Balin's Mission to Moria Explained

[@davidlewis8814]

That’s quite something, that the orcs dammed the one side and trapped the waters with the Watcher before attacking the other gate. It really shows them far more capable of cunning and strategy than I had thought.

[@TheEvertw]

Orcs are not mindless. In the snippets we overhear through Pippin and Sam & Frodo, we see them being clever and resourceful. That is what I like about fiction from the past: all parties involved are competent: friends and foes. In modern fiction, stupid mistakes are used as plot devices. Not so in yesteryear. Things were much more cleverly written.

[@WardenWolf]

@D G Though in the book, the Battle of Helm's Deep wasn't nearly as hopeless as it was in the movie. They'd already basically won by the time Gandalf and party arrived.

[@apanickedseagull]

If you ever play Shadow of Mordor they really dig into Orc lore. They have a society and a culture.

[@moodyowlproductions4287]

Goblins.....there goblin orcs

[@takumi2023]

you're probably right. the maority of the orcs aren't that bright but there are a few bright ones that makes it so dangerous.

[@magalengo]

"The end comes soon. We hear drums, drums in the deep. They are coming." Those words often haunt me. When your ambition turns against you.

[@DeathRecon]

Should've brought a main character with them

[@minimalrho]

For whatever reason, I really liked Balin when I first read The Hobbit. It was really quite sad reading about his ultimate fate in FotR.

[@EndOfSmallSanctuary97]

Still, he died in a heroic and worthy cause, trying to reclaim his people's homeland despite being massively outnumbered, similar to Thorin in a way. His final adventure in Moria is one of the coolest and most interesting bits of lore of LOTR.

[@velkonemriam1935]

Balin, Gandalf, and Bilbo together at the end of the Hobbit is still one of my favorite endearing book endings ☺️

[@christiangraff5236]

What is Fotr?

[@tubehugger]

@@christiangraff5236 Fellowship Of The....

[@paulsarnik8506]

I liked Balin the best because he was closest to Bilbo and the rest of the reasons the video stated!🤓😎🖖🏻

[@istari0]

Balin forgot what Dain had said to Thrain at the end of the Battle of Azanulbizar: "Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane. The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin's Folk walk again in Moria." It was a fatal mistake.

[@Wolfeson28]

Very true. Although, going along with what Robert pointed out here, from the time of that quote to the point where Balin set out, the dwarves had good reason to feel like the world *had* changed for the better for them. They had reclaimed one homeland from a seemingly impossible foe, so why not another? Ultimately a mistake, of course, but a more understandable one.

[@istari0]

@@Wolfeson28 Still, the Dwarves knew Smaug was dead. They didn't know that about Durin's Bane. Khazad-dûm fell in T.A. 1981. The Battle of Azanulbizar was in 2799, almost 800 years later, when Dain saw Durin's Bane was still there. It was a little under 200 years later that Balin led the expedition to Moria. A terrible lapse in judgement by an otherwise very wise dwarf.

[@Wolfeson28]

@@istari0 I was thinking from the perspective of before the Quest of Erebor even got started. Smaug would have seemed almost as impossible of an obstacle as the Balrog initially, yet somehow in the end they managed to reclaim Erebor. If somehow luck and fate could deliver them one homeland from such an enemy...couldn't it happen again? It's an understandable, if ultimately tragic, thought process.

[@siriusczech]

@@Wolfeson28 This. And also what it stated above - Sauron probably played his role in it. He had forces and intelligence to plan and he wanted to divide dwarves as much as possible for the upcoming "war of the ring" he had in plan. So when "rumors abour wealth being left there practically unguarded in Moria" started to spread around Erebor and Dale, it could have definitely be of Sauron´s doing. And Balin with many other dwarves listened and went for a try, leading to their demise as well as weakening Erebor before what was to come. Propaganda, misinformations, delusions and such are always a good tool to use in weakening enemies unity, resolve, strength and numbers, today in our world or in books. And Sauron was definitely making his schemes as well, as did Gandalf with his plan.

[@unclenogbad1509]

@@Wolfeson28 Agree. After all, it was a fairly small band of dwarves that regained Ereborn (plus a wizard and hobbit, of course) so why couldn't a large party do the same in Moria? Plus, you can imagine Balin, with all the misfortunes of his people during his long lifetime, feeling compelled to make that one last try. And also, maybe, if he was going to die, that's where he wanted it to happen. I can imagine the dwarves who went with him having a similar motivation, aware of the dangers, but needing to try.

[@briantneary2248]

To me, this is the best LOR lore channel PERIOD

[@YrnehLrak]

This, and nerd of the rings

[@briantneary2248]

@@YrnehLrak absolutely

[@MihanTheNoob]

LOtR* xdd

[@chasingmoonlightfarm]

I think him having a British accent makes it even better.

[@briantneary2248]

@@chasingmoonlightfarm ALWAYS. Even every audiobook I listen to has to have an English narrator. Lol I'm American, btw. Haha

[@legionarybooks13]

Sad when one realises the skeleton holding the tome Gandalf finds is Ori. 😢

[@retro.raider]

Nooooo really??? That’s so sad

[@PboiStrider]

It can't be he was killed by the watcher in the water?

