If God Is All Powerful, Can He Make Something More Powerful Than Himself? w/ Fr. Gregory Pine, OP

In this segment, Fr. Gregory asks the question: If God is omnipotent, can he make something heavy enough that he can't lift it?
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[@marilynmelzian7370]

On a lighter note, my late husband was hired to try to develop a hover board. Because of the amount of power needed, it was a rather large one (the motor that powered it had to be on the board). The difficulties in creating one became quite clear. He managed to get it off the ground, but there was no way of guiding it or steering it. Of course, he wasn’t given a very big budget to try this.😊

[@TyroneBeiron]

He should have consulted with Joe of Cupertino first. 😆

[@Cojo910]

Someone once asked me if there was anything God can't do. I said Yes, He can't lie, die, or create anything without a purpose. Even a child trained to ask such a question has a God-given purpose.

[@st.michaelthearchangel7774]

Very interesting! In other words: He cannot sin, and praise God for that! Amen.

[@BlessedisShe]

So good!

[@w3ab]

By having a Bachelor's degree in philosophy I may be somewhat qualified to offer some additional thoughts of my own while commenting on a KZbin video: very good coverage of the issue in the video. One rhetorical point that I might add is that these questions presuppose some kind of desire by God to create contradictions. Since what God desires happens and conversely as well. And insofar as contradictions are an offense against wisdom (a virtue) these questions presuppose a kind of evil in God. So in that sense I do believe God passively wills some kind of contradictions like those in our human minds which we have a hand in "creating". However in the sense that God created nature, he creates no evil. So one will never find a contradiction. For the reason that he can't/doesn't want to reduce his own power. Which made my friend describe these sorts of questions as equivalent to why can't technology take us back to the stone age?

[@doreenvandermerwe2027]

Thank you Father Pine for a great podcast as you share your thoughts with us. I'm beginning to love Thomas Aquinas, that is the little I can grasp as I'm a slow learner.

[@aneyeforcapitalism6531]

This is why the concept of logos is so pivotal to these kinds of conversations. God is not just pure action or some kind of demiurge, he is. Because he is, through his love he creates a reality in which makes sense, in which the human mind can know the properties of the reality he lives in, whether through a priori means or through empirical means. Questions like these ultimately come down to the same fundamental question, should God create a reality where it’s own essence makes no sense? Which of course any reasonable person would say no.

[@Shmapn]

excellent and timely video by a great priest! Love this guy! was just thinking about the rock question the other day and recognized it as a loaded question and "gotcha" but couldn't argue it. Appreciate this clarification!

[@liltimytheboy5691]

''rocky agency'' lol thx Fr u made my day, GREAT VID as always

[@christiandpaul631]

I learned in school… That God can and does change the past. If you pray for someone today it can alter their past because God heard and responded to your prayer. We don’t know that their past was changed because we only know the course that the person did take and not the course their lives would have taken had you not prayed. This was part of a discussion about praying for people in purgatory. Praying for dead people could have changed their course in life that they did not deserve purgatory. Your prayer years after they died kept them from going to purgatory when they passed years ago. (Also time is not linear it is stacked. Everything that occurred in the history of the world happened in one blinding flash of an unmeasurable fraction of time.)

[@gabrielparent]

As Jesus quoted to the devil in the desert : "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." It is preposterous to try God in the first place.

[@diannalaubenberg7532]

I always ask, "Why would He want to?"

[@CanisDei]

♾ = ♾ In Him, everything exists. God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. If God creates something powerful, He becomes powerful equivalent to Himself. Infinity cannot be greater or lesser than infinity.

[@MrsYasha1984]

Did you put a picture of the Unspunnenstein in the thumbnail? I love it!

[@gabolujan3109]

Interesting

[@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319]

The version I keep hearing is "Can God write a script so complicated that even He can't comprehend it?"

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

I think He can, both the Father and the Spirit can create scripts the Son can't understand.

[@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319]

@Greg Gauthier Naw that seemed more like the work of some inbred Nephilim. As Tolkien put it, evil cannot create, it can only corrupt.

