[@garynapolitano1270]

I absolutely love just having a think watching your channel!

[@benrasmussen9878]

I really enjoy this presentation. Thank you. I was involved with a group in San Diego area, we were working on a system that could generate hydrogen as a supplement in inject into the fuel rail on a CNG vehicle. The concept is very cool, but we ran out of funding to continue the efforts. But that would take care of the storage and shipping issues at the same time. I also enjoy the details of the "Ball Milling " process. Another company I know about uses a similar process to make a small particulate to add into the product, with very good insulation properties. Simple and cost friendly.

[@danburnes722]

Nice job Dave with the explanations and animations in the beginning. Skepticism is very appropriate when it comes to the thought of ubiquitous hydrogen. However, if the right technology comes along, we should be open to trying it out. This applies to all unique energy solutions, reducing GHGs, and using different forms of energy.

[@danielrvilla]

Thank you for your fantastically informative videos - I really appreciate them!

[@dogzpad]

Giddy from excitement, indeed. Nice turn of phrase, deftly applied, brother. Keep this up, you’ll be famous.

[@GeaVox]

LOVE your work sir! THANK YOU! Just donated via PayPal

[@ryantaylor1142]

I really like how you handled that last product at the end

[@alfonsomunoz4424]

Yours is a GREAT channel. Good job on the researchers at Deaken.

[@JustHaveaThink]

Thank you. I appreciate that!

[@HeloisGevit]

@@JustHaveaThink I've watched several of your videos, and was surprised that I hadn't subscribed yet, so I went ahead and did that.

[@feraudyh]

I think it's spelled Deakin.

[@larry8811]

We already have an excellent method of storing, transporting, and using hydrogen -- it's called ammonia (NH3). Easy to store, transport, and use in a liquid form, all safely. Just ask any farmer who's been using it for many years. Plus, there already exists a vast network of ammonia pipelines. Even today an ordinary gasoline automobile engine can be made to run on ammonia with minor modifications.

[@richdobbs6595]

The SI+ seems like a complicated non-rechargable battery. Might have a niche application, but I doubt that you can manufacture silicon cheap enough that this a practical mainstream application.

[@hsavietto]

Do you know what else works as a non-rechargeable battery? Gasoline.

[@spitfireresearchinc.7972]

It's worse than you think. How is silicon made from silicon dioxide? You guessed it- by reacting SiO2 with coal to make Si and carbon dioxide. Voila, a new method to use coal even LESS efficiently than ever before!

[@richdobbs6595]

@@hsavietto Yeah, but gasoline is cheap both in energy cost and in capital. Unless you have a way to economically manufacture Si using interruptable power this is a non-starter

[@richdobbs6595]

@@spitfireresearchinc.7972 Yeah, because not only do you have to use coal as the carbon source, but it requires electricity too! Winning!

[@JasonOlshefsky]

I'm also curious if they can show what it takes to "close" this cycle. I'm not an expert, but I do know that SiO2 to Si alone is an energy-intensive process, so can the energy from "Si+ + H2O" even hit the energy level of SiO2 to Si-even ignoring conversion losses. My guess is "not a chance by a several orders of magnitude" but I'd be happy to be wrong about that.

[@harveysoicher2522]

Thanks for your down to earth and well explained topic about H2 extraction and storage.

[@kennethstealey1311]

Another great episode. Thanks very much.

[@JustHaveaThink]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@pomodorino1766]

Thanks for another informative video!

[@rogerthomas7040]

I like the greater focus on context over hype in your reporting.

[@silvergreylion]

@ 8:55 : You don't "charge up" a fuel cell. You power it by supplying the fuel it was built for. Secondly, I did some calculations on the amount of Si+ needed: for every kilogram of hydrogen, you'd need roughly 7 kg of silicon and 9 kg of water, leaving behind 15 kg of SiO2. Edit: I did some quick calculation in my head at first, which was off by factor 10. Sorry, shit happens. Let's say you'd want to have 3 kg of hydrogen available in a fuel cell EV. Enough for 333 km or 207 mile range. That would mean lugging around 16*3 = 48 kg of silicon and water, which would turn into 45 kg of silicon dioxide (and 3 kg of hydrogen released), plus whatever it's stored in, easily 50 kg total. Then there's the problem of regenerating the silicon, which probably involves reaction between carbon and silicon dioxide, which defeats the whole purpose, since you'll be releasing huge amounts of carbon dioxide from that process. It could also be SiO2 + 4 H2 = SiH4 + 2 H2O, and then splitting SiH4 into silicon and hydrogen. Either way, proportionally, it looks like a huge mess, both chemically and energetically.

[@OffGridSupplies]

At 40KWh/Kg for H2 your 450Kg of Silicon dioxide works out at about 2KWh/Kg ignoring fuel cell losses. This isn't hugely different to an internal combustion engine running on petrol. An energy density of about 2MWh/ton isn't terrible for static power generation considering how inert the silicon dioxide is although I'd be a tad careful with the feedstock silicon material. Certainly an interesting idea, I hope it works out.

[@hendman4083]

A Tesla S battery pack comes in at around 750 Kg, so 480 Kg of silicon and water does not sound too bad.

[@silvergreylion]

@@hendman4083 Was off by factor 10 for a quick calculation I did at first, so it's actually only 48 kg initially. Much more manageable for vehicles, but still a chemical and energetic mess.

[@wallaceanature2788]

In any case, it probably more useful for roadside refill stations to have the Si+ installation, and from their fill up vehicle HFCs, rather than having hydrogen stored in pure form at the refill stations.

