I Asked WoW PvErs Why They Don't Like PvP | Venruki Reacts

Original video: • I Asked WoW PvErs Why ...
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[@shieldsftw]

No way the legend himself is reacting to my video! Pog

[@Koldstare_wow]

Your video brought up a lot of good points. I used to love leveling through BGs but that was ruined from premades / level synced max level characters.

[@Altarknight]

I wouldn't call him legend 😅

[@Venruki]

Was a great video!

[@viberaider6852]

​@@Altarknightbut now that legend is an earnable title, I'm sure Ven has achieved it atleast once if not 4 times 😎

[@reactionjunkie7891]

@@Altarknight cool thanks for sharing.

[@SonGoku5363]

the solo shuffle queue finally popping, then someone declining and then back into another 20 min queue is the most real part of the video

[@iVibeBruh]

Lmfao

[@frmtheden]

bro foreal.

[@Pichu11000]

They need to start penalizing people who decline to join as hard as if they had left a game, even banning people who do it often, it's making the game unplayable. i resubbed a couple weeks ago playing very casual pvp and trying the soloq bg and it is infuriating, there's been times where i accept 8 consecutive times and someone declines so i just ragequit the game, and there are others where someone declines and then it just doesn't pop anymore for 20 minutes until i just get bored and quit the game.

[@SonGoku5363]

@@Pichu11000 the queues are too long, most people take a piss and miss the queue after waiting an hour lol

[@Pichu11000]

@@SonGoku5363 i get that for solo shuffle arena but the solo shuffle bg (i can't remember its actual name) queue is most of the time less than 10 minutes, if people can't pay atention for that amount of time then it's on them, and they are disrespecting other people's time so they should get penalized by not being alowed to queue again for at least an hour.

[@EMdragonKnight]

Barrier to entry is high. Most new players have to dig thru a lot of "unsub", "uninstall", "go kill yourself" feedback till they learn to play.

[@cd2194]

every game will have toxicity, and the spell barrier to entry is kinda fake, you do not need to know all abilities to play the game

[@TheRobochicken5494]

yeah but thats just every multiplayer pvp game

[@EMdragonKnight]

@@TheRobochicken5494 So the same issue exists for every multi-player pvp game.

[@nickfarace9339]

It is interesting because there is two aspects to barrier to entry. Actually getting a character ready to play PVP? Lower than its ever been. Actually finding players to play with? It has never been worse. Shuffle took people from LFR (for good reason) and shuffle has long queues. LFR is now a dumpsterfire and it was literally the worst thing about PVP before shuffle. It is basically almost impossible to find someone to play with if you don't have a completely open schedule.

[@milkco6607]

“EvERy GaMe WIth Pvp is lIKe tHAT.” Yeah. No shit. it still sucks and it’s still not fun to be around, yet it answers the question unlike these simple remarks.

[@motiveation1]

Blizzard should implement a ui that tells you the abilities your opponent used last 5-10 seconds before the death happened so the player can learn.

[@zero4915]

Wow kill cam

[@vorkanyx2172]

@@zero4915 Imagine seeing the UI and inputs of the guy who killed you, sound awesome!

[@zacharybryant3865]

This does exist in the worst way possible: combat log (i know it isn't like... the most informational but... yeah...). With that stupid statement I just made out of the way: yes I agree a UI would be nice on death.

[@Chakafuyo21]

But you've got both the "dead log" menu whenever you die and Details! Addon to check it🤔

[@theodenrex5769]

I used to play with a friend around 2.2k we never pushed glad because we didn't have a third, so we convinced a friend from college and tought him everything we knew. 1k to 1400 was easy, but from 1400 to 1600 was a pain in the ass, just because of addons, had to teach him how to use them and read the information, he managed to up his dps but got hardstuck at 1700, so we decided push to 1800 to get him the elite set, we did it and all of us unsuscribed, I was healing btw

[@MrVoltron23]

agree im in a similar boat. Its hard to carry someone who doesnt have full blown knowledge of every class past 1800 ish even with 2.2+ xp

[@IchWillDie]

Sounds very familiar

[@fogismaximus]

The comment about Bajheera😂. That's most of his vids, one shooting people in greens while being trailed by 2-4 healers. It looks bad ass for sure

[@hotchowder]

Yeah, I got bored of watching his merry band of healers keeping him topped off as he stomps on randos.

[@Paul-Sapp]

I’m outside in my phone and dam near jumped out my chair when his solo shuffle popped. Lmao that sound had me about to run inside… my computer isn’t even on 😆

[@Diconius]

I think the reason retail CC feels so terrible is because it's the whiplash feeling of having your abilities/control taken from you so often. Like in 2 scenarios, if in 20 seconds you sat 10 seconds of CC... Option A. You sit a poly then a fear or something then had 10 seconds of uptime vs. Option B. You use one ability, eat a 2 second stun, another ability, eat a 1.5 second disorient, use another ability and eat a 3 second sleep, then a 1 second knockdown, then a 2.5 second stun. I'd choose Option A every goddamn time. In option B, You may have only been CCed for 10 seconds, but your entire gameplay was hard disrupted for for the full 20 seconds. That's the world we live in right now, and honestly it's just frustrating when there's almost zero downside to just mashing micro CCs as if they're part of a damage rotation.

[@jingliestpockets]

I used to PVP a ton and got Gladiator back in BC. After a long break from the game, I haven't ever been able to get back into it for very long for a few reasons: 1. Gearing up in PVP requires you to to be good enough to consistently beat people who outgear you. 2. Relearning what every class and comp is now capable of and how to counter it is an incredibly steep learning curve when you have to do it all at once. 3. I've regressed personally -- Even when I have the right plan, executing it isn't instinctive anymore. Relearning PVP to overcome 2 and 3 could be fun if 1 weren't such a huge barrier. Granted, I haven't done an arena since maybe S2 in Shadowlands, so maybe the gearing situation has improved. I haven't bothered finding out.

[@NgRiBo]

Gearing right now is massively improved, no longer tied to rating, so a more even playing field. However other points I do agree with.

