I Asked WoW PvErs Why They Don't Like PvP

[@shieldsftw]

Wow! I never believed my video would get over 1k views, holy crap its crazy. Thank you so much for everyone who watched!

[@MerdadSouraki-me1ee]

Nice vid. You deserve more attention tbh Keep it up champ

[@nicholasalvarado4695]

10k now! grats!

[@shieldsftw]

10k views. How tf did this happen? xd. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[@MatthewTheWanderer]

@@nicholasalvarado4695 20k now!

[@paule.2687]

@@shieldsftw 22k now! good job man, nice video

[@pkWreck]

The problem with CC isn't what's conventionally meant when referring to 'CC'. The 6s CCs aren't the problem any more, it's the micro CC. AoE stuns, into AoE blinds, into AoE knockbacks, into AoE grips, into AoE silences into AoE fears. It's the constant interruption of the flow of game your gameplay that is frustrating. Getting caught in a Polymorph has obvious counterplay; LoS or interrupt the mage, and once it's over it's over. With micro CC it's pressure > 3s of stun thinking "once I'm out I can carry on playing" > get out, only to be stunned again for 1.5s again. This design stems from the way M+ is designed to be played, large pulls with lots to interrupt, so short duration AoE CCs exist to deal with that. That has bled over into PvP

[@shieldsftw]

Yeah, thats true. The amount of micro CC at the moment makes gameplay a bit frustratimg and it could definitely be reduced.

[@ismaelrodriguezbarrero4945]

You explained It perfectly, its unappealing getting CC'd forever and getting your casts interrupted or LoS

[@sqwippysquishy5287]

The micro ccs suck, but casuals still prefer them to the 30 second cc chains of classic-slands wow era PvP. They want to be able to play their class and they don’t understand how if you’re a healer, avoiding cc is the name of the game. It’s not just about pumping heals it’s a positioning and cd rotation battle. The micro ccs just make it easier for them bc they’re unavoidable so healers don’t feel like they need to go very out of their way to avoid them

[@popojaga7312]

Yea remember when fake casting was good play and felt rewarding, now if two melee are on me, i cant even dream to cast or waste time faking it

[@noble_draconian]

As someone who's fought classes like sub-rogue in pvp, it's very frustrating to lose control of your character back to back with almost 0 recourse. Not having a mode where ilvl doesn't matter is also pretty frustrating. There are fights you will lose, even if playing better, simply because someone out-geared you or out-leveled you, resulting in their damage being much larger than your damage to them. Destiny solved this problem by making the "casual" pvp modes ignore level, everyone is placed at the same gear level and deals the same amount of damage with the same gear. This makes pvp more skill focused, which makes playing good satisfying. The new player pvp experience is very much "Get steamrolled until you grind out good gear, then get steamrolled even more while you gain mechanics knowledge", all the while getting taunted in chat & teabagged. Definitely not a fun experience and I'm honestly considering sticking to just PvE because of it.

[@Opalline14]

Personally, I think PvP just isn't beginner friendly. If you don't have the best gear or the best knowledge for PvP, then you will constantly be targeted and killed repeatedly by the opposing side, while your own team just insults and berates you. If you even dare ask how something works, you just get hit with "skill issue" and "get gud" without any actual helpful advice (or just kicked out). You're kind of forced to figure it out on your own, and I didn't find it worth it to learn PvP by myself with the community being as toxic as it was at the time.

[@shieldsftw]

Yeah definitely seen that before sadly. I wish there were more chill environments for just learning how to PvP.

[@guywhodoesstuff7302]

​@@shieldsftwmake one

[@shieldsftw]

@@guywhodoesstuff7302 If we get a big enough community then we could definitely make a beginner friendly community or guild for WoW. Good idea!

[@thodorosxanthopoulos]

"ask how something works" did wowhead go down or something? We literally have a big database with every single spell, item etc of the game you can see what everything does

[@guywhodoesstuff7302]

@thodorosxanthopoulos as someone new to the game wow head aint always got the best explanation. Usually, I find it easier to understand asking guild mates or checking yt maybe that's just cuz im new tho

[@TechnoPvProduction]

The other issue is gearing for PvP. Look at it from a new players perspective: I saw a cool streamer guy doing Arenas in WoW, i wanna try.. 1. Have to level to 70 or spend $60 on a boost. Now, can I PvP? No, the gear you get from questing is the ilvl from DF launch still. The gear you get from boosts are 424... so last seasons entry level gear. 2. Go buy gear off the AH. Would a new player know to do that? Most of the BoE green PvP gear costs thousands of gold PER piece. How much gold would you get from questing? From a boost? 3. Where is the PvP vendors? Thats a question ive seen from PvErs that try to get into PvP and ive been asked that by players in game. The guards dont even tell you where. 4.Grind out BGs. Now you know where the vendors are, you have to grind in your questing gear of 330 ilvl or 424 boosted gear against people in 489 - 528 pvp gear. You could run BGB for ilvl scaling but youll still be at a disadvantage. 5. Now you have your full honor set, ready to do Arenas? The thing you actually wanted to do? Nope, now you need enchants, crafted embellishments, gems, sockets on your neck. Since you spent your time grinding BGs you prib didnt do any farming so you have no gold. How do i get the embellishments? How do i craft? Do you have the gold to even afford it? 6. Addons and Talents. You got your enchants, embellishments, gems and stuff. Can you do Arenas now? No, you didnt set up the required addons to know whats going on. You also didnt setup the required arena123 macros. You didnt get the right talents pvp talents for your spec. 7. Now that youve done all of those things, NOW you can do solo shuffle. If youre dpsing you sit and wait in a 30min+ queue. You finally get, try to attack something an proceed to get obliterated by a DH drooling on his garage door remote. He's using it as a keyboard. Or the DK riding a glad mount on his 17th DK alt cause there's nothing for him to do ingame. You get 100 - 0 in a stun by a rogue that hasnt taken their adderall medication. You go 0 - 6 and get told to kys, uninstall the game, etc. 8. You log off an go play whatever game you were playing before. I really hope that plunderstorm was blizzard testing a future of WoW pvp that you can just jump in and play. No gearing, no addons, no bs. Just log in and pvp

[@shieldsftw]

I can definitely see this from new player perspective and its definitely horrible. In addition you need to farm conquest gear after your honor gear set. I would love it if people were allowed to just play the game and not go through this hassle.

[@MrTussbon]

Id like to add that also having a job and not being able to set aside time to grind for said gear; ends up putting you behind and not as practiced as those who play everyday. Not something you can just jump into casually and enjoy.

[@user36003]

It takes literly 3hours of bg ques max to get full honor gear wtf people are on about crying that they need to "grind" or "put a lil time" in mmo game but want everything to be handed to them on a plate , so funny .

[@Szhusma]

The thing is that this is not necessarily a problem for PvP specifically. This can also be applied to PvE. As a lot of the things you listed above are steps necessary to compete in the games more difficult content altogether. In PvE you do have some easier difficulties to ease you into it and slowly progress into the harder content. While in PVP you can be directly thrown into competing against people who already have a lot of experience that they have gained from playing the game for several years. And because the potential skill ceiling is so high in WoW, the gap between good and bad players can be really big.

[@MFTomp09]

On the other end, I started the season with max honor so I bought a full set of honor. Took 2ish weeks with the conquest cap to get full conquest gear. Now it’s uncapped and you can fully gear an alt in a week. Fully gemmed and enchanted in max gear. What the heck do I take in my vault? Nothing has any value in my vault. There’s no sense of progression like there is with mythics and raids. It is super easy to gear alts though as not only am I capped on flightstones and I can buy boxes of gear with flightstones but I can do the same with all the conquest I can’t spend on anything else.. I don’t know how they could fix this as you want everyone in pvp to be equal gear lvls for fairness. But it makes gearing super fast and boring at the same time. I still enjoy pvp just as much as I like running keys and raids

[@holygrail194]

A huge issue that I personally see with Retail PvP in particular is there is like no class individuality anymore. Everyone has stuns, some sort of heal, something to get away super quick, disarms, blah blah blah. It seems from Classic up to about Cataclysm, classes had purpose. By that I mean, there's a reason you wanted an arms warrior in your BG group or a disc priest, etc.

[@shieldsftw]

Yeah. It'd be nice to have a bit more spec/class identity in retail.

[@devouringfamine2427]

of course elemental shaman its the same as a dh of coruse... yea unholy dk its the same clas that rogue can do of course...

[@VDViktor]

@@devouringfamine2427 wow youre so cool for being a contrarian. I bet all your classmates are impressed by this comment. But normal people understood what the op meant perfectly, because he obviously isnt being literal, and he doesnt think that all classes are LITERALLY IDENTICAL you absolute 🤡

[@damionmcvey5272]

I got tired of running into multi r1 glads at 1400-1600 constantly.

[@bulkathos5207]

then stop smurfing

[@paololoveless5618]

Mutli r1 actually being duelist most of the time nice bait my guy

[@mushy6686]

literally doesn't happen. starting MMR every season is around 1800 and R1 glads zoom through the ladder to the spots where they belong. and most glads if they do return will return to their left off MMR from previous seasons. so you'll next to NEVER see a glad down in 1400 unless its either a bought account or its their family playing their account saying you're running into R1s at 1400 is a excuse for not having skill and blaming other players for your mistakes

[@bulkathos5207]

@@mushy6686 how much u getting paid to defend this crap of a game?

[@peterman8848]

The major thing they can do is make the ui actually show you what it happening to your character and what the enemy is doing. Omnibar looks like heiroglyphics to most people. They could easily create a tutorial mode, where you start in a 1v1 with your class vs another bot, they start doing things slowly and explaining what their major cooldowns do and how to look out for it and counter it.

[@shieldsftw]

True and real!

[@DioBrando-ln1to]

This is an awesome reply! I want to expand on it a little bit. A more advanced feature of this tutorial say after you're able to 1v1 decently, it introduced you into more complicated scenarios such as being opened on by a rogue whilst in a fight, or a caster targeting you mid fight, a healer begins supporting your opponent, etc. Scenarios like these are perfect introductions into battleground and 3v3 fights, where pressure is on and you are at a disadvantage. Being able to practice these situations would be helpful for new and more experienced players alike.

[@EMdragonKnight]

I'd argue that's part of the "fun" of pvp. Similar to how in pve you learn fight mechanics. Similarly you learn mechanics of other classes and the safety of pillars.

