Ideal Love Fantasy: Borderline and Covert Borderline (starts

0:00 Borderline as failed narcissist: why the failure? 40:18 Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) in DSM 49:01 Covert Borderline and Borderline Types in Love
The classic Borderline offers the Covert Borderline an ideal love fantasy which he craves. But his ideal partner is a codependent "shy or quiet" borderline.
Borderline is a failed narcissist because she has an intermittent mother, not a dead one: intermittent reinforcement allows the borderline to perceive external objects by outsourcing ego functions and even her body despite her huge narcissistic investment.
The narcissist gave up on the externality of separate objects because they are bound to frustrate and hurt. The borderline still has hope: she interacts with separate external objects via merger and fusion, by becoming their internal object.
Covert borderline is a child who was first subjected to a dead mother and then to an intermittent but loving mother. He is trying to recreate this love.
Shy or quiet borderline: useful idea miscast as a diagnosis.
Borderline’s anaclitic object choice
Narcissist’s fantasy is to be loved by a mother figure
Covert Borderline’s fantasy is ideal love expressed through children
Borderline’s fantasy is be regulated by secure base, special friend, rock
All experience shadow via their partners (Archaic wounds, V-spots)
LITERATURE
WATCH Borderline’s Partner: Some Enter Healthy, Exit Mentally Ill • Borderline’s Partner: ...
WATCH Borderline Demonizes Partner, Pathologizes Narcissist (Or Herself) • Borderline Demonizes P...
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WATCH Odd Couples: Codependent-Codependent, Narcissist-Narcissist (1st in Series) • Odd Couples: Codepende...
WATCH How Covert Narcissist Deceives Covert Borderline and He Loves It (2nd in Odd Couples Series) • How Covert Narcissist ...
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[@samvaknin]

0:00 Borderline as failed narcissist: why the failure? 40:18 Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) in DSM 49:01 Covert Borderline and Borderline Types in Love

[@MartinaCermakova-z7h]

"..nothing is more interesting than borderline Disneyland " Yes, for a narcissist, having a partner with a borderline personality disorder is truly a trip to Disneyland. Their joy and suffering often become the source of their existence. For someone with borderline personality disorder, the best and at the same time the worst cover is often the ideal love fantasy: a narcissist.If a person wants to stay healthy and sane, they should avoid narcissists and individuals with borderline personality disorder. It's also advisable not to have children with them.A trip to Disneyland can turn into a nightmare.

[@asimioso]

I think narcs can find the emotional intensity addictive so when it's good it's good but when it's bad it gets really bad

[@topdog2247]

I am borderline, always been in relationships with narcissistis (started with my mom), and I never ever understood myself better than when I listen to you. You are a genius, Mr Vaknin. So proud to live in the same time as you, to see you and listen to you. Thank you.

[@Chez8922-kf6cy]

I wish I had found him decades ago.

[@clown7169]

This talk has changed my life. Was just diagnosed BPD (covert) and I've never felt so read. Like my code has been exposed as this is the exact pattern my relationships fall into, I'm not sure what to think knowing that "ideal love" is a fruitless chase that's doomed to consume me.

[@pipopipo6477]

What you're saying about covert BPD matches like 90% to my personality. Some details are a bit different dough. I think I had a loving mother as a baby/toddler that became a dead mother lather at times. I also feel no need to have kids but I do somehow pathologically take care of people and feel many times I'm like a parental figure in their lives. I also never feel sadistic urges I think. But almost anything else is extremely true.

[@zakevanss19]

You’re a genius. There isn’t enough time in the day to explain how perfectly this fits into my existence. Thank you so much.

[@user-me6un7ih3r]

This makes so much sense with all the clear various overlaps with both ADHD and ASD and why so many get misdiagnosed and ultimately recieve the incorrect treatment.

