"Hitler's Pope": Pius XII did too little too save the Jews from the Holocaust

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Filmed at the Royal Institution of Great Britain on 14th November 2012.
Event info:
Pope Pius XII (1939-58) has been described as "the most dangerous cleric in modern history". He was silent -- his critics argue -- and did nothing during the Holocaust to help the Jews. Others disagree, claiming that he helped save a larger percentage of Jews in Rome than were rescued in any other city under German occupation, and that altogether he prevented thousands of Jewish deaths throughout Italy and across Europe. Was Pius part of a broad Roman Catholic anti-Semitic tradition, subordinating compassion for the Jews to his goal of increasing the power of the papacy? Or a good man doing his best in difficult circumstances?
Both sides are passionate about their positions on this controversial historical figure, but who is right?

[@tomthx5804]

The first speaker is a total moron. He claims that Pacelli brought two railroad cars of food with him because his delicate stomach could not stand German food. This is a lie. He is an idiot for repeating an obvious lie. Germany was on the brink of starvation. The food was immediately distributed to the people of Germany who were going hungry. Isn't it amazing how low these guys will go to slime a Pope?

[@frankhaw3]

He didn't say 2 car loads but 60 cases other than that what is your proof that it isn't true?

[@alexh9778]

Give us a source for your assertion.

[@kaiseruhl]

Why did the state of Israel take up so much of this debate? It had nothing to do with the topic. Israel was founded in 1948, years after the war. Complete red herring.

[@DarkShroom]

no political debate is complete without a bit of Israel!

[@matthewbroderick6287]

The leading Rabbi of Rome became a Catholic Christian and took the baptismal name Eugene, in gratitude for All Pope Pius XII had done to help the Jewish people. The Prime Minister of Israel, Golda Meir, attended the funeral of Pope Pius XII, to honor his memory of all he did to aid the Jewish people. The new york times headline in 1941 reads, " Pope Pius XII is a lonely voice speaking out against all the darkness covering Europe today". Thousands and thousands of Jewish people have testified they are alive today due the intercession of Pope Pius XII!

[@AlexxZhulin]

It would be blamed for silly heroic actions that leads to thousands of innocent death. Instead - critics would probably said - Pope had to be much more delicate and actually save lives. It is a vitrue to be a martyr. But doing something that forces others to be martyrs is entirely different.

[@themessenger6688]

Amen

[@MRO1970]

Look at the jews the Pope did save, most of them converted to catholicism do to the Pope helping them, we tend to forget rabbi zolli who converted to catholicism after the war. The Pope could only do so much without giving away the people he was saving including his own people.

[@themessenger6688]

He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

I'm glad to hear you concede that the pope, who is supposedly the Vicar of Christ on Earth and has direct contact with God, is basically as powerless as anybody else. And it takes no power whatsoever to simply declare that the Nazi regime was evil, which he was too cowardly to do.

[@ethanweeter2732]

That is fine, but convert all the people who were shipped off to Auschwitz then.

[@chesterbless9441]

​@@passionfruit1289Do you have any evidence for this serious accusation?

[@arthurhallett-west5145]

The Vatican has no armies. What would have happened had Pius XII spoken out? Look at the Dutch case

[@martinocelotl8326]

What would have happened if Pacelli hadn't provided Vatican backing to the Nazis in the form of financial and official support beginning in the early 1920s? Unless you believe Vatican aid counts for nothing then you must accept that the Nazis and the Vatican both benefited from their long and involved relationship.

[@22genghis]

So you only speak against murderous atrocity if you are strong? What happened to Christian conscience?????

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

@@22genghis Exactly. What armies did Jesus have? What would have happened if Jesus hadn't "spoken out"? One had the courage of his convictions, whatever cost that might bear, and the other didn't.

[@therac197]

@@22genghis But the Pope did speak it out ... "Mit Brennender Sorge" is a perfect example of Pius condemming the Nazis ideology and still to come actions

[@frankelliott244]

You don't have to be in the army to be in the resistance or break codes. Willem Arondeus, a member of the Dutch resistance, gave up his life to blow up a records office to prevent the Nazis from finding jews in the Netherlands Alan Turing broke the Naval Enigma code. (Pius XI made a deal with Mussolini to ban all jews from all the universities in Italy, thus lobotomizing much of the mathematical and scientific talent in Italy.). They were gay men, those people you Catholics hate and persecute.

[@delacruzgr1]

I'm proud that the Philippines accepted Jewish refugees during their persecution. Let us pray for the protection of the Philippines & Poland...in Jesus name, amen.

[@scooterbob4432]

Rejected by Western countries and even USA, 10,000 visas were to be given by the Philippine government but only 1,200 Jews were able to escape Nazi Germany and reached the Philippines.

[@PeterU571]

Brother Georgio - Shanghai, China saves thousands upon thousands of Jews during this plight on humanity. Pious did nothing to save the Jews, until the later part of the war. This is the main reason he will never be canonized. Just the truth!

[@richardbono5540]

Germany's ally the Japanese encouraged Jewish immigration, they wanted to foster a merchant class in China after they "holocausted" the Chinese. A little ironic as the Chinese are considered the Jews of Asia. Nazi Party member John Heinrich Detlef Rabe saved Chinese from Japanese atrocities in Nanking. Poland on the other hand, not so much, look into the pogroms against returning Jews AFTER THE WAR

[@richardbono5540]

So did the Japanese. They wanted to create a merchant class in China...after they wiped out the Chinese. One of their Ambassador's Chiune Sugihara in Lithuania was issuing so many visas it got a little embarrassing for them. Then there was the Nazi diplomat during the Shanghai Massacre who was saving Chinese from the Japanese. Moral of the story, "don't trust leaders, watch parking meters"

[@richardbono5540]

@ Georgio del Kruz so did Japan

[@KuromixLara]

I find it incredible that the PRO camp won this debate. They presented hardly any evidence. They mainly rehashed old accusations that are no longer generally accepted by the historical community.

[@tomthx5804]

That's england for you. A nation of screwed up atheists who doesn't care about truth any more.

[@jayd4ever]

britain has been anti catholic since 500 years always supporting the protestants

[@1234poppycat]

It tells you more about the hostility against Catholicism than the truth about the Pope

[@cynthiax56]

nope. The chief rabbi of rome defended the pope and said the pope and the church did more to save jewish lives than anyone else. Look up what The chief Rabbi of rome said HIMSELF instead of repeating second hand information from biased sources

[@Conradpenyalva]

+Cynthia Rose Horton Hi I agree at all with this vide. It's very easy to proof that Pius XII was anti semite, anti Jewish and anti Israel. After the Second World War was over and Hitler defeated, Pius XII, nevertheless, rejected to recognizer Israel State (Joan Paul II dit it, why Pius XII not???) By other hand, Pius XII made the decision changing his suport to the Nazis because he was afraid of the Germany failures next to 1945. Best regards

[@cynthiax56]

+Conrad Penyalva Abosolute Rubbish. What I stated in my initial comment is historical fact, and easily verified. Look up what the chief Rabbi of Rome said HIMSELF instead of relying on other sources that "quote" him. Then check out Michael Savage, (himself a Hew) He ALSO defends Pope Pius.

[@paulcoles028]

The Jewish people call Pius XII a Rightius man. The Chief Rabbi of Rome wrote a book called "Before The Dawn" Praising the Pope and after the war he was so impressed by the catholic church that he converted to the church. At his baptism he took the name of Eugenio to show his respect for Pius XII using the Popes own name at Baptism

[@johnclarke5459]

Balderdash!

