Induction Annealer (with Cost Estimate)

A 1kW Automated Induction Annealer for annealing brass for reloading.
ZVS Schematix: www.schematix.co.nz/forum/how...
Schematix Video: • Building a 1.4kW Induc...
MGNZ Makes website: www.mgnz-makes.com/
== Timestamps ==
00:00 Introduction
03:30 Advice on winding copper tubing coils
07:59 Cycle Process
10:30 Feeder Wheel
13:23 Internal Components
20:12 Old Components
26:00 You don't need 1kW of power
27:05 Single Case Annealing Demo
29:46 Automated Annealing Speed Demo
32:05 How much did it cost?
36:30 Conclusion

[@kettioriginal]

Great Project. I really love it. Thanks for the good Video

[@romanroman1975]

Lovely and professional!!

[@user-io6je7lw5x]

Brilliant! I know I'm late to the vid here but have have to give credit where it is due. Nice work, and great video. Love to have to work on one of my ideas :)

[@DimaProk]

Man! This is the best by far any system I've seen on KZbin! Several years ago I was really trying to make this work and just like you I burned out the smaller "1000 watt" board because I didn't use cooling. I bought 1800Watt board and I replaced with smaller coil which pulls even at idle something like 500 watt so as you can imagine it heats up a LOT! I've measured something like 300-400F underneath some capacitors if you run it for several minutes straight. Now I am actually running small water pump, I don't have a radiator just a jug of water and works ok if you don't run it too long. I actually tempered hundreds of metal punches that I machine, so far it held up. I am familiar with SSR from building my own PID controller. I am familiar with stepper motors and have a bunch of free ones from laser printers I took apart. I got a couple 1000 watt switching power supplies (48v) and got even one 600 watt Toroid power supply for 5 bucks, I bought it as a metal box from recycle place to house my annealer (even though I have a few PC cases), it said CNC controller on it, so when I took it apart I noticed there was power supply I hooked it up and voila it works and it powers ZVS board. I've also made my copper coils and I don't even think you need a double coil, I've seen a single coil work, it will be easier to make it too. I've simply used PVC pipe to wind my coil, although I've tried putting water and sealing, I might try a salt next time but I do have very fine white sand too, salt is just probably easier to dissolve and flush it out. The hard part is going to be programming that controller with the display and getting someone to 3D print parts. Where did you get the software code for controller? Also got a bunch of 12v power supplies and computer fans. Got radiator too since I run my PC water cooled. You can use a coolant designed for cooling racing bikes "Rislone Hy-per Cool" sold in your local Walmart, been using that in my PC for years. Copper tube on eBay $10 bucks if you got patience to wait from China, same with fiber sleeve.

[@TechDregs]

The control board and firmware are from MGNZmakes. I tried sand, but couldn't get it out with the tight bends, so I had to move to something I knew I could flush out. The dual layer coil is to make sure I get enough inductance without wasting coil space. It just concentrates the power a little better, but you could certainly use a single layer coil... it would just be twice as tall and most of it would be unused.

[@DimaProk]

@@TechDregs Alright, coil and stuff I'll figure out, I've played around with it before. I am surprised the original build is using only 3mm tube - that's tiny! I see 5mm with 0.5mm wall on eBay. Have you tried that by any chance vs. 1mm wall tube? Also are you able to sell the 3d printed parts? I really need to buy 3D printer :( I like your hopper design. This is the hard part plus adjusting up and down, this is what kept me from getting this done a long time ago.

[@TechDregs]

I haven't used 5mm tubing with that thin of a wall. It would probably work. I don't sell any 3D printer parts, but the base hopper design is available on thingiverse. I copied the design and made adjustments. Just search for "annealer" and it'll be like the first result.

[@YERAFirearms]

Excellent annealer

[@frenchcreekvalley]

I think the Schematix guy is pretty good at what he does, too. But don't blame that original ZVS unit. i have been using them right up to 1000 watts gross for many years. And yes, I have even used that 1/8" diameter copper tubing with success for, your guessed it, annealing brass cartridge cases. Your problem really WAS that low inductance coil and and not having enough water pressure or radiator cooling capacity to cool it. I Never had any problems with the power connectors, either. That's not to say that I didn't have my own share of trouble in the beginning. But it is NOT the design of the board- it's the lousy documentation that comes with these heaters in the hands of folks without a lot of electronics in their background. All that said, I think you have done a great job and you have produced a nice looking end result too. I wish that I had your 3D printing skills.

