I Cheated in Pro Racing E-sports... and got away

[@seP4]

welcome acc players. it's 2024 and every racing game still has the same issue votes based on comments: A: 6 votes - 7% B: 26 votes - 30% C: 25 votes - 28% D: 31 votes - 35% the cheated clip is: B best explanations were provided by @pamani1234 and @justagyraffe. B has a lower tire slip ratio compared to the rest. C has more tire temperature and suspension travel suggesting the car being pushed harder, and yet B and C times are almost the same not all the reasons were correct though, for example in-game timer being out of sync is a problem with forzatech engine

[@R6...850]

i got it

[@snowtijger933]

@@R6...850same u could def see it

[@Delimon007]

I knew my eyes weren't lying to me :)

[@justagyraffe]

Woo! I'm glad I was able to catch it.

[@Unfoundrumors]

It's the turning response that did it for me, it instantly drew my eye to it on the turn in/turn out with how well it followed the line

[@liambrotherton]

Former ENASCAR iRacing Coca Cola driver here. When you finish in the top 3 of a Coke Series race, iRacing always pulls your telemetry files and they can ask any driver no matter the finish for their files after the race. From what I can tell being in that space for almost 10 years iRacing has had minimal cheating but I'm sure there were some bad apples in the years before iRacing implemented required telemetry checks ~5 years ago.

[@seP4]

thats a lot better than most other tournaments, although there are still ways around it: if the data is not recorded in realtime through a server, it opens up the opportunity for tampering the files and im not sure if this data is publicly available, so we have to trust whoever checks these files to be experienced enough (and have trusted reference file available) even after all of that, you could probably still get away if you only add a very small amount of boost

[@Delimon007]

@@seP4 You actually can't tamper with the files because you can check to see if they are the originals. It's something you would only know to check if you know how to though but it's how things are verified for authenticity if they are provided for evidence for the courts for example.

[@LukasM55]

In ACC SRO GTWC we had to post the Telemetry as well, but I always wondered if they were actually checking them😂

[@Delimon007]

@@LukasM55 Eh, they can just use graphs to check and see if anything is off with them and compare them to a baseline. It wouldn't take that long.

[@MrKillerToad]

How many peak guys got banned for obvious cheating? And one is still on the service... lol But cheating on iracing is superrrr hard to detect, because easy anti cheat is useless, and as long as you're not obvious about it, there is no way for anyone to know. Example would be that video from last year with Justis at indy oval, guy was obviously cheating; but then you run into someone in any open race that just has toooo much speed, but no way to prove if it's skill, or if they're cheating. If their irating is low and they're just leaving the field at Vegas in a 10 lap run, they're probably doing something not right... but seeing a 6-8k guy leave the field and it raises no eyebrows.

[@Spherz]

PTG lookin hella jealous rn

[@seP4]

lived long enough to become the villain

[@chybaignacy5368]

SP4 learned from the best

[@Spherz]

🗣

[@LuisDebs-Mallar]

#SepiSP4 PTG

[@johnny8040]

Biri biri BAN BAN 😂

[@JSRJohn]

You are a proper chad for doing this video. In 2020 I raced in Forza's biggest pro tournament that year, Le Mans Esports Series, and it had a long-suspected cheater compete (I'd say nearly all of the top 30 believe this player cheats in one distinct way you show in this video). They finished very high too, scoring thousands of dollars. Funny that they've set crazy LB times for many years yet never *ever* turned up to a ForzaRC or lan event, only this one (a virtual event). Person has had multiple accounts banned over the years but has always come back with new accounts and still plays to this day. Appreciate you making this video, hope it spurs action from studios (we'll keep dreaming)

[@RZM_Valkyrie]

Hmmm 🤔

[@ynk-4372]

Boost Syndicate ?

[@rosaria8384]

Sadly, it spurred action but in the wrong way. Instead of improving based on this, they banned him and stole him of his game that he paid $100 for, and got backlash from the community as a result.

[@martin-pz6ds]

@@rosaria8384 awww poor cheater got banned? :(

[@rosaria8384]

@@martin-pz6ds jokes on you, I don't play forza anymore

[@bb_bb_]

Bro gave us homework 😂

[@FakeJeep]

from my knowledge of FPS cheats you can also toggle it to a hotkey... so that 1% boost you could literally only use when you're cornering, or think you need it. That is how some /competitive/ players use aimbot and wallhack in FPS games by toggling it on/off randomly instead of having it going 100% of the time.

[@sts7958]

exactly ans if you are a good players, and a smart one ans you decide to cheat you will be so powerful even with this 1% boost

[@Kerto]

That would look more sus on the graph tho

[@Kurosaka]

@@Kerto not really unless you have track mania level telemetry with extreme detail and looking you wont notice it

[@FakeJeep]

@@Kerto Not really... and with macros it could be tied to throttle or steering input too. x amount of throttle and the boost applies, x amount of steering and the same. 1% or I'd say even 3% would be indistinguishable from the normal boost people get from higher FPS in Forza. Since literally in this game the higher your FPS the faster you go.

[@2for99cents]

@@priyapepsi it’s the pride flag for cops.

[@ESVGriffin]

Lol, this is such a well timed video considering some the the debates that have gone on in the FM7 community recently about certain players

[@zross9]

Quiet you Rocket League hacker!