[@quickschweezy]

PVP is no where the same, indeed. When you got gladiator using focus frames, holding kicks, dispelling combust were very high level games and very hightech. Nowadays those things are complete baseline things you do as your first steps. Mind you, you cant dispell combust anymore. But Your point 2 and 3 comes with just playing. Just lose your first 10 matches (like it seems youre already doing) and you will be at a level with other people that struggle like you. Then you just slowly build it up. PVP is amazing because you get to instantly improve. Nobody expects you to know everything, and nobody expects you to be even 1800. You can easily find other people that want to just queue with you at your skilllevel. Its not like pvp where people leave 5 min into your key and then its bricked because the tank said other people cant pull. - The point is; just keep queueing. Chase the wins. Its very rewarding and watching a youtube video here and there when youre taking a shit motivates you a lot to go queue again with the new knowledge

[@Pichu11000]

@@NgRiBo you still need to win to get conquest, i play on and off and every time i come back to the game mid season gearing is a nightmare because i'm in full greens fighting with people in full conquest, which means my winrate is garbage, and since i'm not winning much i'm not getting conquest either, which means i'm not closing the ilvl gap.

[@jingliestpockets]

@@quickschweezy I know what it would take to get good again. It's just more work and more frustration than I'm willing to invest at this point in my life. Especially since my experience pushing keys is wildly more positive than yours. That said, the fact that gearing up is a better experience than it was the last time I gave it a shot could make the difference. The combination of learning curve + gear disparity is what really made it feel pointless.

[@nldev666]

hm i started from a similar position and found that gearing was really fast. within 2 weeks of hitting 70 im only 5 ilevel below the top solo shuffle player right now and have 2 piece set bonus as disc priest. maybe it's just because i started at the end of dragonflight, but leveling->gearing for pvp right now feels like an instant max private server. i don't really mind relearning everything since the high degree of complexity is what draws me to the game anyway (and regardless of how complex the game is the matchmaking system is always trying to make me win and lose equally as often). i'm just shocked to see people still backpedaling and never pressing dispel

[@writhes7170]

The competitive nature has become overwhelming for people. Tell me if I'm wrong. You need to know which cooldowns you have ready at all times, track your enemies cooldowns, buffs, casts and interrupt timers and set up a proper UI to help you do this. Develop an awareness for your own and other players positioning which is something that also takes time and practice. Always be ready for counter play when the enemy uses big cooldowns to make a move. Make sure you know when to make a move. Know how to perform at max output with your own class. You need to develop a sense of intuition to read your opponents (which is another long term skill learned over time) by actively paying attention and watching how people play which could all change as you move up in ranks. You can either A: go in naked without knowing anything and potentially develop lots of bad habits and painstakingly correct them over time or B: Research and develop a baseline understanding of the various things you need to learn and practice out of the gate but trying learning everything or even knowing how much you need to learn can be overwhelming.

[@nldev666]

you don't reeeaaally need to learn how to do any of those things since the matchmaking system is always trying to make you win at least 50% of your games regardless of how bad you are. i agree though it's overwhelming in the amount of things you'll need to learn to improve, but i think having a ridiculous amount of buttons to press and things to learn is part of the draw of WoW over other RPG-style competitive games out there. every game out there tries to be 'simple but deep', but only WoW satisfies those looking for 'complex and deep'.

[@Qyzme]

After 18 years I still can’t remember which CC Spells are on the same dr. For me, they could make it like - once you’ve been ccd 3 times, you’re immune to cc for 30 sec. All spells on one dr!

[@RedRagedRooster]

As a Resto shaman, id like to have about half the amount of spells. The REAL bloat is multipliers.

[@andrewshandle]

Shaman is really bad to be fair, I hope the rework next week cuts the bloat

[@therockontheshelf]

Shaman in general is really bad for that across all specs tbh, a lot of clunky systems where you use multiple GCDs to buff one ability

[@IchWillDie]

Lek my shaman says the same thing

[@OldboyGamez]

DPS = 4 dmg spells, 1 buff spell, 2 cc spells/1 slow 1 lose of control, 1 dmg mitigation spell, 1 utility spell, no self heal spell Healer = 2 dmg spells, 1 buff spell, 2 cc spells/ 1 slow 1 lose of control, 2 dmg mitigation sells, 1 utility spell, 4 heal spells (hots, big heal, efficient heal, instant heal, shield) depending on heal class naturally - druid, pres evo would have more hot spell than casted spells, and paladin reverse, for example remove all combat addons from game

[@86400SecondsToLive]

How about you play the game first before you give out your armchair dev take.

[@waynealan3067]

My ex wife hates PvP. Shes a keyboard turning spell clicker who waves her hands over the keyboard when attacked. If you ask her why she doesn’t PvP she’d say “I don’t know I just don’t like it.” Obviously the keyboard turning was part of the grounds for divorces

[@Orisha1990]

I had like 40 keybinds+ at the beginning of Dragonflight expansion as an Arcane mage, and I didn't even have arena123 crap set up. I was absolutely using all that shit and doing well but it wore me out, and after a while it stopped being fun seemed like I was playing the piano to get the same results as other specs could playing the recorder. Needless to say I quit the game 4 months in. In part for that, and in part because of the insane solo shuffle Q times and the PIA it was to find arena partners to play with consistently.

[@spacejamzyt6461]

Healing is just not fun, unavoidable CC chains, constantly getting kicked, ramping dampening, going 3/6 in the solo shuffles and getting no points. Like every negative part of Arena is focused on making healers have less fun. Imagine if you were a dps and all the CC went into you, every kick went into you, and you started doing less damage as the match went on. To top it all off when you make a mistake your solo shuffle team rages at you and tells you that you're the worst healer they have ever seen.

[@TheOaxOaxOax]

naa healing is fun, but you right..unavoidable cc chains are fuckin annoying. Everything is instant with 150y range. Micro CCs. dpamening is also annyoing..but shuffles would last forever without dampening.

[@spacejamzyt6461]

@@TheOaxOaxOax I think solo shuffle is absolutely trash. I would never have implemented this system the way it is. It's so unbelievably toxic it should just be removed.

[@TheOaxOaxOax]

@@spacejamzyt6461 i think point of solo shuffle is good..its people is what make it bad..like i love healing both pve and pvp..but in shuffle its new level of toxicity

[@Kerek77]

Every class having 2-3+ CCs/Micro CCs is a big problem. Arenas as a caster is very unenjoyable. You can get completely shut down, kicks don’t bother melee but all the CC in the game can affect a caster.

[@user36003]

Not every class has 2-3 + CCs or even micro CCs wai are you lying?

[@MFTomp09]

As a melee dps I have to say the inverse is also true. Going against casters is the worst experience ever. You ever try to stick on a frost mage as a melee? 17 blinks and slows and frost nova and knockbacks.. and that’s just from the mage. What am I supposed to do when you stand 40 yards away blasting me with slows and dmg? If I can’t get to you and stay on you for a bit, I’m never gonna win that fight. Running and hiding behind a pillar isn’t gonna win me the fight. I HAVE to use all the cc I have just to get a second or two two put the dmg on you and hope it sticks. Locks have fears and portals. Shadow priest has fear and can slow me.. hunters trap and disengage and aspect of the cheetah.. Point is, the cc is a necessary evil to combat all the abilities you casters have. If you wanna just cast one spell over and over while standing still, I’ll be glad to give up my cc to just charge in an smack you in the face with a hammer.

