Is a performance improvement plan beneficial to the employee or to just fire someone? Quick Hits

This might be the most honest and yet heart wrenching conversations I’ve done.
A couple of weeks ago Stewart Wiggins and I were talking about PIPs and I shared that I have only ever seen three outcomes from someone being put on a PIP:
• They quit
• The manager forgets to document the process and the PIP expires
• They get fired
Stewart agreed and said that he has worked for companies that purposefully create performance improvement plans that were SO impossible that there was no way the person could succeed.
That conversation led to this one.
Ed Samuel has 30 years of experience spanning the corporate world and now working as a career coach at Sam Nova.
Pascal Derrien has had big corporate jobs and now is the CEO of Migraine Ireland.
Along with Stewart who has many years of corporate experience, I knew this panel would have some great insight into the benefits and risks of being put on a performance improvement plan.
In the last 90 seconds of our conversation, I asked for their advice - “If I’m put on a PIP should I try to get better at my current job or start looking for something else?”
All three said start looking.
Ed added a word of warning that many companies in the US don’t even have to give you the 90-day PIP process.
They can fire you because there is often wording on the offer letter that says they can let you go for any (or no) reason.
After listening to the experience and opinions on this Quick Hits - do you think PIPs are actually meant to help improve performance?
Connect with the panelists:
Stewart Wiggins: / stewart-wiggins
Pascal Derrien: / pascalderrien
Ed Samuel: / edsamuel
Dr Robyn Odegaard: / robynodegaard
Want a summary of the Quick Hits I post every week, plus the links to the LinkedIn pages of each of the panelist to show up in your in-box every week? Just let me know where to send it: drrobynodegaard.com/quick-hit...
#quickhits are designed to exercise your brain by letting you listen in on an unscripted conversation to get other people's thoughts on pertinent subjects. If you would like to join a conversation or have a topic you would like to hear discussed, please message me. www.DrRobynOdegaard.com
#PIP #PerformanceImprovementPlan #yourefired

[@comentadoraification]

I kind of survived a PIP. I made it through. But it left me with psychological trauma.

[@DrRobyn]

Congratulations on surviving a PIP but yikes on the trauma. Work should not be like that.

[@joelrionstaves4684]

You don't tell an employee that they have 30-90 days to improve their act but then say you'll recommend termination if they are not flawless. The ONLY thing to result from these are resentment!

[@njm2557]

I received a PIP at my former company a little over a year ago. I took it as the beginning of the end and went hard on the job search. While I was job searching I did work to improve my performance but regardless of the end result I had no intention of staying. The only reasons I feel I got a PIP instead of just getting fired were because I was real close with my supervisor and believe he genuinely cared about my well-being and because I was a minority and the company needed to make sure everything was covered. I was able to find another job before anything escalated and now I'm in a better position.

[@DrRobyn]

That is the ideal outcome for a PIP - being in a better situation. Congratulations.

[@noreasonsu3883]

It is a privilege to manage people ❤

[@nawsheenmuzamil9461]

What an insightful discussion! Thanks Doc and guest speakers.

[@biswaMastAadmi]

I learned PIP is supposed to be considered "Paid Interview Preparation" time. I have been PIPed thrice in 2 orgs, initially I used to proof myself but now I prepare for interviews in PIP

[@DrRobyn]

haha! I haven't heard that before but it's on point!

[@miketrevino2771]

Dr. Robyn, Mr. Wiggins, Mr. Derrien, & Mr. Samuel Wow! I have mad respect for you & panelists & your brutal honesty on PIPs. I received one recently, a widow over 65. It was a soul crusher because it was totally unexpected & in previous companies I had far exceeds performance as a leader, truly love people & want to help them succeed. Thank you very much for your wonderful service & advice from all. There is no recourse for those who receive these horrific PIPs & cannot get unemployment benefits (at least in my state) when you quit, after they’ve pummeled you to the ground. Praying companies who “say” they value their employees discover a better way to truly help employees if there are “valid” performance issues that need coaching or improvement. God bless you all 🙏

[@DrRobyn]

I'm so sorry to hear that happened to you. "Soul crushing" is such an apt description. I am both thankful that our conversation is helpful and sad that it is needed. Best of luck in everything.

[@TaureanDreams]

This information is gold!!!

[@DrRobyn]

Yay! I'm glad you found it valuable.

[@rebeccaking7621]

Got a PIP today. Ugh. Hoping for the best

[@DrRobyn]

Good luck! I hope you have a manager who actively wants to help you grow.

[@engineered-mind]

Your going to get fired - Find a new job asap

[@DrRobyn]

@@engineered-mind Sadly you are likely correct.

[@patrickwc4975]

What happened?

[@carloa98]

I know the feeling. I got one last week Thursday.