[@SunnySzetoSz2000]

I think plane is the only good use on hydrogen

[@StormyJoeseph]

Thank you for the video! I think solar thermal with a highly insulated thermal battery utilizing a large seebeck / Peltier array for direct current electricity used in hydrogen and oxygen electrolysis of sea water stored in metal hydride is the answer we're all looking for. I'm currently prototyping this right now with a proprietary heat pipe, battery and Seebeck array. It would be nice to have financial support but I have no idea where to begin soliciting such funds. It's difficult paying everything out of pocket. I have no idea why large corporations have not produced a commercially available product equivalent years ago.

[@crawkn]

There are many practical uses for silica, so it might be worth collecting for resale, but it could also be useful around the home for some purposes. If that's the only byproduct of the system's energy application I'd say it's a miracle product. But at this point I don't even know from the portion of the demo shown whether the reaction is endothermic or exothermic, or how much energy must be input to create the powder. If it is the same amount as comes out, it would be an efficient storage system for energy, although not an energy source.

[@brianmead5102]

Thank you find your vids very informative

[@keacoq]

Interesting video. Finding ways of storing hydrogen simply is evidently very useful. For either method, some order of magnitude numbers would be helpful. What energy density in the powder. How much SiO2 per kWh of energy released? The Hong Kong plan seemed to be jumping ahead to applications. I suspect that they need to focus on the process of transfoming hydrogen to and from powder form.

[@mechadense]

10:21 - Looking forward to this. NiTi bases metal hydrides are awesome as they are so safe you can't even make them go BOOM if you want to. They just freeze over. What's needed is economy of scale.

[@gamingtonight1526]

1.5C+ by 2030, 2C+ 2040-2050... Possible 4ft+ sea rise before 2040, so good luck with this. We really need it - and a lot more - quick!

[@garrybarbuto7265]

Enjoyed your video. I completed my Masters Degree in the early 1980s and my project was the production of hydrogen via a PEM cell and storage in a metal hydride. At the time the Hydrogen Economy was a bit of a pipe dream and most people laughed it off. Here we are 40 years later and it is full on. Yes, storage is the key issue with H2. Good luck and well done !

[@sindisiwecindy4378]

Hi Sir. I would like to engage with you further on this topic, as my current PhD Project is based on metal hydride storage.

[@rtfazeberdee3519]

Very interesting, hope they come to fruition soon.

[@hvxcolors396]

Looking at the comments I think I should start a dedicated channel on hydrogen. This is one of the most amazing topics with endless stream of inventions.

[@JustHaveaThink]

Go for it!

[@eugen-m]

Metallic hydrogen maybe ? 🤔🤔🤔

[@koenwerf84]

i truly believe history will look favorable upon this channel. The content is amazing in quality, and the soothing delivery offers solace to the mindboggling challenges we face with climate change. Thank you!

[@DataSmithy]

So, as most of us know, the best way to store and transport hydrogen is to convert it to some other molecule, like methane or ammonia. Regarding the silicon solution from Epro, I am guessing that most silicon in the world is actually mined as silicon dioxide, and so, I am wondering 1) how energy intensive is it to produce pure silicon in the first place (removing the oxygen), and 2nd, how much energy is used to produce the super porous powder from the silicon. I am sure anyone in the solar cell industry should be able to tell you the cost of pure silcon blocks. However, I do like the fact that silicon dioxide is decidedly a non-toxic by-product.

[@jamesmansion2572]

For me the second of these is very interesting. Even if it is quite energy inefficient, it provides a way to capture the capability to create hydrogen, which provides (in effect) a way to capture that in a desert or offshore location, and transport it to where hydrogen is needed.

[@deaninchina01]

If it’s energy inefficient then it’s a dead end. We need energy systems which generate net energy, not things like green hydrogen which are massive net energy consumers. Where is all the energy going to come from? It’s THE reason we use fossil fuels. It produces a vast net energy. And it also produces the thousands of chemical products which we use in everyday life. Plastics, medicine but to name two.

[@hollismccray3297]

I think I'd rate myself as skeptical but curious about both of these methods. Futher research is definitely called for.

[@angelusmendez5084]

Really interesting, thanks!'👏

[@manoo422]

GKN Hydrogen would definitely be worth a look, especially any info on what they are using, for those of us looking at long term H2 storage.

[@falklumo]

I looked at their site. From what I glanced, they build containers comprised of 3 modules: Electrolyzer, Fuel Cell, and Metal Hydride H2 Storage at 40 bar. So you get a battery replacement at presumably lower cost and weight. The things weight between 5 ton and 30 ton though ...

[@manoo422]

@@falklumo So not exactly aimed at home use! They are probably not going to release details of the storage medium and even if they did its probably not going to be easily available! So the whole thing is largely pointless.

[@skierpage]

@@manoo422 The dream of every battery alternative is that the vast tank or cavern full of material X is so much cheaper than the number of batteries to store the same amount of energy that the cost of the equipment to get energy in and out of material X (which for a a rechargeable battery is simply a positive and negative terminal) and the round-trip efficiency (which is 95+% for a lithium-ion battery) becomes insignificant. The problem is proving it. "If we have a huge pile of silicon/find a big enough salt dome to store the hydrogen/insulate an enormous block of thermal storage/raise a heavy enough weight/build two huge tanks for a flow battery/... our process will be cheaper than installing megawatt•hours of batteries!" Sure, maybe.

[@lesbendo6363]

Thank you for the explaination. 🇨🇦

[@DanT10]

I own an EV. I do not see that Hydrogen is viable until these issues are worked out. Right now the only way that hydrogen is produced is by using fossil fuels. I hope that they do solve these issues. Great video!