[@cynthiax56]

@ John....oh no !!! how can I "come back" to a profound comment like that? lol :D

[@briandelaney9710]

Sir Geoffrey lands a pretty low blow when saying about the Pope’s opposition to Communism being about “protecting the Pacelli estates in Italy “. Pope Pius knew of the martyrdom of Christians in the Soviet Union and feared the expansion of that State into Eastern Europe inflicting suffering on many others

[@martinocelotl8326]

Is that why the Ustasi was executing Orthodox Cristians who refused to convert to Catholicism?

[@joanatan5026]

From the embarrassingly shameful misdeeds of Catholic institutions, be it testimonies of sexual assaults by young boys, to forced residential schooling of indigenous children, and other crimes, the obvious lesson is, Satan and his Babylonian loyalists have infiltrated the Catholic Church. But I am confident Mother Mary and all the resurrected saints, St Joseph, St Peter... Will protect God's church. I pray for divine intervention if all else fail.

[@DarkShroom]

@@joanatan5026 it's not my fault, satan made me do it!

[@DarkShroom]

yeah, with the 1917 russian revolution in people's minds (Animal Farm for example was a parody) people feared communism more than facism our own royal family and arstocracy where apologists to nazism at one point, but certainly not communism

[@heismightytosave527]

@@joanatan5026 only Jesus saves and protects!!!

[@anthonydecastro6938]

Sanctimonious people condemning Pope Pius XII when their own governments and leaders DID NOTHING!!!

[@martinocelotl8326]

While is true that Pius XII never met with Hitler, Pacelli certainly did. He met with him personally in 1919. Not only that: he bankrolled him and the Nazi Party! Reference "La Popessa."

[@FRAGIORGIO1]

The first speaker talks of "Cardinal Pacelli" in1917 in Bavaria, when he was not yet cardinal ! Also, the letter to Hitler expresses the sense of unity with the German People under Hitler's leadership. He ingenuously speaks as if the Nazis would grovel at the Pope's words, when they were publicly barbarous in treating not only Jews, but other ethnicities as well such as Poles and Gypsies with great public cruelty,. The pope could condemn Communist atheists, but many Nazis pretended to be be Christian, some Catholics and other Protestants. The Israeli Jew, Pincus Lapide, studied the Net or secret underground erected by Pius XII saved up to 860,000 Jews from death. The Pros did not present many concrete examples, as opposed to the Cons, but English are generally not friendly to the Catholic Church, and these sessions usually draw non-believers in large numbers, so whatever they may say about that, the anti-pope ending vote is not surprising.

[@martinocelotl8326]

How many Jewish deaths might Pius responsible for by fostering Hitler and the Nazi Party in Germany at its inception and through its genesis?

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

Who cares what his title was in 1917? Was he not the same human being, regardless of his title? You are looking to criticize irrelevant details so you don't have to take on the relevant ones, which DAMN the Catholic Church quite badly.

[@katalinabrigitte3395]

Defending THE FINAL SOLUTUION is as despicable as the Vatican is.

[@wonjubhoy]

​@@martinocelotl8326absolute nonsense. Pacelli made 40 speeches on German soil denouncing the Nazis. When Pius XI published the strong condemnation of the Nazis Mit Brenneder Sorge in 1937 he actually admitted that pacelli wrote it. The Nazis recognised pacelli as an enemy. That is why they boycotted his coronation. Nazi newspapers portrayed him as a Jew lover. For once they were telling the truth.

[@frankhaw3]

I find it interesting that the 2nd speaker states that the claims made by the 1st speaker were bad translations...because of what was said but never built a case to prove it.

[@1234poppycat]

Well later this was not countered or opposed

[@martinocelotl8326]

He could have presented the alternate translation which would have certainly been similar. Anyway, nobody wanted to be forced to have to endure more of Doino's shrill.

[@lizbosh7545]

Through out recent history, see no evil, hear no evil and never speak out about evil. Pedophilia, abuse, slavery and the list goes on

[@timlandscheidt]

It looks as if Doino's strategy was to set an example by which Pius XII looked like a saint :-).

[@RetroCatholic3]

Ok it seems like there is a lot of information coming from both sides that all contradict each other (even though not directly). But the most powerful argument I think was the argument of those who gave Pope Pius XII praise after it was all said and done. I mean who would know better than the victims themselves, right? On top of this the supporting side (for the motion) admitted that "perhaps he felt he was saving peoples lives..." All in all it seems those who want to discredit the Pope are saying that they wanted a Pope that would "stand up and say what you believe..." and then having thousands of more people died from such lack of prudence. As that which happened with Archbishop Johhannes de Jong, who if you recall, spook out against the Nazis and thus caused the Germans to round up the Jews and sent them to there deaths.

[@n333k333]

Indeed. "On July 26, 1942 Dutch bishops, including Archbishop Johannes de Jong, issued a decree that openly condemned Nazi deportations of Dutch workers and Jews. The Nazis retaliated by seizing 245 Catholics of Jewish descent, including Edith Stein.[2] The Vatican used the Netherlands' experience to explain its silence during the years of the Holocaust.[3] After the German retaliation, Sister Pasqualina Lehnert, Pius XII's housekeeper and confidante, said the Pope was convinced that while the Bishop’s protest cost more than two hundred lives, a protest by him would mean at least two hundred thousand innocent lives that he was not ready to sacrifice. While politicians, generals, and dictators might gamble with the lives of people, a Pope could not."

[@evansverdlov9105]

One cannot deny that Archbishop Johannes de Jong's condemnation lead to the deportation of 245 catholics of Jewish descent. However, it must be noted that at the time of this condemnation, the Nazis had already begun a large action against Dutch Jews (who were identified based on 'race' rather than religion per Nazi ideology). It is likely that these 245 catholics of Jewish descent would be among the victims of this series of deportations or the many more to come. One cannot disagree with the facts of the reprisal by the Nazis, but it is dangerous to presume that de Jong's condemnation somehow kickstarted the holocaust in the Netherlands or measures against Dutch Jews. Furthermore, one could argue that de Jong's condemnation contributed to the remarkably high number and proportion of Jews saved by the Dutch resistance (16,500 out of a population of ~150,000 in 1941). Contrast this with a country such as Slovakia, which had a catholic priest as its president and saw pervasive complicity by catholic authorities (e.g Ján Vojtaššák), where very few Jews were saved by the resistance or individual sympathetic gentiles, and Jews encountered pogroms upon their return (e.g the Topolcany and Bratislava pogroms). Speaking of pogroms in post-war Europe, Pope Pius XII did nothing to condemn the Kielce pogrom (where 42 Jews were killed) despite being asked to do so during an audience with Rabbi Phillip Bernstein, the advisor to the US on Jewish affairs in Europe. Pope Pius' reasoning for not condemning the pogrom was, quote, 'it is difficult to communicate with the Church in Poland because of its isolation behind the Iron Curtain.'

[@jgrisso07]

I have to wonder, why did the Chief Rabbi of Rome convert to Catholicism after the Second World War and take the baptismal name of Eugenio (Pius's birth name) if he felt Pius XII did nothing. He hid Jews in convents, monasteries, Castel Gafaldo, and the Vatican itself. If he spoke out the way some would have wanted, that protection would have been gone.

[@celticmist14]

He convert !maybe because of Love of Christ but to be m pre cynical maybe he wanted to avoid persecution

[@themessenger6688]

My comment merely states the facts. He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more. Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

Well, that decides the issue, the fact that one Jew converted to Catholicism after the war. I guess the case is closed.

[@McCoyisorder]

I think I agree with the pro-Pope side, but their one speaker just is very annoying and interruptive, and that voice turns me to the smoothness of anti-pope side.

[@themessenger6688]

He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.

