"I and the Father are one" and "the glory I had with you" - are NOT Deity of Christ texts

[@neweyz3396]

NOTHING Beats the TRUTH ! Good Stuff Bill & well Taught ! Blessings ❤ God knew the Ending before The Beginning , before God spoke the World into Existence He knew the Ending & it’s PLAYING OUT just like God saw it before He Spoke EVERYTHING Into Existence , Foreknown & Foreordained Right On Bill ! It’s AMAZING ❤

[@bowmanaus]

Well done Bill keep up your great work! Shalom from Australia

[@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist]

Amen Amen! Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. Matthew 16:24-25 It often takes losing your friends, perhaps your family and maybe your job as pastors and lay leaders to accept that Jesus is God‘s only created by birth son (begotten). Remember, Jesus told us: “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matthew 7:13-1

[@theguyver4934]

Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )

[@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist]

@@theguyver4934 Jesus ate Lamb according to Passover. He ate fish after God raised him from the dead. Jesus was not a vegetarian.

[@calebrandall3802]

Thank you brother Bill! The Spirit has clearly opened your eyes as it has mine and other fellow believers and like you say once you see it you can’t unsee it

[@daaneel8864]

God bless you for your work Sir, the scriptures are clear.

[@garrett621]

Thank you.

[@troysal]

Good word Bill. Often in GOJ sayings of Yeshua appear on the surface to be saying something they actually are not saying. This becomes more evident once the glasses of tradition are removed. In regard to 17:5 it should also be noted that there is an idiom at play. To say that you "have something with God" is to say that God has something in store for you, which he will bestow on you at the proper time (see Is. 49:4, Matt. 6:1 in Greek).

[@SimplyAwesomeOriginal]

Has anyone read Isaiah 9:6 and understood that Jesus came in the name of his Father as the prophet as spoken of by Moses and confirmed in Acts? And this is in reference to John 17 where Jesus gave us his name... And this upload by Bill helped me to explore this even deeper! If it isn't in poor taste to suggest another KZbin channel in the comments, then let me suggest "The Trinity Delusion" that goes into depth on many of these issues. I recommend him because it's rare to find great channels... And I would like it recommend to me... And being a huge fan of Bill who allows us to listen for free... I hope this helps spread the goodnews

[@wilmavanstaden1026]

Kel of Trinity Delusion's teachings are excellent. Kel and Bill are a strong team for truth on this subject.

[@ken440]

yep. i agree with you, and i see Is9.6 as speaking forward to the great prophet, mighty warrior (el gibbor) and father of the age to come. I also see something that Kel and Bill dont cover... the "musterion" secret hid in God, that we of the body of the anointed (body of christos) are a new creation, one new man (type) neither Jew nor Gentile, but are called as "sons of God" and to reign with our big forerunner brother Jesus, who was first up from the dead, first of many (to be) raised to glory as he Jesus is glorified. Not to just live in the land as a kind of spiritual israel, but reign with Jesus over the nations and restore this damaged world. Higher in authority than the rebel elohim who caused all the grief. If they had known that (would be outcome) they (principalities and current authorities in heavenlies.. our true enemy) then they would not have crucified Jesus. so yes, Is9:6 speaks of our lord and big brother who will be king.

[@SimplyAwesomeOriginal]

@@ken440 it's always great to hear people acknowledge Jesus as a brother too!

[@thatwhichhasbeen-isthatwhi6575]

Good presentation. I have been advocating “prolepsis” for some time now. John 5:26:- For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself. The above is another “proleptic” quote by Jesus. He claimed to have already been “given” life in himself “before” his resurrection from the dead. Concerning John 17, you can always make it up as you go along and say that the “glory” in verse 22 is a different kind of “glory” than in verse 5. That's what the last Trinitarian apologist told me when I kindly challenged his understanding of John 17:5. Peace

[@Alexsid-lf8ov]

Jesus is before all created things thats what Collossians says. Why don't you debate Sam Shamoun live he goes live everyday. Jesus is called MIGHTY God which in Hebrew is El Gibor, used only one other time in reference to YHWH. JESUS is calls Himself ALMIGHTY GOD. ALMIGHTY ONE. First and the Last. Even muslims know only God can be the first and last.

