IS AGE OF SIGMAR BAD?! WARHAMMER AGE OF SIGMAR Vs FANTASY!

[@nodosa994]

I respect your opinion and i am happy to see that you as well as many others enjoy AoS. But me as well as many other people who have recently been introduced to Fantasy thanks to Total War, Vermintide and/or Man O' War, have this feeling of impending doom since we are just joining in and enjoying the lore and world, just so we can realize that this world no longer exist. To make matters worse, this also fully stops the progression of Warhammer fantasy's lore, about a dark grim world with dangers and beauty lingering about depending on who and where you are. From what i see in AoS, everything is now divine and powerful, where the common man is now swept under the rug and replaced with super beings and powerful gods among men. I have no problems with it, but it does throw away the amazing aspects of humans being humans, and other monsters being what they are, monsters.

[@jj_see_film]

Cities of sigmaarr boooiiiii

[@drosarius5929]

Nodosa thank you for this response. This hits the nail on the head as to why I lost all interest in playing Age of Sigmar. I just purchased a copy of Warhammer: Total War so I can enjoy armies fighting armies instead of demigods arena.

[@drosarius5929]

JJ Bluefire and you can just chill. The Cities of Sigmar is a fantasy space marine army with only the weakest aspects of humanity left in it. It’s like playing a space marine army in 40K and throwing in a platoon of IG with no special weapons, heavy weapons, transports or tanks.

[@jj_see_film]

@@drosarius5929 other than steamtanks, griffons, free city rules, wargear, gyros, all of the good units,magical carts and command abilties Yeah totally a shit army...also do you even realise that both ig and CoS have their own books?

[@automaton1740]

@@drosarius5929 you haven't even looked at the game since release, have you? Only 3 of the factions have any kind of "Demigod" feel. There are now army restrictions and points costs and most armies feel like armies. The slaves to darkness *feel* like a chaos horde with waves of marauders followed by your elite Chaos Warriors and Chosen. The Skaven can be played in all the different ways you could play it back in Warhammer Fantasy, you can do the traditional swarms of ratmen with powerful artillery and field weapon teams OR you can play the more elite playstyle using stormvermin and skryre acolytes to overwhelm your foe through technology. The Stormcast Eternals have been firmly fleshed out and really make much more sense, they aren't just the Custodes but fantasy any more. They have characters who aren't wielding godlike power and overall the army plays somewhat like the chaos space marines of 40k, with elite small infantry squads, powerful heroes and a generally smaller fielded army. The chaos forces have been fully rounded out with every god wielding it's own army with subtractions between mortals and Daemons, you can also now run a daemon or mortal army under "chaos undivided." The armies of AoS no longer have that strange elites feeling, with any given army you'll be required to run a certain number of battleline forces and are limited on your hero count (no more mourngul swarms). I'd suggest you just check out the new game and look at all the lore and models that exist, If you're hesitant or against buying their models, there is plenty of support for the game on Tabletop Simulator and you can give the game a try for yourself for completely free!

[@Dahras1]

I think the thing that really bummed me out about Age of Sigmar wasn't that it was itself bad but that what it is doesn't really have what I loved about WHFB. Old warhammer had such a distinctive mix of low fantasy grime and grit with high fantasy magic and diversity. It was such a unique setting, so different from anything else. Yeah, AoS is technically a continuation of that same setting but the tone is completely different. For instance, I collected all of the old WHF RPG books and in all of those books you would start out as a ratcatcher or apprentice or beggar or something. Even though the world featured massive battles between titanic armies, it also had space for God talk ratcatchers. I could imagine them in that world. AoS is going for more of a HeMan high fantasy and that's super fun and honestly, in this day and age, when DC makes superman grimdark, pretty unique. But it isn't what WHFB had and what it had was what I loved. I'm sad they aren't continuing in that sprit, aren't refining and supporting it.

[@GreatChickenGod]

Stormcast: mortals that are given new bodies and if they're killed, they get reforged Necrons: aliens that were given new bodies and if they're killed, they're rebuilt stop calling them sigmarines. they are sigmacrons

[@Kitetsu]

Hahaha 🤣 brilliant.

[@shard135]

they're presidents of France ? oO

[@Dustpuma1]

we all know its about how they look, so yea they are space marines... don't try to make a lore comparison

[@GreatChickenGod]

Dustin, they look nothing like marines. sanguinary guard, maybe, but with marines in general, they look nothing alike

[@H240909]

Dustin Puma Oh, so you do understand what a joke is.😒

[@DRTisKING]

Warhammer fantasy battle had Brettonia, thus it is better and my Favorite army was Squatted and I am still cross

[@Armlace]

AoS has Bretonnian-esque Nurgle Rotbringers that pledge themselves to the Lady of Flies and Chivalric Orders that pledge themselves to Alarielle or the Lady of Vines. No models yet, but they are already canon for when they expand the human races beyond the Freeguild.

[@BENR8108]

I’d hope they’d find a way to do Brettoonia/Blood Knights with Giles and Aborash coming back and busting heads

[@jj_see_film]

They do, they're called flesh eater courts

[@samuelrodriguez9801]

@@jj_see_film That's like Mousillon and Ghoul Kings rolled into one.

[@thomaschampion5221]

Still building my Vampire Counts with square bases. Age of Sigmar seems so contrived and less relatable in its lore, and is too simplistic in its rules to interest me very much. I will admit though that models such as the Shadespire skittles and the Knight of Shrouds are fantastic, and I have been putting them on square slotta bases too.

[@Kitetsu]

Keep doing what you love doing. The rules of AoS have significantly more depth than first appearances suggest. Sure the core rules are basic but the warscrolls, battalions and allegiance abilities amount to quite a lot.

[@brianp6859]

@@Kitetsu Don't forget the flexibility of movement. This alone adds alot of depth to the game. Learning to pile in effectively is also an important aspect of close combat as it results in the gain or loss of quantity of attacks much more than fantasy ever did. (Well unless you were getting outflanked but if that was happening you were likely losing that combat anyways and other than that you could not alter your quantity of attacks without reforming which in itself was a rather slow process)

[@linkofvev]

I love the miniatures they've released but I use them for other non GW games.

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

@@brianp6859 so in the end it is 40k ;) piling in, flexible movement, round bases, quasi space marines........ but all in all a bit simpler and a lot less shooting..... well....

[@remeythecat1502]

I preferred the customization of (old) fantasy of the characters

[@Kitetsu]

I mention in the video that some people prefer the depth of rules in fantasy :)

[@remeythecat1502]

not just the rules mainly the the choice

[@GI.Jared1984]

i agree

[@doodledude3]

Yeah the only thing I really miss is hero building, making your characters from the ground up with their own relics and powers, that customisation that made your characters personal and converting the models to represent them. I've since gotten over that but I was pretty mad about it for a while. And they've started to reintroduce that a little anyway

[@tullaris07]

@remeythecat Many factions have 2 or 3 sets of 6 artefacts and can additionally choose between 6 different Command traits. This equates to roughly 24 unique items to tweak characters. I just looked at a few of my 8th edition Fantasy army books, there were between 8 and 10 magic items plus the long list of generic items (30 items or so?). I'd rather have 24 unique items than 10 unique and 30 generic, personally. In WHFB, a Lord got 100 pts and if you filled that all out, you'd usually have 3 or possibly 4 items. In AoS they can have a command trait and an artefact, only 1 or 2 items less. I do recognize that it is different, but I personally don't find it that different.

[@karoluspatricius6271]

The lack of Tomb Kings so far is immensely depressing, but ma lizzies became star gods who make sigmarines look like chumps, so that’s ok. Settra does not get killed off, Settra kills off game

[@theadtheogrekiller5629]

ashdogplayz and the worst part is tomb kings were one of the more unique factions in warhammer, I hope they try to revive them in some way or at least pay tribute to them. Genestealer cults and other old factions coming back for 40k does make it seem hopeful that they could bring back factions in AOS! I do love the new factions they are making and I can’t wait to see where they take it, RIP tomb kings

[@TheGlobuleReturns]

You can bet theyre planning a big skele tomb/egyptian army to add to the death faction. We've had Chaos (nurgle), Order (Khaine) and now with malign portents and the focus on Death I'm hoping they bring back a tomb king esq faction. Not because I particularly like them.. just so everyone stops moaning about it.

