I Asked WoW PvErs Why They Don't Like PvP | Venruki Reacts

Original video: • I Asked WoW PvErs Why ...
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[@shieldsftw]

No way the legend himself is reacting to my video! Pog

[@Koldstare_wow]

Your video brought up a lot of good points. I used to love leveling through BGs but that was ruined from premades / level synced max level characters.

[@Altarknight]

I wouldn't call him legend 😅

[@Venruki]

Was a great video!

[@viberaider6852]

​@@Altarknightbut now that legend is an earnable title, I'm sure Ven has achieved it atleast once if not 4 times 😎

[@reactionjunkie7891]

@@Altarknight cool thanks for sharing.

[@SonGoku5363]

the solo shuffle queue finally popping, then someone declining and then back into another 20 min queue is the most real part of the video

[@iVibeBruh]

Lmfao

[@frmtheden]

bro foreal.

[@Pichu11000]

They need to start penalizing people who decline to join as hard as if they had left a game, even banning people who do it often, it's making the game unplayable. i resubbed a couple weeks ago playing very casual pvp and trying the soloq bg and it is infuriating, there's been times where i accept 8 consecutive times and someone declines so i just ragequit the game, and there are others where someone declines and then it just doesn't pop anymore for 20 minutes until i just get bored and quit the game.

[@SonGoku5363]

@@Pichu11000 the queues are too long, most people take a piss and miss the queue after waiting an hour lol

[@Pichu11000]

@@SonGoku5363 i get that for solo shuffle arena but the solo shuffle bg (i can't remember its actual name) queue is most of the time less than 10 minutes, if people can't pay atention for that amount of time then it's on them, and they are disrespecting other people's time so they should get penalized by not being alowed to queue again for at least an hour.

[@Diconius]

I think the reason retail CC feels so terrible is because it's the whiplash feeling of having your abilities/control taken from you so often. Like in 2 scenarios, if in 20 seconds you sat 10 seconds of CC... Option A. You sit a poly then a fear or something then had 10 seconds of uptime vs. Option B. You use one ability, eat a 2 second stun, another ability, eat a 1.5 second disorient, use another ability and eat a 3 second sleep, then a 1 second knockdown, then a 2.5 second stun. I'd choose Option A every goddamn time. In option B, You may have only been CCed for 10 seconds, but your entire gameplay was hard disrupted for for the full 20 seconds. That's the world we live in right now, and honestly it's just frustrating when there's almost zero downside to just mashing micro CCs as if they're part of a damage rotation.

[@motherpigeon1582]

Yes so your goal is to prevent that, it can be other team that is in that cc.

[@danielkarlsson397]

​@@motherpigeon1582 so lets remove damage totally and just have a cc fight. First to reach 60s of cc wins 😂

[@motherpigeon1582]

@@danielkarlsson397 No sir, let's make it pve fight and focus purely on damage, no cc so you can fight dummies like in cities xD Or you can use bloody cc just like EVER Y GAME created due to skillcap reason and ability to predict opponents choices. THere is a reason we call it pve andies because their ability to understand the situation and to make correct choice doesn't exist, and it is a reason why pvp players have no issue to play pve but not other way round. TO simple put, pve monke not gut.

[@WelsyCZ]

I hate both. I dont understand why pvpers enjoy playing only for 50% of the time. Even in earlier expacs such as cata and mop. The better you get at pvp, the more effective people are at disrupting your gameplay. I dont have fun when Im disrupted. Thats why I play pve.

[@Ecliptor.]

This was what made me stop playing pvp many years ago. It's even worse as a caster, because kicks are cc as well. So you fake, fake, fake and they miss a kick, you start casting, they cc you, cc ends, you start casting again, they have kick ready, repeat...

[@EMdragonKnight]

Barrier to entry is high. Most new players have to dig thru a lot of "unsub", "uninstall", "go kill yourself" feedback till they learn to play.

[@cd2194]

every game will have toxicity, and the spell barrier to entry is kinda fake, you do not need to know all abilities to play the game

[@TheRobochicken5494]

yeah but thats just every multiplayer pvp game

[@EMdragonKnight]

@@TheRobochicken5494 So the same issue exists for every multi-player pvp game.

[@nickfarace9339]

It is interesting because there is two aspects to barrier to entry. Actually getting a character ready to play PVP? Lower than its ever been. Actually finding players to play with? It has never been worse. Shuffle took people from LFR (for good reason) and shuffle has long queues. LFR is now a dumpsterfire and it was literally the worst thing about PVP before shuffle. It is basically almost impossible to find someone to play with if you don't have a completely open schedule.

[@milkco6607]

“EvERy GaMe WIth Pvp is lIKe tHAT.” Yeah. No shit. it still sucks and it’s still not fun to be around, yet it answers the question unlike these simple remarks.

[@theodenrex5769]

I used to play with a friend around 2.2k we never pushed glad because we didn't have a third, so we convinced a friend from college and tought him everything we knew. 1k to 1400 was easy, but from 1400 to 1600 was a pain in the ass, just because of addons, had to teach him how to use them and read the information, he managed to up his dps but got hardstuck at 1700, so we decided push to 1800 to get him the elite set, we did it and all of us unsuscribed, I was healing btw

[@MrVoltron23]

agree im in a similar boat. Its hard to carry someone who doesnt have full blown knowledge of every class past 1800 ish even with 2.2+ xp

[@IchWillDie]

Sounds very familiar

[@motherpigeon1582]

@@MrVoltron23 not full blown but who understands the main aspects and own win conditions.

[@sparv1067]

​@@MrVoltron23 You just need to learn the basic defensives and offensives each class has so you can react

[@MrVoltron23]

@@sparv1067 there are so many to teach someone. Every single class has 2-3 of each. I know them but teaching someone new every little thing is tough we’re just saying it’s not new player friendly at all

[@RedRagedRooster]

As a Resto shaman, id like to have about half the amount of spells. The REAL bloat is multipliers.

[@andrewshandle]

Shaman is really bad to be fair, I hope the rework next week cuts the bloat

[@therockontheshelf]

Shaman in general is really bad for that across all specs tbh, a lot of clunky systems where you use multiple GCDs to buff one ability

[@IchWillDie]

Lek my shaman says the same thing

[@MrOrangeonion]

@@therockontheshelf This

[@jingliestpockets]

I used to PVP a ton and got Gladiator back in BC. After a long break from the game, I haven't ever been able to get back into it for very long for a few reasons: 1. Gearing up in PVP requires you to to be good enough to consistently beat people who outgear you. 2. Relearning what every class and comp is now capable of and how to counter it is an incredibly steep learning curve when you have to do it all at once. 3. I've regressed personally -- Even when I have the right plan, executing it isn't instinctive anymore. Relearning PVP to overcome 2 and 3 could be fun if 1 weren't such a huge barrier. Granted, I haven't done an arena since maybe S2 in Shadowlands, so maybe the gearing situation has improved. I haven't bothered finding out.

[@NgRiBo]

Gearing right now is massively improved, no longer tied to rating, so a more even playing field. However other points I do agree with.

[@iPanicyt]

PVP is no where the same, indeed. When you got gladiator using focus frames, holding kicks, dispelling combust were very high level games and very hightech. Nowadays those things are complete baseline things you do as your first steps. Mind you, you cant dispell combust anymore. But Your point 2 and 3 comes with just playing. Just lose your first 10 matches (like it seems youre already doing) and you will be at a level with other people that struggle like you. Then you just slowly build it up. PVP is amazing because you get to instantly improve. Nobody expects you to know everything, and nobody expects you to be even 1800. You can easily find other people that want to just queue with you at your skilllevel. Its not like pvp where people leave 5 min into your key and then its bricked because the tank said other people cant pull. - The point is; just keep queueing. Chase the wins. Its very rewarding and watching a youtube video here and there when youre taking a shit motivates you a lot to go queue again with the new knowledge

[@Pichu11000]

@@NgRiBo you still need to win to get conquest, i play on and off and every time i come back to the game mid season gearing is a nightmare because i'm in full greens fighting with people in full conquest, which means my winrate is garbage, and since i'm not winning much i'm not getting conquest either, which means i'm not closing the ilvl gap.

[@jingliestpockets]

@@iPanicyt I know what it would take to get good again. It's just more work and more frustration than I'm willing to invest at this point in my life. Especially since my experience pushing keys is wildly more positive than yours. That said, the fact that gearing up is a better experience than it was the last time I gave it a shot could make the difference. The combination of learning curve + gear disparity is what really made it feel pointless.