[@christianazacarias]

Would you consider the claim that the human capacity for God’s Knowing is precisely the intelligible, while that by which is beyond our capacity for which our enterprise pursues is unintelligible yet within God’s Knowing?

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

In a nutshell: physical objects are potentially moveable. A rock is a physical object. A physically unmoveable thing wouldn't be a rock. Without even discussing God, the question is nonsense.

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

@YAJUN YUAN Isn't it part of the definition of an object that it retain its boundaries if it were to translate location?

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

@@EduardoRodriguez-du2vd Ooo! That's a good one! I hadn't thought of "too big to lift" as having anything other than to do with weight and brute force. However, if you mean "too big dimensionally to exist in more than (the united) one place" I'm out of my league. I have no idea what the edge of space is like or how things that can physically exist there relate to it (or how anyone can know the rules of physics there). In that case, go for Fr. Pine's longer explanation. And thanks for the head scratcher.

[@me-ds2il]

God is the uncreated. From this came all created things

[@CanisDei]

Father, I just have some thoughts. Rock is a physical object that i.e., is made of molecules, atoms, neutrons etc. But the effort required to lift a rock depends on the factors such as gravity. Space and time have a lot to impact gravity. If there is the exact space and time, we can lift any object in this Universe. For we humans could lift anything assuming the right space and time exists, God who created time, space can do anything. He is time, space, atoms and everything. In Him, we live. So the question is just to think deeper about the glory of God. Does it make sense?

[@me-ds2il]

Short answer: Q: Since God is order and not chaos why would it do anything contrary to it's nature? A: It wouldn't. Q: But isn't that limiting and how can a true God have limitations? A: Aha...enter the devil. Gods giving nature allows for it's opposite to exist. Ta Da 🎵

[@ronaldfrechette2045]

I like the George Carlin one about you are on a ship at sea, it's Easter Sunday, you need to do your Easter duty, then you run out of time, it's too late, but you wanted to receive, then you cross the international date line.

[@csongorarpad4670]

.... what?

[@henrysharpe9976]

@@csongorarpad4670 he is talking about crossing the date line backwards, so that he would still be on Easter Sunday and have time to receive

[@csongorarpad4670]

@@henrysharpe9976 aaah I see! thank you. do you know what it may have had to do with the video's content? I'm pretty lost

[@michal_marczynski]

I recently had a conversation with a certain gentleman, who actually opposed these arguments, claiming that God is either omnipotent, or not, and there is no distinction of intelligible or logically possible. An omnipotent being cannot be bound by logic or any other higher rules, even if it comes from him, he cannot be bound by it. It's hard to argue with such claims, even though they sound absurd to me.

[@AndrewDDufresne]

Its absurd because it means God is bound by human abstractions of the laws of being. Its like saying there could be two Gods because if there was a God he would be above the logic of monotheism, as christians we know this is not possible.

[@Chicken_of_Bristol]

If they insist on going down that route, then there's no problem at all. God can indeed create a rock so heavy He cannot lift it, and then if He decided He wanted to, He would lift it anyway. The logical contradiction created by the thought experiment isn't a proof that God can't exist, it's just an example of some of the things God can do. This is obviously unintelligible, but your interlocutor doesn't seem to see that as a problem at the start, so you shouldn't see it as a problem at the end either. Or to put it another way, this is only a problem because they usually try to sneakily change their definition of omnipotent halfway through the argument. If omnipotence is "above" logic, then you can't use logic to show omnipotence can't exist.

[@kevinh2345]

Whoever was in the conversation asserting that logic goes out the window decided to throw their argument out the window with it. If rationality is no longer a factor, then the assertion itself is simple absurdity.

[@henrysharpe9976]

@@Chicken_of_Bristol well said

[@TyroneBeiron]

These 'Pines 🌲 with Aquinas' leaves me pining for Moore. 🤣 Puns aside, I dunno about God and any Rock 🪨 he can't lift... but I do-know he let himself bear the weight of a patibulum almost exactly two millennia ago and fell under it at least a couple of times and that made me love Him immensely for showing my likeness in Him and opening me inside out to be more like Him. 😉

[@me-ds2il]

Can God uncreate "himself" and then bring "himself" back?