[@TechDregs]

The lack of pressure in the coolant system was definitely an issue with the smaller tubing. I'm using a cheap PC cooling pump... it's just not stout enough for that. I still feel that those systems don't have good enough connectors for the stated power... I believe the input terminals are only 10a rated, but it's been a while since I looked at them. The coil inductance was definitely an issue, since there are only 6 caps... at higher frequency, their current handling ability drops pretty quickly, and that's what I was overheating. I actually never had any issues with the FETs. Upping the capacitor count helps a lot in spreading the current around. I actually have a new PCB I designed for my system with integrated voltage and current sensing that I need to test at some point. I moved the outputs to the center of the capacitor banks, which should help keep the current spread out evenly among them. I appreciate your comments; I actually watched several of your videos when I was working on this project. :-)

[@user-fk2pc4pj3b]

Is there anyway to get your 3D files for the case adjustment system on your annealer?

[@steveschwend3390]

Did you design the height adjustment or is there a file to 3d print it? Thank you for this video! Great job!

[@TechDregs]

I designed the whole platform assembly.

[@cf3536]

NICE! Do you have a method of centering the case in the sweet spot of your coil or do you not worry about it? In your video you're using a 30-30 which has a wide rim. Do you use a different case holder thingy for when the case is sitting in the coil if you're annealing say a narrower case such as 223 or 6mm BR?

[@TechDregs]

Good question that has a pretty cool answer: it doesn't matter. Because the case sits loose, it will automatically center itself in the magnetic field when the flux hits. You can see the case wobble @27:35 when the coil energizes. So you just have to make sure the coil is large enough to accommodate the largest cases you plan on annealing, and that's it.

[@OE8ACT]

Hello! I'm just finishing my 3d prints of a similar version and I would like to ask if you could give more details about the coil you have been made for your induction annealer. What diameter and how many turns did you choose?

[@TechDregs]

IIRC it's around 8.5 turns, dual layer coil. So, like 4 turns inner and 4 turns outer coil. I think the ID is something like 3/4" or 20mm. Covered with the fiberglass sleeve, and then just wrap it as tight as you can get it (so don't worry about coil spacing beyond having the sleeve on). I'm thinking about doing a video soon on making a coil. It's tricky with the 3/16 tubing.

[@OE8ACT]

@@TechDregs thank you for your reply

[@rayyoder6440]

7 months later and I'm still finding this video very useful. Did you decide if you were going g to make a video to cover the software? This is the aide I'm least experienced in.

[@TechDregs]

I haven't worked on it in a while. I actually designed and ordered a few PCBs for my ZVS board thinking I would update and refine the system, and maybe even redo the software entirely, as I want some different features, but I never got around to it.

[@rayyoder6440]

@Tech Dregs thanks for reply, I haven't found anyone that covers the software side of the project.

[@sledgehammer7998]

I noticed that with all of the annealer's out there using the 1kw zvs coil that if you run it for about 5 or more minutes the coil over heats and you have to shut the machine down for a while. Using the coil that you built do you think that you can run about 1k pieces of brass and still keep going? I don't run that much but I am curious. When running the annealer's the first thing that you notice is that the annealing mark that should go under the shoulder starts to shrink gradually and the brass is not annealed anymore. You then have to shut the machine down and wait a while for it to cool then start all over again. Also I have experienced that if you add about 50 .308 cases in the case feeder the motor jams because of the weight, you are then relegated to single feeding the brass. I am looking for alternate ways to get my mgnz annealer working properly. Do you have the files available for the feeder wheel that you are using?

[@TechDregs]

My system is robust because of the ZVS board and the coil combined. I can't say if it will run 1k pieces, but I haven't noticed any issues with overheating. The problem with the ones you get off of Amazon is that those ZVS circuits lie about their power handling capabilities. The inductors can't handle the current, and neither can the capacitor banks. Further, you need to use a 3/16 or larger work coil to get proper water flow through it. The ZVS board I made was based on a design that can legitimately handle 1400 watts (if you properly cool it). I've rant over 100 cases in a row without overheating. Unfortunately, I no longer share STLs. I used to put stuff on thingiverse, but people ended up ripping the designs and selling them on ebay and etsy, so I no longer publish things. I would make sure your feeder wheel rotates freely though... sand it smooth so it doesn't drag at all. It shouldn't bind from that little weight (50 cases isn't much). Maybe use a stronger stepper also?