[@nldev666]

hm i started from a similar position and found that gearing was really fast. within 2 weeks of hitting 70 im only 5 ilevel below the top solo shuffle player right now and have 2 piece set bonus as disc priest. maybe it's just because i started at the end of dragonflight, but leveling->gearing for pvp right now feels like an instant max private server. i don't really mind relearning everything since the high degree of complexity is what draws me to the game anyway (and regardless of how complex the game is the matchmaking system is always trying to make me win and lose equally as often). i'm just shocked to see people still backpedaling and never pressing dispel

[@motiveation1]

Blizzard should implement a ui that tells you the abilities your opponent used last 5-10 seconds before the death happened so the player can learn.

[@zero4915]

Wow kill cam

[@vorkanyx2172]

@@zero4915 Imagine seeing the UI and inputs of the guy who killed you, sound awesome!

[@zacharybryant3865]

This does exist in the worst way possible: combat log (i know it isn't like... the most informational but... yeah...). With that stupid statement I just made out of the way: yes I agree a UI would be nice on death.

[@Chakafuyo21]

But you've got both the "dead log" menu whenever you die and Details! Addon to check it🤔

[@seannolan3927]

kill cam aint gonna help 99% of the player base with their own UI and 900 macros and mods their missing. the game needs to be purged and rebuilt (the pvp part)

[@Paul-Sapp]

I’m outside in my phone and dam near jumped out my chair when his solo shuffle popped. Lmao that sound had me about to run inside… my computer isn’t even on 😆

[@fogismaximus]

The comment about Bajheera😂. That's most of his vids, one shooting people in greens while being trailed by 2-4 healers. It looks bad ass for sure

[@hotchowder]

Yeah, I got bored of watching his merry band of healers keeping him topped off as he stomps on randos.

[@attinger117]

That’s why I’ve never enjoyed watching his content. That’s lame and boring

[@danielkarlsson397]

Thats why all badass warriors since dawn of time looked so cool, cause they have a train of healers. For me warrior is the most fun class with healer, least fun without😅

[@theluckylux]

I mean, to be fair, he does that with his community. At least he has pumped to #1 in 3v3s enough times that he is skillful lol. So Pub stomping makes sense from time to time.

[@seannolan3927]

its not just PvErs, I'd say im a mega PVP head. Used to play at a 2500 MMR level back in wotlk, Cata and quit in MoP. coming back is a complete headache. back in the day all you needed was gladius to really enjoy the game but now I feel like im fighting my UI and macros, and 99% of the time I lose before I even begin. I simply dont have the energy to even begin.

[@wowzockasuc]

@@SteveHarvey272 that is cope, the pvp scene in wotlk and cata was more competitive. The general Playerpool and the high rated player pool was way bigger.

[@kiffu94]

@@SteveHarvey272 Wtf you are talking you know how hype? PvP in woltk-cata-mob was? geting 2.3 is like now 2.9 izi i solo pepega .. I can.t enyoj the aoe bashing in pvp feels like pve ...

[@wowzockasuc]

@@SteveHarvey272 1. you were talking about competition, not skill. Game was more competitive back then. 2. You are looking at both states of the game from a POV of this day, but you don't calculate the information inflation in your comparison of skill.

[@wowzockasuc]

@@SteveHarvey272 1. It's not the same 2. You're coping, hence the paragraph

[@Gewsfrahba]

the stupidest part about factions is we can't do queueable or world content with the other faction, but we can do all rated content with them????? so we are more restricted for casual content than rated content???? how does that make any sense????

[@writhes7170]

The competitive nature has become overwhelming for people. Tell me if I'm wrong. You need to know which cooldowns you have ready at all times, track your enemies cooldowns, buffs, casts and interrupt timers and set up a proper UI to help you do this. Develop an awareness for your own and other players positioning which is something that also takes time and practice. Always be ready for counter play when the enemy uses big cooldowns to make a move. Make sure you know when to make a move. Know how to perform at max output with your own class. You need to develop a sense of intuition to read your opponents (which is another long term skill learned over time) by actively paying attention and watching how people play which could all change as you move up in ranks. You can either A: go in naked without knowing anything and potentially develop lots of bad habits and painstakingly correct them over time or B: Research and develop a baseline understanding of the various things you need to learn and practice out of the gate but trying learning everything or even knowing how much you need to learn can be overwhelming.

[@nldev666]

you don't reeeaaally need to learn how to do any of those things since the matchmaking system is always trying to make you win at least 50% of your games regardless of how bad you are. i agree though it's overwhelming in the amount of things you'll need to learn to improve, but i think having a ridiculous amount of buttons to press and things to learn is part of the draw of WoW over other RPG-style competitive games out there. every game out there tries to be 'simple but deep', but only WoW satisfies those looking for 'complex and deep'.

[@Kerek77]

Every class having 2-3+ CCs/Micro CCs is a big problem. Arenas as a caster is very unenjoyable. You can get completely shut down, kicks don’t bother melee but all the CC in the game can affect a caster.

[@user36003]

Not every class has 2-3 + CCs or even micro CCs wai are you lying?

[@MFTomp09]

As a melee dps I have to say the inverse is also true. Going against casters is the worst experience ever. You ever try to stick on a frost mage as a melee? 17 blinks and slows and frost nova and knockbacks.. and that’s just from the mage. What am I supposed to do when you stand 40 yards away blasting me with slows and dmg? If I can’t get to you and stay on you for a bit, I’m never gonna win that fight. Running and hiding behind a pillar isn’t gonna win me the fight. I HAVE to use all the cc I have just to get a second or two two put the dmg on you and hope it sticks. Locks have fears and portals. Shadow priest has fear and can slow me.. hunters trap and disengage and aspect of the cheetah.. Point is, the cc is a necessary evil to combat all the abilities you casters have. If you wanna just cast one spell over and over while standing still, I’ll be glad to give up my cc to just charge in an smack you in the face with a hammer.

[@karldergrosse-333]

@@user36003 Every class has some form of CC in retail WoW buddy.

[@user36003]

@@karldergrosse-333 Buddy every class has some "Sort" of CC yeah but not 2-3+ and calling it micro CC is stupid look at shaman 1m CD on totem stun/lasso does that make you feel not wanting to pvp? just kick the lasso , i dont want to play Dps games like PVE but in PVP its a no brainer , classes like mage/druid have CD less CC just like rogue but far from all

[@Drualeaf]

This is exactly why casters go AFK in solo shuffle when they’re up against nothing but melee.

[@BeastMastery]

500 specs and 5000000000 abilities to learn and counter. 50min queues... Outgeared, outplayed, and meeting the meta, yippi kaiyay!

[@joelhodoborgas]

Nailed.

[@kevinross2339]

It's not impossible to beat someone in better gear

[@Add3Mana]

I've literally have never had a 50minute queue for any PvP content. Like top, 15 for a BG, and like 5-8 for Arena as a max. The rest of this is a skill issue. Lol

[@BeastMastery]

@@Add3Mana U never queued as dps then....

[@musicilike69]

It's not that bad and as a healer and priority kill....it's not that bad. Perhaps set different goals based on am i staying the same, developing as a combatant or getting worse? And what is gear? I dropped into a 40 man with 6 month old gear and flattened 4 other healers yesterday. Read your abilities in your skill book, read them again and then turn them upside down look for nuance and possibility of use. Then go out into the forest and kill 63 million boars I think.