[@legionarybooks13]

@@PboiStrider That was Oin, the one in the film who was depicted as old and nearly deaf (though he wasn't in the books).

[@PboiStrider]

@@legionarybooks13 ahhh or course thank you

[@deadinthebed963]

He was irritating in hobbit film but loyal

[@Uncle_Fred]

Balin's quest to reclaim Moria was noble and ambitious but ultimately short-sighted. With so few, it would have been absolutely vital to maintain safe passage from the eastern gate to friendly territories, along with at least one other secret exit. The Western gate was just too far away to be continuously watched and not designed to be defended. There's the endless stair, but it's not known if Balin discovered that or if there's any way to access it outside the Under-deeps. Balin was smart enough not to attempt that journey. Moreover, to protect the eastern gate, they'd need to pacify the surrounding hills and mountain areas, which they clearly didn't have the numbers to accomplish. The dwarves very unwisely entered a trap and allowed their enemies to creep in from the shadows and surround them.

[@WardenWolf]

There's also no real way down from the peak of the mountain aside from that stairway. Gandalf was taken down by an eagle.

[@timnikolaev6707]

SHOOOOOORT?

[@IskandarTheWack]

I mean they took down 100's if not 1000's of orcs with their smallish group, not like 12 guys and a hope was going to take it from the dwarves with all their defensive positions and dwarf swoleness.

[@landonletterman831]

Think about it, though. After his small company did all that they did taking back the Misty Mountain, all that they survived, this had to have had a profound effect on what the dwarf thought he could do with just a small company (factoring in dwarven hubris) I like to think his last thought was, _"If only we'd brought a thief and a wizard!"_

[@kaoofdeath1659]

The reason behind Balin's colony was actually bit more complicated. Sometime after return to Ereborn, rumors or whispers started to spread among dwarfs. Those rumors remind them about riches they left behind in Moria, and told that they would be strong enough to return. However, king Dane the second dismissed them, probably due fear of Durin's Bane. Balin however listened the whispers and started to prepare for expedition to Moria. While Dane refused to support or fund it, he let it happen. Source of rumors was unknown, which leaves room to speculation, that it was trap designed by Sauron to weaken the dwarfs of Ereborn and potentially even lead king Dane II himself to his demise.

[@legionarybooks13]

It's definitely feasible, given Sauron's greatest weapon is deception. That his emissaries also came to Erabor (possibly either the Nazgul or Mouth of Sauron, it's never confirmed) this adds credence to the theory. With both King Dane and King Brand of Dale killed by the Easterlings, and Erabor under siege, the dwarves were essentially eliminated from the War of the Ring.

[@chriscooper654]

Exactly. Sauron knew the desire to retake Moria would lure at least some of Dain's folk away from Erebor, weakening the Dwarves in the upcoming war. Sowing division among his enemies was one of his oldest, best tactics.

[@Marin3r101]

That is bs. People seem to have this fascination about dwarves being greedy.... IDG has already spoken on dwarves and their perceived "greed." Short of it is, they were not greed driven. They mined and dug deep. That is all. With that came corrupted dwarves who were greed driven. Balin has proven again and again, he did not suffer from that. But people love their fan-fiction.

[@erikthomsen4768]

It would not be the first time he had pulled such a trick: Thorin's grandfather had suffered the same fate in Moria and Thorin's father would be ambushed in route to reclaim the Lonely Mountain by Sauron. By tempting Dain to campaign in Moria he might be able to decapitate the leadership of the Kingdom of Durin's Folk and by extension divide the lesser Dwarven kings. Perhaps even weakening the Ererbor Garrison enough to take the strategic fortress.

[@harveywallbanger3123]

That was literally the extent of all the power Sauron wielded over the dwarves: their rings of power only make them isolated and myopic, and only within the framework of their preexisting fixations. Sauron thus could distract and sideline the dwarves with insular selfishness, but he could never turn their hearts to his cause as he did so easily with men.

[@kondrikov]

This story links two movies so well,really adds depths to it. Thank you for making this peace of lore so accessible and moving!Beautiful job

[@Storm-Fury56]

F*ck the movies. They had very little to do with the books. Jackson stole and plagiarized Tolkien's work.

[@Valsorayu]

*Books

[@dragonlordskater5028]

I never made the connection between Ori of the Hobbit and the bookskeep of Moria. The fact that Gabdalf knew him makes the scene so much more tragic.

[@cchavezjr7]

The only thing that still made me wonder is how could nobody know what happened. Once communication was lost, it's hard to believe nobody was sent to investigate or that nobody made it out to seek reinforcements, etc.

[@kerim.peardon5551]

And there he was, pulling the book away from his corpse.

[@InhabitantOfOddworld]

​@@cchavezjr7 Communication isn't much of a thing in Middle Earth - the Shire has a postal service, but that's the best they have.

[@cchavezjr7]

@@InhabitantOfOddworld Communication between a kingdom and it's colonies would most definitely be a thing. There should be messages and at times, supplies and production from the mines, etc.