[@JSRJohn]

Griffin the king no vibration hacker of Nordschliefe

[@SGR_Blackout]

Didn't expect to see you in the comment section lad

[@ZachTheOne]

pleasant seeing you here sir lol

[@danielmcleod1368]

Coming from known hacker Mr. Get the Dog himself

[@concreteetch]

This is the quality journalism we need, thank you for your hard work

[@ThinkAboutVic]

It's interesting that out of all racing games with competitive e-sports, Trackmania of all games is the gold standard for anti-cheating measures. Deterministic game engine, replay files that include both the car position and the player inputs, and many more stuff under the hood like analysing the frequency of the inputs. Sure it's the simplest game out of all of them but the fact that Nadeo, a (relatively) small company with a budget for their game that doesn't even compare to games like iRacing and FM7, have managed to make an anticheat that hands out beats all the other competitive racing games is wild.

[@ZulfichMK]

Also Trackmania (United Forever) is never cracked for some reason xD truly the gold standard.

[@toptextbottomtext3062]

"Everybody's on -speed hacks- steroids" - Nate Diaz

[@ZeroNeedsCoffee]

Had no clue people played racing games competitively this is so cool

[@Shftrz]

Yea, most of these competitions for racing are small despite how small the racing community is compared with other game genres

[@Shftrz]

The small in this case is the number of events available I meant

[@Delimon007]

The thing is, you're either in the podiums or you make nothing so average (by average I mean drivers that are in the top but are average drivers of the best of the best) aren't likely to show up at all unlike IRL where people are paid a yearly salary. If you aren't going to win it's kind of a waste of time.

[@comdrive3865]

Wait till you hear about Gran Turismo Academy

[@Shftrz]

@COM DRIVE ohh shit. How did I forget about GT Academy. That was a serious one

[@romie-777]

im going to guess its clip B. the only thing i notice that makes it slightly more suspicious than other is how the car has faster corner exit and corner speeds mid-corner. clip d is also a viable option since the car turns into the corner slightly earlier than the other ones

[@RealLeskot]

agree.

[@destrudot]

wow this guy's so analytical im sure he's fast when racing

[@romie-777]

@@destrudot im not lmao, i have skill issues 😭

[@username.]

​@@romie-777 hi rammie 👋

[@Spherz]

W opinion fr

[@kanchingyg]

Probably the best youtube has recommended me in about 6 months or so. Great topic and scripting, subscribed.

[@SlowToPro]

Some of the more serious sim racing leagues actually do require drivers to submit their telemetry data for each race.

[@m-seb]

Coming from competitive Counter-Strike the lack of security in racing games is just laughable. Every online tournament in CSGO demands players to locally record demos of their matches, which at 128 tick often go past 100 MB in size. In case someone has suspicions of cheating the accused player needs to upload the demo, which can be watched by all the other players and the tournament organizers, failure to upload the demo will give the win by default to the opposing team (and likely some penalty in the league). A major scandal broke out over a bug that allowed the coach to place his spectator camera on a single point of their choosing, this allowed the coach to keep watch on an area even if no friendly players are there. This sparked a major investigation that lasted a few months as a committee watched like seven or eight years of old demos to determine who used that bug. In the end a lot of people were banned. For major events they should just eat the storage cost and force demo recordings.

[@justagyraffe]

My best guess is going to be Clip B is the cheater. I'm basing this entirely off of telemetry numbers, NOT including lap times/splits. I ran some initial numbers, and it seems like Clip B has more grip at higher accelerations across the board. I'm going to create a program to do a full analysis and do a write up below...

[@justagyraffe]

Well, here's the results: I wanted to be able to compare acceleration vs grip across the whole race for each take. I would think that would be the most concrete evidence of "grip" manipulation possible. A car with more grip would be able to keep more grip at higher accelerations across the entire race, leading to a statistical difference that wouldn't be affected by lap times/individual drivers. I wrote a program to analyse the acceleration and tire slip (grip) values across each point in the telemetry and come up with an overall "score" for each race. This should be the most concrete way to judge this, as I haven't looked at the clips nor the lap times for each clip. The scores came out to: Clip 1: 13.447 *Clip 2: 13.823* Clip 3: 13.617 Clip 4: 13.582 This supports my initial guess that Clip 2 is the grip adjusted run.

[@boltez6507]

​@@justagyraffemind sharing program source?

[@adumplayz]

It seems like the simplest face value solution would be to take in the exact same inputs as the drivers using the source engine and see if there are any differences. Though as you said in the video the exact same inputs may still lead to different outputs so we would have to find a work-around and improve the engine. Otherwise it would be unsurprising if there some kind of hidden mathematical solution in the telemetry logs to detect cheaters. This seems like a really interesting idea to look into in the future

[@guillemieres]

I’ve been looking at the data sheets, and after analyzing a little, here’s my conclusion: Before I show the results I want to clarify that my analysis is almost 100% based on telemetry, since I think it is where I have the most chance of finding anomalies. Find the cheater Lap A -> 2:01.660 Lap B -> 2:01.604 Lap C -> 2:01.589 Lap D -> 2:01.676 1. First method This will be a comparison of the throttle and the brake usage between lap A and the other 3. Very big differences could indicate some types of cheats. Lap A/Lap B throttle usage: -14172 | Lap A/Lap B brake usage: -618 Lap A/Lap C throttle usage: -4964 | Lap A/Lap C brake usage: 5418 Lap A/Lap D throttle usage: -10425 | Lap A/Lap D brake usage: 1485 Given the results, I can't conclude anything, but we can give some rounds more scope than others. From the first moment, the differences between the lap A and the B have called my attention. The fact that much more accelerator is used and only a little more brake in B, and that the difference in times is only 59 thousandths in favor of B, makes me think two scenarios. The first, and the one that I am sure is that there is a big difference in the racing line, which causes these differences in telemetry and not in the times. However, the second scenario would lead to accept that the lap A is in which the car would be "boosted", based on the fact that having a greater grip you can plot better and make less use of the accelerator to get the times. 2. Second method This will also consist in comparing some data between the 4 laps. In this case the comparison will be on difference on tyre data. The first one is the total tyre slip from the 4 tyres: Lap A -> TTS = 14272 | Lap B -> TTS = 13825 Lap C -> TTS = 14549 | Lap D -> TTS = 13851 In this second case I will be looking at the initial tyre temperatures: TFL TFR TRL TRR Lap A -> 121.18 121.23 121.93 121.93 Lap B -> 121.18 121.23 121.93 121.93 Lap C -> 121.30 121.33 121.94 121.94 Lap D -> 121.18 121.23 121.93 121.93 These results made me change my mind. The fact initial tyre temperatures in laps A, B and D are the same, and in lap C are higher is suspicious. Also, you can see the total tyre slip, where C has the highest value, what could indicate more confidence on the car because of this little boost. But if you consider what you said about the amount of time gained, which was of 0.2 per minute, and you take the lap times, lap C is nearly 0.4 faster in a 2 minutes lap than the 3 other, which make me go for C. IM NOT AN EXPERT, JUST A STATISTICS STUDENT AND RACING FUN, I TRULLY THINK I MIGHT BE WRONG BUT I JUST WANNA TRY.