[@sseetthh]

so PvE? lmao

[@sseetthh]

​@@DioBrando-ln1to so literally any content youd ever queue for besides m+ and high rated arenas? go duel and practice. people dont want to get good. they want being good handed to them. doesn't matter how its done. anyone who has any possible interest in PvP can fathom the idea of trinketing a stun. it's really not that complicated. and if they can't, they REALLY need to choose another game to do pvp in and stick to world questing. there are countless in depth guides on youtube that are far more valuable than anything they'd ever implement. and if researching something briefly is too far of a stretch, then they probably don't give a fuck and never would. (and they're also prolly retarded but thats neither here nor there)

[@nedtruck]

because I compete with people every day, I don't feel like doing it when I'm supposed to be relaxing

[@アマ-p2l]

nothing's more relaxing than owning noobs. if you're good enough you will barely meet players who are able to compete with you (talking about more balanced expansions). so if you don't want to become good enough to not have to constantly focus and stress, then you're probably dealing with bad game design. a game should reward you for improving and competing. just like they won't balance the game they also can't manage to make it appealing in any other way.

[@Ninetailsmaster16]

@@アマ-p2l yeh...most of us that feel this way just don't care about "owning noobs" lol. I work 12 hours at a stressful job and dealing with annoying people that tell me I'm not doing anything right even though I try my best. That's EXACTLY what PVP is like too. Not doin that for ANOTHER 3-5 hours before bed.

[@アマ-p2l]

@@Ninetailsmaster16 Every single issue with PVP can be attributed to bad game design. It's NOT the stress or PVP itself. You're probably not playing a class that's fun or interactive, otherwise how can it be stressful? PvP doesn't feel rewarding, otherwise why wouldn't you be willing to take up a stressful task no matter what your situation IRL is like? "I'm not doing anything right even though I try my best" sounds like people are just flaming you. But the this game is actually so awfully designed that they might be 100% correct. For example in Burning Crusade your skill level as a warrior simply doesn't matter until you get a spellreflect macro. Everyone will flame you if you don't have one. You're "not doing anything right even though you try your best" unless you start CODING and installing addons as if they were cheat consoles in a video game that's meant to relax you. So I hope you can now agree that it's not really about the toxic community, the stress and all that, it's just insanely awful game design which completely ruins the experience to a point where you don't even think it can be fixed and the community is so frustrated they take it out on new players.

[@Error-rc9es]

​​@@アマ-p2lnah dude. its NOT the mechanics or the rewards lol. its literally that i do not want to fight other real people. short of removing players entirely from pvp theres really nothing you could do to get me to engage in these game modes. and even then playing against bots in those scenarios sounds awful. so yeah, its a cursed problem, and it is a fools errand to continue to try and entice people like me to do it. you could literally offer me real world money and still could not get me to queue lol.

[@アマ-p2l]

@@Error-rc9es Fair enough, so there's pacifists, too. It should be a minority though. Usually if you're playing a multiplayer game you're willing to play against other players. A lot of people I took under my umbrella first didn't want to but ended up considering PVP the most fun you could have in the game short of the best server events in history. But I still don't think it's a fools errand. Think about alterac valley. The objective is literally PvE. Playing alterac as a maintank with a decent group is basically PvE just better, but due to game design I completely understand you if you say in practice it ends up being worse. Theoretically it should be better though, you can just add more strategy and layers to PvE and use whatever vibe/engagement you're looking for as part of PvP. TL;DR There's a reason PvE servers were the minority. If it wasn't for bad game design you would accept PVP as part of the game and roll with it, and the game wouldn't punish you if you needed a break, if you're still learning, if you don't like killing other players, whatever it is.

[@jaeshin6200]

The existence of rogues singlehandedly makes pvp unappealing.

[@shieldsftw]

Haha, they are a pain in the ass sometimes, I admit.

[@candlestyx8517]

Rogues and Blood DKs

[@thoughtank1019]

I think games try to give rogues chances to get kills in bgs, thus making them quite powerful, as they are very vulnerable out in the open in group combat, they just need a bit more survivability, and less burst. For example, taking less damage when attacked by more than one player.

[@VVinsanitYY]

Yea and all the 3 button classes make it very fun😂

[@ThyFleshConsumed]

Hey no lie. I got a rogue and I hate other rogues. They're built to be trolls.

[@Laptican]

As a PvE'er i simply just don't like PvP because you're playing against players. It's that simple for me

[@jubbin4849]

I raided top 25, I've been glad, I pushed in the first weeks to 2100 many times for the mandatory gear rolls, and played against/usually lost to some of the best players(learning the hard way that Pikaboo content farms and lies about people he just played against if their playstyle frustrates him, framing them for shit talking when his stream loses momentum, very mature.) It's often framed as a skill or fear issue but "I don't like the content" is the answer for almost every PvE player I know. We were forced to be competent at it, forced to participate, and still prefer other PvP content like OSRS PKing, Counterstrike, Tarkov, DotA, etc. to WoW's and most of the time it's just that simple.

[@thenerdbeast7375]

Want me to PvP? Fix the barrier to entry. To PvP you have to have your face pushed in repeatedly to get enough pity honor to cobble together your first PvP set, then get your face pushed in slightly less hard to earn stronger pvp gear before you can actually start to have fun. While PvE gearing is going through increasingly harder content, with PvP it is straight into the deep end.

[@shieldsftw]

Yeah, not a very good experience for someone wanting to try out PvP. Btw in retail you don't need to upgrade your gear with honor anymore. It has maximum ilvl in PvP after just buying the piece of conquest gear. But still PvP gearing is a gruesome grind most people don't want to go through.

[@user36003]

There is no "honor upgrade" for pvp gear .. you buy it and its max lvl in pvp scale ... when was the last time you played wow? 8 years ago? It takes less then 3h for full honor gear , and for conques sry its an mmo and it has weekly cap but thats how mmos work its not COD or BF2042 preloadouts.

[@thenerdbeast7375]

@@user36003 I didn't mean literal upgrading like PvE pieces, I meant replacing it with better pvp gear.

[@thenerdbeast7375]

@@shieldsftw Altered to better clarify what I meant.

[@Lhitri]

What barrier to entry? You get your honour set in the first 2 hours and cap your conquest weekly, easy as fuck. Just do the weekly quests and you will already be overcapped...

[@hkviper6566]

Couldnt believe my eyes when i saw u had 19 subscribers.. the video quality is on par with the all the big wow channels

[@shieldsftw]

Thanks man! Warms my heart :)

[@Metsa25]

I can't believe this wasn't addressed as a major issue. WAY too many open world pvp'ers are giant, festering, A-holes. When I started playing WoW I just assumed that Horde v Alliance was going to be a thing. After a day or so of being camped, spit on, shit on, laughed at (by people usually many levels above me) I decided I was done with pvp. The only time I have gone back was to get a reward I particularly liked. Obviously not all pvp players suck as human beings, but there are more than enough to make it unappealing to me.

[@shieldsftw]

Yeah world PvP is almost everytime unfair and not a good experience for the recieving end. Good point!

[@fesco4752]

world pvp is shit, that why pvp sever faild and warmode also sucks, you have youst your usal gankers, +10 or 20 level aboce or like the one max level with fully bis gear who also gangbang in gropus, and even in 1vs, if another max levelk palyer come or you swich onj your main, the moun on teh fleiing mount, laugh and spit on your. They nor here for pvp, just to anny and ruin some peoples day, nod niot for for pvp on even terms

[@TheytellToomanylies]

This was me in 07 not pvp since

[@LegendaryOldwarrior]

It use to be fun when WOW first started. The crossroads was one of best pvp times for World PVP mainly because everyone was around the same level for a while. As a DAOC player coming to WOW I was use to pvp so it was fun to start. Over time it just became what you described. Just camping. I swear if they put in relics like they have in DAOC, world pvp would probably be crazy good. I know they tried I believe back in burning crusade to add areas your faction could control, however it just wasn't done well enough. Hard to remember as this was what back in 07, but it just didn't feel like it could get more people to do world pvp. Now if they had like 2 or 3 relics were one gives 25% crit in pve, one gives 25% haste in pve, etc., that would get world pvp popping. Not sure how that would work with how servers work now and of course only having 2 factions where one can have way more people.

[@ApexWolfPR]

going around the world collecting mogs, doing mythic dungeons and just over all having a good time alone or with your friends seems more appealing than having to deal with class balance and engage in a stupidly toxic environment, like i get people who like pvp as they like being competitive and all that but it is simply not my cup of tea

[@vasilboev1383]

fair enough but I'd disagree that pvp is a toxic environment... it might be because there's less people in PVP but I've had hundreds more toxic pve encounters... people often just leave m+ and screw up keys because they think something went wrong. pvp is just like m+ IMO... if you have the friends to play with - it's great and if you have to pug - it's not that great... but I'd say playing pvp alone has been much less toxic than playing pve alone (although there's too much downtime in between gameplay)

[@thoughtank1019]

That is all true, but dam! when you get your first kill, or when you get better enough, where you start getting up there close to top kills, is all very, very rewarding. The thrill of the kill, the adrenalin rush, lol, the feeling is amazing. Nothing in life worth achieving, will come easy, nothing.

[@HellDarkyan]

This man represents me, i do not hate pvp at all, i mean some times it's fun get into casual bg, untill random dude full conquest appear and ruin the experience of all the players... But fin in over all. But the world PVP man that shit is just pain bro i just want to do My fcking world quest without having 1 rougue cced me to death or a warr that one shots me, adding the war mode it's the only reason i didn't dropped the Game and maybe it's just me but the peopple that cry about the warmode its just for not having rookies to bully, its just my thinking instance pvp good (sometimes) world PVP BAD

[@rallymurrah]

As a pvper Collecting Mogs and Mythic dungeons is boring af. It’s the same thing every time and you know exactly what to expect. As a PVPer I believe we are the most Actually skilled players. Cuz once your good at PVP then PVE is literally braindead all you do is press the same rotation basically

[@busterbrown3790]

I avoid PVE to avoid toxic players. PVP has less toxicity IMO.

[@TeTaongaKorora]

tbh I was surprised neither of my 2 biggest reasons came up. #1 in every single pvp game/game mode a huge portion people are incredibly overcompetitive, sweaty, toxic, and just generally unkind. Pvp is inherently an activity that encourages these behaviours and it's just not something I want to spend my relaxation time dealing with. I'm not sure that's something that even *is* resolvable, as it's the case in every pvp game. #2 in every game that has both pvp and pve, pvp players act like pve players need to be convinced into pvp and the game needs to be more friendly to pve players. I disagree; it's a different game. It would be really weird for Starcraft players to rework their game in hopes of drawing in more Civilisation players. To me, WoW pvp is just an outright different game than WoW pve and I don't really anticipate any changes to it changing my lack of desire to play it.