[@ClusterB_Boy]

In my years of therapy I’ve been diagnosed firstly BPD and then most recently NPD/ASPD. Your videos on covert borderline describe my behaviours and cognitions to a T. I’ve had a relationship with a diagnosed “classic” borderline and had children - ended with her bolting on me and trying to come back repeatedly until I disengaged. I’m currently 6 months into a relationship with, after watching this video what I strongly suspect is a co-dependant/ shy borderline. This video was very helpful and accurate. Thanks

[@anamarija8289]

I am a bpd - classical one I guess and I don't usually get involved with narcissists. I do find some of them attractive at the very beginning, but then I pretty soon realize how full of bs they are and that it all is just a performance from their side and I lose my interest in them quite quickly.🤷🏻‍♀️

[@tulinbeyduz920]

same here

[@charlest7184]

The part where he says all bad all evil I feel like an imposter inside but outside I'm a person what I do is good for everyone these thoughts happened to me every morning within an hour after I wake up. Strange, Mr Vaknin is the very best at his profession

[@margaretmiranda4882]

Your analysis of classic bpd and covert bpd relationships are so right on it reminds me of my and my ex's relationship ....at the end I was able to scape the toxic bpd Disneyland ...and move away ...but not before he did great damage to my reputation and my career ....I wish I had never met this man as he still finds ways to contact me in desperate ways to try and get me back, he still threatens to do me harm ....but now I am far away from his reach ....I wish U had never encountered this relationship and now that I am more aware of my bpd tendencies and how it works I will be more aware of how bad these relationships can be and the harm that it can cause a person ...Thank you for your insight ....it has been very much an eye opener and it makes great sense psychologically

[@joannasz1660]

Thank you so much, to be honest , BPD has never been explained better.

[@TheVirtualDeb]

I am so sorry for what is going on in your country. Please stay safe. Hugs from Boston, Massachusetts

[@anabandana666]

Frighteningly accurate

[@candicesalter3926]

Well done explaining this dynamic of covert-borderline and borderline pair so clearly! It is in the finer details of the covert-borderline that separate and identify the covert-borderline from an ultruistic covert narcissist.

[@yordan_ivanov_77]

This was beyond profound. 😢. This shit is making me cry while listening to it. So true, so sad, so specific and yet so right on spot. I can relate to almost every sentence in this fucking brilliance.

[@Mirjana633]

Love and peace for all. ❤🕊

[@chrysewymer9009]

Thank you so much for these covert borderline videos! For years, I thought maybe I was a narc, maybe a psychopath, but I also definitely fit a lot of the borderline definitions, so this makes so much sense to me because I really don't have the same kind of issues as my BPD friends. From what I understand, DBT is the standard treatment for borderlines. Is this also true of covert borderlines? Thanks again for your amazing videos!

[@samvaknin]

DBT will be less effective with CBPD. Watch the Covert Borderline playlist.

[@chrysewymer9009]

@@samvaknin Thank you!

[@sergiokhizhnyak]

Brilliant lecture! I finally got my answers. Thank you 🙏🏻

[@MartinaCermakova-z7h]

Thank you for video. Explains how my mum create me.

[@anne-marieconn9048]

Great video I appreciate the thorough review. I wonder, when the covert moves through the stage of psychopathic and then discards, do they ever repeat the cycle with the same person? As part narcissist, do they idealize, devalue, discard and Hoover? or because they idealize a fantasy relationship and do not seek supply per se, once they see a person as unable to give the perfect relationship, are they never seen as a potential for their fantasy again?

[@samvaknin]

They are far less likely to hoover than a narcissist.

[@MacWhite-o3g]

When I heard this it was like listening to my own life or watching my whole life. My wife does not have any empathy , compassion or interest. It's always my fault. Does not remember much. I love our daughter and realised I was never in love with her but with "Love" she pretended. Knowing the future it does not look bright :( Thank you @SamVaknin as I saved so much time and realised the truth which is most important for me ( to stop living lie and realise what's actually going on).

[@LisaRichards_123]

Thank you for talking about this

[@aleksandarstankovski1777]

@samvaknin: thank you for your elaboration of covert bpd that makes sense. Could you please take a stab at the false self of the covert and the classical bpd? You have a hadful of this construct on npd, but not on the former PDs. Thank you in advance. Kind regards to you and my home country.

[@jonathankelly2655]

Going to listen to this ten times. Are there any ways out of this dynamic?

[@ileanaprofeanu7626]

therapy

[@victorosoriojule1683]

Fuck me, what a cliffhanger ending

[@JohnDoe-vy5hh]

My ex-wife was the Borderline and I was the covert Borderline.

