Covert Borderline, Classic Borderline - Psychopaths?

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The covert borderline is a new subtype of Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) more common among men. It is different to the classic and to the shy or quiet subtypes. Both the Covert and the Classic act out while the shy or quiet acts in. The covert borderline borrows features from the classic narcissist and from the primary psychopath. The classic variant is grandiose and reacts as a secondary psychopath would to stress and ego dystony.

[@Pgmcos]

You my friend are an absolute psychological genius I am a 58 year old surgeon who finally heard myself to perfection through your description of covert borderline . I feel I have evolved over last four years but this new self awareness will make my path one without doubt my friend . Your knowledge is absolutely amazing. Thank you

[@pipopipo6477]

Hey Matthew, I'm 42 and had just the exact same realisation! What do you think was the trigger for you? In my case I think it has a lot to do with never fully felt loved by my mother. I rarely got any motherly affection by her which made me crave unconditional love from women throughout my entire life...

[@Pgmcos]

@@pipopipo6477 thank you for reply . I think and I guess know my mother was a borderline for certain and the insecurities in gave me cost me but I am positive now , single father , and very happy . I realized the romantic deal wasn’t in my tea leaves

[@sophiebenisti3625]

Israeli intelligence at work.

[@llewmatthews4828]

What does you being a surgeon have to do with anything 😅

[@charingcross7945]

Sophie, love that comment...priceless!

[@lynnscott4882]

Afraid of abandonment AND intimacy. Yes.

[@mennaraouf4263]

ironically yes😂😓

[@peace-now]

Simple. Get a blonde puppy.

[@joannwood2854]

I hate you, don’t leave me -when I heard that title it was an “aha” for me ❤️‍🩹

[@bobsidog]

102:40 Covert borderline Effortful control Attention seeking through a childlike neediness Approach/avoidance repetition compulsion Object Impermanence/inconstancy Seeks perfect love/intimacy Egocentric perception of reality

[@rabinraj15]

Tq👍🏽

[@amaalhudaithy7531]

You are absolutely brilliant. I never heard anyone explains borderline like this. Very informative and engaging. Thank you

[@samsonsarabi8719]

Key point: covert borderline pretends that he/she is humble and inferior to seek attention and support from his/her partner but in deep layers and in reality they think that they are superior than you.

[@marlanaferro1481]

Borderlines are complicated, overly emotional, sensitive psychopaths - if that makes any sense. Psychopaths *range* on a spectrum. Human beings are complex creatures. Childhood trauma can cause a dramatic shift in one's psyche. Once that catastrophic "shift" occurs, one's entire emotional landscape begins to slowly deteriorate, thus creating psycho-emotional disturbances. There are different types of psychopaths.

[@siahulsey4856]

Why do you perpetuate hate when all anybody really needed was love and that’s why the people are all messed up because they didn’t get it. What are you even trying to say and what or are you saying because I am very offended because I am a borderline it’s your attitude that makes this world a horrible place to be for vulnerable people so shame on you as what I say to you if I offended you I apologize but guess what you offended me and your plane won’t apologize to me so that is not OK.

[@Rakibrown111]

Or maybe they are just better than you and because you can’t hack it they pussyfoot around your ego pretending to be less than they are. Dipshit comment.

[@3jesus3christ3]

​@@siahulsey4856may you point me to the hate, i don't see it

[@ricperry8743]

I saw it​@@3jesus3christ3

[@fffffff6822]

Omg, it makes much more sense now about that difficulty of knowing what youre feeling. I dont know if shes borderline or narcissistic but the emotions she expresses for me are always contradicting, she loves me and cant stand me, she feels as though im the reason everything in her life falls apart but i am also the cure for that. She misses me but also is glad she dodged a bullet. Its like she has a positive emotion, but then quickly gets pessimistic about it and becomes angry with herself and the world because she anticipates that it will all end badly, might as well ruin it herself. Im not mentally strong enough to manage this rollercoaster of feelings. I used to love her so much, i still love her now, but i dont want to.

[@SoapsLuvr]

These NUANCES help me more than could be imagined because everything about my Cluster B family of origin is nuanced with complexities and covertness, which is why I have taken on such burdens & suffering that no one could ever explain. Because of the default patterns inflicted upon me, I have drawn in more of the same throughout life. Knowing what I’m dealing with now helps my recovery. The typical explanations from other so-called experts don’t always match because of these nuances. Though I deal with covert Cluster Bs - the damage is still quite profound but suffered by me in ways not always visible. I often hear about behaviors of the overt which doesn’t match my experience in many ways yet I suffer greatly too. Please keep these explanations coming & THANK YOU Sam!

[@phantomkate6]

@@sylviaking8866 Type 'cluster b' into your preferred search engine and it will give you a short summary faster than I can write it here

[@atropabelladonna4752]

This man is absolutely genius ❤

[@mslillian4232]

I absolutely agree

[@kwagg6991]

@@mslillian4232 0 OP 0p00pppo]pop opppoppooppooppoppoppopp]app oppo

[@AllisonJames810]

Stop giving him narcissistic supply!! 😉

[@nclmbin8]

Absolut

[@DanChad-er9lh]

He ranks alongside the marquis de Sade

[@rachellewis6383]

I’m definitely a classic borderline. I’ve always thought my husband was a narcissist but the covert borderline is spot on for him. We are trauma bonded for sure. We compliment our inner child’s well. I can feel upset listening to Sam but he’s a genius helps me understand why I do what I do.