[@sledgehammer7998]

@@TechDregs Appreciate the response, I was just looking into ordering the parts the build the zvs but its hard to find any parts these days. I thought about using a stronger stepper but I don't think it will fit in the same slot as the closed loop stepper. One of my issues is that the motor rubs at times on the sides of the feeder case, I sanded down as much as I could but not enough. When I saw your wheel I could see the difference in the gap between the wheel and the case, at times when the wheel spins it doesn't pick up any of the cases. Its all very frustrating to me now. I really need to build a better zvs but the parts are impossible to find.

[@TechDregs]

@@sledgehammer7998 What parts are you having difficulty finding?

[@marcoguerra1722]

Looks great, did you amend the arduino code to go over 20amps?

[@TechDregs]

Yeah, since I was using a different current meter, I had to redo that part of the code anyway, so I just upped the limit to fit my system.

[@Jack_Tenderloin]

Are you willing to share any of the design files? I’m particularly interested in the case feed and drop mechanism. I have an induction annealer

[@georgewilson60]

Great video and thorough explanation of your setup, I'm planning on starting a build on one of these setups with compiling a build list. Would have a link for what current sensor you feel is the proper one? Also Looking through all the print files I can't for the life of me figure out how the case feeder wheel is connected to the stepper motor?

[@TechDregs]

Stay tuned. I have another video in process that will be relevant for anyone building their own. Might have a short little series going...

[@georgewilson60]

@@TechDregs I look forward to watching it!

[@TechDregs]

You know, I think I missed your question about the current sensor. I'm currently using the DFRobot Gravity 50a sensor. The problem with the little amazon sensors isn't the sensor chip, it's usually the inputs being rated for only like 10A and the pcb traces being kind of dinky. So, they will say "30A rated!", and the IC is, but the pcb design isn't up to it. The DFRobot is overkill, but I wanted to make sure it was never a problem.

[@georgewilson60]

@@TechDregs I've finally got my unit mostly complete currently with a 30A current sensor as I'm still waiting for the 50A sensor you recommended. The question I have because I'm having a very difficult time figuring out how and what part of the code I'm going to need to change, would you be willing to share the part of the mgnz code that you changed for the 50A current sensor? Any guidance from someone smarter at coding is greatly appreciated!! Thank you

[@TechDregs]

Well, it's been a while, but IIRC you need to change the current_sensor_scale value based on your sensors mV/A specification. The ACS712-20A for example is 100mV/A, so you take 5V (total range)/0.1 (100mV) and get a value of 50. The 30A version is 66mV/A, so 5V/0.066=75. Look up that value for your new sensor, and adjust the sensor scale in the code. I actually think I redid more than that, but it's been too long ago, and I don't know where I stashed that code offhand.

[@josiascloete]

hi very nice project, perhaps you can use n hall effect switch to know your feeder's position

[@TechDregs]

Yeah, I've got some things in mind for a v2 of this project, but just haven't been motivated enough to work on it. Adding something to locate the feeder wheel, some safety interlocks, and positive verification of brass location are on the list. As well as hopefully figuring out how to make it cheaper or easier to build.

[@michaelkrueger7297]

Thank you so much for sharing all of this. Do you have any resources on how to configure two PSUs with one power cord for the whole system?

[@TechDregs]

If you mean one low voltage for the controls and then a larger one for the ZVS power? I've got mine wired through two switches. Mains comes into one large switch, then out of that switch I wire in the low voltage and a second switch that controls the high power PSU. I do that so I have have power to test everything without having the higher power side energized.

[@michaelkrueger7297]

@@TechDregsthank you for the quick response. Is your computer case made of steel or aluminum? I am considering case options for my induction heating system and am concerned that steel might be a problem.

[@TechDregs]

I'm actually not sure. I bought it used, and don't even know the model off the top of my head. If you're coil is outside the case, I don't think you'd have any problems. The strongest area of flux is inside the coil, rather than outside.

