IndyCar Owner Speaks Out Against Hybrid

/ davidland
Team owner and IndyCar driver Ed Carpenter spoke out against IndyCar's adoption of the hybrid after the Iowa weekend. I have some thoughts.
#IndyCar #Hybrid #McLaren
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[@UnsounderGnome]

Yeah having the hybrid and the aeroscreen on the car is great, but adding these things onto a car that wasn't designed for either is the true problem. They have to get a new car, one designed with an aeroscreen and hybrid in mind.

[@october62]

Minus the screen. It’s the halo that is important in my opinion.

[@jaimemontano2674]

​@@october62 halo isn't fully functional for the quantity of oval crash debris.

[@Wily_Ambition6819]

The aerocscreen absolutely has to stay. When the new car comes, perhaps they can build one that's a bit smaller and is built as part of the cars body shell.

[@jamesbowman7963]

The aeroscreen has saved lives and injuries... Yes and a hybrid that adds to the racing.

[@davidgray1515]

Aeroscreen HAS TO GO

[@NavyBlueSTL]

The hybrid system makes the gap between the big boys and the smaller teams even wider. I love EC. I hope he wins Indy before he retires.

[@MotownGuitarJoe]

Have fun having a racing series with no engine manufacturers.... Apparently people have already forgotten that Honda publicly forced IndyCar's hand last year. They were very close to bailing from IndyCar over it.

[@Grumpy_Stiltskin]

Anyone watch the Indy-Nxt race? It had lots of action and a on track pass for the lead, what a concept.

[@black_sheep2520]

I'll take slower top speeds, faster acceleration, smaller spec car and smaller spec engine.

[@joeyager8479]

This is where a spec series works. You have drivers at different skill levels learning the craft of racing. Running equal cars shows which drivers have the talent to move on. But at the very top with the very best it just shows why starts, restarts and pit strategy is so important because passing is so difficult once they get strung out.

[@seth_5394]

"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should." - Dr. Ian Malcolm

[@mrbungle3310]

wise words

[@black_sheep2520]

I'm concerned about the growing gap between F1 and Indycar lap times, and an electric motor provides instant torque. It's unacceptable that a Super Formula car accelerates faster than an Indycar. I don't want to see Indycar fade into irrelevance.

[@flyingphoenix113]

​@@black_sheep2520, easiest answer to that is to add more boost. At over 2l, Indycar motors could make 1,000+HP if the organizers would let them.

[@griffinfaulkner3514]

​@@black_sheep2520To be fair, Super Formula cars have been batshit insane for years, and like Indycar used to be even faster than they are now. I do agree that Indycars need to be at least on par with Formula 2 cars in terms of overall lap times, but faster in a straight line, trading corner speed for sheer brute force.

[@Jjlo-x4m]

I was at the Iowa races and would have liked to see the leaders have the confidence to pass the back markers instead of being afraid to move out of the grove. Also, David thanks for taking the time to speak with me in the media center on Saturday.

[@johnbarker5009]

I was there too. It was a really strange look when a clear zone developed on the track but it wasn't in front of the leader. Everyone backed up behind the back markers, which is a problem. I've been at the vast majority of all the races ever held at Iowa, all series included. A few drivers worked really hard to build a low line off 4, but it never developed sufficiently to use it.

[@HB-C_U_L8R]

It is needed to maintain the current engine suppliers and there is a 0% change of getting a 3rd without a hybrid system.

[@JonDoe-ln6nl]

Bingo!

[@MFitz12]

I'm with Ed. The hybrid doesn't seem to do anything other than give Indycar bragging rights to say they are a hybrid series. But they aren't really. A few seconds of electric motor boost per lap is not a "hybrid" drivetrain. It's a very expensive marketing band-aid. The result - Mid Ohio was dull. Iowa 1 was terrible and Iowa 2 was dull.

[@motocrossedful]

you are absolutely correct. A true hybrid would accomplish the following: Maintain the same horsepower while lowering the main engine horsepower and, increasing the fuel mileage.

[@ozmaile7938]

If all goes well it will be upgrades to 3x what is now instead of 50-60 hp 150 hp. while even then the charge vs deeply on short ovals might never be much on a long tract it might provide more action Mid Ohio IS ALWAYS Dull and Iowa was great until this ill conceive repaving

[@Grumpy_Stiltskin]

​@@ozmaile7938Don't know how there going do that without adding even more weight.

[@MFitz12]

@@ozmaile7938 - It was not just the re-pave. These cars literally have one, maybe 1.5 grooves on any oval according to Ed.

[@jamesbowman7963]

I agree with everything you wrote I'm just not sure the Hybrid had much to do with the poor racing in either case.

[@meirowt]

As a European fan of Indycar who also follows F1 all I can say is the on track action in F1 has been far better than it has been in Indycar over the last 3 races. I don’t understand bolting a hybrid system onto a chassis that’s 12 years old. Why not design a chassis that accounts for the hybrid and use the new chassis and hybrid system to launch a new era of the sport rather than what seems like a panicked rush job to stay relevant.

[@aztronomy7457]

3 good races of the past 4 seasons is not a valid sample size to say that f1 is on the right track. The Red Bull drama and Newey leaving left them reeling, which meant other teams could catch up, thereby making the racing exciting. F1 has a good season once every 5 years.

[@meirowt]

@@aztronomy7457 absolutely but I just witnessed a race where a driver that started in 23rd won the race on an oval without doing a single on track overtake. If the racing is going to continue to suffer because of the hybrid it will turn people away from the sport. I started watching Indycar because the on track action was always superior to F1 but if it’s just going to turn into a pure strategy war like F1 in the 2000’s then Indycar has truly lost the best aspect of its sport.

[@aztronomy7457]

@@meirowt I’m not a fan of the hybrids but I think you’re overreacting a bit.

[@AlistairMaxwell77]

the teams rejected a new chassis due to cost and opted to modify the existing dw12 for both the aero screen and hybrid .