[@IceWolve67]

To quote @TechnoPvProduction : "The other issue is gearing for PvP. Look at it from a new players perspective: I saw a cool streamer guy doing Arenas in WoW, i wanna try.. 1. Have to level to 70 or spend $60 on a boost. Now, can I PvP? No, the gear you get from questing is the ilvl from DF launch still. The gear you get from boosts are 424... so last seasons entry level gear. 2. Go buy gear off the AH. Would a new player know to do that? Most of the BoE green PvP gear costs thousands of gold PER piece. How much gold would you get from questing? From a boost? 3. Where is the PvP vendors? Thats a question ive seen from PvErs that try to get into PvP and ive been asked that by players in game. The guards dont even tell you where. 4.Grind out BGs. Now you know where the vendors are, you have to grind in your questing gear of 330 ilvl or 424 boosted gear against people in 489 - 528 pvp gear. You could run BGB for ilvl scaling but youll still be at a disadvantage. 5. Now you have your full honor set, ready to do Arenas? The thing you actually wanted to do? Nope, now you need enchants, crafted embellishments, gems, sockets on your neck. Since you spent your time grinding BGs you prib didnt do any farming so you have no gold. How do i get the embellishments? How do i craft? Do you have the gold to even afford it? 6. Addons and Talents. You got your enchants, embellishments, gems and stuff. Can you do Arenas now? No, you didnt set up the required addons to know whats going on. You also didnt setup the required arena123 macros. You didnt get the right talents pvp talents for your spec. 7. Now that youve done all of those things, NOW you can do solo shuffle. If youre dpsing you sit and wait in a 30min+ queue. You finally get, try to attack something an proceed to get obliterated by a DH drooling on his garage door remote. He's using it as a keyboard. Or the DK riding a glad mount on his 17th DK alt cause there's nothing for him to do ingame. You get 100 - 0 in a stun by a rogue that hasnt taken their adderall medication. You go 0 - 6 and get told to kys, uninstall the game, etc. 8. You log off an go play whatever game you were playing before. I really hope that plunderstorm was blizzard testing a future of WoW pvp that you can just jump in and play. No gearing, no addons, no bs. Just log in and pvp The other issue is gearing for PvP. Look at it from a new players perspective: I saw a cool streamer guy doing Arenas in WoW, i wanna try.. 1. Have to level to 70 or spend $60 on a boost. Now, can I PvP? No, the gear you get from questing is the ilvl from DF launch still. The gear you get from boosts are 424... so last seasons entry level gear. 2. Go buy gear off the AH. Would a new player know to do that? Most of the BoE green PvP gear costs thousands of gold PER piece. How much gold would you get from questing? From a boost? 3. Where is the PvP vendors? Thats a question ive seen from PvErs that try to get into PvP and ive been asked that by players in game. The guards dont even tell you where. 4.Grind out BGs. Now you know where the vendors are, you have to grind in your questing gear of 330 ilvl or 424 boosted gear against people in 489 - 528 pvp gear. You could run BGB for ilvl scaling but youll still be at a disadvantage. 5. Now you have your full honor set, ready to do Arenas? The thing you actually wanted to do? Nope, now you need enchants, crafted embellishments, gems, sockets on your neck. Since you spent your time grinding BGs you prib didnt do any farming so you have no gold. How do i get the embellishments? How do i craft? Do you have the gold to even afford it? 6. Addons and Talents. You got your enchants, embellishments, gems and stuff. Can you do Arenas now? No, you didnt set up the required addons to know whats going on. You also didnt setup the required arena123 macros. You didnt get the right talents pvp talents for your spec. 7. Now that youve done all of those things, NOW you can do solo shuffle. If youre dpsing you sit and wait in a 30min+ queue. You finally get, try to attack something an proceed to get obliterated by a DH drooling on his garage door remote. He's using it as a keyboard. Or the DK riding a glad mount on his 17th DK alt cause there's nothing for him to do ingame. You get 100 - 0 in a stun by a rogue that hasnt taken their adderall medication. You go 0 - 6 and get told to kys, uninstall the game, etc. 8. You log off an go play whatever game you were playing before. I really hope that plunderstorm was blizzard testing a future of WoW pvp that you can just jump in and play. No gearing, no addons, no bs. Just log in and pvp"

[@jessekappler4160]

As 2400 disc priest, the healer making the biggest impact is only at low rating. At higher ratings you don't tend to see this big of a skill gap, where healers are just losing rounds without using buttons. Usually if I lose lobby it's like 2-4 even when the other healer is way better than me. I only really 0 and 6 if the other healer is way better than me, and I'm playing in a lobby with a huge disadvantage such as 4 casters vs a resto shaman on a big map. Healers usually only 0 and 6 in low ratings because they don't know how to trade their CDs correctly and the other healer does. Or they have really bad trinket usage. I don't think healers make as big of an impact in higher rated games because they tend to last into dampening, and once you have enough dampening it's really hard to do anything but just barely keep your team alive. You are also the only role whose over all impact is directly reduced by the length of the game. Higher rated healers usually know the "script" of the game and trade their CD's well enough that even if their play isn't optimal, no one just falls over dead. Meaning the games come down to mana more often. Which you can argue mana management and healing efficiency is part of the skill, which I agree, but that's a lot easier on some healers than others. Like pres evoker feels like it literally doesn't use mana. I think DPS have a wayyyy bigger impact (depending on spec) at higher ratings. A boomkin popping incarn with full DR available on enemy team for example is literally GG with enough dampening. Unless your DPS do something to control the moonkin or LOS dam. This is all specific to solo shuffle btw. In 3's with more coordination and less dampening I think healers have a much bigger impact. Which also makes the game weird to balance, because 3's and solo shuffle are so different.

[@Asmodeius]

im 2100 resto sham and have other healers at 1800 for mog. mog collector if you want. but for that 2100 push i did. i have exactly the feeling you described. healers have have very little impact, every game goes into dampening where you lose if your enemy has traded CDs better than your team and have them up for phase when your heals dont do anything anymore. and at those late dampening games, general tendency is that the class with more shields and damage reductions wins.

[@jessekappler4160]

@@Asmodeius Yes exactly or the comp advantage. DPS definitely carry hard at these rating depending on their spec. Melees win through just massive dam/uptime. Rogues can win through godly setups. Mages can win with godly kiting/CC. As a healer you just get punished really hard for making aggressive plays that unless you are super far ahead already it doesn't feel worth it a lot of the time.

[@sparv1067]

yes I agree but only really at the high levels. Top 1-2 percent of players. I don't think its a reason for newer players to not get into the game, because they don't get to that level of skill for a long time anyway

[@masony101]

One thing that MOP remix has showed the community is the amount of collectors out there that primarily play to collect all the transmogs, pets, mounts, titles etc. They would try PVP if only they were incentivized to get more collectibles. So many people only play to 1800 in the current season for the elite sets and then stop, but there's like 25+ elite sets that most people don't have, especially newer players. Similar to getting vicious saddles, I think they should add a way to earn the elite pvp appearances and elite weapon appearances for previous seasons. Maybe every x wins above 1800/2400 you get a single token to get one piece of a previous season's elite set or a single elite weapon.

[@Orisha1990]

I had like 40 keybinds+ at the beginning of Dragonflight expansion as an Arcane mage, and I didn't even have arena123 crap set up. I was absolutely using all that shit and doing well but it wore me out, and after a while it stopped being fun seemed like I was playing the piano to get the same results as other specs could playing the recorder. Needless to say I quit the game 4 months in. In part for that, and in part because of the insane solo shuffle Q times and the PIA it was to find arena partners to play with consistently.

[@rivas623]

Before I even watch this video all the way through. I still think and always will think that WoW PvP has too high of a "perceived" barrier to entry for skill level compared to PvE content. you CAN be completely carried in PvE up until heroic and you dont actually need to get better, while you can be carried in PvP the actual good feeling you would get from lets say, killing a heroic end boss even if you got carried does not exist in PvP where even if you hit 2200 getting carried you did it getting to know the floor. Personal skill level is so much more important in PvP than it is below mythic raiding in PvE. as always, love your videos and viewpoints ven.

[@light_has_come3575]

My friends and I are usually 1400 in 3v3 arena. Our biggest struggle is complexity and lack of visual cues. So often we lose and have no idea why. Eventually I realized it is usually because we don't notice when an enemy uses an offensive CD and we don't respond until we're 1/3 HP. It is hard for us to notice moves like adrenaline rush or berserk or kingsbane. So we focus on M+ where it's so much more obvious what killed us.

[@stoneblood9864]

it just takes time. download the addon bigdebuffs and it will make pvp alot easier and help u see what your opponent is doing.

[@Asmodeius]

this is why you need like 5 addons to play PVP. but that should not be a solution. i completely agree that there should be visual and sound queues for all DPS and defensive CDs, like i can clearly see ice block, but i can't see ice bound fortitude. i can clearly see paladin's wings, but i can't see warrior's recklessness or avatar, or rogues king's bane. you are completely correct.