[@Delimon007]

I think this makes sense and others have said that data wise, C stands out more than the others which means the engine is likely behaving different here.

[@brianng9765]

This shows that even with the knowledge, it's still not as easy to tell who actually cheated

[@Th3Cure]

Turn10: I ban sepi Sepi: ok now I'm gonna cheat

[@Adaptivee]

Something that makes detecting cheats even harder is the difference that setups can make, you can mask a small grip/top speed advantace by having the excuse of a better setup. The reason everyone is suspicious of Thomas Rohnaar in F1 esports is that he seems to have better minumum speed AND top speed than everyone else, which implies that he's running a lower downforce setup while also having more grip than a high downforce setup. Setups are kept private and arent checked by admins which means that no one can figure out how he can achieve those speeds/grip levels, another major flaw in making sure everyone is on a level playing field.

[@glockmat]

Downforce isnt the be all, end all of setups, you can have mechanical grip, and if him found a mickey mouse setup this can also be at play, ACC has a lot of these Mickey Mouse setups, where somethings that makes absolutely no sense IRL like 4° of toe or camber, so he could theoretically have a setup that allows him to run low DF, while also having a shit load of mechanical grip. But seeing the clips, Im gonna call my theory BS, unless F1 games are retarded with their engines and allow for REALLY stupid setups

[@Adaptivee]

@@glockmat The problem with that is that his teammates, which have access to the same setups, are nowhere near him in terms of pace. The gap between teammates in qualy is usually a tenth at worst, while in his case he's constantly up 2-3 tenths on them. Also, teams in F1 esports have multiple people constantly trying to find the best setups and tweaks, so it seems unplausible that he found something in the setup that makes him have those grip/top speed advantages on every single track. Ohh and I forgot about the hotlap world records, he improved on existing world records by TENTHS with totally normal setups, which you can access since they are published together with the laptime. If he is that good he will dominate on F1 23 and shut the doubters up, only time will tell.

[@glockmat]

@@Adaptivee I called my own hypothesis BS, Ive seen the clips, its kinda obvious, and he is using quite a stupid amount, like 10% or smth, its not the 1-2%

[@Hords]

The one thing about this video that impresses me is the fact that you were able to launch the game on PC without it crashing the moment you loaded into the garage area lmao.

[@Delimon007]

They fixed a lot of that thankfully LOL!

[@Hords]

@@Delimon007 FIXED?! 🤣 lmfao that shit is still a broken ass mess to this day.

[@Delimon007]

@@Hords Yes, it is broken, yes, it still crashes and has other issues in lobbies, I've never had a crash during start up in years. The game has a lot of issues but that hasn't been one of them for a long time.

[@miji0227]

Not expecting the new Forza to do much about this.

[@AnshulYadav-zc9uq]

They changed their team right? good thing or bad?

[@superninja252]

@@AnshulYadav-zc9uq the team that changed was the Horizon 2023 is Motorsport

[@usonumabeach300]

Makes me wonder if there aren't nefarious and/or criminal organizations out there using competitive gaming tournaments for money laundering or other financial crimes.

[@SALEENS7GTR5]

100% there are. It's unregulated and volatile. Apparently, organizers care so little they can't even recognize cheating is in their games, so wanting to tackle criminal organizations is just something you look the other way about, or have no idea exists, because no one is looking.

[@Delimon007]

Plenty have already been caught doing so. . .

[@namesii1880]

They are, but through gambling and matchfixing.

[@comdrive3865]

@@SALEENS7GTR5 To be perfectly honest, the people who cheat usually are the type of person organisers are looking to pay to begin with. Cheaters tend to be more entertaining for teh viewers.

[@proper9095]

Absolutely! I've been making it my side job to compile evidence for this and it is actually way worse than you could imagine. Something needs to be done, not only because it's unfair, but also because it is extremely deceptive and definitely can cause emotional damage to someone who's legit trying to compete

[@existentialselkath1264]

When forza can barely stop simple corner cutting level cheating, how does anyone expect them to care enough to stop cheaters putting any actual effort in.

[@rickgenie]

How would they stop corner cutting cheating

[@existentialselkath1264]

@@rickgenie is this a serious question? The solution is hardly novel. Penalties. Go off track, get time added to your lap, forced slowdown, or even pitstop. If that's too complicated, forza used to use sticky grass (or asphalt). It's not perfect, or realistic, but if you got all wheels off the track you'd slow down significantly. Even the smallest cuts were often not worthwhile.

[@Delimon007]

@@rickgenie On some maps like YAS they can literally just put a barrier about a half a car length away to prevent cuts and cheating. . . Most can be solved by adding such simple barriers. . .

