Introduction To Water III - Brewing Tools

[@royventullo841]

Thanks Tony. Water chemistry is one of the toughest areas for home brewers to wrap their heads around. Your presentations go a long way to demystify the subject matter. I continue to use these in my brewing classes.

[@TonyYates]

Thanks Roy! I'm glad you find these useful enough to share! Cheers!

[@Wild-Boar-Brewing]

This is great and greatly appreciated you going to all the effort and time producing it. It is all starting to make sense........I think. Cheers.

[@katynathanoe]

Wow Tony I can't thank you enough I'm slowly getting my head around the subject of water. Your videos have helped me immensely! Your videos are an awesome resource for the homebrew community. Happy 2018

[@TonyYates]

Thanks Nathan! That's very kind of you to say, I appreciate that. Cheers!

[@cidermeister9440]

Top effort, thank you. Looking forward to watching in full when I make some time to investigate this subject properly. Happy New Year. Cheers.

[@TonyYates]

Hoping this helps, cheers!

[@norfolkhillbilly]

Thanks for the time and effort you`ve put into these videos Tony, Cheers

[@TonyYates]

You are most welcome, Clive! Appreciate it, cheers!

[@leomurray-juers3642]

Cheers for all the effort you’ve put into this series . Going to take me a few views to get my head around it all, lol.

[@TonyYates]

Thanks Leo! Feel free to ask if you need any more help. Cheers!

[@ironhorsealpha]

Brother, these videos are great! Its finally beginning to click! Thanks for your effort!

[@TonyYates]

Thanks, I'm glad they helps. Cheers!

[@CuttersChoiceHomebrew]

Great video Tony! I’ve been using the Graham Wheelers Water Calculator on Jim’s Beer Kit forum since I started water treatment a few months ago. It’s easy for my pea size brain to understand. It would be good if it had predicted mash pH but other than that I like it. It’s taken my beer from where people would say ‘oh, that’s nice’ to ‘can I buy some’. In fact one mate is going to buy cornie kegs for me to supply him!! 😂 Your series of videos has certainly helped me understand water treatment better and I’m encouraging brewing friends to get onboard with water treatment. Anyway, thank you for putting in the time and effort making the videos so pea size brained brewers, like myself, can understand water treatment!

[@TonyYates]

Hey thanks for the info about that calculator, I had no idea it existed! Very nice that it fills in the necessary adjustments for you automatically! Very nice! Cheers!

[@rpwallace33]

Awesome brewing info and ASMR, this rules!

[@TonyYates]

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback, Cheers!

[@clarkelongbottom9021]

Just started using bru'n water , picked up a few helpful tips from that ,cheers

[@TonyYates]

Glad it helped, cheers!

[@goldgulfcoastdesignericsho8628]

this is really going to help! Thanks again. Cheers

[@TonyYates]

Nice, glad to help, Cheers!

[@gop251]

whoa, part 3 finally happened! Epic!

[@TonyYates]

Yeah, it's been a long time coming. Hope you get something out of it. Cheers!

[@gop251]

Hey tony, something else i just noticed. I havent messed with MpH at all. But was that calculator really telling you to add 4.5 mL to get your mash ph to 5.3? Isn't that insanely high? I mean bru'n water was like 1.2. Maybe I misunderstood. Was just curious

[@TonyYates]

Yes, that does seems very high, but remember that the grains are adding buffers to the mash (increasing the alkalinity) and thereby making it harder to change the pH. It wouldn't need so much for the sparge water, as the water's alkalinity is known to be low. Thats why on the sparge tab, it only specified less than 1 ml of Lactic acid to drop the pH from 6.8 to 5.5 - of a greater amount of water. But yes, it does seem quite high. I haven't tested these values on an actual brew day, but I will say that I never add more than 1 ml at a time unless it's a re-brew. Hope this helps!

[@gop251]

yeah. makes sense. I was just curious. Because the sparge amounts are pretty even between bru'n water and MpH as well as the mash ph being only .01 off. But the amount of acid in the mash required to get there is 10x more than the amount in bru'n. And same data for both calculators and they can't both be right. .4 mL vs 5mL. Doesn't really matter for me since I use bru'n water. Was just playing around with MpH and noticed this and figured I'd mention this. But regardless, thanks for the vids. I do enjoy them. Have a good one!

[@TonyYates]

Yeah, we agree, and I totally get where you are coming from. I appreciate the comments and dialog about it. Its what this community is all about. Cheers!

[@harleybrew8058]

Thanks for taking to time to make the video, 17

[@TonyYates]

Thanks, it's an interesting topic to get into. Cheers!

[@83eroastery96]

Great videos and info. Unless I missed it somewhere, what is the suggested TDS measurement.

[@TonyYates]

Hi there. Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) was not mentioned explicitly because it's the total concentration of dissolved substances in water, including all of the ions discussed (Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, Sulfate, Chloride and Bicarbonate) plus others. While there were a couple spreadsheets that would accept Nitrite, Nitrate, Potassium, Fluoride and Iron, they are not the most important ions when brewing beer with normal drinking water (not including wells - these should be tested). Cheers!

