I Wish I Knew These Truths about Pricing Your Art

[@artprof]

Watch our video on how to create an artist website: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5qudKuAarVmm7M

[@dougsundseth6904]

Some comments (sorry for the length, but I've had variations of this conversation more than once over the years): * Never insult your customers by telling them that you don't like your art as much as they do. Never say anything like, "It's not my best work, but...", even if you really believe it or if you really feel embarrassed that somebody is gushing over your work. Instead, validate their opinion by just saying, "Thank you, I was very pleased with the result here. I hope it brings you happiness for years." * Related, a low price conveys the impression that you don't like the piece all that much. If you don't like it, why should your customers? After all, you're the expert. * Also related, a high price (that doesn't seem absurd, anyway), conveys the impression that not only do you like it but you think other people will like it enough to pay that price. Which validates the opinion of the customer. * If you really don't like a piece (so long as selling it wouldn't actively hurt your image, which probably means wide dissemination by reproduction of a piece that is not to your professional standards), sell the heck out of it. Once it sells you will never have to look at it again and you'll have money for that Everest expedition. Or maybe a burger and fries. 8-) * Think about all the value streams you can manage from a piece: Sell the original, sell prints (including an unlimited edition, a signed and numbered edition, different sizes ...), sell the repro rights for a book cover, sell merch with the art on it. If this is your living, treat it like a business. * There's nothing wrong with either raising or reducing your prices (or both) over time. There's no inherent right price for something sold based on the emotions it evokes. * One of the emotions art can evoke is a feeling that the piece connects the customer to the artist. There's a reason entirely pedestrian sketches by big-name artists sell for lots of money, and it's not any sort of underlying artistic value of the piece. So don't be a jerk unless you are so famous that it just doesn't matter. Nobody wants an emotional connection with a jerk -- unless, apparently, the jerk is really famous. People are strange. * Nobody other than you cares how much time a piece took or how much it cost in materials. Customers make buying decisions on entirely different criteria. Which is not to say that you shouldn't be tracking your costs. But the importance of tracking costs is that you need to make sure that your art can be sold for enough to keep you in generic Ramen and roach traps (or filet mignon and a gardener on staff). If you can't sell your pieces for enough to cover your costs, you need to find a different way of creating and selling your work or find a different career. That's the real brutal truth of pricing. All of that assumes this is aimed at artists who are trying to use art to pay the rent and buy the food. If you're a professional, you should price your work to get every single penny that the market will bear. As an aside, since many artists aren't actually trying to make a living with their art, if it's a hobby you shouldn't be selling your art unless the money you get makes you happier than that piece you just sold. It's really easy to find yourself being talked into commissions (or sales of previous work) simply because a friend is offering you a "fair" price. You're not doing it to make ends meet, so a fair price is one that makes you happy, not one that makes your "friend" happy. More than once I've told people that I can give them a price for things I do for myself purely for joy, but that the price will be neither reasonable nor negotiable. And I've never been swayed by any expressions of shock or dismay afterwards. If you're doing it just to make yourself happier, don't allow people to convince you to do it just for a little money. Down that road lies burnout.

[@SingingASMRSongs]

Those are some good tips, thanks for sharing 👍

[@BigHenFor]

Thank you for putting this up. It's true: creating art for a living, and creating it for love and pleasure are two different things, and if you don't like the cut and thrust of selling, then don't do it for the money.

[@artprof]

Thanks again Doug for your insightful post, you make such wonderful contributions to our conversations here! -Prof Lieu

[@oilonpaper]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences with us! 🌼

[@fictionfatale3913]

I sold my first ever painting yesterday and it was SO AWKWARD, I didn’t know what she expected to pay for it, whether I undersold myself etc.. especially since the painting she wanted had sentimental value to me. I ended up asking for £150, and she said she’d shake on £130 and I accepted. It was just a very uncomfortable experience all round.

[@brunosinga]

I would recommend having a set price and making it clear why you arrived at this price! If you have this logic ready, it is very difficult for someone who likes your work, to come to you and say your logic is wrong! That being said, you need to be the devil's advocate to yourself and understand the true cost of your skill and time. I hope this helped

[@TimothyOng98]

maybe you can try defending yourself and reason why u think it cost 150, and if she didnt want to honor the price, you would wait for another customer instead

[@katod5056]

Thank you for posting these for free! i find your videos so helpful and great to listen to whilst painting.