[@loftus4453]

One word sums up what is wrong with WoW PVP: Toxicity. As a perpetual beginner in PVP who only engages in the activity when I need an item for PVE I can say it’s a thoroughly unpleasant experience. I’ve been yelled at, kicked out of the group and just generally harassed too many times to recount. It’s a terrible way to spend your time in game.

[@musicilike69]

Because they see WHAT YOU JUST UTTERED. Look at it from the other side. Some PvE'r who just has a weak gear slot and is looking for a filler item while they get their desired one drops into your group and intends on using more knowledgeable players to get what they want. Thy don't have the right enchants/gear/stat balance and have made no effort whatsoever in their jump in. And the same goes in reverse too. I can't count the number of pro players kicked from raid groups because some one types - so and so is in PvP gear. So what is toxicity. Have the right gear on or at least look like you're there to play and win and not just tourist what you want?

[@loftus4453]

@@musicilike69 Can you solve the age old chicken and egg question? I want to PVP. I have no PVP gear so no one wants me there and harasses me until I give up. How do I get the PVP gear? Everyone yells - you have to do PVP and earn it! I’ve been raiding for almost 20 years and never once have I seen a person decked out in PVP gear kicked out of my raid because of the gear.

[@videowatcher37]

as a semi-new player that mostly fixates on pve content - i 99% of the time do not know whats going on whenever i do try to pvp and it's overall extremely off-putting, heres why: - lack of visual clarity - not just ground clutter from AoE spells, 6 rows of buffs/debuffs, but also for example casting animations which are sometimes the same for multiple spells. it's alot easier to read an ability by its animation rather than reading cast bars to determine on whether or not its worth using an interrupt - severe button bloat - i get it complexity = higher skill ceiling, but it also massively increases the skill floor, which makes it all the more daunting to inexperienced players. it feels alot like playing league for the first time (getting absolutely pissobliterated in your first 100 games), but worse because the amount of info to take in at once is much larger and it feels borderline impossible to even guess your opponents next move unless you grew up on wow pvp. - other games simply offer a more enjoyable pvp experience (both casual and competitive), people play mmos for different reasons and a lot of players just choose to pvp on different games. - lack of a proper tutorial/practice tool vs. AI no idea what needs to be changed about pvp as i'm clearly too inexperienced, i just wanted to give my 2 cents to the topic.

[@shieldsftw]

Haha, I feel you bro. You really hit the spot with all of these points. WoW PvP is very hard and confusing at first. Lets hope Blizz can do something to lower the entry barrier, also a practise tool as you mentioned would be very nice!

[@videowatcher37]

@@shieldsftw i think the big reason why plunderstorm was so fun in comparison was its simplicity. it was very easy to get in and get a couple kills, but you were also still able to make flashy plays. Having everyone enter the arena at an even playing field (e.g. gear) also helped alot. Plunderstorm renown as you said also helped make the time spent not feel wasted because of all the cosmetic rewards. I hope they iterate on that formula and release something similar again.

[@vibesmagma8451]

I had the same problems, I went in with the mindset of “I don’t do pvp it’s okay to get farmed” after a month I felt like I truely understood how to bypass a few of the issues you listed. It’s very hard to get into but it is rewarding

[@videowatcher37]

@@vibesmagma8451 fair but you cannot expect everyone to do the same. not everyone has that kind of free time spending 100+ hours learning just the basic fundamentals of a gamemode when games like valorant, cs or even chivalry are almost intuitive to pick up in comparison.

[@Trashloot]

@@videowatcher37 Its funny how you say that cs is easy to get in to. Because i would argue that it is not. The way you have to stand still before you can shoot is completly different compared to other shooters (except valorant). There is a ton to know (how to throw grenades, how to defend and attack certain maps, all the callouts) and the difference between a good and a bad player is massive (you can get oneshot long before you even find the enemy). And i still agree with you when we compare cs to wow. I had so much more fun when getting in to cs. You start of by playing against other players. You are quickly in and out of a match instead of having to queue for ever only to get graveyard camped for longer. And i felt like i could contribute to the game even while i was shit. The damage i dealt o an enemy was never healed so my team mates had an easier time killing the person who just killed me. And giving intel on enemy positions is huge. I swear i climbed through my early cs ranks just by calling out enemy movements and enabling my team mates to deal with them. I was so hard outclassed in terms of skill because i ranked up to fast ^^.

[@Akihito_Kanbara]

Better question: Whats to like? PvP is just a massive ego stroke. Nothing about it is balanced either, so if you arent playing the meta classes, its highly unlikely youre gonna succeed. When it comes to open world, the idea of getting interrupted by some pally spamming space bar and bubbles, slapping you while you cant do anything to them, all while youre just trying to PLAY THE GAME, is anti-fun. When it comes to arenas and battlegrounds, same crap. Not meta? Then you're not playing. And if you come out on top, what do you get? Thats right, the right to /spit on people while they walk back to their corpse. There isnt any skillful challenge. Its just a huge chaotic mess full of toxicity (yes, I know pve is toxic too).

[@shieldsftw]

Sad to hear thats you're experience with PvP. I personally disagree with this. I always play shadowpriest/disc priest no matter the meta and I enjoy PvP very much still. It feels good to see you can still compete even without playing the "meta" specs by just using the skills you've learned. A lot of people are too meta focused, but the fact is you can get high rating with any spec you want, for some it might be a bit easier and for some a bit harder depending on the meta. I suggest you just play what you like and learn to master that.

[@Akihito_Kanbara]

@@shieldsftw I don't play meta. Ever. I only play what's fun, because that's what games are for. My comment was about balance, or the complete lack there of. But it doesn't matter. PvP in general is anti-fun, only made worse by the majority of people playing it being extremely toxic.

[@Nekozji]

Nice to hear a calm and thoughtful breakdown of why PvP is so unapproachable for people who aren't already doing it. My first and only experience of rated PvP was Shadowlands. Guild group, all raiders with like 4-5 mythic bosses progress, and decently geared within that context. Only one of us had any real PvP experience but we made sure to get our trinkets sorted and listened to instructions and planned out primary enemy targets during the prep time. We got absolutely annihilated, over and over, by groups way above us in skill and gear. We never made it to the first threshold where we would have been allowed to upgrade our PvP gear because we started losing rating before we reached it. After about 3 months, the group fizzled and we went back to our PvE lives. As for the EBG premades; they just sign up in groups at exactly the same time using a countdown and check that everyone gets the invite at the same time. Mostly 5 players get missed out, but sometimes they all get in together. The servers would need to detect these mass-queue events and intentionally break them up and ensure that they aren't allowed into the same instance.

[@YoDirk]

Saw Venruki's reaction video. Leaving a comment for the algorithm. Well done!

[@shieldsftw]

Thank you sir!

[@lowpinglag]

Short answer is I'm too old 😅 I used to love playing death match or team death games, way back from Doom, Quake 2 and 3, Half Life and a little known mod for Half Life called Counter Strike, Unreal Tournament, but as time has passed on, my reflexes are not what they used to be, and the appeal of PvP in any game including WoW has kind of fizzled out for me. Nowadays, I play WoW to chill and relax. Good video 👍

[@thoughtank1019]

I doubt you are older than me, and I love PvP. Hint I saw the 70s, lol.

[@lowpinglag]

@@thoughtank1019 Ha! That's awesome 😁 I'm 53, I was born in 1971. But as I mentioned, the thrill and excitement of PvP just is not there anymore for me, and my dexterity has lost a few skill points.

[@Thezftw]

Usually dexterity and reflexes are not all that important in most games (even things like Counter-Strike), anticipation and thinking forward is a much more beneficial skill. Reaction times go way down when you know to expect something and you aren't merely reacting out of sensory input (like what just happened to happen on the screen...). Not saying 50+ year old gentlemen don't experience any slowdowns, they certainly do, but when I see dudes in their 30's saying they got too old and then point to physical issues, that's just not true. People just got more things to care about and games had to move aside. 😊

[@thoughtank1019]

@@lowpinglag I know what you mean, that is why I now only play when I feel the urge and don't take it as serious as I used to and take all the breaks I need, but sometimes I do play for hours, lol. I was born in 63.

[@thoughtank1019]

@@Thezftw Oh, but they can be, when you are going up a very fast class like melee, especially when they hit like a truck. But I do agree that thinking ahead, anticipating the players next move is crucial, as you can jump or quickly counter, spells like charge or heroic leap etc...

[@borga6566]

One of my biggest problems with WoW's PvP, as a collector, is how prevalent FOMO is with the seasonal rewards. I find it extremely de-motivating considering all of these other problems listed in the video as well (that I also agree with, as someone who's been playing since 2006). Every class has an Elite set that goes away, there's the capes, the really cool weapon enchants, and of course the generally unobtainable gladiator mount. That is A LOT of really cool artwork just going away forever, every single season. I wish that those seasonal rewards were handled more like how the Vicious PvP mounts are -- where they become obtainable again after the season, but only if you get the current seasonal rewards first and progress the bar or ladder again. That wouldn't make them any easier to get or less coveted than before - if anything it might motivate people to actually try and get a reward they REALLY wanted in the past, but maybe didn't have the time to get it for X, Y, or Z reasons, even if it's ultimately still just as hard to get those rewards, if not harder. I do, however, think titles and achievements should be excluded from this - because I think having that kind of prestigious reward remain unobtainable is fine and a good way to differentiate people who where there at the time vs. those who weren't. As a side note, I also wish the WoW devs would handle PvE rewards like the M+ mounts in the same way too. But again, not the titles nor the achievements themselves. I have always hated seeing how disappointed new players get whenever I tell them that they can't get a cool reward anymore. The vast majority of games do not do this, and some big budget games like Halo are even moving away from this unobtainable FOMO model. If something cool exists, then I think any player should be able to aspire towards it -- even if it's something really hard to get (like a gladiator mount) and may even take them years to obtain. It creates more goals and more evergreen rewards for the game.

[@shieldsftw]

Great points! What you're saying is very true. It's sad all the seasonal mogs become unobtainable after the season ends and it would be amazing to have some vicious saddle type item for buying the older sets if you reach the required rating this season.

[@borga6566]

@@shieldsftw Tbh I'm surprised that you agreed with me lol, I generally don't expect other long-time fans of the game to agree with something like I've suggested. A lot of people argue that my ideas would ruin/remove the prestige of some things, but I've personally never seen it like that. It makes me happy that someone as well-informed as you agrees with me!