[@neilw259]

Rachel Lewis specifically what are the differences between narcissist and covert borderline please, I’m trying to understand this.

[@mushu889]

We are both in the same boat sis... My fiance I believe is a narcissist.

[@catherinepattinson4756]

This is my ex. I thought he was just a malignant narcissist/ secondary psychopath. But he may be a covert borderline with a psychopathic overlay. Where were you Sam when I met this deceptive dangerous dude who was a wolf in sheep’s clothing! I so wish I had this knowledge so I could see through his mirroring .. and avoid him!

[@Rakibrown111]

I think mirroring was classic and psychopaths, not borderline. At least in the video.

[@davidjoshua1075]

I love your dry sense of humor...you have me laughing constantly.

[@NkNk-vg8fc]

I especially Love your Borderline / Psychopath videos! Thank you 🙏

[@coles7811]

37:35 this has been my life for the past 2 years. I have never heard someone explain her behaviors in such poetic detail. I can still hear her saying, "I'm sorry but I have to be selfish right now, I'm just trying to survive," and then proceed to engage in every thing you mentioned.

[@valerierobertson8303]

I would like see you do a video about the differences between having CPSTD and being Covert Borderline.

[@samvaknin]

CPTSD victims are indistinguishable from patients with CLASSIC BPD.

[@freerangeboogie7293]

Fascinating

[@catdancedoverthemoon6314]

Valerie Robertson I’ve been diagnosed with CPTSD and Borderline... question I’ve asked is really which came first? The chicken or the egg? Or is it CPTSD alone and I’ve been given an added diagnosis. I’ve completed DBT therapy with 100% attendance and completed all the homework. 😂 Mindfulness is a component of DBT which has helped me greatly. I truly feel most individuals would benefit from DBT, regardless of a diagnosis .... Personally, I have stable long term and healthy friendships and family members. The healthy friendship component was a focus I had in my twenties when I realized all I did with my friends was party ... so, I spoke with my closest and we added healthy activities. That’s just how is it for me now at 50. I’ve learned how to navigate myself very well within some of my family dynamics with a couple more “challenging” family members. (Who am I to label anyone? 😂 Challenging for me is what it was.) Romantic relationships though ..yikes! My friends try to encourage me to date .., I rarely will. (One date last year. Lol) one pattern I have had with romantic relationships is this ... I go from rarely if ever drinking to drinking every time I’m with the romantic partner. You can’t be yourself or learn who others are intoxicated. I completely quit drinking to counter this 😅 and I have always been a believer in friendship first ... yet, I repeatedly break my own rule ... (codependency & boundaries) Regarding Codependency... I have open discussions with my closest friends on this one (I have four of them in my inner circle) because there is a definite connection between the two as well as mutualities. (I have strong codependent traits too) It’s another relationship dynamic and it is important to me that I have balance within my friendships. I don’t want people bending backwards for me ... and I want them to feel comfortable with calling me out on any of my bs. (That was a challenging learning curve that one .. mastered it now.. I sit with it for a moment... do my best to look at myself and have a discussion with them about it.) I am still on a wait list for CPTSD treatment at a women’s sexual trauma clinic. I have a counsellor I speak with once a week. While I wait for the next phase of treatment I study and practice the skills and tools I learned with DBT and read books and blogs of those who have now been diagnosed as BPD recovered or remission. My last romantic relationship developed with my life coach (he had a fling with another client after me). He had me convinced I was a toxic covert narcissist... we never had a fight or conflict and we ended well, so to get that feedback after was a huge blow. I became suicidal because I believed I was so toxic but I couldn’t see I was and wouldn’t ever see it. Interesting enough, he said the same about the women after me and about his ex before me. Spiritually and Psychological mind games and gaslighting are really tough to sort out in your head once you’ve let someone else in there.

[@user-wf2tv4jl6h]

@@catdancedoverthemoon6314 That is a long letter. I didn't read it. But answering your question - only *you* remember what came first - an egg or a chicken. I think remembering the traumas makes the healing. I was scared by something in my early childhood. That caused post-traumatic stress. So unconsciously I've decided that its safer so stay symbiotic with my mom. (so the crisis of 3 y.o. went wrong) and that caused BPD symptoms (not sure if i was diagnosed right with it). Yeah, i was traumatized later, after my something-like-bpd started developing. I was 'different' and didnt fit in class, i felt rejected and started to avoid ppl, got social anxiety. But the most important is to remember *early childhood trauma.* That's my experience.

[@user-wf2tv4jl6h]

​@@samvaknin if it's indistinguishable then why would they do it as a separate diagnosis? (I mean C-PTSD) if you, psychiatrists, can't see the difference what for do you separate these phenomena?

[@samgcrazychickenlady3041]

My ex is definitely a covert borderline. Thank you for explaining the differences.

[@tweetysour5460]

I feel like im shifted from classic borderline to covert Borderline after puberty and after i learned how to identify my emotions ,i though i was deeper in my healing journey ,but it feels like i just swept to another Kategory

[@susanbarbini4590]

Literally! covert narcissistic borderline ..it’s amazing how this describes the last 16 years exactly ☹️

[@nclmbin8]

Hope things have improved

[@paulineschalper3784]

Thank you Sam! I am female, which always caused me to doubt I was borderline, when I read about the clinginess, acting out etc. but this description of the covert borderline absolutely hits the nail on the head!!

