If A Polygamist Gets Saved Should They Get Divorced?

This question is NOT just a hypothetical. Missionaries in Africa asked me to answer this and I don't think it's application will be limited to them for too long. It seems to me that the moral slip-slide of our culture is heading toward a time when more and more of us will be confronted with the topic of polygamy.
This is one of my final videos in the series I have done on divorce and remarriage. Here's the playlist with all those videos. • Divorce and Remarriage...
My website BibleThinker.org

[@lenguajesdelamor]

This brings up the question in my mind of the same sex couple that is married with kids, what do they do when they get saved?

[@MikeWinger]

The essential difference is that a same sex relationship isn’t a real marriage in the first place. This is not because of the fact that they are attracted to the same sex. It is because of the definition of marriage. It’s inherently a relationship that involves male and female. I share some more on this issue here. kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZmcnaGQoZeEsJY

[@heymichaelc]

@@MikeWinger The same thought applies to heterosexuals'. Heterosexuals' living together (unmarried) or married/remarried unbiblically according to Jesus then it is sin. In fact in many of these cases adultery has or is occurring in those marriages because they left their spouse for another man/woman unbiblically.

[@trekkiebeth]

@@MikeWinger Right, but what should they do about the kid(s)? Have the kid(s) go back and forth between the adults' households? Decide who gets to keep them? Split them up? I guess they could do any of those things. Same-sex couples with kids are going to become more and more common, so it seems like we'll have to acknowledge that if one or both adults get saved, what happens to the kids is going to be the same as when any parents get divorced.

[@danieldeluca4936]

@@trekkiebeth At least one of the mothers or fathers, is not the biological mother or father.

[@trekkiebeth]

@@danieldeluca4936 I realize that, but I'm not sure if it makes much of a difference to what I said. My sister is adopted, so neither of the parents who raised her are her biological mother or father, but if my parents were to get divorced, that wouldn't make it any better for her.

[@heaven9378]

Thank you for addressing this...I am Zimbabwean and my parents are in a polygamous relationship and I grew up in it and as children we are all Christians and we have always found it difficult to deal with it...thank you thank you it's been weighing on me and my siblings

[@heaven9378]

@Lon Spector Didn't the virgins represent the church which is ONE church,the bride of Christ...removing any notions of polygamy?

[@ruthvansandt9713]

Yeah the ten virgins were handmaids, like a more involved group of bridesmaids. There was one bride not mentioned in the parable.

[@sphagbog]

Mike deals with topics many are too scared to deal with. Thank God for him.

[@fluentreasoningchannel5778]

You briefly touched upon the authority we have with this teaching in 1 Timothy 3. Leaders have special requirements, beyond what is required for the rest of the church. So of course, we should never encourage nor teach that anyone get divorced. This could not be made any more clear. When comparing this question, to what marriage should be, see 1 Corinthians 7. Your second half to this video digresses to a different question, which is answered in 1 Corinthians 7.

[@WatchPrayAlways]

@@fluentreasoningchannel5778 watch his entire series on divorce & remarriage. He may have even linked the playlist in the description section of this video.

[@sphagbog]

I like that Mike knows how to say, "I don't know" and that he takes so much responsibility for his answers. Thanks Mike, no wonder you have 151k followers - and risng - was just 148k a few weeks ago! What a powerful ministry. Thanks God.

[@deadair801]

I agree Mike is the real deal not afraid to be wrong not afraid to find out doesn't just cherry pick scripture that suites some agenda. Coming from a strict protestant background (which I am grateful for) I feel really blessed to have found this dude

[@Peace-wm7vc]

Thts what glued me to his sermons, he is able to say “I might be wrong about this”, and “let me hear your comments “.....wow, thts big of him

[@danieldeluca4936]

He clearly doesn't know what Scripture teaches on this topic. He even went gender neutral where Scripture is gender specific, when it comes to divorce and remarriage.

[@sphagbog]

@@danieldeluca4936 would you like to be specific? One of the reasons I like Mike is because he tells us not to mindlessly believe everything he says but to read and pray and check. I don't agree with everything he days, but I respect everything he says.

[@danieldeluca4936]

@@sphagbog That is very wise! That is a great approach. I wish I had time to go through and give specifics, but every time you hear someone use the word "spouse", you can be pretty sure they went gender neutral where Scripture went gender specific.

[@daniellinzel1994]

I like this version of 'The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.' (Proverbs 18:17). Love your honesty, Mike!

[@danieldeluca4936]

I have cross examined him and others on this topic. Unfortunately, I don't have as much time to give to this as is needed, but he is only partially correct here.

[@lornathesewist]

I'm from Kenya, the law is if you get married in a church you cannot be polygamous, but if you do the customary marriage you can Coming from a polygamous family myself the real collateral damage happens to the kids. Especially if the wives dont see eye to eye means competing for attention which plagued my childhood. Sometimes people get into polygamy because they gained more income and want more kids, and in our culture, kids are a sign of wealth. Some Christians here are struggling with the balance of their cultural practices and their faith. They feel it's fair if they treat their wives fairly as per society standards We come from a place of missionaries during colonial times completely disregarding all African culture and condemning it as evil, so with current rise of pan Africanism there is more and more people feeling Christianity is very Western and leaning towards exploring traditional beliefs I'm grateful for channels like yours that teach scripture in original context. It's more important now than ever before

[@lornathesewist]

@Lon Spector not that I'm aware of. I know communities that may have killed children with disabilities or those born with Albinism. It's pretty sad though.

[@lornathesewist]

@@MicheleNichols2 its easier said than done and no African culture isnt evil. Some practices may be wrong but when you have someone come and tell you everything you do is wrong it creates serious problems. The way Christianity was taught made us have to adopt British names to prove our conversion. (Which makes no sense our names arent sinful. We believe in meanings behind our names) .we changed how we dressed, (which had affected Kenya to this day, we dont have any cultural attire that unites us as a country unlike our neighbours). Basically anything the missionaries didnt understand was a sin 🤷🏾‍♀️🤷🏾‍♀️🤷🏾‍♀️ Many religious sub sects were born in the 1900s that mix culture and tradition because there were people who were convicted that they need Christ but still wanted to keep the traditions. We had a great East African revival at that time that actually led people like my grandmother to Christ and brought Christianity to the home. For a patriarchal society like ours that was a very hard thing to do but her conviction was strong and its held in the family to this day. (And yes she was in a polygamous marriage 1st of 4 wives) As we have become more modern and with more study of God's word we are more aware of some that are more harmful than good. Alot of young people have let go of polygamy because more women are educated and will not stand for it, also the fact that it's expensive. Very few practice it. Generally I was sharing from personal experience of growing up in a polygamous home. All sin leads to hurt. But its God who works in us to convict us Also in our culture divorce is a very Western idea, so it's not something you can do easily. In Kenya it takes 2 years to be legally divorced.

[@Emillly3]

Thank you for sharing, Lorna!

[@lornathesewist]

@@Emillly3 very welcome 😊

[@lornathesewist]

@@maryellen6153 I think you have taken my comment out of context. I was giving my context and my experience and how polygamy is justified in our culture. Even for couples who mutually agree to it. I was not trying to argue about the human sinful condition in general

[@ThePettiestOfficer_Juan117]

My father-in-law was a missionary in Africa for 20+years and we support missionaries still there. This is exactly how they handle this situation. Good stuff, Mike.

[@hummakavula3750]

Polyphobia is the next label the culture will throw at us.

[@gabrielladavid7988]

Yesss gosh 🙄🙄

[@danieldeluca4936]

I just call it anti-poly. That's what it is.

[@trumenfreight6055]

I just call it hating the bible as God clearly supports polygamy for the man (Gen 33v5; exo 21v10; deut 21v15). In the bible God is a polygamist himself ( Jer 3; Eze 23; Matt 25v1-10). In isaiah 4v1 Yahuwah promised 7 wives to the christian men that survived 70AD and Christ repeated this to the prophesied generation in Matt 19v29.

[@gabrielladavid7988]

@@trumenfreight6055 God made Eve and only Eve for Adam. In God's perfect plan for the world, one man and one wife were to join and become one flesh. When sin entered, Lamech was the first polygamist.- he was a murderer. Wanting another wife led David to commit adultery. Solomon was driven away to foreign gods by his many wives. In the parable of the 10 virgins, the virgins are symbolic of the church, the bride of Christ. Notice in Matt. 19.29 it says wife not wives. Read 1 Corinthians 7. While God never condoned polygamy, like divorce, he allowed it to occur with no immediate punishment.

[@trumenfreight6055]

@@gabrielladavid7988 Hi. I haved studied not read but studies that this issue for more than ten years, i swear on christ's i have heard your arguments from a thousand people and they are all wrong. I will address but there is something more important. Your hatred for polygamy does not address the basic issue. That is the definition of sin. Most people including yourself dont know what the definition of sin is. In my comment to the guy that made this video i address this first. Please respond to this and dont shy away or get angry when your beliefs fall apart. We will get to the verses you misunderstood after we look at the foundational issue, the definition of sin: Brother Mike i beg you (or your supporters) to respond to this comment so that we may talk about this issue. You are incredibly misinformed on this issue. The question that must first be answered is "is polygyny a sin?". This requires that we first of all know what sin is. 1 John 3v4 we are told that sin is the transgression of the law. Rom 5v13 and 7v7 say the same thing. Sin is defined by the Law. John 1v17 tells us that the law came by Moses while Christ brought grace and truth. Christ did not bring the law and his disciples including his best friend deny that he did. Moses' writings must inform our opinion on matters of morality. Remember that if both paul and John are teaching that Moses ALONE functioned as lawgiver, then that means Christ believed that to. Yahushua is the one that led them to this conclusion about Moses, He taught both men after all. If we are to understand Christ's words and those of His disciples on the topic of marriage we must look to Moses first. Remember the road to Emmaus (Luke 24v27). Please consider the following points: 1)There are no laws in the books of Moses that restrict a man to one woman. In 2 Sam 12v8 Yahuwah tells David that He gave him his master's wives into his bosom. That means that God actively participated in the polygamy of his servants he did not merely tolerate it (a claim found in abundance outside the bible but zero times within it). In addition to this He contrasts the many wives that David received from Him to the wife of Uriah that he took by himself. He says that this was done in contradiction to his commandment. Clearly telling the reader that Yahuwah does not believe that polygyny is against the law (the commandment) he gave to the holy people at Sinai. Remember where there is no law there is no sin. 2) There are laws in the bible that regulate polygyny and teach men how to be good polygynist fathers and husbands. These are exo 21v10 and Deut 21v15. If laws define good and evil then it good to give wives and children their rights in a polygynous home. Men that follow these laws are righteous like all men that obey God's law. Consider the fact that never once are they called sinners yet they are given laws with which to pursue righteousness. 3) Moses' writings teach us what marriage is contractually. In Gen 2 Adam has a rib taken from him then a woman given in exchange. This is a purchase. This depicts Eve, and hence all wives thereafter, as human property, as slaves. This is why these holy men that sleep with multiple women every night were never charged with adultery. Adultery in the Hebrew is Zanah it speaks of covenant breaking. However, the man cannot break that covenant as masters are not accountable to their slaves. That is why Yahuwah has three laws in the ten commandments against polyandry (No adultery, coveting another's wife or stealing.) but not a single one against polygyny. There are many other things to discuss in Moses' law ie the bible that Yahushua read but what i have written will be a good starting point. Please respond you need my help on this because no prophet ever taught what you are teaching.