[@arthurhallett-west5145]

What did the Archbishop of Canterbury say about the holocaust during the War?

[@colinlavelle7806]

I don't think the Archbishop of Canterbury was a big player on the world stage in those days...he was hardly a world leader. The CofE was not an Universal church.....he was merely the Primate of All England.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

@@colinlavelle7806 Exactly. Arthur, is any of this sinking in?

[@livingthathistory1762]

Too little!? Yet more than any head of state in Europe. I suppose the beds in Castle Gondalfo weren’t soft enough for revisionists.

[@themessenger6688]

Amen . He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more. Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

Really? He did more than Churchill who sent thousands of soldiers, airmen, and sailors to their deaths in fierce battles against the Nazis? Your pope couldn't even muster the balls to give a simple statement. Care to revise your BS position?

[@slavicgypsy5535]

And now that the archives have been released even Sam Harris had said he is due an apology.

[@graysonhoward1562]

Where can we find the archives?

[@mouselord5882]

Where did he say that? Would be amazing of Sam to admit the New Atheists were wrong about him :|

[@denverbritto5606]

​@@mouselord5882interview with mark riebling

[@TheMenghi1]

What order where you, or did you believe to a particular province, just wondering.

[@daniel3231995]

Currently watching pope vs hitler on national geographic

[@roystewart663]

It is a more realistic version of then state of affairs. Meuller who survived the war, had the true facts . He was extremely fortunate Poor Admiral Canaris. Very few people realise his efforts towards the favourable culmination of the war. The spying business was a very risky occupation. I have great regard for Count Von Staffenberg. Again, very few people realise that he was a Catholic with a concience. Being critical is easy. The differcult thing is considering a matter without the true facts. Their is too much "Classified Documentation"; which has yet to be released. Will we see these in our lifetime ? Doubtful..

[@squirrels24seven]

If you guys still think Pope Pius XII is bad, read Church of Spies. It's a great book and it sheds new light upon WW2

[@themessenger6688]

He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.

[@stevecinneide8183]

that book sucks. Pius XII is only barely tied to the assassination plot and no mention is made of the "hidden encyclical".

[@kevinrupp6323]

This man has no clue what the Holy Father did.......

[@tomthx5804]

Now you know why Western Civilzation is crumbing. We do not value the truth anymore, we elevate complete morons to our universities so they can spread lies

[@johnclarke5459]

As long as spare altar boys abound, , ,

[@kevinrupp6323]

That's a stupid comment

[@obligatoryusername7239]

@@johnclarke5459 Nice job of stereotyping all Catholics and Catholic clergy. You gonna call Muslims suicidal fanatics and Jews greedy egotists next?

[@zimnaya]

Get your facts correct and stop just dishing up the old lies. Why was the Pope thanked by multiple sources after WW2 for all that he did to save Jewish people, and why is he considered "righteous among the nations"? One of the chief rabbis was so impressed by all that the Pope did to save the Jews - it is now known that he actually saved more Jewish lives than all the European countries put together! - that he himself decided to convert to Catholicism

[@robertholland8283]

Challenging debate and I still learned a lot thank you intelligence squared.

[@HistoryonYouTube]

So one of his parents was saved by Catholics. I looked at that Daily Mail article but would not take it seriously.

[@heathermackayroberts]

Those against the motion had clearly done years of original research and presented their arguments scrupulously without emotive langauge while the pros relied on secondary sources,their grey hair and inappropriate light-hearted remarks to sway the audience. And the audience was swayed. What does that tell us?

[@roystewart663]

The audience was a bunch of idiots to believe the rubbish they expounded. Let the facts speak for themselves. The Vatican played a major role in saving many jewish people and other people as well. What of the intelligence passed to the allies which assisted their war effort.

[@vimana8873]

U should do ur own research ....about Clerical Fascism, Ustache party in Croatia and President Ante Pavelic,president Joseph Tiso of Slovakia,The Central Party in Germany, Rexiste Party IN Belgium, president Leon Rupnik of Slovenia

[@vimana8873]

Don't forget about about the Nazi Gold and Subsequently the trial Alperin vs Vatican...Also the "Ratlines"

[@martinocelotl8326]

That the game was fixed.

[@frankelliott244]

How can you conclude that if they don't cite documents?

[@Fancymanofthedeep]

ur reffering to. His work has been disected and ridiculed. Thirdly The Church did indeed condone a spirtual condemnation of the Jews until 1964. And don't get me started on the screwed up ideas of limbo and Papal infallibility. Also look up Cardinal Law. The story of that man destroys any shreds of the moral legtimacy that ur church claims to have. Btw excuse any typos writting on phone.

[@mosesmanaka8109]

I am sure the British Royal family did more to help the Jews after they openly supported Hitler before the War. Or maybe Time Magazine did more to help the Jews after naming Hitler Man of the Year in 1933. Or how about Henry Ford who was building trucks for the German Wermarch in Cologne Germany? Do you catch the point?

[@wonjubhoy]

Over 30 western countries refused to take on Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany in 1938. At the same time cardinal pacelli was trying to get Jews out of Nazi Germany to save them. Funny how no one blames western countries for turning their backs on Jewish refugees.

[@patriciaclarke5188]

As always it's ever only the Catholic Church that is held up to account for what it didn't do during WW2, the fact that almost no other world religion had anything to say against the Natzi persecution of the Jews seems to be entirely overlooked. The church of England made no reference to the holocaust, while the British Royal Family had an allegiance to the Natzi party, through Edward V111.There was nothing Pius X11 could have done, that would have made the slightest difference to the plight of the Jews, other than protect them as best he could, behind the walls of the Vatican, and in many other religious houses and seminaries. Speaking out openly against the Natzi regime would have cost even more lives, and effectively brought the closure, of many places of refuge.

[@Waldemarvonanhalt]

Exactly. Some people just expect them to have charged headlong at machineguns. If anyone is going to be blamed, blame the military powers: French for not intervening in 1936 when the Rhineland was remilitarized, or the British in 1938 when they didn't back up Czechoslovakia.

[@celticmist14]

Yes but Patricia, it went on 're It went on indeed his nose. England were !pre removed from it. But The Pope was meant to be the most force

[@celticmist14]

Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty did so much to save the Jews

[@leezaslofsky4438]

The Church of England of course supported King and Country in the war. Britain was never occupied by the Germans. The Royal Family had no allegiance whatsoever to the Nazis. That is a stupid slander, based on the foolishness of the Duke of Windsor, who, after he abdicated, visited Germany and was greeted by Hitler. The King and his family were completely committed to British victory, and did everything they were asked to do to help the cause. Pius XII was the Vicar of Christ on Earth, the head of the Roman Catholic Church, with its hundreds of millions of members, its own independent country and vast wealth and power. He could have used his position to condemn Hitler and his gang for their horrible crimes and call upon all Catholics to oppose them. He could have excommunicated Hitler and his gang, denying them the sacraments until they stopped their criminal actions. Instead, he kept silent and let his priests do as they thought best.

[@themessenger6688]

He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.

[@albertito7796]

Brilliant analyses made by William Doino Jr.; wish you success in your endeavour.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

By "endeavor" are you referring to an all-out effort to apologize for and defend the Catholic Church or an effort to reveal the truth, no matter how much it may tarnish the Catholic Church?

[@tubinit2007]

Would you look at this little weasel of a Vatican defender? Ever hear of Joan of Arc? There are thousands of Buddhist monks and "ordinary" Tibetans who have set themselves on fire to protest China's domination of their land.....but you don't see popes or bishops or cardinals making sacrifices like that. Nothing close to it. They're careerists.