[@kimalexander8276]

This is brilliant Sam. I am listening to this many times to fully digest. Thank you for your exceptional work and your sharing. It is a huge help to me. Richard always says to listen to you and I am so glad I have taken his very sound advice. Kim🌹

[@melbadreux2574]

Thank you sir for this video ! I'm a classic borderline and everything you said about this type of borderline is true and I relate perfectly to it. I'm in the phase of my life where I am figuring out about my life and my identity. I want to change myself to lead a healthy life and I believe realizing what I have is the first step towards change.

[@melbadreux2574]

@@joannelewis8038 It's a personality disorder so seek help from a professional. Consult a psychiatrist or a psychologist. .

[@aya34455]

I love that you talk in details..i really appreciate that you spend more than hour takling,thank you😗❤

[@hopemadison3241]

Phenomenal explanations with the compare and contrast of ASPD, NPD in your description of classic/covert BPD. Genuis, Sam Vaknin. Love the expression, Thank you

[@actressin09]

There are lyrics to a great song somewhere in here...thank you for the continued profound insight Mr Vaknin.

[@isabelmota3759]

This is absolutely accurate and brilliant. How I wish to be your student.

[@summerdaze1976]

I was diagnosed BPD. But I have been told I don't "show" the signs. I'm guessing I'm a quiet Borderline. My bio mom actually kidnapped and then abandoned me when I was 2. My father got custody of me when I was 4. I have a severe fear of being left. Then I entered into a 23yr relationship with a typical NPD male. He just did a final discard in Jan and moved in with the new supply the same day he left me and our children. Needing to say I hated myself and fought everything in me to keep living. I am lucky that I have a therapist and psychiatrist who have kept me grounded. I am healing. But I have always hated myself. It's so hard to even want to like myself but I need to so I can raise our last 2 kids (16 and 12) the youngest being a girl. I don't want her to feel the emotional termoil that I grew up and live with now

[@kimberlyyetta2332]

Have you tried talk therapy to your inner child ? You can help heal yourself by telling your younger self that you won't leave her . that she is safe. I have been trying that kind of thing lately. ♡

[@summerdaze1976]

@@kimberlyyetta2332 Ive tried talk therapy. It didn't really help me. I've been in cognitive therapy for almost a year and that has helped a great deal. I'm trying to love myself. It's very hard but every day is a little step closer to loving who I am

[@Lizpolygigiblissgirl]

Male “narcissism” is normal male behavior and is a built in defense against female hypergamy... That is, normal female behavior of always looking to upgrade. These intrinsic behaviors of both sexes can be mitigated in healthy adults to make a relationship work. When unchecked, these behavior patterns are eventually disastrous.

[@tulinbeyduz920]

i left my narcissistic partner when my daughter was 18 months old . best decision i ever did to be honest .. much easier living by myself

[@Lizpolygigiblissgirl]

@@A.T.-om9ku you did. Don’t you remember?

[@zandraleezee]

Always amazing/informative, but this was beyond almost everything you have done. I feel so blessed to be part of the group you are imparting this knowledge to - probably similar to how others felt in 1995. Thank you!

[@miriamevans5200]

You just described my mother perfectly. I am an only child, have been no contact for 25 years. It was like living in a horror film. The classic is in love with love. Thank you, for this info. Helps alot. Is it common for a borderline mother to stalk her adult child? Can medication work to stabilize to mood swings? Is this a chemical brain problem? I wish I could have taken you home to meet my mother about 35 years ago. Nobody believed me. You nailed this.

[@Rakibrown111]

Nice! This fits me quite well, not going to diagnose myself but if I have anything it would be covert borderline. So interesting, well done, you are by far the most competent expert in these things I’ve come across. Can’t wait to watch the rest. My hope is to see what I am blind to and to hopefully work on what can be worked on, being grandiose I obviously believe anything is possible but also I’m 44 and I’ve learned hard lessons pertaining to actual limitations. It’s a weird dual state to both know your own weird afflictions, trying to turn them into positives but at the same time knowing you are limited. Your limits are a reality but your belief in your unlimited potential shines so much brighter. So you end up having to learn to respect the limitations begrudgingly while accepting the bright light of infinite potential as just a part of your psyche. I do believe in love, I’m a romantic, everything kind of fits. Even the psychopathic protector, I don’t worry about danger because that part of me would just take over if I was ever in danger, has saved mine and someone else’s life, so can be good. What a mysterious messy mystery we all are.

[@yeahGETSUMM]

I'm a woman but the covert borderline diagnosis fits me more than classic or quiet. Yet, I still identify with some of the same aspects of classic. When I take a huge emotional blow I just kinda fade into this.. shell. There is nothing there during that time. I don't care about anything or myself, but the pain is gone. I know it's bad, but the emotions are just so intense and then I fill like I'm going to die if I dont cut me off from my myself..if that makes sense. I also get extremely bored, painfully bored. I can't seem to dissociate from the feeling of intense boredom and emptiness when it happens, which seems weekly. I cant stay put during those moments. I need a big big distraction. Bpd has always felt like my primary personality yet there were always areas that bled into overt NPD and primary psycopathy. I thought for awhile maybe I just had comorbid personality disorders. But the covert bpd that you describe in this video fits me like a tailored suit. Thank you.