[@duckrutt]

IndyCar needs to get its engine formula figured out before they can built a new car and they've been dragging their feet on that for almost as long.

[@samzilla1050]

Indycar is honesty stuck in the past just look at the Imsa with the GTP class. The fact that indycar still doesn't have a new chassis/car and is adding weight with the hybrid is just silly. And if the rumors are true 2027 new cars? That's just unacceptable, Roger should send sell the series

[@ricosn3662]

what are those rumors

[@bigdcart]

So the perennial whiner of the team owners first claims "he gets it" then goes on to prove he doesn't get it. > The hybrid system had nothing to do with the track getting Nascarized. > The hybrid system had nothing to do with Firestone's dithering tire compound choices. > The hybrid system had nothing to do with the last-minute downforce changes. The hybrid system is five years in the making, so the weight change was hardly a surprise. But thanks for the heads up on Milwaukee and Nashville Ed. I'll make some calls and try to get my tickets refunded. I'm sure Roger, Frye and the others at Indycar are satisfied with your public complaining.

[@bobbyblair8478]

Love the Diecast on your desk David!! Those new prototypes are so badass looking!!

[@wildewaffle9790]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Indycar needs to look at what IMSA/WEC did with the GTP/LMDh rules and mimic the spirit of those rules. Manufacturers said they wanted this or that, but at the end of the day they all snubbed Indycar and showed up in droves for sportscars.

[@meeraram4776]

I dont think hybrid is the problem, the Indycar approach to hybrid is actually very creative you get to store the energy in a big capacitor which no other racing is doing. And so charge up and deploying of the charge is much faster with Capacitors and by the way increasing the capacitor value increases the amount of power it can store

[@noahgray5229]

The only issue is that being done that way adds 0 strategy to racing, you charge through a few turns, dump it on the straight and rinse and repeat. It's just not changing any strategy or the racing beaide heavier cars and being harder to follow@@meeraram4776

[@Rearmostbean]

​@@meeraram4776True unless the package restraints limit the development. They have said 60hp is not the limit; it is definitely time to push that limit, but another 30 hp isn't going to make much difference Seems like this is a bad situation with no clear out. So we have to ask if the hybrid will be worth it

[@maxbrower2139]

"Mimic the spirit of those rules", as in IndyCar becoming an endurance, closed-wheel sportscar prototype series? 😂You realize you are comparing apples and oranges, right? And guess who went down the route, Formula 1, whose cars got frankensteined in 2014 into open-wheel LMP1 prototypes.. ridiculously expensive, heavy, muffled and with bad racing, caused by the weight/downforce/dimensions/cost cascade effects (only augmented by artificial DRS overtakes and phony reality TV drama). Open-wheel singler-seaters are due to their very nature the least road-relevant classes in racing (which is unfortunately all the rage with marketing departments these days), therefore IndyCar has to walk a very thin tightrope to keep everyone happy.

[@wildewaffle9790]

@@maxbrower2139 you took that and threw it so far past the left field marker I don’t even know how you got there. I was talking only about the rules regarding the power trains….

[@asterixdogmatix1073]

The point is that engine manufacturers have targets set by their shareholders. 'Sustainability' is one of them. Do you seriously think the shareholders want the engine manufacturer investing $ into a sport that doesn't meet that? Indycar's problem is trying to stick a hybrid into a 12 year old chassis. There would have been more real world relevance to engine manufacturers in a totally new chassis and engine. Look at WEC/IMSA for what can be achieved.

[@maxbrower2139]

There is zero road relevance putting a hybrid engine in an open-wheel single-seater racecar that only races in sprints, and not endurance races, it's all a marketing ploy at the end of the day by and for the major car manufacturers who are controlling the sport with their marketing budgets. IndyCar did the minimally invasive procedure by introducing a relatively simple KERS system as F1 did in 2009 that doesn't affect the sound or racing at all or at least minimally, in opposite of a "real" elaborate hybrid concept. Of course small teams as Ed Carpenter's aren't happy about the extra cost, but hopefully they will be helped out in some form or the other by those up in the food chain. And you widely overvalue the importance of shareholders' will in (especially publicly traded) car companies' strategic decisions (besides wanting to see costs being as low as possible and revenues as high as possible, as with any investment), the concerted effort in "sustainability" and "electrification" [windowdressing] comes from policymakers and marketing departments that are running said corporations, who also want to market to affluent urbanites instead of the traditional middle-class, more rural racing audience of yesteryear.

[@FobiddenMexican]

There were a number of things going against IndyCar this weekend with the partial repave and inappropriate tire choice. But the additional weight along with the mediocre power boost are definitely making it worse though so I agree on that. Hopefully Toronto somehow proves us all wrong but I’m doubtful

[@meeraram4776]

Right the additional weight with 60 horse power is probably not much, but no big deal they can make the capacitors biggers for next season so they can 100 Horse power for boost. When everything is new people are not so certain about the future, this is all good, they need to keep tweaking and make it better. This is why the mid season intro is good, so they could increase the specs to higher power for next season

[@nicksterl.2133]

@@meeraram4776"look at me I'm so progressive"... The issue is in additional weight, not lack of boost. No amount of tweaking is going to remove the issue.

[@janremongalura5713]

All that extra weight is behind the car, the problem is that they are using old chassis. If or when they build a new chassis, they would obviously move the weight shift to the middle.

[@ryanfraley7113]

I don’t think anyone expected the first two hybrid races to be great; but it is selfish of Carpenter to want the other engine supplier out of the series so he has an engine from the last manufacturer standing. The reason that Iowa sucked was simply due to the repave and how atrocious it was.

[@Mortimuss]

Re pave, re pave, re pave, re pave, re pave. It had nothing to do with hybrid. You’re just flat out wrong

[@waltersobchak8080]

It's not even a real hybrid system. GTP is a real hybrid system. This is just a friggin boost button. Might be cooler to market it that way like it's a video game.