[@artprof]

Glad you like them!

[@lesliesmith7312]

I'm always mystified when it comes to pricing, especially when I go into a Gallery and see something that looks like it wold take me five minutes to throw on the canvas and it's $200,000 and over in the corner is an incredibly detailed piece that probably took months to do and it's priced at $200. My Mom and her friend both took a class on painting spiritual paintings. My Mom sold a few for $80, while her friend started selling her stuff right away at $6000, and now she's doing pretty well in galleries. I don't know how you decide if you should start out cheap, or just go for it. I think most of the people who make it big just start out at a higher price.

[@LoynePueblos]

Projection. Timing. Valuing your work (sold or not).

[@SingingASMRSongs]

A good friend was interested in my first acrylic painting and said he'd pay if I make another one like it for my material "etc". I then suggested a price via chat (50-100, I had worked at least 4 full days on it), he didn't respond right away, and I felt so insecure about it that I ended up giving him the original for free 😂 I was just proud that anyone would hang my painting on their wall. Don't think this will happen again, but I thought he'd hang the painting in his office and therefore promote me, but it ended up in his dining room 😄

[@emilklostermann5528]

I would love to see a video about how to varnish your paintings the right way! Btw I really enjoy your channel

[@artprof]

Great suggestion!

[@fraufuchs9555]

This is one of the best videos on the channel. It gives tons of information you can't find easily. Thank you so much.

[@artprof]

Sosososo glad this video has been helpful for you! -Lauryn, Art Prof Teaching Artist

[@magdalenagrdic5691]

You should review spencers art from iCarly

[@devandestudios128]

I price my works according to following formula; 1$ per square inch + # of hours spent on the work, 1 hour minimum @ 10$ hr. + Cost of materials, canvas, paint, etc. Venue and audience intended to reach would seem to be a reach to me as I do not see how that would actually matter. Would like a more in depth explanation as to venue and audience? So if I have a 16" × 20" painting on stretched cotton canvas the starting price, before time and materials cost would be 320$ I then calculate time spent working on the piece, this is to include any time spent on working out composition and the like. Let's say, in all, 6 hours on piece, just for simplicity, that's 60$ for my time. We're now at 380$. Then I add in materials cost. This is the tricky part. If I had to purchase paint for a piece I include half the price of that cost because I won't use all that paint unless it's an impasto piece, then I'll use all or most and include the total cost. So let's say I've got 100$ in materials, we're now at 480$. If a client wants a frame, that's part of the cost. Install if necessary would be part of the cost. Shipping if necessary is part of the cost. So yeah, it's definitely tricky.

[@BigHenFor]

Venue is important as buying a piece in a local gallery will attract different and wealthier buyers than a local art fair, and prices will reflect that.

[@devandestudios128]

@@BigHenFor that's not convincing me that I would need to change my price depending on the venue. If I price a piece at 10,000$ and it's shown at a more well to do venue, yet doesn't sell, I'm certainly not going to change the price by lowering it at different venue.

[@BigHenFor]