[@shellae1922]

This is pretty accurately where I am. High I boredom, low on empathy, calculated predatory, goal oriented, with the rest being classic borderlinelike or admixed. Also in a perpetual dance with psychopath in some aspect of my life. They are the most challenging and least boredom producing. High risk as they are dangerous/exciting.

[@andreeabarbulescu4103]

So mind-blowing. I thought that my boyfriend is a convert narcissist likr my prevously two ones. But no. He is a covert borderline. Wow. My mother, my grandma and two female friends are classic and shy borderline. And thanks to Sam's videos and book I discovered I'm an invert narcissist. Boy, this is so much fun. However, it all makes sense now in my life and I know now how to deal with these people and myself included. Thank you so so much, Sam Vaknin!

[@andreeabarbulescu4103]

Sorry for the mispells. I was too excited after watching this video :)).

[@pennydehority3530]

That explains a lot.. Thank You!.. for taking your time to help others. It is appropriated! 😊

[@keeskaas2369]

PERFECT!!!!! I always thought I was a narcist. Thank you so much for explaining this too me. You hit the needle on the head with this one. And as always, opposites attracts.

[@kimtaff1932]

It sounds like fearful-avoidant attachment.

[@zenwolf1046]

It sounds like the covert bpd would be expressed well in the Taylor Swift song "Look what you make me do".

[@maryjoe2311]

Thanks Sam,that was a comprehensive take. May you be blessed more for educating us.i really appreciate effort and wisdom.

[@HumanFund]

Wow. I am a 40 year old man and finally I seem to have found the "category" I belong to. I watched the whole video with multiple rewinds, almost everything hit too close to home. I have been diagnosed twice with depression (because I'd only seek help when things were totally screwed and most doctors would ask me questions from a checklist). Two years ago, my then therapist told me about BPD. I did not know what it was but it seemed to explain a lot of my behaviors. However, there were some classic BPD behaviors that I simply don't have and my diagnosis was "BPD traits" as opposed to disorder.. I live outwardly successful life and work very hard, so the classic BPD or depression didn't fit 100% (among other reasons). This explains ALMOST entirety of my personality. I am almost shaking while writing this. Only single thing I don't seem to have is that hypochondriac aspect. Thank you so much for doing this amazing youtube videos. Stumbled on your channel today and have already spent several hours watching your vidoes. Going to look into what are the treatment/cure options

[@elyseiovino9473]

Thank you for this video. I believe I identify more With classic but was in a relationship with someone who I thought was more narcissistic, but now feel like it meets the criteria of a covert borderline very closely. This was the most heartbreaking and painful relationship of my life (though I probably say that about all of them at the time). This one in particular had so many beautiful elements but also so many dark elements that rendered me feeling crazier than ever. I’ve been no contact for a few days now. Would love a video on possible borderline v covert borderline relationships.

[@agiejones7651]

Incredible, Thank You Kindly for the clarity, so many lights switched on. Thanx Again 🙏🙌

[@Urbanized77]

Dear Sam...I truly love your work and your person, one day would like very much to make a therapy session with you if possible. Thank you forever. No doubt you are the most advanced connoisseur of psychology today. Thank you forever because of your work and techings and immense good will to help people making so much precious information available. You're the best Dr. Vaknin! בברכה

[@samvaknin]

I provide counselling, not therapy. I am not a licensed therapist.

[@charmee4045]

Thank you for describing my life for the past five years, fortunately I was discarded in a text with no explanation. I get it now. This has been invaluable to my healing.

[@ginevrapalmeri8141]

Thank you very much for the video. I was wondering if it is possible for a borderline person to switch between the mechanisms of the two different subtypes you have discribed. For example, you have a covert borderline acting not so rationally and being socially anxious when he gets emotionally exhausted or a classic borderline that becomes more goal oriented once he realizes he can get affection-admiration, hence gain some kind of stability by pursuing a certain path. In short, is there some kind of fluidity or a possible variation over time and under certain circumstances?

[@samvaknin]

Yes, they can switch back and forth. There is no type constancy.

[@danvorosmarty9854]

@@samvaknin would you say the switching between the two manifests in a temporal way? Like as in a cycle, or several layers of overlapping cycles? Or just completely at random? Or is it more like a soup of the two sets of characteristics that mixes together in their personality as two different inclinations or "modes", and certain behaviors are expressed/deployed but just situationally according to whatever context exists in each unique situation? Meaning, individuals could be, say, 30% classic BPD and 70% covert BPD, or whatever ratio, by nature, and it's a spectrum where each person would have a unique spot on the graph according to whatever their particular unique disposition was? Very curious to understand how the two categories might "mix" in an individual. Thanks.

[@samvaknin]

@@danvorosmarty9854 I covered this question. Do your homework.