[@noviceaditya]

I got PIPed today and this video gave me useful info

[@DrRobyn]

Good luck. I hope it works out for the best for you.

[@3426-y2t]

How did it go

[@NecromancerTO]

How was it ?

[@maryellenputnam-reinhardt3305]

Same, monday.

[@ziggymo88]

I've been PIP-ed recently at work. My boss who delivered it has said that she truly wants me to be successful, but I'm not taking her word. I will do the best I can to turn things around, but I'm exploring other options should the proverbial "shoe" drop.

[@Pinkkermit17]

I was put on a PIP after being with the company for 20 years. My newer to me Manager has different views then I do and I know from the beginning he has not liked me. I have been doing everything I can do beat this , but I know it wont happen. The director of the company told me it was not a way to push me out, and I feel that is a fat lie. It really is making me sick ,, I cant sleep , all I do is cry.. i feel like I am in a nightmare.

[@DrRobyn]

I'm sorry this is happening to you. As we talk about in the video - it is really hard to come back from being put on a PIP. I hope it works out in a good way in the end for you. For now, you might want to polish up your resume

[@akkisuper1]

After working for 14 year iam put on pip by new manager ​@@DrRobyn

[@NecromancerTO]

How are you now?

[@davep1493]

I’m actually a manager who is about to put someone on a PIP. I’ve tried coaching the guy for 6 months and there are continual lapses in production. It’s not easy for those of us on the other side of the table. I feel like a failure because I couldn’t coach the employee . However the employee has been at the company longer than I have and still hasn’t picked up all the technical basics. This person’s lack of performance is dragging down the team as other teammates have to cover for this person

[@DrRobyn]

That speaks exactly to the point many of the speakers make in this video. By the time it gets as far as a PIP, there's very little hope of coming back from it. It sounds like you care and have tried and are now bound by company policy on how you invite this person to find happiness somewhere else. The only thing I would ask is that you not give them false hope. Good luck.

[@jackcarraway4707]

If your boss tries to put you on a PIP, tell him/her you need 24 hours to go over everything before signing. Once you are released from his/her office, walk off the job.

[@DrRobyn]

That is some hardcore advice.

[@moderngod1]

Then you can’t get unemployment

[@desertflowerz89]

Sorry y’all. A PIP is the route a company goes to justify your eventual termination. The term is not definite yet, but between entrenched opinions and the extra work for all involved which breeds resentment it’s best to get a fresh start elsewhere

[@DrRobyn]

Sadly, that does seem to be the prevailing experience.

[@joelrionstaves4684]

If every placed on these, but issue a two-week notice, on the spot.

[@joelrionstaves4684]

PIPs are not about improvement. They should be renamed JTP (Job Termination Plan).

[@Swingman30]

Sounds about right

[@disgruntledtoons]

The oddest thing about the PIP is its name. Since getting maximum performance out of every employee is literally every supervisor's job, shouldn't they be trying to improve every report's performance all the time? And shouldn't they have a plan for it? If the PIP really was a plan to improve performance, everybody should be on one, from the CEO on down, starting on the first day with the company.

[@DrRobyn]

I completely agree. I made this exact point to an HR manager who was trying to argue that PIPs are good and helpful for employees.

[@codydorn9715]

When is an emplpyment lawyer a good idea? I have ADHD and am protected per the Americans with Disabilities Act. I received a PIP today.

[@DrRobyn]

Oof! That is not a question I am qualified to answer. @RyanStygar puts out a lot of content here about things like that.

[@ichetuknee]

You are likely to find it difficult to find an attorney, who works for individual clients. Most employment law attorneys are on the gravy train. They are retained by corporations, because that is where the money is. And since they are on retainer, it is bad business to bite the hand that feeds you ... and feeds you well. And if you do find an employment law attorney to take your case, it is likely that said attorney will gladly collect your money, but not actively work for your interests. For example, in deposition, suppose two managers were in an interview, wherein you were asked if you would do something that you know to be illegal (say, hiring discrimination). The interview was being recorded. You didn't answer the question the way they wanted, so they give you another chance. They stop the recording, and replay it. Then, the HR Manger bluntly explains the illegal thing that they want you to do for them. She restarts the recording and repeats the question. You then reply that you wouldn't do that, because it is illegal. Later, the matter is taken to court, the recording that they told you was being made, and which you saw being made, you heard them replay it; that recording is subpoenaed. The two managers are under pressure from higher ranking management, so (having no integrity) they commit perjury by saying that no such recording was performed, nor exists. Under deposition, you are able to provide the details, the court believes you, but it is two managers against your word. Right about there, your attorney rolls over and plays dead, having already collected the money up front. Don't learn the hard way. FYI: If you are dealing with a company like that, you don't want to be working for them. One day soon, they will throw you under the bus. Bottom line: Get in job search mode. Stay in job search mode. Continuously increase your job skills. Don't get too comfortable. Move up (in your employer's ranks) or out (to another employer) every 2 or 3 years. Otherwise, you will stagnate and your pay increases will always be less than the inflation rate.