[@Katooo1983]

@Sam Vaknin It's a perfect episode 👌 clearly describes the internal feelings I never spoke out or can't even explain better. The only thing without a professional diagnosis, suspecting that I'm the covert borderline trying to keep the relation peaceful and running with my borderline I'm trying to invest in keeping it working. I'm not sure if this is out of the savior role or not but deeply inside I feel that she's the love of my life. Even while I know I have other chances outhtere that might even be psychologically even better I for the first time fully aware choose to be loyal and to continue and choose fidelity. I just want to make sure that this is not only a fantasy or me being clingy or a codependent how can I test that? Currently I am on a no contact period imposed offcourse by the borderline after an intense emotional fight. What I truly feel that we both replicate the dead mother, previous bad partners allowing us a chance to heal from previous traumas.. is that a true thing or is it an imagination of myself? I highly appreciate your engagement with me ❤

[@Katooo1983]

Just to sum it short I am trying to self heal, because I don't believe I have where I live professional people to rely on not to mention the high charges incase if you would find someone professional so i am following almost all your videos hopefully to become a more stable parent, partner and individual

[@taliavalentino]

Your amazing… very intelligent and spot on!

[@pipopipo6477]

I know you said there's currently no "cure" for NPD? Is it that also true for covert BPD? I feel I'm a covert BPD and your videos on the topic helped me immensely to understand myself better at least. Thank you!

[@samvaknin]

The prognosis for covert BPD is better than for NPD, though not by much.

[@kitti.7812]

This video came in the right time. I’m in a relationship with a guy who has ADHD. (I’m a covert borderline.) But I know that’s not his only problem. I’ve been trying to psychoanalize his behavior and I couldn’t decide what he is, in my opinion he is a borderline. But his behavior is very confusing. Every time I meet him, he is in another self state. It feels like he has multiple self states, and like I would meet a different person every time I meet him. Otherwise he behaves the same with everyone but me. So let’s say he has a “core self” for others, but when he is with me, he doesn’t know who he is or don’t know how to behave, he is always switching self states. He displays the following behaviors: - He enjoys me externalizing my aggression (he is submissive and (I guess) masochist). - (in order to achieve this, he is trying to trigger me a lot of times.) - I’ve seen him envy people who are in a better financial situation. - He always wants me to decide things and be in control. - He would literally give me everything. Sometimes it feels like when he is looking at me, he is loving himself through me. I’d even say he has engulfment anxiety. (I’m not sure yet.) He is looking for love, and being able to love me truly. He would never hurt me and he wants marriage in the future. I wanna know how can I help him and work on our relationship. Because that he is a different person every time I meet him is driving me insane. Also, this self state switching didn’t happen when I was just meeting with him, it started when we got into a relationship. So is it me who causing it to him? Is this self state switching happens because he has introject inconstancy, or dissociation, depersonalization/ derelazition?

[@natashapi2613]

Sounds like narcissistic behavior and not adhd...

[@stevenmanwaring8943]

I know this dynamic very well

[@Somuchfire]

Thank you for the video

[@Mybloomingiris]

Can two covert borderlines have a fulfilling or successful relationship?

[@samvaknin]

No, owing to their narcissism.

[@mim.r4499]

Awesome, many many thanks ❤

[@Dailyprophet777]

Thats very correct sam but when choosing a partner im looking for someone who i can dominate someone who can understand sort of like a father figure i never had one with boundaries though as that would annoy me i wouldn't hurt them but id probably manipulate them i like intamacy at the start but i get very bored but yes if he didnt show love il cut of any forms of intamacy this is me punishing them how dare you not love me now your no good for me although i would never look for a replacement as im not one to cheat i do withdraw withhold untill they get the message and normally leave then id look for a replacement now im saying all this as im a self aware borderline but it was only through a relationship with a narcasist that it helped me be self aware before that it was always someone elses fault iv been single 5 years now because although im self aware im not cured. And i know its a behavior that sadly is automatic sometimes it just happens and when it did does its easy to say i was to good for them anyway its not my problem by doing this it gives me reason to believe they are the cause of my pain. Great video ❤

[@catsilkmountain]

bravo vaknin ty

[@LeraVictoria]

Храни Вас Бог, Сэм.

[@joe-yuugen]

Dr. Vaknin, what are your thoughts on the contrast and behavioral overlap of covert borderline and cptsd survivors? Is the primary operating notion of victim/Saint dissociative state vs periodically reactive grandiose survivor?