[@danvorosmarty9854]

@@samvaknin oh sorry, I watched the whole video but did not hear the answer specifically. I'll re-watch it and see if I can figure it out, thanks. I did think of a follow-up though which is would it be possible for an actually-at-root classic BPD, to essentially take on a covert kind of attitude as a sort of cartoonish idea they have in their minds of what it would mean to NOT be BPD? Or what they might consider the necessary attitude to insulate themselves from their BPD? In other words thinking to themselves "This would be a lot easier if I took on these psychopathic qualities to fight my battles for me"? In my particular experience, I see both sets of characteristics at different times, or even contained in the same actions, with it being seemingly impossible to discern the actual intent (for example, if they say cheat, would it be to hurt the other person or hurt themselves? How is this determined? Is it just what they self report?) Another way to put this might be what would you say about a Covert BPD who self-reports an internal Classic BPD? For example, they merely *say* they "hate themselves" but in reality there is a degree of deception there bc they know they don't actually hate themselves. So that also makes me wonder if it could be more of a distinction in how we perceive them, more so than a genuine objective difference? (I guess I'm asking what the objective measure, if any, there is for determining this outside of their own self reporting, especially if we can't really trust them at face value? Or are you saying it's just what is apparent through pure observation and and if you intuit it then it's probably whichever you think it is? I am sure there are people who are pretty solidly one type or the other, but this is confusing me because the example I'm thinking of seems to have both simultaneously in the very same actions and behaviors (hence why I'm wondering if it's a perception thing)? Thanks again. .

[@samvaknin]

@@danvorosmarty9854 I covered your questions in other videos. Write back only after you have watched them all. Clear?

[@RobertSimms]

Thank you for this very thought provoking and insightful video. You are very inspiring to one who likes to find and create peace in a disordered world, and one who is working on himself rather diligently, and I might add, with a lot of help. ♡&☮︎

[@samsonsarabi8719]

They see relationships as a temporary experience and they maintain fake intimacy until they can tolerate and then they escape and vanish before her/his partner can understand how much insane they are!

[@ohsusieq1988]

Just know it’s not You, it’s them... a child fear factor to run. 😩

[@redkingsingh]

Facts bro!!!

[@aussiemadz3119]

qqo

[@aussiemadz3119]

qqo

[@siahulsey4856]

You know what their lives are full of pain and you wanna call them and saying because you didn’t have enough time to understand because you didn’t have enough understanding or acceptance, or love in your heart to be kind to another person, or to realize that other kind of people exist. That’s a problem with the world and you’re part of it because you’re in it so you can be the problem you can be a solution. I don’t want to judge you, but I’m a borderline I take everything that you say very offensively because I can see how you just want to put the finger at somebody who hurt you, but that person has been hurt. It’s called a cycle of abuse so be kind.

[@novakjovanovic7715]

Ingenious. I'm definitely classic borderline. Though being bipolar too complicates things. Masterfully explained, in every necessary detail.

[@RobertSimms]

Thank you for this video, that is so broad and encompassing to include so many aspects of one’s personality. I find aspects of myself, here, and would like to find healing so that a stable love might be possible in the future. I wish you published a “zodiac” of sorts, that would tell me with whom compatibility might best be found. Then, again, it might be impossible; but this search-it is life, itself, perhaps!

[@terri1455]

I found a lot of answers for questions I had in this video . Great video!!

[@xyzimagenes]

an HSP personality video would be very interesting

[@ashleemay33]

As a borderline some of his insights are hard to accept but I absolutely love this man and the work he does. It helps me understand myself and how I affect others, what the hell went wrong, and what coping mechanisms I can improve on and what things and situations to avoid.

[@neilw259]

CBPD and classic narcissists have a different sustenance as you pointed out: the CBPD craves love whereas the narcissist craves attention/adulation etc. Are there any other differences between the two personality disorders? Also, can CBPD be a loner who prefers his own company, or is he necessarily sociable and gregarious in disposition?

[@elfglow4557]

I want to have family and friends very small close group. That’s my dream. Don’t need many people at all and am introverted. But I wish I had few people who are like family

[@pamethyst8197]

I started listening to these videos because I was looking for coping strategies to help maintain a semi-healthy relationship with my narcissistic partner, however, after listening for little over a week I've now diagnosed myself as being a classic borderline co-narcissitic secondary psychopath. Watched "nothingness the cure for narcissism" - don't feel cured but did feel strangely elated while watching, I think I went full on into delirium laughing maniacally while belting down the motorway. Is there an actual cure for these illnesses? Can they be cured or rather just managed with medication and psychotherapy? Also what's your stance on anti depressants Sam? For all I've had my frame of reality smashed to smithereens this past few days I must say I have found your videos extremely helpful and informative, thanks for the extreme reality check - I think I needed it.

[@zsuzso7]

I think assuming that we also have our part, responsibility in being in certain situations is the first step on a long 'camino' to know learn how to exist in healthy relationships or any other connections. Are these behavioral models ilnesses? Maybe, but we can also consider them lessons to learn, where the goal is to be a mature, free person

[@mary-anneewanek9494]

Thank you for approaching this topic so analytically. I really appreciate this broken down.

[@nefertariwhite]

genius genius! as usual.. and you grow more charming w that humor!

[@mariaalvarenga2275]

Wow I am impressed by the accurate description of covert borderline 😮 Wow Dr Vaknin you are amazing in your research and teachings! I couldn’t have explained better this even though I lived with a covert borderline… it’s like you were describing him!!!!

[@estabravo]

This finally makes so much sense... I knew it wasn't classic BPD my traits were aligned with. My fascination with languages and ultimately unbarred expression, my pursuit for the perfect love, and various other things...Wow. Thank you for shedding light on this. This classification seems somewhat covert itself.