[@me-ds2il]

@Lolopopolo Okay good answer

[@MrCheesywaffles]

Lol. I think if we assume the almighty God of Christianity, then He is the one who defined heaviness... so posessing the capacity to redefine it, He is not limited in either way (not strong enough, or not able to make an object of infinite heaviness). You said it much better than I can. Paradoxes are interesting but in these cases they are proposing a limited or in some way finite God, or are starting with a contradiction.

[@gonzalomorales1342]

I would think that God experiencing the human suffering of being separated from him is conceivable but is it bringaboutable?

[@the0s0ph1st]

“My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?”

[@thomasgronek6469]

@@the0s0ph1st I have pondered this. Jesus always had the Beatific Vision as a human, to the end of His life, so it wasn't that. However, He felt something, it wasn't that He, or mankind was abandoned either. He also said "I thirst", , , Not for liquid, but for the salvation of all (I think, only my idea). But that wasn't it either. It was something, but I don't recall what it was (I haven't been listening while I pray)..

[@DominiCanes94]

Psalm 22 read it

[@thomasgronek6469]

I don't know that all of us feel separated from Him. Surely the Saints, and those aspiring to be Holy, and lead a good Spiritual life feel that, and I think that those completely void of Him would feel that also. It's those in the middle, the 'luke warm' ones that feel neither total separation, nor unity, might feel as though something is lacking in their life. (it's hard for me to put into words), These are only my thoughts. We don't have the IQ of angels, and God has extended 'time' for us to make the decision as to whether or not we want to be with him, our decision is not / cannot be immediate because we are encumbered by our body, our body's maladies, demonic influence, etc. [off topic, sorry]. So yes, it is Bringaboutable (Really good word) through prayer and suffering, His absence in one's life will be recognized, and [hopefully, (bad word, indicating lack of faith)] that person, for whom we pray and suffer will have manifested within them, the Grace of God, which would promote them to Seek Him, and be with Him, in this life, and in the next. [Only my thoughts, , , If we are not with Him in this life, we won't be with Him in the next. (Unless prayer and intervention from a loved one, or saint, etc (death bead intervention/conversion) takes place]. Good question, Thanks for making me think. [yes, I am leaving stuff out]

[@thomasgronek6469]

@@DominiCanes94 Not just to be read , but to be understood, Is this in reference to the fact that His people did not accept Him ?

[@scottcraig77]

If God becomes man (which he did) he can’t move the rock he made as God. So yes, he can make a rock so heavy he can’t move it.

[@gonzalomorales1342]

Wait. He didn't become man but was made man. He was (and is) man without ceasing to be God.

[@scottcraig77]

@@gonzalomorales1342 The laws of nature still applied so you could say that He could make something so have he couldn’t lift it?

[@csongorarpad4670]

You seem to miss the crucial detail of Christ being true man AND TRUE GOD.

[@scottcraig77]

@@csongorarpad4670 yes, I was missing it. Thank you.

[@Qualier]

The questions are really challenges to the idea of omnipotence and whether it is intelligible, or contradictory? You seem to dismiss the questions and as a result the challenge regarding omnipotence. Does God create logic or is he subject to it? I would love to hear your views on this.

[@gonzalomorales1342]

God is logic.

[@csongorarpad4670]

As Gonzalo Morales already pointed out; God is logic itself. Read Thomistic metaphysics to get a deeper understanding of why it is that one cannot say that God "has" logic or why any other answer than "God is logic" misses the point entirely.

[@johnnytass2111]

Pharaoh's hardened heart.

[@MarlboroughBlenheim1]

It’s so interesting to see how humans create the idea of god, and then spend so much time arguing about it.

[@misterprogressive8730]

Why would god want to lift a rock? And why is this question so important? Maybe mr. Pine doesnt have anything else to do but asking questions that nobody asks?