[@InhabitantOfOddworld]

@cchavezjr7 Yes, but not on expeditions. This has real life precedent. Look at the various lost expeditions throughout history. Look at Franklin's lost expedition. Look how even in 2023, with all our modern tech, it took days to find what happened to an imploding sub. You're missing the point, because it's not about communication between a kingdom and it's colonies. This isn't a case of sending a letter from Erebor to the blue mountains. This is a small group of dwarves undertaking a perilous mission to Moria - a ruin, not a colony - and not a single one making it out alive. *NONE* of them had the means of producing a letter, sending a raven, or whatever medieval means of communication exists in Middle Earth. That's assuming they even have that, considering Gandalf travels around everywhere for his messages instead of using any communication whatsoever, it can be safely assumed that there basically is no communication. You could maybe ask "should Erebor have sent a search party to look for them?", but as per real life examples, it takes years before people start to think something went wrong. It took 2 years before anyone realised the Franklin expedition wasn't coming home. Besides, every dwarf knew that Durin's Bane was there. Gandalf knew, prior to the Fellowship choosing that way. Even if the dwarves considered a search party, they'd know exactly what doomed them and the answer would be "fuck that".

[@TheDeadlyKnight]

Biggest reason it was doomed: even if the dwarf pilgrims withstood the numerous prospecting goblins, & avoided the Watcher creature, Durin’s Bane still very much haunted the stronghold. They never encountered Him during their 5 years, but inevitably they would have

[@rikk319]

It shows how huge a volume of space Moria took up, that the dwarves could live there and search through it for 5 years, and yet never come upon the balrog's haunts.

[@evilsharkey8954]

And it wasn’t something that could be defeated with anything they had. It took another Maia with an enchanted Elven sword and help from the gods to defeat it.

[@YounanPhoto]

You know it’s also doomed because there’s a balrog in there 😂

[@tph951]

​@@YounanPhoto that's what Durins bane is 😂

[@MatildaV1980]

@@tph951Thank you!🙏🏻 I’ve always felt too stupid to ask what Durin’s Bane was. I thought it was a curse or something. It was the Balrog!

[@IDPhotoMan]

The "Drums in the Deep" scene in the movie was arguably the most gripping scene in the whole Trilogy. I read the books many times before the movies came out, and that was the one part i was looking forward to, and i wasn't let down.

[@augustineliyanda1465]

Balin is a beloved Tolkien character, but perhaps the love we have for him as a character can cloud our judgment on what his true intentions were when he took up the quest to reclaim Moria. Balin's quest was fueled by the rumors of the riches left in Moria. The haste at which he was quick to declare victory and declare himself Lord of Moria even with Orcs still present in Moria is indicative of a very desperate man with a limited time frame. Balin was royalty, he had a slim legitimate claim to the throne and he must have thought of his quest as his last chance to prove his royalty. His death is somehow poetic because he visited the Mirrormere Lake that the first Durin gazed into and saw a crown of stars on his head that signified his right to rule and set up his kingdom there. Balin must have been weighed down by thoughts of his illegitimate rulership and visited the lake to seek any signs that can prove he is indeed a legitimate ruler of Moria. His death at the lake, however, was the outcome. A fitting end to a beloved character. I would like to believe when he gazed into the lake he saw the doom that awaited his quest and accepted his fate.

[@slagatta]

Epic next-level analysis. Thanks!

[@donweatherwax9318]

Notice that when Roäc the Raven responds to Thorin's summons, the old bird only greets two Dwarves by name: Thorin... and Balin.

[@neildaly2635]

Balin also went to Moria hoping to find Thror’s ring of power, not knowing he gave it to Thrain before entering Khazadum. Closed mouthed were Durin’s folk.

[@Neenerella333]

I love that you showed the Rankin and Bass drawing of him. I own an illustrated book of that movie and it ignited my interest in Tolkien as a 10 year old.

[@crusher0427]

I have that same book. I think it weighs about 10 lbs.

[@ringofasho7721]

The Rankin Bass movies are underrated. "Where there's a whip there's a way" is still one of my favorite songs

[@tom-vf1xv]

the map of khazad dum is neat, hadn't seen that before

[@telerumkins6605]

its from lord of the rings online game, quested there many a time :)

[@bryanrhodes369]

Lord of the Rings Online did a fantastic job with the Moria regions

[@ChrisVillagomez]

When I was younger I didn't know that the company that Balin (who I didn't know who he truly was until I read the Hobbit in middle school) led also had Oin and Ori, Oin being killed by the Watcher and Ori dying in the Chamber of Mazarbûl with that book in his hands. It makes me sad to know that that super cool dwarf died to a poisoned goblin arrow deep within Moria, with his remaining friends trapped inside Moria already

[@Kessira26A]

The maps of Moria gave me such a flashback moment to playing LOTRO and wandering Moria and the experience of playing as one of those doomed dwarves. One of my favorite quests from the area.

[@iyaoyas2969]

Around 15 years ago, you would probably find me at the AH in the 21st Hall waiting for others in my Kin to log-in.