[@BloodVixen]

As a vanilla player who began their journey in Azeroth back in January 2004, my involvement in PvP has been very little to none due to how unappealing it has been at the entry level. People queuing up for a "get farmed" simulator doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Before people start crying "skill issue," I would like to state the issue is more nuanced than that. Plunderstorm was a nice middle ground the development team found, but sadly it was more side-loaded instead of being part of your characters' progression. The gearing system needs to be looked at again with an emphasis on who you queue up with in battlegrounds and such. People want to play with others who are close enough to equal in skill. The game needs to work on it's matchmaking systems better.

[@Lenny1305]

Anything that is not rated is just for grinding items... otherwise you do Arena or Rated BGs.

[@RandySnarsh]

​@@Lenny1305open world pvp is the most fun. Arena. Dungeons, bgs are for geat grinding for WPvP 😊

[@steve1189]

Thats a big one! Always has been :)

[@Zemilia22]

The barrier to entry for pvp from a skill perspective is high sure but that's why ratings exist and why if your not the best you will quickly get pushed into a skill bracket where people are just as good or bad as you are however you want to put it. Adding that into a casual format like normal bgs/skirms would splinter the playerbase so much that people at the top/low end would never get games because there isn't enough players to sustain that. The gearing system is as easy as it can be without removing all progression when it comes to pvp. Between crafted gear with sparks and entry lvl gear that you can just buy for 1-2k a piece on the AH, world quests giving you honor and conquest equivalent gear as drops as well as having a vendor to specifically get ones you need. The quests that just require you get honor or play a specific mode and don't even need to win. You can honestly gear having never set foot into a qued pvp activity will it take longer sure but that's the trade off you make by not engaging with the majority of the pvp content the game has. (If you want to gear so you can play mid season, Do the world quests and the singular world pvp quest each week it takes like 1-2 hours and you will be a mix of honor/conquest gear in no time) Coming in the war within they will have rated bgs you can que for on your own, you will eventually get put into a skill bracket where you are going against people your skill. You sadly can't base it off ilvl, unless they wanna bring back rating=ilvl upgrades because right now the current system is as friendly to a casual player as it can be by having only cosmetics tied to skill and you will eventually regardless of how good or bad you are reach the same ilvl as a awc competitor. Also if your problem is you don't want to que into stuff and just get farmed, find a community to play with there are alot of them out there that help people gear up and get the basics down you just have to actively look for them.

[@memofreire]

skill issue

[@txnafish]

i dont play pvp anymore because 1. my friends quit 2. solo shuffle is way too toxic 3. my main has been bad since s2 of SL. how many years has it been since then again? no other spec appeals to me

[@JuliusGoatfanatic]

Same lmao I went to a private server of my fav patches for my spec tho and im having the time of my life rn

[@dant7677]

I learned the game, in Vanilla WOW, as a holy priest on a PVP server (because that's where my friends were, and they needed a healer). Basically any time I heard the sound of someone stealthing, I knew I was about to get one-shot. Fine, I can rez and go back to my business, right? Wrong. The rogue is still there, hanging out to one-shot me again. And again. By the time WotLK rolled around, I'd given up even trying to survive and instead made an emote macro (/flap) to call them chickens, and I'd just spam that after my corpse run. Maybe with a /spit thrown in. The only way out of the loop was either (a) plead in general chat for a max-level character to come chase them away, or (b) go afk during my corpse run and do something else while hoping the rogue would get bored and leave. So... the question before the house today is, why wouldn't I like PVP? Hmm, let me think.

[@htowndood]

Wow community is so toxic I don't want to PVP

[@Tidy_Kiwi]

Mainly this. I'd love to get all the gear transmogs, but I'd rather kill myself than do PVP to earn them.

[@dlow3459]

Get gud kid 🤷🏼‍♂️ nah nah I’m jk 😂😂☠️😭

[@TNshortss]

No matter what game you play 99% of the players are toxic idk why

[@jeff230394]

Brother how is it my fault that you suck

[@kimrasmussen7188]

@@TNshortss nope, some of the smaller mmos have much better communities. of course there are still some bad apples, but not to the same degreee that this game has

[@ytano5782]

Everytime, when I try PvP, I was shredded in seconds and I‘ve no idea was happened. This is not really motivating.

[@fredriklindemark7527]

I decidedd to learrn pvp - love it. I said to myself untill i have played 1000 rounds I will not even get annoyed with losiing and insteadd focus on how Ican imrpove, not caring about if I think someone else is doing wrong. It is so hard as a new pvper but highlyrewaarding

[@Mars-et8vc]

The only way I would play pvp would be if they removed addons and made the ui standard, something like how plunderstorm was. Addons have no place in a competitive game I don't care how accustomed players have gotten to them. Blizz could certainly make any addon they think is nessesary built into the game.

[@shieldsftw]

I agree, needing to download addons from a third party website is ridiculous and only raises the barrier to entry. First blizz needs to make the combat more easily understandable and implement some addons to their own UI. Then they should remove combat addons in my opinion.

[@robertmarlow6674]

@@shieldsftw i don't think blizzard has ever shown they care enough about pvp to commit to such a massive change.

[@shieldsftw]

@@robertmarlow6674 Well, at the same time they would fix the same issue for PvE, so we have hope! xd

[@0Nekromancer0]

This isnt only PvP problem. Even PvE side of the game have the same issue. Problem is that basic blizz UI is not good enought to handle the complexity of the game. In dungeons, most times without Nameplate addon, you just cant see casts. Without MDT you have no idea what each dungeon mob does and how you should calculate your route. In PvP, i immagine this is even worse with tracking enemy CDs, CC dimminishings etc. If they completly overhauled the In game UI and basicly implemented seveeal addons In to the game it would be possible to block all addons, but now in the state the game UI is, it would be disaster

[@laggmonstret]

@@0Nekromancer0 This, give the UI a overhaul and add things you need addons for, like track Enemy CD's etc and a specific Arena UI.

[@Alice_Typhon]

I've gotten glad 5 times over 3 different xpacs. The main thing I hate is that every season is full of exploits and you really have to abuse that or run the meta comp of the season. Back in the day you could really play anything and climb and have fun. Now you get rolled immediately. Plus now the number of people pvping is so small that you have huge margins of player experience and knowledge. You either play with someone who's trying it out for the first time or a 10 time gladiator on his 4th alt of the season. There's no in between anymore.

[@bababaloona]

Yep. Meta gaming fucking sucks for arena. Back then you were either testing stuff out, or finding out when watching a pvp montage from your class on warcraftmovies lol

[@Jovana-jl9qq]

Not discouraging at all for a person who got home exhausted of work, just trying to have little bit of fun.

[@nikolaykirchev5784]

that`s the deal thow, i relly wana play wow pvp but ther is so little amount of ppl plain it. and most of them are toxik. how is gona help me out

[@ScorpioVlll]

"I've gotten glad 5 times over 3 different xpacs" No you didn't

[@Alice_Typhon]

@@ScorpioVlll BC S1, S2 on BG Ruin. Then I started pve over pvp. I got BFA S4 glad playing hero and SL S1 playing DH boomy, SL S3 playing hero. After picking up pvp again I realized how trash it is now and stopped.

[@bugtfishman9481]

Maybe something like a spectator mode in the arena will help attract attention to pvp content. For example, you open a tab, select 2v2 or 3v3, then you are loaded into the arena where you fly in an invisible camera and watch a random battle in the arena. This is roughly how it could work, but I’m sure that blizzard could implement everything in a much more interesting way.

[@shieldsftw]

That would be cool! I mean blizz already has the viewing tool for arena world championships so why not let players use it. Its much more visually readable than base game UI.

[@MatejjSlackermaster]

In my opinion you are asking the wrong question(how to convert PVE player to PVP), why non wow players dont start play wow for PVP. I play PVE and i play as tank, can i play PVP as tank? .. NO. Do I want to be forced to play PVP to be able to progress PVE? ..NO ( reminder in BFA i had to farm the PVP essence to play M+, in shadowlands best in slot items like on use trinket was from PVP)

[@dandroid98]

My favorite part of playing WoW retail pvp is fighting a healer 1v1 for 5 minutes, realizing 4 minutes in that I dont have enough damage to kill him.

[@devouringfamine2427]

you have the damage to kill a healer the problema that you use bad... and its your problem not the game

[@Nothing_._Here]

@@devouringfamine2427 Found the resto druid

[@SacredBlazeXxX]

The queue time is also a huge problem. Sometimes waiting for 40min for a match and if you lose you quite literally lost 40min and that feels like a kick in the balls. If the queues were like 1-2 min long and if you lose is not big deal, just queue again and a couple of minutes you'll have another shot.

[@shieldsftw]

Yeah, Its a huge problem.

[@Vezaiho]

I was traumatized when I grinded to 1.8k rating in season 1 of BfA, as a ret Pala I felt like I was sitting in a wheelchair, with all the slows and crowd control too. Then you have all the groups asking for past rating achievements. Just no, never again.

[@nocxii]

Unfairness is a big one, even without premades, unranked BGs very quickly turn into one-sided stomps. Battleground Blitz is not immune from this. Infact it might be worse since the format is so quick, most players just opt to going afk the moment they feel it's a stomp, making the problem even bigger for players that remain playing. Another thing I didn't see mentioned is that solo shuffle at the lower ranks tend to turn into 6-0 stomps aswell, this was mentioned for healers but it applies to everyone getting into the game mode. It's very easy to in lower ranks of solo shuffle to detect the weak link and just bully that players 6 rounds in a row. This problem is made worse by other players complaining when it is their turn to play with the weak link. This issue goes away when you climb, but I imagine there's definitely players that stop right there. As a relatively new players to PvP In Dragonflight, it definitely tilted me and required me to shift my attitude from "I am gonna play against players my rank, maybe I'll tie" to "I'm gonna get stomped, so instead of getting angry, I should instead try to detect the mistakes I make and learn from them". I got to 1600 rating in Solo Shuffle as a healer in Season 1, which is the first time I ever did arena so I was pretty happy. Personally I didn't mind the downsides of playing healer vs the incredibly fast queue times, though after returning to the game now (in season 4), I'm definitely having a hard time to adjust to this season's high-damage meta. As for PvP gear, the biggest issue here is HP. HP can be used, especially in arena, to detect which players has the lowest ilvl gear and thus is most likely to be the least experienced player.