[@Skyvernius]

I think if Indycar was gonna go Hybrid they should have waited and had been designing a new car/chassis this whole time to introduce at the beginning of next year.

[@maxbrower2139]

There's no money to do more than one thing at once, unfortunately.

[@codileger4876]

Kind of reminds me of when NASCAR introduced the COT in the middle of a season. The winner of the 1st race said they sucked. They were out of the sport in less than 5 years

[@T.N.D.88]

It was Kyle Busch after winning at Bristol.

[@youfillmylifewithjello6661]

And nascar has been on a decline for YEARS.

[@troygillum5]

but the last 3 years of it was good racing

[@stevenkilsdonk2046]

Kyle Busch? Hendrick? The 5 car? All things that are still active in Cup today?

[@codileger4876]

@@stevenkilsdonk2046 The COT car. Gen 6 introduced in 2013 after 5.5 seasons of the Gen 5 (COT). Not Kyle Busch lol

[@munafo13]

Indycar and NASCAR neck and neck in incompetence…

[@thinkandrepent3175]

My thoughts exactly are they in a race to dissappear first?

[@bobbyblair8478]

Respect to Ed Carpenter for speaking out telling it how it is. Major respect gained for Ed Carpenter.

[@SwineBrothers]

You mean whining?

[@markvincent5992]

Major Whiner.

[@cwnapier67]

This car was not designed for the Hybrid, Aeroscreen or anything else that has changed, they need a new chassis with less weight and better weight distribution.

[@asterixdogmatix1073]

100%

[@maxbrower2139]

David Land forgot to mention that the cars were made about 50 lbs lighter before the start of the season to accommodate for the extra 105 lbs of the KERS system (lighter Aeroscreen, more magnesium parts instead of aluminum), the net weight penalty is therefore vastly lower.

[@andrewvillegas7747]

There is literally no need for hybrid systems. Totally pointless

[@don7680]

You're completely wrong. The Mfgs want it, and they pay the bills.

[@fredjames9867]

It's basically push to pass but a lot more expensive

[@T.N.D.88]

​@@don7680All these manufacturers even Honda are Woke and g@y.

[@chevyon37s]

Hybrids in the real world are great. My company car is a hybrid and I keep it running all day long. And I really like it, runs great, the electric assist really helps the performance and I can stay cool in the AC and my car shuts on and turns back on as needed. It’ll stay running for 34+ hours and go 300+ miles on 12 gallons of gas… In a race vehicle, it’s a great to have a system that can recapture energy and let the driver pick when they want to use it. Not to mention racing has long been a proving ground for real world street car technology.

[@neblolthecarnerd]

If you want more than 1 engine manufacturer then yes there's a point to it

[@micodyerski1621]

Dallara can make a new Haas F1 car in a few weeks! Why so long for IndyCar. Let teams build unique cars off a common safety cell+ engine.

[@AlistairMaxwell77]

the teams didnt want the cost of a new chassis and rejected it multiple times the last 10 years , including a new chassis for 2024 designed for the hybrid and aeroscreen

[@itsoscargil]

It all comes down to money. There's IndyCar teams that are barely scraping by every year. This isn't a series where every team has millions to spend on development. A new chassis is long overdue! Allegedly 2027 something will happen 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@markvincent5992]

Boy you really do wanna spend your money needlessly. You are under a false impression. In F1 supposedly each team builds their own chassis. I don’t think so, as the smaller teams use chassis from other teams and the proof is in the nose piece. If you look closely you will find that there are maybe 3 different chassis in F1 and the rest are either older models or dead on copies of other teams cars

[@ZontarDow]

​@@markvincent59922022 had all 10 teams start with distinctly different cars before they quickly began convergence on what worked.

[@itsoscargil]

@markvincent5992 in whichever way you wanna spin it, IndyCar teams have a tiny little fraction of money that one F1 team has 😅

[@fallenshallrise]

2nd video in a row trying to make a hybrid system have something to do with a resurface of an entire circuit. I'm an F1 fan and even I know that Indycar pulled 30 lbs out of the cars at the beginning of the season and the hybrid system adds 42 lbs. Money is the real factor here. Some cheap team owners are going to come out against any change that costs money which is why y'all have had the same car for years.

[@fallenshallrise]

BTW the fuel tank holds 116 lbs of fuel.

[@maxbrower2139]

They actually reduced weight by almost 50 lbs before the season (the Aeroscreen got lighter on top of those 30 lbs from bellhousing and gearbox), the entire KERS system weighs 105 lbs, though. You are totally correct though, even though I wouldn't call the small teams as Carpenter Racing "cheap", they are just scraping by financially, some frustration over an alleged million dollar bill per car is understandable, which is why I hope that the series or manufacturers will at least partially subsidize it for them.

[@jeffreyolenick4132]

The fact that herta took pole not even being able to deploy the hybrid is pretty damning for what it adds imo

[@maxbrower2139]

It does shave off a few tenths of a second on road and street courses (where there are plenty of energy recuperation zones), that it would be near net zero on ovals or even net negative on Superspeedways was to be expected.

[@michaelgawel5823]

The piss poor repave speaks for itself it's not a commentary on the hybrid!

[@srb2834]

Agreed. Nascar has figured out to a tee how to destroy a good IndyCar race, and I don’t see it as a coincidence of incompetence. Texas, Gateway, now Iowa, reconfig & repave of Phoenix… NASCAR cannot compete when there’s a direct comparison as to which series puts on a better race at a track, they know exactly what they’re doing

[@ptl2007]

@@srb2834 I don't get why IndyCar continues to allow NASCAR to dictate what modifications is done to oval tracks (Indianapolis being the only exception) many of those oval tracks were specifically for IndyCar, but now those tracks seem to bow down to NASCAR.