[@anne-marieconn9048]

An excellent explanation as always. I wonder, does the covert borderline Hoover as a narcisist would? You mentioned that eventually they go through the same cycle of the narcissist..devalue, discard, replace, but many narcisisst’s also Hoover and start the cycle again. As the borderline’s motivation is perfect love/not supply, do they regain idealization for a previously discarded partner? or once they believe that partner can not provide the perfect relationship, they will never return to thinking they could

[@samvaknin]

They hoover but much less frequently. As borderlines, if the former partner made them feel unsafe or betrayed them, they won't hoover.

[@anne-marieconn9048]

Thanks so much. I apologize for asking the question twice. I couldn’t find my original comment so assumed it never posted.

[@officialstace2634]

Masterpiece

[@nafissforghani3866]

great video

[@cookiequeen2145]

I’m so sorry x

[@RandoBrando-h2r]

I love 💕 borderlines

[@LaOccultista]

Once a borderline… always a borderline? Dr.Vaknin ? Because I still feel like one 😅

[@samvaknin]

BPD has a good prognosis. Search the BPD playlist.

[@LaOccultista]

Thank you...I was diagnosed with bipolar 1.. about ten years ago, but used to be borderline in my teenage years at least that is what another psychiatrist said but it progressed into cylcothomania then later bipolar 1. I will look at some more borderline videos! Anyway, my life has been such a chaotic roller coaster of self-destructiveness for the most part and getting overwhelmed by "engulfment anxiety" where I push the ones who try to get too close to me away(only in intimate relationships) and also blowing up good jobs, Lol...but at least I know why and can treat it somewhat! Always look forward to your videos...@@samvaknin

[@LaOccultista]

great i have the best of both worlds then, i see ... wonderful!!! lmao @@enraged1584

[@slowedpolska]

Professor, I have a question - if all the character traits fit perfectly into covert borderline, but there are suicide thoughts, what's a possible other diagnosis?

[@samvaknin]

Covert Borderline. The Borderline part taking over for a while. Watch the covert borderline playlist.

[@pipopipo6477]

Can a covert BPD be emotionally abused by the BPD? Or can you even say that they abuse each others simultaneously?

[@samvaknin]

Different types of abuse.

[@revolutionaryfrog]

Do you think it's possible to make it work and not cheat/be cheated on in this type of relationship? I think I am a covert bpd man with a bpd women. Whenever we fight she blocks me and goes out to drink with her female friends but I fear she is out cheating and lying when she comes back. Is there any way to tell if she is being faithful?

[@light544]

Is it possible for covert borderlines (or bpds in general) to transition into full narcissists? Since you claim cluster B has no type consistency, and if a bpd child failed to become a narcissist, could they theoretically achieve that state later in life, or is this impossible?

[@samvaknin]

Covert borderlines are a variant of narcissists.

[@cinsifrit9860]

Oh my god, I have very certain traits of covert borderline however I'm not fully like that.

[@Refriedbeans34]

Does covert borderline always end up with other borderlines and narcissists or does he fair well with healthy people? And if he were to find himself and healthy relationship does it work out in the long term?

[@Dailyprophet777]

Personally no it will never work out long term because there will always be the splitting it can last a good few years but shame sh#t different person. And yes like attracts like although we never know who's narcissistic or who's borderline because we wear mask but it's soon identified we have met another of our sort. I wouldn't know what a healthy relationship is because borderlines are always needing drama if it's healthy it's boring. I'm not sam obviously he may tell you more in a professional way but being a covet borderline narcasist myself I'm only telling you from my personal opinion hope it helps.

[@marilynbrowman5520]

Never works out because they have no concept of healthy relatioships

[@anne-marieconn9048]

Covert borderline is not healthy so would not make it very far with a healthy person. I know they sound healthier in some ways, but having traits of borderline, narcisisst, and psychopath is a pretty bad combination in a partner. In my (limited but unpleasant) experience I found they are able to be emotionally controlled and may seem healthy during the idealization phase but as soon as they become triggered and the need for control sets in it’s not a fun ride. They are quite critical. Ruthlessly critical and get offended if you defend yourself. They really believe their criticism is only meant to help you and should be taken as such. And once they start to devalue and take on psychopathic traits it is extremely painful. They can have a strong desire to punish you, carry it out in very cruel ways, and stand emotionless at your devastated reaction because, well, you deserved it. I don’t imagine a healthy person would even get to that point before running far away.

[@Refriedbeans34]

What happens after a borderline tries to Hoover the covert borderline?