[@corvuscorax8459]

@@user36003 Every class has some form of CC in retail WoW buddy.

[@user36003]

@@corvuscorax8459 Buddy every class has some "Sort" of CC yeah but not 2-3+ and calling it micro CC is stupid look at shaman 1m CD on totem stun/lasso does that make you feel not wanting to pvp? just kick the lasso , i dont want to play Dps games like PVE but in PVP its a no brainer , classes like mage/druid have CD less CC just like rogue but far from all

[@Drualeaf]

This is exactly why casters go AFK in solo shuffle when they’re up against nothing but melee.

[@BeastMastery]

500 specs and 5000000000 abilities to learn and counter. 50min queues... Outgeared, outplayed, and meeting the meta, yippi kaiyay!

[@Liz-vm5ej]

Plunder storm was legit the most fun I had ( as a former pvp lover) Arena just is too frustrating, waiting 20 minutes for a queue drove me insane. needing to have an addon to scream wtf is going on sucks too. I was 2300 in wrath on chars, came back 10 years later and have not been able to break past 1700 before losing interest totally. IN plunderstorm i was able to learn all the abilities and figure out their synergies in a day or two. Arena play happens SO fucking fast i cant even see whats going on. UNless i have played the class... its too hard to track what people are doing. BGS are hit or miss, they are fun when teams are even and people dont give up immediately.

[@BT-vz4up]

Green and purple gear should scale to the same ilvl in instances. That's my opinion, I think its dumb that it doesn't.

[@izayak9767]

Whats the point of farming epic gear then

[@BT-vz4up]

@@izayak9767 World content

[@rivas623]

Before I even watch this video all the way through. I still think and always will think that WoW PvP has too high of a "perceived" barrier to entry for skill level compared to PvE content. you CAN be completely carried in PvE up until heroic and you dont actually need to get better, while you can be carried in PvP the actual good feeling you would get from lets say, killing a heroic end boss even if you got carried does not exist in PvP where even if you hit 2200 getting carried you did it getting to know the floor. Personal skill level is so much more important in PvP than it is below mythic raiding in PvE. as always, love your videos and viewpoints ven.

[@12fulworld69]

PvEers use a lot of spells already and keybind almost everything. Still rotational spells differ somewhat (you never use sheep in pve, but cast it more than 10 times in every arena match), but I think that is fine. For me, pvp talents are a bit too much - they can be 3 new spells to keybind that are all important and take up priority on your bars and yet when you go back to PvE they just go grey and are never used. As a PvP and PvE player my 4 keybind, G keybind, and X keybind are all grey in m+, meaning I have to have more keybinds overall since some rare times I play with them all on.

[@billflynn9962]

too many defensives for certain classes like mage/rogue.. too many micro cc/stuns.. too much self heal for dps (why are rogues/mages able to heal?) makes no sense.. too much addons required to play/track certain spells. and worst of all too many toxic/elitist players.... as far a choosing your stats on gear i think it should be like game-wide.... gear should have main stat/2nd stat instead of haste/verse for example. and the PLAYER chooses what their main/second stats are.. then they can switch specs and that new spec will have those main/second stats at the same levels so they dont have to farm more gear for different stats... play the class you want to play without having to farm new gear

[@light_has_come3575]

My friends and I are usually 1400 in 3v3 arena. Our biggest struggle is complexity and lack of visual cues. So often we lose and have no idea why. Eventually I realized it is usually because we don't notice when an enemy uses an offensive CD and we don't respond until we're 1/3 HP. It is hard for us to notice moves like adrenaline rush or berserk or kingsbane. So we focus on M+ where it's so much more obvious what killed us.

[@stoneblood9864]

it just takes time. download the addon bigdebuffs and it will make pvp alot easier and help u see what your opponent is doing.

[@Asmodeius]

this is why you need like 5 addons to play PVP. but that should not be a solution. i completely agree that there should be visual and sound queues for all DPS and defensive CDs, like i can clearly see ice block, but i can't see ice bound fortitude. i can clearly see paladin's wings, but i can't see warrior's recklessness or avatar, or rogues king's bane. you are completely correct.

[@MrVoltron23]

i know its annoying to get addons for this but Bigdebuffs is the big one here that shows what BIG cds the enemy is using right on their portrait. Makes it much easier to see

[@light_has_come3575]

@@Asmodeius You're speaking my language. If all the important stuff was as visual as iceblock/wings my friends and I would play hella pvp

[@rumham8979]

I agree there needs to be better visual cues. You have to install specific add-ons to give you this info now, mainly weakaura

[@selina0ellise]

I'm so happy you found Shields video! I watched this video a few days ago and subscribed to shields because he did such a great job and I had the thought that I hope Venruki sees the video and reacts to it. How cool for you to have found it. 😊

[@d.j.9739]

This video is gold!

[@Mhortai]

When people ask for CC to just be removed in PvP, I don't think they know how awful that would be. It's just the micro CC's and all the AoE passive stuff being designed around M+. There are also a lot of PvE'ers that just don't use defensives. They try to zug, and get frustrated when they can't. Premades can be largely fixed by removing cross faction. Cross faction messing up the sync queuing random groups you see largely in Epic BGs.

[@SupaFly-gx1zo]

The secondary stat allocation suggestion is how Guild Wars 2 does things, at least back when I played. You would socket gear with rune combinations to give yourself certain effects and stat boosts. Everyone had access to the same runes right from level 1, and the game scaled you up to max level so the playing field was even. It was a HUGE way to get me into GW2 PvP and I wouldn't have touched it if I had to grind out as much as veteran players to even start. I don't even like making alts for WoW because gearing is so annoying. I don't feel like I'm even playing my class until I've gotten like 5k Conquest on them and 20k gold worth of enchants. The entire progression path feels bad to experience, and that's a sign that it can safely be removed.

[@bycandlelight2957]

I played so much more GW2 pvp than WoW pvp for this reason. Was SO easy to make a class you've never played and get right into it, switch things around and try new ideas. Them having an arena right in the PVP lobby you could hop into at any time, the ability to buy private BG instances to run with your guild or friends, statues of notable pvp players... just having a separate SPACE for the community felt so nice. WoW could really do with trying that again.

[@evg3nius]

GW2 PVP design is miles and miles ahead of WoW. Too bad its lacking in other areas.