[@durackhie1089]

dude, you literally killed my desire to buy a game wheel to participate in competitive races for prizes. I never thought that cheats can be used in racing games - this is crazy, and I have been playing games almost my whole adult life. I'm sad

[@Schneizel00]

Same, im a hardcore pc gamer and this is news to me despite being very familiar with cheats in all other genres

[@awakeandwatching953]

@@Schneizel00 the big sims on pc check telemetry after big event races, sim racing doesn't have the same issues to the same extent that things like forza do.. not to say there isn't any cheating but when you have e sports teams run by f1 teams things are a bit more serious.. accept in the official f1 games lol but im not even sure if they are considered full sims my advice get the wheel, its so much fun then get asseto corsa, follow the easy modding instructions and get on lfm for a taste of properly managed competitive racing in the style of iracing with out the insane cost

[@Kenpai_TDG]

finally a new video

[@seP4]

a new final video*

[@tandris1085]

@@seP4 why final??? are u quitting???

[@picklehunterlaxifi5603]

@@tandris1085 it’s a joke mate

[@Kenpai_TDG]

@@seP4 lmao suuure

[@SmartAssBaboon]

I cant even bear to watch the video because its all so crystal clear for me. Most esports have zero integrity, including most LAN events. Its just too easy to cheat and the risk-reward ratio is just too good for cheaters. They are cheating for hundreds of thousands of dollars with little chance of getting caught. Private cheats, hardware cheats in mouses, keyboards, gamepads, wheelbases etc.

[@ESV_Voided]

I'm going to say Clip D was using the 1% grip hack. Is the only one that is keeping almost the same speed around the corners as the rest but is also staying on a tighter line while maintaining that speed. Can tell the most by watching turn 1 at .25 speed. All the other cars went wider and kept about the same average speed but none of them stuck as close to the inside as clip D car did.

[@tudorgm]

Great info! Your tunes in FH5 were just great :D

[@alecpitts6843]

all of this can stop with the telemetry data alone. There is a physical imitation on every single input and output a car can achieve, all they need to do is program an Ai to Flag drivers that appear to be breaking the laws of in-game physics, by any margin, and then have it human reviewed. nothing else is necessary.

[@SleekHeroo]

Wait if thats what it takes to stop cheating. It should be really simple right? Then why the fuck are they not doing it?

[@alecpitts6843]

@@SleekHeroo because while it would be simple, it would cost a ton of money to have an AI that complex watching every driver at every moment in time. likely more money than iracing recieves tbh

[@rosaria8384]

AI training with cheated data takes a lot of time to get right though. We still need manual detection

[@alecpitts6843]

@@rosaria8384 manually check the outliers and let AI handle the rest.

[@AlexFrush]

0:37 Wooo thats me :) Fantastic video mate

[@shogunmyoung9932]

I never thought of this.... Either way, I hope you're doing well. I'm not sure if you'll ever be back on FH5, but I appreciate what you did with these videos. Also, quick questtion: Why are the Mangrove times and tunes deleted, if you know?

[@seP4]

pleb stopped updating his sheet. there is another one in developement docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1T8qOgPJFDuAZq1gKUPTV6MTkJlIgwUZQISz3lrtKENg/edit?usp=sharing

[@shogunmyoung9932]

@@seP4 OH cool. Thanks for the information. These sheets helped me a lot. Appreciate them.

[@shogunmyoung9932]

@botopedia In short, it is a Google sheet that shows the performance of different cars for Dirt Racing. Mangrove Scramble is used as the standard as it is considered to be the most balanced dirt track in the game.

[@TheMousPotato]

I’m gonna keep petitioning for SP4 to reshare his tunes. 😄 Quality work, quality content. Many of us are good non cheating drivers who enjoy a tune that’s good to drive and is competitive even if we don’t win every race.

[@StufffTV]

Damn I wish you were a consultant for the devs, what a nice take on cheating. Hopefully videos like these will start discussions. The difference from you to another youtubers is that you are not focusing on the drama, but on the problem itself. You are one of a kind on the racing community sepi, please keep posting 🙏

[@emiliochavez2135]

As a rocket league player i found it hilarious that u used a sunlesskhan video when the game got invaded by bots xD

[@TheBlueWanderer2000]

This would be the last Forza video ever that SP4 would make. Thanks for the memories.

[@TTorresmo]

I used to organize Nordschleife races in FM7. Always did fixed tunes for balance, so car X would be as close to car Y in performance. There was a VNX racer who would win all races I organized, no matter what car he chose, no matter how fast the other players were. Then, one of the races I made a very powerful Muscle car, one that if you went full throttle, it would spin, no matter what gear you were in. Strangely enough, when checking the telemetey later, I could see at launch, for example, we were both at 100% throttle and while my tires were at 2000% friction, his tires would never go past 700%. The first corner he would be waaay ahead of me already, so I confronted him. All he did was make jokes about me in the Brazillian community, since a lot of those are balls deep into this scheme of making it look like cheats do not exist. That is one of the reasons I gave up on playing this game seriously and making content for it... Thank you for making this video and making it public!

[@TTorresmo]

And no, he wasn't using TCS

[@qualitydrive2207]

@@TTorresmo You mind telling me who this person is as I am currently in VNX.