[@douwehouvast7814]

Thank you very much for the in-depth review of brewing calculators. One of the things I miss in the calculators and that can be a pittfall is that for the electric-brewers the sparge-water comes from the HLT. I fill the HLT with 40 Liter of my base water and I use depending on the recipe, 21 Liter sparge-water from the HLT. The salt additions and the acids must be recalculated from 21 to 40 Liters. (well, I learned from my mistakes).

[@TonyYates]

Yes, I know you're pain! We share a not so most common configuration and the calculators have to try and cover all scenarios in more generic terms. Before I knew my system, I would use the BrunWater Sparge Acidification to tab to manually know what to use to drop my 50 liters of HLT water down to 5.5 - not implicitly accepting what was on the Water adjustment page. As for sparge salts, it's OK to just add them to the boil kettle while sparging. Cheers!

[@aresteffensen8688]

Am only just getting into water chemistry and checking out calculators (also BeerSmith is handy for suggesting additions for a noob). Anyway, what a great informative video (also parts I and II)! Thank you!

[@TonyYates]

Glad you liked it, cheers!

[@LittleTrebjorn]

Hi Tony. Great videos you make. I have some questions regarding salts. I have tried testing brewery salts as part of the brewing process. Then I see that several programs also include salts in sparse water. Why is this necessary?Until now, I have just adjusted the sparge water with lactic acid down to about pH 5.5. Isen´t it most important to adjust water during the mash? As long as sparge water is not too high in ph? The last question goes on LaMotte's water analysis set. Seeing that the sets have limited shelf life, do you think it's important to relate to? Closed up in 80-100 tests will take a long time. Or if it´s will be som terribly expensive tests before I have to throw the set. Thanx Øyvind

[@TonyYates]

Hei Øyvind! You are right, I think this is one of the most confusing aspects of brewing water calculators. There is an assumption that users would already know why the water is divided into two steps, and no clear explanation why it is that way. The main goal of using salt additions is to target a specific water profile. The complete post-boil volume wort should contain a certain concentration of water ions in it, and there are different ways brewers achieve this, all of which are dependent on a brewers process. A BIAB process may opt to use all the water in the mash and not do a sparge step. It could also split the process up into two steps for a concentrated mash at a specific water to grist ratio, and then sparge to achieve a specific pre-boil volume target. Most brewers opt for some variation of the latter process, splitting the mash and sparge into two steps. With each step, the options then again branch off into a few directions that depend on how a brewer prefers to treat the water. The options are 1) treat all the mash water with the total concentration of salts, 2) treat both the mash and sparge water individually and 3) treat the mash water only with some of the salt additions, acidify the sparge water, and then add the remaining salt additions directly in the boil kettle. The "why would a brewer want to do step 1 or 2 or 3?" has mostly to do with personal preference. Some might prefer to add everything into the mash water. Some might prefer to split it up evenly so that each water source (strike and sparge) have the same desired water composition that what ultimately ends up in the boil kettle as the intended water profile. How you get there really doesn't matter too much, as long as the mash has sufficient calcium ions to assure sufficient enzyme activity in water that is otherwise low in calcium. I would advise _against_ using salt additions to adjust pH, and instead get just the level of desired ions correct, and then use acid options (malt or liquid acid) to adjust pH. With regards to LaMotte brew lab kit.... The expiration date is probably just for liabilities sake. I have had my kit for more than a year now, maybe more than two, and still continues to function properly. I am very satisfied with my kit. Even it it did fail after one year, the price tag is still worth it! It's MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper than any water lab tests I have found here in Norway, just as reliable. It has the added benefit to help out other brewer friends for a small fee (generally a homebrew will do!). :-) So it's been well worth the investment. When this one fails me, or runs out, will I buy a new one? YES! I hope this answers your questions. Cheers!

[@LittleTrebjorn]

Hi, The "Norwegian" water guy. Thank you very much for the explanation. It makes sense to adjust salts to a ratio and not to hit the pH. Should use the technique to adjust both mesk and spare. LaMotte is on wishlist, must convince my brew friends that water is important, so I can make money on the set :)

[@wbrown782]

its an excellet review, very useful

[@TonyYates]

Thanks Walter! Cheers!

[@sandrineuk6691]

hey any recommendations for a ph meter? there is a wide difference in price . I enjoyed the videos theres lots of information in them.

[@TonyYates]

I can only recommend what I have used, and I have used both of these and can recommend them both: www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/PH_Meter#Recommend_pH_Meters

[@sandrineuk6691]

thanks, hopefully understanding water a bit more will take my beer from okay to great.