[@NoOne4k]

High barrier to entry is true if you consider that as a PvE player you gear for PvE first and that means you have to have 2 characters to not be behind in gearing and crafted pieces. THANKFULLY THATS FINALLY GONE IN THE NEXT XPAC

[@jessekappler4160]

As 2400 disc priest, the healer making the biggest impact is only at low rating. At higher ratings you don't tend to see this big of a skill gap, where healers are just losing rounds without using buttons. Usually if I lose lobby it's like 2-4 even when the other healer is way better than me. I only really 0 and 6 if the other healer is way better than me, and I'm playing in a lobby with a huge disadvantage such as 4 casters vs a resto shaman on a big map. Healers usually only 0 and 6 in low ratings because they don't know how to trade their CDs correctly and the other healer does. Or they have really bad trinket usage. I don't think healers make as big of an impact in higher rated games because they tend to last into dampening, and once you have enough dampening it's really hard to do anything but just barely keep your team alive. You are also the only role whose over all impact is directly reduced by the length of the game. Higher rated healers usually know the "script" of the game and trade their CD's well enough that even if their play isn't optimal, no one just falls over dead. Meaning the games come down to mana more often. Which you can argue mana management and healing efficiency is part of the skill, which I agree, but that's a lot easier on some healers than others. Like pres evoker feels like it literally doesn't use mana. I think DPS have a wayyyy bigger impact (depending on spec) at higher ratings. A boomkin popping incarn with full DR available on enemy team for example is literally GG with enough dampening. Unless your DPS do something to control the moonkin or LOS dam. This is all specific to solo shuffle btw. In 3's with more coordination and less dampening I think healers have a much bigger impact. Which also makes the game weird to balance, because 3's and solo shuffle are so different.

[@Asmodeius]

im 2100 resto sham and have other healers at 1800 for mog. mog collector if you want. but for that 2100 push i did. i have exactly the feeling you described. healers have have very little impact, every game goes into dampening where you lose if your enemy has traded CDs better than your team and have them up for phase when your heals dont do anything anymore. and at those late dampening games, general tendency is that the class with more shields and damage reductions wins.

[@jessekappler4160]

@@Asmodeius Yes exactly or the comp advantage. DPS definitely carry hard at these rating depending on their spec. Melees win through just massive dam/uptime. Rogues can win through godly setups. Mages can win with godly kiting/CC. As a healer you just get punished really hard for making aggressive plays that unless you are super far ahead already it doesn't feel worth it a lot of the time.

[@logannigro3310]

It’s not the amount of spells, it’s the complexity of each spell and how confusing it is to understand how they all coordinate with each other

[@avirian6589]

The button boat is an ISSUE 100%. I have friends that I do M+ with that I want to queue PVP with but they're so scared to play. One friend plays a Warlock and he said he needs like 10 extra keybinds to do PVP because you never use those skills in PVE. For me, I have an MMO mouse (which I think my friends do to, but idk) I would PREFER to only have like 20-24 keybinds. Just 1-12 (on mmo mouse) and maybe shift modifiers, so 24 total. But if I'm playing my resto shaman, I need like 36 keybinds, which is just insane to me. The "MRR issue" isn't really much of an issue. If you make MRR account wide, the low MRR queue's would take an hour to get into game. There are ZERO new players to WoW, and not many new PVP'ers from PVE. Healing I think is pretty incentivized as it is, and I RARELY see a 0/6 healer lobby. I've already given my hot take on a 2v2 SS mode with only dps, or have a PVP template where your class can have new healing spells in a 3v3 SS. But most WoW players just flame the idea and disregard any form of change lol. Lastly, the gearing is fine as it is. It's WAY EASIER to get PVP gear, than PVE gear, so I'm not sure why this argument even exists. Sure greens suck, but at zero rating you're playing against other greens. I REALLY hate Legion PVP gearing, zero progression, zero point in PVP'ing except to get elite and quit.

[@kostax966]

def true about healing , as a healer main, dps is just more fun to play in this kind of "shuffle" format .

[@Zetherior]

The LORE for battlegrounds was always in the spirit of fair play.. They are sport, for competitive evolution. Without war, everyone loses.

[@Bacon-egg-cheese]

Bloat: While there could be some button pruning I think the bigger issue is how many interactions are backed into individual buttons. I always use vengeful retreat (VR) as an example, VR by default is a repositioning button that launches you backwards, you can use this to get away and kite, or flip your camera and use it to lunge towards a target, its a good button for its default function.. but then talents come in and now this button also potentially... a damage reduction, a cc immunity, a slow, a crit buff, a fury generator, and a % damage modifier... all wrapped into a single button.. and some of those functions contradict each other. If I use the button as a cc immunity / defensive I may lose out on the resource generation, damage increase, or I might not have it to reposition later. The same thing happens with your Thistle tea example, I might not need the energy but I'm pressing the button for the mastery or vice versa. These things are not always in harmony... hence bloat is not just about the number of buttons but how many interactions are packed into a given button. CC: I find the communities focus on "micro cc" often specifically around melee odd when I tend to find that its mostly wizards who have an excessive amount of macro cc. The worst offenders are specs like demo or any rogue where they're stacked with spammable and or long duration short cd cc while also having a bunch of micro cc options. There could also be some pruning for specs like havoc where it could probably stand to lose fear and not be that impacted by it... but I really think things like cyclone or the massive amount of cc demo has need to be looked at more. Gear: While the lost ark system is imo ideal I don't think blizz will go that route because wow players like getting gear too much. They also don't want the pvp gear to be too easily customizable while also being able to have competitive pve ilvls because then pve players feel forced to do it. I think the current system is mostly fine as is, especially with the changes they recently announced for sparks and sockets... the one big thing I think needs changing is that imo gearing should happen in non-rated pvp. Rated should be where you go to take all your hard ground gear and then put your skills to the test, there shouldn't be a forced power gap in a rated environment. My off the cuff idea was to make it so there's only the boe combatant gear which would replace the current honor gear, and then honor gear would become the new conq gear. The gear would still be at the very low honor gear pve ilvl, but you could upgrade the pve ilvl all the way up to where conq currently allows if you wanted. The important bit is the pvp ilvl would be the current conq equivalent (so if it was this season 528). They could make the current boe combatant ilvl the ilvl floor when you que up for rated the way they do with BGB where it scales you up to that ilvl if you're too low. This shrinks the ilvl gap a bit, lets people with no gold and no honor have a mildly more competitive starting ilvl, people who want to buy boe's have a little leg up to keep the economy going, and then lets people max out their pvp ilvl and do their initial learning in a low stakes environment before they work up the courage to start trying to push rated... all while keeping gear in the mix. Rewards: Yeah I'm with everyone on the battle pass thing, the one major change I think needs to happen is the time gating / fomo of pvp rewards. There's almost 20 years of mog and mounts that could be reasons for people to get into pvp that they just don't have access to for no real benefit to the game. Figure out how to maintain the effort required to get those things, make a battle pass version of putting in that effort.. but give people a path. I care more about gaining a healthy amount of activity in the pvp scene than a reward being gate kept to a couple thousand people who happened to be playing the game 10 years ago during a specific 6 month window... and those dudes who manage to get to 1796 should feel like all that effort earned them the specific reward they were after when they finally get that last win in regardless of if it happens a season later. Shuffle healers: The problem here is two things, one is like you mentioned the MMR "leeching", imo if the matchmaker decided it was a fair enough lobby to put those players in it it should be completely ignoring enemy mmr for the rating calculation. A 3-3 should result in no change assuming your mmr is leveled out with your cr. The other bit is with there inherently being less healers in existence they inherently have a smaller mmr pool which means their pool is more deflated than dps by default. There needs to be some kind of inflation in the healer mmr pool to bring it up to the level of DPS. Solo que: As time goes on I increasingly think they really need to just add solo / duo que options to the ladder. I think the benefits outweigh the cons. We thought shuffle would be a good way for people to meet people, for people to be able to prove their own ability outside of the ladder context, etc etc.. but because its a separate mode that many look down on and the way the format works making it difficult to see if you really click with someone I feel like its not doing a great job at either of those. Solo que into the ladder on the other hand could work just like skirmishes where you could just to que up again with a group or individual you happen to like. If you're 2 guys and you need a 3rd you can just send it instead of sitting in lfg.... if you're at 2200 mmr but your toons at 1500cr and you don't have teammates you can just press the button instead of being in the awkward position of not being able to get into a 2200cr group but the 1500cr groups you can get into won't be able to handle the 2k+ mmr games you're about to play. On top of that I think players just don't appreciate how many off meta comps would actually work if they gave it a chance, and ladder solo / duo que would give them the opportunity.