[@srb2834]

@@ptl2007 unfortunately, nascar owns Iowa as of a few years ago, so they can do whatever they want there. Funny how the track never had an issue like this until just after NASCAR’s took over. Most of the ovals in the country are owned by either SMI [Tx, NH, Charlotte, Atlanta etc…] or ISC, and nascar bought ISC in 2019, including tracks like Phoenix, Homestead, Chicagoland, Kansas, Richmond, & Watkins Glenn. Gateway, Pocono, & the Milwaukee Mile are the only single entity owned tracks left I believe. *& Indy by Roger of course. TLDR: there’s a reason Indycar racing on ovals has eroded over the years, and a large % of the reasons don’t include “poor single file racing”

[@ptl2007]

@@srb2834 Sad that IndyCar has become a second class series for NASCAR, especially at oval tracks

[@nikeestar]

Opposition to the hybrid is basically saying you want Honda gone, and no new OEMs.

[@chrisguardiano6143]

And if those two things happen, Indycar will be in the same position CART was in before it went bankrupt.

[@warphammer]

And if, as Ed put it, 'buying hybrid systems' kills the teams? We need them way way more than we need multiple, or any OEMs. I'm also not particularly a fan of their blackmail for this boat anchor.

[@1320crusier]

Lol you would support all sorts of garbage for the OEMs

[@thegreattreon0177]

This is a good time to come up with plans to raise hp to around 900 and introduce 2 more chassis manufacturers and at least one more engine manufacturer because the series has basically become an open wheel version of NASCAR. This spec car bs that American racing series has become has not worked out the past 2 years. Let these teams build or buy their own different cars and take the restrictions off the motors and madate a spending cap so costs won't get crazy. Spec cars are for F2, Indy NXT, and other novice series not the top series like Indycar and NASCAR Cup. I wish these series would get their heads out their asses and recognize how this parody racing isn't working and if the sponsors and tv networks don't like it then tell them to shove it because the fans should come first and not the suits who only care about the money being deposited into their accounts

[@Clyde-2055]

Parody? Like in, “IndyCar is a PARODY of the now-defunct IROC Series” ?

[@JollyRogerRacing000]

Indycar needs an all new car plain and simple. A new engine and chassis made from the ground up and not modified from an older one.

[@maxbrower2139]

Not financially feasible immediately..

[@JollyRogerRacing000]

@@maxbrower2139 They just spent more money to make the car worse than it was before. They would’ve been better off not doing anything to that car. Also debuting the hybrid mid season was really stupid too.

[@toucan8256]

What about just removing the hybrid hardware for oval weekends? Oval setup is already a completely different car setup than road/street courses anyway. It doesn't seem like the actual hardware would be too hard to swap in and out for a weekend. The regen and deployment seems pretty pointless on ovals anyway. I do think it can become worthwhile and impactful on road courses if they ever increase the energy output per lap to a meaningful amount.

[@PharrellSalford]

That's what I was thinking. But I think it will probably be difficult.

[@maxbrower2139]

The more flat-out you drive, the less energy recuperation opportunities there are, the less the system can carry its own weight penalty. Would be curious to know if Honda (who pushed for this the hardest) would be okay with IndyCar not using the KERS system during the one big oval race of the year, even if they wouldn't be able to market their engines as "hybrid" in that case. I remember McLaren, who had the lightest and best KERS system in 2009's F1, taking it out in Silverstone because the circuit had too few energy recuperation zones to make it a net time gain, so there is historical precedent to this.

[@jonathanparker2939]

How long is it going to take for fans to realize that hybrids are not for the fans? They are to attract OEM engine manufacturers by introducing more market-relevant features.

[@jstoli996c4s]

Which is very important for any major racing series.

[@thomaswoods8578]

Instead of drilling on hybrid at IOWA?? Why was the track resurfaced making it essentially a single lane track through the corners? Listen to Pato's interviews. Does Nascar own the track at Iowa ?

[@warphammer]

They do, since 2013. Let Indycar take the risk on market research then smother them with a Cup date, seems to be their MO now. See also: Gateway, though that isn't a NASCAR owned track.

[@IndyTalk]

What we saw this past race weekend was a repeat of Texas in 2018. High tire deg, minimal passing. I still think it’s too early to call it quits with the hybrid. Here’s my solution: I know it would be kind of a “well that was short” moment but go back to the past engine and finish it for the rest of the season, have Indycar make a new tire compound suited for the hybrid while said season is going on and then boom. Higher hopes for oval racing and road next season.

[@craigyirush3492]

I thought the reason they couldn’t run two lanes was that the track was only partially repaired?

[@Rearmostbean]

The thing i don't get is the constraints. The limit the hybrid output to 320k joules. Why? The whole point is to use it, if the braking can recover 80% of the energy as other marketing has stated, and it takes equal time to charge as recharge, they should use as much as possible This whole thing seems messed up

[@MaunoKoivistoOfficial]

If someone thinks the racing was bad because of the hybrid system, they need to look into it some more

[@gwcrispi]

Ed thinks it. Should he look into some more?

[@SladesShitboxGarage]

I HIGHLY doubt you have more knowledge than a team owner/driver.

[@DarkVoid718]

You gotta be doing hard drugs to claim you have more knowledge on this subject over a guy who actually owns and races these cars on a regular basis.

[@janremongalura5713]

Why put the hybrid mid season?

[@srb2834]

I wonder what the hybrid racing would’ve looked like on the old surface tho? Even if it would’ve given them fits still, if there was fall off and multiple lanes, it may have masked hybrid issues better. How many tracks is this now that have completely destroyed great indycar racing by placating to the nascar mafia? … it’s “bad business” for nascar to have another racing series that’s faster & produces more exciting racing than them @ tracks they race at… it seems they’ve figured out the template to nuke Indycar’s abilities to do that on comparable tracks now unfortunately :(

[@uhclem50]

Sounds like IndyCar didn't plan this change very well. They should have introduced it in an all new package. There is nothing inherently wrong with a hybrid.