[@nocxii]

Just elaborating some more, since I have some more experience playing Season 4 (though not ranked) - Addons are a huge one, just the fact that you are almost completely unaware of what's happening without addons is an issue. Finding the right addons, but also having to tweak them after getting them is a huge issue for me. ESPECIALLY that last one, having to sift through lists of abilities and see exactly which effects I should track and which I shouldn't is incredibly overwhelming. - After having some more experience in Battleground Blitz (and Arena Skirmish) I cant overstate just how incredibly frequent one-sided stomps are. This is one of the first types of PvP new and inexperienced players interact with, and it's some of the worst this game has to offer. Whenever I see this happen in Battleground Blitz there is an almost 100% correlation between who wins and loses and which side has the most Honor rank, especially on the lower end. Honor rank is no indicator of skill but in this case it almost always determines games.

[@rickroll9705]

Unfairness is an element in any pvp game.

[@Asubatsu]

PvP in WoW got tedious. It went from burning down someone faster to this long and drawn-out tug of war where your only window to win is with cooldowns and if you miss it you have to wait. A 30 second fight at most in vanilla became a 5-10 minute slog in retail.

[@vitoriac.7032]

PVE: Satisfaction when managing to kill a boss with many difficult mechanics to master, satisfaction in completing a high mithyc key and increasing your raider io score, a gigantic world to explore new maps, mechanics, interesting and fun missions. PVP: Stress about not being able to win a battleground because you only fall into bad groups.

[@shieldsftw]

I would argue you get the same kind of satisfaction when outplaying your enemies in PvP and increasing your rating too. It just sadly requires a loooot of practising and playing before you can start to understand PvP more strategicly. But I definitely get what you're saying. Not everyone wants to throw hundreds of hours on PvP before getting to enjoy it.

[@PsychoMachado]

@@shieldsftw the reward isn't worth the effort compared to pve.

[@hugoboncar]

Those are all of CC types I can think of : fear, horrify, slow, daze, snare, root, stun, banish, incap, charm, polymorphed, disorient, hex, disarm, silence, sleep, grip and perhaps we could even call a kick a for of CC because it locks you out of a school of magic. Those are different effects, meaning if you get hit by them all in a succession without any repeat, they will last for their entire normal duration. That's too much.

[@shieldsftw]

Many of those effects that you listed do still share the same diminishing returns. So you can't get hit by that many in succession without being immune to some of them.

[@hugoboncar]

@@shieldsftw If they do, my bad then. In practice, I still feel like I am being crontrolled for years.

[@ChaosPolzun_Archive]

The main reason I don't like PvP - it's humiliates me. I can complete heroic and epic raids. Reach high keys. Be a hero the world deserves and be on the edge with my hero-pve'ers. Just for some rogue or hunter one shot me in completly humiliating way

[@tubeofpoo2421]

complexity is fine, the real issue is there's no opportunity to learn. the average PvP experience for me at max level is queueing into a game, getting blown up so quickly that i have no chance to figure out what even killed me & maybe learn something from it, then doing it a few more times before getting frustrated and ditching the game mode entirely. the average PvP experience while levelling is queueing into a game, getting globalled by a twink, then ditching the game mode entirely. flattening player stats in PvP would basically solve this issue at a stroke, but the playerbase is resistant to that for some reason.

[@Terowin]

My first wall of text in memory In regards to the 'Most brought up issues' segment - The only two that I think are worth even considering here is the too much CC complaint and the complaint about barriers to entry (arena is garbage). Too much CC is something parroted by most pvpers nowadays including various high rated players, I catch them all the time on twitch whining about micro ccs. The other complaints for the most part I think are kind of ludicrous. They already tried pruning spells from the game in Warlords of Draenor, and when they reworked classes in Legion the classes became a lot more simplified as well imo, and generally among people who play the game a lot pruning spells was an UNPOPULAR decision that was WALKED BACK ON by blizz. Yes you need to understand how every class works in the game to play "optimally"... but a lot of people enjoy those first moments playing and LEARNING a pvp game where things are new to you and you have a learning curve. I'd like to add that in battlegrounds/blitz there are a lot of new players right now so you're not always facing experience either. Learning the game and improving as a player is usually embraced as a part of the experience in the journey into any pvp game -League of Legends, Starcraft 2, Overwatch, any pvp game having complexity or a learning curve is usually something to be celebrated assuming it is balanced. If you want every class to be 1 button and everything to just be handed to you on a silver platter pvp is not for you, you are facing PLAYERS. Pvp has plenty problems like soloshuffle issues, inflation, bg premades, poor class balancing but the idea of the game being too complex is just silly to me... "getting good" at the game IS part of the process. I really dislike this notion that we should simplify everything for people that probably wont play longer than a week, not every game should be made for everyone and trying to appeal to everyone is a mistake on blizzard's behalf, making this game less and less niche and wowee look at that, the game somehow has 11 million LESS subscribers?! Whatever man, the game has plenty problems but like I've explained overcomplexity should not be one of them. Talk about how premades are choking the BG community (the forum is on fire rn), or how RBG is dead, or how soloshuffle wasn't what we wanted with soloq arena, or how they balance pvp and the entire game around M+. Lastly your "PvP Addons" list, I'm assuming you put this on screen as an example of how overcomplicated addons are and how they are a requirement but I'd like to point out: Bartender and Threatplates are cosmetic, Quartz isn't necessary at all, Omnibar is only needed by casters who need to track kicks, Details isn't a requirement to play and the three that are necessary are BigDebuffs, Gladius and Weakauras -But that's only for arena, Gladius is useless in Battlegrounds Duels and WPvP, and the other two you can live without outside of arena as well... Addons are an issue but this is a bit of an exaggeration Just saying'

[@shieldsftw]

Yeah, no , you're right. I agree with everything you say here. Lots of people understood it wrong when it comes to spell pruning. I don't want 1 button specs, I just want the 30-40 button specs to have around 20-25 spells. I think thats a good amount personally. Especially damage modifier spells are the ones you could get rid of or just make them proc from another spell. Ok, when it comes to complexity. Its true, its also what makes the game interesting and allows for a high skill ceiling, but it is a huge turnoff for many players. I dont want to make it non complex, just a little bit simpler with small changes. And about the addons, none of them are "necessary" and I didn't try to imply you NEED those addons. Just an example of how some players, such as me use so many addons because they are much better copared to blizzards own UI. Thanks for taking the time to type that out! You bring up a lot of good points. Maybe its my language barrier that makes some people misunderstand the things I'm trying to say in the video.

[@Terowin]

​@@shieldsftw thanks for responding, yeah although I think pruning was a mistake in the past it is a complicated issue and I can absolutley understand people wanting it, either way your video is great and I love that you asked so many people what they think, restores some faith for me in this community that people want positive change still

[@BingChiller227]

the main problem is that pvp players have literal DECADES of game knowledge and experience stacked up

[@shieldsftw]

Yes, but in rated PvP those players are usually higher up in the ratings unless they're playing on alts. There are also more unexperienced players and new players in PvP. But yeah I know what you mean. Its a lot of learning to do before you can reach the same level of knowledge those people are on.

[@CrazedPhsycho1023]

There’s also really just nothing you get from pvp except the gladiator mount which is basically impossible for a casual to get

[@shieldsftw]

Well, I mean you get elite transmog sets and the seasonal mount or saddle and illusion for 2.1k. But other than that, yeah not a lot of rewards, especially if you are a bit more casual.

[@richardditty5318]

@@shieldsftw Or you can just do heroic raids and/or M+ and get a different color of it. Which is more fun. The problem with PvP is that experienced people are unwilling to help less experienced people because of the skill and gear cap new players have to overcome, not to mention all the annoying addons that are needed. In the end, an MMO like WoW doesn't really make a good PvP game. Especially as implemented today. In the past: BC, WoTLK, and Cata, PvP was fun because no one took it too seriously. It was something you did because you had cleared the raid for this week and had nothing else to do. The nail in the coffin for PvP was mythic plus and the accessibility of alts. As a PvEr why would I put myself through the frustration and toxicity of rated PvP when I can just run M+ or gear out an alt.

[@devouringfamine2427]

@@richardditty5318 but some color are great white season 3 dk are realy good...

[@mismisimognomo101]

Tbh, as a converted PvP player who switched from it, to a purely PvE player nowadays, because of time commitment + less stress involved (IMO). I can tell, just by scrolling a bit and eyeing the comments, that most of the PvE Andys are coping hard AF... Talking about "isn't begginer friendly", "gatekeep", "toxicity" and so on. Dude, you guys literally implemented "Gearscore" to alienate people from content, you guys DEMAND just to get a fucking invite and if i'm "doing bad" you'll kick me straight-up after all the gear checks that comes first instead of helping with rotations or giving me advice on the fight, LMAO !

[@shieldsftw]

Good points! The PvE side of the game does feel much more gatekept especially now as we have solo ques for arenas and BG's.

[@Shadyyus]

Omg this video reminded me why I gave up WOW. There are just too many ways to lose. Pick bad players, forget add-ons, read the wrong guide play the wrong spec. It's nuts and too much trouble to go through.

[@MrDfix1988]

I've played wow since 2004. Always played on a PVP server. Back then I've played arena, bgs and world pvp. Now I'm 20 years older and don't have the nerves for it anymore and am happy they swapped to the war mode model.

[@shieldsftw]

Yeah man, I like the warmode too over the old way with PvP/PvE servers. The option to opt in/out of world PvP makes the most miserable parts of world PvP not so bad.

[@Avictaz]

I play WoW to relax. The WoW PvP scene is literally the opposite of relaxing for me. Only made worse by the toxic atmosphere that plagues PvP. Great video, take my sub! 🙂

[@shieldsftw]

Thanks man! And yea it can be very stressful sometimes, especially in arenas.

[@GrimMelvin]

Well, pvp is a competition between people. So it's not going to exactly be relaxing for many. It's something you have to be in the mood for, if at all. Pvp is pretty stressful for me too, but I do it because I want the mogs and to get them, I have to do pvp. If I could get the elite mogs from somewhere else, I would probably always pick the other option xD

[@john37653]

I used to play feral, tried everything clone, stun, healing, bleeds while running away to not get trained.most complex class but everyone kept shitting on me for not doing enough damage, while they have to press a 2 button combo. If u want fun in pvp just pick a hunter or warrior

[@MrGhost-st7rh]

I can guarantee you that pve is more toxic than pvp in wow

[@86Corvus]

Games are about problem solving so i never understand people who say they want to relax, if you want to relax, take a nap, watch a video

[@BuffaloBanano]

Here's my 2 cents on the CC Problem: I don't think CC should be removed not the amount off CC abilities should be reduced. Instead the amount of TYPES of CC should be reduced. There are Charm, Daze, Fear, Root, Sleep, Slow, Snare, Incapacitate, Disorient and Stun and even Silence and they all have their own Diminishing Return. That makes in WAY too complicated in my opinion. Also there is no way in the game (without Addons) to even know how much DR there is or what ability shares it with which... Like, how am i supposed to know that Sheep and Sap share a DR but Sap and Blind don't? In my opinion they should just get rid of most types of DR for CCs, like have one for CC that gets interupted when you take damage, one for CC that doesnt and just them just all shared them. There would still be a lot of CC but people wouldn't sit in CC for 2 minutes without being able to play and also don't have to sit through 2 hours of research before you know what CC you should uses when playing with another class. BTW I do love PvP eventhough i'm not that good at it, my highest rating ever was 1,9k.