[@ToothpikcOriginal]

"Devolve into moral make-believe," like that phrase

[@tippiebear1069]

I was thinking the same thing, I’m going to use that phrase. “Moral make believe” that’s exactly what it is.

[@danielt.9101]

"Moral make-believe" is exactly what "biblical morality" is.

[@tippiebear1069]

Daniel Tibiriçá Moral make believe is when you create a god that suits your desires such as making yourself a god and thinking it’s ok to lie cheat and steal. This is what atheists do.

[@ToothpikcOriginal]

@@danielt.9101 Ya, not murdering and stealing was always kinda stupid

[@danielt.9101]

@@ToothpikcOriginal Not murdering and stealing is pre-biblical morality. It's basic human moral intuition which the biblical writers intuited just as much as Hindu, Buddhist, Confucian, Daoists, Greek philosophical and other axial age religious sages did too. :)

[@WendyWzOpinion]

"...as our culture devolves into moral make-believe on the topic of sexuality and marriage." So well said.

[@RedPillOfTheBible]

Of course he has to stay as he is with both wives. The Bible does not even prohibits polygamy.

[@catholictruth102]

No, he must divorce. Polygamy is sexual immorality.

[@barelyprotestant5365]

Anglicans have had to deal with this in various countries in Africa for centuries. What has generally been done is a requirement to care for each wife and kids, but only sexual relations with one wife (the first).

[@barelyprotestant5365]

@paisleyyama yeah, I disagree, but I'm not interested in a comments-debate over it. I just know that it worked, and the African Anglicans (especially in Nigeria) are an incredibly strong force for the Faith today.

[@johnrockwell5834]

@pasleyyama I agree it's wrong to deny conjugal rights.

[@mercantilefintech107]

Evil to deprive a woman in name of religion

[@barelyprotestant5365]

A lot of people worshiping sex here...

[@mentilly_all]

Just why??? What to those cultures is wrong with an actual marriage?.. And how could this as an alternative make more sense to anyone? ..genuinely asking all that...

[@susandsouza1653]

I am glad you tagged the end on to this video. Years ago an African leader told me the story of his coming to Christ and wrestling with the fact he had a number of wives. He prayed that God would fix the mess he had made. One by one the wives left and returned to the homes of their fathers, starting with the most beautiful, then the most intelligent, then the one who was best at business, until the first alone was left and they had been faithfully and happily married for decades ever since. The way he presented the story was funny and engaging, but its messages to the hearer were unmistakable: God cares about marriage, leaders should be the husband of one wife, let God pick the wife and he will sort things out in time for the best. It was a perfect teaching for that cultural context, and I have never forgotten it.

[@danieldeluca4936]

Well, if his wives married anyone else, they committed adultery. Breaking up a home like that grieves God, and Christianity needs to wake up to that.

[@tashajoykin5192]

@@danieldeluca4936Polygamy is commonly known to cause division and tribalism. It takes a lot to maintain order in these kinds of households. (See King David’s household. See the history of Saudi Arabian royalty.)

[@bobbyviera623]

Adultery is when a man has sex with another man's wife. The end. That's why polygyny is not called adultery anywhere in scripture, and why the Law outlined how to do polygyny correctly rather than simply calling it sin. The law also outlines how to do concubinage correctly (and, again, never calls it sin). Neither of those practices is ever called sin in the New Testament, either. We have a tendency to project our own ideas back onto scripture, and marriage is definitely one of those areas.

[@bobbyviera623]

Some food for thought: Did Yahweh depict himself as unfaithful or sinful by portraying himself as a polygamist in Ezekiel 23 (the husband of Aholah and Aholibah)? No, and no one at the time would have batted an eyelash, because they knew that polygyny is not adultery. Polygyny is taking additional wives. Adultery is when a man has sex with another man's wife. When a man has sex with a woman who is not married to him or anyone else, it is called fornication (whether the man is married or not). Therefore, adultery of the heart is when a man looks on a married woman to lust for her (the Aramaic original wording spoken by Jesus almost certainly referred to a married woman rather than a maiden, and pretty much any of his Jewish hearers would have understood it this way since they knew the Law like the back of their hands). To look on an unmarried woman to lust for her would be fornication of the heart. There is actually an ancient letter in Aramaic from one church official to another in which this verse is actually quoted with the wording "...whoever looks at a married woman, to lust for her..." So that actually makes more sense than to say, "All lust is adultery, whether the female is married or not."

[@bobbyviera623]

Also, to an ancient Israelite, what we would call a "secret marriage" would simply be seen as taking a concubine. The confusion comes because most modern Christians simply have not been exposed to the different categories of scripturally acceptable marriage/union and what each entails, as well as what the Law required in each type of lawful union, and what the woman's title was in each case (e.g. wife, concubine). But in fact, for each of the several types of acceptable union mentioned in the Law, there are different sets of rules, and not all of them are necessarily like the "husband and official wife" formula we usually think of, where the only valid way out is either death or divorce due to the wife's sexual immorality. There are lots of rabbit holes, some of which might actually offend modern ears even more than the idea of mere polygamy, but suffice it to say that even though we are no longer bound to the letter of the Law, it does contain (as Paul says in Romans 2:20) "the form/outline of knowledge and truth," and is certainly not full of things that are disagreeable to God, but rather it is full of rules and teachings that helped the Israelites live in a way that was acceptable and pleasing to him. We should ponder that when we see something in the Law that doesn't sit well with us. It's not God's wisdom and judgment that's flawed.

[@masonbaggett3739]

You seem to be going off on rabbit trails to justify polygamy, it may not be necessarily sin but it is far from wise. God made Adam (Man) only one wife, and if a mans attention is divided away from service to God by just having even married one wife as Paul said then the problem multiplies to a much worse extent, case in point Soloman's falling away from God. Ultimately a man is called to love his wife as Christ loved the church giving Himself up for her, it is impossible for a finite man to love everyone as the infinite Lord God does. We are here as Pilgrims walking towards eternity this is not our home we shouldn't get complacent.

[@henryboyd1805]

"Jacob was living in adultery" I really respect you Mike and like your content a lot. But I believe in this instance you are reading the Bible through modern eyes. Consider the following: First, many of the great men of God in the OT were polygamists and we don't see them condemned for this (Abraham; Jacob; *Moses?; Gideon; Samuel’s father; David; Solomon; Joash). See, for example: 2Ch 24:2-3. Yes, an argument from silence, but a strong one I think. Some of these men even gave us a good portion of the Bible (Pentateuch*, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecc?, Song). Jacob was the father of the nation of Israel. Abraham is the father of all believers. David the king was the prototype of the Messiah (Jesus, the Son of David), etc. All polygamists. The most detailed expression of love between a man and a woman in the Bible was written by a polygamist (Song 6:8, although some question this). The law gave many regulations on sexual behavior (eg Lev 18-20), yet it strangely did not forbid polygamy. It did, however, say that the children of the wives must be treated fairly (Dt 21:15-17; Ex 21:10) and you were not allowed to marry two sisters (Lv 18:18). Thus it tacitly “approved” of this practice. Polygamy was actually required by law under certain circumstances. For example, the levirate law does not stipulate whether or not the man in question is already married (Dt 25:5-10, possibly also Ex 22:16; Dt 22:28-29). Rachel & Leah both seem to believe that God approved of them giving their servants to Jacob as wives (Gn 30:4-6, 18). God gave David wives (plural) and would have given him more if he had asked (2 Sam 12:8). God is himself pictured as a polygamist in Eze 23:1-4. Also: In addition to Hagar, many scholars believe Abraham married Keturah in Sarah’s lifetime (Bruce Waltke, Genesis; John Walton, NIVAC; Gordon Wenham, WBC, Ken Matthews, NAC; etc). Contrary to popular belief, the Bible does not condemn Solomon for his polygamy, but because he married many foreign (aka pagan) wives who turned his heart after other gods (1Ki 11:1-13; Neh 13:26). Arguably he also violated Dt 17:16-17. Some feel that Dt 17:16-17 prohibits polygamy because it says that a king must not acquire “many wives” yet the same Hebrew word prohibits him from having “many horses” or “much gold and silver” and no one seems to argue that a king therefore could only have one horse or one piece of gold or silver. Furthermore, polygamy is explicitly allowed just a few chapters later in this same book (Dt 21:15-17) and at times even required in Dt 25:5-10. * Most scholars seem to believe that Moses’ “Ethiopian wife” was not Zipporah (G.Wenham, TOTC; R.Allen, EBCR; J.Goldingay, FEC; B.Levine, AYBC; G.Gray, ICC; Keil&Delitzsch; B.Levine, UBC; M.Noth, OTL), see Num 12:1. It is of course possible that he divorced Zipporah or that she had died, but that is speculation. On the issue of adultery in the OT, see some of the better Hebrew Lexicons (HALOT; NIDOTTE; TDOT; TWOT). You may be surprised.

[@amarao.b.3979]

Moses was monogamous.

[@SusanMorales]

Breaking up a polygamous marriage didn’t seem unjustified to God when He told Abraham to send his second wife away. I personally believe that when people become Christians it will affect every area of their life including their marriage and so the husband should remain with the first wife and give the second an opportunity to remarry and enjoy a Godly marriage, but still take care of her and the kids in the process and have a loving relationship with them as an ex-wife situation.

[@LuisLeones]

Abraham wasn't married to Hagar. God telling Abram to send her away was not a sending away of a wife. The Hebrew Scriptures always make a difference between wife and concubine/servant. Abraham never married Hagar.

[@SusanMorales]

LuisLeones that’s interesting. From reading the Bible verses to me it seems to say that he married Hagar in order to have a child with her. “After Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Abram’s wife Sarai took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to her husband Abram as his wife.” ‭‭Genesis‬ ‭16:3‬ ‭NASB‬‬. I used to wonder why God didn’t call her his wife.

[@SusanMorales]

H P We can’t assume that just because God didn’t say something explicitly to Abraham or the Church or anyone else, that God is okay with any practice. Especially when He was very vocal (without directly saying it) in the beginning by only making one wife for Adam and reasserting this through Jesus’ words on marriage. There would be many sinful things that people would try to justify simply because God didn’t stop people from sinning like David and the other polygamous relationships in the Bible. Can God bring good from terrible choices, yes. Does He bring good because He approves those bad choices? No. I’m not so sure the New Covenant supports polygamy. If it was so justified in God’s eyes they would qualify as leaders in the Church. It’s clear God disapproves. (Also, are we reading into the text polygamy? What if “remain in the situation” really is referring to non polygamous marriages? If we’re speculating, what if it could also possibly mean, anyone that wants to be a leader let him abandon polygamy?)

[@LL-vj5yp]

Hagar was not Abraham’s wife, she was Sara’s slave. She was supposed to consider her baby her mistress’s child instead she became prideful. And caused great strife.

[@carrieholden3171]

Susan Morales I agree with your points. Who ever we use as an example in the scriptures your point still remains and it still covers the entire issue I believe. That God joined one man and one woman and they became one flesh. This is the family structure God intends, can God work through our sins and messy circumstances yes He can and He does! But it’s still living in sin.

[@bgail20]

Anytime to answer a question we look at peoples circumstances, culture, feelings and consequences instead of the bible we going down a wrong path. We end up pleasing man and not God.