[@knifetoucher]

Yeah, it's silly how they haven't updated honor level rewards since literally 2018 when BFA came out

[@rumham8979]

I think it was legion, but yeah I agree. Especially because people exploited it when it first released, and were able to aquire a LOT more honor levels than everyone else

[@knifetoucher]

@@rumham8979 No it was BFA when they changed the way honor levels work to the way they are now

[@alexunamoon1841]

Bring back spell count to how they were back in WOD / Legion and people will be happy

[@leequesada439]

There's a method as to why I play every class in the game. To learn and categorize spell effects and CC timing needed for each class and how to counter them.

[@RyanofAndor]

Premades are a large part of it. They suck the fun out of a match. Secondly getting a second gear set is a huge pain.

[@MaliciousCat]

Because PVP is as fun as rubbing your face with a cheese grater then squeezing a lemon over it after sprinkling salt.

[@nikgrubo1041]

As a CE mythic raider, the last time I was engaged with PvP was BfA. They added azerite traits (including BiS) unlockable through PvP (both arena and bg) and i really enjoyed the concept of getting "more powerful" in PvE by doing activities in PvP. I was doing some crazy amount of areans and bg to 1) obtain basic versions of azerite traits 2) get fancy visuals by pushing it even harder. Numbers speak them themselves, it was the first time probably from Cata when i played arena at around 2.4k rating.

[@ign0bilium]

Active combat spells: max 24 (two action bars)

[@Dark-vs2si]

Great videos! Love the idea of rewarding healers in solo shuffle. How about earning a healer transmog piece every 100 wins and a unique healer mount at 1,000 wins? This would encourage more healers to queue and play a lot of games!

[@Crayzyy]

As someone that hasnt touched pvp in years it is 100% the cc lock rotation that is way too intimidating. Hearing Pikaboo talk about his rogue opener makes me go "yeah, im not cut out for this" and prevents me from even trying.

[@rumham8979]

You mean you can't "SAP into vanish into SAP, gouge on the trinket, kidney into cheap shot on the other DPS while blind onto the healer" ?? 😂😂

[@MetuLiberOfficial]

Cause I can't play the game in PvP. I get kicked, sheeped, stunned, enemies are running away. It's dumb. In PvE I press my buttons and they have an effect, always, and nobody stops me.

[@Revvqt]

Worst part about learning wow pvp solo is that you won't learn anything in game. You will just get farmed. You Have to read/watch stuff out of game. Also macros/addons being mandatory in pvp is a instant turnoff.

[@cod-the-creator]

New World has a "pvp track" which is battle pass esque. Every time you hit a reward breakpoint you get to pick between random rewards (potions, gold, items, etc). It's neat imo.

[@ztormur6504]

my reason is simply that. its too complicated, and i don't enjoy being perma chain cc'd. that everything i intend to do is just stopped again and again and again. the combat doesnt even get a moment to breathe.

[@John-rz1wi]

I loved when the gameplan was simple. For example frost mage vs warrior, frost mage wanted to keep distance and control the fight with lower damage while the warrior hit like a truck but had limited opportunities to close the gap. The focus was on outplaying the frost mage and getting in range which was much harder due to limited mobility. But now all melee have tons of mobility, damage, and defense. This forced changes that gave ranged high damage, mobility, and defensives. Its more unnecessarily overcomplicated now when the correct formula already existed in the early years of the game. Melee mobility and ranged damage needs to be stripped back in pvp (both need to lose some defensives and CC)

[@NoOne4k]

My feral druid has around 35 buttons and none of them feel redundant. I think its fine tbh

[@Awood2207]

As a person coming back from a four to five year hiatus, I didn't find it hard to grind for Honor gear as is it for Conquest, of course I mostly play BGs as a Death Knight and Shaman, but I've wanted to try Solo Shuffles for a long time but I'm too afraid to cause other higher rated players to lose on MMR b/c I'm still learning all of my keybinds and macros but I often find myself having too many spells b/c they seem to be good to me, plus my hands don't stretch like they use to so all of the ones that do the Control button my fingers just feel very stiff and unresponsive at times. Plus I've wanted to learn how to heal for both Mythics and PvP and it's been a learning curve for me

[@ksherman51]

To me Cata has opened my eyes to a game where the rotations feel good in PvE unlike the older classic versions but the button bloat is low enough that I find myself enjoying PvP arena still. I dont know where that bloat cut off will be or if MoP / WoD will feel even better but it definitely feels close to a sweet spot right now from my personal pov

[@epicstudios142536]

What class do you play on retail? What buttons should this class have removed?