[@mattwilkinson5858]

Absolutely loved how they portrayed the mines of Moria in the movie. Easily my favourite area

[@IDPhotoMan]

“It is grim reading’, he said. ‘I fear their end was cruel. Listen! We cannot get out. We cannot get out. They have taken the Bridge and second hall.... Then there are four lines smeared so that I can only read went 5 days ago. The last lines run: the pool is up to the wall at Westgate. The Watcher in the Water took Óin. We cannot get out. The end comes, and then drums, drums in the deep. I wonder what that means. The last thing written is in a trailing scrawl of elf-letters: they are coming. There is nothing more.’ Gandalf paused and stood in silent thought.”

[@MasterTSayge]

Ori is the reason why we have the most epic line from Gandalf. "THEY ARE COMING!" 😮

[@williamoliveira-cz5dj]

The lotro maps and images gives it a nice touch. The lake out of moria reflects the stars, don't remember if all the lakes do it in the game

[@rikk319]

It was unique to Mirrormere.

[@fjccommish]

Such a nice video without rotten background music. Terrific!

[@MudPig6110]

It is comforting to think he had 5 years of peace as the Lord of Moria. The feeling of monumental victory on behalf of his kind and the re-establishment of their true homeland. If that’s not worth dying for then nothing is. Rest easy my Lord, the hammers can now be heard once more in the deep, the rock bows before the sons of Durin in the halls of Moria. You were right to re-claim your heritage and your kin have finished the great task. The Men of the West salute you.

[@Batkoku]

Balin was my favorite of the Dwarves.

[@williampoole1742]

Jackson should have done a limited run series on this exact thing right after finishing The Hobbit, this is an extremely compelling and relatable story.

[@Altherot]

It could tie The Hobbit with Lotr closer together through the theme of Durin's Bane, Mordor orcs going in to help goblins of Moria, Balin searching for Thror's ring.. and while Lotr was a "high fantasy" and The Hobbit more of a traditional family adventure, this could be a fantasy horror, as they venture into deeps of Moria with goblins attacking from the darkness.

[@mikesmovingimages]

After f-ing up The Hobbit, we are all better off that Jackson stopped. Not everything needs to be turned into a movie.

[@mvmlego1212]

I, too, have been killed by monsters in an attempt to reclaim my ancestral homeland.

[@AnarexicSumo]

​@@mikesmovingimages He didnt F up The Hobbit at all. Thst was Guillermo Del Torro and WB throwing him into the project 2/3 into its life and not resetting the timeline.

[@mikesmovingimages]

@@AnarexicSumo He could have said no. Could have taken an Allan Smithee credit. Could have shortened those movies by 50 minutes each - easily. His name is on them. He owns them.

[@mvmlego1212]

Thank you. When watching the movies I'd wondered why Balin was buried in an ornate tomb, since I assumed that he died in a last stand with the rest of the party.

[@InternetzVideoz]

I have always seen Balin's attempt for Moria as a reflection of the dwarf rings. The rings promoted pride and greed. This becomes rooted in their culture. So only naturally he feels the need to retake Moria.

[@billmiller4972]

The dwarves are my favorite people in Tolkien's work.

[@loduke3905]

Love this topic! Moria and the Balrog are one of my favorite topics

[@justrusty]

Maybe I've been under a misconception but I was always under the impression that no one actually knew that Durin's Bane was a Balrog (at least up until Gandalf battled it), though they knew it was something bad and powerful. Did Dain actually know it was a Balrog when he saw it, or did he just know it was something dangerous?

[@EndOfSmallSanctuary97]

You're right, I don't believe they knew it was a Balrog. I mean, not even Gandalf knew a Balrog lurked in Moria until he saw it, and it's hard to believe that it would be common knowledge among one of the Free Peoples that a Balrog existed there and yet Gandalf wouldn't know about it.

[@istari0]

A balrog hadn't been seen in Middle-Earth since the end of the 1st Age over 5000 years before Durin's Bane drove the Dwarves from Khazad-dûm. Only some of the remaining Elves in Middle-Earth would have seen one. Dain probably recognized the creature as matching the description from Dwarven records made after the fall of Khazad-dûm but he wouldn't have known what it truly was.

[@rikk319]

@@istari0 Legolas knew what it was when he saw it, and he wasn't old enough to have lived in the 1st Age, so he must have been told about balrogs growing up. Interesting for a Moriquendi.

[@harveywallbanger3123]

One has to assume when you encounter a giant flaming boss monster in an ancient complex that it's supernaturally powerful.

[@johnparish6566]

Thank you. I didn't know much of anything about Balin's time at Moria.

[@Sarge80]

You forgot one of the reasons why Balin went to Moria, Balin was still convinced that Thror's great ring was still somewhere at Moria, it is not untill later that Gandalf reveals to the dwarves at the council of Elrond that Thror had given it to his son Thrain who was captured by the enemy hence that ring was lost. But this was at the time of Balin's expedition not known too the dwarves.

[@nicolasrea2185]

Best video to ever exist in the history of the entire known and observable universe in existence and imagination. Praise Robert

[@warrenpowers108]

I will never understand why they insisted on making Thorin and Kili just typical short handsome men. Even being a huge Tolkien nerd I had to constantly remind myself that they were supposed to be Dwarves lol

[@c.w.simpsonproductions1230]

Balin’s expedition to Moria has a similar feel to Theon Greyjoy’s capture of Winterfell. Capturing their objective was one thing, but holding it was another matter entirely.