[@Kitetsu]

Exactly what I said in the video! If the game gives you enough choice you will find a faction you love. But yer id love to see them return too

[@alexchaviramusic]

lol

[@DarkLordOfSweden]

ashdogplayz I personally find that the the Lizardmen only got more boring by turning into "good" demons

[@Rohnon]

I am really sorry this text got out of hand, since I wanted to explain my point in detail, without sounding like a hater... I really dislike AoS. Almost hate it even. While 8th brought me back to 40k, AoS drove me away from Fantasy... My point is: AoS *is not* a sequel of Fantasy. Allow me to explain: 8th is a continuation of 40k. Cadia gets blown up (one planet in a billion). The eye of Terror ripps the Galaxy in half, everyone goes through alot of strife and Primarch returns to save the day. This was a bold move, but it was not a stretch. During the End Times: The Planet blew up (in an overall Lore wise weak story) The *whole Setting* changed. While the old world was very much a Fantasy World, it was modeled around 15th century europe, with heavy Fantasy elements. But it was very much recognisable and even outside of itself logical. (very much like GoT for example) Now the Setting is very odd. We have 4 factions, whose themes are honestly very bland... (destruction because we smash, death because we dead, chaos because we do what death and destruction does but we are daemons! and Order is everything that resembled a proper civilisation, now lives in a meltingpot of.... basically cultural nothingness) Then we have Realms, that are loosely defined by the winds of chaos and connected by .... magic Stargates, basically defying the need of maps, or lands or even worlds, as every faction has it's own realms and they in itself have nothing to distinguish them in themselves (like i.e. nations) It reminds me like TES:Oblivion with the Daedric Realms, but in TES you atleast have some sort of World with clear distinct Nations and Stories. Admittet with the Daughters of Khaine we are basically getting there. But this would be one SubFactions that distincts itself from the Rest of the *MASSIVE* Cultural Nothingness. Yes I dislike the Sigmarites, not because they are something new, but because how they are implemented and how bland they are. They are odd. They are as odd as the new setting. Kinda fitting, but not helping. They seem like they want to be everything, but are nothing, at least visually they are so unfitting to the rest of the Fantasyrange, it is hard for me to feel like they are part of the setting of any picture. Now I agree with the positive factors, like the Rule streamlining, however they did it so poorly at the beginning that many players in my area were driven away. Two close friends don't want to give the modern AoS a chance, because of the bad experience (making my large Beastmenarmy useless, since I only like to play with friends) It got so bad that two local GWs close shortly after the whole AoS thing (Mülheim and Oberhausen) now I don't know every bit about the background of those decisions, but a large part of Mülheims Base were Fantasyveterans, which (as far as I understand it) all did not take the transition well (and still don't play AoS) I just feel like the move, while it may brought some people into the hobby/revived it, drove too many away, especially in Germany (at least locally) many players just left, either for other companies, 40k or stuck with what they had. I believe that this move was wrong. Yes maybe the story will get good at some point. But let's be honest, a TV Show which has 6 seasons and the first 3 are crap, is a crap show. And as a person who has most fun in painting, modelling and the story, just can't play in a setting where I know the story is... Bad. So yeah, sorry again for the long text, I thank everyone who read the whole thing and I'm interested in your take on my views. :)

[@Kitetsu]

I’m looking forward to reading your thoughts properly. Thanks for being so respectful with your opinions though. Makes me want to try and see your perspective. Top job sir 👍🏻

[@Armlace]

Have you read any of the books? We already got racism between the Azyrites and the natives of the mortal realms. Check out either Spear of Shadows or City of Secrets for that.

[@r4tt583]

I can see where you are coming from but I think that if GW had the same amount of time with AoS as they did with fantasy I think the aos could surpass it.( At the same time fantasy will always have a special place in all are hearts) I think that age of sigmar just needs some more story telling time and character development...

[@Rohnon]

@Armlance: I did not read any novels (also don't know of any) only read the End Times Stories (Liked Nagash, the rest... well) @Solomon: I mean, I don't dislike the Idea by itself. I just think that it is not a good replacer for Fantasy (As I don't recognise it as a sequel) If it was distinct separate, or even a completely other Universe (maybe even by another Company) I'd maybe quite enjoy it even! But not at the cost of great storytelling! However a good thing about AoS: It get's me to grab Fantasy Books as long as they are around to read them :D PS. how does one actually reply on KZbin? It changes all the time and I'm super confused

[@zedatkinszed1216]

I'm sorry @GiantDad but I have to totally disagree re: the setting. Now, I loved WHFB. And I still do but let's not get nostalgic to the point of ignoring facts. WHFB didn't really make sense nor was it all that imaginative in terms of a setting. It was Earth as we know it in terms of continents with proxy cultures and races for Earth ones (Ulthuan = Atlantis; Tilea = Italy; Estalia = Spain, Cathy = China, Nippon = Japan, Albion=England; Empire=Germany; Brettonia=France; TK = Egypt, Araby = Middle East, Hind = India; Lustria = Mayan culture; Sylvania = Transylavia; Kislev = Russia; the Badlands were in Africa; Chaos/Norsca = Vikings). Very very little went into imaging this. Then you had the Empire with steam tanks, and dwarves with guns while Chaos didn't even have bows and arrows. Dark Elves had repeater crossbows with less range than a bow. This doesn't make any sense. All the races were Tolkien meets Moorcock knock offs. And so was the narrative of the setting. Heck the whole explanation of Chaos is totally Michael Moorcock too. None of it was original, logical or fair. If (and to me it's a big if) WHFB was like GoT then AOS is DnD. The setting has multiple planes of existence with different levels of technology. The fantasy genre has always had this element in it. Tolkien and CS Lewis didn't but the genre does (Ursula Le Guin, Terry Brooks, RE Howard and of course Moorcock to name a few). AOS is in every sense an evolution of the WHFB brand and game. Has it change radically - yes. Has it change beyond any recognition - maybe to some. Will it survive - yes. Is it better than WHFB - no, it's a new game. Judging AOS by WHFB is like judging Shadespire by Mordheim. They're completely different. Your problem with Stormcast isn't unusual. I felt like that initially. Then I read about the lore and the setting and them. They make prefect sense once you stop judging AOS by WHFB. AOS came along because not enough ppl were buying WHFB models. End of story. AOS's launch wouldn't kill two stores but a long term lack of viability would. Sales had been in trouble for a while and GW was relying on royalties from licences on games etc (count up how many 40K games there have been in the last decade) , the popularity of LOTR (which fell off by the end of the 2000s) and then when there was a decline in sales of 40K itself around 2013 (X-wing launched in 2012) and then basically a death of WHFB sales, GW had one choice - change! (All of this can be found on BOLS btw) If as many ppl were buying WHFB in 2013 as they are buying AOS now then WHFB would still be alive. And given the bad launch, the year without points, and the general level of hate GW built-up over the last 15 years it's a damned miracle that AOS is where it is now and that GW is where it is too. Ultimately this is the answer for GW and for the world on how well AOS is performing (not whether it's good or better than WHFB as a game, but better as a product). It's not about whether one liked the setting or how well developed the lore might have been but rather a hard question about sales and public interest. After 3 years AOS has good sales figures and good public interest. But unfortunately WHFB after almost 30 years had lost them both.

[@H240909]

For me personally, I see them both as the same universe and I love them both. But for the sake of discussion, AoS has a better time on the tabletop but at the moment fantasy has better lore. However, that is only because AoS is at a disadvantage with how young it is. The lore we have gotten and are continuing to get has been pretty good. So for someone like me who follows lore above all else, fantasy is better but AoS is building up to be so much more.

[@Kitetsu]

Agreed there!

[@MadOrse]

Sorry but it just doesn't sit right with me. In the back of my head I can't help but think that they just rushed fluff out to make it "cool". I will always have a hard time with the sigmar fluff since they killed fantasy to create it. Fantasy had a gritty world that really appealed to me. Especially the empire was fascinating. The common man standing up to all the horrors of the world etc. AoS feels so full of super beings that there doesn't seem to be space for the common soldier, which is really disenchanting for me. As for models and table top, AoS looks neat.

[@H240909]

MadOrse Well if you are tired of super humans, you could look up the Freeguild cities. They fight Chaos and Destruction almost everyday in some cases. I’ve also heard some good things about the Eight Lamentations series.

[@drosarius5929]

@@MadOrse Amen to that.

[@nilkafi3932]

Hi, I used to be one of those person who came back to AoS after ten years of absence from the whole game. I was surprised to see the old world destroyed and learn that most of my heroes had perished (Grimgor forever). And for a long time I despised The Stormcast without even taking an interest in their lore just because I thought they were the equivalent of the space marines. It took your channel and 2+Tough's for me to finally see the good part of this new game. I don't really know where I'm going with this comment, but what I'm trying to say, as a conclusion is: Thank you for your work and the passion you share. Cheers

[@Kitetsu]

Thanks for the kind words 😃 and I’m glad you are seeing more of the depth that the lore has to offer! Yer 2+ does some great videos!