[@michele4040]

Thank you for sharing this. This is like a college lecture. I appreciate this

[@YouAreBeautifulINSIDE]

As always so absolutely spot on professor!! You are genius!!

[@inhimwelive2554]

Such an insightful analysis - thank you Prof Sam. I was particularly astonished by how you perfectly described the conmen of the spiritual world - the guru, the false prophets, the scammers of the so called prosperity gospel churches .,

[@JessicaBrown-kd1pj]

Professor, I used to cut for one simple reason. To give the immense, intense, relentless, sheer emotional pain a face, a name, an outlet. Maybe to give it a rival, definitely to give it expression, a voice I suppose.

[@inhimwelive2554]

Ignorance is not a bliss, we have to keep learning in order to survive and co-exist with complex humans

[@Marina_kern]

Shocking feeling when coming to the channel to learn more about my narcissistic ex, l can't stop listening to lectures where I learn a lot about myself..😮

[@Xand3rCha0s360]

I know this video is 4 years old but I have never heard anything more accurate and so humanly-approached of a description of BPD in my life. I feel like even now this disorder is so heavily demonized and you don't even include the stigmas as fact! I love your content

[@noone.7000]

I see myself as a covert narcissist but everything you said about classic borderline is describing me .

[@erinlarsen188]

Dude same it fucking sucks lol I feel like so many people see borderlines as complete pieces of shit but I really try so hard to be different.

[@dianapaul8712]

The most brilliant man! Your videos and articles are life saving. Thank You for all you do!

[@dwrigh18]

1:10:00 very interesting nuance of the classic borderline, yes it creates a mess and its confusing b/c you get the impression cancelling things or breaking things up preemptively is a selfish act but its morseo a low self-esteem issue and fear of rejection.

[@sunnyclouds1372]

Questions? What is the difference between a covert borderline and a cover narcissist? And what happens when someone rejects a male covert borderline? Do covert borderlines hover and reidealize? I was certain that the person was a covert narcissist, but now I think more likely a covert borderline. That was great information!! I wish they had more info on borderlines available.

[@meagenjaeger5003]

Yusssss a new video 🙌🏻

[@JohnSmith....]

you just described my ex , borderlines can create enormous havoc

[@raphaellavelasquez8144]

I know you are but what am I?

[@samvaknin]

You took the words out of my mouth.

[@j7220]

I’ve heard you say that covert borderlines are pro-social. With that said, can covert borderlines be predatory too?

[@samvaknin]

Rarely. They truly value love.

[@Give_Me_The_Night]

Thankyou so much Sam, this is very enlightening.

[@PsychoLOSZKA1]

Great video Thank You❤

[@covvardice8296]

Sam, recently I have discovered your channel and it has been an excellent resource for me, I am struggling to determine where I fall myself. I found this because I was so unhappy in my relationship, and was convinced my partner was a narcissist, but the more I listen the more I feel like I fall into a space between borderline and covert borderline, I also have extreme codependent behaviors. Do you take clients? I have looked for a therapist that I am able to not just practically ignore once I explain what I understand and my issues that I don’t, I am constantly stuck in my own head, I have adult diagnosed adhd. I’d really appreciate an opportunity to express my mental processes and confusion and hear your opinion. I’ve listened to almost all of your content, and it constantly has me questioning which I fall into, I know it’s one or the other, just not sure what or how to discern.

[@shinybee1263]

What happens when a covert borderline's children grow up, no longer love unconditionally (or as they're growing up, still love unconditionally but begin thinking critically and judging also)? Does covert bpd see growing/grown children as threats? Are they viable as enemy figures once they are grown? Does a parent with covert bpd try to keep their children small (whether by focusing on old memories or controlling their behavior)? This is not a question about any one person in particular, but wondering about what many parents expect of children and how they adapt (or fail to adapt) as their children grow, and how that may apply to the covert presentation of bpd.

[@tilliesmith9347]

Much Love to you. 🎉🎉🎉. Another great video 😁.

[@leannajimenez2322]

Hi Prof. Vaknin, Apologies for questions two years after this was uploaded. I recently started watching your videos. Two questions: 1) Since there is no type constancy between the proposed diagnosis and classic BPD (all clusterB, etc.); I was confused when you explained the covert borderline loves his children-- does this mean that it is possible for the same person to oscillate and at a time not love his children? 2) Is the suggested subtype and other diagnoses on BPD more dominant in some cases-- and, in turn, when/if someone gets diagnosed, that is based on their current state?

[@olivehiggo]

Yes. Absolutely. Great work and introduction Vaknin, always back every day to see if you have a new video.

[@vikinga40]

Is there any connection With borderline and fibromyalgia in your study?

[@samvaknin]

None.

[@mlee7290]

Fantastic video, very informative.

[@abravall]

Are Narcisists able to experience trauma bond? 🤔

[@samvaknin]

No. Only their victims can and do.

[@shellyificationtx]

My boyfriend is covert borderline 100%. I keep trying to leave him. I finally figured out what his PD is thanks to your vids. We are going to seek out a psychotherapist. What would be the best therapy to integrate himself so we can have a more normal life?

[@samvaknin]

Covert borderlines are part narcissists. Their prognosis is not as good as classic borderlines.