[@evilsharkey8954]

Even with thousands of orcs, creatures literally created to inflict pain and suffering, he enjoyed a gentler fate than Theon.😬 Nobody would trust an orc, but an evil man can wear a good face.

[@billyponsonby]

My 10yr old daughter and I absolutely love Andy Serkis’ The Hobbit on Audible.

[@legionarybooks13]

He also narrated Lord of the Rings on Audible. It's equally spectacular. 😊

[@bwrochat7564]

@@legionarybooks13 absolutely. So true! Such a great voice actor (great physical/live actor too). He does such a great job of capturing and reanimating the voices of all of the actors and characters from the films, with his own additions and attributes. Given the additional character depth of the books, I prefer the emotional fluctuations he adds to Sam, Mary and Pippin in The Twin Towers and Return of the King

[@BodywiseMustard]

Serkis's * You only omit the s for plurals.

[@klearmynd]

I love that you use LOTRO in your images :)

[@johnosborne1873]

This was SO cool - the additional context is awesome!

[@scottjackson1420]

Of course, the strange thing was that the dwarves would have thought that they could reclaim Khazad-dum in the first place. As I recall it, after the final battle in the war with the orcs, Dain himself warned that Durin's Bane was still inside. And their own folk were in such small numbers that even a bunch of orcs with no special help were able to kill them all. Why wasn't Balin's expedition considered a suicide mission?

[@isleiff]

Ah, the images from Lord of the Rings Online bring back AWESOME memories 😊

[@billedefoudre]

This amazing video raises a new question for me : what or who was behind the orcs attack on balin ? Because they seemed to be insanely numerous and organised, for just a raiding party wandering around and trying to pay a visit to their moria depths' friends. Why so much orcs came invading back ? Also : why and how did the goblins and orcs from the depths of moria stood so still for such a long time, while balin was claiming it back, after the first skirmishes ? Did the Balrog just asked them to do a big big long nap until a Touque comes disturbing their collective sleep ? And last one : why did Gimli truly believed balin took back moria, if he just hadn't heard of him since decades ? Did balin sent back some emissaries, before the orcs came invading back, to spread the word his expedition was "successful" ?

[@laura-ann.0726]

There is a question that has bothered me for decades, since I first read LOTR in the 1970's: Balin and his companions re-took Khazad-dum in TA 2989, and for the next 5 years, messages were sent to Erebor, until Balin's death on November 10, TA 2994. The orcs, who vastly outnumbered the dwarves, then began an all-out assault, and within a few days, the colony was completely wiped out; there were no survivors to transmit news of the disaster back to Erebor. The next reference to Balin's attempt to re-take Moria, comes on October 25, TA 3018, at the Council of Elrond, when Gloin reports that Dain II has sent him to Elrond to try and get any news of Balin that Elrond might have. At least 23 years passed since the last messages from Balin reached Erebor, before Gloin sets out to make the journey to Imladris. Now here's the question: Why didn't Dain send someone to check up on Balin sooner? Like within 2 or 3 years after the messages stopped? I've never read anywhere, of an explanation for this seeming lack of concern on the part of Dain. Maybe this question is a plot element that JRRT never thought of, or didn't think important enough to write about. Or is there some answer to this question in his letters and notes that I've not read?

[@bullgravy6906]

I always take it as time is quite a bit different for them. For us not hearing anything from a relative for 23 years is a literal lifetime; for them 23 years is like finally having a toddler. No clue what was in Balin’s writings but he could’ve said all is well and then things got quiet for a bit.

[@CreationBrosZone-km5be]

Dain already suspected and did not want to risk anymore precious Dwarven lives...perhaps.

[@laura-ann.0726]

@@CreationBrosZone-km5be - There is an implied plot element in JRRT's portrayal of life in Middle-Earth in the late third age, that bears on my original question. I've never thought about this very much until now, but it's possibly part of the explanation for why Dain waited 23 years to follow up on the question of why reporting from Balin's colony ceased: All through the final 150 years of the Third Age, which encompasses the lifetimes of Thorin, Aragorn, Theoden, and Bilbo, and events such as the Quest for Erebor, The Hunt for Gollum, the expulsion of the Necromancer (Sauron) from Dol Guldur, and the final meetings of The White Council before the betrayal of Saruman, it's evident from JRRT's stories that wide area travel in Middle Earth is difficult for everyone except the Elves. Only four major population centers of Men are told of: a couple of established cities like Minas Tirith, Esgaroth, and Edoras, and a few others are mentioned in passing, like Dol Amroth, the City of the Corsairs in Umbar, and Pelargir. Further East and South in Rhun and Harad there must be cities of Men of some kind, but the stories never take us into those lands. Outside of the cities, there must be farmland for at least a few dozens of miles around them, but overall, it seems like 90% of all the land area of North-western Middle Earth is completely unpopulated and road-less wilderness, and crossing these areas is only undertaken at great need. It took Boromir 110 days to travel from Minas Tirith to Imladris, and once he passed out of the Westfold into Dunland, and thus left the lands controlled by an ally (Rohan), any Men he encountered were all too likely to be hostile. To the Hobbits of the Shire, travel even to Bree, which is right next door, seems to be quite rare, and Bilbo, Frodo, Merry, and Pippin, may very well have been the first Hobbits to visit the Grey Havens since at least the Fall of Arnor and the abandonment of Fornost, many centuries before the birth of Bilbo. The Exiled Noldor, the Wandering Companies such as the group led by Gildor Inglorion, seem to be able to travel anywhere they like with little difficulty, and we know that small numbers of Dwarves migrate between their colonies in Eriador and Rhovanion, but for Men, travel seems far more difficult. Maybe that's part of why Dain waited so long to send Gloin and Gimli to Rivendell: it was just too difficult and dangerous to travel anywhere in that era in Middle Earth.