[@GlennGriffin]

Hi Kitetsu, not sure if you'll read this as you got a lot of comments on this video. Do you think GW could have Warhammer Fantasy or a square base rank and file game as a specialist game in the future to cover that niche or would it just take away from AoS? Personally I don't see why Fantasy could be a different system as a specialist game. Base it in the Age of Myth. Like 30k/40k

[@josephjustice4553]

We can only hope.

[@8panthermodern2]

The factions, units, even new models for Age of Sigmar are almost unrecognizable to me as being in the Warhammer universe for someone who grew up with Warhammer Fantasy. I don't think I'll ever be able to accept it.

[@jimmyQW9welB6Sm90cHNy]

As an outsider looking in (I've only really played the video games), I was surprised to see you didn't address what I see as the real problem with the age of sigmar. It looks like AOS is a shift from dark fantasy to high fantasy. AOS has a greater focus on grand characters and heroes were the original had a good mix of legendary characters and normal every day citizens. Also, the renaming of factions seems like a blatant way of putting money before quality. The only reason they must have done that is, so they can trademark each faction.

[@judohid]

What a wonderful video! I've just gotten into Warhammer due to the Total War games and im getting into the tabletop game, but when I look at alot of Warhammer channels all I see is people refusing to post anything AoS related because they allegedly hate it so much. I just didn't understand what was going in but now I get it as it seems most people will just have a hard time giving up the well-established universe. I think in the coming years new players will join and old players will come round ;)

[@Kitetsu]

Thanks :) and thanks for the sub! Oh that’s a great game. So good we have it to keep fantasy alive 😃 ha yer I’m that one guy who doesn’t care if lots of other people don’t like it. I like it enough to talk about it and I have a really great following who support me and love it too. 😃😃 and yer you hit the nail on the head. I think my video pretty much sums up everything that everyone had an issue with about AoS. And as you said, it boils down to letting something they loved go

[@judohid]

I think I can learn a whole lot about AoS from your channel :) looking forward to it

[@zackholloway324]

I’m a new player ish.. I have only played AoS and unlike most of the folks who hate the lore I’ve read quite a bit and loved it!

[@RemnentsPasts]

My only gripe with AoS is there needs to be a bit more of a push fleshing out and revamping old armies more than introducing new factions.

[@LordAlbrecht]

I'm pretty glad about age of sigmar. It sucks that fantasy was basically made irrelevant (i'm aware this is a progression rather than a retcon) but in way it was immortalized by total war, and there is absolutely no better format for a setting with massive scale battles. I started in 40k and even though my fondness was greater for fantasy, i had no chance of selling my friends on it, and the community around me was so dead I couldn't even so much as find a game to watch. Any complaints i have about age of sigmar are mainly in regard to how it launched, and i don't just mean that they didn't have points so much as so many factions fell in the gutter and weren't fleshed out. It was fine that wood elves were split into sylvaneth and wanderers. I didn't even mind that Dark Elves were severed into Darkling Covens, Daughters of Khaine, Privateers and order serpentis. I was excited to see smaller and more defined factions evolve over time. The issue was that I couldn't read about any of that. I had nothing to read to learn about the wanderers. I had no way of learning about ANY of the 4 factions that my favorite faction was split into. I wanted to be drawn in and even teased, I knew it was early but i wanted room to at least speculate, and GW had seemingly no interest in making that happen. Shit, if you told me "Hey man, don't worry, in 3 years one of mini factions that your favorite faction was fractured into is gonna get some attention, hold in there" I'd probably just get really pissed off. But time does heal all things, and fastforward to now, I've just finished assembling Morathi in her oracle form. It's the type of thing you're hesitant to put paint on, and perhaps my favorite miniature ever produced. I never expected daughters of Khaine of all factions to get a battletome, and the way they've been fleshed out is absolutely genius. It'll probably be about 20 years before all of our listed factions get a battletome, but i'm now happily willing to wait.

[@Jewus19]

A friend of mine bought the War Altar of Sigmar for 50 Euro because with its warscroll it was a strong addition to buff his state regiments melee prowess. 3 weeks later, the new Generals Handbook arrived, splitting THE SHEIT out of "The Empire", deleting a million units entirely, making his freshly bought and built War Alter "Devoted of Sigmar" faction. Now (because it is so expensive pointwise) he will never realistically be able to play his Altar, the warscroll did even change in a way that it does only effect "Devoted of Sigmar" units. State Troops do not have that keyword. With a single release, GW ABSOLUTELY devalued his last bought items together with most units he bought for warhammer some years back. Now for me THAT is simply cheating a customer.

[@Jewus19]

following this trend: I will not buy ANYTHING for Age of Sigmar for I am not a milk cow. AoS has many nice factions but 2/3rds of them could be devalued ANY RANDOM DAY via some fresh relese of a handbook or simply downgrading its warscroll. I even wonder if I can put my Stormcasts in a trash can in 5 years because GW may randomly decide that its time for a "fresh start".

[@OldManSakaki]

People seem to forget that Warhammer fantasy had over 30 years to develop its game mechanics, lore, and characters. Age of Sigmar has been around for, what? Three/Four Years? Age of Sigmar had a terrible launch, but it has sorted itself out and is now flourishing. I can't wait to see what is installed for it in the future.

[@Kitetsu]

Yer I mention all that in the video pretty much. I wouldn’t say the launch was “terrible” (aside from the balancing and lack of points), but people maybe just expected too much

[@McRino1]

I think, one big issue was do with how much money people spent on the end times, all the books / models and then GW turned around and said sorry its all worthless now! Personally I didn't mind as I barely play, I like to paint and there are some lovely new models, but I get the anger

[@jonnyenglish1776]

I was one of those who hated this new Warhammer when it first landed. But I am beginning to warm up to it. If you accept it for what it is it actually seems quite cool. Love some of the new models and races.

[@SuperDominic4]

I prefered the old Fantasy Battle, there was plenty of lore, the game was balnced, High elves had fewer models than Goblins, etc..... the fact it's now a Skirmish game with round bases throws me and I made the mistake of picking up the Fantasy Rulebook soon before it changed

[@breezy957]

Ravendelve Tactica i wouldn’t say it was balanced because elves where pretty op

[@SuperDominic4]

they were a glass cannon, sure they can hot hard but couldn't take a hit in return. plus Skaven and some Magical artifacts gave ASF either to select models or to whole armies

[@theadtheogrekiller5629]

Ravendelve Tactica my friend played bretonnians and some of those units were terribly priced because of the older rulebook, we even debated pricing the units for our personal games but then AOS cam around and he decided to flesh out his ogres. I think the game was balanced better then 40k and even tho I played orks which were supposed to be lower tier I never felt weak or cheesed against other people’s lists like when someone brings two imperial knights in a 1000 point game vs an ork army

[@ciprianolopez7559]

Ravendelve Tactica I feel the same way I had two army’s a huge dark elves army and loved playing it and then they take it away and give me round base like 40k I left 40k because I felt Fantasy was more of a grown up game as 40k was dumb down for little kids to get there money

[@theadtheogrekiller5629]

cipriano lopez ok I’m 18 and have been playing both games since I was 12 and I can tell you that fantasy was Way more popular with the kids who played at my hobby store because of the similarities it had with mainstream fantasy, 40k was and still is way darker and is filled with death and brutal images of terrible living conditions and crazed murderers where even the good guys seem brutal and kind of terrible morally speaking. Fantasy has a man who executed his mother for giving birth without his permission, amazing facial hair, knights of the round table, and rats that talk funny and are quite amusing, trust me from my twelve year old mind warhammer was a way more happy and funny setting even with all the brutality it definitely has, in 40k only orks are really amusing to a kid

[@davelee6002]

have you looled into Fantasy Battles: 9th Age? It's a living and breathing ruleset and setting that supports your fantasy models! It's already in second edition, and is very tuned competitively.

[@FengLong]

I paint models for it and follow the story; but I hate some rules and mechanics like fixed to-hit/wound rolls and no restriction on shooting into mêlée. It sucks so much I feel fine to collect armies now for the inevitable future when they improve the game. The only way from here is up~

[@lukewind13]

Short answer, Yes. Middle answer. kind of, The new models are fine. New "Races", (Par the sigmarines ofc) But the lore, Oh god the *Murder* Of warhammer fantasy is something that AOS Will never be able to overcome.