[@thatwhichhasbeen-isthatwhi6575]

@@Alexsid-lf8ov In part, the context concerning Col 1 is that of being rescued from the domain of darkness and being transferred into the kingdom of Christ. In this new creation, the Risen Christ has pre-eminence, he is “before all things” in rank and honour and not “before all things” in being and time. Christ, through his blood, destroyed the works of the devil and was “given” all power and authority to rule over all principality, power and dominion whether in the air or on the earth Matt 28:18, 1 Pet 3:22. In Hebrew, the word for god is “el”. This word can be used to explain The God, a god, something strong, or refer to a mighty one as a ruler Ezek 31:11. Also, in Ezek 32:21 the very phrase “el gibbor” [in the plural] is used when referencing fallen war heroes. They are referred to as “mighty ones”, “mighty leaders”, “mighty chiefs” etc… That's why other translations use “divine hero” or simply “mighty hero” instead of “mighty god” in their translation of Isa 9:6. Jesus never once called himself “Almighty God”. Concerning Rev 22:13, It is the angel whose feet John fell at in verse 8 speaking. The angel speaks on behalf of both God and Christ. It's called agency. I'm not a debater. Even if I were, for reasons that are more than obvious, I wouldn't entertain debating Mr Shamoun. The man’s temperament and tongue are completely out of control. Peace

[@billschlegel1]

Like Jesus "had" and "was given" glory before the foundation of the world, so those who are to inherit the kingdom of God: "Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mat 25:34).

[@eddieyoung2104]

Genesis 25:23 is another example of God speaking of something as in the present, before it actually happens. When the children were in Rebekah's womb, God refers to them as nations, though that was a future situation: '‭...Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels...'

[@tedbrooks-formerwordoffait1316]

This is all good teaching.... i am a former Word of Faith preacher... and I've come to the same conclusions... As I look at the Church of God, I'm alarmed at how carnal and legalistic these churches are. So, this all good information but how does this not become revelation... or a wonderful understanding of truth... truth is supposed to set us free... but when I look at these congregations I see legalistic captivity to carnal rules and standards.

[@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist]

Are you speaking of The Church of God General Conference of McDonough GA?

[@tedbrooks-formerwordoffait1316]

@@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist really?? Are you going to tell me there certain degrees of rightness based on which church split you're apart of?

[@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist]

@@tedbrooks-formerwordoffait1316 easy there, I’m just asking which ‘Church of God’ organization you are saying is ‘carnal and legalistic’ (your words).

[@tedbrooks-formerwordoffait1316]

@@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist lol lol I'm searching like I have been for the past 30 years, since I came out of Word of Faith. I appreciate your teaching on Jesus not being God... very helpful... but I see at least two huge strongholds on the church. One is Jesus is God... the other is the Sovereignty teaching. 1Jn_2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. I have a hunger for the Word like never before. I hunger for correction... I hunger for clarity... I hunger for truth... I'm very passionate about it... but very vocal in my videos at the same time... Where are there others who have the same passion?

[@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist]

@@tedbrooks-formerwordoffait1316 first, hello😁, I’m not a member of any assembly except the body of Christ. I’ve only recently come to knowledge of the truth of who Jesus is (2018). I have been a seeker of God through Christ since 1972. My journey led me through many groups and I have revisited many of my former friends with the truth of the Only True God and his anointed servant Jesus Christ. Very few have listened and searched out the truth for themselves. They reject it out of hand. As far as zeal, I am an ambassador for Christ urging the ‘Christians’ of this age to contend for the faith that was ‘once and for all delivered to the saints’ (the original doctrine taught by the apostles). So I am careful to ‘bless and not curse them’ for rejecting the truth I hold so dear. How are you taking this truth to the people who are in churches today?