[@robertgautreau5611]

funny he. mention Martin Boreman, who was not Catholic and hated Catholics so he does. not what he is talking about

[@greerwilson9561]

There's an old saying "it's easy to be brave behind castle walls". Pious May not have immediately condemned the holocaust however he was living inside a city controlled (or at least surrounded) by Mussolini, who was Hitlers strongest supporter.

[@tomthx5804]

And he still saved 860 thousand Jews

[@tomthx5804]

And they made a movie, Schindler's list, about a guy who saved 1100

[@martinocelotl8326]

+ Greer Wilson: no castle walls after the war. Why didn't he say condemn the Nazis then?

[@frankhaw3]

True

[@kooringagnd]

@@tomthx5804 only because Schindler wanted cheap labor. Schindler's wife called him " the Arsehole" for a reason.

[@martinocelotl8326]

The overriding assumption in this debate is that Pacelli was some sort of subordinate to Hitler. I feel this is a false assumption and that the facts indicate Pacelli always considered the Holy See supreme to any dictator. His error was to assume that others, especially Catholic politicians, would share his point of view.

[@11Kralle]

Karl Heinz Deschner considered Pope Pius XII. as being a perfect example of a pontifex - which should tell people all they need to know.

[@HistoryonYouTube]

And I don't think we will be getting an answer to that one.

[@MrOphachew]

Don't waist yer time with these anti-Catholic haters and check out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe

[@richardbono5540]

@MrOphachew It won't be a "waste" of time to look up the Inquisition either

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

Right, don't waste your time learning facts, just accept Church dogma.

[@therac197]

@@richardbono5540 You mean the Spanish one? The beacon of bureaucracy and the advancement of judicial proceedings?

[@richardbono5540]

@@therac197 Ya that one

[@Parasmunt]

Had no political power to 'save' anybody or do so called academics not understand his role in the twentieth century (hint it was different to what it was in the 12th Century). Will we also be asking in fifty years if the Church of Rome could have done more to save the Palestinians? A people marked for erasure from history by the world's powers.

[@molondrone4575]

Pius XII duty was to protect Catholics and to protect all humanity by those means. Jews had every financial institution of the day under their control, they had 53 countries declaring war on Germany. They had blank permission to empty Palestine and start a Jewish nation all for themselves. What else did they want???

[@georgebilios5556]

you don't need permission to save a life

[@martinocelotl8326]

Really? As Pope, he had no power? Are you trying to insult the office of the Pope?

[@kooringagnd]

Palestinians? A made up culture. What language do the palestinians speak? Arabic. There is no such language as palestinian.

[@Parasmunt]

@@kooringagnd Even Ptolemy made mention of the land of Palestine in his maps before Christ. Palestine is an ancient land, it is Israel that is a recent invention. No country of Israel ever existed until the 20th Century.

[@prugs3922]

A good read on this subject is by Dan Kurzman, "A Special Mission".

[@americanman81]

He did not himself plot the assassination itself, however he was in aware of, in support of, and involved in the Valkyrie plot (the plot to assassinate Hitler, launch a coup against the Nazis, End the war and holocaust, and remove German troops from lands they invaded).

[@themessenger6688]

Very true. And he hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more. Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.

[@johnclarke5459]

A very simple anecdotal addition A very devout Polish-American friend of mine was among rhe first liberators of Rome. His unit was given an audience.Years later he confided to me that the reception was glacial.

[@tomthx5804]

The film of the visit is available online. It was far from glacial. The Pope is effusive in his praise of the Americans. The crowd was quite happy.

[@FRAGIORGIO1]

Tom thx: Correct, and it is here on KZbin in more than one place.

[@johnclarke5459]

Sorry! I still remember the hurt in his eyes. I also remember the Papal Nazi salute caught on film!

[@FRAGIORGIO1]

Please refer to the Q --Papal Nazi salute caught on film-- Q Where is this evident? Thank you.

[@johnclarke5459]

As Nuncio to Allemagne in the 30s. Try Pathé News. Born in 1933

[@SandyRiverBlue]

He declaimed antisemitism only as it pertained to Catholics of Jewish extraction. Dissembling and personal insults are the surest sign of a weak position.

[@wildhias]

why am i not surprised that the discussions to such a debate like this, are not very reasonable

[@thedon978]

The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, and his family, converted to Catholicism in 1945, after the War. In baptism Rabbi Zolli took the Christian name of Eugenio, in honor of Pius XII, Eugenio Pacelli. Eugenio Zolli knew the truth about Eugenio Pacelli.

[@arthurhallett-west5145]

What did George VI say about the holocaust? ?

[@colinlavelle7806]

I don't think it would have been appropriate for the King to comment......after all the Government at the time was 'his Government' and it was their position to speak on such matters.

[@moyga]

Yes, there's so much deliberate intellectual dishonesty in this debate. For example you will often find attackers of Pius XII saying he was anti-semitic and defenders pointing to various claims he made that were against racism, but what the defenders fail to point out is that the majority of attackers are accusing him of discrimination based on belief in the Jewish religion not race and thus pointing out that he was against racial discrimination is beside the point. So many slights of hand.

[@themessenger6688]

True. And he hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.

[@martinocelotl8326]

Well, Pacelli's remarks about Jews did include physical characteristics, not just religious ones.

[@ethanweeter2732]

Jews are a race as well by their own beliefs I do believe.

[@chesterbless9441]

But Jews are a race. The Nazis killed non-practicing Jews and Catholic Jews.

[@deanronson6331]

@@ethanweeter2732 Most definitely. You don't have to be religious to be Jewish by birth (of a Jewish father, or mother, or both), and you can convert to Judaism without being ethnically Jewish, which some wives of Jews do. However, orthodox Jews don't recognize a person of a Jewish father and gentile mother as a Jew, and neither do they accept converts to Judaism as members of the tribe. Orthodoxy in any religion or political ideology is exclusive, not inclusive.

[@akindelebankole8080]

The fourth speaker looks like the "My Pillow" the Trump supporter guy.

[@TorySlusher]

Perhaps the use of the term "polled" (repeatedly) was somewhat of a poor choice. You will be polled at the end... Oh God, what are they going to do?

[@kevinrupp6323]

A lot more people would have suffered. He saved many many people during the war

[@hansvandenberg6464]

nonsense

[@roystewart663]

Agreed Stronger terms such as "Utter Nonsense" or "Rubbish" would also be appropriate.

[@The_Viking_Explorer]

Is this lies too ?? kzbin.info/www/bejne/lX3RoWyIgsubgcU

[@XLDoubleDouble]

There can be smoke with out fire, as there can be fire without smoke.

[@keithwhitlock726]

Too bad Sir Avro Manhattan wasn't able to debate.

[@rasecbaluyut1800]

I hope there's a mini-series (Like Borgias) on Pius XII.

[@eduardomartinez545]

Borgias and Pius XII are not comparable, but I digress. He didn’t do enough… Saving 85% of the Jewish populace in Rome by hiding them in churches, calling out Hitler’s racism in his 1937 book and using the pope’s summer home as a sanctuary for woman, children, and Jews in the war and yet they have the gall to say he didn’t do enough. Oh, also provided information to allies about the axis plans and won hitler’s iré to such an extent that the propagandist created millions of pamphlets to the German public calling him a Jew loving pope and yet it isn’t enough. Literally, the first and second prime minister of Israel make testimonies on Pius XII being instrumental in saving at least 650 000 Jews.

[@eduardomartinez545]

Honestly, it hurts how a good man can be smeared to such an extent by those that fabricate history and have a bone to pick with the church. Instead of attacking the church’s beliefs, they have to attack their ministers and fabricate history while they at it. Pathetic.