[@CreationBrosZone-km5be]

@@laura-ann.0726 Well said. I'm filing this reply as a reminder that North Western Middle Earth, at the end of the Third Age, is indeed a perilous realm (great for adventuring in). Dain knew in his heart.

[@MrNicoJac]

It's also quite plausible that there was great debate for many years to send another force to go check. But that the idea was each time struck down, because they must've realized that if they weren't getting messages anymore, it was probably a trap. Nevertheless, a tiny minority might have gotten increasingly vocal over time. And eventually a compromise was struck, to go ask Elrond. It would've offered a nice balance between not setting foot in a trap, while also getting rid of those most vocal. Either they got answers, or else at least rid of a nuisance, so to say... Additionally, perhaps individual messengers _were_ sent earlier, but they never returned (or the Goblins let them return without ever showing themselves - unlikely though). So there's a lot of room for internal politics to have played out. (and it wouldn't surprise me if Eru kept Gimli etc in place until the time was right - it's no mere coincidence that everyone showed up simultaneously, after all)

[@PedroG78]

I can't believe so many years after reading the books and many years after watching the films, I'm still learning new things and having new topics to think about. Thank you

[@etienneporras7252]

Tolkein has said that there is a strong "jewishness" about the dwarves, them being both native and foreigner simultaneously in their own land. The Dwarf Language is heavily inspired by Hebrew. The undying hope that the dwarves feel and their incessant hope that they might reclaim their home certainly rings true of the Jewish Hope for a reclaimed Holy Land, and perhaps Tolkein's eventual decision to indeed return Khazad-Dûm to the Dwarves is itself a hope of the return of the Hebrews to their own true home.

[@mvader7188]

Wondering the wilderness. I can see it.

[@joshsemo4214]

Also.... Jews love their gold. 😂

[@TalynDerre]

Next year, in Khazad Dum.

[@etienneporras7252]

@@TalynDerre ❤️❤️❤️

[@pegpelvispete]

Funny you should say that. The physical depictions of Balin and some of the other dwarves I find faintly discomforting

[@ApplePi3.]

I quite like hearing about the orcs strategizing and being smart about their actions. Not attacking when the dwarves first entered, making the damn etc Not just mindless monsters.

[@RuSosan]

Indeed, that's what people often underestimate about Orcs and even more so Goblins: _Their devious intellect for wicked works._ Then again it is easy to see why. Before the Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War-games there wasn't much to see from their perspective. Maybe something in LOTRO but I've never played it. In the books, movies, games etc. they're always the chasing and attacking "enemy force" and that easily colors people's view of them and their capabilities. They used ambushes and there were scant few instances of orcs/goblins talking or others talking about them but mostly they're encountered as the army of Sauron, brutishly executing the orders of their "betters" and smarters.

[@02JAN1970]

Delightful and insightful as always. Thank you, it is much appreciated.

[@midimusicforever]

Balin was the best of the 13 dwarves in the Hobbit!

[@LaserRanger15]

The artwork in your vids is fantastic. Nice job closing the loop of this story.

[@matthewchard4360]

This might be the best video you have ever done. Brilliant. I love the character of Balin, and have always wanted a summary of what happened to him after the events of The Hobbit.

[@delurkor]

While not Balin, a line I like from the Fellowship: at the Rivendale meeting, Bilbo says he will take the ring to Mordor, Boromir starts to laugh but stops when he sees the looks given by the others, "Only Gloin smiled, but his came from old memories."

[@EndOfSmallSanctuary97]

I like moments like that, showing the subtle connections back to The Hobbit.

[@moodyowlproductions4287]

Errrrr...dude...it's frodo who says that...not Bilbo..unless is this from the books or the film?

[@delurkor]

@@moodyowlproductions4287 Yes, the books not Jackson's version. Bilbo was not at the council in the movie.

[@mikesmovingimages]

@@moodyowlproductions4287 The films are a perversion. The books are the real story.

[@virgnthermostat5928]

Been waiting for this video for awhile.

[@MST3Killa]

I've never heard a real answer, and the text doesn't have one except for Gimli stating that he is sure the sound is that of a hammer, but I've always thought the tapping sound in Fellowship might have been the spirit of Balin warning them.