[@greenline5351]

Jesus glory was vailed in the flesh. One means one in spirit. The Holy Spirit makes us one with the Father and the Son. Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit, the eternal Spirit.

[@aservantofJEHOVAH7849]

Luke Ch.1:32NIV"He will be great and will be called the Son of the MOST HIGH. The LORD God will give him the throne of his father David," John Ch.10:29NIV"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than ALL c ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. " The God and Father of Jesus christ is the MOST HIGH God and thus is co equal to no one. John Ch.8:54NIV"Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. " According to Jesus his God and Father is the one and only God of Israel . By common consent the God and Father of Jesus is not triune. Therefore the one and only God of Israel is not triune. John ch.20:17NIV"Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”" The God and Father of Jesus is not triune by common consent . The God and Father of Jesus is also the God and Father of Jesus' disciples . Therefore the God and Father of Jesus' disciples is not triune. Matthew Ch.24:36NIV"“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, f but ONLY the Father. " ONLY the God and Father of Jesus Christ is omniscient thus only the God and Father of Jesus Christ is the MOST HIGH God. Roman's Ch.1:9EHV"To be sure, (the)God, whom I serve with my spirit by proclaiming the gospel of his Son, is my witness to how constantly I make mention of you. In all my prayers, " Roman's Ch.3:30NIV"since there is only ONE(Grk.eis) God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. " Paul was an actual monotheist and thus rendered exclusive sacred service to one most high God. Whom he clearly identifies as the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Matthew Ch.16:16NKJV"Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”" not merely the living Father but the living God to whom all believers owe EXCLUSIVE Devotion/Sacred Service. Malachi Ch.2:10NIV"Do we not all have one Father b ? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?" The God and Father of Jesus Christ is the only true God. The algorithm is resisting the truth re:the supremacy of the God and Father of Jesus.

[@jerrymartin3965]

How many thrones are beheld in Rev. 22? Who sits upon that throne?

[@ShemaHaTorah]

Too often people see the thought "In the beginning" or "before the world was" and automatically think of a historical time (like creation event). But that's usually completely off base. Like this text here "with the glory I had with you in the beginning (or before world was)" .. the "beginning" or the "Before" is referencing ORIGINATING point, that is 'in the mind of God', and not a reference to a historical point of time . . Yahshua is the Divine Promised Plan (ie, the Word) of God ORIGINIATING from before time even began.. The glory Messiah had, was that of being the eternal promised one originating from the mind of the father. . . just as "in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God" ,, that is "in the beginning (in the mind of God) was the promised plan, and the promised plan was with God (in his mind), and the promised plan was divine" .. and that "promised plan" became flesh (at this point, becoming flesh, the promised plan became a reality in time/space/history as a literal manifestation and not just in the mind of God)

[@billschlegel1]

Hi. I agree that the word "world" as in "before the foundation of the world" in the Gospel of John does not refer to planet earth. If you are interested, check out a different view on John 1. Basic idea is that "the beginning" of John 1, while being an intentional parallel to Genesis, is not describing the Genesis creation. Rather, John 1 is a new beginning that God brings about through the man Christ Jesus from Nazareth, who is metaphorically called the Word. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y3W2Yqmlib2HqKc

[@ShemaHaTorah]

Thanks Bill I'll give that a listen.. I agree completely, Messiah himself is the 'new creation', and John 1 is not at all a reference to Genesis 1 account, other then as a 'type' or parallel to what John is speaking of in his whole gospel, that is the 'new creation' , the promised plan (word) become reality (in messiah). . short article i wrote on my blog where I point to this 'beginning' ''word'' is connected to Abraham, not genesis creation. wayofthenatsarim.blogspot.com/2023/10/the-word-became-flesh-god-didnt.html@@billschlegel1

[@Alexsid-lf8ov]

Jesus is before all created things thats what Collossians says. Why don't you debate Sam Shamoun live he goes live everyday. Jesus is called MIGHTY God which in Hebrew is El Gibor, used only one other time in reference to YHWH. JESUS is calls Himself ALMIGHTY GOD. ALMIGHTY ONE. First and the Last. Even muslims know only God can be the first and last.