[@MrVoltron23]

i know its annoying to get addons for this but Bigdebuffs is the big one here that shows what BIG cds the enemy is using right on their portrait. Makes it much easier to see

[@light_has_come3575]

@@Asmodeius You're speaking my language. If all the important stuff was as visual as iceblock/wings my friends and I would play hella pvp

[@rumham8979]

I agree there needs to be better visual cues. You have to install specific add-ons to give you this info now, mainly weakaura

[@selina0ellise]

I'm so happy you found Shields video! I watched this video a few days ago and subscribed to shields because he did such a great job and I had the thought that I hope Venruki sees the video and reacts to it. How cool for you to have found it. 😊

[@12fulworld69]

PvEers use a lot of spells already and keybind almost everything. Still rotational spells differ somewhat (you never use sheep in pve, but cast it more than 10 times in every arena match), but I think that is fine. For me, pvp talents are a bit too much - they can be 3 new spells to keybind that are all important and take up priority on your bars and yet when you go back to PvE they just go grey and are never used. As a PvP and PvE player my 4 keybind, G keybind, and X keybind are all grey in m+, meaning I have to have more keybinds overall since some rare times I play with them all on.

[@kostax966]

def true about healing , as a healer main, dps is just more fun to play in this kind of "shuffle" format .

[@nathan43082]

I generally dislike PvP because I dislike dying, especially to a player who I know is gloating on some other computer. It's an ego-bruising thing and I despise it. That said, there was one brief time that I did enjoy it, but it was at low levels, below 30, on a resto druid paired with another resto druid and a fury warrior. We made a fantastic trio.

[@blooddruid.mp3]

I think as a healer main and being 2200+ cr right now on every healer spec. The thing that makes it unfun for me is the fact that kicks don’t DR into double melee, I think you can only get 1 kick every 15 seconds would make us feel like we do something. Melee is just far to overtuned with micro cc. Since the games in solo stuff have no voice, melee is at a massive advantage with additional dampening capabilities and unlimited mobility to just train healers. Compared to say a rogue / mage which requires a lot more execution demon Hunter warrior is automatically mega favored because the execution to be efficient is 100x more easier. Train healer and pve until it dies.

[@aciddk]

Green and purple gear should scale to the same ilvl in instances. That's my opinion, I think its dumb that it doesn't.

[@izayak9767]

Whats the point of farming epic gear then

[@aciddk]

@@izayak9767 World content

[@BasedChadman]

Agreed

[@EthCepher]

For unrated pvp (reg bgs & epics) yes. For rated and world pvp let conquest gear be BiS for those sweaty nerds.. and make the rewards juicy af.

[@BasedChadman]

@Tehilliym No. You need conquest to get purples, and you have to play rated to farm it. Just remove the pain point of farming against people with higher ilvl.

[@Crayzyy]

As someone that hasnt touched pvp in years it is 100% the cc lock rotation that is way too intimidating. Hearing Pikaboo talk about his rogue opener makes me go "yeah, im not cut out for this" and prevents me from even trying.

[@rumham8979]

You mean you can't "SAP into vanish into SAP, gouge on the trinket, kidney into cheap shot on the other DPS while blind onto the healer" ?? 😂😂

[@Liz-vm5ej]

Plunder storm was legit the most fun I had ( as a former pvp lover) Arena just is too frustrating, waiting 20 minutes for a queue drove me insane. needing to have an addon to scream wtf is going on sucks too. I was 2300 in wrath on chars, came back 10 years later and have not been able to break past 1700 before losing interest totally. IN plunderstorm i was able to learn all the abilities and figure out their synergies in a day or two. Arena play happens SO fucking fast i cant even see whats going on. UNless i have played the class... its too hard to track what people are doing. BGS are hit or miss, they are fun when teams are even and people dont give up immediately.

[@sparv1067]

You preferred plunderstorm because you aren't good at PVP, it's that simple

[@inspyre4312]

I think thats what got me so into it as a kid. The amount of improvement was so high. And then finally swapping from assa to sub. It completely changed everything. Old sub rogue was incredibly fun

[@alexunamoon1841]

Bring back spell count to how they were back in WOD / Legion and people will be happy

[@nikgrubo1041]

As a CE mythic raider, the last time I was engaged with PvP was BfA. They added azerite traits (including BiS) unlockable through PvP (both arena and bg) and i really enjoyed the concept of getting "more powerful" in PvE by doing activities in PvP. I was doing some crazy amount of areans and bg to 1) obtain basic versions of azerite traits 2) get fancy visuals by pushing it even harder. Numbers speak them themselves, it was the first time probably from Cata when i played arena at around 2.4k rating.

[@avirian6589]

The button boat is an ISSUE 100%. I have friends that I do M+ with that I want to queue PVP with but they're so scared to play. One friend plays a Warlock and he said he needs like 10 extra keybinds to do PVP because you never use those skills in PVE. For me, I have an MMO mouse (which I think my friends do to, but idk) I would PREFER to only have like 20-24 keybinds. Just 1-12 (on mmo mouse) and maybe shift modifiers, so 24 total. But if I'm playing my resto shaman, I need like 36 keybinds, which is just insane to me. The "MRR issue" isn't really much of an issue. If you make MRR account wide, the low MRR queue's would take an hour to get into game. There are ZERO new players to WoW, and not many new PVP'ers from PVE. Healing I think is pretty incentivized as it is, and I RARELY see a 0/6 healer lobby. I've already given my hot take on a 2v2 SS mode with only dps, or have a PVP template where your class can have new healing spells in a 3v3 SS. But most WoW players just flame the idea and disregard any form of change lol. Lastly, the gearing is fine as it is. It's WAY EASIER to get PVP gear, than PVE gear, so I'm not sure why this argument even exists. Sure greens suck, but at zero rating you're playing against other greens. I REALLY hate Legion PVP gearing, zero progression, zero point in PVP'ing except to get elite and quit.

[@ign0bilium]

Active combat spells: max 24 (two action bars)

[@allentheaverageoldjoe]

Where to begin...huge video. First let me say I truly believe Ven is the voice of the people and agree with him near 100% of the time. With that said a few points I'd love for ANYONE to read lol... 1) Button Bloat is absurd on some classes, especially compared to others. 2) Modifiers really need to go by the way side. They are fun mechanics for creating engaging PvE rotations, but when you can be stunned/feared/etc into making your big hitter a limp noodle in PvP, it's just aggravating. 3) Yes, the number of spells is concerning, but more concerning is that you need keybinds for focus targets or arena 1,2,3, etc, it becomes way worse. I have multiple characters with over 36 keybinds and macros on many of those keybinds. 4) again not taking a shot at Ven but having a blizcon champion with an honor level OVER 1350 and over a bazillion arena matches tell me that the beta is playable with no addons while playing against others with no addons is not reassuring lol. 5) The CC problem already has a solution put clone, sheep, and fear on a 15-second CD like evoker sleepwalk. Making it more punishing when you shank it into a fade and not possible to chain clone an entire team. You have to be more tactical about when to use it. 6) pre-mades in random BGs is lame. Just go play RBG. Also, the consumables are not fun they are trash, lol. Sidenote being obliterated by King Baj is a blast. 7) Faction restrictions are just ridiculous at this point. We've fought interstellar space demons together at this stage of the game. Surely, by now, there are cross Faction marriages and interfactional/interracial marriages, etc. Just get over it for crying out loud. 8) An account wide MMR would be difficult because I might want to learn a new class (like sub rogue hint hint wink wink) and I don't want to try learning at 2.1k MMR. Also, what about when I want to play with my son or my nephews who aren't that good at the game? Now they would be getting roflstomped at 2k+ when they struggle for 1800. 9) Gearing is fine atm, and a PvE player complaining about PvP gearing is Ludacris lol. It is way harder to gear for PvE than PvP. The one change that should be made is that PvE gear should be obliterated in rated PvP. Not just nerfed, but the entire slot should have a red slash through it if the slot has a PvE item in it. I have abandoned S4 because of lack of rewards (sets are repetead) & PvE kit being BiS in PvP. I'm tired of getting ready to gear a toon and checking arena ladder, and it's all PvE rings and legos for bis. 10) PvP rewards are terrible, especially the fake honor level system. We don't even need a "new battle pass system" just a parallel PvP oriented Traveler's Log/Trading Post. If you made it through my rant, I'm incredibly grateful for being heard...or read...or whatever lol.

[@musicilike69]

Some good points except 7. I'd like a new faction, the utter barstwerds faction who hates the other 2 for going soft,

[@SupaFly-gx1zo]

The secondary stat allocation suggestion is how Guild Wars 2 does things, at least back when I played. You would socket gear with rune combinations to give yourself certain effects and stat boosts. Everyone had access to the same runes right from level 1, and the game scaled you up to max level so the playing field was even. It was a HUGE way to get me into GW2 PvP and I wouldn't have touched it if I had to grind out as much as veteran players to even start. I don't even like making alts for WoW because gearing is so annoying. I don't feel like I'm even playing my class until I've gotten like 5k Conquest on them and 20k gold worth of enchants. The entire progression path feels bad to experience, and that's a sign that it can safely be removed.