[@glockmat]

Assim, setups fixos são uma daqlas coisa que soa legal, mas no geral não ajuda. Setups podem te deixar mais rápido, mas qm usa eles ainda precisa mexer pra deixar o carro do seu jeito, se vc me der um carro que tem muito Understeer, eu vou ir 4 segs mais lento, não importa muito como eu dirija, eu não consigo lidar com under Eu sou em torno de 5 segs mais lento que os pros, e não me importo realmente, mas me da um carro que seja meio psicótico com a traseira que eu dirijo ele, não vou ser rápido, mas eu sobrevivo com ele, me da um carro q lembra under q eu to fudido Não quer dizer q eu sou um trapaceiro quando alguém me da um carro novo, so qr dizer q esse não é o carro que eu dirijo Meu Sim eh o ACC, nos Audis eu vou ir legal, consigo alguma consistencia, me da a 456 ou 992 e eu to morto, não por falta de tentativa, eu fiz de tudo que pude com esses carros, mas eu não conseguiria dirigir eles bem. Então se vc trava carro ja me eh um problema, me trava setup também e se não for algo que consiga usar, vc me mata Pelo que eu conheço de muita gente, a situação é parecida com muitos, se vc trocar o setup ou o carro eles perdem 1 seg no mínimo e a consistência pra uma corrida

[@ZachTheOne]

VNX ZachThe1 here, Vanatix eSports is my team. First off we only recruit top tier talent. So if they're on VNX they're one of the best. I'm top 50 on most tracks, front page in the world on a few, and I'm the slowest driver on the team. I don't know who you played with but a lot of our guys are on console, locked to 60-120 FPS and no mods. T10 checks boards and bans people who're seen cheating and no one on VNX has ever been banned or suspected of cheating by the community. Since you're in Brazilian communities I assume it was Hexor or CODCAOS, but like myself CODCAOS is a Nordschleife all star. Honestly if you look up most Nordschleife boards from A to X we have times and tunes up there, especially in A and GT homologated. Replay telemetry is not reliable, as stated in the video the replay only saves basic telemetry. If you're looking at HIS telemetry on YOUR replay, it's going to read laggy and wrong. Trust me I'm a steward for TORA, an SI will have 3 different views of the incident and depending on a person's connection to the host, what they see changes. One video there's no contact, another video there's heavy contact, and another they tap twice before a car spins. All depends on the latency and how the came guesses where people are until it receives data on where they actually are. The only telemetry I trust for tuning is live telemetry in free play. I'll either clip it to review the numbers or stream it and have someone watch for me.

[@glockmat]

@@ZachTheOne Couple problems mate, firstly you are being waaaay too confrontational, if @TTorresmo has any evidence, you can't simply dismiss his accusations because VNX is exclusive to "top talent", a smart cheater can pass as top talent. Secondly tagging yourself as VNX isn't really a challenge, someone can just create another club and use the VNX tag and a very similar name, like Vanatix e-Sports Even if he has no proof, asking the accused party to some runs with a similar setup to what Torresmo provided in that occurence should take 5 minutes and would clean the image of your team entirely

[@k7y]

the guy who exposed cheaters in Tarkov got rekt by the community because community is absolutely brain dead.

[@aper50n42]

I’m a competitive Minecraft ice boat racer. I use my crafting tables to get the telemetry. I’m starting a Esports league for this EXTREMELY competitive environment

[@xX_Gravity_Xx]

If I drop my settings in most sims I gain about 3 tenths on average on most tracks. This is the difference between 60 - 75 fps and 120-200 fps. I can't tell the difference AT ALL physically. It looks the same. It feels the same. But in most sims, the car becomes more stable, and is more responsive to techniques like trail braking. I'm a big Nordschleife nerd. I can run consistent 6:20's-6:30's around Touristenfharten in a GT3 car, with between 55-60 fps in AC. This jumps massively to low 6:20's/high 6:18-6:19's with a framerate locked at 75 fps. Again, personally, I cannot tell the difference, and the laps feel almost identical. If I then turn around and drop my settings massively, and lock the framerate to 200 fps, game looking like it came from a PS1 demo jam disc, I can run 6:13's, consistent, and in the Z4, I managed a 6:11. That's ridiculous. And this effect is worse across other sims. I used to be deep into rFactor 2, and the amount of vehicle stability to be gained from a higher fps is phenomenal. Likely the cause of the "on rails" argument about the sims' physics. Now, I play at a locked 65 fos and enjoy it. But you'd better believe that if I decided to go competitive, I'd push that up and lower my graphics settings. I say all of this to say that it's kind of sad that this is where we are. With money being a huge determining factor, when that's one of the reasons simracing is what it is. Also, if it is so easy to gain time with next to no effort "legitimately", then I can only imagine how easy it must be to just go full blown cheat mode and increase your grip by a percent or two, and start dominating. Those tenths WILL add up pretty quickly, if you're consistent. I wish this weren't the case, but here it is. I think we should all take the top times on these sims with a grain of salt. That said, some sims have much cleaner, and less fps/hardware related leaderboard times. GT7 as a good example of this, as it runs on a select couple of systems, and the performance between each doesn't really change. These are just my two cents though. I think that forcing framerate limits could be a good starting point.

[@Delimon007]

They can fix it by setting the engine at a cap and having it run properly but hey, what do we know? Locking the internal engine FPS is for plebs!

[@AhmadGalalYT]

1:38 Forza 7's replays during its launch 😂 cars used to fly and they didn't even have an accelrating sound

[@seP4]

no engine sound still happens. replay system is a mess in this game

[@tropfen]

Concerning [35]: Whilst it is a nice mention it is known that some physics engines use fixed point arithmetic instead of floating point arithmetic in critical parts to mitigate that issue. It is a trade of between performance and precision though hence the use in specific areas of the engine.

[@SmokePudding]

I love your commentated videos

[@ninjacharlie7729]

"Let's make light of the problem by becoming part of the problem." Great logic.

[@iqmiz]

I think option C. Higher average tire temperature by 1 degree than the other clips, which may be due to increased traction.

[@MarkiusFox]

That could just mean the driving style and suspension is more aggressive towards grip, resulting in more scrubbing and higher temperature.