[@ShemaHaTorah]

Colossians language about 'creation' is for one, a reference to the description of the ''Invisible God" who Paul is speaking of ""the invisible God...by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible" this is YHWH.. and then his reference to Messiah being the preeminent one, OF creation, is just speaking that creation was made subjection to Messiah as it's appointed heir and king. . This is NOT at all about Messiah's preexistence as some sort of creative deity.. and also, Messiah IS himself the 'new creation', and in this regard in the new covenant he is firstborn one over that creation (ie, the kingdom).. the Hebrew text is a quote of the Tanach, which is a direct reference to YHWH himself. The author of hebrews is not directly calling Jesus "The mighty one" .. that would be blasphemy and transgression of Torah, which the author writing to Jews would likely not engage in. . look at that verse in context of how old testament scriptures are used by Rabbi's and NT writers, NOT as some sort of didactic teaching on the ontology or nature of the Messiah himself. . And revelation, Yes Messiah is the 'first and the last' of the new creation. . YHWH on the other hand is not 'first', he does not have a beginning. he is I AM, that is "I exist" period. no first. @@Alexsid-lf8ov

[@billschlegel1]

@@Alexsid-lf8ov Are you familiar with the new creation in the man Christ Jesus? In Colossians, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead. God doesn't die and God isn't born. kzbin.info/www/bejne/h36ropZsdttrpck

[@LoveAndLiberty02]

Question. This seems like it should be simple, but what is the significance of Jesus being "made Lord and Messiah" after his resurrection, and the fact that he was already called Lord and Messiah before that (in the gospels). I believe in his exclusive humanity, but I am curious about this. Thanks to anyone that can point me to a resource I can read.

[@ken440]

I would say this double lord and christ/messiah thing has to do with the difference between the jews and the nations, from back at Babel, and what Paul calls "the musterion (mystery/secret) hid in God, that had the enemy known they would never have killed Jesus." Messiah (heb) and christ (greek) both mean "anointed, or anointed one. The nations (gentiles) were created by being cast off by language at Babel, for stiff neck rebellion, and the Jewish nation created from one couple, a barren couple Abe and Sarai. God promised an anointed ruller to the Jews. A Lord, messiah, son of David. This messiah was Jesus, anointed of God. manifesting the unseen God, But they rejected him and killed him. So God raised Jesus and made him Lord of all peoples (either jews or gentiles) who would call on the blood. God "anointed" (christ) him as the lamb of covering, making him Lord of all heaven and earth, that all who by faith come under that lambs blood, are a new creation, neither a jew, nor a gentile (other nations) but become ONE new man, the ekklasia, body of the anointing (body of christ) as the (new) sons of God. The spirit that raised Jesus from the dead (anointing) resides in all who call on that name, authority, mediator between God and men, the MAN Jesus anointed (christ). Hope that helps. Read Ephesians a few times with your new perspective of non trinity. It dawns on one. Blessings, keep pressing in, the reward is huge.

[@LoveAndLiberty02]

Thanks Ken. Yeah, that sounds plausible. Like your understanding, I think maybe he was being called Lord because of his status as king and God's son, yet it was after his resurrection that God made him Lord OF ALL, Lord in the supreme sense (under Yahweh). He was already Christ at his conception, but he was made Christ, anointed anew, anointed in his new capacity as the head of the new creation at his resurrection. What do you think about that explanation?

[@ken440]

@@LoveAndLiberty02 exactly, you put it more clear than i did, but i drew on the back story, the bad news about the rebellion of the sons of God which caused the wreck that Jesus as the anointed one, redeems us from, and who we now are, the NEW sons of God yet in earthen vessels for a short time, but to be raised incorruptible in glory high above those rebels, in the same anointing as Jesus. Thos is something seldom touched on in these unitarian channels. The message of Paul, given him by Lord Jesus, after Jesus was made Lord of all, Gods right hand man. And that is the reason people puzzle over why Paul says things a bit different from Jesus red letter words in bible, because Paul speaks directly to the new creation, while Jesus spoke as messiah to Jews at the time still under law.