[@johnthefalcon2903]

So the issue is the rear of the cars is too heavy, not the hybrids per say.

[@taichanie]

People often put weight in the rear to get better traction in snow for rwd cars.

[@PickleNick139]

This is literally a proof of concept and development season. This needs an * on it.😂

[@1320crusier]

I knew one of you people would claim that to defend the failure

[@maiasdad]

Winning a Formula One World Championship did not prevent Honda from leaving (before backtracking a year or two later). Let that sink in

[@maxbrower2139]

Well, only after having saved face after the "GP2 engine" disaster with McLaren, which probably was more important than anything else at that point to them.

[@marcelomc781]

Since I know they dont care about the fans and wont bring back the V8 I will ask even more, bring the old F1 V10 lol

[@joegugg4129]

Grosjean once said he would prefer the KERS System from 2010 introduced to Indycar

[@TGL_STUDIOS]

Some ideas for the upcoming oval races... - have 2 tire compounds for more deg & strategy options - more boost if possible from the hybrid (basically add push to pass) - more downforce could help but could also make dirty air worse

[@jonathanparker2939]

It’s been two races….be patient, and evaluate it at the end of the season.

[@thomasconley3429]

How about if you test it before the season starts... or even test it period?

[@jonathanparker2939]

@@thomasconley3429 They did and they have….for more than a year.

[@356rah]

12 races into the season and there have been 7 different winners. Two different winners over the weekend. Not sure what the problem is maybe see how the rest of season goes.

[@brentasmith]

100 percent agree with Ed. Don't give a whit for hybrids unless it makes it better on the racetrack. If the series made more decisions to please fans and be entertaining rather than theoretically please manufacturers maybe they'd have enough eyeballs to get those manufacturers anyway.

[@Michael-pi8ps]

Fans don’t pay the bills.

[@markvincent5992]

Frankly I don’t think the racing has been all that bad. A great deal of the time, there are places to pass going unused because nobody tries anything new. The cars are still safe and they do protect the driver quite well, so I would say the new car will have the latest hybrid system and they can try to drop the weight but I don’t see how they’d lose 200- 300 pounds without weakening the structure

[@lucascop1593]

Thanks, DL, for your honest comments. Love IndyCar. Love your content. Keep it up.

[@danarose2677]

I was as to curious why they didn't get with Super Formula or IMSA LMDh and design a common standard for both. I might be the only one that thinks this way, but if you had an engine formula that was already used in another series, it would be a he11 of a lot easier to get new manufactures in the mix.

[@danielhenderson8316]

Because Super Formula doesn't have to build a car to survive 240mph crashes.

[@TurboPumperX]

It’ll be interesting to see how Milwaukee plays out.

[@johnthefalcon2903]

2025 compromise: Road / street courses use hybrids, ovals don't use the hybrids.

[@fredjames9867]

That would just cost to much to operate

[@grahamcracker8833]

I think this is where F1 and Sportscars succeed with the hybrids, the competition. When teams can either make their own hybrid or car to work with it, the racing can be great. Indycar forcing all the teams to use it without any other changes does make it suffer when teams cant control anything else on the car. They are restricted to what they can do with the chassis.

[@markvincent5992]

I have peeked at F1 a bit and I am unimpressed with the results. The only time a pass occurs is when someone pits. The rest of the time it’s a fast parade with no more , and probably less actual racing than Indycar. Plus there are only two, maybe three teams that can win; but Indycar has at least 8 drivers or more who can win every race.

[@markvincent5992]

Btw they hardly ever speak about the hybrid, but they rave on about the DRS.

[@janremongalura5713]

V10 or gtfo.

[@maxbrower2139]

Even the WEC/ACO had to restrict the engineering freedoms under the new Hypercar class after expenditures for the manufacturers got too big with the LMP1 regulations, and Toyota being the only one who didn't exit. Allowing free reign for engineers in IndyCar would bankrupt the teams (and by extension the series) in a hurry, there is good reason why the regulations are as strict as they are. Hopefully the new KERS system will ensure that Honda, as the 2nd engine manufacturer, will continue to provide for at least a little bit of tech competition in the series, since they forced this change the hardest and already threatened to leave entirely.

[@Bebrun13]

I have been at many Indy 500s where the leader had no chance to defend. Why can't they put an aero package on all the cars like that. May be adjust push to pass for more power? Maybe do both? I don't know the Indy cars that well. Just some ideas. But yes the 2024 races are boring. Too bad. I love Indy racing since my first race at Milwaukee in 1990.

[@fredjames9867]

Hybrid has been in UK British touring car for 3 years and the sport is going broke because of costs . Just gaslighting a agenda

[@144Creek]

Mid-season introduction was a huge problem. I like having this engine, but it will take some time to iron out the problems. I remember those different wings that Chevy and Honda made with their "body kit" before that got fixed. Problems will happen, give Indycar some time to correct with driver input. I also agree that the aging DW12 needs to be updated.

[@edmontontangobar4991]

I'd like to know what Rick Mears thinks. He's always a voice of rationality.

[@johnthefalcon2903]

I know the plan was too be conservative with the hybrid. But could giving the drivers increased usage of the hybrids (more power) off set some of the weight issues in the short term?

[@cnchess]

I agree with Ed. This PR stunt is costing the teams millions of dollars and has resulted in worse race action. I would permit the teams to use it or remove it. The reduction in weight with the magnesium bell housing ang the transmission case and without capacitors and drive units. They would lose 60 hp but would get nearly 200 pounds weight reduction that Will Power recommended.

[@darknessesdarknesses2492]

"I keeps it REAL!!" - Ed Carpenter.