[@erikbrown1827]

It's like this, for my mates and i. We been playing Warhammer for well over 30 years. And granted some of the mechanics has changed over the years, WP, Int., Cl, went away. But it was always close to the same mechanics. We play 20,000 pts. Over the weekends, or sometimes more. We liked the grand scale of the game. But AoS blew everything out of the water. I, out of my 5 mates still has my Dwarfs army, but my mates sold theirs off after AoS. We were emerged in the Old World. Had tons of Maps for the Large scale battles we would run for our Campaign. Tons of Buildings, and other fantasy based terrain. I have a few left. So long story short, GW should have just made a side game, rather then shitting on everyone, and blowing up the Old Workd. Btjm. I'm continuing to paint my my Karaz-A-Karak Throng. Still trying to find a decent price for our King. I'm keeping the flame alive, and ran into a mate for an upcoming 6th. Edition battle. He just has to dust off his miniatures, And open boxes for his books, and terrain. My excuse,.. Sigmar should not have drank Bugmans XXXX, he can't handle that stuff. It made him think he was a God, and blew up the Old World. ;)

[@Kitetsu]

Woahhhh 20k point games?!?! I can’t say I have ever done anything even remotely close to that. But yer it was a bitter pill to swallow for a lot of people

[@Chipsey_TV]

Great video, and some great points made... Personally, I love AOS, collecting, painting and playing. I only collected and painted models in WHFB, I always wanted to get into playing, just never got round to it. I do miss some of the more... human like models, most armies currently seem to be godlike. My main army, Dispossessed are falling behind quite a bit, I still enjoy playing them but it's very clear how under powered they are. Losing artillery and named characters kinda sucks tbh, I can forgive the named characters, but the artillery... I really hope we see Ironweld Arsenal go back into their original factions. Like I said.. I love AOS, I'm enjoying everything about it, I'm currently painting Kurnoth Hunters as we speak.. But I have my old 8th Edition rule book next to me (even though I didn't play..) and it's a huge book, so much detail, some great shots of miniatures to get you inspired, this gets lost in the current battletomes and generals handbooks.

[@alejandroarrieta2564]

Do you recommend AOS Souldbound for someone that don't have idea about warhammer??? And do you belive that the system is hackable for another lore?

[@Kitetsu]

Love how you left this comment on this video rather than on my Soulbound review 😂 but yes if you know nothing about Warhammer then Soulbound would be fine. It is full of lore and backstory to get you up to speed. As for adapting the system to something else, sure. Like all RPGs that would be really easy ! Anyway take care mate :)

[@alejandroarrieta2564]

@@Kitetsu jajaja yes, sorry, my English is super bad, so I only can understand when have subtitles but this video didn't give me the option, but I notice it that you know a lot, =) thx for the fast answer

[@blindlobster]

If you are going through "Gotrek and Felix" and other good GW Fantasy reading material, here are a few suggestions. Remember that these books/series etc can no longer continue which is a large reason why people hate AoS. Two of the greatest series were on great cliffhangers as well before AoS threw these books into flames. I won't ruin the surprise of which series. Firstly don't my suggestions as law, as I am merely one person. In no real order, (Trollslayer to Vampireslayer), (the entire Brunner series by C.L Werner), (The Sundering Omnibus by Gav Thorpe), (the Tyrion and Teclis trilogy by Bill King), (the entire Witch Hunter series - Werner), (the Malus Darkblade Chronicles), (The Enemy Within by Richard L Byers) and (Necromancer by Johnathan Green). There are other good(ish) fantasy books but believe that those above are the best. I would also suggest avoiding the End Time novels like the plague but I may be biased on that. So.... enjoy what you can find

[@a_lethe_ion]

that doesn't make sense. fantasy ended and despite that we have vermintide 2.. s there is no reason why not some author would ask for a license and finish the story instead of being dickish and jst orphaning the story

[@blindlobster]

I'm sorry, could you rephrase your statement? I'm struggling to perfectly understand that which you are saying. What did I say that didn't make sense?

[@dinnyskips]

hey i really liked this long video. i'd love to see more like this. maybe you could do faction deep dives, discuss starter lists for each faction, long winded discussion on lore from the battle tomes, etc. you hold your own really well in a half an hour long video, it'd be sweet to see more! p.s. painting tutorials maybe? ;)

[@callumjennings6336]

Funny thing is I recently bought Total War: Warhammer and have been keenly interested in the lore. Then I think i saw a reveal of the Idoneth Deepkin and got so hyped that new stuff was still being created. But after some digging i found out that AoS and WHFB are two similar but different entities. I personally prefer the Low fantasy setting and lore of the old version, but on the other hand never did the old version actually get me into a hobby shop to check stuff out. Plus AoS feels much better to get into then both 40k and Fantasy battle. But all i really want from AoS is Bretonnian's and Tomb Kings.

[@josephjustice4553]

You will never see Arthurian Knights in AOS. Sadly.

[@rastamann2009]

My issue with the game is that I want a Fantasy Mass Battle game, which WFB was and AoS really isn’t. Having 200 models on the table now is a chore to me with AoS rules. Granted, this is my problem, but it prevents me from diving in. I liked the video a lot, and agree with most of what you said. I even am planning a couple of forces to get into it in the spirit of the thing, but I just feel that as it is, my larger old style armies have to be played with other rules to come onto a tabletop

[@josephjustice4553]

Kings of War mate.

[@ghostmutton]

I'd played Warhammer Fantasy since I was about ten. I love the setting more than any other piece of media, and know way too much about it. But I was absent for the whole End Times shenanigans. I eventually came back, confused and a bit angry. But after reading about what had been done, what was currently being introduced, and musing on it for more than a hot minute - I realized that the end of Warhammer Fantasy was the best thing that could have happened to the series, both thematically and creatively. We had something like 12 factions going in WF? Everyone knew what they were, what their deal was, what sorts of units and heroes they'd have. Everything in Warhammer had been predetermined by years of (brilliant) writing. Yet that also leaves less wiggle room for introducing new ideas. Wiping the slate clean gives us so much more possibility. I think GW has really nailed every new faction release so far, awesome models, interesting new rules, etc. They could certainly improve in some areas, like expanding some of the factions that have been already released (More factions need the Stormcast treatment), and maybe reducing the price on some of their boxes ($50 battleline units is crazy). But overall I'm excited for the future of the game, there's so much left to explore. And what better way to end the "ultra grimdark fantasy" of Warhammer than for the bad guys to win?

[@pforson]

I don't have any ill will towards AoS, but it's not the game for me. I've tried it (rebased my skaven onto rounds; attended several large tournaments), but I just don't enjoy it. I miss the old wfb lore as I just found the setting more relatable, I prefer rank and flank wargaming (I discovered that I hate moving loads of individually based models around), the aesthetic is too high fantasy for my taste and game balance is all over the place (if I put my Skaven on the table and my opponent has a new battletome like Tzeench or SC, then I'll be lucky to last 3 rounds!) Ultmately I just love the feel of old WFB and AoS is just too different in nearly every respect.

[@aussiewargamer3072]

I'm similar to you in that I left WFB before the end times and came back during AoS. having got back into the hobby, I've just devoured everything AoS. I love it. I love how open and vast the setting is - it allows both games workshop and we the hobbyists scope to just go nuts. Like, dudes that shoot hammers out of there cloaks and dwarf sky pirates and diseased gardeners riding giant snails. love it.

[@laurimaijala4984]

I agree with most what you say but imho Fantasy's best days were in fact the early days. It was humorus, not that dark and gritty and most of all it had the struggle of Enemy Within. I have tried to understand the lore of AOS and have grown to like it (at least more than in the beginning) but I still miss the feeling of "mundanity". That there was a whole world of regular folk. Now it seems that everything and everyone is geared towards war. I don't know (yet) if that's actually the case but I still hope that with the Cubicle 7's upcoming rpg for AOS this issue is met and there will again be something to fight for.

[@welsh_wargaming]

firstly, kudos for talking about the elephant in the room. There is still bad feelings about AoS. Even me personally I winses when I here 'sigmar' and that is from someone who now plays it. I was a primary fantasy player, including the end times, so felt the full force of the change. I couldn't play AoS mainly because of what it represented. The destruction of my favourite game which a lot of people felt. Thank goodness to the 9th age! It gave me back a better version of my game and time to grieve lol which in turn allowed me to finally look into AoS. Now.......I really enjoy both. In summary........they fucked up the transition! You can't obliterate years of Love, lore, rules and commitment then ram a completely different system down our throats without huge backlash!

[@SSVjoker]

Saying that AoS exists because fantasy was not accessible is like saying that Sisters of Battle aren't played because people don't like them. The price was simply outrageous, and that was entirely GW's fault

[@Santzlol]

I miss having new videos from this channel, it's hyped me so much for AOS back in the day

[@briancline7349]

“Really fantasy never died. We’re just in the next stage of the story.” ... yeah but we’re in a stupid stage of the story.