[@BeekeeperBill]

Lots of things react with water to release hydrogen. The trick is making them cheaply and cleanly. Presumably the Si+ people have some energy intensive processes starting with SiO2.....

[@dewiz9596]

Always good when I get my “Sunday Morning Fix” on a Monday. ..

[@kikeb1534]

sonds to good to be true the second company but it is necessary to take in acound the cost of this special Si or the cost of a circular economy. Great video!

[@extropiantranshuman]

0:05 it's ok you give us every hydrogen innovation that's worth something and we (or at least I) will listen.

[@m.t.cronin2828]

Seeing so much research into new energy sources and the varied applications made me realize that we're seeing an "Energy Revolution" much akin to what was experienced back in the late 19th century.

[@rogerreiner1846]

Just another segment of the overall tech revolution which includes AI, etc. (Some call it "industrial", but I call it "tech".)

[@noelgaler7692]

I can vaguely remember an episode of 'Tomorrow's World' in my youth, where raymond Baxter and James Burke regularly showcased new technology. One of their articles concentrated on hydrogen as a fuel and tackled the problem of storage. The answer was to use 'ordinary' looking cylinders, full of fine zinc powder. The hydrogen was then supposed to be readily absorbed onto the surface of the powder. 'Readily', as in it did not require high pressures or low temperatures. It was supposed to hold a vast amount of H2. Also, from a safety perspective, they demonstarted that if ripped open in an accident, the tanks would release the H2, but only enough to burn slowly, rather like a gas barbeque ! Can anyone else remember this ? There are vast respositories of old TV programmes on KZbin and elsewhere, but so far I can't find it....

[@rogerreiner1846]

I guess it depends on how old one is in order to compare youth. There is another version of this already being developed that uses completely recyclable, abundant, natural, lightweight, iron ore powder (such as biotite iron), and they appear to be doing exactly what you identify by using more expensive zinc. I'm not sure what causes this to be usable as it must be heated to around 200 degrees prior to releasing the hydrogen, but that then allows it to be slowly fed into the firing chamber as needed. Perhaps they use some kind of a hybrid engine that kicks in when the temp reaches the desired level?

[@alfabsc]

That is what the world needs: all natural, organic, cruelty free hydrogen! Keep thinking! Love your videos.😉

[@niclaskarlin]

Remember 'free range'!

[@vanrozay8871]

It's hard to believe that with all the energy used in each step, a form of hydrogen ready for use won't cost too much compared with, say, batteries.

[@josephmitchelljr.4354]

thank you love you shows

[@darianballard2074]

Very interesting. Good video.

[@lii1Il]

Nice! TY!

[@user-vq4mt4zd4e]

great content thanks

[@JugglinJellyTake01]

Remember for these processes they provide different qualities of heat that can be used for other processes and district heating. Longannet coal fired power station sat opposite the BP/Ineos refinery for 40 years and they never used the heat from the power station to power petrochemical processes such as fractional distillation that would have saved a lot of money and fuel and increased the efficiency of Longannet to 80% or 90%.

[@DrakeN-ow1im]

Heresy!! Competion, not cooperation, is the religion of the corporate world.

[@humanperson5134]

I think it was in the 1990's when a Canadian professor said he was working on a "Hydrogen Log" that would be bought at 'gas stations' to power either a fuel-cell OR flex-fuel ICE vehicle.

[@skierpage]

I saw a demonstration of a hydrogen fuel cell car around 1998 powered by golf-ball sized nitrides that released hydrogen. Then, as now, it wasn't clear how much energy it took to remanufacture the magic nitride containing hydrogen.

[@rogerphelps9939]

The suggestion that it would power an ICE engine with efficiency only a third of that of a fuel cell rather casts doubt on the whole enterprise.

[@My-Nickel]

Thank you sir!

[@JustHaveaThink]

You are welcome!

[@steenhansen5625]

I remember several years ago, a Danish company developed a tablet for storing hydrogen in, but I believe they ended up focusing on removing some polutant from diesel motors instead, as presumably the market for using these tablets to provide hydrogen for electricity production in fuel cells at that time wasn't there. I can't remember though what the company was called, only that they evolved from the DTU in Lyngby, Denmark.

[@johndododoe1411]

I think they became Aminex/Adamine, a system for storing the chemicals that VW omitted in their fake "clean diesel" products. I also notice that the small Danish network of Hydrogen fuel stations seems to be dismantled. At least the station in Gladsaxe is gone.

[@rogerphelps9939]

It was a scam.

[@anonnymouse2402]

The Si method is a chemical reaction, not a storage technique. There are many materials that will react with water to release hydrogen, so this is hardly new. It's main advantage is that the waste product is harmless, and can be thrown in the trash. While it is a relatively safe way of generating hydrogen, it is hardly green, as it will take a lot of energy to make, and can only be used once.