[@shieldsftw]

Yeah man, good points!

[@pkWreck]

Sleep, Fear, Charm are all Disorients, Daze, Snares and slows are the same thing but never DR, though the fact the confusion can even exist just proves your point even more. I'd say the problem is really the amount of micro AoE-CCs have appeared in the game. This is because of the way M+ is designed to be played (Big AoE pulls with AoE CC on the mobs). The nerf to long duration CCs just made micro CCs stronger relatively speaking and exacerbated the problem overall.

[@mexcellent227]

Sap and blind do share DR now. Changed at start of dragonflight.

[@pkWreck]

@@mexcellent227 I believe you are wrong about that as I've played a decent amount of PvP in Dragonflight and haven't heard or seen that anywhere else, but I haven't tested it

[@mexcellent227]

@@pkWreck Nope it's correct. They nerfed it because Sap into blind on healers was an auto force trinket in solo shuffles so they put them on the same DR, this was the same patch they changed the duration of most stuns for most classes.

[@l_Nightbot_l]

Read the comments. People hate: -Other people in pvp -Losing to players that are better than them -Arena -Queue times

[@Gerdoch]

The honour level rewards scale as they do likely because of the reduced number of people getting the higher rewards versus time, effort, and cost involved in making those rewards for Blizzard Employees.

[@shieldsftw]

Yeah, true thats probably partly why it is as it is.

[@julianahavart]

I've been trying to get into Solo Shuffles as a healer main from PvE. People are absolutely, really disgustingly toxic and go out of their way to bash and insult the healer while they don't even know what "peel" means. I'm new to pvp and bad, but going 1-5, learning nothing, gaining nothing but insults just makes me stop time after another

[@shieldsftw]

That sucks to hear! My only advice is to just try to take the games as a learning experience and ignore all the bashing and insulting if you can. Improvement and learning in PvP come through failure. Also just mentioning you are new to PvP can make some people understand the situation. You have to remember that if the teammates are in the same mmr as you, then their skill level is also somwhere near yours so they are also making mistakes, but just projecting their failures on you. Hope you get more reasonable teammates in the future!

[@Thezftw]

I just created a new chat window without party/instance chat and used that while queuing as a healer. Most people don't have anything constructive to say even at higher levels, I just ignore them.

[@thatonedudea]

That's by far the worst part of healing in solo shuffle. Getting cc'd for 8 seconds while the enemy healer free casts, then you get blamed for the loss. And when your teammates are on the other side the cc the hell out of you, so you know they are capable of it.

[@IOSALive]

Shields, great video dude

[@mshepherd324]

Why can’t blizz make a 2’s solo shuffle and not enforce needing a healer? Or even in normal 3’s shuffle, why does there HAVE to be healers?

[@shieldsftw]

Actually imagine if blizzard added DPS solo q for 2's. That would balance out the wait times for regular solo shuffles, since theres more demand for DPS. Also allowing DPS to que for both makes the wait time for 3's feel less painful. I'd love that.

[@Turbotef]

Yeah, that's what I thought we were going to get before DF launched and it completely killed my desire to play the mode when I saw the completely asinine wait times for matches.

[@Turbotef]

Back in TBC-MoP I had fun grinding 2s with my rogue and my cousin's warrior and was just hoping for a random version of that. :/

[@rickroll9705]

imagine the fun of being a warrior getting mtched with a rogue vs a ret and a DK. Thats why. Most 2 comps are insta loss.

[@jane352]

My personal issue with pvp is the players themselves. I got introduced to pvp very early on while I was leveling and that was beyond miserable. I tried getting into pvp but unlike pve where you can find helpful people who will be patient enough to allow you to learn a raid or a dungeon, pvp people just cuss you out. Gankers, min-maxers and sweaty players are the sole reason I don't even approach that style of gaming.

[@razatiger22]

The real reason PVP is dying is because PVP is a young mans game mode and with a game that has an ever aging population, people that may have enjoyed Arena's, Open World PVP and battlegrounds no longer do. It's sad because I love PVP, but you constantly have to stay up to date with metas, you have to fine train your brain to be able to react on the fly, you have to understand completely what your kit does as well as completely understanding what the enemies spec can do. The problem is that PVP is daunting to get into because the people who still play it have been playing it for going on 20 years now.

[@adaneshade]

I think the GW2 PvP "Gearing" is the best I've encountered. Your armor is purely cosmetic in PvP and you select between accessories (neck, rings, etc) with different stat loadouts to make your "build" in tandem with your spec. This way, everyone is at effectively the same item level, and it's easier to access since you just equip a accessories to get your stat allocations. It also scales everyone to the same level while allowing you to gain xp towards the PvE side, but I know wow has a pretty active community who like lower level BGs, so I'm not sure that would work here...

[@shieldsftw]

Sounds good to me! PvP leveling would be super fun.

[@an2c615]

GW2 has such balanced pvp and zero attention to pvp from the devs, we got the same 5 maps and 2 game modes since three expansions ago

[@cyborg-mark-vi]

I'm late to the party, but I would respond to PvP issues by quoting TheRussianBadger from his Halo: Reach video: "Warzone is fun, but getting torn to shreds every game by perfectly optimized characters gets really old really quickly. Everything about Reach was so much fun because I more or less felt the same as other characters around me [...] This makes Reach immediately fun unlike so many titles nowadays that are definitely still fun, but it takes hours and hours of grinding optimizations to GET to that fun. Even when I was getting gagglef*cked by half the enemy team I was still having fun. They didn't kill me by abusing the latest gimmick everyone's running to gain an unfair edge, they killed me because they were better than me and I ain't even mad." Sure, this is all about First-person shooters and that's a whole different matter than MMO's, but I think this statement can be well reflected here with WoW's PvP issue. It should be purely about skill and not about grinding gear that makes you stronger than ungeared players. Removing gear (or more accurately, making it irrelevant) and replacing it with a stat distribution system à la Lost Ark like you mention would nullify every single other problem I have with PvP without having to touch much else to balance it out. This is also why Plunderstorm was fun. While I never won a single game, everyone could gather the same perks, get the same abilities and by the end of the day, it was more skill-based than being a question of optimized gearing. Which is exactly why I grinded the hell out of it for its cosmetic rewards.

[@nenwar3454]

I don't have the time, will, or desire to do pvp, in wow or anything else

[@shieldsftw]

PvP isn't for everyone, its ok not to like it. I still hope we can make more people enjoy it and try it out!

[@nenwar3454]

@@shieldsftw and see that's my thoughts on it, I'm not super into it, but those folks who are, you know, have at it,

[@BREAKocean]

PVP in retail is dying? Can't imagine how it's dying with the kind community that engages in it

[@Dhalin]

From a "Refuse to do PvP" person: 1). Loss of control. Stunstunstun Fearfearfearfear is not fun gameplay. Every time you get near an enemy... SKRIT you're stunned and getting beat on. Break out of that, whoom, you get feared. Then you die. You didn't even get to do anything. Heck, to be honest, I wish they would remove stuns and fears from PvE too. Loss of control *IS NOT FUN, EVER.* 2). Everybody hops around each other like children on pogosticks trying to break each other's LoS. IMO, in PvP, the LoS cone needs to be doubled, maybe tripled in size. 270 degrees, minimum. 3). Latency. Combined with #2 half of the time you attempt to use an ability and you get "target must be in front of you" even if it was in front of you, because it was in front of you a millisecond ago and now it's not. 4). HUMONGOUS power discrepancy. I remember when I was trying to get the violet protodrake that insisted on PvP objectives. Tried to do a CTF battleground. Saw a warrior who had 3x my health grab the flag. Wailed on said warrior for 30 seconds+ didn't even do 10% of his health in damage. He finally got tired of it and killed me in 2 seconds flat. 5). Toxic Community: PvP people are some of the most toxic people in the community. They're worse than Mythic Raiders when it comes to chest-thumping, boasting, and bragging and looking down their nose at "filthy casuals" and "scrubs". They act like you ain't playing WoW unless you're a (insert ridiculous number here) rated player. If you're not in PvP and you don't have a rating worth talking about, then you're trash and don't belong in the game. Said people can go screw themselves as far as I'm concerned.

[@BaronVonPwn]

definitely pile on the rewards to healers. Make them amazing. Let the unga bunga dps be mad about it. infact, give them a majestic flying mount that has live post from the forums of dps complaining about it.

[@shieldsftw]

LMAO, good one bro!

[@katmannsson]

my answers: I dont Like Arena I will never like Arena Defensives are too strong because Damage output is crazy Most of the BGs are not only not good they are very bad Neverminding that people already take WoW too seriously in PvE, I've played PvP Games and Game Modes, I know how Sweaty people get I dont need that in my life especially when getting someone who is probably drooling on their keyboard through this content in your party is always statistically probable.

[@VVinsanitYY]

PvE is way more toxic and sweaty in my experience

[@HootsDefiasBrotherhood]

@@VVinsanitYY this couldn’t be more true I’ve done many keys this season in the 13-15 range, I’ve been in Mythic raiding guilds where people talk so much shit behind each others back, yet when I play arena with my buddies it’s just the 3 of us vibing

[@Nexiusify]

My issues in most versions is toxic sweats, who harass the group for doing poorly in an unrated BG, and in some versions such as vanilla people get harassed for getting too much honor.

[@shieldsftw]

Yeah, unfortunately those people will exist always. We just have to try to ignore them or try to weigh it out by being more positive/ and encouraging to our teammates.

[@Davidhenry1210]

@@shieldsftw Yes but this is mainly BGs where skill doesn't matter as much. I wouldn't take anyone in them seriously.

[@user36003]

And? Same happens in raids and any pve + you get a kick in pve so that concludes ?? To never do any group content in game 😂😂

[@desisbled]

What i also love is the people who leave the game and insult after 5 min and says Things like its löst. And then we win later always love it. But thats Just a negative Nancy Attitude that happens also in League of Legends a lot 😂

[@Knappen]

When it comes to solo shuffle, I think the fix for it would not be to give healers more rewards or whatnot, but instead change the whole concept, make 2 seperate ques, 2v2, and 3v3. And instead of having the teams shuffle and play 6 rounds, have it be like a regular arena match but it's completely solo que, that would at least make me play more pvp. I know I might be alone with this thought but there it is anyway.