[@sprucemoose6311]

AOS has such and weird setting, it's too weird of a jump from Fantasy. Not only is it completely undeveloped, but from what we know so far it is all over the place the narrative is too difficult to understand. Also, sigmarines. Fantasy was actually easy to understand and follow, making it so much more enjoyable.

[@sjoerdijntema1488]

Kitetsu, i was wondering what your take is on the rules besides those 4 pages. For me, sure the basic rules are four pages and way less complex than fantacy. However if you look at the individual warscrolls and allegiances we havent seen so much complexity an depth, which can be carried out with such a smooth gameplay! In the end in my opinion there is so much to factor in, to actually get a to a decent skill level. And certainly competatively the game never has been more exiting and complex. What is your take on that? P.s. Keep it going! I love your vids and it is a pleasure to watch every time a new one comes up.

[@georgepoptodorov8251]

Two things bug me about AoS. The gritty "grounded" world of fantasy was a better setting and easier to relate, especially from the human point of view. In AoS it's gods vs gods and you can't relate to that... Faceless humanoids in golden power armor... The 2nd thing is that I can't field 200+ Skaven in a game... This is not Mordheim. This is supposed to be a wargame no? And fantasy was not a complicated game. The 9th Age is a streamlined successor to Fantasy. I have never played 8th edition but I learned 9th Age in less than an year and like in many games that's not a lot of time when you have only weekends to play.

[@ashclayton3273]

commenting mid way through so if you cover this point then cool! But its funny you come out with this video now, I was in my LGS on star wars x wing night and I asked one of the players if he played Sigmar.. His answer was to say its not his thing and he preferred WHFB because there was a "reason" for flanking, moving in to the rear, and comparatively AOS is simply a case of "ill meet you in the middle and have a smash up." what do you have to say on this subject? Aside from aura bubbles and command abilities, is it fair to say tactical positioning and movement has been watered down? BTW happy birthday and loving the channel, also on a personal note AOS got me into fantasy and I now prefer it to 40k. Round bases, clearer rules, lower cost barrier and new armies are what drew me in.

[@rickypeh5964]

Another good video. Thx for it. Your good pronunciation makes it very easy to listen and understand a foreign language.

[@judehutchinson4679]

Just started getting into Warhammer Tabletop and am focusing mainly on 40k for now, and was looking at Age of Sigmar as not my scene as it wasn't old world (Even though I never played Fantasy Table Top was always interested in it but could never afford it till now), yet this video gave me some enlightenment. Might just get into it in the future due to this now that I have gotten explained a little to me.

[@jacobcaster]

I have no love for the setting of AoS. The cosmology of the world feels and shows that it was made for a game. The scale nullifies the efforts of mortals and renders nations muted. I enjoyed the Old World as it was an ongoing dark fantasy series that was not following the trend of high/epic fantasy in games. AoS did not need the destruction of the Old World and is generic among the high fantasy of modern times. It convinced me to stop buying Games Workshop products.

[@lestrike2707]

Until a few months ago I dispised AoS (played WHF since I was 9 ; for 18 years). What happened? Well I got a look into the General's handbook and I realized: Wow there is actually some balance. Then I gave it several test games with a friend over the weeks and it flowed really well. There were downsides (shooting into combats and no real option to keep heroes safe) but it was fun as long as I don't take it too siriously (well I stopped tournament games, it just poison for the fun). But the final step towards starting AoS was my girlfriend. I tried to teach her T9A (community driven continuation of WHF which really rocks!) but it was too clumsy and too hard to learn. Then we trief AoS and after the first turn she was in the flow and had fun playing - which is amazing. Will I stop with WHF/9th age now? Surely not, I will rebase everything to square bases and use the models for both systems. I'll stick to AoS for quick fun games which include passable and playable terrain. I'll stick to 9th age for bigger battles with a more "epic" feeling. But! I'll still and always call the Stormcast Eternals (sounds like a metalband) SIGMARINES. Because the name sticks xD. And Mannfred led to the World's destruction XD Well spoken @Kitetsu

[@Kitetsu]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. AoS definitely plays and flows better and is great fun. People think AoS is dumbed down but it has plenty of depth and strategy. But yer cool keep playing my friend :)

[@paperboyjay8161]

Greetings from Germany, Good review. In my case, I played WHF since 4th and playtested AOS after GW killed Warhammer Fantasy. After a couple of games, I decided not invest in AOS, because it is diffrent game compared to WHF. So I started to play The 9th Age - for all those players who still compare AOS with WHF: stop it. Both are totally diffrent games. If you love WHF, rank & file, LOS etc. Try THE 9TH AGE! You can even use your AOS models. Cheers.

[@kenobijursthebadass5233]

I would say that aos is a better game but fantasy has better lore. And there is nothing wrong with the Stormcast eternals except that they are boring and almost have no personality and it's hard to like them.

[@docterzero1503]

Honestly The Stormcast is the worst part of AoS.

[@H240909]

Until you read into them and realize they have plenty of personality

[@jprior1427]

They are getting much better. The gold and blue hammers of sigmar are still super plan. (like old Ultramarines) But the Hallowed Knights are super compelling and have a great battle cry. "ONLY THE FAITHFUL!!!"

[@Armlace]

As soon as I see someone saying how boring or lame the Stormcast are, I 100% know they haven't read anything about the Hallowed Knights.

[@Kitetsu]

The hallowed knights are great and I have enjoyed reading about them a huge amount. I want to paint a unit in their colours just as a tribute.

[@dazmaulwargaming]

I love aos but just wish they had created more lore and characters for each faction before it was released ..... an example is that when I play as my moonclan grots.. . I want to take skarsniks model as skarsnik and not an ordinary grot warboss with cave squig, I find that the rules are fun and allow the game to flow nicely.... but none of the models give you a sense of personality..... all in all I feel that if you hate it that's fine but don't hate it without trying it first..

[@Kitetsu]

Yer we need new characters in AoS badly. With good models and backstories.

[@danmorris5498]

I agree

[@dazmaulwargaming]

Hopefully Morathi is a sign that things are changing.......

[@danmorris5498]

it will take time for new characters to come out. remember it took WHFB 30+ years to get as diverse as it is.

[@ciprianolopez7559]

I miss the rank and file of unit smashing into each other instead of small scrimmage I like how a unit looked in one big block I even love the way you moved it felt more tactical to me dark elves was my favorite army and they where gone I know there coming back but if I’m going to play a scrimmage gameI Rather play 40 K

[@Kitetsu]

Movement trays were awesome 😆

[@ciprianolopez7559]

Kitetsu I really do miss them

[@pm859-u4y]

Have you tried just adapting the rank and file concept to AOS? Using a bit of a combination of both sets of rules? It is what my friends and I do, and it works well enough, been enjoying it.

[@legionaireb]

There's 5 or 6 guys in my gaming group that still use their movement trays in AoS. There's no rule that says you can't move them in one big block.

[@ciprianolopez7559]

Paul Macklin sound like a good idea are dark elves back yet ?

[@AcropolisGames]

Killer intro, who made it?

[@Slaneshhhh]

2 issues that I have with AOS: flat discs floating in space and army books having small amounts of units (fyreslayers etc). Luckily the game system is not interesting to me at all anymore after I switched to boardgames so I'll just buy the new awesome models to paint and wont care for either story or rules :)

[@tiredgardener]

It is refreshing to hear well balanced and thought out discussions centred around GW products. You have my subscription.

[@Kitetsu]

Thanks very much 😃 I’m obviously a huge fan of Warhammer but I do try and be neutral and look at both sides of the argument

[@RobCrawford23]

The problem is that in the case of chaos space marines for 40k is that the figures are awful and if I buy them GW will say they're selling ok so there's no need to update them (though with the current rules they're fairly unplayable anyway) Same thing with the Skaven

[@rayriverssgaming8882]

Never liked fantasy until AoS. I'm a collector as well... not a gamer. To me the models are absolutely gorgeous and I love the fact that they are more 40mm as it is much easier on my eyes.

[@Kitetsu]

Some of you requested a slightly longer video so here it is: This video took a lot of effort to make. I hope you like it and don't forget to smash the like button to keep showing me your support. And WOO! It's my B'day tomorrow :D

[@jortbakker7305]

Happy birthday dude!

[@JamesSerapio]

Happy Birthday

[@r4tt583]

Happy B day! thank you so much for making a long vid for all of us the day before your birthday. ☺

[@Kitetsu]

Thanks my friend, as always 😃 and you are welcome !

[@Kitetsu]

Thanks James 😃

[@yoeptoep1730]

Really liked the background, keep going!!