[@Kevin_Street]

Thank you for another fantastic video! You explain these things so well it's almost like learning subliminally. Hydrogen powder... Or rather, boron nitride powder that captures hydrogen inside its molecular structure. It sounds like an example of the lateral thinking Dr. de Bono liked to teach: a chemical substance stored inside another chemical, but by the use of geometry instead of chemistry. As a concept it's pretty neat. And most importantly it sounds like you can store a decent amount of hydrogen in it. Still couldn't use it for hydrogen powered planes because it's too bulky, but maybe it could fuel other kinds of vehicles? I don't know. You'd have to radically rethink engine technology for something like this. As a means of storing electrical energy it might work quite well. I'm trying to imagine a home boiler or furnace powered this way, and it be quite different, not a retrofit of existing natural gas technology. You'd have to deliver the powder to the house as needed, then take away the spent boron nitride for recharging. The EAT proposal sounds rather amazing. The only inputs are carefully engineered silicon particles and water! Right away you can see it has the advantage of being almost infinitely storable. All you need to do is keep a supply of inert silicon powder next to your backup generator or whatever, then when it's needed pour the powder in there along with some water. It'll never go bad. And unlike the other powder you don't have to heat this one to several hundred degrees, which should simplify the design of the machinery that uses it and lower the cost of operation. Having leftover sand would be a problem if it's powering something that's in continuous use, but if it's just intended for backup power that wouldn't be so bad. Of course this assumes the silicon can be produced economically and you don't need mountains of the stuff to get a useful amount of electricity. Time will tell.

[@skierpage]

Scrap the home furnace or boiler, forget about the inefficient hydrogen detour, and instead send electrons to the house to run a heat pump that's far more efficient.

[@danielmadar9938]

Thank you

[@wlhgmk]

A small amount of very fine Si02 is a valuable addition to garden soils.

[@dannmarks]

Subject was interesting. Beach sand can be put out in the backyard. Especially if you have kids. I have heard sand is becoming scarce though? Maybe this can use the old sand from the Sahar. I love your presentations skills. I watch everything I can find with you presentations.

[@martincotterill823]

Great video, Dave! Powered hydrogen, just add water, who would've thought

[@JustHaveaThink]

Cheers Martin. Whether it'll work in the real world is an entirely different question though...

[@jims6498]

@@JustHaveaThink I disagree as to powering small loads the camper buyer's are always looking for weighs of hauling hydrogen. Hybrid EUC's also need this type of constant wattage even though they are maximumally inefficient in micromobility land but also far more of a bargain then a horse and able to travel at car speeds! They use less energy then a car as they are so light. Cars are slippery but still so heavy!!! Micromobility needs a clean powertrain that has certain characteristics but the cost of the energy being what grid requires is not even close to important. And obviously EUC's will become more efficient over time as these high speeds become normal, clothing, angle of attack, yes obviously some sort of enclosure just for slipperyness is coming to euc's... i can't beleive how important a 'jacket' worn on high speed euc' will be to range!!! The turbulence helps peope lean forward of course but that is not critical. a fully enclosed EUC lol!!! Vertical slippery.. the air goes around wheel and body of rider only if prompted without turbulence.... this means that helmets etc. might already be extending range with the present forward leaning wedge not having rider above axle AT ALL. It needs to rise us up to provide space for air to flow under us clearly .... will the platforms we stand on rise with speed? The water can be reprocessed possibl on the vehicle it's not clear what's happening at all chemisty is not my thing yet. My point was not about EUC's but about tablets etc.. phablets on powder will rock even though zapbatt is promissing powerbank makers supply of scib boards and cells

[@rogerreiner1846]

Cars etc. are heavy because that is the way they are engineered with today's available materials. In the future someone will develop a means to mass produce graphene which will totally change everything. For example back when aluminum was first discovered, it was more valuable than gold, but today it is abundant. Airplanes, trucks, cars, etc. will all be magnitudes of strength stronger and much lighter than today. Combine all that with hydrogen power and we will all be traveling in the air on digital highways, thus reducing the amount of actual roadwork, bridges, etc. I still like horses though and would not rule them out in a pinch. @@jims6498

[@terrylane1492]

I like this alternative for H2 generation, because storage liquefied H2 is problematic as it diffuses through almost everything and is energy intensive. Metal Hydrides can store H2 in solid state, but tend to be quite heavy, precluding it from aviation. Graphene sheets may be the best method of storage I've seen to date if we can figure out how to mass produce it. I am very skeptical about the wide spread use of H2, but I would like to see the net energy production numbers.

[@brian1204]

After having read another article about how there is a coming shortage of sand for creating glass, it seems the SiO2 resultant from the Si+ process could be a part of that cycle as well as reprocessed into more Si+. As you say, though, it does sound too good to be true!

[@GilesBathgate]

The shortage is of a particular type of sand needed for building or glass making. The worlds deserts are full of silica sand.

[@DreadX10]

@@GilesBathgate I've heard that the ocean floor also contains some sand. And with a rising sea-level ..... ;-)

[@GilesBathgate]

@@DreadX10 That will be because the earths crust is 27.7% Si, with 60.6% of that being SiO₂...... 😂 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_crust

[@rogerreiner1846]

We are already living in a glass world so why not?

[@russrobinson2979]

Love these videos

[@jankeesterietscholten4442]

Could you find out why we do not seem to be able to mimic the natural system of storing hydrogen by coupling it to CO2. And freeing it when energy is required? I only can find that this process is too slow for industrial use. But I do not see why, since this is the way of nature and it is abundantly available in all living systems, both animal and plants. Thanks for the effort!

[@toscanese]

Very good analysis in this video, as always. I watched your previous videos on hydrogen and they were spot-on. Let me know if you want to analyze hydrogen from aluminium, as Bernie Zelvis was pointing out in the comments.

[@aredclwon]

I love how the Si+ is safe as long as it doesn't get in contact with water. so it's mogwai-safe. I'm pretty sure practical engineering made a whole series on how water knows it's place and that's why steel infrastructure never corrodes.

[@christophmartin5381]

Two years ago I bought a grand piano from a Professor near Stuttgart, he told me that they were developing a kind of gel or solid state compound that is gel like that could store hydrogen easily and safe. And it could be release very easy. He mentioned that is is very promising and will be a solution for the present hydrogen problem of hydrogen storage and " production" . Maybe it has something to do with it.