[@frenchcreekvalley]

Did you ever try using your larger coil on the "Amazon" 1000 watt unit with all the cooling that you are presently using? I think the reason it got so hot was that you were running at too high a frequency with the tiny coil that you showed with it. I have run those 1000 watt heaters continuously at 48 volts and 20 plus amps for 15 minutes and more with no ill effects, once I realized that you can't run those boards at frequencies over about 100 kHz. The problem is that the Mosfets can't switch completely on and off that fast, so they spend too much time in linear mode.

[@TechDregs]

I didn't. Once I built the new one, I didn't mess with the little circuit any more. It was actually the binding straps and the capacitors that were overheating, rather than the Mosfets. I think the caps couldn't handle the currents at that fequency, so yes, I think you're probably right that the little coil caused them to resonate too fast. The coil they come with is much larger, and IIRC resonates around 50khz?

[@frenchcreekvalley]

@@TechDregs thanks. Good observations. The stock circuit will with the stock coil runs at about 87 kHz.

[@krzysztofs5754]

Hello. On orginal 1.4kW Induction Heater ther was used 470nF capacitor. Why you used in yours 330nF?

[@TechDregs]

Because it was easy to find cheap induction type capacitors in that value here. It changes the resonant frequency of the circuit, but I can tune that with the coil also.

[@patriotkieler9750]

When bending Stanless steel exhause we fille with sand very similar technique.

[@sledgehammer7998]

Which mosfets did you go with in your build? The mosfets listed in the build list is impossible to find.

[@TechDregs]

It's pretty tough to find mosfets period. Even the ones I used are OOS. For this, I used IXFQ140N20X3, but Digikey has one as of now, and Mouser has none. Looks like IXFH180N20X3 are in stock at Mouser, and IRF200P222 at Digikey might be acceptable replacements.

[@sledgehammer7998]

@@TechDregs Thanks. I have been working on this machine for a while and am a bit tired of the stumbling blocks. I am at the point of going with one of those zvs boards from amazon that's about 1800W to see if that will work. I will see if I can order some of those mosfets and give it a shot.

[@TechDregs]

​@@sledgehammer7998 Yeah, I hear you. I've actually been looking into selling ZVS boards based on this design. I have prototypes in front of me right now, just waiting on components to arrive to assemble and test. But IDK that anyone is gonna want to pay what they cost... the Amazon stuff is way, way cheaper.

[@sledgehammer7998]

@@TechDregs One thing I will say is make sure and test those components when you get them. I had ordered 10 mosfets from ebay and I assumed they were good. Once I assembled two boards and the circuit didn't work I was beginning to wonder. That's when I messaged you on here and asked about the mosfets. Once I got home and tested the mosfets I only had one out of ten working, that's when I placed an order to mouser for the pieces you mentioned.

[@TechDregs]

@@sledgehammer7998 Yup. The only thing I'm using from a non-verified vendor are the inductors and the caps, just because the Chinese stuff on Amazon is literally 1/3 the price of Digikey/Mouser, and I've used them before with solid results.

[@midoelbert]

You have to add another fan on the connections between capacitors and copper tube. I think by time it will get hot and melt the soldering

[@TechDregs]

It actually doesn't heat those points that much. I have quite large, heavy connections there, capable of handling the current without much difficulty. Those lay in ground lugs provide a pretty decent amount of contact with the tubing.

[@zeesterrene]

Could you please tell, what kind of toroids, wire diameter and number of turns you have used in your combination with the 330uF capacitors.

[@TechDregs]

Do you mean the inductors in the ZVS or the main work coil itself?

[@zeesterrene]

@@TechDregs I would like to built an identical ZVS as yours for annealing brass cases, therfor a partlist with values of the electronical components you have been using is very welcome.

[@midoelbert]

I think the noise is coming from electromagnetic field that produced by the heater Induction which can melt iron by Eddy currents. The evidence for that you can charge your phone wireless in this field or turn on neon light lamp in air near that field. Thanks for the inspiring vedio

[@TechDregs]

Yes, without a doubt the circuit is producing noise. It took me a while to figure out how it was interfering with the control circuit. The process of "what needs to be shielded better" took a bit of trial and error. Ended up, shielding didn't help because it was affecting things via the display. But, eventually, moving the wire positions solved it.