[@greenghost2008]

Wood Elves are my favorite army. If I lived in the mortal realms I'd be a waywatcher.

[@daval18]

Happy birthday for tomorrow. I hear what you are saying about Age of Sigmar and agree with many of your points. I was a fantasy enthusiast for a long time (since the age of 14 and I learned about high elves). However I have to say in my entire time playing I felt like I never truely breached the inner circle of 'elite' players who would systematically destroy me in every game I played and knew every loophole and interpretation of the veritable tome of rules that were very confusing to a newcomer. The atmosphere for Age of Sigmar seems less clique-like and much easier to get into without, I feel, a drop in any tactical complexity. It is just a different style of rule set with the warscrolls, battalions and faction rules providing the synergy and complexity for a rather simple core rule set. I would disagree with the assertation that the Stormcast have no personality. Loved Thostos Bladestorm and the audio dramas are really well played out with Mannfred and Tarsus Bull-Heart (If you havent listened to them I really recommend the 8 part series). I also recommend the eight-lamentations (Grungni is a boss) and Plague Garden ( Stormcast trekking into the realm of Nurgle and ... well you gotta read it to find out.) Huge fan of the City of Secrets too. I admit I loved the old fluff but it never went anywhere. Just like an old sitcom. This feel like the history is being written with every novel and rulebook. Cant wait for the first novel focussing on Morathi and really want to see Morathi face off against Neferata. That would be a bloodbath. Do miss Gotrek and Felix and can't wait to see where it goes. Oh Oh! Also check out the Overlords of the Iron Dragon. The Karadron are something pretty unique but also very traditionally dwarfish.

[@daval18]

I admit I probably didnt try hard enough to learn all the rules but it was really daunting for a young player and eventually I left the game. I only came back with Aos and now 8th edittion and loving both.

[@Kitetsu]

Thanks buddy. Yer I’m looking forward to reading the Kharadron overlords book! I didn’t say they didn’t have personality: I just said gotrek and Felix blew them away 🤣. The bull heart is cool and I’m enjoying mannfred too. I especially like torglug. Buttttt they still aren’t as well written

[@thomassaxon8254]

In an odd way, I've had the opposite feeling to you. I've genuinely felt more intimidated and "outsidery" trying to play AoS then I ever did with Fantasy (granted, I was never a superb Fantasy player, I was always in it for the narrative). I think that there will always be rules lawyers, and there will always be people that bend the system to suit themselves. But I personally feel that it's harder to spot with AoS then Fantasy or even 8th edition 40K. But that may be just the way that my brain is wired after 17 years of GW games. Honestly, I want to like AoS as a game, and I've personally nothing against it as a game, but it just doesn't suit me. I shall continue with 8th edition 40K and various editions of Fantasy instead I think.

[@texancounselor2101]

I like the AoS rules (now that they have updated things after a couple of years), but I still hate that they killed off the fantasy world. There wasn't any need to do that. They could have advanced the storyline. Of course, GW has also been screwing over fantasy players ever since.

[@Gnulash]

I really like both the models and the lore. It’s high fantasy, which is the one I prefer. I like how active the gods are in the day to day activities in the world. It leaves room for me to make fun characters and motivations based on the overall balance between all the gods and god-like characters. And since the rules that bind the world have a lot of mystery in it, it leaves a lot of room for fun experiments. I really enjoyed reading about god-beasts and the end of the realmgate wars. I like the lore-infused, personal rules for each model, although some are better than others. Most of all, I really enjoy the models that fill in that world, and the incredible relaxation and satisfaction painting brings me.

[@markedwards2607]

This video was a nice change (I’m not a lover of AoS, but I play because it’s here to stay). For me, I loved the level of customisation in old hammer. Building lists was fun if a little time consuming sometimes. AoS is a really nice simple rule set and some of the new models are amazing. My main gripe was how my army transitioned from one rule set to the other. Kinda forced me to collect a new army ;)

[@TheHaechP]

Why not kitbash an abaddon model? I understand it would take a lot of bits, but surely a cataphractii with a bunch of chaos spikes from the chaos terminator set, with a bare head from khorne bloodreavers and then one of the topknots from an ork kit could work. Might try it myself if I ever fall to chaos.

[@GI.Jared1984]

i'm more of a swords & sorcery fan cosmic fantasy is OK but i miss the Old world a bit. the game is OK and the models are pretty good

[@Kitetsu]

I think the swords and sorcery aspect is returning but yer I know what you mean

[@robertjokebr1480]

Please, don't get me wrong about this but... saying that gw descontinued tomb kings because of selling is lazy, if gw wants Money they need to work and advertise well their products, gw now is just too lazy with their propaganda.

[@thelordkragan1888]

No, you just don't understand how their business model works. Word of mouth was always the way they wanted to spread knowledge about them.

[@YiaMdj]

I just feel like a fresh start isnt the way to go for a fantasy setting that's full of history. I lost all interest with age of sigmar.

[@VictorianLudicrousy]

AOS got me back into GW and 40K after years away, now i play both!

[@CesarIsaacPerez]

I love AoS and think it's the perfect game to get started in the hobby. Hell, AoS is so good that 8th ed 40k is basically AoS with a few tweaks.

[@lofton2323]

Happy belated bday. I noticed you focused a lot on the lore, and was wondering what your thoughts are on the game balance and breakdown of the factions. The lore changing doesn't bother me much but them breaking factions into sub factions and focusing a lot on allies does. The current iteration reminds me of 7th ed where it's just about allying with the most OP things which I don't like. (I like armies like seraphon that are largely free from allies.) I ask about your thoughts on the balance because I don't know and have not kept up on it. I personally feel the game needs a few years to flush out the rest of their releases and battletomes such as the rest of the Aelves. I want to see a full release of the AoS factions and I really want them to include the new WE, DE, and dwarf models that they released right before end times In a tome fashion. My perception is these older factions seem weaker. (Again, I haven't been to tournaments but I also don't see them much on the table) Does any of this ring true to a more experienced AoS person such as yourself or are my thoughts wrong. I am genuinely curious as to your thoughts because I have been grabbing a few more death things for my vampires and wouldn't mind getting back into the game. In fact I intend to watch the tournament at adepticon to get a better idea of the state of the game.

[@opesam]

At the risk of necro-ing, I really liked this video! A friend and I are starting to get into AoS, and the very factors that are cited as "negatives" are what has drawn us in. I'm a long time GW fan, but my friend is new to it so it's fun to explore it together.

[@Miguelchalupa]

looking back on this Video.... its funny... You have an (AMAZING) new Abbadon Model... are you goign to Colect Chaos Space Marines?

[@josynaemikohler6572]

The Storm of Chaos had numerous problems: Firstly they wanted the Empire to fail. Desperatly. (There seemingly was even a book, involving a overrunned Middenheim) Which didn't work out. In fact, the Forces of Chaos were halted by the very beginning, by game results. Until GW decided, to make the Steam Tank at Kursk having an malfunction, so he can not fight anymore. (And they would repeat that multiple times, giving Chaos a "Deus Ex Machina" effect, to take strong defended keeps. Kursk was just a small town with militia and a steam tank nearby). Even more so, although sometimes Chaos scored victories, it became appearant, that the Empire hat much more momentum in their favor. GW however wanted the Siege phase, so they opened it up anyway. Despite Chaos according to the results was in a deadlock. Now the siege phase wasn't particulary successful either, with chaos being worn out and not even making it to the walls according to played results. In the end they gave the players a result nobody liked, because it essentially made the entire campaign pointless. They decided, that Archaon did make it to Middenheim, with the Empire barely holding up, with Karl Franz's reliefarmy arriving in time. (Ololol. They had roads and no risistence upwards. They should have been already waiting the moment the first chaos barbarians were sighted), and even then the Empire was losing, with Valten being mortally wounded... until Girmgork showed up, beat the shit of Archaon, for some reason sparing his life, and then going away. In the end, Chaos has devastated the northern Empire, and Archaon retreated to the Brass Fortress..., making the campaign a phyrric victory for the Empire, and Chaos "winning" on the same time since the Empire is devastated, and Archaon, who isn't killed by the chaosgods for his massive failure is still sitting around inside the Empire. What were people playing for, if GW fixes the results as they want it? The results were massivly unpopular, because GW turned a clear defender victory into some inconclusive shit, even being a de facto lose. Which caused GW to pull the hard reset, and just cutting the entire crap.