[@lizzard13666]

@@LoveAndLiberty02I think it might be one of those "Now and Not Yet" things: Romans 4:17 (ESV) as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”--in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. God told Abraham that He HAD made him father of many nations. Before it even happened! Paul uses this to show that Yahweh speaks about things that haven't happened, as if they have happened. God's promises are certain! 1 John 3:2 (ESV) Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. We ARE God's children now ... but not yet ... 2 Corinthians 5:17 (ESV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. It's as if we ARE a New Creation now, even though the New Creation is not here yet. Hope these passages help!

[@ken440]

​@@lizzard13666how are you Lizzard, i havent come across you lately, nor Caleb the humbled or Megan. I think we make a good team.😅

[@choicegospelnetwork]

Hi Bill. Audio has been very low also going hi and low.

[@billschlegel1]

Yeah, sorry. Something wrong with the recorder or mic I had been using, so until I get something else...

[@choicegospelnetwork]

@@billschlegel1 Thank you for your Great work. I will love to do an interview with you soon .

[@eddieyoung2104]

With John 17:5, why didn't Jesus just say 'glorify me with the glory I had before I came to earth'? Why refer to a time, thousands of years previously, for something he would have had more recently? Because he was only meant to be asking for something back which he'd put aside 33 years before!

[@RufusBlad]

Even if it is interpreted your way, preexistence doesn't equal being God.

[@eddieyoung2104]

@@RufusBlad I suppose it doesn't necessarily equal being God. What did you have in mind as an alternative?

[@Alexsid-lf8ov]

Jesus is before all created things thats what Collossians says. Why don't you debate Sam Shamoun live he goes live everyday. Jesus is called MIGHTY God which in Hebrew is El Gibor, used only one other time in reference to YHWH. JESUS is calls Himself ALMIGHTY GOD. ALMIGHTY ONE. First and the Last. Even muslims know only God can be the first and last.

[@Alexsid-lf8ov]

​@@RufusBladJesus is before all created things thats what Collossians says. Why don't you debate Sam Shamoun live he goes live everyday. Jesus is called MIGHTY God which in Hebrew is El Gibor, used only one other time in reference to YHWH. JESUS is calls Himself ALMIGHTY GOD. ALMIGHTY ONE. First and the Last. Even muslims know only God can be the first and last.

[@RufusBlad]

@@eddieyoung2104 That the Son's Spirit was created before the world, as the firtsfruit and the origin of God's creation (Revelations 3:14) and in him and through him everything was created (Colossians 1:16). Therefore no one comes to the Father (i.e. God) but through Jesus. See also in Ephesians 1:4 how God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world.

[@realjosephanthony]

Who is Jesus, Bill?

[@billschlegel1]

Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. (Son of God is especially a title for Israel and Israel's Anointed King).

[@HebreosCincoDoce-nt8rx]

*📜 Hebrews.7:* 3Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever. *📜 Hebrews.4:* 14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. *📜 John.6:* 62Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

[@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist]