[@eduardomartinez545]

There isn’t a series, but there’s movie, I think. And if the ratings say the truth, it’s good.

[@martinocelotl8326]

@@eduardomartinez545 "Through the door that had been left ajar, Pascalina overheard the prelate [Pacelli] say, 'Munich has been good to me. So has Germany. I pray almighty God that this land remains a holy land, in the hands of Our Lord, and free of communism.' ... It did not come as a surprise to her, therefore, in light of Pacelli's hatred of the Reds, to see the prelate present Hitler with a large cache of Church money to aid the rising revolutionary and his small, struggling band of anticommunists. 'Go quell the devil's works," Pacelli told Hitler. "Help spread the love of Almighty God.' For the love of Almighty God,' she heard the young man [Hitler] reply." Source: Murphy, "La Popessa," 1983.

[@ashb8508]

Great debate. Lesson, for the opposition- don't lose your cool stick to the argument.

[@carolcohen1790]

The Balfour agreement was condoned by UK government.

[@thedoctor.a.s1401]

Just throwing in my 2 cents here as an atheist, let's not delude ourselves into thinking the being pro-Zionist means your anti-fascist, there were many anti-Semites and fascists who were very keen on Zionism like Oswald Mosley and his nasty wife because they thought they don't care where the jews go as long as go (but tbh the mosley and co. would have preferred Madagascar, Jerusalem was too good for the jews etc.). if I'm not mistaken Hannah Arendt condemned zionism because among other reasons she thought the zionism was a capitulation to anti-Semitism. Pius' ambivalence on Zionism and the establishment of a jewish state doesn't axiomatically mean he wasn't an anti-Semite or anti-fascist. The only member of the British parliament that voted against the balfour declaration was the only jewish member the Edwin Montague (he considered himself English and he didn't want to be told that his proper place was in the middle east). And we certainly shouldn't talk about zionism as if it was a good thing or a test of being an ally to Judaism and on that have to disagree with the supporters of the motion. btw who has read david kertzer book, "the pope at war: the secret history of pius XII, mussolini, and hitler?"

[@russell6011]

They couldn't distinguish Popey-boy from being the right hand of god on earth and just another politician. His lack of action indicated he valued politically expediency of his written condemnation over actions that would have actually done some good, such as praying to fix things and write about how to fix things, but never actually get off your damn knees and do what needs to be done. If the pope would have forced the hand of the nazi's to kill him as a maryter, then that would have been powerful, just like the soldiers that lost their lives in this fight. This politician couldn't even do what basic farmers and enlisted teachers as soldiers were willing to risk and do. To that man's question about who ever in this time did enough to stop the nazi's? The soldiers did. They gave everything. Your pope wrote a letter and prayed.

[@annak29]

Well stated, bravo! Those privileged "elites" are double-minded murdering cowards.

[@neroresurrected]

Why am I not surprised, here we have Two “Protestant” Brits arguing for the idea that the pope did nothing to help save Jews or speak out against the Nazis, nothing new here really, their implicit bias presented here is laughable at best and an absolute deplorable insult at worst. There in fact exists much evidence quite to the contrary of their absurd and ridiculous outdated argument. No real debate here other than Pius XII lived a very tumultuous period in history as we all know, and had to skillfully play his cards just right politically to not place the Vatican and the church in direct harms way from a hostile retaliation by Nazi Germany, by no means an easy task in achieving in and of itself. It’s quite easy for us moderns now to say “he didn’t do enough or did nothing” today with our 21st century world view of things. I’ve come to realization that we may never truly know just how tough and turbulent the mid 20th century actually was other than what information we still have available to us today.

[@leonvoltaire]

Yep and when the Nazi loot was to be given back to the holocaust survivors, the Vatican ordered the Swiss vaults open. Oops, my mistake, the Vatican was sued for such, in the 9th Circuit Kangaroo court of Merica!

[@leonvoltaire]

Absolutely balderdash, Operation Ratline ya imbecile!

[@wolfthequarrelsome504]

@@leonvoltaire that occurred after .. the war.

[@leonvoltaire]

@@wolfthequarrelsome504 Yes, as did the destruction of Yugoslavia, involving the Vatican, USA and Germany. And through a Google search linking the Knights of Malta and CIA, I came across the gem: FOIA Nazi War Criminals Disclosure Act Thus admitting the US government working with Nazis, during the Cold War. If I'm not fooled, what does the intelligence agencies of both Russian and China know?

[@leonvoltaire]

@@unam9931 That's not what the trail docs revealed. Were you there when the CIA and Mi6, along with Germany, sent arms and funds to the KLA? Right under your know it all nose? Who give a a flying F about your opinions and you being bloody there? I was in South Central LA, when the CIA bombed the crack and saw the devastation 1st hand. Now go back and read the transcripts from Slobodan Milošević. And how why should i give him creditably you ask? Because when he mentioned the Vatican and the USA worked together, with the Nazis{Operation Ratline}after the war, he was telling the truth. And if you want the proof, well here it is: Under the FOIA: Nazis War Criminals Disclosure Act In short, my government admitted to working with the Nazis, after the war! Now how about all those Orthodox Churches being destroyed, I'm making that up too? Who's the bloody idiot now, ya wanker?

[@tomidomusic]

I don't quite understand why American Christians were shocked when they reached the concentration camps in norther Europe. Were the pulpits not decrying daily and or weekly the inhumanity (lack of love) exuded by Russia, Germany and Japan?

[@Fancymanofthedeep]

again sorry for my typos in my below comment, writting fast on phone. Anyways everything I've said can be looked up and confirmed.

[@tjb70]

William Doino is a horrid public speaker, not to mention WRONG!

[@RantzBizGroup]

Folks, read the book: Disinformation by Pacepa and Rychlak. The truth of the situation lies there.

[@americanman81]

paste the link into your url bar and remove the spaces

[@americanman81]

How am I wasting your time? Do you not know how to use a computer? highlight the link, copy the link, paste the link in your url bar, remove the spaces in between s and ., . and c, c and o, o and m, and m and / and press enter.

[@DarkShroom]

"he could have very likely prevented the whole thing" the guy says.... i'm not sure his reasoning for this, he may well have had a meeting with the nazis i imagine, where they made it clear what they wanted and he exchanges the saftey of the church/state for the jews i imagine it's easy to judge, but certain Italian things may not have survived nazism without him.... even if he is a worm, like the French leaders, same story. I don't think you know this stuff unless you yourself experience an occupation, London being bombed is nothing compared to that

[@themessenger6688]

He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.

[@themessenger6688]

My comment merely states the facts. He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more. Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.

[@martinocelotl8326]

@@themessenger6688 Additionally, had he spoken-out publicly against Hitler he would have had to explain why he helped him rise to power in the first place.

[@themessenger6688]

@@martinocelotl8326 Again, there is no evidence that Pius helped Hitler "rise to power" in the first place. No one has been able to present any evidence to back up that claim.

[@martinocelotl8326]

@@themessenger6688 Will your response, once again, be that it's only natural that for Pacelli to help Hitler because the Soviets were worse? "Through the door that had been left ajar, Pascalina overheard the prelate [Pacelli] say, 'Munich has been good to me. So has Germany. I pray almighty God that this land remains a holy land, in the hands of Our Lord, and free of communism.' ... It did not come as a surprise to her, therefore, in light of Pacelli's hatred of the Reds, to see the prelate present Hitler with a large cache of Church money to aid the rising revolutionary and his small, struggling band of anticommunists. 'Go quell the devil's works,' Pacelli told Hitler. 'Help spread the love of Almighty God.' 'For the love of Almighty God," she heard the young man [Hitler] reply.'" Source:, Murphy, "La Popessa," 1983.