[@vickikritzinger6020]

Oh my word!!!! You are the most cleverest man i know👌👌👌🙏🙏🙏💯✝️🙌

[@trishstewart2166]

My father told me a year before he passed that I needed to stop trying to pursue my mother to love me because she never will. So I don't know what it's like to have a mother's love or affection. So perhaps I am damaged in choosing to partner with covert narcissist. Before I realized this was our problem I would say to him you can't be the bully and the victim. I have known him for 36 years, we've been together for the last 20. There have been times i struggled and thoughts of suicide crept in my mind. A few years ago I came to realize that my partner acts out with tantrums, lies and seeks attention because he can't help it. I know I am in a toxic relationship and we are co-dependant on each other. But I now know he's never been sorry for anything because he doesn't know what that is. I feel awful for him, yes that's right, I feel sad that he couldn't relate. So I choose to stay with him even though he can be insufferable at times. I walk on far less eggshells as I did at one time and my goal is to not walk on any but who knows if that is even a reality for me. That maybe something fused in me from my childhood. I love my partner and made it clear to him I will never give up on us and there isn't anything I can't forgive him for even if he's not sorry. This is a condition he really has no control over. Does that make me sound desperate? Perhaps I am, and yes, I value myself, I know men find me attractive, I will always choose my man even when he doesn't reciprocate it. I am okay with him above me if that's the only place he can feel comfortable with me.

[@noliejones4704]

First of all, I found this video to be absolutely fascinating and answered about a million questions I have had whilst doing my personal research on both BPD and NPD and everything in between, so a huge thank you for that. I do have a question that I didn’t see in the comments, and was only briefly touched in the video; Is it likely for a covert borderline to be physically abusive to his partner, perhaps either if he feels threatened (verbally or emotionally or even intellectually) or if the partner is not adhering to his demands/rules? Also, just wondering your thoughts on this; I saw that many people asked if 2 covert borderlines could be together, etc, and since this is a new diagnosis/subtype or what have you and we’ve nothing to go on yet, how would you SPECULATE the relationship to be like if say, 1 was a strong covert bpd and the other was a fluctuating/mixture of the classic and covert bpd? For instance, could we speculate them constantly bumping heads and disagreeing or do you think they could find some kind of solace in each other and tolerate each other’s shortcomings and whatnot? I know it is largely dependent on the particular people involved, but I’d just like to know a) how likely the union might be to begin with and also b) the likeliness of it being a relationship of deep connection vs a shit show. Thanks again Sam for another mind opening experience, stay safe, be good, and always look both ways before you cross the street.

[@samvaknin]

Good topics for future vids. Thank you.

[@noliejones4704]

Sam Vaknin No prob bob, and let me tell you there is more where that came from. You would have a fucking field day with me if we ever had a session, this brain is a hot mess and I’m certain there is no cure but death itself for the poison that surges through it. I am literally obsessed with watching and learning as much as is available about disorders i possibly/probably have. Unfortunately, I am one of those that refuses to go to a psychologist and just power through on my own and with the help and insight from lovely people like yourself that post these extremely informational and delightfully thorough videos. Anyhow, you didn’t answer my question(s). Do I have to wait for the video to find out the answers? Because patience is not one of my stronger traits and the suspense may literally kill me as the question is a somewhat personal one. My relationship is on some very rocky roads and we are not wearing our seatbelts if you catch my drift. I would love to discuss this more in detail perhaps on a different medium if that would be possible. If not, I guess I will simply wait for the videos assuming I am still around to watch them. Please let me know. Thank you!

[@candyland8903]

so how does the covert bordeline play into the dynamic of a relationship as far as the kind of partner they attract.. like for example normally the dynamic is narcissist/codependent .. but with all these extra labels and categories of the kind of cluster b personality types, i dont know how covert borderline fits in. what kind of partners would the covert bordeine attract then? is it possible for both partners ro be covert borderlines??? any thoughts are welcome since this is a new concept sam is discussing

[@samvaknin]

It is a nonsensical myth. Narcissists are not particularly attracted to any specific type of partner. Give him supply and the narcissist is yours, end of story.

[@candyland8903]

@@samvaknin thank you so much for responding! and that is definitely the pattern i have noticed about narcs and their supply.. they do not seem to care who they are getting it from, just that they are getting it.

[@cocoo1078]

Don’t forget the hell and abuse that partners of pwBPD go through because of them

[@jennijury3796]

I've seen many relationships destroyed by a female with BPD

[@shellylowe6069]

You said the borderline leaves at 45 or calms down.? I know that I feel a lot better then I have. But I still do things that isn't norm, I'm 47. How does it go away as you age? I still have no clue who I am.. what I find that has changed is I'm not running out to find someone or just sex after my breakup, I've been single for a year. I've never done that. But I still don't understand how to connect to others. I just don't get others. Now I have this feer of even tring again.

[@xiaoguangtou6306]

It is scary how accurate he is.

[@kareem1878]

Dr. Vaknin, this is groundbreaking information about the Covert Borderline. Can you please post more videos about the Covert Borderline. Thank you for your time.

[@samvaknin]

Will do.

[@antonioorsini3833]

Hmm this is the closest I've found to my personality. Ironically what happens to me all the time in relationships, I get target by Narcissists, then later on they find out I'm way more dangerous then they thought. It's similar to acting as wounded prey. You allow the predator to come in and stalk you, They even take small bites. When they think they got me, is when I slowly and methodically begin to destroy them. A game of predator, becomes prey.