@@devandestudios128 Being an artist and being a art seller are two different things, and need different skills and mindsets. Remember, to sell your art means finding the buyer who will want what you produce and are willing to pay what price you want. At $10000, you will not find buyers with that kind of spare cash at a local art fair. Have you ever been to local art fairs? They are held all over the country by companies that hire venues and promote their fairs to the general public. If you sell on that circuit, you and your work will have to travel. You have to pay for a space to sell, and set up a booth, at which you sell your work to the public who buy a ticket to attend the fair. So, you have to build a booth, transport you and your work, and spend the whole day there selling your work. Even if you get a big convention centre as the venue, you will have many other artists selling their stuff there too. Most sales will be in cash, or you will have to pay a card transaction service like PayPal to provide wireless card transactions. Then, at the end of the day, you will have to pack up your booth, and go on home or onto the next fair. These events don't really attract people with $10000 to spend on a painting or sculpture. When you have that kind of spare change, you want comfort, exclusivity, privacy, and a personal service. Going to a art fair is like shopping at Walmart. Why would someone who can afford to shop on Rodeo Drive go to an Art Fair? Where if you are lucky, the highest spend is around $100 - $200? People who can buy $10000 worth of something decorative go to commercial galleries, where they can be sure to get a selection of art that is already curated by the owners for quality. They can view the works installed in an environment designed to display them to their best advantage at a viewing, or at a private appointment time that is convenient to them. Viewings are usually by invitation only, and are often social occasions, where the wine and canapés relax (and lubricate the buyer's wallets. Lol.) Gallery owners will then promote your work to those invited and arrange the sale and safe transport of the purchase to its new owner. The Art Market is a hierarchy, where works sell according to their perceived value. Put your 10k piece in a low-rent venue like an art fair, you won't sell it. Get a slot it in a well-known, high-end commercial gallery where the well-heeled people go, and it will sell. Remember, the price you get is what other people perceive as good value. Put it for sale in an environment where the items on sale are valued much lower than yours, and you'll have a white elephant to take back home at the end of the day. So, to put bread and butter on the table, you need to diversify your output. Yes you can produce works worth thousands of dollars but, you'll have to wait possibly a long time before they are sold. In the meantime, making art that is accessible and cheaper will pay your bills. There is no shame in this. Art for the masses is still art. As a fan of jewellery, I understand this very well. I would love to buy antique Art Deco pieces, but having diamond tastes, and a paste-sized wallet are incompatible, so in my own work, I try to produce pieces that are well-designed, relatively easy to produce, comfortable to wear, and are affordable too. They, then will pay for better materials and more striking designs for people who can afford something more luxurious, and more time-consuming to produce. Good luck with your ventures.

[@artprof]

In the example you've provided, I probably wouldn't take the $10k piece to an art fair because the price points between those two venues are so different, that selling the work for a substantially lower price would be strange. I do have an example of changing pricing in real life though. I make a certain kind of small drawing that I have sold at a particular fair for many years. This fair is twice a year in my community for one day only, and has a low price point. The people that attend this fair have cash only (as @BigHenFor mentions). They are also mostly artist types, or young people with families. The min wage in this state is $7.25 and the cost of living is lower, but there are very few fees, no taxes, no cuts. These conditions dictate the price point of what will sell. The same series of drawings asks 5-10 times as much money in a gallery setting in a different state. The gallery will take a cut, there are taxes in the state, and the cost of living in that area is much higher. The type of person that is looking to buy in a gallery is someone who has more money and values things that cost more money. If I tried to sell the drawings at the art fair price, no one would buy them. I have always been kind of eeky about price variations, and it really is a case by case basis, but I see that it is necessary in some situations. For me what made it fine to sell this work at two different price points was- 1. I was making a profit in either situation 2. The two venues are very far away from each other and don't affect each other's competition. 3. The art fair is a limited scenario where the price is low just for one day in a limited community that is only available in person. 4. It's important to me to maintain the relationship with the community that attends the art fair because they have raised me into a successful artist. I want my work to continue to be accessible to them at a price point we can both afford. 5. It's important to me to keep my prices high at the gallery because the owner is a great person and does well selling my work. I want the gallery to get as much out of their cut as they can to keep the lights on. Price variation is not limited to the art world. -gas prices vary depending on your state and the economy -housing prices for similar houses vary depending on geography -clothing prices for the same clothing vary depending on venue -the same item between a brick and mortar store and Amazon can have vastly different prices When you think of art as a good in the economy, this makes more sense. I know that's kind of soul crushing because we feel like art should have some inherent, unchangeable value, but if you're selling a piece of artwork, you're performing an exchange that exists within an economy, and economic conditions matter. -Lauryn (Art Prof Teaching Artist)

[@BigHenFor]

@@artprof Amen. That's reality.