[@bycandlelight2957]

I played so much more GW2 pvp than WoW pvp for this reason. Was SO easy to make a class you've never played and get right into it, switch things around and try new ideas. Them having an arena right in the PVP lobby you could hop into at any time, the ability to buy private BG instances to run with your guild or friends, statues of notable pvp players... just having a separate SPACE for the community felt so nice. WoW could really do with trying that again.

[@evg3nius]

GW2 PVP design is miles and miles ahead of WoW. Too bad its lacking in other areas.

[@OldboyGamez]

DPS = 4 dmg spells, 1 buff spell, 2 cc spells/1 slow 1 lose of control, 1 dmg mitigation spell, 1 utility spell, no self heal spell Healer = 2 dmg spells, 1 buff spell, 2 cc spells/ 1 slow 1 lose of control, 2 dmg mitigation sells, 1 utility spell, 4 heal spells (hots, big heal, efficient heal, instant heal, shield) depending on heal class naturally - druid, pres evo would have more hot spell than casted spells, and paladin reverse, for example remove all combat addons from game

[@86400SecondsToLive]

How about you play the game first before you give out your armchair dev take.

[@Zemilia22]

You just described a moba which would be terrible because it would lack all of the depth that makes mobas interesting in the first place.

[@DethrowDestruction]

Retail CC feels like the cooldowns are really short, whereas cataclysm has more breathing room in between chains I feel like. Could be tripping and factually wrong, but that's how it feels.

[@dfcd1432]

No I think you're right. Arenas in retail are designed entirely around CDs and nothing else. Most specs do virtually nothing until their CDs then out of nowhere become a god for 5-10 seconds. Classic, even into Cata feels the opposite, cooldowns are great and they help of course but you can win the game outside of a CD window by just outplaying. I'm sure in both versions there's a couple specs that are the exception but overall that's how I feel it is.

[@Revvqt]

Worst part about learning wow pvp solo is that you won't learn anything in game. You will just get farmed. You Have to read/watch stuff out of game. Also macros/addons being mandatory in pvp is a instant turnoff.

[@johnd2946]

That's a problem in PVE as well. The game teaches you nothing, and you need to go to youtube to learn strats and curseforge/wago to get addons and weakauras.

[@Daybyday244]

Love this video, its a very relevant thing to bring up. I was a PvP'er myself but after years I swapped to PvE, and it saddens me to see the PvP side of WoW going down, but its hard to keep finding fun in it. Sub rogue is a perfect example of how complicated WoW PvP can be. The skill it takes keep an overview, to do damage, time your controls in the arena chaos, its just absolutely madness...

[@knifetoucher]

Yeah, it's silly how they haven't updated honor level rewards since literally 2018 when BFA came out

[@rumham8979]

I think it was legion, but yeah I agree. Especially because people exploited it when it first released, and were able to aquire a LOT more honor levels than everyone else

[@knifetoucher]

@@rumham8979 No it was BFA when they changed the way honor levels work to the way they are now

[@Nick-4K]

20 buttons? I think 8 is perfect. Like 8 combat ones. The rest can be extra stuff

[@musicilike69]

Those extras are what has me running rings around people and changing the game by making them angry so they tunnel and play bad. When my cute little b elf Mw beech slaps and ROFL's in that melee's face and messes up their play with CC, when he abandons the game to try and kill me I'm giggling. For me I think the extras is usually where the fun is.

[@yavantii3615]

Guild Wars 1 had a 8 button hotbar of abilities you could chose freely to make your own build. Was the best PVP I ever saw.

[@d.j.9739]

This video is gold!

[@NoOne4k]

High barrier to entry is true if you consider that as a PvE player you gear for PvE first and that means you have to have 2 characters to not be behind in gearing and crafted pieces. THANKFULLY THATS FINALLY GONE IN THE NEXT XPAC

[@Qyzme]

After 18 years I still can’t remember which CC Spells are on the same dr. For me, they could make it like - once you’ve been ccd 3 times, you’re immune to cc for 30 sec. All spells on one dr!

[@Luxeley]

The last point is extremely relevant at lower levels when climbing the ladder and insanely frustrating. You don't XP it because you're not queing below 1800. The biggest key to getting out of the doldrums is win momentum (streaks of 4 wins or better). Going 0-6 or even 1-5 largely because of bad healer kills all momentum and progress. In other words, it's one step up, but then 2 steps. Add in the fact as a DPS you're waiting in Queue 20-30 min on Avg and sometimes even longer. The latter point is truly what makes it frustrating and borderline intolerable.

[@theguru333]

Rotationally spell kits should be very simple, the complexity in pvp should always come from utility spells. That's where the outplay and fun comes from. It's the same in every PvP focussed game.

[@Dark-vs2si]

Great videos! Love the idea of rewarding healers in solo shuffle. How about earning a healer transmog piece every 100 wins and a unique healer mount at 1,000 wins? This would encourage more healers to queue and play a lot of games!

[@Mhortai]

When people ask for CC to just be removed in PvP, I don't think they know how awful that would be. It's just the micro CC's and all the AoE passive stuff being designed around M+. There are also a lot of PvE'ers that just don't use defensives. They try to zug, and get frustrated when they can't. Premades can be largely fixed by removing cross faction. Cross faction messing up the sync queuing random groups you see largely in Epic BGs.

[@Bacon-egg-cheese]

Bloat: While there could be some button pruning I think the bigger issue is how many interactions are backed into individual buttons. I always use vengeful retreat (VR) as an example, VR by default is a repositioning button that launches you backwards, you can use this to get away and kite, or flip your camera and use it to lunge towards a target, its a good button for its default function.. but then talents come in and now this button also potentially... a damage reduction, a cc immunity, a slow, a crit buff, a fury generator, and a % damage modifier... all wrapped into a single button.. and some of those functions contradict each other. If I use the button as a cc immunity / defensive I may lose out on the resource generation, damage increase, or I might not have it to reposition later. The same thing happens with your Thistle tea example, I might not need the energy but I'm pressing the button for the mastery or vice versa. These things are not always in harmony... hence bloat is not just about the number of buttons but how many interactions are packed into a given button. CC: I find the communities focus on "micro cc" often specifically around melee odd when I tend to find that its mostly wizards who have an excessive amount of macro cc. The worst offenders are specs like demo or any rogue where they're stacked with spammable and or long duration short cd cc while also having a bunch of micro cc options. There could also be some pruning for specs like havoc where it could probably stand to lose fear and not be that impacted by it... but I really think things like cyclone or the massive amount of cc demo has need to be looked at more. Gear: While the lost ark system is imo ideal I don't think blizz will go that route because wow players like getting gear too much. They also don't want the pvp gear to be too easily customizable while also being able to have competitive pve ilvls because then pve players feel forced to do it. I think the current system is mostly fine as is, especially with the changes they recently announced for sparks and sockets... the one big thing I think needs changing is that imo gearing should happen in non-rated pvp. Rated should be where you go to take all your hard ground gear and then put your skills to the test, there shouldn't be a forced power gap in a rated environment. My off the cuff idea was to make it so there's only the boe combatant gear which would replace the current honor gear, and then honor gear would become the new conq gear. The gear would still be at the very low honor gear pve ilvl, but you could upgrade the pve ilvl all the way up to where conq currently allows if you wanted. The important bit is the pvp ilvl would be the current conq equivalent (so if it was this season 528). They could make the current boe combatant ilvl the ilvl floor when you que up for rated the way they do with BGB where it scales you up to that ilvl if you're too low. This shrinks the ilvl gap a bit, lets people with no gold and no honor have a mildly more competitive starting ilvl, people who want to buy boe's have a little leg up to keep the economy going, and then lets people max out their pvp ilvl and do their initial learning in a low stakes environment before they work up the courage to start trying to push rated... all while keeping gear in the mix. Rewards: Yeah I'm with everyone on the battle pass thing, the one major change I think needs to happen is the time gating / fomo of pvp rewards. There's almost 20 years of mog and mounts that could be reasons for people to get into pvp that they just don't have access to for no real benefit to the game. Figure out how to maintain the effort required to get those things, make a battle pass version of putting in that effort.. but give people a path. I care more about gaining a healthy amount of activity in the pvp scene than a reward being gate kept to a couple thousand people who happened to be playing the game 10 years ago during a specific 6 month window... and those dudes who manage to get to 1796 should feel like all that effort earned them the specific reward they were after when they finally get that last win in regardless of if it happens a season later. Shuffle healers: The problem here is two things, one is like you mentioned the MMR "leeching", imo if the matchmaker decided it was a fair enough lobby to put those players in it it should be completely ignoring enemy mmr for the rating calculation. A 3-3 should result in no change assuming your mmr is leveled out with your cr. The other bit is with there inherently being less healers in existence they inherently have a smaller mmr pool which means their pool is more deflated than dps by default. There needs to be some kind of inflation in the healer mmr pool to bring it up to the level of DPS. Solo que: As time goes on I increasingly think they really need to just add solo / duo que options to the ladder. I think the benefits outweigh the cons. We thought shuffle would be a good way for people to meet people, for people to be able to prove their own ability outside of the ladder context, etc etc.. but because its a separate mode that many look down on and the way the format works making it difficult to see if you really click with someone I feel like its not doing a great job at either of those. Solo que into the ladder on the other hand could work just like skirmishes where you could just to que up again with a group or individual you happen to like. If you're 2 guys and you need a 3rd you can just send it instead of sitting in lfg.... if you're at 2200 mmr but your toons at 1500cr and you don't have teammates you can just press the button instead of being in the awkward position of not being able to get into a 2200cr group but the 1500cr groups you can get into won't be able to handle the 2k+ mmr games you're about to play. On top of that I think players just don't appreciate how many off meta comps would actually work if they gave it a chance, and ladder solo / duo que would give them the opportunity.