[@jeffersonjjohnson]

Exodus 21:10; if a man has more than one wife, he's got to provide each with marital (or conjugal) rights, unless the translation of marital can somehow mean anything else within the context of the verse which already covers food and shelter. 1st Corinthians 7 looks to be dealing with individual instances and doesn't address polygamy one way or another. Additionally, if the Law is to be applied equally, how then could David have been justified in marrying Abigail? I'm just a guy with a bible; I don't claim to be an expositor, teacher, or scholar.

[@kenpostudent702]

God never commanded the breakup of polygamist marriages in the OT. If you say that a modern polygamist who gets saved must divorce one or more of his wives, then why did the apostles never address this issue and why did the OT writers never address it?

[@ebotebot2591]

It ripped our family apart and led to much abuse from the older ones. My dad had many wives and at some point he joined a Pentecostal church that preached an aggressive form of familial dissolution upon "being saved". One of the wives was already living apart because the house could not accommodate everyone but she periodically visited. My dad was encouraged to move the our family out which he initially agreed to but the cost of it I guess made him change his mind and decided to let my mom stay and raise the children in his home but they had nothing going on physically. The other wive and children took advantage of this and the physical and emotional abuse was hell. My father had no handle on this, he was out ministering all the time and just wished his problems would go away. That didn't happen. Rifts, fights, animosity on a scale never seen. My worst association is having being part of my family and made it clear to my dad I regretted being born of him. On one occasion he could be heard telling the older children that the children of the other marriage are "not of this house". To him it was the Isaac and Ishmael. There was never peace and the family fell apart as we grew older. My father was almost twenty one years older than my mom who was handed to marriage by her family (like being sold) at the age of sixteen(16). My father wished we could just leave but bear in mind that for economic reasons in a developing country a woman can't make it with six kids. Combined my father had thirteen. He was hardly home to put the family together. He let older men beat and bully girls and with the thinking that my mom had no rights. Even when taken to the courts, he did not honor the decision to split his income to support us outside of that crime scene. I consider to this day I never had a dad. he was there at times but he was completely absent. I just can't say the rest, it got really bad. I wonder if God would want a child at sixteen "sold" to marriage to be responsible for this. There was no structure and no sympathy from church members. I saw extremists who somehow believed the devil had just brought the other wives into his life. I did not attend his church and I detest any church set up that way. I later on baptized Catholic and served as altar boy or mass servant. Even though I do not observe every Catholic rites and rituals today, I still attend the church as it brought some direction in my life. I still pray at least three times a day but I always wonder God's purpose. For me, life has been loaded with heaps and mountains of pain, stress, distress and disappointments. I found my way through school and made it through University but my scars and the cloud over me never left. People just say things because they've never lived it. No book can contain my experience, nothing I fear anymore because I have not even overcome the animosity and inequities I faced from other siblings over the years. No one should EVER submit to abuse in any form and please do not make the mistake of polygamy. With or without spiritual grace, it DOES NOT WORK. Exceptions do not negate a role, they confirm it. People say, let the wive remarry? Who marries a woman with six kids?? Really folks?? In this situation, the fault is the husband's who was not satisfied with one but needed three wives. Upon sending the others away, he gets to live his life with one. In Western societies, the law may help but not in a developing country. It would not have been permitted in the first place. Even in this situation, the best option was for my mom to leave. Send the wives away and bear the financial burden but my dad would not. He wanted heaven but not at the cost of his income. Somehow he didn't believe he was wrong, neither did his church members. They hardly greeted us. We were the younger ones. I was almost fifteen years younger than my oldest brother. This lasted for years until my mom fell sick and we moved out with her on our own. It's a long long journey from here....!! Is this truly God's best?? Is this the price of Heaven?? What a world!!!

[@danieldeluca4936]

Perhaps that is why Paul said that the leader must be the husband of one wife. If he is leading the church, is he not the beneficiary of the people who give offerings? Why should they support his largess? If a man wants multiple wives, he should not be on the church payroll.

[@nikichat4476]

Ebot, I am Christian now, and I don't believe that God wants me to seperate from my polygamist husband in any sense of the word. This simply wouldn't work, not only for me, but also for my children. A man should never disown any member of his family and Gods church shouldn't expect him to. No one is more important then another in a family.

[@philipbuckley759]

do you think that when one complicates their life, they should be given a ....pass....on sin???

[@philipbuckley759]

@@nikichat4476 what does the Bible say....marriage...one man and woman.....now that you know that your relationship is adultery, are you risking eternal judgement for an inconvience that is temporal...

[@nikichat4476]

@@philipbuckley759 You are so right. I realized that shortly after becoming a Christian. I read Leviticus 18 and knew my life was abomination in the eyes of God, for my husband married me, and my little sister also. I left him, and only one of my seven children would come with me, but I am so blessed to have the one. My son also became a Christian and was baptized a few months after me. I am very glad that God delivered me from the land of Egypt and has surrounded me with loving wonderful brothers and sisters in Christ. Praise the Lord! He has taken care of me every step of the way.

[@utopianapothecary7631]

Hi Mike. (Egyptian Mocha). I was getting a little nervous about that first part (that you held back until now). It didn't sit right with me. Not that that means anything. I am glad you added that second part. I have often said that the state of marriage is sometimes used to cover sin. If you don't want to commit adultery...marry the person, if you don't want to lust...marry the person. If you want to go to a prostitute...marry the person (even if for an hour). This is an excuse but God knows the heart. I saw a part in the Bible where people were forced to divorce foreign wives (OT) because they did not worship Yeshua maybe you can give clarity on that one day. I know that God does not like divorce; at the same time he allowed it as a concession. Man makes so much of a mess of things that its hard to clean up without it backfiring and hurting others.

[@danieldeluca4936]

That one has been a difficult topic for me as well. What I have concluded is that the reason God hates divorce is the same reason He wanted them to divorce foreign wives, namely godly offspring.

[@MaintDocs]

Marriage is for a lifetime. Israel was judged harshly for their _practices_ such as marrying and immediately divorcing a prostitute.

[@mrmonay]

Respectfully Mike, nothing about 1 Cor 7 says you shouldn't have 2 or more wives. In fact if you go to the greek you'll see that there are 2 different words used for "his own" vs "her own" ... one implies exclusive ownership, one does not. The wife can have shared ownership of her husband based on the greek word used, the same as she could claim "her own home" or "her own children" they aren't "only hers" it just means she should have A husband. I think you need to go deeper on this topic, a lot deeper. A biblically polygynist marriage is not "A MARRIAGE involving a man and many women" it is a concurrent set of 1 man, 1 woman, marriages at the same time. They are separate covenants. "What God has joined together, let no man separate" seems to answer this question pretty clearly.

[@Liminalplace1]

Interesting Mike that you changed your mind. I tuned into it in my car and didn't hear your beginning. I was thinking you'd got it right, so I don't think your revision is correct. I'm an Anthropologist and some times a missionary,I do have theological training (from PhDs lecturers from Fuller) but I've never sought to be a Pastor but have an advisor role to Church leaders in Asia. I say this to tell you the issue on polygny (Not polyandry) is real. One example, a missionary had a young man write him in Philipines over his issue with his uncle who was a church leader of a few churches, but his uncle had 2 wives. He was living with his uncle but having issues submitting to his leadership. The American missionary viewed this as appalling moral failure. I corrected the missionary over his attitude as from the description it seemed quite different. In an area where Muslims lived a man of high social standing had more than one wife because his status and income meant he could support them and the children. A church leader from a high social status with integrity is what 1 Timothy is getting at. Christian anthropologists (see "Christianity Confronts Culture" Marvin K..Mayers) usually see Genesis 2 as God's ideal not the moral standard. When it says "For this reason a man should leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife" that rules out polygny, but it also rules out remarriage since a man can only leave his parent ONCE. The fall, with death, breaks into that IDEAL as does polygny and remarriage after death or divorce. In addition the cultural interpretation of "adultery" varies. In ancient Hebrew understanding "adultery" was having sexual relations with another man's wife period. An unbetrothed girl having sex with a married man wasn't "adultery" ..he was just expected to marry her. In Western culture we consider "adultery" to be unfaithness in marriage period. Traditionally in Thailand a marriage involves giving gold as a form of "betrothal" then a ceremony.. .sex during that pre-ceremony period isn't a moral issue. A few missionaries were confronted with problem of girls being pregnant prior to marriage when the Thais saw it as a blessing. Thailand has been so corrupted by western values now. Thailand also have a major wife and a minor wife..where only the major wife is the legal one and often from the same class as the man, but lower class girls may have security and good parentage to children through being a minor wife. I knew a woman who was an children on one such union... she had family photos with her mother and father. Her mother attempted to convince her to do the same with a married man but I compelled her to find a good single guy which she did and married. I say this to illustrate the issue isn't just academic or in the past. In polygnous societies "adultery" is similar to ancient Hebrew....Having sex with a married woman not yours...or a married woman having sex with a man not here. Thats how their culture views it, cultures get influenced by western values in our modern world..but culture cannot be abstracted from your thinking..I think you Mike have changed because the pressure of your first understanding feels unnatural because everything in your Western enculturalisation screams against it so you switched back. That's a cross-cultural challenge.. it's like learning another language it doesn't feel natural and you switch back easily. From a biblical view, there is little against polygny..many have search for verses in vain. Saying it's not God's ideal is clearly biblical but to judge Abraham Jacob,, Moses especially who gave the 7th commandment,, David, Solomon as adulterers is absurd. Our Western value upon the individual and companionship marriage means polygamy is just morally wrong because it doesn't honor the other as one's self... As far as those men in polynmous societies that are converted and believe they are called to Church leadership they ought to remain faithful to their wives and be examples Yahweh who had two sisters because the gospel doesn't destroy culture but transforms it. The question on whether the women need remain in this situation 1 Corinthians 7 speaks to somewhat. The primary reason the Church became monogamous was cultural ...Greek and Romans dominated....the bible was sought to affirm what they already believed was moral. As missionaries you don't need to tell other what to do..let the Spirit of God guided them thru general biblical teaching. I'd recommend you change your revision. .you were on the right track

[@danieldeluca4936]

Excellent breakdown! AMEN!

[@GamzaLive]

A man with multiple wives is not a sin in the bible. This is just another instance of someone projecting their dislikes onto scripture. The extent to which someone will go to defend a presupposition is often times sad.