[@renatofornaroli]

Really good points you made. Personally I agree with all of them, I would have put more focus on the absence of a clear vision/map on how the Realms are built, but they are improving on that. Many cities are coming alive and we understand better how all different factions interact with each other. But we are still far away from the Grom and his Waagh moving all the way to Altdorf and being able to recite by memory all cities along the way to Marienburg or the capital or to Ulthuan... Personally I like the lore behind the Stormcasts and I appreciate it more now that they are becoming less and less the "Good guys" while exterminating people with diseases instead of finding a way to cure them, but I'm more into classic fantasy role and between the Sigmarite armours and the steam-powered Kharadron vessels I was a bit disappointed by the lack of Wood Elves and similar... So now with the return of Morathi and some more classic fantasy coming to the table (Sea Aelves where are you?) I'm totally hooked up by AoS!!! Great channel, and great insight as always!

[@ARescueToaster]

I remember a lot of people complaining that Chaos would (in Fantasy) never win, even when they had drastic advantages, and I can see why GW never had Chaos win - it would turn Fantasy on it's head. Having Chaos lose meant they could maintain the status quo, keep selling models and new editions of army books.. but that also meant almost nothing ever changed in the story. Age of SIgmar was something that needed to happen to advance the story, and while I'm first among those who say it could have been handled a lot better, the way I see it, they did it the way they did so they could actually make staggering changes in the story without having it dramatically effecting everything in the one world of Fantasy - it just needed to happen one time with the End Times. It's like most reoccurring shows or movies, like the new wave of super hero movies and shows for instance. The main character is always put in perilous danger, but they ALWAYS make it out alive and without lasting injury. That's incredibly boring because I can tell you what's going to happen before the movie even begins. Movies like Logan, where the main character doesn't do so well, that makes the movie and the story elements have a lot more impact.

[@Renfield286]

As someone who started in 4th/5th and felt 6th was the pinnacle (herohammer is my gold) I felt that 7th & 8th were geared towards the tournament players, and the model moved too far towards the pay to win model. "oh you want to win this tourney, buy the latest army" it got to a point where they started to run out of armies that were commercially viable which is why it ground to a halt, the barrier for entry was far too high in both cash and experience. I really like AoS, the narrative system allows for playing new scenarios as well as picking up The Grudge of Drong or Idol of Gork and playing them and them still feeling the same as they did. Balance is an illusion, but i am in favour of marketing the rule systems as wide as possible. because more opponents is good. I still find fantasy players thumming their noses "oh AoS is S***" "oh, have you played it" "no, I couldn't balance it" "right so you've not looked at it in the past 2 years+ then?" or you get people who love to move blocks of wood around the field so play 9th age or kings of war. its not the kind of system I enjoy personally.

[@keithrimer8415]

You touched on a very very important point. When GW/FW don’t continue to support and update armies (dark eldar for example...) then they don’t get purchased as much because there isn’t anything new to buy/build/paint.

[@motivatedsonofsparda3646]

Yes, its bad. Like really bad. Like I hate it from the bottom of my very being and I genuinely have nothing good to say about Age of Because the plot demands it. Seriously, I have nothing good to say about it. I mean I like Slaanesh and they, for all intense and purposes, killed off Slaanesh. Yea, yea Slaanesh is not dead he/she/it is trapped somewhere yada yada ya. Slaanesh is dead, replaced by Nurgel 2.0 because plague and rot is more family friendly then tits and ass. And can GW just drop the family friendly crap? Its never gonna happen, Warhammer is not family friendly. Malekith is my favorite character in Warhammer FANTASY and in Age of Bad Storytelling they ruined his character and made him into some god creature thing. Malekith was robed of all that made him interesting, but now he is BIGGERER AND BETTERER AND THE KIDIS LOVE THAT RIGHT. HE IS NOW A HALF DARK ELF HALF DRAGON GOD THING THAT RULES THE LAND OF SHADOWS, cue Linkin Park I TRIED SO HARD AND GOT SO FAR. Not gonna lie Malekith was always edgy, but this is just hilarious. And speaking of BIGGERER AND BETTERER, Sigmarines. They are Space Marines in Fantasy, just admit it and lets move on. No, I do not care about small differences, they are Space Marines aka Sigmarines. Look, I get it, humans were and lets be honest boring in Fantasy. I mean compare them to...............ANYONE. Even the characters were better in other factions, Karl Franz is cool, but he is one good character in an Ocean of BORING. However, SPACE MARINES? REALLY? You could have done anything other then that. Why not make a new Human Empire with some cool Knights? And ok, I can accept it, I even understand the heavy HEAVY REALLY FUCKING HEAVY promotion of The Sigmarines, but and this is a BIG BUT did GW have to take heavy inspiration from Ultra Marines? I am willing to bet that Sigmarines would not be this hated if they were inspired by Blood Angels or ANY OTHER LEGION OR CHAPTER FROM 40K. As a 40K fan let me tell you one thing, WE HATE THE FUCKING SMURFS. FUCK THE MARY SUE MARINES. And its not enough they are perfect in 40K now they are perfect in Fantasy. GREAT STORY TELLING. And can all of you Age of Sigmar fans stop say they are not Space Marines? A lot of hate they get is because you do not want to admit they are Fantasy Space Marines. They are NO DIFFERENT then Space Marines other then they have EVEN MORE PLOT ARMOR. And for fucks sake can GW, at the very least, make them interesting characters? I mean they are boring as dirt. Even the Space Smurfs have one or two interesting characters. So yea, nothing good about Age of Fuck the fans. And Archeon is not a good character let alone a good antagonist, the character makes no sense. I did say they were gonna do something stupid with Morathi and The Dark Elves and to my shock I............. was right. For fucks sake. If I have to point out something good about Age of Wider demographic then I would have to say........................... the models look good. Does that count? And.....................eh............................................its kinda cool to see some Norse mythology, I guess. That is the best I can think say about Age of This joke is getting old. In conclusion if you like it for the love of God tell me why because I am interested and for me it sucks. The only reason I watch these videos is because I wanna follow the ,,lore,, every now and again in hope that it will get better.

[@Sandroman1999]

Games Workshop has probably seen the light and are dropping the whole trying to be family friendly. The current narrative (Malign Portents) is taking a lot darker turn than the narrative before it, and the new Daughters of Khaine is a great step to the right direction in my opinion. And there are rumours that Slaanesh is really coming back, combined with new Slaaneshi models.

[@motivatedsonofsparda3646]

Yea I am not holding my breath for Slaanesh anymore. The Malign Portents, what does that even mean, was eh ok I guess. I did not make me go WOW THAT IS SO COOL. If GW is going with this new story then please do not mention Fantasy anymore. I do not wanna be reminded of a better world. And The Daughters of Khaine stuff is so dumb. Thanks GW, you ruined my favorite faction in Fantasy. Great. I mean the distrustful Dark Elves put their faith in a woman who is a known manipulator. Explain the logic. Please. Also do you know the old lore? Morathi and The Daughters of Khaine did not exactly get along. Long story short, it makes no sense. And where the fuck is like most of the Dark Elf army? Harganeth Executioners? Black Guard? Beast Masters? Are the Dark Elves gonna have 2 factions now? WHY? Also where the fuck is Malekith? And is Morathi gonna fight her son? There is only one reason Morathi would betray Malekith and it is not power, Malekith is the only person Morathi would not betray. Yea, not that great of a story in my opinion.

[@thelordkragan1888]

Wow, could you, like please, make shit up a bit more? >Slaanesh is dead. No. We actually have a PoV of him in Malign portents and DoK outright states that Morathi botched the spell when she rigged the scales of tribute in her favour and the bindings that hold the Dark prince are beginning to collapse by now (though this is not an entirely new concept, Slaanesh intervening and him begining to set itself free are things that date as back as Shadows over Hammerhal and the early Realmgate Wars). Him being removed was never the case and instead opening an overall arc for the setting. Then again, that would have required a bit of effort to check things out. >Malekith is a half dragon. Except no, he didn't fuse with his dragon. Hell, to begin with, he doesn't even have a definite form by now. But that would have required for you to arse yourself and try to read. >Smurfs. Except the Hammers of Sigmar have little in common with the smurfs, swapped colour palette aside, since they are the first of the hosts and are actually a brash bunch of former guerrilla fighters. Discipline is actually an issue for them, unlike the smurfs. And that's just beginning to look at one of the main Hosts, leaving things like the Hallowed Knights (mix Black Templars with Grey knights, with quite a few twists of their own) or the Astral Templars (AKA: knights of the Wolf). But I guess ... Yeah, I barely know why I bother. You're just going by the memes. And flash news: the new cult of Khaine, one of the new flavours of knife ears, is actually Age of Sigmar's equivalent of Scientology: it's all a hoax that Morathi set herself up so as to syphon the faith in Khaine (who COULD be resurrected... if it weren't for here) for her to become an actual goddess. It's not the original cult.