[@shieldsftw]

Both are ideas I agree with. Adding a 2v2 solo que for DPS only would balance out the healer shortage a bit and give DPS players something to do while quing for 3's. Also I think most people don't enjoy 2's with healers. And yeah I woul'd also perfer solo shuffle to just be one round, even if sometimes the teams have uneven comps.

[@crimson_siphyr]

I dont even like wow that much or watch content about it at all, but i wanted to say i heavily appreciate the very down to earth and pragmatic nature of all you talk about and i want to sub to you because of it

[@shieldsftw]

Thanks! Thats nice to hear!

[@Apocalypse0505hun]

As someone who played PvP for years then stopped around Legion, my reason is simple. They reworked how CCs work, they gave everyone a lot of CC, while removing them from specs and classes which really relied on them. Also the meta shifted towards from tactical play to braindead bursts. Like nowdays every single spec has some insane burst window, which sometimes doesnt really have a counterplay other than popping all your defensives and sometimes not even that is enough and even if you survive you have to kill the enemy withing the "time limit" before their CDs come back up. Like its ridicolous how fast certain specs can delete someone, especially if that someone is not with a tanky spec.

[@paulomartins1813]

Yeah causei cata pvp for exemple it's different, you would never get killed in 2 globals om cata pvp... Oh except you do. some people will give any excuse to hate on current state of the game. You get deleted faster on cata PvP than you get on retail

[@Apocalypse0505hun]

@@paulomartins1813 Never happened with me, but statistics say the same... less and less ppl. are into pvp on retail. Mostly only the hardcore pvpers are remaining and the other little part is the casual pvpers and newbies trying to get into it then give up. Not even Blizz cares about pvp much anymore.

[@argentward1]

Premades. Premades are the largest contributing factor to people hating PVP that I encounter for years. because no one finds having a pre made group in a casual experience tryharding to be fun, the fact blizzard doesnt fucking block it is actually the dumbest thing.

[@shieldsftw]

Well actually they tried but didn't manage to do it properly and people just go around it (on retail) xd.

[@busterbrown3790]

Premades are the way to combat the toxicity of players. The toxic ones get kicked from the communities and have to play with themselves.

[@argentward1]

@busterbrown3790 if you genuinely believe that every single non toxic player is affiliated with guilds who have plenty of players who want to que up together for PVP you're out of touch with reality or play on a pvp realm. Or you're one of the people who rides Pre-Mades like a carnival ride.

[@itachiaurion3198]

The situation about PvP gear is rather strange. Blizzard already removed the PvP gear, then pvp players complained they needed to do PvE for gearing and everyone can jump into pvp and have the best gear if they had a strong PvE gear. So, blizzard finally hear their call and bring pvp gear back again, and the community rejoice. And then people "find out" again for a second time, the issue of pvp gear. It's a barrier of entries and you can't afford to be late acquiring or else you will be killed and killed and killed without having the tools to fight like the other. Maybe blizzard will kill the pvp gear again for people asking again to bring it back and find out once more that pvp gear is a rather complicated topic. Even I find that pvp gear is not such a ludicrous idea that it needs to be killed, however something must be done to help people avoiding the very lows pvp gear bring upon people. Maybe having a matchmaking that take into consideration the pvp gear you have and as such adjust the matchmaking. Or maybe put a buff in place in non-ranked match so people with no gear have a chance to fight back, the buff scaling around your pvp gear. On another topic, one of my highlights of playing WoW classic Wotlk was the weekly alterac week who let me grind from around 60 to 80 a shaman. I'm like some PvP but not much so I feared that I will bore out before the end of the grind. However, the points reward helping me to buy 70 pvp gear and more importantly 80 pvp gear as well as mount and other reward was really appealing. It's a rather old system but I really liked the reward for that and even if it was just pvp gear, the 80 pvp gear is better than any green/blue gear you can find before that so you end with a big boost in your pve performance which is enjoyable. Also, the gear appearance was miles better than the random mishmash of stuff found on the quest ground and random loot which helped with my enjoyment. It’s a very niche case but such incentive to bring pve crowd into pvp could help to make them enjoy pvp and entice them to play more pvp in their lvling wich could translate into more pvp at max lvl for them. In the end I'm fairly convinced that if pvp gear is killed one again the pvp crowd, or at least a bunch of the vocal one will make known to blizzard that they want pvp gear and blizzard will be pressured to find something for them. Great video keep the good work.

[@shieldsftw]

Thanks man! Many people have mentioned that PvP players want PvP gear because they don't want to farm PvE gear. And I get that, I wouldn't want that either. FOrcing people to do content that they don't want to do is never a good choice. I don't want gear to have any difference on PvP, whether its PvE gear or PvP gear. This can be done by just letting players choose their stats for PvP combat that are applied as soon as you enter PvP. Or just give PvP gear free from a vendor so that nobody ahs to grind for it but can just buy the PvP gear they want and start playing.

[@MatthewTheWanderer]

I've been playing WoW since 2005 and I have ALWAYS hated PvP. Mostly because I hate losing so much. I suck at PvP because I have slow reflexes and can't handle how fast PvP usually is. I also don't like dungeons or raids. I prefer soloing everything.

[@assaultthemeta]

I left WoW PvP years ago and I had a saying that WoW does not have a PvP, it has a PvD (Player versus Dummy) because with careful enough memorized cc rotation you could turn enemies into dummies. I believe, healthy PvP needs constant sequences of action/reaction until a winner is declared. if most of the PvP action we get either consist of me being locked more time than I can play, or my opponent being locked more time than they can play, or even worse sometimes one player dies before one cc rotation is done. Sorry but, that's not a PvP.

[@Kolepto]

Your video is trending. Why you may ask? Well, it's because WoW pvp is against new players. That is BAD for the life of the game. I realize people understand the nuances and complexities of "modern pvp" but that doesn't create better content. It just means you're one of the 10% of the playerbase that comprehends the systems in place. It's not consumer friendly. It's not noob-friendly. It's not good for the lifespan of the game has a whole. It needs a revamp. Arena gladiators will die on a hill with less than 1000 people on it. And that means an entire section of the playerbase is shrinking. Rant over lol. I just want the game to be accessible and hard to master.

[@tigerfist1126]

In Gw2 , everyone had the same gear , but that didn't want me to play pvp . There was no gear to grind for , so there was no point to play pvp .I don't play or do anything for nothing . The main goal for me is to have better gear . If there is no gold at the end of the rainbow . I won't join any pvp . Someone who does dungeon and raids won't do them if there is no gear involved . Same with me when it comes to pvp . No gear . No pvp .

[@Jebewee]

Idk about gw but i dont think people play wow pvp to get gear. Pve is there for the gear grind. People play pvp for higher rank. Same way as you dont play overwatch or league for gear you play for rank.

[@ALC0LITE]

That's all of GW2 though, not just PvP. If you don't like not having a gear treadmill, GW2 isn't for you

[@MrLisso98]

This is Flawed because people push high stones with no real ilevel reward after a threshold. In the past people went above +15 Mythic, just because of the chllange same with pvp sometines people do it because they just like it

[@Madsciencegg]

I played an insane amount of gw2 pvp because it was fun! Mesmer was a blast

[@jeje4131]

Resillance need to come back. Also to me the cc has gotten insane. PvP is a cc fest is horrible.

[@RhadaGhast100]

I think it's a mix of a few things. I think it's a mix of really high damage numbers compared to our healthbar and micro CC. High damage numbers is a problem because the higher damage you do, the more you can do in a single stun and Micro CC paired with regular CC just makes it really difficult to actually play the game.

[@blackwomangamer2637]

Well thats all wow pvp is tracking cd's

[@jeje4131]

@@RhadaGhast100 is not that easy. Some classes can pin you down for eternity, there are also cloth classes that in Melle are tankier than plate classes. Wow PvP need serious rework.

[@yeetskeet1095]

Removing pvp gear is horrible they done it before, and it was a mistake. Get rid of upgrading gear all together and simplify gear. Make crafted gear the equivalent of lfr honor to normal warmode to heroic and arena to mythic.

[@Slowrollin592]

From 19 subs to 181. Mine included. Fantastic video brother. Time for your channel to blow up. Good luck man.

[@shieldsftw]

Thanks man!!!

[@Dr.Longest]

Removing gear while simultaneously adding a TON of earnable rewards would really add new life to casual PvP.

[@86Corvus]

Slowing it down to allow counterplay, adding cast timer pushing and interrupts back into the game instead of everything beimg an instand cast and making melee work to get on top of target would make movement a skill again.

[@Jebewee]

Great ideas!

[@TooHighDPI]

for me, Open-world PvP in WoW is a lot more appealing and fun than just queuing up for it. I can't really put my finger on why, it just is.. Even then though, i don't often do it unless there is someone flagged disrupting the flow for other players, or attacking the main cities

[@Ghostly-00]

I know what you mean!

[@l_Nightbot_l]

Thing is content creators and streamers are arena slaves, the only pvp they care about is 3v3 and unfortunately they are the only ones that Blizzards care about. This is an mmorpg we should have more world content, faction wars, invasions to main cities ETC. If they do that and reward people accordingly with conquest and gear, people will participate.

[@mang232]

I attempted to “learn” pvp in s3 df because of the elite set for dks. I eventually managed to get 2k rating but I can’t say I had fun doing so. There’s just so much to learn about every class you go up against, it’s not like m+ or raiding wherein you can pretty much just start playing, you have to watch several guides on how to play, focus targets, trinket cc, kite, burst timers, meta, dealing with mobility (dh) etc. Doing 25+ keys in m+ requires you to watch a 5 min video on the best rotation for your class and a 5 min video on how to clear the dungeon. In PVP you can watch how many videos you want (especially when queues are 30+ min) and still not understand everything that is happening in an arena match.

[@user-fv7jd4xj5n]

pvp should have the lost ark style entry requirements. Where you dont gotta be max level. You can simply queue and people will be balanced around max level and gear.

[@FuzzyDreamin]

I used to pvp a lot but dropped off more and more as they added a bunch of mechanics to battlegrounds that didn't really have much to do with killing your opponents - basically; inserting too much pve into pvp. I liked capturing bases and flags, but adding so much more than that ruined it for me, so I turned to raiding instead. If I was going to be forced to pve either way I may as well do it right and have fun.

[@killat5469]

stay away from the vodo

[@shieldsftw]

Wise man!