[@adambannon91]

honest question: If you add 100 lbs, would that not require more off throttle time? All I hear Nascar drivers complaining about is they need more off throttle time so they can have more of an impact on their result (as opposed to track position and dirty air). Why has that extra weight made passing so much harder for Indycar? I still think it was 70/30 track pave to hybrid at Iowa that made it so bad, but just my opinion.

[@maxbrower2139]

The car weight was reduced by about 50 lbs before the season (lighter Aeroscreen, magnesium instead of aluminum parts), to accommodate for the weight penalty, which also sits very low to the ground. I highly doubt that the weight of the new KERS system has an actual impact on cars being able to pass or not, other factors were at play here.

[@michaelsoper3610]

Don't know where you were going with that on David, but adding 100 lbs. to your street car aids traction in the snow. Not as common in the mostly front-wheel drive era, but standard traction enhancement for rear-wheel drive cars and trucks.

[@Cupcardriver]

Spoken like someone who’s never been on track at race pace with 5 engineers trying to achieve balance.

[@michaelsoper3610]

@@Cupcardriver Spoken like someone who's never pulled a hill in slick conditions. David's mention of the 100 lbs. was very specifically directed at street cars in winter conditions. Or are you the only one on the planet using 5 engineers to get your Camry across town?

[@I_Evo]

Yes, I was the youngster who had to sit in the trunk of the bosses BMW so he could get out of the parking lot one evening.

[@maxbrower2139]

Besides that David forgot to mention that they removed about 50 lbs of weight before the start of the season, and that the extra weight sits fairly low to the ground.

[@MatthewLittle]

The series needs a new chassis built for the hybrid but the problem is (a) who builds it (Dallara only? an open contract w/set specs for the car? etc.) and (b) the cost. Until they figure those things out.... *shrugs*

[@AlistairMaxwell77]

its been decided its only dallara , they have factory and workers in indiana , massive government subsidies to do it . if someone else comes in costs go up and dallara probably leave , their operation is only viable with all the indycar field and the tax payers money coming with it. .

[@MatthewLittle]

@@AlistairMaxwell77 How would costs up w/multiple Mfgs.? As I said in another comment, lay out the specs for the next-gen Indycar, specify the min-max cost for it, then see who comes in. Its' pretty much the process the former Grand-Am sportscar series used for their Daytona Prototypes and it worked; you had multiple engines and multiple chassis'. Indycar could do the same thing if they weren't so beholden to Boeing--ohh, I meant, Dallara. (I get my 1000lb gorillas mixed up at times.)

[@AlistairMaxwell77]

@@MatthewLittle Back in 2010 IndyCar negotiated heavily discounted cars in return for exclusive rights for single chassis and large government subsidies to build them in Indiana .

[@maxbrower2139]

@@AlistairMaxwell77 Dallara is also the sole supplier of NASCAR chassis now though, wouldn't that be able to keep the Indiana plant at least half-way busy in case IndyCar chose some other manufacturer?

[@MrBilliam29]

Maybe it's just me, but I really think the fuel economy running at Iowa was a contributor to the boring show. We may very well have had the exact same lack of action just at a faster pace if we took the fuel saving out of the picture. Having said that, we *absolutely* were destined to get what we got with the fuel economy running plus the hybrid's effects added together.

[@josephblommel1888]

What about having a V8 with a car modified from the f1 car designs from around 2009 to 2010, spec chassis

[@marcelomc781]

Would be great and cheaper but they dont Care about the fans.

[@meeraram4776]

And so thats how change happens. I dont understand why there are some small group of Indycar fraternity that doesnt want any change to its racing. The name of the game in racing is change, change is the only constant and this small group of people want to keep everything constant. This has already resulted in a 12 year old chassis, and every little change is added to the chassis that change much and therefore it can only result in a bad product. Now you have 12 year old chassis, new aero screen, and the tires were changed not knowing the right compounds to use for the new heavier packaged and then they take the downforce away and the Iowa track get repaved (only partially) and when you add hybrid to it, they are trying to make hybrid to be the culprit for all the obsolete hardware they have been running for 12 years. How is Indycar going to progress, do they want to be obsolete and be resorted to a antique series or do they want to progress and get new car manufacturers and upgrade to new chassis and add new technologies. This is what happens when things turn spec, people dont want to change and keep what they have as is and dont want to spend and eventually this thing will die as a product. I guess this is how socialism would look like, can you imagine racing going by the way of socialism. I dont understand how this constant complaining will help when all other series is progressing to futuristic technologies

[@michaeldelaney7271]

Ed Carpenter said; "I don't see the point ..." Well said!

[@bigdaddymak1439]

F1 has regretted going hybrid for years!! Why did IndyCar doing this teams don't have the funds for this crap! I know it's only 2 races but IndyCar doesn't have the funds to overcome the negatives! Great work David

[@tylerensminger]

I think there's a lot of things with F1 you can point to, though I don't entirely disagree.

[@judo_ashtray]

If they regretted hybridization they wouldn't be doubling down in 2026. What they regret is the MGU-H which has proven to be a developmental dead end with its lack of consumer application.

[@JonDoe-ln6nl]

BECAUSE THE OEMs DEMANDED HYBRIDS. GET OVER IT.

[@bigdaddymak1439]

@@JonDoe-ln6nl turn off your caps lock bud!! I don't see OEMs lining up for this crap. Chevy wanted it first and Honda made a 2.4 hybrid from scratch work and Chevy couldn't and IndyCar owned by Ilmor/Penske scrapped it and pissed Honda off now they're probably going to leave IndyCar. IndyCar doesn't have the financial system to support this. If the OEMs want this so bad why was Honda upset because they weren't getting the extra money from teams from their investment. It's all bullshit!

[@griffinfaulkner3514]

​@@bigdaddymak1439You don't see OEMs lining up for Indycar because at the end of the day, it's a niche national semi-spec open-wheel series. Where you _do_ see them lining up in droves is WEC and IMSA's top prototype categories, which on top of being hybrid also have a much more open set of regulations. Indycar's single largest issue is that it's stagnated almost completely, and many of the teams simply don't have the money to survive the dramatic shift required to bring interest back to the series.