[@srednaart]

This was comforting to hear! When I began selling art I first owed money, next time I priced enough to cover expenses, now I'd like to price a rate that reflects the time I spend preparing the painting as well as actually painting iteself. I think over time we get closer to what works for us. I am also realizing that it's okay to make lower priced art that is faster to make as well as more expensive priced art that's bigger and takes longer. At the end of the day it's a crazy business to price because it's really up to the consumer what they are willing to pay. Thanks for the talk 😊 As far as who gets what cuts... For me running an online shop on etsy, they take 23% of my profit. Then when taxes comes around every year the gov takes 40% of my profit. The amount the gov taxes small business like me is insane. No matter if you make 10k a year or 600k a year, you are taxed the same. Smh

[@carolsinclair2590]

My brother the accountant told me: Labor x hours + materials + PROFIT! Then if I want to discount a deal it cuts into the profit margin and not my expenses. Labor is an expense not a profit!

[@lifeofwuwei7116]

I really like this channel because it is loaded with information i never in art school.

[@artprof]

We're so happy you enjoy it! feel free to check out our website as well, there are TONS of other resources there you might find helpful :) artprof.org/ - Mia Rozear, Art Prof Staff

[@chavelebatmiriam4123]

Thank you for referring me to this. Would be wonderful to meet you in person!

[@artprof]

We occasionally do in-person meetups and events! You can learn about those ahead of time by joining our Art Prof newsletter. artprof.org/contact/ -Lauryn, Art Prof Teaching Artist

[@JimZalewski]

Yay! I love my $15 Bird Calendar Lauryn.

[@seahawk100]

Thanks. This was very helpful.

[@artprof]

Glad to hear it!

[@Saffirance]

It is so discouraging to sell at a gallery if they get half but your portion if you subtract how much you spent on materials and taxes is almost nothing for your work,and time. How is an artist supposed to make a living like that? If you are like me you are in love with a lot of your art. The take home amount after selling at a gallery is heart breaking. It seems not worth it to let go of your art. You may sell 2 prints and make the same amount as you got from a gallery for the sale of an original painting after your costs. Yes custom frames are so expensive. I framed one of my paintings and the frame was 70% off with an additional 20% off and it ended up being more than $500 just for the frame. It's so hard to make a living as an artist. I have also had a hard timecwith people loving my art, wanting to buy it buy tgen they are offended when I give them the price. I think they think because we are friends that they can get it for almost nothing.

[@BigHenFor]

These are the words of Doug Sundseth who commented above 3 hours ago: "Some comments (sorry for the length, but I've had variations of this conversation more than once over the years): * Never insult your customers by telling them that you don't like your art as much as they do. Never say anything like, "It's not my best work, but...", even if you really believe it or if you really feel embarrassed that somebody is gushing over your work. Instead, validate their opinion by just saying, "Thank you, l was very pleased with the result here. I hope it brings you happiness for years." * Related, a low price conveys the impression that you don't like the piece all that much. If you don't like it, why should your customers? After all, you're the expert. * Also related, a high price (that doesn't seem absurd, anyway), conveys the impression that not only do you like it but you think other people will like it enough to pay that price. Which validates the opinion of the customer. * If you really don't like a piece (so long as selling it wouldn't actively hurt your image, which probably means wide dissemination by reproduction of a piece that is not to your professional standards), sell the heck out of it. Once it sells you will never have to look at it again and you'll have money for that Everest expedition. Or maybe a burger and fries. 8-) * Think about all the value streams you can manage from a piece: Sell the original, sell prints (including an unlimited edition, a signed and numbered edition, different sizes ...), sell the repro rights for a book cover, sell merch with the art on it. If this is your living, treat it like a business. * There's nothing wrong with either raising or reducing your prices (or both) over time. There's no inherent right price for something sold based on the emotions it evokes. * One of the emotions art can evoke is a feeling that the piece connects the customer to the artist. There's a reason entirely pedestrian sketches by big-name artists sell for lots of money. and it's not any sort of underlying artistic value of the piece. So don't be a jerk unless you are so famous that it just doesn't matter. Nobody wants an emotional connection with a jerk unless, apparently, the jerk is really famous. People are strange. * Nobody other than you cares how much time a piece took or how much it cost in materials. Customers make buying decisions on entirely different criteria. Which is not to say that you shouldn't be tracking your costs. But the importance of tracking costs is that you need to make sure that your art can be sold for enough to keep you in generic Ramen and roach traps (or filet mignon and a gardener on staff). If you can't sell your pieces for enough to cover your costs, you need to find a different way of creating and selling your work or fInd a different career. That's the real brutal truth of pricing. All of that assumes this is aimed at artists who are trying to use art to pay the rent and buy the food. If you’re a professional, you should price your work to get every single penny that the market will bear. As an aside, since many artists aren't actually trying to make a living with their art, if it's a hobby you shouldn't be selling your art unless the money you get makes you happier than that piece you just sold. It's really easy to find yourself being talked into commissions (or sales of previous work) simply because a friend is offering you a "fair" price. You're not doing it to make ends meet, so a fair price is one that makes you happy, not one that makes your "friend" happy. More than once I've told people that I can give them a price for things I do for myself purely for joy, but that the price will be neither reasonable nor negotiable. And I've never been swayed by any expressions of shock or dismay afterwards. If you're doing it just to make yourself happier, don't allow people to convince you to do it just for a little money. Down that road lies burnout." If you agree, find his comment and give him a thumbs up.