[@normaleverydaywhiteguy]

I dont pvp anymore to keep my blood pressure down

[@86Corvus]

It only spikes whe you loose unfairly

[@chaos1993]

For me, emulating the Plunderstorm system would work well-- both in rewards for participation as you mentioned, not requiring gear, reducing the number of buttons, making the effort-distance between each rank equal, having a variety of interesting and frequent rewards. PVP currently has no worthwhile rewards; I don't care about horses, I can't get high rank due to lack of time & skill. My experience with PVP is generally I walk in, get CC'd and die, learn nothing, gain nothing, and leave. I also was horrible at Plunderstorm, BUT that's okay, because I still got rewarded for trying; so I slowly got a bit better, surviving longer, getting more points, and getting rewards faster due to surviving. PVP is so beginner-unfriendly that there's no real way to learn imo, as you die too quickly to catch on to anything; which just compounds the issue of only hardcore PVPers remaining, making PVP less appealing for casuals, rinse repeat.

[@shieldsftw]

Yeah, learning PvP can definitely be a tough experience at start since its hard to figure out whats going on when you die so fast.

[@125karka]

Hey mate! Great video! I like arenas and pvp so naturaly I try to bring my friends in to WoW, alot of them play games like lol, cs, dota etc. They are open to try WoW and PVP, but they dont want /or dont have time for lvling to the max lvl just to try WoW PvP. So my sugestion is very simple. I agree with the system from Lost Ark with choosing your secondary stats (In PVP you have same ilvl=scaled main stat) and talents - this will be unlocked when you can choose your spec at lvl10 and now you can play PVP - que for soloQ, Blitz, BG, arenas with friend crossfaction with max LVL(=more ppl to play - no twinks BGs etc). When you have system like this in theory there is no barrier entry for new players - only skill issue (like and every PVP game, BUT! hopefuely ranks will be more evenly spread with bigger player base). With system like this there you can also have WoW PvP f2p, bcs atm you can play wow until lvl 20 to play without bying actual xpac or sub. If blizzard wants to have some esport from PVP this is only way to bring more ppl to play PVP I think. Ofc there is needed to rework MMR system/rank system and make dmg rotation simplier. I really enjoy WoW PvP and i think there is not better pvp game like WoW arenas, but the main problem is the entry for new ppl and also the rewards must be somehow more tied to ranks (atleast some cool recolors of PvP sets for each ranks). I rly believe that rework like this can boost WoW PvP playerbase. Just join and play.

[@shieldsftw]

Thanks mate! I've tried to convince some of my friends to play WoW PvP too and I ran into same kind of problems. Making the barrier to entry for PvP as low as possible without any major negative effects would do wonders for the PvP playerbase.

[@125karka]

@@shieldsftw for sure! Bcs when I am around 2k+ CR in soloQ, then it is almost imposible to play (30+ minutes que..) arena without friends... I am fresh dad so I have little to no time to play. I can play around 1 or 2 hours per day at max. We neeeeed more ppl in WoW Pvp! :D

[@WakeNShake-h7c]

as somone who has allways been a pvEer mainly i started doing some pvp in dragonflight my biggest issue with cc itself was the fact that there where so many "rules" attached to cc it was like going to school all over again there is different "schools of cc" some spells that seemingly do the exact same thing can fall under different classes and vice versa overlaping these will cause diminishing returns and NONE of this information is avaiable in game or even mentioned. the part about the unfairness of random pvp sadly we play an mmo it will happen and the more restrictions you'll put in place the more you'll restrict the "fair" players malicious people are allways 1 step ahead the worst part about starting off is by the time you will learn how to adapt to situations youll be picked as a main target hundreds of times because let's be real if you see somone keyboard turn you know they havent played an mmo before if you see somone pop all cc on a nulified evo you know they havent played an arena before the majority of the community sadly isnt patience enough to help you through your intial struggles (which they 100% certainly once had too) and will just continue to tell you to uninstall the game. getting into pvp really is an investment it's rough at first and you'll most likely hate alot of it but once you see that rank slowly but steadily going up you can tell yourself imagine i got X ranking better in only X time to all the newcomers welcome to pvp enjoy your stay prepare to become better at the game fast to all the veterans please be kind to the newcomers you might show be showing the new venruki the ropes ;)

[@shieldsftw]

Well said!

[@Shikaschima]

Lemme put it this way: I play Mage. Frost Mage. A class that is supposedly amazing for PvP. Priests: outdamage me, can silence me for 4 seconds, can Dispel my only way to drop their DoTs, can deal damage even when I break LoS cause of said DoTs. Warlocks: Deal massive damage, again DoTs galore, have hard CC that doesn't heal my, so they can just slam me with a hardhitting spell without counterplay. Hunters: Outdamage pretty much any class, mobile WHILE casting abilities. Rogues: You are dead. If you Ice Block, you are dead 5 seconds in delay. Paladins: Haha, Divine Shield and Stead go Brrr! Kiting? What's that? Deathknights: Passive that makes Slows LITERALLY useless, deathgrip, hard cc, Anti Magic Shield and Zone Monks: Massive burst, movement that is too much even with the slows Shaman: Hard CC for 5 seconds while you die, unable to be slowed or Poly'd in Spirit form. Druid: Out of stealth death machine, immune to polymorph, drops frostnova and similar simply by changing to bearform for a second. Demonhunter: Demonhunter. PvP is just not fun because the majority of classes that are played have something to fuck you over. There's no good training guide that teach you how to deal with these issues specifically as your class, Arena and BGs are entirely different topics, World PvP is uselessly broken. Would I be willed to LEARN how to deal with this bullshit, yes. But I am not willed to comb through pages and pages of forum posts, reddit forums, videos, amd guides just to have a tiny bit more knowledge on how to deal with pretty much any of the classes when wanting to play my own. Am I a great mage player? Not anymore, but it's not because I didn't try to be for PvP.

[@simontrustrameve4965]

Loved the video, was a great breakdown for someone who only does PvE in wow currently. As someone who is approaching this from a PvE perspective; what would be your views on doing a "PvP Bar" that has a limited amount of abilities? Similar to your great suggestion for PvP stats, players can choose say 7-8 abilities and those are the only ones they can bring into a PvP fight? This would cut down significantly on the learning curve and accessibility for newer players. It would cut down on the amount of CC, or at least make the player using multiple CC abilities to have less damaging/sustain abilities.

[@shieldsftw]

Thanks man! I mean maybe that could work, but I do think the "PvP bar" should have more spells than that. But with some tweaks and improvements maybe something like that could work.

[@GuiltyKit]

The older I get, the less a game mode where only one side gets to have fun is appealing to me anymore. And before anyone says oh I love the challenge, win or lose! I'm not going to call you a liar, but I will say that I've never met anyone in all the years of pvp in any game who had a good time after they lost a match in anything. I get more than enough competition at work. The idea of doing that in my spare time just gets increasingly gross.

[@Mrmemphisbones]

Hey ! What is the name of the 2H sword you matched with the Paladin Elite set on your RET ? Great video btw !

[@shieldsftw]

Thanks man! The sword is called "Bar-Fusan's Hackblade" its from shadowlands follower mission table.

[@chandlersun3877]

Only thing i don't like about pvp ia the gearing prio is completely different for most specs for their pve prio..... Getting a whole set to stack vers just for pvp is a lot of work

[@Bathion]

8:25 One of the major issues between PvE and PvP is highlighted and it's far more systemic then PvP players want to accept. Blizzard made a mode where you can casually play PvP with at most 50% friends and PvP players are NOT RESPECTING the rules of the mode. PvE players like our rules and the spirit of the fight. PvP players making two groups sitting in Discord and only accepting after they bypass the rules of the mode is Exactly the same energy when in Fighting games the Developer makes a Beginner, Intermediate, and Master Queue and 90% of the community signs up for "Beginner" regardless of skill. PVe players DO NOT WANT to get bodied over and over because our opponents do not want to respect the rules. Until this exceedingly toxic trait is monitored by both individual PvP'ers AND the community. PvP'ers will need to accept their actions, which made it so that others cannot easily enter and enjoy the format, will stagnate. Aka its a very long form of FAFO. Made the bed, lie in it.

[@BeachLookingGuy]

too much relies on gear. I want to get on and just PVP but i can’t. I have to play PVE for weeks earning gear just to be slightly on level with the sweaty group.

[@silverhowl9331]

great points honestly, I never do PVP and I don't know if I will even with these changes cuz I'm pretty socially awkward, but these will do wonders for beginners and pros alike!

[@crimsondragon1794]

for me it's two things. 1. Learning Curve. PvE and PvP requires an entirely different skill set. 2. Toxic behavoirs in PvP. Spawn camping, and targetting new players for easy honor.

[@tajborberry]

There are some amazing ideas in this video like the battlepass and the visual complexity is just crazy scuffed, but I believe PvP gets some love on this front in TWW. I don't agree mainly with your final point. Those cases are rare in my opinion and I like this dynamic of solo shuffle that if you know who is the "weak player" you have to be ready to help out. I understand that sometimes it seems impossible, but in the couple times you succeed are very satisfying. However healers deserve all the love and extra rewards if that is what they need! I am new to WoW (started in DF) and new to PvP (exactly 2 weeks of experience Honor level 13 and just 1972 rating in solo shuffle), so my opinion might not reflect the masses! :)

[@shieldsftw]

Thats a really good rating for your experience, good job man. Keep it up!

[@Nick-4K]

I like PVP... but as a Pally, when I catch a Mage. Like a mage that can't keep their distance, that should be lights out. But it's not, cloth boys out here tanking. Haha

[@XalenPrime]

Nothing could make me want to do PvP. I play only pve or co-op games. IRL is 100% PvP, and it’s a horrible world. I play games to get away from that and have fun. PvP has some of the best looking gear and mounts, and sometimes is a great way to gear up. I’m sad not to have a chance at ever obtaining those things, but would far rather miss out on them rather then to force myself to play PvP.

[@SQLdb]

Most of my friends who do not pvp agree on the same point. "pvp is too complicated. We do not know what is going on"

[@perplexedcats7687]

Love the MadSeason inspiration in this video! You'll find success quite quickly if you keep this up. I'm curious as to whether you'll cover other games or stick to WoW, and if you stick to WoW, if it will be strictly retail or not.

[@shieldsftw]

Thanks! I don't know if I want to commit into any single game or version. I think at the moment my focus will be on World of Warcraft and I mostly play retail at the moment, but I think I will cover topics that fit both retail and classic depending on the topic. With this said I also play alot of other games and depending on how I feel so covering a wider area of gaming might happen at some point. At the moment though I think WoW is where my focus will be in the near future.