[@FantasySportsZen]

I just got into Indycar this May. I was super impressed and basically hooked. I couldn't believe they were changing the cars mid-season. Absolutely crazy. EVs are a sham.

[@ryanfraley7113]

@@FantasySportsZen IndyCar’s hybrid isn’t battery based so it doesn’t even fit the characteristic of being a battery electric vehicle. IndyCar’s aren’t EV’s.

[@dgrblue4162]

Nascar had this same issue with the CoT, and the new car with the low Downforce. IndyCar may be stuck because they are really dependent on Honda staying happy and wanting to continue, but maybe they could have started this at the beginning of the season?

[@Mortimuss]

Im posting a lot. Im not mad im just trying to get to the point. Is oval racing dead? Then Indcar is dead. What needs to be done. Dont tell me hybrid is the problem thats idiotic. Its had absolutely no effect.

[@danielhenderson8316]

18:31 You're expectations were way overboard if you expected the hybrid to significantly change IndyCar. It's also disingenuous to blame the hybrid for the failure of the Iowa weekend when everything from the hybrid, the half ass repaving, and Firestone bringing tires that were more suited for LeMans than a short oval. You can throw even more shade at Firestone for their dangerous Indy NXT tires that were falling apart and required making a shorter race. We need more than a race at the fun for the driver Mid Ohio and the disaster left behind at Iowa, and Toronto and Gateway are going to be make or break races on if this is a hybrid problem or something else.

[@CrewGuyPJ]

start getting some books on how race cars work...then get back to me and we will discuss adding 100+# to the ass end.

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@CrewGuyPJ So adding 100 lbs to the back of the car makes the tires last for 100 laps? Did your mommy read those racing books to you suggested to me, out did you need Google Translate to get through them?

[@CrewGuyPJ]

@@danielhenderson8316 from your first comment, you talking ****! what happens to BALANCE when you drop more weight on the front or back of a car? 46 years in racing, everything from indycar to dirt cars to nascar..make it good!

[@danielhenderson8316]

@@CrewGuyPJ Projecting much? I said blaming the whole Iowa debacle on the hybrid was disingenuous when there was far more going on than just the hybrid. If you want to act like trash, I have no issue treating you like the trash you're behaving as. I'm also still wondering how the hybrid made the tires from years previous that would only last 30ish laps causing a 4 stop race while drivers still had more than enough fuel to keep going in 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023, but now because of this mystical hybrid, tires would last 90+ laps making the race only 2 stops according to your logic since you think it's just the hybrid causing problems.

[@CrewGuyPJ]

@@danielhenderson8316 Im sorry but your reading comprehension is lacking.

[@dannyparrott7393]

they should allow push to pass on ovals also

[@chevyon37s]

ED Carpenter is really making it hard to like Ed Carpenter. Ed is mad the hybrid system is costing him more money and his team is still slow. ECR has been on a down hill side the past few years.

[@davidrivera585]

I don't think OEMs want to invest in supercapacitor hybrids. I don't think spending millions on tech that won't immediately transfer to road cars is a good investment.

[@maxbrower2139]

It's short-sighted thinking like this, that brought open-wheel single-seaters into this mess to begin with (besides that novel engine concepts outside of endurance racing have no road-relevancy or intrisic purpose anyway).. they always were the least road-relevant classes ("duh"..), the economical incentive for manufacturers to invest their marketing budgets used to (and still could) be in other positive aspects ("emotionalization" of a brand [by reaching mainstream audiences with thrilling action and drivers with big personalities driving them], showcasing one's conventional engine building prowess and general operational excellence, and a platform to advertise the "normal" cars on the side).

[@davidrivera585]

@maxbrower2139 F1 is open wheel and it's doing great!! And has OEMs with spending 135 million dollars a year. The indycar hybrid program is a fraction of that and yet no one wants to spend the money. It's not small minded thinking. It's about return on the investment

[@Sp4mMe]

Weight feels always like such a simple excuse. LMDhs weight 1000kg. GT3s around 1300kg. Is the racing crap there? No.

[@cwnapier67]

The Hybrid on INDYCAR is not a real Hybrid in the sense that it does not really improve the performance or efficiency of Indycars. On other series it used for both added power and efficiency.

[@dgrblue4162]

What about other forms of hybrid, like the flywheel KERS Williams Engineering came up with. They planeed to use it in the F1cars, but ended up not for the weight, and the next season they took a customer kers.

[@stevenhill4122]

Indy is like F1 now, a two team series, except F1 is improving. But wait, F1 is getting a new car and it will probably go backwards again. 😮

[@shimi_raikkonen]

Wonder if an oval-only side-force wing on the engine cover would help?

[@ic3man]

Technically 3 races in…

[@gbnkids]

My thoughts exactly

[@IndyF1FanMarquis]

I really hope Honda is pleased with their baby. Yeah Chevy was involved too, but not entirely by choice. I said months ago that the Hybrid should've been delayed into next year, and unfortunately its looking like that should've been the case. One thing that's really become apparent in all of this is just how badly a new chassis is needed; the brass can't sugar coat it anymore. The real shame would be if Honda leaves even though they've gotten their way; I guess time will tell.

[@kevancampbell4632]

Honda doesn’t have any history in bailing on racing series when they don’t get their way initially. That doesn’t at all sound like them.

[@IndyF1FanMarquis]

@@kevancampbell4632 CART

[@ariansmovies]

@David Land it is three races in because Iowa had two separate races this past weekend. Lol

[@FindlayOsborn]

Going hybrid is INDYCAR just trying hang with the cool kids, something they don’t need to do! The product is cool and it’s disappointing they’ve gone down the hybrid path.