[@ianflanagan209]

Why does God never condemn polygamy in the Bible? He only condemns David for adultery when it dealt with him stealing Bathsheba from her husband. Prior to that he had 7 wives and God never said anything about it. In fact when David was confronted by Nathan prophet God said “And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.” 2 Samuel 12:8 How do you explain this if God had a problem with polygamy? But not just that Jesus uses a polygamist parable to describe his second coming with parable of the 10 virgins in Mathew. Some say these were brides maids but this theory falls apart because the virgins represent Christians and the groom represents Jesus second coming, he is coming for the bride not the maids, the maids get left behind only wives get taken home. Also every time virgin is used in scripture it is in reference to a young wife to be, and there is no reason to make the bridemaids be virgins, the jews did not even have bridesmaids anyways. Some say roman law demanded 10 witness and these are 10 witnesses but this falls apart to because only 5 were allowed in to the wedding and once again there is no reason or require for witness to be virgins. Also if they are just witnesses that means they get left behind because they are not the bride/brides and the virgins represent Christians during his return remember. So they must be wives, all other explanation end up with them left behind or don't make any sense. But the big elephant in the room then is Genesis 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. Jesus reiterated this as well, so doesnt this prove monogamy? NO. Because the phrase the two shall become one flesh is referring to the act of sex and because a man only has one penis he can only join to one at a time, this is not saying they are literally one flesh or that they are fused in spirit. A man can not join to multiple women at once sexually, because of biology. But God was laying out the order operations for marriage relationships step 1 man moves out from his parents, step 2 he takes hold of a woman he finds suitable to marry, step 3 they get married by becoming one flesh. God made one wife for Adam but this was prior to the fall, meaning one woman per man would likely be capable of producing enough people to be fruitful and multiple upon the earth with no difficulty in childbirth and no death. However after the fall man still had an obligation to be fruitful and multiply but now it was much harder for a woman to give birth, no more infinite life span and crops to tend to. Polygamy became necessary to produce enough kids to not only fill the earth but tend the crops and cattle to help feed the family as kids are like free labor and multiple wives can tend to more tasks. You might say but isnt the man committing adultery against his wives each time he sleeps with a different wife? Adultery is defined as having sex with someone outside your marriage, but if they are married then it is not adultery. This is why polygamy is never called adultery and there are old testament laws that deal with the legalities of polygamy rather than condemning it. If polygamy is adultery then why are the children of Jacob, which are the tribes of Israel not illegitimate? Would God call his chosen people a people born out of sin? Which sin does God ever overlook because it was culturally popular? Before you call something, consult with scripture to see God calls it sin. Because he does definitively call it sin and you do you sin by placing your righteousness above the righteousness of God.

[@mrmonay]

Adultery 100% only ever meant a married woman sleeping with anyone but her husband, or a man sleeping with another man's wife. Whether he is married or not is irrelevant. A married man if taking a second wife is COMMANDED by God to sleep with both. Ex 21:10. God would never command infidelity or adultery. Nothing about adultery changed in the NT, it still is what it is. If a married Christian man sleeps with someone outside of marriage and she is unmarried, he commits the sin of fornication, a grave sin, especially in that context, but it's not adultery. If a married man sleeps with his 2nd or 3rd wife, he is obeying God's commands to not deny them what he owes them.The fact that any Christian would imply that a married man obeying God's command is UNFAITHFUL is wrong, adding to the word of God and manipulating the Word, hopefully in this case not intentionally, but I know Mike is better than this, and I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he simply hasn't gone deep enough on this.

[@Couragedearheart445]

Thank you for covering this! Lots of good thoughts on complex sides of the issue. We appreciate it.

[@bufficliff8978]

Comment threads in religious sectors often leave me feeling as if I was forced through a slime pit and can’t get the ick off. It’s disgusting

[@MikeWinger]

It’s nice to have such uplifting additions as yours. ;) Seriously though, every controversial topic arouses some tough comment sections. I guess, to my ears, your comment brings to mind a general negative attitude toward religious truth which finds every complaint about religious people to be an argument against actually having strong faith in and obedience to God which naturally results in strongly held opinions about God. You may not have meant that at all but on the off chance you did or that others would see it that way I’m offering my two cents. Basically, it’s not a reflection on the truthfulness of a belief that people are nasty about it in comments. It may only be a natural result of having important topics that impact people’s lives in a culture where comment sections are generally not held to very high social standards.

[@geoffrobinson]

Same position I hold and my quick summary: sometimes you can't unscramble an egg

[@danieldeluca4936]

Who says that it is scrambled to begin with?

[@ajlouviere202]

What he means is that the one-flesh covenant of marriage is like a scrambled egg, man cannot unscramble it.

[@HH-lr2zt]

Ever since I learned about Jacob marrying Leah, I had a big spiral of questions. If someone was forced into a marriage (like Jacob being tricked or young girls being forced against their will to marry an older man) is the marriage legitimate? If someone in a marriage they never agreed to wanted out of it but desired to honor Christ, would they be right in leaving? I've been learning a lot about organizations that rescue young girls from forced marriages and help them get divorces. At first I was really happy that someone was freeing these victims from a situation they never consented too, but then I started feeling guilty for wanting to support a movement responsible for thousands of divorces. Is being forced into a marriage a legitimate reason for divorce? Should Jacob have just divorced Leah to marry Rachel instead of taking her as an additional wife?

[@danieldeluca4936]

You are on the right track. Do some self study, and don't rely solely on the study of others, and explore how deep the proverbial rabbit hole goes. All of Jacob's wives were legitimate! There is no such thing as an illegitimate marriage! Either they are married, or they or not. We should do what we can to stop forced marriages, but we, as believers in Christ, live under the Law of Love. Those without Christ, cannot be expected to live like us, unless there is a government in place to protect the individuals currently being forced into those marriages. If a man was forced to marry a woman he did not want, he still should love his wife. If a woman is forced to marry a man she did not wish to marry, she should still submit to him. Look at Esther as an example of a woman who submitted to the king. She didn't choose him! He chose her! She lived in his harem. God used her to save her people. If she had been rebellious, as had been Vashti, she would not have been used by God.

[@philipbuckley759]

@@danieldeluca4936 it is simple it was another dispensation.....and Acts 17.30 addresses this...The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent

[@andrewpatton5114]

@@danieldeluca4936 Oh really. So what about the man who marries a divorced woman?

[@danieldeluca4936]

@@philipbuckley759 You are quoting that verse out of context. The context had nothing to do with polygyny. It had everything to do with idolatry.

[@danieldeluca4936]

@@andrewpatton5114 Jesus said that this man commits adultery with her.

[@WatchPrayAlways]

Truly, there is no simple way to broach this controversial & complex topic. Thank you for making your best effort to teach it in a biblically balanced & thoughtful way Pastor @Mike Winger .

[@danieldeluca4936]

It is only complex, if you reach the unbiblical conclusion that polygyny is wrong.

[@joycelint6652]

Read a book about David Du Plessis, known as Mr Pentecost in Africa. He said that he rethought the strict requirements for a man to only keep one wife. He said the biggest issue in divorcing the other wives and children was those women and children had no protection or financial support. His comments later in life, that in that area of the world perhaps they should have been more aware of what would happen to those rejected women and children.

[@danieldeluca4936]

It is only a challenge, if you conclude that polygamy is wrong.

[@yj-in-the-world]

What would happen if a gay "married" couple were to be saved or one of them getting saved - and they have adopted children? This is a hypothetical that may not be common.. curious on what the theological conclusion would be.

[@joyeeverett6196]

I think either way they'd have to get divorced since a gay marriage is not a real marriage (only two people pretending to be in one). Who gets the kids may unfortunately be left up to court decisions and custody rulings.

[@flawedandbeautiful4166]

Vicky I've been mulling over that one for a while now too. While I don't agree with the way the more liberal minded churches are doing things, the same sex couples with children (either adopted or from previous relationships) are becoming more and more common. I've mostly been leaning towards something similar to what he described for polygamist marriages, but I don't know. I hope he covers it for us.

[@joyeeverett6196]

@@flawedandbeautiful4166 I think a same-sex relationship is different than polygamy, personally. There's nothing to suggest the union is a marriage if it's homosexual. But I could be wrong...I hope he covers it too.

[@yj-in-the-world]

@@joyeeverett6196 I do agree with you that it is not a marriage; and if they are just living together, the two of them, it would be much easier. However with children I think it would be a totally different dynamic, especially if the children are adopted by both of them and not just children from each of their previous relationships (in that case it would be similar to a heterosexual divorce, I guess?) Curious to what pastor Winger would say!!

[@blanktrigger8863]

The same principle from Corinthians would apply tbh. The trauma of abandonment is worse than whatever good the person is achieve through divorce. Though I've heard stories of two gay people either married or in a relationship who both become born-again and then they break up and there is no neglect that comes from it because they're both born-again. And that is one big key to interpreting Paul's text as well, is that it refers to one person who is born-again and not the other. So essentially if all people are born-again it can be argued that they should eventually develop the maturity through sanctification to divorce or break up etc.

[@sierraduran1293]

The interesting thing is that polygamous relationships are actually more prevalent in America than I think many Christians realize. I know of 4 polygamous relationships offhand. This is a very prevalent issue in America, even though the marriages are illegal. This is modern, this is local. Please educate yourselves in what trends are happening in the secular world. Having been saved, I am no longer in the LGBT culture and am married to a wonderful man and no longer living as a man but as the woman God made me to be, but the LGBT community is much much more than gay and trans people. It includes a vast amount of polygamy and other things that the sheltered Christian may consider “too taboo” for America.

[@twiceborn_by_grace]

This is why I love your channel and teachings. You tackle hard issues where other people don’t. Whether it be that they don’t think of them or do think of them and just don’t want to make a teaching on it. 👍👍

[@danieldeluca4936]

Well he sort of missed the tackle here on this one.

[@xbluesaintx]

​@@danieldeluca4936Agreed. I don't think he's in any hurry to be as objective, thorough and countercultural on this topic as he is with other topics.

[@danieldeluca4936]

@@xbluesaintx You know, when I first started debating this topic, about six and a half years ago, the anti-polygamists outnumbered us 6 to 1. I think we are making significant progress as we are opening people's eyes to the truth found in Scripture.

[@danieldeluca4936]

I agree with your point that it is untenable to say that they were never married in the first place.

[@truthseeker9155]

My husband told me that polygamy was Biblical so acceptable (he is a Christian, that's why I married him). He told me a man could have more than one wife though a woman could not have more than one husband. I used to wish he would get another wife who would also earn money (as he did not earn and we were always broke), and be my friend cos I was a bit lonely as I didn't seem to have any friends since getting married, and so that he could sleep with her instead of me and stop manipulating me into sex most nights. I'm an intelligent woman, but he persuaded me that he was right - and because he was the man, I had to submit to him of course. I wonder if that was abuse. I am no longer in that marriage anyway.

[@danieldeluca4936]

He is right to a certain degree. That wasn't abuse, BUT if he were to force you to accept polygyny against your will, that would be in violation of a covenant you most likely made where he promised to forsake all others, AND it does not comport with the "Law of Love". HOWEVER, if you desire to have a sister wife and are willing to release him of that promise to forsake all others, you will know the joy of having that friend who can also share the sexual burden that you were biblically required to bear on your own (I Cor 7:4). Paul says that the woman should not divorce her husband, but if she does, she must remain single or else be reconciled to her husband, and he stated that this was a COMMAND form the Lord.

[@tamsynspackman7090]

It definitely sounds like abuse to me. I'm happy for you to be out of that marriage.

[@fannywayne1920]

your name is truthseeker and i hope you find the truth Polgany is 100% Righteous and Natural and Promoted by God. it is not fornication it is not adultery! A man makes 100 million sperm a day 1 man can repopulate a country a woman makes only a few eggs in her life time and mostly are capable of making 1 child a year. Women's nature is also attracted to a man with means the man who other women also want, most women will rather share a man with means than have an exclusive man to suffer with. in Polygany the man must be able to provide and protect all his wives. it is a form of nation building this is why it was promoted through out the bible litterally all God's people came from Polygany

[@gottmituns698]

The answer is absolutely not. Would you tell Jacob (isreal) to divorce his 4 wives ? No. God never rebuked a man for having more than 1 wife.