[@Techmagus76]

Difficult as gel is the standard ending of every second sentence in the area around Stuttgart. " Mir ham da scho wasch geiles am Start, gel."

[@christophmartin5381]

@@Techmagus76 😁 Well he was not natively from Stuttgart, so I guess he knows what he was doing. But if it was gel or a kind of solid state gel like material...? I am not a physician , it was a bit to advanced for me 😬😂

[@guesswho6038]

@@christophmartin5381 You probably mean this thing: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hWeynaKZm6umpc0

[@christophmartin5381]

@@guesswho6038 Yes maybe. Was just interesting what he told me. We had a discussion about energy density of batteries etc. , He told me that for cars batteries will be the tech of the future but hydrogen will be needed in many areas of the industry...

[@aldenconsolver3428]

A certain amount of care would be required for the powder after the hydrogen removal, since they are calling it a powder then inhalation could very likely bring on silicosis which is a potentially fatal lung disease common amongst certain kinds of miners. It would seem to be easy to convert the used powder back to reusable powder or to make a non-dangerous slag out of it, but something would need to be done.

[@rogerreiner1846]

There would have to be fail-safe filtering solutions built into whatever system is eventually developed. You point out an excellent public concern, however. Silicosis is like a nasty permanent pneumonia, incurable as yet.

[@MichaelD796]

Title content starts 1:59

[@olavberrig4548]

Storing hydrogen and other gasses inside metal is well known in CERN (European organization for particle research). For CERN it is a nuisance, because during winters shutdown where we repair equipment and the vacuum pipes are open and atmospheric air enters the vacuum pipes, the walls of the pipes absorb great amounts of gases from the air. Therefore we always heat the pipes to more than 200 degrees Celsius when we start up the machines (accelerators). This way we force the gasses out of the vacuum pipes. If we didn’t do the heating, the gasses would slowly outgas from the vacuum pipes walls, and we would never get the very high vacuum (I.e. very low pressure) that is needed for accelerating the particles.

[@casualobserver3702]

Use the silica for heat storage tanks.

[@LiborTinka]

That recycling of powdered SiO2 (silica) might go via dissolution with a strong base (e.g. sodium hydroxide), forming soluble sodium silicate (water glass) - this can be made into silica gel or other products.

[@davecai999]

Thanks for the great video. The storage of hydrogen is indeed one of the most difficult parts of the wider adoption of hydrogen in daily usage. Apparently, none of the technology existing today is good enough -- mostly can only carry 3-5% of hydrogen by dry weight. Hopefully, we can get it done in the next 2-5 years -- the first lunar base might be set up in 10 years, and hydrogen is likely the only viable solution for energy storage for a lunar base.

[@jackdbur]

You come to this conclusion of H2 being the only viable option how? No mini reactors &/or solar & batteries?

[@TG-lp9vi]

Just think that Australia has developed an ammonia Fuel cell which can make Ammonia and works in reverse to extract the Hydrogen. We have been transporting Ammonia safely for 100 years now.

[@davidvavra9113]

Every time I read about something that seems to work on a lab bench scale automatically being ready for widespread use, I want to reread Clarke's famous short story Superiority. And sometimes I remember the old cold fusion daydream.

[@nicklloyd-jones]

An excellent presentation as usual but I need more information. In particular, I would like to know the volumetric energy density when using boron nitride powder to store hydrogen.

[@jims6498]

That's what is so amazing about hydrogen! THe liquid form is not the most compact, warmer storage 'trays' store more.

[@t.g.2777]

You should do a video about current status of supercapacitors, not heard much about them for a while

[@mattpearson9905]

When talking about super porous material, can the mesoporous magnesium carbonate “upsalite” be used in any way to produce hydrogen?

[@damianrobinson4895]

Very interesting, and without more information it's hard to evaluate. But one question that occurs to me is, how do either of these methods do anything to improve the relative low energy density of hydrogen in its gaseous form (once liberated from the powders), so that it could be efficient enough for normal everyday use in, say, a hydrogen-powered automobile?

[@skierpage]

You run the hydrogen through a fuel cell (or if you're dumb or reusing an existing thermal plant you burn the hydrogen in a combustion engine or turbine). Yes, you need to produce enough hydrogen to generate the desired power (already hydrogen fool cell cars need a battery to deliver bursts of power and to recapture braking energy), but pour enough water on enough powder and it may be doable. You're talking about the rate of the reaction producing hydrogen, a different kind of efficiency than the round-trip energy efficiency of silicon → silicon oxide plus hydrogen → back to silicon.

[@Xero1of1]

I like the idea of the super-porous silicon... but like you, I wonder about the electrical input required vs the potential output.

[@magnetospin]

Yea, I wonder about that. It's basically a hydrogen extraction technology. In general, you need sufficient energy to break the chemical bonds in order to release the hydrogen in water, and that's always a negative energy process. The energy has to come from somewhere.

[@jhoughjr1]

Not to mention all that wieght nd space compares to how much hydrogen it actually can hold

[@TheCountess666]

@@magnetospin Hydrogen is always thought of as a energy storage medium, not a energy source. I like the idea of using that as a long term storage emergency power source for example. as long as you can keep it dry it should be able to sit on a shelf forever until you need it. For that use case not even the round trip efficiency is all that important.

