I took the Nahom Challenge - Mormon Auditor E08

[@swensonbailey]

"He taketh three days’ journey into the wilderness with his family." is still in the current version of the Book of Mormon. It's right before the start of chapter 1. I don't know why you would say it was removed.

[@MormonAuditor]

My mistake, I was looking at the heading for Chapter 1, instead of the heading for all of 1 Nephi. Thanks for correcting that.

[@swensonbailey]

@MormonAuditor I'm a believing member. I don't think the three day thing is an issue, because I believe the text can easily be read either way. You seemed to be saying, "he's reading it wrong", but both readings are equally valid. Especially when you read in between the lines when Sariah is worried that her children had "perished in the wilderness". This doesn't really make sense if they were only three days from Jerusalem. It makes more sense for them to go on a longer journey to and from Jerusalem, which would lead her to worry something happened to them "in the wilderness." The "three day journey" before chapter 1 seems to be an addition that Mormon put in. Every major book in the Book of Mormon has an opener. And when looking at the rest of the small plates, their book openers seem to be written by someone other than the author of the said book. Idk. I don't think saying "he could have had a map like this one" is good enough evidence of that happening. Also, the issue for critics is there don't seem to be positive critical witnesses claiming "I saw him studying maps", "memorizing the Bible", "studying Hebrew names", "making fake plates", etc. For me, the culmination of the evidence points to it not being naturalistically possible. If the only evidence was Lehi's journey then you would have a better argument, but all these things combined make it where I can't see him being that lucky to get so many "guesses" right.

[@lukegraven7839]

@@swensonbaileythere’s no evidence. None. It’s made up.

[@MormonAuditor]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I still disagree with that interpretation of the reading for the reasons shared in the video. And Sariah being worried is still completely valid in just a 3 day trip, especially because it's 3 days each way, plus the time it took to retrieve the plates (which is an unknown period of time). By day 7, it would have been perfectly natural for Sariah to start worrying. I didn't try to imply that Nephi wrote the header. The point I was making is that WHOEVER wrote the header seemed to think that 3 days was the time they spent in the wilderness as well, which backs up my position on the interpretation. And I agree, the map theory is not proven. But as I stated, Chad's position was "it is impossible for Joseph to have done this", so I showed how it actually is possible, which weakens the claim the church makes "It had to have come from God, there's no other explanation". Every plausible explanation further weakens that claim, so I'm going to go watch the new video Dan Vogel just released today to see what other plausible theories he has uncovered.

[@BeauMcCraney]

@@MormonAuditorYou were seeing what you wanted to see, until you were caught.

[@TomOmer42]

Wow great job! Chad is an old friend of mine and a very nice guy. It made me sad to see him doubling down on failed apologetics with his channel. Thanks for providing a clear and well researched refutation!!

[@MormonAuditor]

Thanks! He seems like a perfectly nice guy, but it seemed a bit too bold to issue a challenge like that so I couldn't resist.

[@danvogel6802]

Thanks for the plug. I liked how you handled the 3-day journey. I missed that on the map. However, I don't think "borders of the Red Sea" was the large aria you highlighted. Borders were the area between the sea and the mountains on the coast. Lehi came near the borders, and then he passed into the borders "nearer" the Red Sea. I don't think JS got Nahom from a map, because it was located near the shore, not 120 miles inland. I think JS borrowed the name from Nahum the prophet because he knew it meant to "comfort." I hope to premier my new video on "Debunking Nahom" later today.

[@lilithlucifera]

Looking forward to it!

[@krismurphy7711]

Dan THE MAN....as usual. Thank You for ALL you do to extract TRUTH & FACTS!!!!

[@MormonAuditor]

Thanks for the comment Dan, I'm a big fan of yours! Sorry for mixing up what you were saying about the borders, and I'm looking forward to your debunking!

[@robwilliams2265]

I can't wait for you to break down Lehi's voyage to the Americas

[@sean9854]

Lehi left land, gold, silver etc so I think it’s safe to assume he had the means to purchase/own either Arabian horses which travel 50-100 miles per day or Dromedaries that can travel 80-120 miles per day with a rider or light provisions. Another win for J Smith

[@tannerjasperson]

Interesting pace, going thousands of miles in a few weeks and then somehow taking 8 years to finish the trip. Your theory is plausible, though.