[@pastorart1974]

Over ten years ago, I received a late night phone call, from the Mother of an American soldier serving overseas. This soldier was happily married with 2 or 3 very young children. The wife and children lived near the Fort Bragg Army base. Previously, either the wife or husband had a very brief marriage, without kids, which ended in divorce. Then while her Army husband was overseas, the wife starts attending a new church, and when the Pastor of the new church heard about the previous marriage, that Pastor tells the wife she must leave her husband and divorce him. That Pastor told the wife if she didn't do this, she was living in a perpetual state of adultery. So the wife, packs up her small children and moves from Fort Bragg to the State of Arizona, to be near the wife's parents. Both the husband and wife are under 30 years of age. I refer this wife to a Biblical Marriage Counselor, the wife refuses to meet with this Biblical Marriage Counselor because, the church the Counselor works out of has, brace yourself, a *KITCHEN*. How horrible!?!?! My sarcasm is intentional. I share this to point out how horrible the beliefs and practices are in certain American church denominations. This is the same denomination which believes it is sinful to use musical instruments in worship. I post this to point out how horrible certain denominations are, some are so bad we really should label them as false cults.

[@ImCarolB]

@Lon Spector So sad! That is a terrible cult.

[@megalopolis2015]

@Jeffrey Cline Jesus said if we've ever looked upon anyone with desire, we've committed adultery in our heart. To one extent or another, we are all guilty of this sin--and all of them, by breaking any commandment, according to Scripture. That is why Jesus came to Earth to die and rise again, and the Holy Spirit could live in us, because we could never fulfill the Law on our own. His Righteousness covers us and enables us to live righteously.

[@joshuacavender1536]

@@megalopolis2015 And now that we are saved by grace, let us not continue in sin. If you have repented in faith, there will likely be a work backing that up.

[@heymichaelc]

@@megalopolis2015 You only quoted part of the passage. Read the whole context of your statement all the way down to verse 30. Matthew 5:27-30. I hear people take this verse out of context all the time not reading Jesus full statement. Whether adultery in the heart or in the flesh cut it off, repent and flee from sexual immorality no matter what form it lives in. This is actually a passage of repentance. Just because we have lied in the past does not mean we can't help others out of their lying behaviors. Your making it sound as if we ever looked at a woman/man lustfully that we can't speak against the sin of adultery in the flesh. If we have truly repented as God's Word shows us "to show works worthy of repentance" then yes leaving an adulterous or polygamist marriage is scriptural.

[@pastorart1974]

@Jeffrey Cline What is most important is staying together. You incorrectly are assuming this new marriage was a perpetual state of adultery, which was not actually the case. How horrible is it to go thru life, knowing that a Pastor & a church initiated your parents divorce? This is something my children go through every day, even though their mother moved out over 25 years ago. Divorce is NOT the unpardonable sin.

[@dezzy151]

So i have had a day to think about and pray on this. Turns out, i should have never been so fired up about this and basically argued back and forth. That was a sin itself. I deleted my posts and i just want to apologize for being argumentative and rude. Sorry guys.

[@danieldeluca4936]

Hopefully, you can do some more research on what Scripture has to say about this. The more you learn, the closer you get to the heart of God.

[@neilmccall5311]

Absolutely spot on biblically and pastorally, Mike has covered all reasonable angles not least the disgrace of trying to force people OUT of less than ideal marriages as some so-called pastors do

[@nannasallynelson3990]

in many cultures a woman who is divorced and sent back to her family has her reputation stained. In this case for no cause of hers. She will have to live the rest of her life with this burden, possibly outcast.

[@kyz8390]

Thank you for waiting to post Mike. I believe there’s great wisdom in the entirety of what you said.

[@danieldeluca4936]

You would be wrong. There is great wisdom in only a portion of what he said. HE approaches this issue with the wrong presuppositions, and that is why he is so conflicted. Get rid of those wrong presuppositions, and this issue is not difficult at all to understand.

[@kyz8390]

Daniel DeLuca shrugs. Okay person I’ve never met.

[@danieldeluca4936]

@@kyz8390 If you were part of Biblical Families, and if you were to attend one of their retreats, you and I could possibly meet in person.

[@trumenfreight6055]

I posted this and Mike has not responded, please discuss this with me: Brother Mike i beg you (or your supporters) to respond to this comment so that we may talk about this issue. You are incredibly misinformed on this issue. The question that must first be answered is "is polygyny a sin?". This requires that we first of all know what sin is. 1 John 3v4 we are told that sin is the transgression of the law. Rom 5v13 and 7v7 say the same thing. Sin is defined by the Law. John 1v17 tells us that the law came by Moses while Christ brought grace and truth. Christ did not bring the law and his disciples including his best friend deny that he did. Moses' writings must inform our opinion on matters of morality. Remember that if both paul and John are teaching that Moses ALONE functioned as lawgiver, then that means Christ believed that to. Yahushua is the one that led them to this conclusion about Moses, He taught both men after all. If we are to understand Christ's words and those of His disciples on the topic of marriage we must look to Moses first. Remember the road to Emmaus (Luke 24v27). Please consider the following points: 1)There are no laws in the books of Moses that restrict a man to one woman. In 2 Sam 12v8 Yahuwah tells David that He gave him his master's wives into his bosom. That means that God actively participated in the polygamy of his servants he did not merely tolerate it (a claim found in abundance outside the bible but zero times within it). In addition to this He contrasts the many wives that David received from Him to the wife of Uriah that he took by himself. He says that this was done in contradiction to his commandment. Clearly telling the reader that Yahuwah does not believe that polygyny is against the law he gave to the holy people at Sinai. Remember where there is no law there is no sin. 2) There are laws in the bible that regulate polygyny and teach men how to be good polygynist fathers and husbands. These are exo 21v10 and Deut 21v15. If laws define good and evil then it good to give wives and children their rights in a polygynous home. Men that follow these laws are righteous like all men that obey God's law. Consider the fact that never once are they called sinners yet they are given laws with which to pursue righteousness. 3) Moses' writings teach us what marriage is contractually. In Gen 2 Adam has a rib taken from him then a woman given in exchange. This is a purchase. This depicts Eve, and hence all wives thereafter, as human property, as slaves. This is why these holy men that sleep with multiple women every night were never charged with adultery. Adultery in the Hebrew is Zanah it speaks of covenant breaking. However, the man cannot break that covenant as masters are not accountable to their slaves. That is why Yahuwah has three laws in the ten commandments against polyandry (No adultery, coveting another's wife or stealing.) but not a single one against polygyny. There are many other things to discuss in Moses' law ie the bible that Yahushua read but what i have written will be a good starting point. Please respond you need my help on this because no prophet ever taught what you are teaching.

[@AndrewFifield]

I always found it odd that Jewish law never forbids polygamy outright, but it does adultery. Almost as if they are considered two different things culturally. Many other laws are very specific (i.e. not cutting your hair/beard a specify way), but not with what is probably a much more important topic. Why not say that polygamy is wrong/sin/forbidden period, anywhere in the bible?

[@danieldeluca4936]

Study this topic further my friend and you will find that the answer is not what everyone has been telling you. Polygyny is not sinful. Research both sides of this argument, and you will find that those arguing that it is, are using Eisegesis, and twisting a lot of Scripture to justify their claims.

[@HaleStorm49]

Because god commanded many of his holiest servants to do it. They dance around this when it comes to people like Abraham - but Abraham wouldn’t have done it if he wasn’t instructed to. Same guy who almost murdered his only son. he did what he was told.

[@been1734]

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. You hit some most of the conclusions I also came up with but was too afraid to voice as many around me believe differently. I also like at the end where you added where the wives may have legitimate cause to divorce. It shows that many answers are not black and white and that two different answers may not necessarily be "wrong."

[@danieldeluca4936]

He has not done his research properly when he says that the wives can remarry. He is literally promoting what Scripture defines as adultery, and using an unbiblical definition of adultery to justify that position!

[@shenanigansofmannanan]

It's my opinion is that he is to stay with those wives..... It merely disqualifies him as a leader, teacher, or elders

[@chaboi7]

Im going to be honest here, if you were going to take an honest look at this subject your have to separate your European way of thinking from it because scripture and culture came from the middle east, not america....things were way different back then, take for example mary's age when she was engaged to joseph, in america that wouldn't be allowed and would be frowned upon but that same mary gave birth to jesus Christ......when I read the Bible I see if talks about a bishop having to be of only one wife which would mean that others wouldn't be qualified for that position if they were in a polygamist relationship.... 1. And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

[@TryHardCryHarder]

As much as I find polygamy an uninteresting option, and as clearly as the Bible demotes it in the grand scheme of God's plan (like disqualifying from position of Pastor), it can't be denied that polygamy is allowed in the Bible and it is, as you rightly designate, European tradition (traditions of man) imposed upon the Scriptures that deny this. When David already had several wives, God told him he would have given him more of he was unsatisfied (when he took Uriah's wife, 2 Samuel 12:8). Take special note of this: Joash had two wives that Jehoiada the priest retrieved for him, and the Bible's commentary in the immediately connecting verse says that he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord all the days of his life (2 Chronicles 24:2-3). We may not like that, but who cares? Certainly not God, its His world. God is right, we are wrong.

[@chaboi7]

@Lon Spector I know that, in fact jesus christ is coming to make war with the entire world so it isn't just the western world

[@chaboi7]

@@TryHardCryHarder as an american myself, it is very rare to hear anyone here be capable of departing their culture from what the bible says....thanks for being transparent, I've realized that many americans believe that the fact that they are american means they're christians and that's just not the case, when I got saved God out in me that my feelings, my culture, my patriotism came second to his word and that allowed me to have alot of clarity on these subjects.....the truth is that polygamy isn't for everybody but in some areas in the world it is necessary......when I got saved I was living in puerto rico & I was trying to live for God as much as I could with all my heart, mind, bldg and soul...I had no idea how much that attracted women and I wasn't ready for the tidal wave of women throwing themselves at me, even mother's trying to hand me their teenage daughters simply because the area where I was at there was no hope for a girl to find herself a good man.....it was hard to wrap my head around the desperation these women felt to find an honest man....it was sad.....I can see how things can be so hard in other areas where 4 women would want to share a man, I definitely believe that slot of men would take this and manipulate women into marrying them to have as many sexual partners as possible but those kind of wolves are everywhere anyways.....all in all its a hard subject to talk about.

[@emmagrace6396]

The problem with this comment is that it ignores that the European/American culture views these things as immoral because of the influence of Christianity; Europe was, after all, pagan until a couple of hundred years after Christ. The logical conclusion of the stories of Adam and Eve and Jesus' words on marriage implies that a monogamous marriage is the morally right way to go, which is why European and american churches teach it that way. This isn't restricted to the west; the eastern orthodox churches and cultures only permit marriage between one man and one woman as well. Also, I don't think that verse supports the idea of polygamy being a good thing. If you read it in context, it's about the day of the Lord in Israel where God will punish them by allowing them to be scattered and their nation destroyed. The women are seizing one man because there's not enough men left for them to marry and be taken care of. This is actually evidence that polygamy existed because of desperate living situations, and not as the ideal. It existed because women had no way of taking care of themselves, and had to rely on a husband to make sure they were safe. During times of war or famine, there weren't enough men to go around, so multiple women would marry one man. Historically, polygamy is a pretty oppressive system for women. And I notice that it's most ready defenders are men, not women. You won't hear of many women desiring to share one man with three other wives.