[@mortanos8938]

You are a gifted narrator, and your presentation is very professional. I thought at first that you are none other than Martin Freeman because your voices sound highly similar. Either way, it was very immersing listening to you. Good job.

[@chriscooper654]

A tragedy, but I agree: it laid the foundation of later triumph.

[@monsierlemaire8282]

Always love your documentaries. :)

[@Quasisaur]

Orcs are tactical geniuses. The fact that they are capable of using(AND building) difficult machinery such as river dams(like they did here and in Isengard that Ants later destroyed) really surprises me. Also they are using whatever building materials they got and unqualified work labor but they succed each time - just wow.

[@josephbingham1255]

Good research. Puts many of the pieces together.

[@MrGforce52]

Great video with lots of detail. Balin put himself in a position to be trapped. Should secured the east gate inside and the area outside, not stray too far from it, and have larger forces of dwarves come to reinforce, support, build fortifications, and a secret escape route, perhaps a secret passage around the east gate to slip behind any orcs attacking them?

[@seth1371]

Man I’m so glad to see your stuff again. For some reason KZbin wasn’t notifying me of your videos.

[@Phoenix7786]

Never forget the Dwarfs were a total G when it came to their friends. When Sauron tempted them with several of their rings for info regarding Bilbo, they promptly shot the finger. That was another reason they came to Rivendell, to warn Bilbo.

[@solaire-jd8jd]

Nice summary - very enjoyable and helpful. Kudos.

[@Wyxill]

I appreciate the use of Lord of the Rings Online Moria map

[@chuchulainn9275]

"The world is grey, the Mountains old. The forge's fire is ashen cold. No harp is rung no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's Halls. The Shadow lies upon his tomb, in Moria, in Kazzad'Dum. But still the the sunken stars appear in dark and windless Mirrormere. There lies his crown in water deep, 'till Durin wakes again from sleep."

[@tom-vf1xv]

The fellowship of the ring picture with Boromir's eyes closed was kinda funny, but also symbolic i suppose.

[@Intreductor]

About the council in Rivendell; are most of the characters present random and nameless or were they important companions to the representatives? Did Tolkien write anything about them?

[@rikk319]

Tolkien never explained just how many people were present at the Council of Elrond. Those who spoke were all named--aside from Elrond, Glorfindel, Erestor, and the members of the Fellowship, there was Gloin and some other dwarves from Erebor, and Galdor was a representative from the Grey Havens. Boromir seems to be the only human from Gondor, and there was no mention of humans from Breeland, Dale, Rohan, or the Beornings.

[@masamune2984]

Literally the only part of this video I didn’t like was being forced to watch both Jimmy Fallon and then “Pirates: Sea of Conflict” ads before it. That’s on KZbin. The video itself was amazing, as always 🙂

[@patrickb1303]

Well Tolkien succeeded Balin is one of ky favorite characters

[@oscarstainton]

Balin is one of my favourite Dwarves after Gimli, by his supportive manner and resilience throughout the Quest for Erebor. While inspired by Thorin's successful (if fatal) reclamation of Erebor, it is a true shame that the expedition to Moria ended in calamity. Simply put, a Balrog is a much less easily goaded or thwarted beast than a dragon.

[@siriusczech]

I am not sure, but nowhere in records about Balin´s fall in Moria is even a record of a Balrog, they were simply overloaded with orcs (and probably mountain trolls). Balrog may have been playing from behind (it is a fckin deamon equal to Sauron and Gandalf in powers and nature, so surely has a capacity for such actions), but is imho not directly involved. What amasses Balrog in FotR is probably his sense of magic, he might feel a presence of another really strong magical user and/or holy being and he probably really doesn´t like it, so he follows his minions (orcs and goblin worships him) into battle. Probably for the sole reason of crushing anyone entering "his territory", as he is there for thousands of years and it is his home. He wants to stay there and defend it. Dwarfes haven´t possesed such threat during those 5 years of occupation, nor they ever wielded a magic capable of conquering him, so he probably doesn´t care and let it be resolved "by the way", though he might mind control some orc-followers to send message and guard mirrormere and be ready for ambushes.

[@vksasdgaming9472]

Smaug was driven by greed and pride. It likes to be flattered and playing. Balrog was beast of rage and hatred. It thinks, it plans and it hates everything personally.

[@bullgravy6906]

@@siriusczechpretty good take on that. He’s just chillin in the depths then suddenly there are 2 rings of power nearby, 1 being the One Ring but the other being Gandalf’s ring of the sacred fire. And if I’m not mistaken Aragorn’s ring also possessed some magical properties as well

[@PJOZeus]

To be clear, if not for Balin and such the existing garrison may have proved too much for the fellowship when approaching the east gate anyway He did die, but he made the journey of the fellowship possible, which in turn made the reclaiming of his home possible

[@ilyakats54]

I love Balin in The Hobbit trilogy. The actor did a wonderful job.

[@JenMaxon]

Yeah, Ken Stott is great

[@GerardHammond]

Oh thanks. That explains a lot of stuff I was confused about. Excellent!

[@stonestreamentertainment]

The fact that at the end he (or whoever wrote that journal) repeats "We cannot get out." Shows his frustration and sadness.

[@slabbyfatback2272]

That was awesome!! Great job!