[@jims6498]

@@TheCountess666 round trip efficiency as you put it has us wearing blinders to how cheap heat is when mined from below at scale 'inefficiently'. We are funding concentrating solar reactor for hydrogen liberation.... That introduces a fixed cost... 60% of which is in the 'mirros' so mining deep heat is obviously much cheaper since mirrors are expensive but a minority of cost of concentrating sunlight!!! Or so that seems to be the case with my seat having trusts pants or whatever.

[@seannewell397]

As others have said about reduction for turning that resultant waste by product back, that Hong Kong powder is really cool, but it feels like they haven't figured out the full cycle yet, but ran out of time and need to ship, and they feel OK about it "cuz its sand" which will likely be inadequate for whatever cancer it sometimes causes I'm sure 🤷 But i think the overall idea is super clever! We already have hydrogen everywhere in water, so find ways to use that on site when needed. Nice.

[@ericnordman5893]

Sand at a beach is a size you can easily see. This is much smaller and silica dust is very bad to breathe. Silica dust particles become trapped in lung tissue causing inflammation and scarring. The particles also reduce the lungs' ability to take in oxygen. This condition is called silicosis. Silicosis results in permanent lung damage and is a progressive, debilitating, and sometimes fatal disease.

[@chrismuir8403]

The boron nitride method does reduce the pressure and volume of hydrogen, but increases the weight and cost. The porous silicon thing is another method of producing hydrogen - a rather expensive method, considering the energy cost of producing relatively pure silicon.

[@larry785]

Remember the movie Gremlins - whatever you do, DON'T feed them water!!!

[@grindupBaker]

I vaguely recall it's don't feed them after midnight and whatever you do, DON'T put them in water (get them wet) !!! but excellent point regarding the thin probability of catastrophic unforeseen outcomes. Mister Think or GooglesTubes deleted my troll comment about a famous Silicon-based life form with acid blood perhaps developing if we replace carbon-based with Silicon-based on Earth.

[@MoraFermi]

Amusingly enough, that silicon powder might have been obtained through ball milling. From my point of view, the boron nitride option is better for regular use as it needs only one heavy thing to be carried around. The Si powder, together with the required amount of water and a fuel cell would make an awesome long-storage emergency power source.

[@jenshobroh1294]

It could be used instead of carbon based fuel for peaks on the grid?

[@jims6498]

seasonal storage is not gonna be hydogren it's stationary and i like inertieal very much. THe inertial include gravity systems that ramp up power delivery as mass falls capturing the acceleration as needed (slowing it down but allowing speed to bank instant power)

[@joedance14]

Always enjoy your informative and thought provoking videos. Making hydrogen easier to store and transport would be an incredible achievement. So, probably a “dumb” question, but how would solid or powder hydrogen be used?

[@skierpage]

There's no such thing as solid or powdered hydrogen. These *stores* of hydrogen release H2 (hydrogen gas) which can then be: burned to produce heat, inefficiently burned in an engine or turbine, run through a fuel cell to produce electricity, used to make ammonia and fertilizer,, or used in other chemical reactions (much of the 70M tons of hydrogen we use annually is used in fossil fuel refining which needs to die in a fire).

[@FoamyDave]

Always interesting to see developments in hydrogen energy storage. The hydrogen story seems very similar to the nuclear fusion story: It's about 20 years in the future and always will be.

[@hitreset0291]

It is the fossil fuel industry's method for keeping us all brain dead towards sustainability.

[@stefansedman5179]

How much energy and resource is required to produce the Boron Nitrite powder?

[@nickcook2714]

Silicon option is extremely energy intensive. Requires about 12KWh to produce 1Kg low grade metallic silicon. Reaction requires 7Kg of silicon to produce 1Kg of hydrogen. That's a minimum of 84KWh to produce 1Kg of hydrogen. Then you have to add in the cost of: all the other energy, make porous silicon >materils (specifically carbon @ ~6Kg per Kg of H2) > shipping > waste management (especially CO2 emissions from producing the silicon - SiO2+2C => Si+2CO) costs. This might be useful for some niche applications, but I can't see how you can make it work economically at large scale.

[@kwantator]

SI+ is quite like blue hydrogen as manufacturing/extraction is energy intensive But it is quite good for fuel cell battery when you can replace that 100kg high pressure explosive tank with 40-50kg SI and gas producing module Other than fuel cell vehicle I can't really think what this thing is good at

[@thesilentone4024]

Parking lots take up 25 to 30% of city land area go up not out parking garages batteries on first floor and solar or wind or bolth on top. Parking garages can free up 70% of land area in citys they can help reduce energy demands because the batteries and solar or wind on top and because there less black on the ground. The new land can be used as green space to reduce heat so energy demands on the city because its cooler. The green spaces can help reduce wind flooding pollution in air and soil and it can reduce crime because its not burning hot with no shade yes this is proven more heat=more crime.

[@TheLosamatic]

@Thesilient One parking lots or multi storied buildings, like home garages will not be needed in the near future! Autonomous vehicles is the future, those who are stuck in the mud of the past will see the roads you are allowed to drive your old vehicles on reduced to eventually none, I for one am tired of being run off the road by the typical driver who has the attention span of a thirteen year old girl with a media image to maintain! Autonomy besides turning a two hour commute into 30 to 45 minutes, kill 30 + million jobs, will, finally, eliminate the necessity of a personal vehicle, made necessary by Rockefeller, Ford, and Goodyear, being allowed to buy up trolly systems around the country and scrapping them. Payback is way past time to stick it to the thieves like insurance, socialized costs, I haven’t cost them a dime and paying since 77 WTF should my premiums always go up? Paying for fools that the capitalistic game has made it practically a right for idiots to drive! Still see no urgency here by almost all that reference costs as compared to petroleum, when the fact is that lying murderous industry has never counted the real costs of it’s product, but even that should not matter except for the most part Y’All are lost in the convenience that fossil fuels generated electricity is just too convenient, totally blind to the possibility of complete civilization collapse of the worlds economy from irreversible sudden onset climate change being such a no possibility no need to change anything after the world made the outrageous change in atmospheric pollution from the last two hundred years just keep on making the most murderous industry ever record profits and ever year adding another thousand years of global climate hell compared to what we were experiencing,! Fact the depression people that knew how survived just find in the country without electricity! Just going along with this insanity … won’t be long now a billion pissed off refugees fleeing heat exhaustion death zones into two nuclear arsenals will be very sad when the news is all about, but who knew!