[@chaboi7]

@@emmagrace6396 I understand what you're saying but you're making the assumption that the gospel wasn't reached in other places also....btw, the European nations after notorious for using the bible to commit genocide, rape, slavery & constant warring all over the world so you can't say that European nations got it right either.....imho, polygamy will happen where there's the need for it, like you said......I don't advise it but I can definitely see that there could be a need for it in certain situations.

[@shenanigansofmannanan]

A "legal" marriage doesn't mean it's a Godly or Righteous marriage.... there were marriages long before licenses....and there will be marriages long after

[@petergrambo]

The authoritative answer: Polygyny (the correct term) is NOT sin, never been sin, never will be sin. Where there is no law, there is no sin. But, even moreso, God regulates, or puts protective boundaries on plural marriages in the Torah, something never done with anything He declared a sin. And, further, God describes Himself as a polygynist in Jeremiah 3, Ezekiel 23, Jeremiah 31, etc... I stand with God, Abraham, Jacob, Caleb, Moses, Gideon, David, Joash, etc.

[@andrewpatton5114]

Is it lawful for you to hate your enemies?

[@ThePicturePixie]

What about the part of the Bible that says marriage is between A Man and A woman. God didn't give Adam many wives. God loved Jacob, David and so on despite their sin and failings. Moses was married twice but we don't know what happened to his first wife. Abraham only had one wife, Hagard the maid was given to him by his wife. but the Bible never calls her his wife. Are you saying it's okay to have sex with a married woman and kill her husband because David did it? The point isn't that it's right or okay. It's that God can and will work with our very sinful nature and forgive us.

[@petergrambo]

@@ThePicturePixie Where is polygyny ever called a sin? Please, show me. Simply, western culture's monogamy-only standard is based in Greco-Roman laws of marriage (and justified with a handful of cherry picked verses). The Bible NEVER calls polygyny a sin or condemns any man for practicing it... Scripture does regulate it... Does God ever regulate a sin? Absolutely not...

[@unholywarrior9007]

So in 2end samuel 12 vs 8 kjv God gave David Saul's wife's. David was already married to Saul's Daughter . David had to cut murder and cut off the manhood of 100 filistens men to Mary saul's daughter. So David was still given leader ship position by God and multiple wifes . But you said a man should not have a leadership role. This is a topic you should never have made a video on

[@leegeorge3263]

Very thought-provoking video thanks for sharing and God bless you!

[@luigidibenedetto338]

actually when i was a missionary to the united states, wife no 13 of a polygamist (she became a christian) and they were not married legally. yes in the united states of america.the word say let no man separate that God bought together. Not all relationships God bought together it was sin

[@luigidibenedetto338]

@Lon Spector a splinter group

[@mentilly_all]

Thank you for putting it so simply... "Not all relationships God brought together." 👍

[@mentilly_all]

@John Robertson Thank you also for pointing that example out. I haven't read the whole bible, and i have a growing list of questions about it all that really confuse me. At least in the meantime i'm getting a little bit better at remembering to write things down.

[@Raz0rIG]

mentilly all that depends on how you view Gods sovereignty. I believe everything that happens God has ordained. I believe men did sin when they crucified Jesus but that was still orchestrated by God. For God to orchestrate it there’s no sin because it was for a greater purpose but the individuals who sinned like Joseph’s brothers selling him to slavery are culpable. Joseph even tells his brothers what you meant for evil, God meant it for good. It’s a complementary view on Gods sovereignty and human will. I don’t believe the Bible supports free will in the defined sense of being able to determine your choices outside of any external forces or influence. A simple way to put it is we make choices is based on our preferences but we don’t decide our preferences. Therefore in the strictest definition of free will is to say you are freely choosing and not influenced by any externalities is impossible for a finite being and would only be possible if you were the origin point of all thinking and patterns, essentially you’d have to be God in order to not be influenced by other causes in your preferences and thinking. But humans do have a will and out of that will we do choose to sin and are held accountable. The Bible teaches we make choices and are held accountable and yet the Bible also teaches that God is completely sovereign to the point of controlling even something as mundane as the rolling of dice or cast lots as well as hardening hearts of unbelievers. It may appear that that should be a logical contradiction but it can coincide.

[@mentilly_all]

@@Raz0rIG Agreed.. for the most part, i think God is the only one capable of paradoxes.

[@ruthvansandt9713]

The first part had me like, uh, yikes, the second I was like, whew, okay. Any wives that want should be free to leave with granted divorce/full freedom. In any case, the man should provide for all of them until they are able to support themselves.

[@danielle_4.34]

Yes, but it also makes me think, what about when the man wants to stop sinning? There should be a way for him too, right? May God bless you.

[@johnlobb6758]

This is an issue that caused a division in a denomination in South Africa in the 1800’s. The main personality was a man called Colenso who amount other issues supported polygamy in the Zulu nation, but was opposed by other senior members in his denomination. The bottom line was a split in Southern Africa, but both reported back to the same hierarchy in the England! Having struggled with the issue I feel your treatment of this is the right way of understanding it!

[@SMJ0hnson]

I appreciate you taking the time to think this through. I understand your thinking and can see your care to do what is good and prudent. I especially appreciate your application to church leadership, that’s super key. I’m sure we would agree and disagree on multiple points but to keep it simple I’d simplify it all with “polygamy isn’t marriage and therefore it’s dismantling isn’t divorce”. Someone might lob the charge that I’m playing with semantics, but I don’t think I am. Homosexual unions aren’t marriage, even though our culture recognizes them as such. Clearly I would apply the same logic of dealing with homosexual “marriage” as I would a polygamous one. I feel like Paul’s statement “such were some of you” implies a radical departing from former lifestyles, and that this is not a good place to apply the “stay where you were when saved” thinking.

[@ajlouviere202]

Wow! So many people going the wrong way through bad teaching.

[@TryHardCryHarder]

As much as I find polygamy an uninteresting option, and as clearly as the Bible demotes it in the grand scheme of God's plan (like disqualifying from position of Pastor), it can't be denied that polygamy is allowed in the Bible and it is traditions of man imposed upon the Scriptures that deny this. When David already had several wives, God told him he would have given him more if he was unsatisfied (notice it was a response to him taking Uriah's wife, 2 Samuel 12:8). Take special note of this: Joash had two wives that Jehoiada the priest retrieved for him, and the Bible's commentary in the immediately connecting verse says that he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord all the days of his life (2 Chronicles 24:2-3). We may not like that, but who cares? Certainly not God, its His world. God is right, we are wrong.

[@nathanwhite704]

if they're happy and their spouses are happy then i dont see the point of getting divorced. That "marriage is between one man one woman" thing people spew isnt in the bible every relationship God personally established in the bible involved polygamy and incest.

[@mandi3366]

Polygamy and incest is a sin. Incest dishonors your mother and father.

[@201950201950]

What crazy stuff we get into. All because we follow the flesh

[@danieldeluca4936]

No! It is because we add requirements that are nowhere to be found in the Word of God! This shouldn't even be a question! Jesus clearly said that whoever divorces his wife causes her to commit adultery! He didn't make any exceptions for polygny when He said that!

[@pennymacias5702]

As far as the U.S....polygamy is illegal so acquiring any additional wives would be adultery.

[@danieldeluca4936]

That is Western cultural definition of adultery. It is not a biblical understanding of what constitutes adultery. Do some more research. Read the Bible to see what it defines as adultery.

[@DatsDaven]

Hi Mike. Thanks for doing all of this study. The implications of polygamy is something I became aware of when I first heard about the "marriage permanence" teaching (no remarriage allowed). There were a few things that immediately occurred to me regarding God's views on polygamy. 1) In Leviticus, there are specific commands given regarding taking additional wives (do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife to vex her; do not lay with your brother's mother for she is your father's wife, etc.) 2) King David "fell" after he took Bathsheba, but prior to that, he was known as a man after God's own heart, and had six wives. 3) If polygamy is tantamount to unfaithfulness, for what reason does Christ use a parable about ten virgins? Does it make sense that He would use a sinful act as a metaphor for how to live as a saved person? I've tried to discuss this with others because I have a standard for conduct that requires me not to condemn what God does not condemn, however, most folks seem "afraid" to dissect this issue.

[@nathanodonnell5359]

God "married" sisters Judah and Israel (or Aholah & Aholibah) - which the law prohibits. So metaphors have their limits, even when God uses them. Therefore the ten virgins might not be meant to be taken as polygynous wives, or else approval/disapproval of polygyny is not the point. The parable is about having the faith to power the lamps, and false church members - not polygny. Just like how the unjust steward isn't about Godly accounting but using wisdom to be effective.

[@pastorart1974]

Once again this young wipper/snapper Pastor from California proves he is wiser than many of his peers. This is a subject I never thought about or considered.

[@brando3342]

Lon Spector It hasn't been "good" for a long time now.

[@ImCarolB]

@Lon Spector There are many places in the US and Canada that are mission fields for those strong enough to take it on. I have to laugh sadly when I read posts from people in the Bible Belt about all the fundamentalist churches everywhere, and "why don't you just go to another church?". Coming from New England, I don't have many options.

[@ellekatrina1900]

Thank you Mike for covering this topic. This has not directly affected me but just find it super interesting. You briefly mentioned the verse, 1 Corinthians 7:27. Does this mean as a single women who desires marriage, I shouldnt seek a spouse? I know you have questions left right and center but would love to know. As I feel there is not enough support for our singles in the church who want to be married and have a family. Thank you for all you do!

[@ImCarolB]

@Lon Spector As a Christian woman who has spent most of her life single, trust me and the many single women out there, there are far, far more single Christian women than men. I know it seems so hard to find the "right one", but it is true.

[@vanessaloy1049]

Lon Spector I have zero suitors.

[@vanessaloy1049]

Lon Spector I’m available, but I’m invisible to men.

[@WarandFlame]

Pslams says He who finds a wife finds a good thing. It's ok to want marriage

[@john3_14-17]

I haven't done as much study of 1 Cor 7 as I would like, but from what I understand, 1 Cor 7:27 is in reference to "the present distress" that Paul references in the previous verse (1 Cor 7:26), so that, until the distress was over, it would be better for those married and single to stay in that status, than to seek to change it. There are times in people's lives when they ought not to look for a spouse - e.g. - a man probably shouldn't look for a wife when he is unable to support himself. I don't think the verse is referring to all circumstances, otherwise marriage would be seen as a second-rate option below celibacy, which I don't think is scriptural. Hope this helps.

[@aidanmcmanus2752]

I'm sorry Mike, but you cannot apply 1 Cor 7:27 "Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed. Are you loosed from a wife? Do not seek a wife," to normal circumstances of everyday life. Paul only gave those instructions because of the unusual circumstances of the "present distress" in verses 26-32. If what Paul said doesn't even apply to normal marriages under normal circumstances, how do they apply to Polygamist marriages under any circumstances?

[@aidanmcmanus2752]

@Lon SpectorPaul said, "in view of the present distress it is well for a person to remain as he is. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage." Paul was giving instructions here not as general rules to govern in all circumstances, but were limited in their application to the special circumstances which Paul had in mind, and which he describes as the "present distress" (7:26-32).