[@Pamani_]

Clip A : 196.36° Clip B : 196.60° Clip C : 197.58° Clip D: 195.35° But it's not as prononced if you focus only on the last half of the runs: only 0.64° bewteen A and C.

[@ADRIAAN1007]

I stopped playing competitively and in multiplayer races. Now, I only race against myself.

[@Dogzero33]

Clip D since the the car has the same lap time while also the sloppiest driving/least overall road width usage. One major thing I noticed though is that all of the clips are not perfect laps so each corner or section always has time to be gained if driven properly... essentially all of these clips are bad data and trying to see which one is the cheater is always going to be difficult but even more so the less precise the driving becomes. I originally was going to choose A since the overall apex top speeds was highest in Clip A but Clip B was holding the most of the time best racing line with similar speeds.

[@seP4]

while the laps are nowhere near perfect, slightly different lines can result in similar times in forza

[@Delimon007]

@@seP4 ^ The keyword here is "in forza." In an actual racing sim you would obviously be punished, but Forza does not punish you for bad lines much and it's one of the things that heavily turns me off about this game.

[@sergeynefediev6971]

@@seP4 then we are talking about nothing. Who cares what cheat do u use if even racing line doesn’t matter

[@Delimon007]

@@sergeynefediev6971 Racing line does matter, it's just that small variations in the line aren't heavily punished like they are in actual sim games. In an actual sim game, diving into the corner to do defensive driving is slower than braking in a straight line then trail braking and keeping it smooth for example. A lot of this is due to the rotation of the car being far, far too high in Forza. There are certain corners where you can completely miss the corner intentionally, rotate the car and get on the throttle sooner because of the terrible physics that forza has.

[@xxfloppypillowxx]

So there are a couple of flaws in the video but I do agree with the overall premise of it. First we'll start off with the flaws: this might just be bad editing but he says "we know it's possible to avoid in simpler games" while showing GCD18 talking about Rocket League and Trackmania which both have their own huge drawbacks to how they do things. Rocket League's engine for example does not handle any amount of network latency well. If you have a lag spike at any point during play the ball becomes out of sync for you until a goal is scored even when your connection is relatively good there can be some noticeable syncing issues and rubberbanding. Also because of how the game engine works if you leave a game and comeback the engine replays the game up until that point to get you synced up which increases load time and can cause a bad pc to have lag issues when first loading into an in-progress game. Trackmania's system is much better but is flawed in it's execution. Nadeo has typically not actively pursued the cheater issue instead relying on reports as their means of detection. As a result there have been players who have used tool-assisted runs to get world records on tracks and because they were a good player to begin with the fact that they were tool-assisted was hard to prove until someone in the community wrote a program that could take the replay files and analyze them as the replay files in trackmania stores the inputs of the player to see if they were cheating or not. I don't think it should have required a community member to go out of their way to write this program in the first place but it's a pretty good system overall. How do I think they should prevent this kind of stuff in the future? Two simple changes would make it nearly impossible to get away with cheating. First change is to make it so that the top 3-10 positions' telemetry are saved to be analyzed for anomalies, depending on the computing power that it would take to save and analyze you'd need to adjust how many of the top placers you'd check. Second change which I think would go a long way to deterring people from cheating in the first place is to implement a random telemetry submission, make there be a 10% chance on any given race that your telemetry will be submitted for analyzation for anomalies. The key is that it has to be random otherwise people will just try to figure out when they're going to be tested just like they do with PEDs in sports

[@SimracingPopometer]

[34] relates to a monitor refresh rate test where a worse than average driver tries to stay on the road and with more laps necessarily goes faster. at least that one doesn't relate to physics at all. also not to take away from the rest of the video - good stuff!

[@andrew33845]

PTG Team punching the air right now

[@ventilo1825]

"If everyone is cheating, then no one is cheating" - somebody idk

[@maurolee6684]

ah yes the Faster than Light OST, pleasant music, pleasant video

[@themadlad5913]

Hey SP4, any plan on when we might get the new tuning guide? Great video btw

[@seP4]

whenever pgg restores my tunes (never)

[@glicko1952]

active simracing driver here. yes, i acknowledge this is a very big problem that no one sees, and once they see it, news spread like wildfire. anti-cheat and game engine inconsistency seems to be a forgotten topic in simracing and it seems like the directors of the developers turns a blind eye on this matter. just recently, someone cheated on a local simracing league here and got bullied very hard, but the question arises now who else are cheating? and it is a very hard question to answer, since anti-cheat is almost nonexistent in simracing

[@Portymoth]

Digging the System Shock Remake cyberspace music!

[@ZachTheOne]

VNX ZachThe1 here, Leader and Tuner @ Vanatix eSports. I appreciate the publicity and the work you're doing trying to push for competitive continuity in Forza. There's a lot of people that could be cheating, but without better tools it's impossible to point the finger. I can't wait for anti-cheat and FPS lock to be implemented, half the people complaining about cheating are probably cheating themselves. All we can do is hope Turn 10 does a good job on Forza Next. Also VNX Komi is a girl btw.

[@reguiguire]

can you define girl for us please

[@hexor6t]

great video, i will now proceed to cheat 👍

[@vnx_letz]

HUH

[@Forzurda]

Thank you Hugo!