[@mikekenney8362]

I had a conversation with a priest who had spent most of his career in the Vatican. His demeanor darkened perceptibly when the conversation turned into controversy regarding Pius XII. “How could anyone attack that nice old man? He was a saint” was the vociferous argument. And so it goes, Pius has his office, his image, and his loyal supporters. History, thankfully, turns on facts. “Intellectual controversy” devolves upon preponderance of evidence, not canonization. In formal debate one judges coherence, and awards no points for attacking the opposing presenters. Judge for yourself

[@mikelheron20]

Weird to start voting before the two sides have summed up.

[@piushalg8175]

Stalin once asked the rhetorical question how many divisions the pope had. He wanted to emphasize that the pope was not a power he had to take into account. At least Stalin had a valid point to make. And it is always very convienient to point one's finger towards others. I remind everbody of the shameful result of the conference of Evian in 1938 when no country but the Dominican Republic was willing to take more Jewish refugees. They were all so sorry but they were just not able to do more for the Jews. The US congress expressedly voted against the acceptance of 14'000 jewish children. Of course there are many more exemples.

[@willboudreau1187]

The Vatican recognizes Israel in 1993? Hell, that's all you need to know about this entire debate! AntiSemitism was rife in Europe, America, and the Vatican in that period. But I see an obvious winner in this debate in particular, and in the history of the time in general. But to address the debate, it comes down to one central question: NOT, as the debate posits, did the pope not do enough; NOT, as both sides posit, did the pope take local actions to hide Jews; but this: why did the pope not speak out PUBLICLY against Nazism when it counted - during the war? The entire debate, and the entire controversy surrounding the pope can be boiled down to this question. Yes, the pope took local actions to help Jews, and yes, a lot of Jews were saved IN ITALY from his actions; however, the pope's voice traveled WORLDWIDE. Imagine how many Jews would have been saved in all the other countries that were under the Nazi jack boot had the pope made PUBLIC PROCLAMATIONS?! He refused. He quietly saved lives in Italy. That is to the good, but there is no danger if the enemy does not know your are rebelling, so that is simply moral cowardice when he could have fully used his powers of the spoken word (special note to pope apologists - if you want to know what moral courage looks like against the forces of evil when your survival is at stake, pick up any biography of Churchill - now THERE is the very definition of a man exercising ALL OF HIS POWERS AND BEYOND to save humanity in general and the Jews in particular - never has there been a more philosemitic leader on the public stage, AND THAT MOST CERTAINLY EXCLUDES THE POPE). The pope saved some lives, both sides agree, but think of how many people died in other countries from his moral public cowardice. I'm conservative by nature, but to be intellectually honest, I acknowledge the "for the motion" side of the debate, who clearly put up a stronger defense, and the historical facts which were not nullified in the slightest: why did the pope not acknowledge the existence of Israel (until on his death bed), why did he not follow up LOCAL ACTIONS with GLOBAL DENOUNCEMENTS during the way, and why did he refuse to PUBLICLY acknowledge the moral crimes of the Nazis after the war was over and his sacraments were safe?

[@willboudreau1187]

To anyone who refutes my comments above, you might want to take a gander at this video on youtube: "The Vatican's Role in the Promulgation of Italy's 1938 Racial Laws (Full Video)" It's very academic and fact-based, and not politically incendiary.

[@martinocelotl8326]

It seems obvious that the reason Pacelli did not speak out against the Nazis is because he was instrumental in fostering them since the early 1920s. The Nazis turned against the Church just prior to the war by making it clear that their intention was not to help the Vatican convert Jews and Orthodox as outlined in the Reichskonkoradt but instead just kill them. This ruined the Church's part of the deal and immediately rendered the the Nazis a political liability for the Church. Sure, Pacelli could have chosen to admit his mistakes but instead he chose to obfuscate his role.

[@richardbono5540]

@@willboudreau1187 Well stated. Faith without reason is what underscores mans inhumanity to man, whatever the faith. Here's another one the faithful might want to consider THE CATHOLIC CHIURCH IS A FORCE FOR GOOD IN THE WORLD kzbin.info/www/bejne/gIu1lIyXdr6KnZY

[@vimana8873]

Another important detail ought to be mentioned, is the "Enabling Act "; a law passed in Reichstag and Reichsrat (March 1933)that enabled the chancellor(Hitler) to enact laws without consulting the parliament, hence legalised his dictatorship. In order to get the 2/3 majority needed to pass the Act in the parliament,he made a deal with with the Centre Party's chairman, Ludwig Kaas, a Catholic priest, finalising an agreement by 22 March. In exchange Hitler promised to negotiate a Concordat with the Holy see(which he did 4 months later ,July 1933) .By the way ,the Reichskonkordat was signed by then Sec. Of State Cardinal Pacelli on behalf of the Holy See

[@frederickanderson1860]

Duplicity of the authorities of both church and state thirst for power over us sheep. History is a tangled web of lies and counter lies.

[@frereM]

Two specific issues raised in the debate and by audience members struck me as odd. First was the question of why Pius XII had never offered a Requiem Mass for the Jewish dead. A Requiem Mass (the ancient Tridentine rite) is a Roman Catholic ritual for blessing and burial of their dead. It is not something that would be thought appropriate for a deceased of another faith, not even for a Protestant Christian. In fact, the offering of such a Mass for the Jewish dead might easily have been seen as insulting by both Jews and Roman Catholics. The second point was the assertion that Angelo Roncalli (later John XXIII) said that he had only been following the example of Pius XII when forging baptismal certificates for Jews in order to save them from the concentration camps. I've read many accounts of Roncalli's actions at the time. In none of those accounts have I found any sense that he was following the Pope's instructions, express or implied. Aside from those issues, I'd only say that I would far rather read Mr. Doino's comments than listen to them.

[@martinocelotl8326]

While the source of the directive to forge of the baptismal certificates is unknown, the reason behind such is due to the clause in the Reichskonkordat that places Catholics in German occupied territories under Church protection. Of course, the Germans didn't honor that clause in the treaty.

[@frereM]

@@martinocelotl8326 Do you mean to imply that Roncalli received a "directive" from someone to forge the certificates?

[@martinocelotl8326]

@@frereM I would be interested in the reviewing your sources on Roncalli's actions before making any other speculation. I think that you're referring to events at the end of the war and thus my earlier speculation was wrong. Sorry for the confusion.

[@unramoneur4780]

I take issue with the very motion of this symposium-debate: It rests on the utter fallacy that there WAS or COULD HAVE BEEN ANY SOLE individual on Earth at the time that could have done enough, given their position. Hitler/the Nazis ensured there would and could not be before any such individual knew to act. Why should Pius XII, and yes there are disturbing questions to be asked of him as of anyone concerned, be held to utterly untenable standards under such untenable circumstances? To raise such a motion, one must first produce an individual who DID do enough. No, it took whole populations upon populations, never JUST a Roosevelt, a Churchill, hardly a Stalin, never JUST an Eisenhower, Montgomery, Patton. Anyone else? Von Galen? The regime merely continued euthanasia in secrecy. And which notable, powerful individual leader today is giving it "everything they got" to end racism, genocide, climate-change, poverty, wars, oppression, psychopathic dictators? All too beyond us, for any given number or reasons, perhaps the foremost being human limits.

[@rob1978]

I could not finish this interesting debate because of William Doino.

[@bn8579]

Why? Edit: never mind, couldn’t either because of him

[@glauciovin]

A liar against Pius XII. The true is: The Pope saved the jewish people. It's corar. Search the Pave the Way Institute about this.