[@whoamme1974]

Im in the process of going into a PI. I knew i made some errors in my new position that i been in for under a year . Not hapoy this is happening that I'm will work to get off this PIP. i Been with the company for 3 years. Its a Union company. My gut feeling is the acting manger who is a senior manger is not fond of me. She was not the one who hired me.

[@DrRobyn]

Best of luck! I hope it works out the way you want it to

[@whoamme1974]

​@@DrRobyn I'm going to do my best to turn it around. The other side is I Sort of made peace about it as well. Looking at all of my options in Canada. Thank you for replying back.

[@DrRobyn]

@@whoamme1974 it sounds like you’re in a good place emotionally either way. Come back and let us know how it turns out.

[@christinamorales6887]

What about a person getting a PIP at 90 days of employment.

[@DrRobyn]

That seems like a strange thing to do. If an employer is that unhappy with someone who has only been with them for 90 days, why wouldn't they just let them go? A PIP at that point seems unnecessary

[@ssazerac]

PIP: Here is a list of tasks and goals that you can't possibly complete or meet in the hope you will get demoralized and quit.

[@DrRobyn]

That is SO common! I've heard it called, "managing them out."

[@fruitloopz311]

Last time I got put on a PiP I sabotaged the department lol just fire me

[@Healinglove]

I was put on a PIP, i asked if i had 39, 50 or 90 day's to make improvements, my manager said, 'I'm not doing like that, we'll just meet weekly, and take it from there. I was "reassured" that this absolutely can be worked out. Not sure "what" to believe, I've never been on a PIP before, didn't even know what it was until i looked it up. Thoughts? Most video's I've listened to say, "Find another job." 😮😮

[@DrRobyn]

Most managers (not all) use a PIP to manage someone out. Mostly because if you have a good leader, they don’t need a PIP to help you do your best work. Maybe you’re one of the lucky ones. Although like we said in the video - I would suggest you at least get your resume up to date. Good luck!

[@Healinglove]

​@@DrRobyn Thank you so much for your response. If my manager is sending me on my way, why would she tell me, "She truly believes this can and will be worked out." I do wish she would've worked with me before putting me on a PIP. My manager actually told me, our old boss that worked with us, put HER on a PIP once, and she told me , "She just worked through it." Thoughts? Thanks! ❤

[@DrRobyn]

@@Healinglove Why does anyone lie in work situations? It is a complicated dynamic. However, that she was on a PIP and survived it a good sign I think. Please do come back and let us know how it works out for you.

[@aey2579]

I made it through the PIP but then they put me on another one right after

[@DrRobyn]

That is weird. Did the first one expire or was the second one for a different reason or ??? What was their logic for it?

[@blankakasza7221]

It’s a waste of time. It sometimes includes they can put the person back on PIP any time they want

[@jaydenp4975]

PIPS aren’t required to fire an employee and PIPS can be beneficial. Especially in California. What employer wants to employ an employee who doesn’t meet goals or does substandard work!!

[@DrRobyn]

Do you believe being put on a PIP ever has a positive outcome for an employee?

[@ichetuknee]

@@DrRobyn One does not "help" by by threatening the employee's job. One helps by mentoring. PIPs are used to cut staffing, rather than announcing a lay-off. The lay-off would be an announcement of unsound finances to investors. This would bring devaluation of stock, which would hurt the pockets of the Corporate Board members. Better to de-employ staff quietly, while dumping shares before small investors wake up.

[@DrRobyn]

@@ichetuknee The panel agreed that PIPs are not designed to help an employee. If that was going to happen it would have happened long before there was formal paperwork.

[@kenyasmith2652]