[@josephineschmidt9021]

Can you do a video on glazing (in oil paints) or mix media paintings, also using different materials in your painting, unique materials to make your paintings pop and stand out. I'm so curious about this material called mother of pears, apparently it's similar to gold leaf but this artist that I love uses it very often and it gives her painting a beautiful metallic finish and I just can't find away to get a hold of that material or how to use it in paintings. The artist is Lindsay Rapp and she paints oil on mylar mounted wood which I also think is quite unique.

[@artprof]

Hi! We cover glazing in our oil painting tutorial: kzbin.info/www/bejne/moHaaX1ofJyWp6s and we have this mixed media acrylic painting tutorial that shows how to mix other items like coffee grounds into the paint: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o3mbgZeEr7OBgaM -Prof Lieu

[@TechnicolorGent]

I will change my prices at pop up shows to be a lil less than comparable works and I kinda make bank getting more prints and cards of my originals sold.

[@katiepadden8358]

Would you guys be willing to do a live stream that discusses illustration commissions? Maybe Alex would have some insight on this. I just started working on a commission for illustrating a children's book for my old English teacher. It is 32 pages long with 16 illustrations and a cover piece as well. I'm enjoying working on it a lot, but I didn't realize just how much time and effort I would be putting into it! I'm really unsure of how to even start with the pricing aspect of it... Anyway, thanks for having such an awesome channel-- it has definitely had a positive impact on my artwork and my life!

[@artprof]

Yes, it's on our list! Alex definitely has thoughts about this. Commissions are very tricky, for now, this article I wrote on commissions might be helpful: artprof.org/professional-development/handling-commissions/ -Prof Lieu

[@katiepadden8358]

@@artprof Thank you so much!!!

[@monkeybearmax]

Well if we don’t have a gallery to sell in for larger pieces then we must learn to sell them online until we can (if we then want to) I see a lot of artists selling big pricy pieces online with the right marketing. It would be cool to interview some of the artists that have been able to pull this off. Some of these artists still sell in galleries and some completely avoid. I agree art marketing is different but digital marketing principles still work for larger pieces. Not easy to be sure but trad digital marketing can be effective if customized to your audience.

[@anawieder5003]

I think a 50% commission is totally fair. I make large scale paintings and installations that combine paintings, ceramic sculpture, and works on paper. I imagine and create my work to exist in a real space. I want people to experience my work in three dimensions. Plus my work is quite textured and even the best fine art photographer can't exactly replicate the dimensionality and impasto of my work. The idea of only showing work online makes me feel really sad because until its experienced in real life and installed it feels unfinished. I know that during the pandemic virtual reality shows have become popular; this is a step up from just regular pictures but it's still not the same experience. Plus, the idea of doing all the marketing, all the collector outreach , and other maintenance is unappealing in the extreme. I had a gallery for 5 years that closed during the pandemic and I really hope I get get another one.

[@artprof]

We're so sorry to hear your gallery closed! Hopefully things will work themselves out again soon, and you can display your work how it was meant to be seen :) - Mia Rozear, Art Prof Staff

[@nicoleperron3315]

I know this is an old video but I can relate to the it will give you exposure one. An acquaintance of mine offered to hang some of my watercolors in her store to give me exposure. Well I gave her three, some time later when it came time to get them back, short of going there and making a huge scene, she kept them and didn't give them back, so I was out the cost of the framing and my art. I was going through a rough seperation at the time and chasing after her was the least of my problems and putting my art out there was to make me feel better😂. I did try by email and phone but it didn't work, so she stole them and kept them. Now she got interviewed on the news saying what a nice person she was 😂and I could see one of my watercolors hanging on the wall behind her 😂 so I was torn between being very angry and being flattered that she liked them enough to steal them!