John 6:62 and Jesus asking 'What if you see the Son of Man ascending where he was before'. This is a classic proof text of Deity of Christ believers, but I think God has opened my eyes to something about this chapter. Chapter 6 starts out with Jesus going up 'ascending' the side of a mountain to teach his disciples and there is a large crowd following because he was healing. Seeing the crowds he suggests to the disciples that the people need bread. We then have the account of the feeding of the five thousand. The people rise up to forcibly make Jesus King in verse 14, Jesus retreats to the mountain and gets away. That evening the disciples are in the boat and crossing to Capernaum. Jesus walks on the water and catches up to them. The next morning people realized there was only one boat and they knew Jesus did not get in the boat the day before. 6:23 mentions the bread again and the people getting into boats to go to Capernaum. When they get there they asked Jesus how he got there. His response, 'you are seeking me because of the bread not because of the signs'. Verse 31 they bring up Manna and getting bread from Moses. Jesus corrects them and says the Manna came from God, and that He (Jesus) is the true bread. During this exchange they start to get aggravated about his claims of being 'the true bread from Heaven'. He continues the metaphor with his flesh and blood. Verse 60 they are offended. Verse 62 'Then what if you were to see The Son of Man ascending to where he was before?' Verse 63 'It is the spirit who gives life, the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. Jesus was contrasting the flesh's need for bread but the true need is for the words of life. Here is the thought. I believe Jesus was asking them, 'What if I go back up on the mountain and start handing out bread again, will you be offended then?' Jesus would NEVER offer them a sign like 'seeing me resurrected and glorified in Heaven'. He said many times no sign would be given except for the sign of Jonah.

[@HebreosCincoDoce-nt8rx]

@@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist 📜 Matthew.12:39He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. 1Corinthians.10:1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual Rock that accompanied them, and that Rock was Christ. Isaiah.44:8Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one!”

[@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist]

@@HebreosCincoDoce-nt8rx you’re using lots of scripture, but you don’t explain what you mean. When you used John 6:62 I thought you were trying to explain that Jesus was going to ascend up ‘to where he was before’ and that would be the sign. We could have a slower conversation about each verse that you have cited if you wish.

[@HebreosCincoDoce-nt8rx]

@@SonOfGodByNewBirthInChrist 📜 John.6:62Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 1Corinthians.10:1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual Rock that accompanied them, and that Rock was Christ. Isaiah.44:8Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one!”

[@Mckaule]

​@@HebreosCincoDoce-nt8rxI imagine people of Israel going through the desert and the rock which was called Christ was dragging behind them. Moses: "Hey guys, turn around and see if Jesus is still following?" People: "Yes, Moses, he's is still behind us" Moses: "Ok guys, that means we are on the right track, keep going. Tell Jesus not to stay behind too far for he may be lost" People: "Ay ay captain !"

[@Andy-u9x]

Yeshua is born of the spirit of God he is of God NOT God BUT of Him born of the will of the spirit the spirit of truth the holy spirit the word made flesh.... God is a spirit yehsua was flesh but 100% the Son of God.... God did not send Yeshua to be a deity but to do the Father's WILL a work that needed to be DONE..... SAVE US! from our fleshly ignorance of God the heavenly Father

[@claudiozanella256]

What is important are the words of the DIRECTLY CONCERNED WITNESS: Jesus. The rest takes the back seat. God (in his fullness) is NOT in heaven. If God were in heaven, then: 1. God would be the KING, not Jesus 2. God would judge and decide who can enter his reign, not Jesus 3. Go would be SEEN 4. Lucifer would still be there. Jesus states to be the ONLY JUDGE because He is "also Son of man". Jesus has thus "something more" than God, what exactly? Jesus states it very clearly "God is a SPIRIT". This means God is transcendent, away. He is here only for what concerns his relationships with us, with his almighty power, but actually nobody is here. This is why "no one has ever seen God at any time" and if you want to somehow see the Father, then only Jesus is available to be seen in the place of the Father (see Jesus talking to Philip). God who is a spirit is called "Spirit of God" aka "Holy Spirit". Jesus on the contrary fully exists, this is the difference. Jesus thus fully owns the reign of God. The absence of the Father is confirmed by Jesus, according to this privileged direct WITNESS, (Jesus' answer to the High priest): (1.) ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the RIGHT HAND OF POWER and appearing in the clouds of heaven. (2.) Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER of God. (3.) ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and coming in the clouds of heaven. The "power" is of course just a "thing", not the Father. Sitting "on the right hand of God" is only disclosed by the fake scriptures known as "long ending of Mark", drafted by unknown. Lucifer made a rebellion because he didn't see God and was not aware of the presence of the Spirit of God. Lucifer thought to have some chances for victory, wrong.