[@AnEnemy100]

Yes. Next question?

[@frederickanderson1860]

Pope Francis apologized for certain catholic priests involved in the genocide in Rwanda.

[@Rayosun4]

Read everything that Pius XII said or wrote publicly publicly and you will find NOTHING specifically condemning the NAZIS for what they were doing to THE JEWS. He avoided those words like the plague,

[@paulnolack297]

Yeah it’s almost like if he did the Catholic Church would’ve been absolutely annihilated by the Nazi scum.

[@FRAGIORGIO1]

The first speaker insinuates what a secretary of Pacelli said about Jewish bolshevists and ascribes them to the future pope. He speaks of Jews in Poland but ignores that Poles were the primary target of the Nazis and millions of them were killed, but they are not important to the speaker. He ignores the fact that Poland was invaded in 1939 but Auschwitz began killing 1939. The Polish Jews were One of various ethnic groups that were persecuted. He speaks of Pius not protesting the 1,000 Jews rounded up in Rome by the Nazis without Pius protesting, but the speaker ignores the fact that Pius had hidden 5000 Jews in the Vatican itself ! If he that ignorant, or is he twisting facts out of Bigotry? Furthermore, Pius XII had a secret Network or Underground of agents that help in saving Jews, and the Network consisted of bishops, priests, nuns, laymen, and even Vatican diplomats (one of whom was Roncalli, later John XXIII, papal representative in Bulgaria and Turkey). Pincus Lapide, an Israeli Jew, INVESTIGATED the Network and determined that the network had saved about 860,000 Jews. After the war, the World Jewish Congress and the New York Times praised Pius as the Sole Voice of Reason for his constant condemnations of ethnic and racial hatred and even of civilian suffering in the war. At the time, the Nazis were not the Only oppressors of ethnic groups, as the Soviet Union had theirs, the United States ours (black lynched and Hispanics marginalized, ethnic Japanese in concentration camps, Indian children taken from their families; and the British had the oppressive policies of Colonialism as did many other countries such as Japan and France. This is all twaddle to the ignorant and Bigoted. Time to end this sort of rubbish.

[@albertito7796]

You are very correct. Thanks for the admirable explanation.

[@themessenger6688]

He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.

[@themessenger6688]

My comment merely states the facts. He hid Jews in his own home, and had his priests and bishops across Europe do the same and much more. Also, speaking out publicly against Hitler would not have accomplished anything except the deaths of millions of Catholics. Catholic clergy were already being murdered across Europe by the thousands, while the laity was also being terrorized and butchered. If Pius had spoken out publicly against the Nazis, it would only have caused them to intensify their wrath against the Catholic people's of Europe. By resisting Hitler, though the use of spies and assassins (again, he was in direct league with the German resistance which tried to kill Hitler), he was able to mobilize the thousands of remaining Catholic clergy and many of the laity to hide and protect Jews as best as they could. They saves many, and much of the modern Jewish community owns their lives to Pius.

[@HistoryonYouTube]

No it is not a fact. You made it up. If, as you claim, 58 million Germans were living in Poland, which towns were they living in and what was the population?

[@user-th5nb3ox1w]

Why did the SS get vatican passports at the end of the war? There may have been some decent people in the vatican but there were plenty who weren't.

[@avecmoi9429]

Unless one can see all the actual documents themselves it is impossible to make a judgement. The views of he speakers are so mixed. I do not have the time to research this and I know it. Take care.

[@bammbamm12]

Boy - some people are tough to impress. Here's a better question. What man on earth did *more* to help the Jews during Hitler's reign than Pius XII? Names, dates, time and place, please.

[@robertfreid2879]

bammbamm12 While at the same time trying to maintain peace in Europe and trying to stay neutral (at least officially) in times of conflict. "Hitler's Pope" my ass...

[@robertfreid2879]

Leonardo's Truth ??? What? What do you mean he should of sent the Swiss Guard to attack Berlin - you realize the Vatican City is Europe's smallest country? And you realize Pope Pius the 12th went beyond the ethnic and racial lines to save and rescue countless Jews from sure destruction at the hands of the Nazis? It was the atheistic-communist Soviet Union that tried to say Pope Pius 12th was pro-Nazi and quote-on-quote "Hitler's Pope". To 1). Justify the persecution of the Uniate Catholic Churches in eastern Europe after the war that were now under Soviet influence and occupation and 2). Cover up their own asses for their own humiliating collaboration with the Nazis during the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact era...

[@robertfreid2879]

Leonardo's Truth Oh I see. Pardon me then, I apologize. I deal with a lot of critics of the Catholic Church on a daily basis and you won't believe how many absurd and ridiculous arguments I've heard. So it's hard for me to distinguish between who's being serious and who's not being serious and or making a joke. Again, my apologies...

[@bammbamm12]

Shaddap.

[@bammbamm12]

Yes - please rest your case. (though, as the saying goes, "no rest for the wicked".)

[@johnclarke5459]

Jonathan Swift needed to sort these "egg protocols"!

[@SuperIliad]

Early, when Pius XII spoke out against the Nazis, what resulted was the purge of the Warsaw Ghetto. So, he went underground and opted to act surreptitiously and silently. The work done for Jews between Pius XII and Eugenio Maria Zolli, the chief rabbi of Rome, is detailed in the rabbi’s autobiography, “Before the Dawn: Autobiographical Reflections....” More is available in “The Myth of Hitler's Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis” (2005), by Rabbi David G. Dalin, Regnery Publishing, “Disinformation” (2013), by Ion Mihai Pacepa, in which he thoroughly exposes the Marxist treachery of sullying the Pope’s reputation, “Pope Pius XII: Architect for Peace,” by Margherita Marchione. Also, some candid and relevant facts are alluded to in “Valkyrie: An insider’s account of the plot to kill Hitler,” by Hans Bernd Gisevius (1946), I possess hundreds of letters (many personal) and published accounts of Pius' activities in this regard. Pius was called “The best friend the Jews had in Europe” by Ben Gurion, praised and later eulogized by Golda Meir, and early considered in Israel as a Righteous Gentile. Then a Dutch Communist concocted a vile smear in the form of a play depicting an icy Pius XII as an uninterested party and the lie was purveyed by Leftists the world over.

[@celticmist14]

Okay he could NOT act for fear of repercussions so many of these gangsters fled to Argentina and Brazil with help from Rome

[@martinocelotl8326]

There is certainly evidence that Catholic officials did help with the Ratlines, however, despite Pacelli's early support for the Hitler and the Nazi Party, by the time the war started and throughout, Pacelli and the Nazis were bitter enemies. Thus, I see no logical reason for Pacelli to have provided Nazis aid in escape. However, if you have any evidence Pacelli did help Nazis escape, please share.

[@vanpaul147]

He also helped thousands of Nazi war criminals escape to Catholic Argentina

[@themessenger6688]

Lies. He hid Jews in his own home. And during his papacy, thousands of priests and bishops across Europe helped to hide and protect Jewish people from Hitler's regime. Even more so, the papacy itself, under Pius's command, was in league with the Germany resistance movement; the Germans that attempted to kill Hitler. Anyone who says that Pius did "nothing to help the Jews" can go to hell.

[@vanpaul147]

@@themessenger6688 nooooo What you are saying is the LIES

[@themessenger6688]

@@vanpaul147 What lies?