[@artprof]

Oh NO! This is a nightmare, we're so sorry... - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@balamstudios]

If you are on the internet use international metric system. More so if you want to sell through the internet. The world wont bother wondering how many babanas lenght is your frame. They will go somewhere else.

[@artprof]

Yes! That's a great point. Once I started working with artists outside of the US, I at least try to keep those conversions readily available! -Lauryn (Art Prof Teaching Artist)

[@mizubiart6230]

hello. i am a minor and i would like to start selling my art. i am polishing my sites to make them look more portfolio like. i would like to know how to avoid and confront possible legal complications associated with selling art as a minor. i know it is possible, but i want to be prepared. i have been paid for my art before, but in an informal and familiar way. how would you advise me to go about this?

[@artprof]

This is a great thing to look into! We have a few videos about legalities surrounding artwork, feel free to check this one out: artprof.org/pro-development/business-selling/contracts-invoices-for-artists/ - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@indoororchidsandtropicals358]

It's not the materials in jewelry art that is expensive, it's the tools. Imagine needing a 50 dollar brush for each thickness of line, for each color, for each shade.. that's where the cost is. Gold of course is much more than it used to be..its like buying the lapis lazuli paint, but yeah..its the tools because you are working in metal and you need a new tool for every hole, curve, texture, etc etc.

[@artprof]

I know, material costs can be through the roof insane! It's overwhelming to say the least... - Mia Rozear, Art Prof Staff

[@lyneqc7805]

Hi everyone, would love another tutorial on pricing and medium versus another Same artist who does acrylics, oils, pastels, watercolor etc, and how much to charge more or less depending on medium thank you

[@lyneqc7805]

Ex, pro sticks in pastels, papers, framing or not etc ty

[@artprof]

Wonderful suggestion, thank you so much Lyne! - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@lyneqc7805]

you are very welcome, because it is vague how much we charge for materials, ty

[@brittneythomas204]

this doesn't really count but, do you have any advice for selling at comic/anime conventions ?

[@artprof]

We don't have a video specifically on this, but we do have this video on selling your art online, and there's definitely some crossover there:kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6a8d2mmidODqtE -Prof Lieu

[@moderatorlyneqc4942]

Hi would like to see a stream again on pricing, but cost of materials,, exemple, acrylics-oils versus Pastels that can be 15$ a stick thank you

[@artprof]

That's a really great idea!! Thanks for the suggestion :) - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@moderatorlyneqc4942]

@@artprof you are very welcome

[@colourmequaint9690]

So many videos to watch, so little time! 😣

[@artprof]

Haha, you have all the time in the world! - Mia Rozear, Art Prof Staff

[@4kassis]

"you are not chuck Close" well, that's the real question: WHY is he selling for that much???

[@artprof]

Good question! - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@starveartist]

Lauryn's IG doesn't have an 'L" after the d. @laurynredwelch not @laurynredlwelch

[@artprof]

Tysm for catching that!!! -Prof Lieu

[@brittanydumoulinful]

Thankyou I just did a youtube tutorial on painting fire the artist is Ryan O'rourke. I posted my first attempt at it and already sold it it's 8×11 arcylic took 3 hrs I've been asked a few times if I'd sell I'm a beginner and am intimidated by pricing it. I ended up settling for 35.00 for original. So many factors as it's not my concept or composition it's if course not the exact same as the original artist, but I don't feel comfortable charging more at this point especially since not my original work. I really need a new brush so I actually based my price off the brush I want also..lol

[@fictionfatale3913]

I sold my first ever painting yesterday and it was SO AWKWARD, I didn’t know what she expected to pay for it, whether I undersold myself etc.. especially since the painting she wanted had sentimental value to me. I ended up asking for £150, and she said she’d shake on £130 and I accepted. It was just a very uncomfortable experience all round.