[@euston2216]

First...not all "deity of Christ" believers believe in a plurality of "preexistent" divine persons. Second...the Father and the Son being "one in unity" - just like believers are to be "one in unity" - does not negate the truth that the Father and the Son are _uniquely_ ONE _far beyond_ a mere "one in unity". If the Son, in John 10:30, was merely claiming to be "one in unity" with his Father, and nothing more, then the reaction would not have been a murderous frenzy. Third...19:01 - _"God gave us things even before we existed. And God gave the Messiah glory even before the Messiah literally existed."_ Allow me to help... "God gave us things even before we existed. And God gave the Messiah, the genuinely human _manifestation_ of God, glory even before the genuinely human _manifestation_ of God was literally _manifested."_ *1 TIMOTHY 3:16 (KJV)* And without controversy *great* is the *mystery* of godliness: *GOD was manifest in the flesh,* justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

[@RufusBlad]

What do you mean with "genuinely human manifestation"? Where is this phrase used in the bible?

[@samueljennings4809]

@@RufusBlad I think they're basing this on 1 Timothy 3:16-17.

[@Alexsid-lf8ov]

Jesus is before all created things thats what Collossians says. Why don't you debate Sam Shamoun live he goes live everyday. Jesus is called MIGHTY God which in Hebrew is El Gibor, used only one other time in reference to YHWH. JESUS is calls Himself ALMIGHTY GOD. ALMIGHTY ONE. First and the Last. Even muslims know only God can be the first and last.

[@northoftoofar3772]

And even the demons know that YHVH is one.

[@ken440]

As for El Gibor, what did one (or both) of you say? That it is a name for God, and is never used of any other.? News 4U, In Ezekial31:11 we have a case where the king of Babylon is called El Gibor. Usually translated as "mighty one" . It is the case of Egypt towering proud and God (YHWH) giving the nation of Egypt to be cut down by the king (El Gibor) of the mightiest nation, Babylon. The reason he is called this is obvious, he is a mighty king. A very god among the surrounding nations. And as "El" is the general word (like we say "God") for the highest ranking god of the Caananite pantheon, it is a title for the high god. Just like we say "God." for the God of Israel, where He is more accurately named by the tetragrammaton. YHWH, which is closest we get to an actual personal name, but instead use the title God. So "El" is a title, not a name, and El was revered by Israel's predecessors and neighbors. (dont confuse it with "Baal" which is also a universal word (lord) used as a "lord" god, or the god which was "Lord" of the surrounding nations.) The point is in Semitic languages of the times, including Isaiah, any nation could call their God "El Gibor." Which in english is ..... "god mighty." Of course we dont talk like Yoda, so we say "mighty god." So here we see, just as the 70 Judges from Exodus being called "god" or Moses referred to as "god" to Pharaoh in representative context, so "El" can be ascribed to the king that YHWH will use to put down the invading and proud Egyptians. a mighty god among kings. El Gibor. Hence Is9:6 is NOT claiming by your method of "therefore equals" that Jesus is YHWH, but it does imply he will represent, be an imager, for YHWH, so now it can be understood when Jesus says "If you have seen me you have seen the father" because as Deut18:18 states, YHWH will speak THROUGH, manifest, in the man of Israel promised, the Messiah. Jesus is Messiah to Israel, and only says what his father says. That is Jesus is "the full manifestation of the God most high." or "in the image of God." (not a physical look alike, but a wielder of the power invested in him. Blessings.

[@Alexsid-lf8ov]

@ken440 I'm not even gonna read your yapping that you just sent after days because youre a coward who is afraid to debate Live in front of thousands of people. You dont have the Spirit of God and your going to EternaI T0rm3nt . Rent free.

[@Alexsid-lf8ov]

@ken440 it's been 3 days and you're still stalking me but afraid to debate Sam Shamoun in a live debate when he takes any callers.

[@ken440]

@@Alexsid-lf8ov a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do, and i have been taking in some summer holiday weather Alexie.