[@charlesminckler2978]

Having read both the Hobbit and Lotr, and done the quests in LOTRO in Moria, I never put the 2 together. I had thought the Dwarves that died had done so long ago, not so recently.

[@eKizify]

Its weird that I cant see this video in your channels videos but only when I navigate here from subscriptions

[@ssymck]

Love your work!!

[@DazednConfused0]

A nice bit of backstory that I imagine many of us only vaguely knew of. Thanks

[@39zack]

For all the bad choices that was done in the Hobbit movies, Balin was great! Loved how he was portrayed.

[@dogdog2635]

Damn Balin’s life story is really sad

[@rbloomquist69]

Great episode. Yes, these people's livelihoods should not be encroached upon

[@_BrunoSouza]

Thank you Robert.

[@Mr__Geno]

Great video and what a tragedy for Balin.

[@johntiggleman4686]

Balin is one of my favorite characters.

[@maddoghoek4286]

lol i've always thought Balin and party was shockingly stupid. robert, you make many excellent points - all *was* going well for the dwarves. but like, where'd the balrog go? LOL did he just wander off? and the WitW? how'd that conversation with dain go? "yo son, i wanna go retake moria." / "ummmmmmmmmmm the balrog though? and the watcher in the water?" / "EH." / "alright have fun then." :)

[@FVD]

Wow, I knew that Ori went to Moria but not Oin. How I wish that Gimli learned of his uncle's death in the film as well as only Balin - and even Ori too. These are the kinda 'Anthology' stories I want to see rather than the rubbish we got with The Rings of Power.

[@iletyoucallmestevesy]

If you think RoP is rubbish, as a completely new story, what makes you think that those folks would have made an adapted Tolkien story that wasn't rubbish? Perhaps better that they leave his stories alone and come up with their own stories that can be promptly ignored

[@JohnBloggart]

I’d love to see a video on what happened to Bilbo’s fortune. They make such a big deal of it in Fellowship, but then it doesn’t really seem to get resolved.

[@Mathemagical55]

Bilbo abandoned his claim to a fourteenth share of the dwarves' profits when he purloined the Arkenstone for Bard to use as a bargaining chip. Although he was later reconciled with Thorin, he never got paid, which was pretty much what Smaug predicted. Gandalf did make Bilbo take a couple of chests of gold and silver from the Trolls' hoard on his way home. When Merry asked Frodo how much of it was left, Frodo replied "None at all. Bilbo gave it all away. He told me he did not feel it was really his, as it came from robbers."

[@MrOgyny]

He never had that big of a fortune. Just the mithril vest and sting. But those are quite the fortune.

[@martinfunk4855]

Wasnt the armor more worth than the whole shire?

[@vksasdgaming9472]

​@@martinfunk4855That was Gandalf's view, but for hobbits it was not much.

[@martinfunk4855]

@@vksasdgaming9472 he makethe biggest Fortune of All. Friends and experience.

[@davidpretorius]

Loved this, thank you

[@ZzaphodD]

Yeah, the Balin expedition really need a bit of suspension of belief to make sense.

[@TheFifthIdiot]

If I'm not mistaken at the council of Elrond it is also mentioned that Balin went in search of Durin's ring of power

[@robertalba4863]

This was a great video!

[@jamesplunkett8912]

Knowing Balin from the film of the Hobbit and seeing his tomb in the Fellowship of the Ring has saddened me. Balin was a kind and loveable character in the book and films. It is hard to believe he is dead and gone in the one place he wanted to restore to all dwarves as a permanent home. His death is caused by being assassinated, taken out by an orc archer with one arrow 🏹. Truly tragic and a grim fate. 💔 RIP Balin, Son of Fundin. Lord of Moria. Durin be with you.

[@ReallyBillyBoggs]

1:13 balin got that advanced greying man i feel that pain i started greying at twenty three i got the Mr fantastic hair with the grey sides and my facial hair has greyed....i feel your pain balin...i feel your pain... *hits chest with balled up hand* respect.

[@splibmore]

Balin's favorite song is Ballin' by Mustard and Roddy Richh!

[@KlaxontheImpailr]

I just thought of something, Bali's story reminds me of the Franklin expedition. In that while they failed, they paved the way for others to finish the job.

[@rooty]

I've not reread the books since I became a fan of the Hobbit movies. For all the hate they get, they actually did an extremely admirable job of characterising all the dwarves and making them distinct from one another (thanks in great part to the performances, especially of Ken Stott). Even the most die hard Tolkien fan must admit the book did not even attempt to do this, except for one or two of the dwarves. So hearing this account again, it's very sad to realise that the dwarves who died in Moria included some of those that were close to Bilbo (and therefore the reader/viewer). It's not something I can say I really felt when reading the books.

[@ErroTheCube]

My dude was just Balin'

[@darkhighwayman1757]

I love that ya used the LOTRO map

[@Skarrz72]

Was it Ori's skeletal corpse holding that book that Gandalf finds? In Fellowship of The Ring, Gandalf does read the words from the book, "Here lies Balin", unless of course Ori and Balin died in the same room and Ori wrote that specific quote in the book.