[@AppleJack76]

Cool machine and job well done. But, like you said, if you added your time and labor into the cost analysis, my educated guess, on labor, would be 10-15 times the material cost. I guess they don't call them passion (insanity) projects for nothing. 🤪

[@TiaanAlberts]

I have a question and some comments. Question: What is the current draw when you have no case in the coil? Comments: I also built one. I however use the chinese 1kW ZVS without issue. I run it at 48V 20A. So no idea why yours would fail. Also, if the chinese ones do fail, it is usually the FETs that fail which can easily be replaced for a lot cheaper than building your own. I use copper tubing with 3.16mm (think it is 1/8 inch) outside diameter and 2mm (think about 1/16 inch) inside diameter. I have no problem keeping the coil cool. The water flow is definitely lower than your design but there is flow none the less and the coil stays cool. You don't seem to have this problem, but for anyone else reading this, by reducing the frequency at which your ZVS board oscillates, you can reduce the load on the power supply. So if your power supply is tripping or running close to the max limit, reducing the frequency (by adding more turns to the coil), reduces the required current at the expense of slightly longer anneal time (a couple of 100's of milliseconds). Two things you might consider changing in your design: 1. The reservoir and pump should be the highest item in you cooling loop. This way, any air trapped in the cooling loop will propegate to the reservoir. 2. Turn your radiator around so the in and outlets are at the top. Same reason as 1. The way you have it now, air can get trapped inside the radiator and reduce you cooling loop efficiency

[@TechDregs]

Sure, it can pull 15-16A when empty. It's a pretty low resistance circuit. I've been idly working on some ways to improve the coupling further, as I'm pretty sure I could get similar results with about half as much power (and thus much less expense) with some design changes. Once I get that nailed down, I'm going to update it, as that would allow much cheaper inductors, fewer capacitors, smaller board, cheaper PSU, etc. The small ZVS is still functional. It didn't fail. It was overheating after maybe 5-6 cases in a row. The capacitors get hot quickly. The connection points are also pretty small for that power level, and mine were discolored from heat. This circuit is of course much more expensive than those, but I have also ran it for 100 cases in a row without significant heating. As far as your coil, I'm glad it's staying cool. Mine was boiling the coolant inside. For the pump/reservoir, there are a few issues. Most importantly, I didn't want any water above the ZVS, and second, there just wasn't room for that in this layout. Similar story with the rad. Turning it over would mean that any leak would be over the ZVS. For air bubbles, when I got the machine built, I just ran the pump with the unit in a few orientations where it was at the high point until the air got the the reservoir. Only took a few minutes. Cooling efficiency isn't a huge issue with this design either, because there's so much water flow. Nothing in this current system heats much at all.

[@TiaanAlberts]

@@TechDregs Thanks for the reply. I can't wait to see your update and what you did to improve the coupling. I would like to do the same on mine. Thanks for sharing, your annealer series is a lot more informative than most of the other annealer videos on YT. I've watched most of your annealer series videos multiple times.

[@zeesterrene]

I would like to built an identical ZVS as yours for annealing brass cases, therfor a partlist with values of the electronical components you have been using is very welcome.

[@TechDregs]

See the link to the Schematix video in the description. I am using his circuit for this. If you change the capacitor bank values, you'll also need to modify the work coil. That you will have to calculate for your own system. I've made a two part series outlining how you can do that. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kKnEqKZso7yreKs kzbin.info/www/bejne/aH3Xm4qdo7ergMk

[@rickhalverson2252]

You can build this without any stepper motors or drivers. You need a $5 electronic circuit plus a small DC gear motor, a solenoid and proximity switch. Look into 'cycle delay timer on-off module'. You want the one that you can control the time amount it is off and on. It will have a NO and NC relay. Potentiometers.. remove from the board and put in a better location utilizing volume control pots. Swap the on-board capacitor with a smaller one. It allows you finer control, milliseconds to longer. Stepper motor control is the wrong system for that way too expensive and overly complicated for zero return.