[@missbcritiques9209]

Yep!!!! 💯💯💯

[@EricaMorgan]

From my experience with a covert borderline I think this is often their perception that people are out to get them and they need to defend themselves from them. But often the things they see as offensive are innocent or minor. The smallest things can trigger them and they feel wounded. But often there was no intent by the other person to hurt them. Your perception is not always reality.

[@faddy24]

@@EricaMorgan That's exactly how I view it, based on my recent unfortunate experience with a woman I really loved. The situation I found myself also caused me to reactively abuse her, to some extent (via text afterwards) by proxy. Once she had been badly triggered by misinterpreting me during what had been a friendly chat, up until she became triggered, it felt like her highly defensive secondary psychopathy came out. Things quickly and shockingly disintegrated between us It was a chilling and traumatic expeirence for me. I guess I was painted black. I'm unable to say with certaintly what her disorder might be but I'd guess somewhere on the BPD spectrum with strong narcissistic traits.

[@naoqueropormeunome2533]

What is difference between Classic Narcicist and Covert Borderline?

[@ryancaribou5546]

Could you please make a video about Quiet Borderline Personality Disorder? Your videos are very informative! Thanks!

[@samvaknin]

I disagree with the need to have such a separate subtype. All Borderlines sometimes internalize their aggression and emotions - and sometimes externalize them. In other words: most Borderlines are sometimes classic and at other times "shy" or "quiet".

[@jbay1845]

I was in an 11 year relationship with a woman who I can safely say now after much research (and in particular this video) is unequivocally a covert borderline. Interesting as noted it is generally men who fall in this category, but though a woman, she had very traditionally masculine interests, and consciously identified much more with her masculine side in many aspects. She grew up primarily with the influence of only her father and brother, which I'd say likely contributed to how this all came to manifest in her. Thank you so very much for your incredible work and presentation of this content 🙏

[@Marta-ct6lr]

Is it possible to be Classic and covert border - as The one person??? My ex has some features from both Classic and covert i think

[@roberttaylor1663]

Dr. Sam, while I appreciate the need to classify and label, I find the introduction of yet another subtype mostly confusing. Why not focus on the traits of the patient in general instead of trying to apply labels? I say this in part because around 80% of all the traits you mentioned here (from all the subtypes) apply to my ex cluster B (I say ex but I know she may attempt a hoover any day!!). You are easily the best internet guru on these matters. Thank you.

[@samvaknin]

Because these two subtypes of Borderline share some traits - but not others. Like the difference between classic and covert narcissists. But of course in practice, we don't care much about the labels! Diagnoses are for getting reimbursed by the insurance companies and HMOs.

[@SoapsLuvr]

No, no and no! The labels are critical to those of us who were born and raised by Cluster Bs! Without the proper labels I had to suffer through age 46 NOT KNOWING what the hell I was dealing with! His labels are paramount in helping people like me recover and try to have some quality of life!

[@samvaknin]

I coined most of these words (hoovering, flying monkeys, narcissistic fleas, many more) because people insisted on "handles". No one remembers that I am the originator of these neologisms because it was such a long time ago (1995).

[@inferno3080]

Wow this cleared up alot for me! Edit! Turns out I'm a covert borderline. Male. At 26:00 up til 27:15! How do I get help? See a therapist?

[@janpalencar628]

@@Johannastairwellstudio it might be also wrong self diagnosis :)

[@kristinakarageorgos8023]

Can you have all three types of borderlines in one person? I remember in one of your videos you talked about borderline personality in different people as a buffet line because every single person is different.. so could this also expand towards the subtypes of borderline being inherently interlinked between one another? Just as you have hypothesized that all personality disorders are interlocked within one another as well at different levels.

[@marileemorinjj]

11:11 time stamp. You just described me to a T. I can have stability but then I flush it and destroy it. Most of the time from a tone of voice that triggers me or a facial expression. I cannot keep a job even if I love doing it if someone speaks to me in a certain tone of voice, generally an aggressive tone, I just cannot go back. I keep jobs for 3-6 months. And generally I try to blow up any relationship every 3 months. I call it self sabatage. But its something else. Ok back to the video. I really like how you speak so intelligently. Some people try to dumb down or water down what they say probably so as not to trigger the person they are talking to. I find it irritating thay they are aware I am intelligent but still speak to me in broad terms. So thank you for the breakdown.

[@journeytohealingwithb7470]

So is it possible for a women to have a big of both of these?. My recent ex seems to fit some of both.

[@samvaknin]

No. She is probably comorbid BPD-NPD.

[@jason3392]

you can have both and they can be turned on with different traumas. you can have the shy trait and evolve into the act out borderline if after the transition someone close passes away or etc. that plus alcohol, weed and etc. to trigger a lost in social constructs used to seem normal.

[@jason3392]

they are new ways of viewing the world and that makes the brain work harder which is great for what i believe will bend our minds to reach common ground

[@erinlarsen188]

Fuck. I've been diagnosed with borderline for years and now recently bipolar 2 but listening to this I think it was a misdiagnosis. It's miserable to live with. I really hope therapy helps me break the cycle.

[@erinlarsen188]

@@freedomfighter9976 big same