[@minero2743]

The lack of Tone5 emoji signifies how serious this statement is

[@comdrive3865]

if you win money, you must pay.... me

[@teertaa]

Forza reddit on their way making "PSA" about sepi with this video

[@comdrive3865]

forza reddit? any reddit is a shithole lmao

[@LiljamezZz]

this is a weirdly deep rabbit hole about online racing i can almost smell the swap between the cheeks of the people racing in those tournaments

[@ObitoUchihaisgay]

I really couldnt believe there was a million dollar tournament for that Turbo game

[@GrimReap3rBF]

like the old saying, its not illegal unitl you get caught the cheated lap is clip 🅱 no matter where you pause it on the exact same race time, clip 🅱 lap time is ahead by at least .005 sec

[@rickgenie]

It’s not illegal till you get caught is only a useful and true sentiment in certain contexts. Increasing grip using hacks in racing games is illegal before anyone gets caught.

[@Delimon007]

@@rickgenie Nah they do this in F1 all the time. Then they get "caught" and remove their "cheat" and say there was no wrongdoing even when what they did violated the regulations of making the car. Sometimes it's different, in a lot of cases they ARE cheating.

[@melonmanp1240]

I’m gonna say that Clip D had the grip increase, it seems like they were more confident in some corners where the other clips struggled a little more.

[@CookSavon]

I think Clip D is the one using the hack. I had just one idea to start with : If you have more grip, you need more power, more torque to make your car move especially at the race start. So i just looked at the torque in every clip data and D seems to be the one with more.

[@saoirseislive]

The big events should be local only, same hardware and monitored computers, that way there's no advantages.

[@GolovaPomidor]

Great content man👍

[@bruuuuuhhhhhhh]

Cheating and scandals in racing games is huge, especially forza, and the devs support it, and people getting banned for nothing they thought he was cheating, even though he had proof of everything (basically he had everything in the game and almost max credits) and they thought he cheated them in, but he had won it all and grinded for weeks to get it IGT he’s been abandoned by the devs and everything they don’t wanna hear a bar of it. On the other hand, they supported cheating in legit esports forza teams and banned people who spoke out about it

[@ObjectivelyCorrectOpinion]

Love FTL music on the background!

[@grocam_]

you should dig up Austin Ogonoski previous videos, he hinted us how corrupt the online competition scene is regarding racing devs and it's connection with physics devs and high rated players, nice touch with Deus Ex music !

[@seP4]

wow such an underrated and interesting point of view. i learned that the hard way

[@therealmasaruuu]

Sepi will you be making videos on the upcoming Forza Motorsport 8?

[@seP4]

depends. need more info on the game (so far not looking promising)

[@therealmasaruuu]

@@seP4 hoping for the best

[@blerst7066]

The Forza series' physics engine ran at a fixed rate before FH5. It's almost as if the devs are actively trying to dissuade competitive play.

[@AllNightmareLong72]

Thank you for this video. Pgg and other companies do need better anti cheat tools so cheaters can be found and banned

[@AnekoF90]

Once, i found a car with an S1 class in some of those playground events, and it was set to be A class only lmao.

[@Delimon007]

I've seen this before as well but typically the drivers who are using those cheat tunes aren't even good lol

[@GraveUypo]

my solution to this was to stop playing online games. they're not even fun anyway, every since everyone switched from private lobbies hosted locally to these stupid ladder / matchmaking e-dic contests, multiplayer gaming died.

[@youravghuman5231]

The mindset in those games is to be a pro and then you can get money by entering a tournament or simply become a content creator.

[@apriliaman]

We did have about 5 drivers drivers think something isn't right.They almost were going to say something to get it looked at.

[@zemurph]

So does framerate have a noticeable impact in FM7? I've noticed a few players, even teanmates, times substantially improve after a move from xbox to PC, with no other discernible factors that might explain it

[@0Synergy]

Yes. Its been a thing since FM1 most likely. I bet if you could unlock your FPS on the old consoles and ran a few tests it would show it.

[@Delimon007]

Yes and it will be true for any racing game. Sometimes it actually speeds up your pace (like in forzas case) and in others it just simply makes everything more responsive which will make you faster. Just go look at shooters and how the best players have already tested this out and it will become quite obvious that FPS matters in pretty much any game ever up to about 100-120 where you will start to get diminishing returns.

[@1337Industries]

Noob driver here, but seasoned data scientist here. I tried doing a super quick analysis on the telemetry data but I don't have any experience dealing with this kind of data. From what I've seen, it seems that C is able to sustain a statistically significant higher speed than the other runs for a given amount of slip. It also seems to have slighty lower tire slip overall. Meaning, when pushing the car, you can keep a higher speed before you'd begin to hear your tire squeal, and get input from the wheel and behaviour of the car to let you know you've reached your limit. It could also mean that C is driving wider arcs, but I can't quite confirm that as it also appears C appears to have better rotational velocity in corners but to a less significant degree. It would make the analysis much more robust with more laps. If any of you with experience in how the grip model in Forza work, let me know if there's a better way of measuring the grip figures ;)

[@Dyoguh2]

All simracers need to see this, very good job but still simracing compare to other games is way more clean in terms of cheating online. Thank you

[@dragonnestodyssey3939]

People finding out that cheats exists even on racing games... yeah even some pro players has been caught using cheats in other genres, what a surprise huh?

[@jay-d8g3v]

What a kick to the gut. If all the cheaters got purged in the world, I wonder where all the top players would be afterwards

[@mexycannn]

theres a game from 2004 i used to play when i was little on the ps2, it was called crash ‘n’ burn. Imo the game deserves more attention.

[@CanularRadio]

Why were you using another voice ?.

[@burntpancake7132]

Did u tell the organizer of the tournament you cheated in that you cheated?

[@seP4]

not before this video went public. im banned now

[@MisledVision]

No lmao

[@dustinhughes6132]

He did not

[@genoob5843]

@@seP4 based af

[@alaric0257]

​@SP4 I'm guessing you are going to make another "this is the end of forza" video where you try to justify your actions?

[@RZM_Valkyrie]

Well well well... sure would be easy for a certain someone to do this...