[@billflynn9962]

too many defensives for certain classes like mage/rogue.. too many micro cc/stuns.. too much self heal for dps (why are rogues/mages able to heal?) makes no sense.. too much addons required to play/track certain spells. and worst of all too many toxic/elitist players.... as far a choosing your stats on gear i think it should be like game-wide.... gear should have main stat/2nd stat instead of haste/verse for example. and the PLAYER chooses what their main/second stats are.. then they can switch specs and that new spec will have those main/second stats at the same levels so they dont have to farm more gear for different stats... play the class you want to play without having to farm new gear

[@supersolenoid]

25:00 Implementing back (a working version of) stat templates in PVP (maybe even allowing players to customize them, to a point) would be the best way to level the play field a bit. At least in non-rated BGs and lower bracket arenas.

[@MetuLiberOfficial]

Cause I can't play the game in PvP. I get kicked, sheeped, stunned, enemies are running away. It's dumb. In PvE I press my buttons and they have an effect, always, and nobody stops me.

[@S2Hgaming]

I quite like the PVP style in WoW cause of the amount of spells. You arent limited in a couple of ways so instead you've got many chances to avoid cc, counter several things etc.

[@MaliciousCat]

Because PVP is as fun as rubbing your face with a cheese grater then squeezing a lemon over it after sprinkling salt.

[@kevinross2339]

That's how I feel about pve. People that enjoy pve are literally insane. "hey you guys wanna kill this raid that has bosses that will FIGHT US THE SAME EXACT WAY THEY DID LAST WEEK, LAST MONTH, LAST YEAR?!? OH EM GEE, THAT SOUNDS SOOOOOOOOOOOOO FUUUNNNNNN" lol just kidding, it's snooze ville.

[@guillermochan6396]

I could def be wrong, but in my opinion: 1. set amount of total stats in pvp, distributed by the worn gear stats, this way you are still working on your gear so it feels like an mmo. 2. Add a rating to random BGs, your MMR should be max rating of all players in the group, hence more people playing vs their actual skll level. Add more rated solo que options (arenas, bgs) (maybe set up a list of premade spec teamups that make sense for arenas) 3. Increase the rating gain per won game by 50% for every alt you have 1 or 2 PvP Ranks higher. Also, your MMR should not be lower than the lowest range of your highest rank-1 to avoid tanking MMR to carry people. (I hate the world of carry-craft and it really hurts people getting into PvP and feeling the only way to play is paying someone to carry you) 3. simplify damage rotations, reduce damage multipliers (hence reducing huge burst windows and making damage outside of burst windows more significant, I think the balance between CC and burst is what makes it feel there is waaay too much CC) 4. eliminate passive healing in DPS classes and make all self healing cost dps resources, I believe self healing for a DPS should only come at the expense of damage output. 5. remove all add-ons in rated games but the UI really needs to improve, maybe make more generic pvp specific effects that let you know if a player used offensive CDs and other effects for defensive CDs. People should never have an advantage in pvp because they have an add-on.

[@robdabanks]

It's really simple to solve for me. 1. Addons need to be disabled in PVP combat and Blizzard needs to improve the visual telegraphing of very powerful attacks/buffs to identify kill windows better. Removing the addons removes a huge uneven playing field that causes experienced players to stomp newbies. 2. Blizzard still is doing new players a massive disservice with a very ancient default keyboard layout. We make a new character and set up all of our bars, but the game doesn't actually teach you to do this, nor does it teach you to macro abilities. A combat tutorial place, with a cinematic gladiator instructor, showing players how to use custom keybinds should be in every old PVP hub or class trainers should be able to teleport you to them. Bonus points if they paid some of the legends in the PvP community to do the voice acting for these training NPCs. You could even create a suggestive keybind layout that groups CC abilities in one spot, defensives, bursts ect, colouring them with a slightly different colour tint per class to suggest a layout, rather than leave players to make their own unique, chaotic layout.

[@jessrabbitxt]

1. Will never happen

[@plague6174]

2. is essentially now putting the game on easy mode for everyone and there is now no longer a visible skill gap which is part of what makes wow pvp feel rewarding. Just git gud like everyone else.

[@vranthis]

​@@plague6174 Even on the same playing field, you can show that you are better and make it even more obvious because there is no excuses. Git gud would be even more relevant. We got the same gears same layout same everything...than yoo would have the rights to say ..Git Gud son...

[@plague6174]

@@vranthis andy cope

[@vranthis]

@@plague6174 What should i understand ?

[@II-xw6kg]

Didnt expect that random 'stay away from tha voodoo' lmao, good vid!

[@mark45635]

They don’t like it because from 10-60 hunters, Rshams, Rdruids, insta kill and there’s a group of unemployed people twinking and xp stop glitching at low level pvp to get their rocks off. So the newcomers first impression is it’s already complicated but also unfair bad impression from start these same people exist 61-69 to. Then when your max and you somehow haven’t already switched to pve by now your still a newcomer and barely know how to do things and get shredded by unemployed sweats there too🤦‍♂️. If they want people to play pvp they need to fix a lot of problems not only at max level but the whole 10-70 brackets low level pvp is every newcomers first impression on pvp.

[@mithrandirthegrey7644]

The addons are a barrier to entry. Just remove all addons for pvp.

[@michaelwandl4504]

10 to maximum 15 spells per class would be enough in PVP situations to keep it simplified

[@Epidombe]

Mobas do fine with 3-5 per hero, and theres hundreds of heroes in some of those. Its obviously not 100% equatable but the point is that you can make a game fun with out needing to spend 200 games getting your controls set up

[@sparv1067]

@@Epidombe But if we wanted a moba we'd all be playing that right?

[@Epidombe]

@@sparv1067 right. And if I wanted to say “I want wow to be a moba” I would have said “I want wow to be a moba” right?

[@bookbookbook1]

@@Epidombe thing about mobas is that there are hundreds of characters, league only has a certain amount of specs

[@Epidombe]

@@bookbookbook1 and that is vastly simpler still than having the 12 classes each with varied specs, different races, different borrowed power, set bonus, and most important of all - all of the macros. (Staring rant) I understand the purpose and freedom of macros in the game but it really convolutes so much with the amount of abilities each specialization has. I started getting into cata disc priest and found myself going for 10-15 buttons I press to almost 30. And I dont even know if thats enough. Things like mouseover, cancelcast modshift, etc, really could work well with 5-10 abilities but the fact you have to basically reprogram the game (which isnt really something offered educationally in game) and controls in order to compete at a somewhat reasonable levels on top of everything else is just too much. You can argue that its skillcap and whatnot but why would anyone be interested in that amount of frontload just in order to try something out? On top of having to spend dozens of hours just getting geared and learning the overview of things, then they have to spend dozens of hours not only figuring out what the need to modify in their games commands and keybindings, but also figure out how. League as an example is: settings-> turn mouseover on/off. Thats pretty much it and you can get into the games

[@Catxukluth]

Something that would help a lot is the tooltip listing pvp changes when in war mode/pvp games. It's really stupid to have to hunt down wowhead articles to figure out an ability is nerfed by like 80% in pvp. The gameplay differences make sense but not explaining them in game leaves people confused and frustrated when the abilities they think should be powerful do nothing

[@kermittkerrr7071]

the moment i start to actually need to "sweat" to win a game in arena is where i always stop to play pvp xD

[@RyanofAndor]

Premades are a large part of it. They suck the fun out of a match. Secondly getting a second gear set is a huge pain.