[@TechDregs]

Well, first, I'm actually using a servo controller, which is far more expensive still. :-D Second, steppers are actually quite inexpensive if you don't go overboard like I did. You can get a NEMA 17 and a a4988 driver for $15 off of Amazon. The control board I'm using already has the sockets for the stepper driver on it; so you just plug it in and it works. Using a DC motor wouldn't really save any money.

[@nonetheless01]

Parts list ?

[@TechDregs]

Look at the cost breakdown ~32 minutes in. You'll see a list of the parts there.

[@patriotkieler9750]

Raspberry PI might be able to run all of this.

[@TechDregs]

Possibly, but Rpi's are not real time systems. Likely, that wouldn't really matter, but then there's the second problem. Rpi's are not currently obtainable at MSRP. Microcontrollers are much cheaper, and more than sufficient to run these systems.

[@patriotkieler9750]

This is awesome but there has to be a cheaper way to build this.

[@TechDregs]

The biggest areas for cost savings are in the power supply and ZVS board. You can get lower quality PSUs (rather than a meanwell) for maybe half the cost. They will probably work, but you're also taking some risk on their reliability. The Amazon zvs boards are way cheaper than what I built, but again, for less quality and they will be more likely to have overheating issues. The next area to save money is on the relay. Knock-off relays are very cheap, and again, the trade-off is you might end up with something substandard that doesn't meet it's stated ratings. You could try to find a power supply that has built in on/off communications features, but those tend to be Meanwell class units that aren't cheap, but that would remove the relay entirely. I'd say a person could easily save $150 off of my system by doing these things, and probably end up with a good machine. I just spent more to eliminate some risks on counterfeit or low quality items.

[@DLN-ix6vf]

so let's see about $1k all in and you have to build it yourself which requires expensive testing equipment or buy one finished , certified by govt. agency complete for $1.4k

[@TechDregs]

Well, no. The cost for this was around $850 as it sits, and I'm not sure what you mean by requiring extensive testing equipment. I'm guessing you're referring to an Amp for comparison? An Amp is currently $1600, and then you'd need to spend another $500 for the Amp Mate to get it to auto feed itself. So, approximately 2.5x as much. DIY certainly isn't for everyone (if you're worried about safety, then doing your own electronics is definitely a no-go). The AMP is a way easier solution, but there's no need to exaggerate things.

[@DLN-ix6vf]

@@TechDregs you did all that for $850.00 with your bare hands and no gauges or testing tools ?

[@TechDregs]

Yes. What do you think you would test that would require expensive gauges or testing tools? I guess you'd want a multimeter to verify connections and check voltages, but I think the one I used cost $25 years ago when I bought it. I guess you could also count the Temilaq to check case temps? Not exactly expensive. As far as bare hands, I guess now you're talking tools in general rather than test equipment? I used a 3d printer for the platform and automated hopper, but I don't consider that to be extravagant these days. It's handy to be able to make your own cables, so you'd want a JST/dupont connector kit and tool... that's ~$30. I made my own ZVS circuit and soldered the current sensor, so that required a soldering iron. After that, I think I used a drill, screwdrivers, and some allen wrenches.

[@DLN-ix6vf]

@@TechDregs This is not getting anyone anywhere. Why don't you sit down with a young technical eng. just out of school and design a simple, reliable, inexpensive annealing machine assembled in the USofA with Chinese parts to keep the costs down. AMP is to cumbersome, expensive and complicated to work and shipping is a killer. Don't worry about money just perfect the idea. Donald Trump will finance you as he is a big promoter for US jobs. ps: I'm Canadian.

[@TechDregs]

It got me somewhere. I have an automated annealing machine that works. It's gotten other people somewhere, because I'm not the only one that has made one. So, yeah... it is getting some people somewhere. As for producing them for others, I have already told you that it's not worth it for me. If you like the idea, then have at it.

[@Rico11b]

Antifreeze liquid would work much better than water. Plus you will be able to see any leaks quicker and easier.

[@TechDregs]

Antifreeze (ethylene/propylene glycol) is a worse coolant than water. It's usefulness is just extending the temperature range of water so that it doesn't freeze or boil as easily. Since this system won't experience temperature extremes, that's not an issue, so water is best. The water does have some PC coolant additives in it though. That's mostly for the antimicrobial effects... you don't want mold growing in the system. You can get that in colors usually though, and that indeed would make spotting leaks easier.