[@orkodan]

Yet another helpfull video :D is there a calculator you find matches your final reading closest? Do you adjust anything after taking a reading or mark it down for the next brew day? Cheers Tony

[@TonyYates]

Thanks Dan! Once a recipe is prepared in BeerSmith, I use John Palmer's spreadsheet to dial in my additions. Then port both recipe and additions into BrunWater for an additional validity check. I use the predicted Mash pH values from BrunWater to determine if/what acid or basic additions I need to add to hit my target pH. I'll generally print out both Beersmith recipe and the BrunWater water summary page for brew day (Sticky Tenticles showed this on his video when we brewed the Imperial Brown Ale). I take pH readings 10 to 15 minutes into the mash and verify BrunWater's predictions. Generally it's withing few hundredths, but not always. If a prediction is off I add acid to lower or bicarbonate to raise the pH accordingly directly to the Mash. The mash pH will drop over the course of the hour, but not a lot. I have added custom brew sheets in Beersmith with pH measurements that I record a long the way, each brew day (mash pH, run-off pH, post-boil wort pH) and post-fermentation (beer pH). kzbin.info/www/bejne/n366fHRjob2qm68 For the next brew day, I plan on using all of the calculators I discussed in this video and summarize the results in a follow up. Cheers!

[@orkodan]

Tony Yates Thanks Tony, I look forward to that video :) I haven't got further than wort ph but in time once I get my new ph meter calibrated I'll start to record it all

[@RustyHomebrew]

I've just watched the whole 1h 1/2 on a Friday night 🤣 Question, is there any benefit to splitting the additions over sparge and mash rather than adding everything all into the mash? Reason I mention this is because I prefer to add the salts to the grist before I mash in, otherwise I find it doesn't dissolve well. I've recently bought an RO filter system as my tap water is frustrating to get good results with, hard water (see South East UK map on your previous video ha). For my first RO brew, I thought I'd give the Brewfather calculator a chance and used Thomas' auto feature, however, I've just racked it this evening and initially it's tasting a little salty... hopefully that'll fade with age (shouldn't really make a comment until it's ready to drink). - From what I've seen from your video, I'll try the Brun water cal for my next brew. Be interested to hear your thoughts on Brewfather, has great potential, I'm liking what I've seen so far. I've promised to make a video for Thomas, but I'll have a few brew days first to be fair and pick up any flaws to help with its development.

[@TonyYates]

Hi Rusty, sorry you had to suffer this video ;-). There is some difference, yes. The higher the concentration of Calcium and Magnesium minerals in the mash will, to a degree, cause a different reaction in the mash pH. There is of course only so much pH will change due to the amount and type of grain, and I would never advocate to rely solely on those minerals for adjusting mash pH - that's impractical, but grains due tend to soak up quite a lot of water (with dissolved minerals) and therefore what minerals were intended to be in the final beer might not actually be true. The only brewing mineral that does not dissolve well in water is chalk (to raise the pH or alkalinity), and that is one that you do not want to use anyway - use bicarbonate (baking soda) or calcium hydroxide (pickling lime) instead. I know of Brewfather and have played around with it a little. I have told Thomas I would get around to giving it a serious go and compare it with BrunWater and the others. I just haven't had a chance to do that yet, but do have a brew day on the horizon so I should get around to doing that. :-) It looks like an interesting piece of software and has been well thought out. Cheers!

[@WreckedBrewery]

Wow! Thanks for sharing man. So, which calculator do you like most? It seems to me that the Ez Water Calc is a great place to start for a beginner. Also, what are your thoughts on the 5.2 stabilizer? What is it really doing? Being ignorant to water chemistry, I've just always threw in 5.2 in my mash.

[@TonyYates]

I balance between Johns and BruNWater. 5.2 Stabilizer is is only useful for highly alkaline water by exchanging different types of sodium for alkalinity. Boiling or an acid addition is more effective... It's a commonly discussed product on HBT and most users state that it rarely gets them below 5.8 pH. It's also been noted as being similar to a 0-15-0 fertilizer. I think it's a complete waste of money. No one who understands water chemistry uses this stuff. No one. Cheers!

[@WreckedBrewery]

Ha! Good to know! Well, that explains my knowledge of water chemistry. I just blindly used it when I switched to all grain because all the cool kids at the time used it in their videos. It felt like a set it and forget it method. Your information is eye opening and very easy to understand. Thank You!!! First things first, I'm going to buy myself a good ph meter and see what I've been at all along. I've seen your Milwaukee brand in a few videos and I assume it works well for you. I've also ordered the brewer's water test kit from Ward Labs (www.wardlab.com/BrewersKitOrder.php) to see where I am as a starting point here in SC because I have no idea. I've moved here a year ago and just started brewing again the past month. The first beer will be ready to taste test soon, so it should be interesting to see the difference in taste using my same process but SC water vs the PA water I was using before.

[@eyechubcunt3322]

I have more trouble with the calculators than the water chemistry

[@TonyYates]

Hi! What in particular is causing trouble? Is it their predictions vs. real-world experiences, or usability?