[@Dailyprophet777]

It's only for revenge or if we can still get something but being honest we wouldn't waste our breath unless we haven't got someone new we will try to get a borderline covert borderline back but no one is a winner here either 1 or both may emotionally collapse depends I guess. Hope this helps

[@anne-marieconn9048]

I would constantly walk away impulsively after splitting and then come back a few days later when I split back again to seeing him in the positive light. We would always make up…until the next time. At the end this happened very frequently. I would leave, come back after few days, and within a day he would trigger me and I would split and leave again. I think that was hovering on my part. If he was at first resistant, I would come on stronger or sweeter until he agreed. Very toxic pattern.

[@pipopipo6477]

Did you ever heard of covert BPDs becoming completely asexual/aromatic after being injured by a BPD (where they had lived trough the most intense, crazy sexual/romantic experience of their life’s)?

[@samvaknin]

Yes. Exactly like the narcissist, they can switch to cerebral after a collapse.

[@andreal.1666]

@@samvakninBest decision ever to switch and use my brain! 😂🙋🏻‍♀️

[@greys1355]

Thank you💞

[@justjamie7577]

I recently watched a video about how much emotion neglect happens in daycare. This is the first generation where most children grew up in daycare. I suspect that's why we have a generation of borderlines, aka rainbow haired social justice warriors.

[@anne-vc7bg]

Maybe you should look at the other generations, too. Daycares aren't grandma's house for golden only children, but they are good for kids due to peer interaction, organization, and activities that allow attainment of positive outcomes. Rainbowheads are the outcome of their Karen SAHM, deadbeat dads with their second families, Woodstock grandmothers and NamVet grandpas. Daycares are lifesavers, for most kids. Like old folks homes - it's the peers, the safety of rutine and option of activities that allow attainment of positive outcomes. What do you consider better for a preschooler: playing on a playground in daycare with peers, or sitting still and quiet during Mommy's Mimosa bookclub brunches. It's Andre Green's hords of walking dead that lay siege upon the child from all sides that infected them - daycares are refugee camps (in this stupid zombie movie themed comparison that hints what was on TV last night).

[@justjamie7577]

@@anne-vc7bg babies don't interact with peers. I never said preschool I said daycare.

[@anne-vc7bg]

@@justjamie7577 English is my second language so I googled the difference between daycare, kindergarten and preschool: "Daycares typically cater to children between 18 months old and three years old. Preschool is usually intended for four-year-olds that are one year away from starting kindergarten. Note that some pre-K programs do accept children younger than four." Newborn is 0-1month, baby till 12months of age. And separation/individualization is up to 18months. So... Did we have to clarify on anything or expand to maternity leave length? Maybe to other countries where daycare before the end of maternity leave is normal and standard. Again: I'm not so pro-daycare as I'm against parents being completely off leash regarding children by default.

[@anne-vc7bg]

@@lw4294 that's lovely. Would you like to share your opinion on daycares and their impact on toddlers that manifest through hair color in early adulthood, too? Maybe a viewpoint of different daycare centers e.g. a conservative christian daycare with emphasis on religion compared to secular ones, public or private or small business type. And since today's video is an excerpt reiterating that BPD is from intermittent mothering not dead mothering, I apologize for my mismatched response, though I stand by it and am open to course correcting into discussing if the toddler combines a good and bad primary care giver and daycare employee into an intermittent 'mother'. Generally kids aren't fully isolated in the sense of only interacting with one adult, and we shorthand mother when we talk about primary caregivers, which daycare employees are almost, but not (depending on the length of daycare).

[@justjamie7577]

@@anne-vc7bgregardless what Google says , in the U.S. daycare is any institutional child care for any age minor. We also have adult daycare for adults with disabilities and/or the elderly. There are in-home daycares that takes place in the home of the provider . This home setting does not guarantee children will get the attention they need. There are nannies who care for children in the child's home but the are not required to have any training or qualifications. In the U.S. nannies are just babysitters and not necessarily well known to family. In the U.S an employer is required to hold your job for 3months after having a baby. This is when most mothers go back to work. Some go back at 6weeks. Babies who are in the hands who see them as a job or a paycheck don't turn out well.

[@NikitaArora12]

After screwing up my head for 2 hours and stalking my ex and breaking my new year's resolution not to stalk them... I am back to the prof's videos. 🥹