[@thesilentone4024]

@@TheLosamatic well un tell we can get to that level where going to have parking lots and we should reduce its land use. Also what about broken cars/busses they get put in yep you guessed it parking lots so the parking garages we make now will still be used in this technology age of yours.

[@TheLosamatic]

@@thesilentone4024 what, dude you try dumping a vehicle at some parking garage you’ll have a rude awakening!

[@user-um9sl1kj6u]

There are many different ways to store hydrogen. I think the important thing is to have a system that looks at everything and tries them all. Germany has their own pilot program with hydrogen, It might be interesting to learn from their mistakes

[@jasonhillgiant]

The demonstration rig is oddly similar to the cold fusion thing from back in the day.

[@-LightningRod-]

that GreenEnergy tank car near the end makes me laugh. i live right beside where the "first spike" was laid down for Canada's railways and its currently in high use to this day. Today for instance there is a line of similar cars across the street from here, full of "1203" , according to OSHA, because they are safe" , i can only imagine what a railcar of hydrogen could do to my siding if something went wrong as 200 degrees doesn't actually seem that high considering the force that hydrogen is capable of. the Good news is, its raining with lightning and Thunder Storms on Greenland today, a relatively small side effect of "FIONA" wrecking all the Docks on the east Coast, ...the Good News is that Heating Costs in Greenland are predicted to be lower as all that ice melts, ....So, ...good news.

[@stevegreen2839]

The difficulties with regenerating hydrogen powders are well documented. Yuk. The real question is did you want hydrogen or power ?, Much of the EU/UK this winter is hungry for power not hydrogen. The derivatives like e-ammonia or e-methanol with CO2 recycling them look far more interesting to a chem eng than any Hogwarts wizards powder, but are rarely explored.

[@nickwinn7812]

You hit the nail on the head - the UK needs more power, not more hydrogen. Any new power source must be carbon neutral or else we'll all be toast in a few decades. The idea of CO2 recycling therefore appeals whereas carbon capture abd storage (whereby you just pump the stuff down the hole you've just made for the extraction of gas or oil and hope it'll stay there) is plainly not. The fossil fuel industry is really pushing hydrogen so that they can sell more natural gas from which to produce it. This will neither solve the short term energy crisis nor the medium to long term climate crisis. But the idiot UK goverment are going to waste billions on it. Money which would be better off being used for energy efficiency measures.

[@jensstubbestergaard6794]

The silicon +water to silicon dioxide and H2 angle is covered and will be very difficult to patent, so the secret sauce is in the stabilization, and in creating the needed very large surface area, and especially in manufacturing Silicon cheap enough. .

[@psycronizer]

Free flow agents like flame pyrolyzed silica turn purified sand into a light, fluffy, almost weightless material, the process completely changes the physical characteristic of silica but it is still essentially silicon dioxide. My suspicion is that they are using an electric arc in a reducing atmosphere to produce a porous form of elemental silicon, with an extremely high surface area. The powder could very well behave as they say it does, it looks right, but the snake oil in this whole pitch could be the hidden energy needed to produce the reduced silicon itself. Chemical reduction, the actual gain of electrons and removal of oxygen is by definition an energy transfer and often times in practical demonstration can be quite dramatic. This is the bit that has me really questioning this whole thing, how much energy is required to go from sand to Si + ?, Silicon is not a reactive metalloid so is any activation energy also needed ? extra heating for example..

[@human_isomer]

As a chemist I'm pretty sure that producing Si+ includes high temperatures. High porous materials of this kind are usually produced by thermal decomposition of other compounds. If that energy comes from a carbon-neutral source, it's fine - but storage, transport, and disposal of the SiO2 have to be considered, too. The SiO2 might be used to make concrete. However, the energy that is set free by the reaction of Si and water also should be used, as it may produce a lot of heat. And there's an expiry date on the Silicon, as it will react with traces of moisture. Besides that it may even be extremely flammable, if not explosive, due to the big surface of the powder. So it must be stored under inert gas. And Nitrogen won't do, as Silicon also reacts with Nitrogen over time. So probably Argon needs to be used, which will add to the cost. Not sure if all of that together still makes it a viable solution for Hydrogen production.

[@jims6498]

'producing' heat is absurd when plenty of heat can be mined from mantle . . . that of course is cheaper, MUCH CHEAPER, at scale. how can fusion be cheaper then mantle heat?

[@human_isomer]

@@jims6498 and how is your reply related to my comment in any way?