[@vanpaul147]

@@themessenger6688 All of the LIES of the Church. Catholic Priests and the Vatican 100% involved kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5epp3VtZbl8qNk

[@vanpaul147]

@@themessenger6688 You believe the above Lies

[@BudFields]

I think it was clearly delineated in the debate that, while what you are saying may mostly be true, there was a very good reason for it by a Vicar, and a man who realized the power of his silence, in the face of innocent death. To say he did nothing is a logical and consistent fallacy. While saying he did not do enough is subjective, I am convinced he did what he could. That alone marks him as worthy. You should know this. His morality is safe. Not true statement for many others.

[@frankhaw3]

Regardless of what did or did not happen in the past what are individuals doing to fight for YHVH's kingdom and not a religious system?

[@alanh2830]

Ah well, other world leaders don't claim to be God's vicar on earth. He failed as a man, a leader Anne a Christian.

[@1234poppycat]

He certainly did not fail. Logically, historically and morally he was a courageous, caring and astute man who did all he could to oppose Nazism and save countless peoples on many fronts including the Jews -- 4720+ saved in Rome alone. Edith Stein was mentioned in the video. She was an intellectual and Catholic nun, died in the concentration camp because the Church authorities pushed the Nazi too hard. He was in a no win situation but did remarkably well. My only hope is that more Jewish people in Europe during the Nazi reign speak out and record their experiences before they die so the false re-writing of history will be more clearly shown for what it is .

[@darrenhudson5503]

Why didn't the Pope explain his situation after the war finished?..he had ample opportunity to justify his position during the holocaust but never did

[@martinocelotl8326]

As an institution which had propped up the Nazi Party, and with Pacelli himself responsible for that association, Pacelli and the Vatican had a lot of 'splaining to do after the war. I think they decided to obfuscate instead of explain. Remember the Rat Lines. If the Vatican had not helped those Nazis escape they would have been caught by the Allies and the true nature of the relationship between Pacelli and the Nazis would have been revealed. Where there is no contrition there is no forgiveness. You tell me where Pacelli is now.

[@andronicospalaeologos8280]

Basically the Pope’s explanation was, it would be like admitting he did not do enough at that time, for whatever reason..

[@chicago618]

Also crazy what people do in the name of the godless state such as Pol Pot's Cambodia, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China and yes godless Hitler's Germany. Hitler's god was the old Germanic paginism NOT the classical Jewish/ Catholic one. Nice try though.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

Too bad none of the Catholic members of the SS didn't agree with you. And the God referred to on every belt buckle of every Nazi soldier was the pagan God? Nice revisionist history you're putting out there.

[@chicago618]

@@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016 The SS had a deep and abiding hatred of the Catholic Church because of nazism. This is undeniable. The record is clear. Any Catholics in the SS were not the practicing kind. They were good nazis. As for Gott. It predates nazism. By the time It gets to Nazi SS it has become a largely symbolic one,

[@michaelmazowiecki9195]

He also did little or nothing to save Catholics of nations attacked by Nazi Germany. Poland is a leading example as several thousand RC priests were murdered as were 2.7 million RC citizens plus 3 million Polish Jews. The Pope was obsessed with the communist threat and organised Vatican Foreign policy by signing Concordats both as Secretary of State and Pope, with Fascist States , one of the first of which was with Nazi Germany.

[@therac197]

Catholics of nations attacked by Nazi Germany What should he have done? Send the 200 Swiss Guardsmen? The Papal Army hadn´t been a thing for almost 400 years when Hitler came around. Call a crusade? Like seriously what do you imagine? Intelligence? Yeah they did that, the Vatican worked closly with the OSS to support resitence groups.

[@TheGeneralGrievous19]

"What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts. Priests and even high prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism." Israel Zolli - chief rabbi of Rome during WW2.

[@martinocelotl8326]

The Rabbi chose to thank the Pope for having helped as he did rather than curse him for facilitating the rise of Hitler and the Fascists for decades prior, and for then helping many of them escape justice after the war.

[@TheGeneralGrievous19]

@@martinocelotl8326 Nazism was condemed by both Pius XI (Mit brennender Sorge) and Pius XII (Summi Pontificatus). Papacy had nothing to do with the rise of nazism. Nazi regime persecuted Catholics including priests and bishops, kiling many. Public actions against nazism by the Church would just lead to more death and suffering. Catholicism was always a moderate way. On the other hand the Church saved houndred thosands of Jews during the war, hiding them and transporting to free countries. This effort was the greatest. US or UK did virtually nothing. There is no proof that pope knew about ratlines and even if he knew - after the war communism was rightly seen as the biggest threat. They evacuated them from Soviet sphere of influence. Allies were also keen to forgive some Nazis in Western Europe for the same reason.

[@martinocelotl8326]

@@TheGeneralGrievous19 Perhaps you don't know about Eugenio Pacelli's deep involvement in the genesis and development of Nazi Germany. We can start with the diary of his nun confidant, Sister Pascalina, which attests to Pacelli physically giving Hitler a lump of money to get the Party going way early in the game. Later came the Treaty between Nazi Germany and the Vatican -- good stuff. Sure, Hitler later turned on Pacelli, but neither Hitler nor Pacelli got wha they wanted, which was Russia. No Consecration of Russia! Didn't work out for Pacelli -- less for Hitler.

[@TheGeneralGrievous19]

@@martinocelotl8326 Any direct proof for this revelations or just conspiracy theories overheard somewhere? 😒 There is clear historical evidence that His Holiness Venerable Pius PP. XII was strongly anti-Nazi and anti-totalitarian. It is seen in contemporary acounts and e.g. in his encycical 'Summi Pontificatus'. The Church was always commonsensical so the idea that Germany could be a wall against communist barbarism, especially before the war and German atrocities was not unheard of. The same could be said about British and other Western leaders. But there was no sympathy or support, especially after true colors were revealed. The Church was very much supressed under Nazi regime and Pius XII was very concerned about well being and lives of Catholics. The concordat with Hitler was signed to give security to those living under German rule. Without it they would be completly left adrift.

[@martinocelotl8326]

@@TheGeneralGrievous19 It's neither a conspiracy nor theory. It was documented in Sr. Paqualina's diary and cited in the book, "La Popessa" (Murphy, 1983.) Considering the diary was written in praise of Pacelli, and that the book was written in defense of him as well, the source is highly credible: yes, Pacelli did put money directly into Hitler's hand. I think you are correct about the Treaty's purpose to provide security for Catholics living under German rule. The Treaty went further in that it provided security to non-Catholics about to be put under German rule, notably Jews and Orthodox Christians in USSR and eastern Europe, if they agreed to convert to Catholicism. Had the Germans honored that clause the war would have taken a completely different course. Of course, it is well documented that the Ustashi in Croatia, under Nazi rule, did execute many Orthodox Christians for refusing to convert to Catholicism, so it seems likely they were inclined to honor the clauses of the Treaty for the Germans even if the Germans didn't. I suppose they were better Catholics.

[@chicago618]

The pro side (Norwich &Co.) lost on purely historical and intellectual grounds. They won they emotional side. The con side (Doino and Rychlak) simply mounted a devasting historical & rational argument that was tighlty argued and reasoned. At this point believing that Pius XII was silent in the face of evil would be done out of hatred for the Catholic Church not on evidence. The same way that fundamentalists believe in special creation so would you have to believe Pius XII was silent.

[@piushalg8175]

I am naturally aware of the question discusse in this event. But I am quite upset that I never hear any question about leaders of the protestant churches. To argue that there was no popelike church leader on this side would be a very weak argument. I therefore think that i am not wrong when I think that behind this kind of debate is a lot of anti-catholic sentiment. After all the persecution and annihilation of the jews was well known, but largely ignored by the allies.

[@HistoryonYouTube]

So how did he save so many people?

[@denverbritto5606]

Issued passports, hid them in institutions, smuggled them out, etc