I apologize if I’m all over the place, but here’s my story: In late February 2022, I worked remotely for a small company located in Iowa as a featured web writer. I basically wrote articles that focused on how to use products from a well-known tech brand. I felt like I was on cloud 9 after years of looking and applying for jobs. I was doing something that I enjoyed, the people seemed nice and were eager to help me, I got to travel to Iowa (plane ticket and hotel room was paid for by the company) for company week in July and really enjoyed myself. They even told me not to be afraid of asking for help and to utilize resources. I even had articles that were doing really good with clicks and views. My boss would express how she was proud of me for opening up about any difficulties that I was facing in regards to doing my job. All of that changed in October. On October 4th, I had told my boss that I needed help in an area that I knew I wasn’t improving on, and again, she expressed how proud she was of me for opening up about that and that she would do everything she could to help me. In the early hours of October 5th, my mom and I had to move out of our apartment because our jerk of a third-floor neighbor flooded us out, and we lived on the first floor. We had to stay at a hotel. At that time, we had no idea when we were going to either move back in or get another permanent place to stay. Plus, my mom had to do training for dialysis, and she needed a stable place to live. Thankfully, I had some PTO left and I told my former boss and the execs the situation, and they let me take some 2 weeks off to focus on moving our stuff out from the apartment so that it could be worked on. After the two weeks and still at the hotel, I went back to work on Oct 17, and my boss welcomed me back and told me that I need to do my employee evaluation. I decided to get it over with. I took the Zoom call, and that’s when they (the execs) told me that I was going to be put on probation due to performance. So, I was put on a PIP. What really didn’t sit well with me was when one of the execs mentioned that they fired a co-worker of mine because “he wasn’t interested in improving his performance.” He was hired a week after I was hired. I felt that disclosing his termination during my evaluation was a bit unprofessional of the execs to do. I might be wrong, but I heard that when you do an employee evaluation, it isn’t a good idea to talk about other employees. Anyway, the execs were like, “We don’t want to let go of you, and that’s why we’re putting you on probation.” Then, they talked about what they enjoyed about me, as if that was going to make things better. After the execs left the call, my boss told me that it had surprised her that they were going to make that decision regarding my employment (she participated in the call), but that she would make sure that she would help me make improvements on my performance. They didn’t give a certain time frame for the probation, and I was hoping I would be able to redeem myself. My mom and I finally moved into another apartment in early November, and I had to take some more days off to accompany my mom with her dialysis training. Both November and December were very busy when it came to work due to it being the holiday season. Not only was I writing articles and reporting to my boss and two other people, I was also answering tickets from people who read the articles from the website, and the volume was usually high. Plus, answering tickets was very stressful because you have to make sure that you’re providing accurate information, and many of the tickets that people sent had very complex questions. The co-worker that they had let go of was doing the same tasks as I was doing, so that meant more work for me. Then, around that time, my boss wasn’t available as usual because she had a family crisis. She basically made sure that two co-workers that I reported to supervise my performance. My workload was very heavy. One Thursday in December, one the execs wanted me to join Zoom call, and I was nervous. I joined the chat, and they wanted to let me know that I was getting a bonus, and told me that I deserved it for working hard. I was relieved because I thought they were going to fire me then. Then, they decided to change the format of the web articles. On Jan 4th, My boss told me to join a Zoom call, and I already knew what it was about. They basically said I was being let go. They even talked about how they enjoyed me and how I was such a hard worker. I hated it because I felt that I had fitted in. A few weeks after I got let go, I decided to check on the co-worker that they had fired prior to me. He told me that they had fired him two days into his probation. The whole, ”He wasn’t interested in improving his performance” explanation doesn’t make any sense because how can someone tell in two days if a person isn’t showing interest in improving their performance? To me, that’s not enough time, but of course Iowa is an “at-will” state. It was a shock to me when the execs brought it up because I felt that this co-worker was doing better than I was doing. I hope he’s doing okay. Another thing that kind of makes me wonder was that a month or two before I got flooded out, my boss reached out to me to see if I could answer tickets from customers, and I said yes because I remembered seeing the task as part of the job description when I applied. Guess what? She had asked the same co-worker at the same time and we both were trained at the same time. So, I feel that they were already planning to let us go. Also, while I was out due to the flooding, they were interviewing with one of the freelancers that write articles for their website, and they hired him to replace the co-worker who got fired. I got to meet him, and he was nice. But that goes to say they were already making changes within the company. When I was employed at that place, I felt a sense of belonging somewhere. Even when I went to Iowa for company week, I enjoyed myself. They even gave everyone a t-shirt and a water bottle with the company logo. We even took company photos. I wore that shirt and used that bottle with pride, and I was hoping that I would be able to attend this year’s company week. Now that I’m no longer working there, I can’t even bear to look at the shirt and the bottle. They say it was due to performance, but sometimes I wonder. Maybe they saw that I enjoyed my job “too much”. Maybe it was due to me being the only Black person working there at the time, and they just chose me as a diversity hire. I will never know, but I do feel that something was a bit off about the situation. As for me, I’m currently applying for jobs and I’m working on getting a Google certificate for UX design through Coursera. Wish me well.

[@Priva_C]

Same pattern with my situation. I'm traumatized. The company became part of my identity. I was fired after earning a technical certification that my senior leaders kept failing multiple times and also the only minority in my entire team.

[@joelrionstaves4684]

Virtual hugs to you. This is horrible. If you have a Linkedin profile, please block these people because it's not uncommon for them to want to snoop on your pages after doing this. ETA-You need to throw the bottle and and shirt away.

[@bulldogfightingforfreedom]

It’s a very toxic corporation practice, it means , get of hell out we don’t want you to be here. PIP = Go get another job.