[@matthewmurphy1882]

1.) Remove all Rascals from PVP 2.) Remove all Add-On's 3.) Less DR Schools 4.) Less Micro CC 5.) Speed Up Gearing 6.) DPS only BG's 7.) Dou Que RBG's for all Specs/Roles 8.) PvE Style Quests for PVP accomplishments (More) 9.) Lower hanging fruit achievements 10.) Force. Make items in PvP. PvP people have to PvE, should be the other way around. 11.) No Macros Spells: 20-25 included mount/hearth

[@Drualeaf]

Add-ons aren’t really a problem. Macros and using third-party software to play for you is the problem. It’s ridiculous how I go to cast, and I’m stopped immediately by a person isn’t even targeted on me.

[@marcelovassoler3334]

For this topic, I think a PVE player already know his class, so with that in mind, I think a start is make clear when anyclass has a important damage/heal buff up (burst) and when anyclass has a important defence buff up (wall). With this start, is going to be easier to understand whats going on, and the basics on what you are supose to do.

[@bosssavage3325]

PvErs don’t like direct competition vs other real humans. Their capacity is limited to scripted content that never changes and that doesn’t require any brainpower. In PvE, they can lean on their teammates and get a boss kill and they will feel good about it but in PvP, they need to actually perform because people will actually call them out for being bad.

[@stoneblood9864]

facts

[@CPhrost]

I mean this isn't remotely true. High end pvers are always looking at their parses and rankings and love competing against other players within those brackets. Just like in pvp there are players who are lower on the skill ladder and will get carried but by and large the people who actually care are constantly competing with each other to have higher parses or faster m+ times or higher IO rating.

[@stoneblood9864]

@@CPhrost the difference is pvp is significantly harder and more impressive to be better at. almost any average pvper at even 1800cr could immediately que mythics and pick it up almost immediately. Most pvers on however, couldnt hit 1800 in pvp if they had a gun to their head.

[@CPhrost]

@stoneblood9864 there's a fair amount of cross section between them though. CC chaining, positioning, team synergy, all of these things carry over. Anyone at 3k IO could easily hit 1800 in 3v3 if not higher. The fact of the matter is both game modes require an extensive knowledge of both your class and your teams abilities. The only difference is in pvp you have to know the enemies as well. That being said, M+ players also have to have an intimate knowledge of every mob and pull in every dungeon for the season, what abilities to kick, what to cc, all while positioning to avoid damage and deal with affixes. Like I said, there's a lot of overlap between high end pve and high end pvp in terms of skill requirements.

[@saurlex1368]

i just find PvP to be very stressfull tbh. Slaying dragons is chill vibes.

[@TAGGdinc]

It's nearly impossible to make pvp rewarding and fun for both veterans of the game and newcomers

[@SupaFly-gx1zo]

Cosmetic reward paths. GW2 has had battle pass style reward tracks that offer you armor sets, weapon effects, crafting materials, pets, mounts, a whole slew of different rewards for you to chase. Getting into GW2 PvP was enjoyable, outside of class balancing complaints. The entire system around stat allocation, level scaling, and reward structure was awesome. It's not as insurmountable as you'd think, the WoW playerbase is just very volatile about any change to the game. If Blizzard just ripped the bandaids off and stopped treating the playerbase like the manchildren they are, we could have very pleasant PvP instead.

[@MrSherhi]

Yea but what better, A) keeping ever shrinking PvP playerbase consisting of the same people over and over again for past 15 years (total count maybe 5000 players) or B) ignoring current PvP playerbase and try to bring in masses😂

[@zfeazcesd1047]

i played shadowlands and legion and the thing that turned me off from PvP was learning all the specs. I played mostly mid to high mythic+ and as a new player the road to improvement was simple and direct. You read a class guide and a dungeon guide and you're mostly set. I've only logged on to 3 classes in WoW...total...but I could see how being a good PvPer requires knowledge of all the classes...i didn't have a good way to go about learning that and even though I'm a bit of a tryhard I"m not going to read a wiki on every spell in the game.

[@donwooss]

ban addons

[@ksherman51]

To me Cata has opened my eyes to a game where the rotations feel good in PvE unlike the older classic versions but the button bloat is low enough that I find myself enjoying PvP arena still. I dont know where that bloat cut off will be or if MoP / WoD will feel even better but it definitely feels close to a sweet spot right now from my personal pov

[@epicstudios142536]

What class do you play on retail? What buttons should this class have removed?

[@ksherman51]

@@epicstudios142536 I havent played Dflight but i usually play mage. Last played S1/S2 Shadowlands. Rotationally it felt fine but when I watch Hansol steam these days i cant tell what half the stuff he has are. Also a generalizations are the micro cc's feel a lot less in cata to me

[@epicstudios142536]

@@ksherman51 yeah I’m cata you don’t need to worry about micro ccs because the same buttons that would be micro ccs like garrote silence just last 6 seconds

[@stuartkawamoto9608]

#1 reason PVErs do not like PVP is because they cannot handle being sent to the GY by PVPer

[@matthewmurphy1882]

It reminds them they aren't good at the game, which break their Class fantasy and their feeling over being powerful. Weak minded people do not like challenge.

[@LeeQuesada-CoTGaming]

There's a method as to why I play every class in the game. To learn and categorize spell effects and CC timing needed for each class and how to counter them.

[@DartByga]

🎉1 you need to upgrade equipment for the season rating as it was in shadowlands, 2 you need more rewards for pvp, 3 you need to remove the default characteristics and allow you to customize your equipment as you want

[@MrMorrigan1989]

100% agree with the video. I loved playing pvp in classic all the way up to wrath then it got slowed down so much that I could not be bothered to even try anymore. I liked the fun and quick pvp. If a fight takes ages and no one dies it's not fun for me. I like to be one-shot and in return oneshot others. The point that you have to CC the healer(s) to get a win after 10min seems also very boring to me.

[@quizkill]

Pvp gameplay became much quicker than classic. It's all fast paced, which is fun. I'm guessing you're just referring to time to kill, it is longer due to more abilities and a higher skill ceiling now.

[@cod-the-creator]

New World has a "pvp track" which is battle pass esque. Every time you hit a reward breakpoint you get to pick between random rewards (potions, gold, items, etc). It's neat imo.

[@JordanSlash]

"Barrier to entry" is the most important one honestly. You will get flamed constantly if you begin pvping. The pvp community expects everyone to never queue for pvp unless you are fully optimized(and also play perfectly and have all the right addons and macros because why dont you know everything about the game, youre pvping, not trying to have fun). The expectations from the most smoothbrain random solo Q player is the barrier to entry, and when that is realistic it will not be a hurdle for new players.

[@John-rz1wi]

I loved when the gameplan was simple. For example frost mage vs warrior, frost mage wanted to keep distance and control the fight with lower damage while the warrior hit like a truck but had limited opportunities to close the gap. The focus was on outplaying the frost mage and getting in range which was much harder due to limited mobility. But now all melee have tons of mobility, damage, and defense. This forced changes that gave ranged high damage, mobility, and defensives. Its more unnecessarily overcomplicated now when the correct formula already existed in the early years of the game. Melee mobility and ranged damage needs to be stripped back in pvp (both need to lose some defensives and CC)

[@LeeQuesada-CoTGaming]

>>This could be in the seasonal battlepass>> The final tier could be an unarmored version of the Gladiator mount for the season, same color, just no armor, maybe even a few other changed aesthetics.