[@jims6498]

​@@human_isomer ​ @Human Isomer The argon is likely not needed but could be recovered and would be cheap compared to value of powder. My comment depreciates capturing low grade heat because high grade heat in the future I fight for will be mantle cheap. THe cost of mining heat from mantle goes down the more you can use and therefore mine with consideration for it. Efficiency is a blinder and a tax that has us ignoring in past and over obsessing on now. When cost engineering has it helpful it is fine but heat is too cheap to not cost engineer ample waste of it into the solution that works best. Heat polution exisits as an efficiency measure for cooling water but we now run turbines less efficiently using air. THere is no concern about such heat being a problem to dump into atmosphere the concern is genuinely solar radiation be blocked from departure not man released heat. The public thinks man can heat planet directly instead of prventing planet from dumping solar heat as it has in past before our pollution that is nonstop. The foil looked like low vacuum but vacuum still packed. So very little Argon and we are being told containers not sample packs but densite comparable to oil if water is included which it should not be. WIthout cost targets I agree it might be unimportant. But costs based upon energy input DO NOT CONCERN ME. Caring about how much energy a soslution requires is to surrender to oil. INexhaustive mantle heat makes energy requiremtns not impediment to scale. I shared this fact with you because you expressed the opposite view! YOu did Oil's dirty deed of spreading myth. IT robbed us of mantle heat hijacking the offshore drilling for it into deep seal oil mining! They denied us fission, deny us mantle, and do so with aplomb, skilled hired hands and even hypnotised by efficiency propiganda 'volunteers.' We need heat to do work and mining it not fuels to generate it is how to disrupt industry and cool planet fastest. This way of moving energy any distance might be part of solution as well given howcheap water is most places and how little energy is needed in surface places without water that people need be. It is more important to get 'hydrogen equivalent for pennies a kg then it itself for a buck and far easier as welll to accomplish. All you haveh to do is use enough mantle heat! Say half of all hte heat we release carbon obtaining now- in first well we seriously tap. How could that cost more then a kg armortised equivalent for the heat? HOw could not be over half a cent a kwh? The mantle is not cheap to tap into but it is cheap to use. IT is also safe enough and certain enough we understand so much all we need to do is apply our knowledge, be willing to not create jobs cooling planet let people do other work so we can get that done sooner and fully. NObody wants a generation of high paying work at expense of future generations not just of people!! This filter we see solutions thru- they must be so taxed as doomed to fail, in requiring human labor to perform, is our presidents senility or his unchecked ignorance with Evil outcome the result. Cheaper heat saves the world and it requires no new science or discovery to procure just however many trillions to get hundreds of thousands of times as much heat as spending that on fusion or oil would cost. The planet is worth such a big project. Going to moon took absurd amount of our gnp. Cooling planet? That's enough heat to mine to justify spending far more then it could conceivably cost. I just typed a lot more but keyboard has a touchpad not turned off so shame on me. I told you how to do the math. And more. Mantle heat sufficient to cool our planet is too affordable to not know budget for. IT takes courage to share how little in trillions or whatever salvation can be definitely safely bought for. THe diligence is almost trivial. FOr most, people like you, it is genuinely trivial. For many, people like me, we struggle to have the few hours or hundreds of hours at most focused it would cost. For me this sits poorly as I lose another day trying to choose my battles but knowing the mot important short term one is neglected too long and indefensibly. So should i someday succeed ambitiously I will know price it came at and be an awe of myself. I pay and pay and pay so thanks for engagement I hope you respect my sacrifice in addressing your response. The ability to use chrome to quickly find comment and type is limited. It is hard to send this there are two vertical scrolls and finding the right one is almost impossible in dark mode as synced from desktop not to netbook so I'm in normal dispaly mode to see it yes the scroll bars are same dark lol really sad. Eventually I will be able to type late at night into youtube with darkmode on despite full browser or use netbook ap duh. but ap liklely lacks direct accesss to replying? ANyway This powder seems far too slow to liberate free hydrogen from water? I need specs on the speed but am not concerned if it needs hot water AT ALL. That's like worrying about cost of hot shower in Phillipenes lol. Scale is everything. Exponential drops in cost upon scaling up makes cooling planet a short term task. NOt forever aspiration 2050 etc. target nonsense for meaningless partial progress. Exponential drops in cost like 90% in a decade for hydrogen but based on todays science not chosen as difficult but chosen as certain. This is not a drill. Trapping heat on this planet like we now sustain doing at ridiculous loss of life unrelated to pollution but blunt force trauma alone, the 7 figures of people smashed from somany pounds of behicle per pound of passenger....it's a swithchj. Turn on mining mantle heat and we turn off capturing solar heat WALLA. But moving mantle heat energy to other side of planet from mantle heat mine might be done by this powder ok? I've said it more than once. Mining is the answer but not based on selling what you get at market price but using it as owner of mine duh. We must stop renting for our energy needs! The world owns the mantle and needs us to tap it for energy in a contract unprecedented a coop or otherwise working model that delivers cooler oceans and restored icebergs soon enough. not careers not aspriation solutions based on facts logic certitdue openness to truth ability to end oils billions in rent daily from a poor world of people needing that for other goods and planet cured therefor for much less. MUCH LESS so less than free planet cooling. GOt it??

[@davidwilkie9551]

Yes, "Not giddy with excitement", ..again.

[@eamonglavin2532]

I looked into the silicon technology, it is inexpensive to make porous silicon from pure silicon. However the current standard production method of pure silicon from sand uses a carbon source and creates lots of emissions which defeats the purpose. I did see an alternative production method for pure silicon using hydrogen though so that's an option. Would need to look into end to end efficiency from silicon dioxide to porous silicon (using hydrogen) and back again vs energy requirement to compress hydrogen to 700 bar. I have my doubts that the silicon method is going to come out with lower energy use and it could be a way to sneak fossil fuels into the supply chain which isn't great. Although the convenience and safety vs compression shouldn't be disregarded.