[@ksherman51]

@@epicstudios142536 I havent played Dflight but i usually play mage. Last played S1/S2 Shadowlands. Rotationally it felt fine but when I watch Hansol steam these days i cant tell what half the stuff he has are. Also a generalizations are the micro cc's feel a lot less in cata to me

[@epicstudios142536]

@@ksherman51 yeah I’m cata you don’t need to worry about micro ccs because the same buttons that would be micro ccs like garrote silence just last 6 seconds

[@nathan43082]

I generally dislike PvP because I dislike dying, especially to a player who I know is gloating on some other computer. It's an ego-bruising thing and I despise it. That said, there was one brief time that I did enjoy it, but it was at low levels, below 30, on a resto druid paired with another resto druid and a fury warrior. We made a fantastic trio.

[@matts7125]

It makes sense to give a class a lot of cc if it does not have a lot of survivability, it only doesn’t make sense when you give a tanky class a lot of cc

[@amdownzintel]

button bloat is a thing. I think every class is different as far as if it feels too much or not. Playing DH you feel like you have everything you need and yet you don't have that many buttons.

[@Mhortai]

A way to solve the honor gear being so bad, especially as the season goes on is just to have honor gear start to scale as the season goes on. Kind of like how the ilevel boost in the Blitz brawl or Solo Shuffle brawl in Slands did. As the season went on and seasons changed the ilevel scaling changed.

[@brandonbutler228]

The number of spells doesn't bother me personally. It is the feeling of having binds to focus targets 1,2,3. Tab or target 1,2,3 and have CC binds for targets 1,2,3. This inflates the button bloat to another level and has little to no use outside a singular mouseover cc/interrupt in PvE content.

[@LuisMiyrz]

Unfortunately people don’t have set timers or mechanics, and you never know when they’re going to pop certain CDs, you can only assume and prepare. Hence the 123 macros.

[@brandonbutler228]

@@LuisMiyrz I get that. The point isn't the purpose but how it is a gateway. If people are feeling like the number of spells they have is too much, then the expectation for 123 macros just inflated that number.

[@landondavies4933]

I like the idea of honour gear of every stat combination and now conquest becomes the upgrade currency. All conquest does is increase the ilvl and the stats of the gear. This should also affect teir gear. If they make getting bis gear as streamline as possible does it not also give clearer data of on what/how to tune each class on their performance.

[@MokasisGaming]

I like how 100+ people who PVE CC is too bloated. When you go to refute that fact and say "cata is worse" I kind of think that is apart of the problem and why PVP is dying out. How can you disagree with a hundred other people who say the same thing? With PvP dying?

[@kahricus]

Because it goes against the heart of the game - without the ability to control your opponent the game would just be a mongo PvE-fest. Imagine if in League they removed all towers/nexus/neutral objectives and it became a deathmatch - it removes an entire element of skill. While it may not be fun to sit in a lot of CC, imagine when your opponent also is uncontrollable - whichever specs have the highest throughput with automatically win every time, there’s no longer any nuance.

[@vaylox09]

Ive been daying since solo shuffle was implemented in SL have a 2v2 option without a healer. Why wait 30 min to an hr just becauae nobody wants to heal. In all aspecta of wow there are healer shortages.

[@toner01]

imagine if honor level was kinda like OG overwatch level, where it could make your player frame portrait get cooler looking depending on your level. its not a perfect solution/reward but i think it would be nice.

[@marcelovassoler3334]

For this topic, I think a PVE player already know his class, so with that in mind, I think a start is make clear when anyclass has a important damage/heal buff up (burst) and when anyclass has a important defence buff up (wall). With this start, is going to be easier to understand whats going on, and the basics on what you are supose to do.

[@leequesada439]

>>This could be in the seasonal battlepass>> The final tier could be an unarmored version of the Gladiator mount for the season, same color, just no armor, maybe even a few other changed aesthetics.

[@Gewsfrahba]

the stupidest part about factions is we can't do queueable or world content with the other faction, but we can do all rated content with them????? so we are more restricted for casual content than rated content???? how does that make any sense????

[@MrMorrigan1989]

100% agree with the video. I loved playing pvp in classic all the way up to wrath then it got slowed down so much that I could not be bothered to even try anymore. I liked the fun and quick pvp. If a fight takes ages and no one dies it's not fun for me. I like to be one-shot and in return oneshot others. The point that you have to CC the healer(s) to get a win after 10min seems also very boring to me.

[@quizkill]

Pvp gameplay became much quicker than classic. It's all fast paced, which is fun. I'm guessing you're just referring to time to kill, it is longer due to more abilities and a higher skill ceiling now.

[@Pelejenkins]

What if they made trinket like smite beads where you're actively immune to cc for like 1.5 seconds

[@SurfingJakeOwns]

there should be a game mode where: every time you get a kill/die , you switch opposing side,

[@nathansellers3870]

Hey Ven, been a fan since you were competing in tournaments. Just a thought on that initial spell bloat topic. Final Fantasy 14 did something that I hated at first but am starting to see the benefits. They made PvP instance classes different than their PVP counterparts. Reduced spell count and specialized the ones you had for PVP specific scenarios. Absolutely love it now, would definitely help Blizz balance stuff as well without having to worry about its affects outside of arenas/bgs

[@DartByga]

🎉1 you need to upgrade equipment for the season rating as it was in shadowlands, 2 you need more rewards for pvp, 3 you need to remove the default characteristics and allow you to customize your equipment as you want

[@woopig4419]

Tried playing pvp this week after not playing for a year. When I found out I needed flightstones to upgrade my gear rather than armor. What the hell is the point of the honor now? Also yes, my fingers kinda hurt during m+ but in pvp I feel actually fatigued.

[@CPhrost]

Upgrading pvp gear only affects its usefulness in pve environments. Boosting it with flightstones won't have any effect on the pvp scaling. In short, unless you're also raiding or doing m+ in your pvp gear, there's no reason to upgrade it.

[@woopig4419]

@@CPhrost well regardless, peoples health bars aren’t moving and I’m fully geared

[@CPhrost]

@@woopig4419 fully geared in honor or conquest?

[@woopig4419]

@@CPhrost honor

[@CPhrost]

@woopig4419 yeah like venruki said in the video, honor gear is pretty terrible this late into the season. Once people can send conquest gear to their alts, even people at 0cr will be running around in full conquest, and not having your 2 or 4 set is going to be a real hamper.