[@maxbrower2139]

Unfortunately the car companies call the shots, and their marketing departments just can't live without their hybrids.. at least IndyCar did the minimally invasive procedure, and only chose a compact KERS system, and not something more elaborate ("elaborate" as in even more severe weight penalty, sound being muffled and costs exploding).

[@Telecasterland]

Agreed it means nothing.

[@GregBrownsWorldORacing]

Which fans were asking, We just need a hybrid - Then this series will really be lit?

[@wolfpacva]

I dont know why they had to change anything when they had a great product and great races.

[@maxbrower2139]

They only have two engine manufacturers, and the second one threatened to leave in case of not being able to market the engines as "hybrids". That's why.

[@wolfpacva]

@@maxbrower2139 so let honda leave

[@maxbrower2139]

@@wolfpacva Well, the money they spend on the series right now would leave as well, which would certainly be a big issue at minimum for the smaller teams, and most likely for the series as a whole.

[@HorrorDox]

At first I thought having the hybrid coming in mid-season was dumb, then I thought about it. it's actually good that it came now because it will help us rough over those teething issues sooner then just waiting tell next year when it can be a full year of terribleness.

[@Mrmayhembsc]

The British Touring Car Championship took three seasons to get the hybrid rules right. I get the feeling that will occur here. However, the problem is not the hybrid. We had many fuel races, and many of the oval races have been one-line, and the street tracks have been crash fests. The road races have been hit-and-miss. The problem is that the sport needs to be less Spec. We need rules like the LMH + LMDH, and the engine rules need to be opened up. For example, allow a Ferrari to come in and make its own car and engine, or a Honda with a Lola-made car, etc.

[@jamesbowman7963]

I have gained 40lbs and it is not good...;0]. The hybrid removed would drop 130lbs from where it was last year (where it is now) after several other weight saving measures. What Ed Carpenter is saying is what I said would be the outcome 3 years ago. 60hp for 16 seconds a lap at the cost of 100 lbs even after weight was removed from other locations why is this surprising? Ruining the racing is NOT going to draw in other engine suppliers it just won't. We will be lucky to retain Honda. $90,000 for a slower heavier car with more stuff to break. You could have done more with 2 psi of boost or 500rpm. If you gave the teams and drivers the option to remove this contrivance nobody would run it because you would be faster for less investment without it. I truly wish I was wrong. I will say it again the hybrid installed using motors on the front end where you get 80% more regen, where lap times would improve significantly and it's potential to draw in new manufacturers because it is innovative not something that was already developed a decade ago would have been awesome. You could rival F1 for dimes on the dollar and the development of software to integrate two systems is something worthwhile. You couldn't do it on this chassis of course. I admire that they put it in this small of a package and that it can handle the heat fairly well. It can restart the car which is a plus probably the only meaningful one from my chair. Yet with AWD electric motors on the front you do that and also drive out of the gravel traps every time. I hope Honda doesn't pack it's bags they have been great, but the writing is on the wall. I love Indycar but these missteps have to stop. Thanks Ed Carpenter for stating the obvious the emperor is a raving nudist. Edit: I think the repave at Iowa did more actual damage to the racing than the Hybrid FWIW and I will wait a few more races to draw my final conclusion and hope I'm very much wrong. Yes and I think Colton got pole position with it not working.

[@tylerensminger]

I'll be curious if more owners have the same opinion as Ed or not. It's only been two races so I think the hybrid should be given more time but we'll see

[@hannesgroesslinger]

I don't think these last 2 events would have been any more exciting without the hybrid. Hybrid has not been the big problem here, it's just an easy scapegoat because it is one of the things that has changed. Don't get me wrong, the hybrid is a pointless addition in terms of racing. It's just there for marketing reasons and it does not make the product any better. But i don't see how it makes it worse. Mid Ohio is a very difficult track to pass on, and has produced lots of dull races over the years. Some years it's better, some years it's worse. This year was one of the worse ones, but that does not mean it's all just because of the hybrid. And Iowa had the repave that completely changed the tracks character. We won't know what a non hybrid race would have looked like. But i do know that one of the major differences to last year was a lack of tire degredation due to the less abrasive asphalt. Where last year they had to pit after 50 laps, because the tires had lost several seconds worth of grip, this year they drove some of their fastest laps at the end of a 100 lap fuel stint. This means there was no need for tire management, no room for alternate strategies, no chance to race anybody who was in a different point of the tire life. All these things used to contribute to great racing in Iowa. Now that is not the case any more, and you cant blame the hybrid for that. Taking 100 lbs of weight out of the car and reducing max power would not have made the tires wear out any quicker.

[@maxbrower2139]

Excellent comment.

[@johnberger51]

I understand where you're coming from.

[@nicksterl.2133]

How about we speak out against staying on the racing line when you're out of fuel, David? Or are you afraid to upset your moody chum?

[@Montgomery_N_Pottichen04]

What’s that supposed to mean, you’re saying hybrids save fuel?

[@tonypeden8092]

It's going to take quite a bit more than 2 races before I will even consider condemning the hybrid; there's just too many variables at play

[@GrantRustin]

This reminds me a lot of the next GEN car in NASCAR. And a lot of peoples opinions. The next car greatly hurt the on track quality of the racing passing is virtually impossible on most tracks and following closely is a death sentence because the second car has no downforce and it shoves up into the wall.

[@maxbrower2139]

This relatively small change (accommodated by having reduced car weights by about 50 lbs before the season) has nowhere near the negative effect on racing that the first iteration of the COT car had. A bad track like Iowa would have produced bad racing in any event.

[@jefferyjohnson7999]

I don't see Indycar abandoning the hybrid project. I hope a compromise can happen soon for the sake of the racing. I propose that they use the hybrid at street courses without the push to pass. Use the street courses to develop the hybrid system. I would think on those courses the starting and reversing the hybrid offers are advantageous as well as fine tuning the hybrid boost to improve passing the opportunities.