[@sean9854]

@@tannerjasperson im glad you find it interesting and not a “miss”. Moses quickly led the Israelites away from sudden destruction but then they wandered for 40 yrs. God told Lehi that the ppl, “seek to take thy life”. They would have traveled at a fast pace until they were far enough away to feel safe. At some point they could have lost their travel animals to disease, injuries or had to consume them for lack of food. At this point they would’ve been relegated to traveling by foot slowing their pace. Or like Moses, perhaps God knew they weren’t ready for the promised land during those yrs and made them wait. I really wish the content creator would have done better research than a quick Google search. It’s a little disingenuous to show a video of the Wadi or modern coastline and assume that’s exactly how it was 2,600 yrs ago. Arabia was significantly wetter and greener than today with lakes and grasslands which would make several of the criticisms “plausible “

[@MormonAuditor]

At that speed (even the slowest one), they could have made it to Bountiful in less than 2 months, so why did it take them 8 years? Why drag out this journey so long?

[@patriciafinn5717]

No mention of horses then...so easy to add this truth in..but didnt...the boat building is the biggest red flag...no wood anywhere to achieve this...the rock in the hat didnt do quite well..

[@sean9854]

Moses quickly led the Israelites away from sudden destruction but then they wandered for 40 yrs. God told Lehi that the ppl, “seek to take thy life”. They would have traveled at a fast pace until they were far enough away to feel safe. At some point they could have lost their travel animals to disease, injuries or had to consume them for lack of food. At this point they would’ve been relegated to traveling by foot slowing their pace. Or like Moses, perhaps God knew they weren’t ready for the promised land during those yrs and made them wait. I really wish the content creator would have done better research than a quick Google search. It’s a little disingenuous to show a video of the Wadi or modern coastline and assume that’s exactly how it was 2,600 yrs ago. Arabia was significantly wetter and greener than today with lakes and grasslands which would make several of the criticisms “plausible “

[@bradleeser606]

I’m sorry, but as I read that section in first Nephi, Lehi and his family traveled to the borders of the Red Sea. And then they traveled in the wilderness three days. That is very reasonable.

[@LifeAfterBelief]

Brilliant video! Instant sub!

[@sasquatch1990-y9y]

As long as just one theory antagonistic to the authenticity of its truthfulness can be plausible, it undermines the church? Then the opposite must also be true. As long as a theory of its authenticity can be plausible, which it can, then it seriously boosts the church’s credibility.

[@MormonAuditor]

Except that the church's theory is that the divine intervened to make this happen, so when you can literally invoke an omnipotent being, you can call ANYTHING plausible, so no it doesn't go the other direction. If there was no plausible way Joseph COULD have done it without divine help, then the divine theory would sound like a good one. Otherwise, it's at BEST a 50/50 toss up.

[@steventaylor9475]

The issue is that people focus on the small details and say "we have a hit it must be true" or "it must be false." We shouldn't be looking for a smoking gun. If we look at all of the evidence we can start to see the truth. The way Chad distorted what was said seriously discredits his argument. This same kind of thing is done on nearly all of the arguments for the church. Beyond this, the rest of the data points against the Mormon church too.

[@krismurphy7711]

17:45 Nice Find/Job with the maps. (Dartmouth/Moors Libraries???)

[@tannerjasperson]

Fantastic video. You have been improving your content so much!

[@nathanjarvis749]

This video was my introduction to your channel, and I instantly subscribed. Love the content, you’ve got a matpat from film theory vibe. I’m also exmo and love keeping tabs on Mormonism. Looking forward to the next upload!

[@raulofmustachio3d]

😂

[@pianomanchristopher]

This is all very well done. Chad (as all apologists, for that matter) operates under the assumption that the critics have the burden of proof, which is a fallacy in and of itself. The critics are not pushing their own narrative in an attempt to recruit members. They don't send out their own missionaries, and they don't ask us all to pay them percent of their income. They also don't promise the windows of heaven will open or that we will be saved from hellfire. All the negative needs to discredit a narrative is to find one flaw. It doesn't need a counter-narrative. They could have nine hits out of ten and the critics would give us good reason to doubt with their one counter. But they are actually lucky to only get one or two hits out of ten.