[@Farris2K]

If you want to simplify and make barrier to entry lower then as a generality every class should have 4 dmg abilities (rotational), 2 defensives, 2 cc, 2 dmg modifiers, then maybe a couple abilities for class/spec identity, whether thats dmg or defensives or cc. In total like 10-15 buttons usable during battle. My bars are currently setup for 8 rotational, 4 dmg modifiers, 8 cc, 4 defensive, and 8 "utility" which usually end up being movement/cleanse/dispel/party buff. That's 32 abilities that most of my classes track, though all of those don't always get used.

[@yarikh]

arena gear needs the Guild Wars 2 treatment, only useable in the arena and you just get to pick whatever you want, standardized stat levels, even playing field but you get to customize it to you taste of stats and set bonuses etc

[@sirbear4962]

idk, i think it’s the gear grinding, you really feel when someone is geared up and it makes the hill to climb so much harder if you start later in a season

[@Andorvaelis1]

I think instead of adding more spells, augmenting our spells in various ways is the better option

[@ryanba3]

I agree with a lot of this. Create all your macros for focus and 123, get all your addons. Get geared up while getting shit on and flamed. Try to figure out what all the abilities are and how to play around them while keeping nearly full uptime on your dps and positioning with 6 abilities happening in the game per second.

[@iv9ry]

They could add honor conversion to conquest for small portions like 15k honor goes into 100 conquest or smth

[@simonj8078]

Wouldnt an UI improvement be sufficient for the button bloat? Sure there are 1200 spells to know but only a handful of types, like instant burst, ramping burst, cc, fillers, etc. Couldn’t a solution be to show what type of spell it is in the UI such that you only need to learn your own class + the meta types of spells

[@ABoyd1852]

I only play WoW to PvP. Ive been playing since April of 2005. I havent stepped into a raid since LK. 90% of my playtime is bg's. Ive played tens of thousands of bgs. I prefer those over arena bc of the bigger team sizes and playing the bg objective. Arenas are ok, but its much more fun to stealth into the flagroom and burn down an EFC for a win in the last minute of the bg or ninja a node that turns the tide of the game. Thats what I enjoy.

[@nrevox]

Gearing - Might be easy for people who do rated or arenas. However, if you don’t want to play rated or arenas, then you can’t get passed honor gear. They should have an additional way for people to upgrade the honor gear to gladiator gear. Make it more expensive, but still have a way to get it without being tied to rating.

[@vaylox09]

All bgs give conquest, solo rbgs give conquest, weekly pvp quest gives conquest and skirmishes give conquest.

[@SamMathewsOfficial]

There are lots of ways to get conquest without doing rated. Weekly quests, win any match, and for any bg blitz you do. There is enough to reach the conquest cap every week and never do any rated.

[@nrevox]

@SamMathewsOfficial right. I see the weekly quests for arenas, rated, and shuffle. If you don't like those it takes way longer to get conquest. And you can't get gladiator gear? without rating. People do regs with rated gear and crush undergeared all day. . Me being a casual would be more willing to do those others if I could farm reg bgs or epics for the currency instead of being forced into the others.

[@maagi1]

@@nrevox There are epic bg, random bg and skirm quest sometimes too. Quests change every week.

[@SamMathewsOfficial]

@@maagi1 This guy obviously doesnt actually play the game.

[@terryward8842]

Would help if honor gear slowly scaled up each week or was upgradeable with honor at least.

[@bii2176]

For me as mostly a PvEr that dipped a bit into pvp (only like 1800 peak 3s lol) the main issue i struggled with was to feel that I was setting myself up to be able to improve and actually be good I had to completely revamp my binds+UI for pvp all the 123+target macros are so vastly superior to clicking on frames, once i'd have that set up it was okay but then I'd feel locked to pvp as jumping between was so much work, once I did this I'd just sit in 30min+ shuffle queues until I got bored and gave up.

[@painfullyavarage4316]

Something that would help a lot is the tooltip listing pvp changes when in war mode/pvp games. It's really stupid to have to hunt down wowhead articles to figure out an ability is nerfed by like 80% in pvp. The gameplay differences make sense but not explaining them in game leaves people confused and frustrated when the abilities they think should be powerful do nothing

[@Asmodeius]

some times i get a feeling that im playing at 1700 rating, trying to get that tmog on alt at 1800. i have a different pool of players. i even created another account to test it. account was fresh, i was slowly going from 1300 up to 1800. and around 1700 i saw people with bad builds, not full epic gear, wrong enchants, not minmaxed. people who would fk up cc, kicks, and would not even utilize them. than i get on my main account playing alt at 1700 for tmog. i felt like im playing 2k people, everyone minmaxed, proper kiting, proper kicking, never missed cc, barely any mistakes. super proper cd trades. as if blizzard marks accounts at some point and does not mixes pool of casual and not so casual players.

[@allentheaverageoldjoe]

Where to begin...huge video. First let me say I truly believe Ven is the voice of the people and agree with him near 100% of the time. With that said a few points I'd love for ANYONE to read lol... 1) Button Bloat is absurd on some classes, especially compared to others. 2) Modifiers really need to go by the way side. They are fun mechanics for creating engaging PvE rotations, but when you can be stunned/feared/etc into making your big hitter a limp noodle in PvP, it's just aggravating. 3) Yes, the number of spells is concerning, but more concerning is that you need keybinds for focus targets or arena 1,2,3, etc, it becomes way worse. I have multiple characters with over 36 keybinds and macros on many of those keybinds. 4) again not taking a shot at Ven but having a blizcon champion with an honor level OVER 1350 and over a bazillion arena matches tell me that the beta is playable with no addons while playing against others with no addons is not reassuring lol. 5) The CC problem already has a solution put clone, sheep, and fear on a 15-second CD like evoker sleepwalk. Making it more punishing when you shank it into a fade and not possible to chain clone an entire team. You have to be more tactical about when to use it. 6) pre-mades in random BGs is lame. Just go play RBG. Also, the consumables are not fun they are trash, lol. Sidenote being obliterated by King Baj is a blast. 7) Faction restrictions are just ridiculous at this point. We've fought interstellar space demons together at this stage of the game. Surely, by now, there are cross Faction marriages and interfactional/interracial marriages, etc. Just get over it for crying out loud. 8) An account wide MMR would be difficult because I might want to learn a new class (like sub rogue hint hint wink wink) and I don't want to try learning at 2.1k MMR. Also, what about when I want to play with my son or my nephews who aren't that good at the game? Now they would be getting roflstomped at 2k+ when they struggle for 1800. 9) Gearing is fine atm, and a PvE player complaining about PvP gearing is Ludacris lol. It is way harder to gear for PvE than PvP. The one change that should be made is that PvE gear should be obliterated in rated PvP. Not just nerfed, but the entire slot should have a red slash through it if the slot has a PvE item in it. I have abandoned S4 because of lack of rewards (sets are repetead) & PvE kit being BiS in PvP. I'm tired of getting ready to gear a toon and checking arena ladder, and it's all PvE rings and legos for bis. 10) PvP rewards are terrible, especially the fake honor level system. We don't even need a "new battle pass system" just a parallel PvP oriented Traveler's Log/Trading Post. If you made it through my rant, I'm incredibly grateful for being heard...or read...or whatever lol.