[@Bernadette613]

Doesn’t so much of this also come down to the limitations of language as well? So some artic cultures have tons of words for “Snow” and things get lost In translation. What if a square circle exists in a heavenly concept that we just yet do not understand because of the limitations of our own human form and being but also due to our limited language which cannot yet name the concept? There are states of matter that do not exist on Earth that we believe to exist on other planets. I think we cannot limit God because we cannot even understand all physical matter in our own solar system let alone galaxy, let alone in the universe. To assume that these silly contradictions prove there is no God or that God is limited is quite arrogant especially when many will extend belief in the unknown to UFO’s or “higher intelligent forms”. It’s why I always understood how someone could be agnostic, leaning towards atheism, but to be purely atheistic seems interesting to me considering we barely understand the depths of our own oceans on earth. How can we be certain of anything in this life?

[@st.michaelthearchangel7774]

Is it at all possible to explain this in a non-philosophical way? It's rather difficult to understand what you are saying, Fr. Gregory. :)

[@marcellheureux7681]

I like eating green beans.

[@TyroneBeiron]

And producing Natural Gas. 🤭

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

The Father can't create a rock too heavy for him to lift, but he can create a rock too heavy for Jesus to lift, and since Jesus is God, yeah, he can do both. You can't untie the characteristics if trinity from the omnipotence debates

[@sir.joshuarane.doebler3762]

God doesn't like challenging riddles? If God places a rock on a hillside and says that's my rock you can't break it and then human nature calls it a challenge they work to break the rock by doing so they break themselves!

[@TyroneBeiron]

Something similar happened in Eden with some Tree and its fruit and boy, what did that 'challenge' result in! 🫢

[@ScreamingReel500]

No servant is greater than the master. These silly questions are silly at best. No more no less. Can you sneak up to a cat? Yes. Can you sneak up to a tree? No. Can you sneak up to yourself? No. Can you lie to a cat? No. Can you deceive a cat? Yes? What is the difference of lying and deceiving? Keep running in circle, aren't you? What is language? A mode of communication. Is human language reliable? Yes, but to some degree, not absolute. Why use language to communicate the absolute? There is no other mean to man. Models (Exploring religious beliefs and nonreligious beliefs) 1-There is a cage and if you go inside, you will be happy forever, or you can stay outside and be misery. Do you choose to stay inside the cage or outside? 2-There is a bubble and if you go inside, you will be happy forever, or you can stay outside and be misery. Do you choose to stay inside the bubble or outside? 3-There is an island and if you go to there, you will be happy forever, or you can stay outside and be misery. Do you choose to stay in the island or outside? 4-There is a universe and if you go inside, you will be happy forever, or you can stay outside and be misery. Do you choose to stay inside the universe or outside? (Happiness = peace, joy, well-being. If happiness is achieved, is it matter if it is a cage, a bubble, an island or a universe?) 5-Do you prefer to be in the cage sometimes and outside the cage sometimes (this condition similar to be living right now on earth)?

[@me-ds2il]

God doesn't create things God created mother nature from which all things come into being. Mankind decided to separated itself in order to experience that which was created. The original sin. Am I wrong? IDC. I will believe it until proven wrong

[@TyroneBeiron]

Before the laws of nature came into fullness as we know it today from life and organic compounds, there was also that micro moment just after the 'Big Bang' in quantum time where these didn't exist as we know it today, as primordial energy coalesce into particles before these became atoms and molecules and then minerals and compounds and sparked the first fusions and fission processes to create new matter. The 'pagan' concept of personalising Nature is somewhere down that line. That very first spark ⚡️ that set our whole cosmos and universe into 'being' is what is meant when we say God created all things. 😁

[@me-ds2il]

Sorry but I don't believe the "Big Bang" happened exactly as they say it did. True science is never a styled thing. It's not supposed to be. It only reflects the current best understanding of things. There's always other things occurring that need to be a taken into account which eventually will be. Had enough money been spent disproving the Big Bang it would've been. There's mounting evidence for it. Nothing comes from nothing. What's more likely is that the universe has always existed just perhaps in different forms. God is not the anthropomorphized universe bcz God transcends all created things as the uncreated eternal essence. The reason we anthropomorphize God is bcz of the need to understand it as it relates to us