[@danieldeluca4936]

@@aidanmcmanus2752 Polygyny is acceptable in the sight of God. He even portrayed Himself as the husband of two wives.

[@aidanmcmanus2752]

@@danieldeluca4936 You need to prove from the N.T. that Polygyny is acceptable to God.

[@IsraelNewTestament]

There are at least three possible interpretations of the phrase husband of one wife in 1 Timothy 3:2 (ESV). 1) It could simply be saying that a polygamist is not qualified to be an elder, a deacon or a pastor. This is the most literal interpretation of the English rendering of the phrase, but seems somewhat unlikely considering that polygamy was quite rare in the time that Paul was writing. 2) The Greek could literally be translated as “one-woman man.” In other words, a bishop must be absolutely loyal to the woman he is married to. This interpretation acknowledges that the original text focuses not on marital status but on moral purity. 3) The phrase could also be understood to declare that, in order to be an elder/deacon/pastor, a man can only have been married once, other than in the case of a remarried widower; in other words, a pastor cannot be a divorcé. Interpretations 2 and 3 are the most prevalent today. Interpretation 2 seems to be the strongest, primarily because Scripture allows for divorce in exceptional circumstances (Matthew 19:9; 1 Corinthians 7:12-16). It is also important to differentiate a man who was divorced and remarried before he became a Christian from a man who was divorced and remarried after becoming a Christian. An otherwise qualified man should not be excluded from church leadership because of his actions prior to coming to know the Lord Jesus Christ as his Savior. Although 1 Timothy 3:2 does not necessarily exclude a divorced or remarried man from serving as an elder/deacon/pastor, there are other issues to consider. The first qualification of an elder/deacon/pastor is to be “above reproach” (1 Timothy 3:2). If the divorce and/or remarriage had no biblical grounds, then the man has damaged his testimony in the church and community; the “above reproach” qualification will exclude him from the pastorate rather than the “husband of one wife” requirement. An elder/deacon/pastor is to be a man whom the church and community can look up to as an example of Christlikeness and godly leadership. If a past divorce and/or remarriage detracts from this ideal, then he should not serve in the position of elder/deacon/pastor. It is important to remember that, even though a man is disqualified from serving as an elder/deacon/pastor, he is still a valuable member of the body of Christ. Every Christian possesses spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:4-7) and is called to participate in edifying other believers with those gifts (1 Corinthians 12:7). A man who is disqualified from the position of elder/deacon/pastor can still teach, preach, serve, pray, worship, and play an important role in the church

[@venM9]

You are not going to get too many likes because you speak the truth. Even here are people who are desperately looking for loopholes to continue to live in sin and potentially get more wives and they need some kind of biblical justification for it.

[@timothyperkins5838]

The references to "illegal" or "secret" marriages as being "fake" are pretty troubling, coming from a teacher. God joins the man and woman, and set up that pattern before society existed; whatever the government or culture thinks about a marriage, its legitimacy does not depend on them.

[@johnrockwell5834]

Personally I believe they should stay married but they can't take any more wives. Divorce is too much of a problem.

[@danieldeluca4936]

I will agree that if they cannot afford to take care of more wives, they should stop, but if they can, there is nothing in Scripture that says that they shouldn't.

[@johnrockwell5834]

@@danieldeluca4936 Tell me. How much can a man really invest in his children when he has many wives. How could he fulfill his marital duties and everything else related to normal life. Exponentially expensive. Might as well be a Noble or a Royal to afford this.

[@ajlouviere202]

How can you advocate polygamy based on in not being specifically stated in the New Testament? This teaching questions whether or not adultery is a sin, and attempts to redefine it as a covenant of marriage. The reason Jesus is not calling for divorcing a second, or third, marriage after a divorce is because he only designates it as sin, not a covenant of marriage. So Jesus is calling remarriage after a divorce the sin of adultery in Matthew 5:31-32, Matthew 19:9, Mark 10:11-12, and Luke 16:18. He is commanding the married (not divorced and remarried), and separated, such as the abandoned husband in 1 Corinthians 7:10-11, "not to divorce" his wife, and the wife abandoning him to "remain unmarried or be reconciled" to her husband. To call for a divorce of an adulterous union would be to invalidate what God joins together as one-flesh, and allow man to define this sin as God's will. Remarriage after divorce is clearly stated as sin, by Christ, and all sin requires repentance, according to Luke 13:1-5 and Galatians 5:19-21.

[@sashtilalbachan4552]

This is a beautiful answer and it seriously empowers women. Thank you!

[@ImCarolB]

@Lon Spector Women who are abandoned by their husbands are not powerful, especially in countries where polygamy is accepted. They are often ostracized by society and even their own families. I think your scripture reference would apply to their spiritual state before the Lord, but in the physical sense, they might be in dire straits. The wife may not be converted, and this would send a message in the community that Christianity demands that men abandon their wives and families. And the children -- in those countries, the man often has the rights to his children, so the wife would lose her children.

[@sashtilalbachan4552]

@Lon Spector yes. Jesus' strength is made in our weakness and so by sharing this piece of advice also shares support to our sisters in situations like these. Our role is to keep using the Word of God to encourage and empower others.

[@danieldeluca4936]

Keith Martin has written a good article on the myth of the empowered woman.

[@reallifedavid]

This is such a tough issue. The bible doesn't do us favors on it by not clearly giving guidance. The cultures that the bible was written into certainly accepted polygamy as a normal part of life. And there were plenty of places for a prophet or apostle to say "don't do that, its naughty." And they just don't. If polygamy has a 1 to 1 correlation with adultery, every patriarch was living in constant unrepentant sin. The kind you rightfully dinged Ravi Zack for. Clearly the bible tells us that polygamy is bad for spiritual leaders but rules for spiritual leaders aren't higher or better. You said that in your last video. So I wrestle with the wrongness of polygamy. That used to be just an aside that I thought I would never deal with. But, as society moves away from traditional views of marriage, I think churches will eventually have to face it head on. I don't know that I can ban something in my church that the bible doesn't seem to clearly ban. But I also don't think we will be performing any polygamous marriages.

[@frumentiusricardo6149]

Thank you Mr. Winger for your time and patience with so many questions being asked of you. I truly enjoy your videos and always learn new things along the way. So I listened to your two part video on polygamy, and what if a person or persons get saved and are now faced with that question of what do we do now. And your first video seemed an easier to understand take although still a very complicated subject without a doubt. However your second part of the video you mentioned that you’ve been kinds wrestling with the first video you put out on the subject and that the polygamist even after salvation could possibly be commuting adultery and least the msn is and the women could get out if they wanted to because the man would be commuting adultery on his wives. Ok hope I got all that down almost accurate. Lol so my question would be then where in the Old Testament where polygamy was more showcased does it state that men like Abraham Isaac or Jacob/ Israel were indeed committing adultry on one or more of there Wife’s and why were there polygamist relationships never stated by the Lord as unrighteousness . For example when Jacob was tricked into taking Lea for a wife he then had to wait 14 years longer to wed Sara his true love so to speak and the women he initially wanted to be his wife. Now in 14 years The Lord never told Jacob that he would be committing adultly with at least one of his spouses and that this would be forbidden for him to marry Sara as well as Lea . Then there’s King David that besides the obvious Basheeba account he was never rebuked for having more than one wife, he was even referred to as being a man after God own Heart. So as I understand your concern for the prevalence and up and coming morale depravity in our world and the likely hood of immoral everything! I’m just not sure if I see your view on the subject, doesn’t mean I’m right either I could be in error so maybe this is something we could work on together 😊

[@povoq83]

Great addition. You've been very wise to wait a little because this was very important. Im talking for 3 years about posting Bible study of the endtimes on YT but I just cannot post anything because I still feel I lack some more insigth. I just need to wait and pray some more until God gives me the answers I need.

[@xianartman]

Interesting dichotomy that results that the husband to many wives has less right (has to keep the marriage(s) going) while the wives retain the rights and privilege of spouse status based upon their judgement. This is all for the same reason: the provision and protection of the spouse. It may feel unfair to the husband of many wives, but this feels like a just consequence of a polygamal marriage. I think it makes sense.

[@danieldeluca4936]

Sure, but Mike went astray from Scripture, when he said that the wife can remarry. Rom 7:2 says that if she does, she is an adulteress.

[@xianartman]

Daniel DeLuca you may want to review some of his videos on the subject. Did you see his first 3hr talk?

[@tonyw6590]

There is no allowance or example of any woman in scripture having more than one husband at the same time. The word for more than one wife is "Polygyny", where as Polygamy includes multiple wives, multiple husbands, and multiple husbands and wives or group marriage. I think it is important to use correct terms as we speak of these things. I do believe it is God's best to have only one wife and was his design from creation and his instruction for leadership in the church, but I can't find that God calls more than one wife sin. I do not recomend more than one wife and I do believe that more that one wife always makes life more difficult. The 12 tribes of israil were from one man and four women. King David had more wifes and God said he gave David his master's wives (2Sam 12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom ...)

[@mercantilefintech107]

The fact that God required the son of first wife would get a double portion. This show God had no issue with it otherwise he would have condemned it.

[@nathanp5711]

Duet 26:15-17 being the verses in question here, God does not require that the son of the first wife get special treatment, like you said, but that the man's *first born son* would not be deprived of his rightful inheritance as first born(double portion) if the man likes his new wife and kids more. Therefore it has nothing to do with which wife bore him the child, this command is referring to the birth order of the children. I'm not sure why God doesn't outright prohibit polygamy in the Law of Moses, but it seems like He did have an issue with it when you look at the story of Adam and Eve, and read what Jesus said in Matt 19. Consider when Jesus prohibits marrying another woman after a man divorces his first wife, claiming this is adulterous to the first wife. It follows that at the very least, in the new covenant it would be adultery to marry any woman beyond a first wife.

[@XeenMusic]

@@nathanp5711 The interesting thing about Jesus' statement is that he only condemned a man who divorces his wife for any reason other than sexual-immorality and marries another. He never condemned the following situations: #1 - A man marrying another wife in addition to his first one #2 - A man divorcing a wife for sexual-immorality and marrying another

[@danieldeluca4936]

@@nathanp5711 He didn't have any issue with Polygyny. He even portrayed Himself as a husband to two wives. He didn't prohibit polygyny, because it is not sinful!

[@andrewpatton5114]

@@XeenMusic Ignorant and unstable people twist the Scriptures to their destruction. How can it be adultery except he is still married to his first wife and forbidden from taking another while she still lives?

[@danieldeluca4936]

A woman that has two husbands, is committing adultery. Polygyny is never condemned in Scripture. Polyamory and Polyandry are.

[@cattywampusmcdoogle]

Hahahahahaha Solomon is always used for reason not to have multiple wives but it wasn't the many wives that got Solomon into trouble. It was Solomon building temples to other gods and worshiping the gods of some of his wives homeland. So idolatry, false gods and stepping away from his GOD is what did Solomon in.

[@topazblahblah]

One of the most righteous men in history, Abraham, for whom the covenant was established, had multiple wives. It was a fundamental part of his life and family.