[@fcraspect3382]

It's unfortunate that this video is even a thing

[@PointonMedia]

It really is a shame that people scoop to this level. Causes so much animosity throughout the community.

[@Delimon007]

@@PointonMedia I mean, it's not even just "this" community but every single competitive game ever. It doesn't mean the cheater is bad at the game as many good players cheat as well so that they can get that $$$$$. If they don't get caught then it doesn't matter.

[@PointonMedia]

@@Delimon007 yeah I get you pal. In competitions I’ve entered across different motorsport platforms there’s always one or two either top or near top players that either get caught straight away or get caught after months of investigation behind closed doors.

[@Delimon007]

@@PointonMedia Yuuuuppp, and none of that stuff gets brought to light either because it makes the company look bad.

[@SilentKillerPrince]

The solution is actually pretty simple, e-sports should only be played in a LAN, with every player in the same room with standard equipment, computer included.

[@Chanted2]

Forza is a very small game and usually not have many players playing tournaments. The map barrier probably meant nobody would be able to come

[@rosaria8384]

LAN or online, it doesn't change the fact that some games are terrible at documentation for eSports

[@ultimatedragon6988]

Cant seem to find any of your test tracks on horizon, are they all deleted?

[@robbytherob]

This type of cheating occurs in shooting games as well. Even if they activate it for 1 round out of 13, it still gave them an advantage which has a snowballing effect

[@bbb56nagisa80]

After your recent few videos about the truth behind racing games, I guess most of the major racing game devs have added your gametag or this youtube channel to the list of most "notorious" content creators. Maybe after a while you'll be banned from all racing games till 2223, lmao. Just kidding, I'm still on your side. But Sepi, have you considered opening a second channel secretly, with the content of normal gameplay or hacker police content?

[@seP4]

fh5 is not worth those types of content atm

[@bbb56nagisa80]

@@seP4 ok, i can understand what you mean.

[@akumanozero2385]

Meta police

[@TheWesman45]

I know the comment has already been posted, but B jumped out at me right away. It just looks more clean. When comparing the other three it's stands out as being TOO clean. You understeer on both A and C. While you didn't maintain the optimal line in D. Though I could see why people would think it's D. It might look like the car changes directions too quickly in the middle of the turn, but I'm betting he just blew the corner.

[@slytheuberman2184]

My boy Vanquish slaps at races, race with him alot on Forza leagues.

[@kombatqueen5068]

what happened to your FH5 tunes? did you intentionally remove them

[@seP4]

read community post

[@ArrKayCee]

It's B, idk how people voted otherwise but in the clip you gave at 5:27 it's fastest at the first and second apex by a minimum of 2kph (or mph? can't tell). No need to even download the files, just go frame by frame. The idea that 70% of people got that wrong is concerning, hopefully the people actually making calls are better at it.

[@Delimon007]

Yea, I called it out immediately after watching the first half of the laps and didn't bother with the other half because I'm lazy. Even his racing style changed to match the increased grip. It stood out to me like a sore thumb. It just goes to show you how bad some racers really are.

[@yuna-onee-chan]

im going with clip D for the cheated run, im not fully looking into it, at just a glance from looking at the first few lines of all the files and where they reach the same speed, clip d hits a speed faster than the others at an earlier point of the track in the initial start and the first number on line 7 for all the cars end at 031, clip d ends at 047, where as every other car hits that point one line later. edit: even just watching the shifting of all 4 clips, clip D gains the most speed during it, and im only 10 seconds in. albeit its very minor. but if you were to just give one run of every person in the event if they werent all in the exact same car, i wouldnt be able to tell at all. but this is my gut feeling final edit: looking at when the cars all start to go back on gas too D still has the highest speed during a turn after heavily using breaks. but i feel like all the cars still would be able to do the same thing here at 1:02 on the clips.

[@nov387]

Shooting games: "You cheated! I knew exactly it and I will ban you!!!!" Racing games: "Damn, you fast. You defo no cheat"

[@giuseppelofaro8512]

i really want to know more about the FPS thing, does it work also in iRacing?

[@seP4]

most likely. cant say for sure without proper testing

[@Hachiae]

And there goes racing online. Sick... back to shoutoku/drifting i guess

[@noosetime9423]

it shouldnt be hard to detect even 0.0001% grip increase. All you have to do is have deterministic physics engine, record *all* player inputs precisely as they happen and resimulate them. If resimulation doesn't match what happened in the game it means the player is cheating.

[@pouification]

Confused- which Forza is this? FM7 or the latest motorsport?

[@rosaria8384]

Both FM7 and FM2023 share the same issue presented here.

[@S5yn3T]

Still waiting for that updated tuning video guide that was promised 3 months ago :3

[@seP4]

i wanted to return working on if pgg restored my tunes but i underestimated their incompetence

[@johnnyjaniws5424]

PGG are complete flogs, imagine banning someone and deleting all their tunes and thus impacting all the players that used said tunes cos they didn’t like being called out on their bullshit 😂 I pray another developer makes a legitimate competitor to FH so I can play that instead

[@S5yn3T]

@@seP4 Most likely they forgot and can't be bothered restoring anything... Unless they would get pressured by a large KZbin channel or something (where's LTT for gaming when you need one) And i assume there's no way to pull out the tunes that community downloaded from their machines, and paste them to your folder, so they are "restored" locally?

[@Latinblood59]

It’s in gaming overall that cheating is a big problem. Call of Duty is struggling against cheaters too. Damn shame

[@GrumpyIan]

Basically any multiplayer game struggles with cheaters, it's just that FPS and Mobas are the 2 main ones that people cheat in.

[@BonzaELTesto]

This is why trackmania is such a superior racing game lmao