[@Wand422]

I joined the game before I really knew how many addons I would want for mplus because mplus sounded fun and I got eased into the addon situation, Now that I look at PVP fromt eh outside in, I immediately know I'd need a new ui, and I'd want to know whenever a relevant offensive/defensive gets used etc Knowing how much I wanted to do to get to where I am in mplus, it's kinda of daunting thinking I have to rethink all that entirely for a different game mode

[@RobotronOG]

They aren’t going to tell the real reason which is they have weak constitutions.

[@Chiz558]

It just takes practice. I’ve been pvping for a couple of years after I got bored of mythic plus. Playing at around 2100 now and really enjoying the game now that I understand it. Outplaying someone in a game gives you a massive hype

[@SOS51able]

I play WoW for the raiding and do my weekly keys for gear. Every time I do pvp its solely because its worth my time to get a conquest piece early on in a season and would taper off quickly once upgrades didn't exist. While I was pvping it was hard but it was a lot of fun. I know pvp and pve gearing has been greatly improved on for the overall playerbase but I loved S1 Shadowlands cause it made sense in my head that if you were exceptional in one area of the game you would hit max ilvl in pve and if you were exceptional in the 3 main areas (Dungeons, Raid and PvP) you'd do that but faster. High end PvE players obviously hated having bis in pvp and pvp players hated being outgeared by people grinding dungeons (which should never be a thing) but in my head it all made sense.

[@Sgt.Wolfhart]

I quit in MoP but we had this problem back then too people just didn't want to put the time into pvp anymore when blizz will just nerf things and change how spells work because of PVE. It's crazy that 20+ years later and bilz has still not just made pvp it's own thing with it's own spells. Even when people start to like pvp again because stuff feels great Bliz will go and nerf spells because someone ran a key to fast and that's OP so it hurts pvp players. Pvp in wow will only be great again if they stop having spells for both pve and pvp then fuking those spells up nerfing for pve.

[@lehzera7311]

Why not, regarding Honor gear and maybe Conquest gear. Just apply PvP Missives to each piece. Or have a little switch that selects the secondary stat you want. On every piece. That way you only need one set of gear per character that can change easily when swapping specs/loadouts etc. Make the Conq and Honor gear a little closer in ilvl like you said. But maybe has small addtions like extra gem slots/industructable, way higher PvE ilvl. Quality of life stuff with a little extra power.

[@fallefel8132]

SoloQue would solve a lot of Solo Shuffle problems

[@DethrowDestruction]

Retail CC feels like the cooldowns are really short, whereas cataclysm has more breathing room in between chains I feel like. Could be tripping and factually wrong, but that's how it feels.

[@Trulore24]

I'm an average 2k rating player. I love jumping into Solo Shuffle on an Alt with no gear, losing to1800 rating players due to MMR system and being verbally trashed for 10 games until I have some conquest and proper MMR.

[@dnwlkr935]

It is important to understand 1. Blizzard mistakenly based the Combat design on the basis of PVE scenarios and conditioned the Class design, harming the class\spec identity and various features of the battle. 2. The next thing they moved on to is an attempt to make pvp a little more accessible thanks to classes that win simply through pressure and simple universal skills for this case, Ex-Demon hunter. Solo shuffle with high rate decreasing heal, which allows you to play some classes quite effectively simply based on PVE dps synergy. Therefore, the availability of PVP is growing, but at the same time the choice of the same classes with primitive but murderous gameplay is sharply increasing, which displace complex and diverse concepts of behavior in combat from meta. Therefore, they destroyed the shaman class, its concepts of support and totems, catering to the interests of non-understanding players aimed at extracting individual dps in the pve scenario.

[@silencegaming3227]

Micro cc and self sustian is the biggest problem, every class has like 5 cc options, a mage doesnt need, poly, ring, db, frost nova, ice nova, blast wave, same that a dh doesnt need fear, aoe stun, single target stun, a slow and a sap

[@martin9202]

In my opinion, honour gear should be upgradable with honour points up to conquest gear ilvl and then conquest gear should be upgradable for example 2 more lvl based on rating… so you can farm honour points later in season and get to conquest gear ilvl or at least close enough and then you can get conquest gear and when you reach certain rating you can upgrade the gear little bit so you still have motivation to play…

[@MumpiTV]

3k io resto shaman + disc priest here I dont like PVP here as its all about 5-8 second burst windows where i as a healer just get CC'd and cant do anything and my teammate dies. I also dont like that arenas take so long, many minutes cause healers are to strong. dampening should be instant when the round starts so its not just endless battles that feel like theyre dragging on until dampening kicks in enough or someone goes oom. feels more like a waiting game for someone to go oom than it does skill based.

[@maagi1]

Ofc you can do stuff to stop most cc with both of those classes. And dampening starts instantly in shuffle.

[@Ahlizz]

I am in a position where I am slowly swapping over to maining healer. Myself and different people I've played consistently with have not been able to find a stable healer to play with for longer than a month. This has been going on since SL. But it feels like I have to start my experience journey all over again, somewhat. I can't apply to a 2.1k LFG group as a holy priest when I have all my exp on ele/ret/hunter etc, for one I'm not one to lie about my exp and secondly most ppl will look up class exp on checkpvp or similar. So then I get to play with the ret paladin that does not press bubble or use sanc which ofc sucks. but then again most of the times I'm not good enough on healer to carry. So why wouldn't I find a good ret on my main dps with exp, but then we can't find a healer. Quite frustrating.

[@Fooshi]

my main problem is trying to get into any group 2k+ everyone wants hero/glad. I usually reach 2k and then hit a massive brickwall and eventually burn out. I haven't seriously pushed since MoP and eventually quit every xpack now just due to this, not only that but all the mid season nerfs that happened S1 dragonflight just pushed me off

[@ongboklichan]

I've PvP'd off and on since Vanilla. I do love it, however in my later years, the time required to acquire an entirely set of different gear for PvP vs. PvE has dampened my love for it. I know you can technically go into battle in whatever gear you want, but without the high stam/vers that PvP gear gives you, you end up being farm bait, and that kills the fun factor a bit.