[@IsaacSteele]

Abraham had a concubine, which even the Old Testament law never codified. Concubine just means someone you aren’t married to but are sleeping with. Hagar was Abraham’s only concubine and he took her as an act of faithlessness. Not merely to Sarai but lack of faith in God to provide the promised Son through his wife. That union caused great strife in his marriage and Islam was born from Ishmael’s descendants. The whole world is still suffering from that decision to take a concubine. There is no record that Abraham had relations with Hagar after Ishmael was conceived. And he sent her away after the strife was too great in his family. Abraham married another wife after Sarah died. He didn’t have another wife as long as his first wife was alive. Isaac also had only one wife. Jewish polygamy seems to start with Jakob. And as Mike pointed out, he’s often a bad example. I challenge anyone to show me one time in scripture where polygamy is shown in a good light. Leah accused Rachel of taking her husband. It wasn’t normal even then. At least not for the women. They certainly felt their husbands were being unfaithful. God went so far as to call a second wife the “adversary” of the first. That’s God’s opinion of the situation.

[@RedPillOfTheBible]

Minute 9. You have a catholic mind; it is not the marriage which is violated with adultery, it is the spouse who is violated.

[@andrewpatton5114]

If he had a Catholic mind, he'd have been adamant that the polygamist cease relations with all but his lawful wife. A man who refuses to do that is not to be baptized.

[@RedPillOfTheBible]

@@andrewpatton5114 I'm talking only about that point that I mentioned; that point is a catholic idea.

[@ArgothaWizardWars]

A wife must not separate from her husband. 1 Cor 7:10

[@danieldeluca4936]

And if she does, she must either remain single, or else be reconciled to her husband!

[@catholictruth102]

The context is obviously monogamy.

[@andreschaves523]

What would happen in the case of a married gay couple? Thanks for this Mike!

[@Cherub1m7]

I would say that the Bible describes marriage as between a man and a woman. So God dosent see them as Married

[@GregChacon]

Divorce.

[@kena2522]

I don't think it's a legitimate marriage.

[@GregChacon]

Kena it’s not.

[@mentilly_all]

*not married

[@Whatsoever_Thingz]

People in polygamous relationships that get saved requires making decisions that are all about damage control.

[@danieldeluca4936]

Since when????? Oh, since the Roman Catholic church decided that polygamy is a sin!

[@Whatsoever_Thingz]

@@danieldeluca4936 Polygamy is a sin. Matthew 19:9 "9. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." Incase you missed it 'adultery is a sin, it is engaging in sex with one who is not your spouse, whether you marry the next person/wife or not, it is adultery because you are already married to another. If one keep ingaging in polygamy when you know the truth, they will be judged accordingly by God.

[@MexicanMartialArts]

Ahh.. The age-old question.

[@thomasalbiston9650]

Grandmaster? Two of my favorite teachers in one place, crazy

[@MexicanMartialArts]

@@thomasalbiston9650 Ayy!! 😆 Mike's the homie! 😂

[@culturewarsdiplomacy]

One thing I disagree with. A marriage is an oath between the participants so even in cultures that do not recognize plural marriage like US the oath was still made promises were were still made and the obligations were still accepted, this is assuming it is poly not bigamy which is the Freud.

[@RedPillOfTheBible]

Minute 9:28 is funny how you got confused on your own logic hahaha sorry but I have to say in the love of our Lord Jesus Christ, you're still very contaminated by the Catholicism on this subject of marriage and divorce.

[@republiccooper]

Christianity is very practical without compromising. That's one thing of which I'm always reminded when such topics are thoughtfully addressed.

[@danieldeluca4936]

Christianity has been perverted by Roman Catholicism, starting with the early church fathers and their absolute hatred of any sexual intercourse. Read Thelyphthora for more info.

[@Mairiain]

Just generally wondering and off-topic: what is with the prevalence of apostrophes in wrong places lately nearly everywhere? (In this case, in the written title on the thumbnail.) I know the English language changes over time, so is this why many people do this? On topic: this is an interesting question and one I hadn't even thought about!

[@ImCarolB]

First thing I noticed! (Grammar Police Notice)

[@desleymendoza7445]

Although Abraham was never married to Hagar, one could rightfully argue that sending her away was disruptive to the child and put Hagar at extreme risk, yet God told Abraham to do so. What I would take from this is that if there is discord in the marriage due to these types of cultural practices (and there will be, particularly when people in the relationship come to Christ), radical action, even when it could put people at risk, may be necessary. The tension is in the risk of the inherently abusive situation that is polygamy and the risk of the upheaval of the institution. In the long run, it seems to me that it does more damage to draw out the relationship and perpetuate the sin.

[@mercantilefintech107]

A pastor of mine visited a home with 5 wives. One for cooking, another for grazing, another for children nursing, and another for fetching water. Which would he send away.

[@venM9]

How disabled is that guy that he needs 5 wives for various house chores? That's ridiculous. Does he chew his own food or does he need a wife for that also?

[@mercantilefintech107]

@@venM9 water is fetched like 10 km away. Cows have to be grazed,

[@danieldeluca4936]

@@mercantilefintech107 That was just great! Priceless! LOL! Disabled? How pathetic! I love how you responded to that!

[@mercantilefintech107]

@@danieldeluca4936 how many kiliometers do you think they travel to fetch water - 15? how many cows are their flocks -200? how many kids are nursed and cooked for -30?

[@nikichat4476]

@@mercantilefintech107 Every mother in my household is needed too.

[@nehifamily]

You mention Jacob.... what about Leah’s role in deceiving Jacob and trapping him into marriage to her when she knew he was to marry Rachel? I never see anyone address Leah’s sin. I’m not saying she was being adulterous, but the deception was certainly sinful. Is it just punishment for Jacob’s deceit?

[@danieldeluca4936]

She reaped what she sowed, but God intended for Jacob to have all four wives, because He was the One who closed Rachel's womb so that he would marry Bilhah and Zilpah as well.

[@paeng46]

To put it simple, if the cultural pattern of living allowed this kind of marriage, and you have been living with your wives in a polygamous condition of relationship, then you really have to bear the burden of responsibility of supporting them fairly and equally. The Bible said *”But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel”* (1 Timothy 5:8).

[@hawaii8461]

We have to look marriage in truly Biblical way! What type of marriage is LEAGAL FOR GOD! One man and one woman! Polygamist marriage is not approved Biblically, there for it’s not a divorce because there was no marriage in the first place! We also have to look at the times Solomon and the rest who had multiple wife’s it’s totally different from now-times! Back then mostly because of war there was always shortage of men and they needed to sustain the nation and that’s call Leverage marriages. A man who could support financially a larger family had more than one wife. I hope this brings clarity. Our Lord and Savior is so great, so amazing!!! Praise the Lord! God bless you!

[@danieldeluca4936]

Where in Scripture does it indicate that Polygyny is not legal? Have you not read Genesis 20:6, where God approved of Abimelech, saying that He knew that Abimelech had done this in the integrity of his heart? If that aint' approval, then what is? Your statement that it was not a marriage in the first place, contradicts Scripture, which clearly states that Lamech MARRIED two women. Solomon, is an argument from extreme. There is a lot of middle ground between having two wives, and having 700. We have war nowadays! Men die younger than women. Younger widows were commanded to remarry, and Paul said that they could marry anyone they choose. It's called Levirate marriage. Indeed our Lord and Savior is great and amazing!

[@kathleens.laroche754]

This IS a thorny issue and I appreciate your honesty in working to think it out biblically. However, and I could be getting into deep water here, if we say that polygamy is categorically sinful outside of Christianity, then are we saying that God caused the patriarchs to be born out of sinful relationships? That does not seem to make sense.

[@danieldeluca4936]

Perhaps it is not so thorny if you follow through with your research to discover that Scripture never condemns polygyny.

[@py20]

What about a thief who's been driving a stolen car for years and comes to Christ. Does he return the car to its rightful owner and face whatever legal consequences there is for his criminal act, or keep driving it because returning same might cause him harm? Is the doctrine of Restitution still valid under the new covenant at all?

[@jerimyspencer1541]

This is something as a westerner I have realized can not be answered divorced (pun?) from the cultural context, especially in Africa. While at seminary I took a course on Anthropology for Missions, and several Africans (none polygamous) began to argue with each other over the subject of polygamy. I realized this was not a simply answered subject at all! Another great source is a book called So I Married You by Walter Trobisch, which conveys his experiences in Africa. If a woman has had sex with her husband, and she is divorced because she is the second or third wife, she is left unprotected and may end up vulnerable in several ways, including resorting to prostitution because no other man will take her in as a wife and care for her. This is a very serious thing to consider especially if the context of some cultures may have these challenges and complexities.

[@lilchristuten7568]

Well, when it comes to the issue of divorce in the vein of adultery, it really doesn't matter, the scripture on "if they are not content to live with you then let them leave" already covers the issue of adultery, there is no need to specifically expand the field. There is however there is an issue that you spoke on that is problematic. That is the issue of 1 woman having multiple husbands. That case wasn't even covered/allowed in the old testament so it could be a serious potential issue. There is also the fact that in his teachings, and in the old testament the allowance to initiate divorce rested solely with the husband (looking at the statistical data on divorce kinda shows why). There is another issue of polygamy between 1 person and 2 other people who have different sexes. 2 people of the same sex cannot be married in God's eyes but the law where they live may allow it. I personally think that the solution would be to end the "marriage" between the two who are of the same sex period.

[@Toadzx]

I have to disagree with you on that last point. I can’t justify saying that it’s adulterous against one wife to sleep with your other wife. I could say the act of taking a second wife is adulterous but not anything after that. The Bible never implies Jacob committed adultery.

[@scottspeig]

Agreed - Which is why the polygamous party would stay married and love each one equally showing no favouritism.

[@danieldeluca4936]

The act of taking a second wife, is only adulterous, if she was the wife of another man, who is still alive. Do some more research on this topic. You may be surprised where it leads you. Scripture is gender specific, and too many times, people apply gender specific passages, in a gender neutral way.

[@andrewpatton5114]

What Jacob did was lawful, but the New Testament imposes a higher standard. What was allowed under the Old Covenant because of the hardness of men's hearts is forbidden to Christians. The act of taking a second wife while the first still lives is adulterous, and every act of relations in that sham marriage is adulterous. Unrepentant adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

[@mequint2000]

I think you're spot on with your initial teaching. On your ending however, have you considered how adultery is defined in the bible (the Torah specifically)? There are indications that adultery is defined differently to how we define it in Western society. Marriage in the west is often based on a skewed romantic ideal compared to the rest of the world where it is often a means for the survival and wellfare of the woman (which you touched on briefly). All that said, I do believe monogamy is God's intention and it has proven to be a major factor for stable societies.

[@dvargaaw]

I've dealt with this a lot working in the jungles of Ecuador.... It's tough! It causes LOTS of issues in the villages and communities very similar to those of Abraham's and Jacob's families and others in the old Testament... I think that you handled it well brother!

[@gsmiro]

Polygamy is not adultery. If that’s the case God would have prohibited polygamy in the Law of Moses. Abraham did not commit adultery with Hagar. Jacob did not commit adultery with his two wives and two concubines. Adultery is to have relationship with another persons’ wife or husband. David committed adultery with Barsheba but after her husband died and David married her while having many other wives he did not commit adultery after that. Polygamy is not the ideal plan from God but it’s not the same as adultery.

[@johnzahm193]

Jesus elaborated on the definition of adultery, "whoever looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart" so thoughts of lust is adultery, why God allowed Jacob and Moses to do what they did I don't know but it's something that I would like to understand, and I don't know if lust was in the mix or not