[@johnprince5356]

Great critique/analysis. Thank you.

[@PrixyPurple]

As your 23rd subscriber I’m glad that 24 hours later that number has tripled but I’m gunna need more people to see this high quality content.

[@krismurphy7711]

How fast does a Camel walk?

[@krismurphy7711]

Google AI.... "Camels have a slow, long walking stride and move at a pace, which means both legs on one side move forward together. Camels are known for their endurance and can walk up to 20 miles a day in the desert."

[@sean9854]

@@krismurphy7711 ask Google how far a Dromedary can travel in a day…80-120 miles

[@andrewjackson7785]

Lehi’s home was almost a days journey south of Jerusalem near Tel Lachish so that fits in nicely with the distance described in the BofM, esprit you are fleeing for your life. You’re going to cover a greater distance than hikers who are walking for pleasure.

[@AarmOZ84]

Only 30 subscribers? That is worse a sin then when Sister Petersen went on a drinking binge at the local Starbucks. 😢 ☕️

[@krismurphy7711]

"Valley"???? That looks like a narrow CANYON

[@Rcplanecrasher]

Great work. Btw, the red text on the grey background is kinda hard to read.

[@MormonAuditor]

Thanks for the feedback. I wondered about that, wasn't sure what to change it to. I'll have to figure out a different color.

[@harambeboy]

@@MormonAuditordon’t think in color. Think in contrast.

[@chasewilkinson1977]

Good stuff brother auditor

[@ericbyers235]

Keep it up!

[@raulofmustachio3d]

This is one of the least effective “debunkings” I’ve ever seen. Your inconsistent assumptions are glaringly hilarious to anyone watching.

[@LatterDayExploration]

Ha, you’re funny. You probably should have checked the other comments before saying “glaringly hilarious to anyone watching.” He actually did a pretty effective job.

[@raulofmustachio3d]

@ I don’t decipher truth off of the testimony meeting mantras of exmo support feigning online.

[@LatterDayExploration]

@@raulofmustachio3d horrible response missing my point. You said his assumptions “are glaringly hilarious to anyone watching.” Anyone watching. You’re clearly incorrect, Raul. I’m guessing you determine truth by how it makes you feel, rather than based on objective findings.

[@sean9854]

⁠@@LatterDayExplorationall the people commenting are clueless to science and data. I’ve tried to correct at least 4 ppl and my comments have been deleted.

[@sean9854]

@@LatterDayExploration here’s one of my posts to you that keeps getting deleted: You obviously looked at the first photo of the Khar Kharfot coastline and ended your research. You and MA are engaging in the same logical fallacy of “presentism”. To know which trees were actually growing there over 2,600 yrs ago you’d have to look at pollen/tree fossil records of the area. Fortunately, there are still trees growing there and we have photos. Search “Nephis Bountiful trees” and you’ll see giant timbers of Tamarindus Indica and Ficus Sycomorus that would’ve been used for transoceanic voyage. The Phoenician Expedition was a replica of a ship from 6 BCE that sailed from Syria to the Americas proving it could’ve been done before Columbus

[@bambie1830]

Barkley marathon is 120000 feet of elevation total

[@ericredd5590]

With zero other books being produced by words appearing on a stone, we can know that the BOM was not even produced the way JS claimed. So, all we are left with is the need to find an alternate method for the creation of the BOM. The Book of Abraham is a second example of JS’s claim that he translated is proven false by the papyri that resurfaced and have nothing to do with the Text of the BOA.

[@krismurphy7711]

What "The Book of Abraham" PROVES.....is that Joseph Smith CAN WRITE/CREATE SCRIPTURE!!! He had the skill. BTW...it took him 7 YEARS to "translate" the papyri.

[@bambie1830]

Not every tree is used for bows

[@BeauMcCraney]

Look at the efforts you are making to spin this to an odd reading of the Book of Mormon. This is very simple and you strive to confuse.

[@MormonAuditor]

Thanks for the comments. Despite the accusation, I'm not trying to spin anything. I'm trying to synthesize a complicated topic down to the most salient points and provide at least one alternative explanation to how Joseph could have done it. It's fine for you to disagree, but the fact that you think this is "very simple" tells me you have an extremely shallow understanding of these issues. Maybe you should read up more before you say something that arrogant.