[@nathansellers3870]

Hey Ven, been a fan since you were competing in tournaments. Just a thought on that initial spell bloat topic. Final Fantasy 14 did something that I hated at first but am starting to see the benefits. They made PvP instance classes different than their PVP counterparts. Reduced spell count and specialized the ones you had for PVP specific scenarios. Absolutely love it now, would definitely help Blizz balance stuff as well without having to worry about its affects outside of arenas/bgs

[@amdownzintel]

button bloat is a thing. I think every class is different as far as if it feels too much or not. Playing DH you feel like you have everything you need and yet you don't have that many buttons.

[@SOS51able]

I play WoW for the raiding and do my weekly keys for gear. Every time I do pvp its solely because its worth my time to get a conquest piece early on in a season and would taper off quickly once upgrades didn't exist. While I was pvping it was hard but it was a lot of fun. I know pvp and pve gearing has been greatly improved on for the overall playerbase but I loved S1 Shadowlands cause it made sense in my head that if you were exceptional in one area of the game you would hit max ilvl in pve and if you were exceptional in the 3 main areas (Dungeons, Raid and PvP) you'd do that but faster. High end PvE players obviously hated having bis in pvp and pvp players hated being outgeared by people grinding dungeons (which should never be a thing) but in my head it all made sense.

[@toaster13666]

When it comes to the amount of spells, i think 15 is good. Reasoning: Key Mapping. Buttons most players can comfortably reach: 1-5, q, e, r, t, f, g, That's 11 button. Making 4-6 more difficult to reach buttons like Shift+XYZ should be enough.

[@Moarlatz]

I believe I have the solution to balance out the obnoxious short CC spamming, and it's this. Only primary CC should receive DR, meaning fear/poly/cyclone/etc, should be able to land 3 times in a row, then the target becomes immune, for example (8,6,4,0-immune, then the 15 sec reset timer). Instant CC/annoying interrupts, should put that CC category into immune with only ONE use (Not 3), for example (3,0,0,0-immune then the 15 sec reset timer).

[@bii2176]

For me as mostly a PvEr that dipped a bit into pvp (only like 1800 peak 3s lol) the main issue i struggled with was to feel that I was setting myself up to be able to improve and actually be good I had to completely revamp my binds+UI for pvp all the 123+target macros are so vastly superior to clicking on frames, once i'd have that set up it was okay but then I'd feel locked to pvp as jumping between was so much work, once I did this I'd just sit in 30min+ shuffle queues until I got bored and gave up.

[@rambinhuu]

I have friends who started playing WoW recently. They have been playing for a month and absolutely love PvP. I help them with the basics because I'm not the best PvP player, but they are having fun so far. Maybe it's more about the people than the content.

[@branyawn]

The number of spells doesn't bother me personally. It is the feeling of having binds to focus targets 1,2,3. Tab or target 1,2,3 and have CC binds for targets 1,2,3. This inflates the button bloat to another level and has little to no use outside a singular mouseover cc/interrupt in PvE content.

[@LuisMiyrz]

Unfortunately people don’t have set timers or mechanics, and you never know when they’re going to pop certain CDs, you can only assume and prepare. Hence the 123 macros.

[@branyawn]

@@LuisMiyrz I get that. The point isn't the purpose but how it is a gateway. If people are feeling like the number of spells they have is too much, then the expectation for 123 macros just inflated that number.

[@SmokerFace12]

22:45 During end of WoD: Honor gear 700 > 720ilvl in combat Conquest 710 > 730ilvl in combat. This was great, I remember getting the 2 set from PvP for Destro lock to do challenge mode PvE dungeons 😂 Luring PvE'ers into PvP is a healthy thing.

[@BasedChadman]

For me, it's that I actually feel like a tank until I hop into a bg and get nuked faster than a dps

[@Farris2K]

If you want to simplify and make barrier to entry lower then as a generality every class should have 4 dmg abilities (rotational), 2 defensives, 2 cc, 2 dmg modifiers, then maybe a couple abilities for class/spec identity, whether thats dmg or defensives or cc. In total like 10-15 buttons usable during battle. My bars are currently setup for 8 rotational, 4 dmg modifiers, 8 cc, 4 defensive, and 8 "utility" which usually end up being movement/cleanse/dispel/party buff. That's 32 abilities that most of my classes track, though all of those don't always get used.

[@lehzera7311]

Why not, regarding Honor gear and maybe Conquest gear. Just apply PvP Missives to each piece. Or have a little switch that selects the secondary stat you want. On every piece. That way you only need one set of gear per character that can change easily when swapping specs/loadouts etc. Make the Conq and Honor gear a little closer in ilvl like you said. But maybe has small addtions like extra gem slots/industructable, way higher PvE ilvl. Quality of life stuff with a little extra power.

[@GodlyNoodle]

I feel like I prog so slowly, theres so much class, spec and general information you constantly have to stay up to date with, then theres the important stuff like watching for enemy and teammate cds, cc, drs and often experience gaps.

[@BasedChadman]

Conquest gear should just be gone. Make honor gear scale up, and get rid of the gear gap in general.

[@sloppiipapi5648]

CC chains were massive in Vanilla as well. In fact a lot of the time if you got a HoJ to the face and your pvp trinket didn't remove stuns and nobody dispelled you, you were just done. But it was also very very simple at it's core compared to now.

[@Tkzlol]

As someone who mainly raids for CE/M+ title and pvps around the 2200-2400 range, my biggest complaint is the sparks. If you're in any competitive guild there is no way you're crafting either of your pvp items until maybe 4-5+ weeks in. This pretty much forces you to play a 2nd character of the same class, or it gimps your pve gear from the lack of crafted gear you'll have access to early on. I'm sure it's possible to play without the crafted pvp gear, but as a caster playing without precog would be incredibly annoying/unfun to do.

[@VampireLordNosferatu]

Hey Vanruki, While i was watching this and we got to the gearing questions, and solutions, I agreed with your statement that gearing is currently the easiest it has ever been, the issues actually comes down to player choice. one of the things i have noticed every PvP'er forgets that's so critical for me personally, is the option on how the gear progression works depending on your preferred method of play style. At the Start of a season, when the gearing wheel turns, the first few weeks or even whole seasons are so critical. to gear choice, things Like Vault & Crafted gear are HUGE derails from gear progression. Take this example. I am a Mythic Raider & High Score M+ Player with M+ by far being the best content for me. playing with small groups of friends, fits the ability to PvP well, so why not? Well Week 1, PvPs are hoping for a Vault weapon, one of the biggest costs, or Chasing Tier items, but as a PvE main i need to take an item that is NOT PvP, this 1. puts me already behind from first reset, So by Week 7 Most PvP'er now have full conquest gear 2pc crafted gear, and tier. and I'm stuck with 6 vendor purchased pieces since I'm limited by conquest cap each week. As a Lower skilled PvP'er i say lower skilled but have previously had ratings of upto 2300. back in a time where M+ did not exist/vault etc. Gearing is as easy as it has even been, but the requirement of choice makes the 'barrier' to entry on a fair and level playing field wildly out of whack. The nature of pugs in this regard makes it even worse and compounds every piece of missing gear and every point of missing rating for both forms of content, Now all - but many want to take the best players available and/or there friends to content, and as such your less likley to invite a person into a group with it be arena m+ RBG raids etc. simple due to a scan of their gear/score. and that takes investment of time. if im spending the first 2-3 weeks playing M+ then where do i get time to get rating in arena, So im and 50% of the conquest gear to everyone else, lower rating by comparison. Is there a solve for this i don't know, but its something that should be discussed in greater detail

[@SmilePecoSmile]

I started casually PvPing this week and I must say the worst part of the whole experience for me has been sitting in queue. When my queues take longer than the match I'm playing, I feel like something is amiss.

[@ABoyd1852]

I only play WoW to PvP. Ive been playing since April of 2005. I havent stepped into a raid since LK. 90% of my playtime is bg's. Ive played tens of thousands of bgs. I prefer those over arena bc of the bigger team sizes and playing the bg objective. Arenas are ok, but its much more fun to stealth into the flagroom and burn down an EFC for a win in the last minute of the bg or ninja a node that turns the tide of the game. Thats what I enjoy.

[@rickyjenkins5501]

I usually PVE for 2 seasons, take a break for 3rd season, casually PVP season 4(2-3hours a week MAYBE). I was 506 pvp ilvl playing disc. Friday-Sunday 3 hours in total. 0cr-1700cr in 2s and 524pvp ilvl. I’d say it’s pretty easy even when the mmr is like 1900, gearing was fast, not too complex. I heal, I damage, I CC, I run, I hold onto my trinket for dear life.