[@motivatedsonofsparda3646]

Wow. That was autistic. Ok. Let me try and explain this calmly and in more detail. I did not mean Slanesh is DEAD dead. I mean Slaanesh is removed from the story because GW wants to go family friendly. And for some reason war, plague and autism are more family friendly then a little bit of tits and ass. You could have read what I said like a good boy/girl/thing, but you did not, instead you started screaching. As for Malekith, any time I look up Malekith in regards to Age of SHITmar all I get is half dragon half dark elf. Oh and his name is now Molarion or something like that. Stupid change. And do not get me started about how they changed the Flames of Asurion bit with him, cuz that one pissed me off good. But lets go to the Sigmarines. They are Ultra Smurfs in Fantasy in every possible way, and I am not just talking about the color pallet. The Smurfs and Sigmarines are dadys good boys that can do nothing wrong and can do EVERYTHING better then anyone else aka Mary Sue army. Sure they have some other types, like the dudes that killed of a village, real hard core shit there, but THAT JUST MAKES THEM SPACE MARINES......... IN FANTASY aka SIGMARINES. Just admit it and move on. You can have your poster boys, I do not give a shit. My problem is GW fucking up stuff that was in Fantasy. Like, for example, The Cult of Khain following a woman who they hate, and the reason they hate her is because SHE DID NOT WANT TO SHARE HER SECRETS WITH THEM AND SO THEY CREATED AN ORDER DEVOTED TO KHAINE TO GET THE PRAISE OF HER SON AND TO SPITE HER. Great story telling. REALLY GOOD. The Sandro guy was at least nice and was not a little shit. I wish he had said why he likes Age of PLOT REASONS, because I am interested why somebody would prefer it over Warhammer Fantasy. As for you, I could not give a shit what a fanboy has to say about Age of House Rules.

[@motivatedsonofsparda3646]

OK. Wow, that was so condescending I am, honestly impressed. Look. I hate Age of SHITmar, you like it for whatever screaching reason. In fact, a lot of people do not like Age of SHITmar. The memes Age of SHITmar and Age of House Rules would not be as popular if people did not hate it. GW killed of a world and lore we liked. Can you understand a little why we may hate it from the very core of our being? Its ok, I know some people have slower thought processes and it takes a while to understand, but maybe our hate is justified. MAYBE? And I am not going back to the points mentioned before, you say tometo I say tomato. Who cares? My points still stand. GW hates Slaanesh, Malekiths story and character are ruined and Sigmarines are Mary Sues. And the Daughters of Khain story makes no sense whatsoever. And guess what? Acting like a little shit is not gonna make people see your point. People are looking at you and saying:,,WOW, what a little shit. This is who is now playing the game we once loved. Good job GW.,, Yea, learn to talk to people properly and people will talk to you properly. And do not start making moronic arguments with people because they do not have the same opinion as you. OH NO SOME GUY ON THE INTERNET HATES WHAT I LIKE is not gona get you far. Unless you are a troll. If you are good bait. Nice job. If you are not, fuck of. I hate Shitmar you like it. Great, whatever. Move on.

[@OwllLight]

I want to love this game I want to hop in and play a miniature game with this kind of lineage behind it but I just can't. I occasionally have moments I am like "yeah gonna dive in" but then so much of what I hate about it shows its head and ruins it, and what I think it really boils down too is the fluff, cause the story can get me hooked into something, and to be blunt, I find the story kind of dull, boring even. I try to read some of the books and it just comes across as generic and lacks any form of grounding that could make it interesting. I heard somewhere one reason they did such a dramatic shift could have been they wanted to get away from the troupes of Tolkien Fantasy, if so they drove headlong into a whole new set of worse troupes of epic fantasy.

[@theadtheogrekiller5629]

Harrison Collins I know how you feel, the original warhammer is probably the second or third biggest contributor to these kind of settings after Tolkien who is undoubtedly the biggest contributor as they basicly created it. But I do think the writing is pretty good and the new factions are actually pretty amazing! Also in a rules perspective it’s a lot cleaner and I think better at showing how certain factions function in a real battle, for example magic is pretty much gutted compared to the crazy wizarding people did in fantasy, yet if you play tzeentch arcanites you can easily recreate even crazier magic phases using their special rules and destiny dice. It’s like how mine craft is a super simple game, but because of that it’s super easy to mod and has some amazing mods

[@jprior1427]

Harrison Collins As most people will defend but everything is honestly getting better. Im reading Hammerhall a short story set in one of the cities of free people and its great getting to know normal men and women (and dwarfs and elves) not just the big larger then life characters. And seeing how the city works with trade and politics

[@Zakon673]

The problem with how they chose to move the story forward is that it's the almost polar opposite of what came before it. It is the definition of high fantasy, with multiple planes of existence and the factions being dedicated to the primal concepts of order, chaos, death and destruction. Everything is big and over-the-top. It's no longer about conflicts on a world between squabbling groups of relatable mortal armies. Big, earth-shattering things happened in the old setting as well, but they were comparatively rare. That image at 28:37 doesn't look like it belongs in the Warhammer Fantasy universe. This kind of thing has its place in fantasy. Stuff like the Gith in Forgotten Realms, who live on a gothic city built upon the corpse of a dead god and travel around the astral plane on flying ships. It's freaking awesome. But the majority of people seem to prefer more down-to-earth events, stuff you could see happen in Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones. It's more easily approachable and relatable. And it becomes really hard to swallow if you have a setting with decades of history of being gritty and relatable then turn it into what it's become. Dungeons & Dragons also kind of went through this with 4th Edition. Now people hate 4e a lot for reasons which I find nonsensical (claims that it hampered roleplaying, or that it played like an MMO, neither of which are true). The core rules of the game made for an exciting and engaging, deeply tactical battle system. But what I am realizing about it in retrospect thanks to Age of Sigmar is that it was very high fantasy right from the first level. You're trying to play local heroes while using incredibly exotic-sounding attacks, and it just clashes in a bad way. It's just not what most people want out of fantasy. They're going to see things like that city or that battle over a gate between planes of existence and just stop caring, however good the lore behind it may be. It was commendable of them to make the rules easier to absorb and free to everyone, and reduce the model count needed to play the game. If they had done that without taking a sledgehammer to the setting and turning it into something almost unrecognizable that doesn't even come close to capturing the appeal of the original, I think Age of Sigmar would have been much better received.

[@shellymcmurrie]

When I first looked into AoS I found what they had done to the Empire as an army to be so catastrophic that I folded my Empire army into my Astra Militarum (four full platoons of infantry appeared after a LOT of conversion) and I was so disheartened that my two Crusade Cases of Greenskins have never seen an AoS table. I found the lore confusing and the reason for fighting anymore elusive - I found disappearance of the Bretonnians and Tomb Kings absolutely mystifying and not in a good way and I didn't appreciate what had happened to the mortal Chaos army. Then the Stormcast - I didn't hate them at all, I just wondered why we needed to destroy the two main human factions as playable factions in order to have them (especially when you now consider that Primaris didn't mean the end of Space Marines or Astra Militarum). While I disagree with a lot of your conclusions, I found your thoughts interesting and it's given me a) resolve to actually play AoS and b) made me want to collect Stormcast... Damn you! :p

[@Kitetsu]

The game is fun. Stormcast are far more interesting than people give them credit for. And I would like to know what you disagree with. It sounds like you have some interesting experiences over the years. If you want to share some of them with me then send me a message on Facebook or Twitter. Iv been planning a video about female Warhammer fans for a long time and i have had some good responses so far but I need more.

[@shellymcmurrie]

I went back and listened to your video again so that I could be clearer :) - Things I didn't agree with or thought were simply incorrect conclusions: Movie characters being killed off vs whole factions disappearing is a false equivalence - factions are nations in our mind, not a single gunslinger or swashbuckler. The efforts, hopes, dreams, grudges, setbacks and triumphs of a people were encapsulated in the history of the Old World's factions and much of that just got tossed because the rules were bloated and the Space Marines were selling more. I think and always did think that WFB's rules were awful, but I put up with them for the story. That WFB is in the past and that rendering it meaningless is a valid feeling if you collected most of the factions - because the thing you were fighting for - your homeland and people and reason for being - is gone. Just personally for me, WFB was a huge part of my social life and hobby time and seeing the Old World just gone (no matter how well people thought it was written) was like watching a national treasure being burnt down to me. A real shock of grief - not a wistful nostalgia or a longing for what was but shock at what was unnecessary and deliberate vandalism of a system that certainly needed fixing, but not collapsing in on itself. There were other ways to take a bold step forwards. It never needed to end the Old World - borders could move, factions could rise, gods could return - it's good storytelling. Ripping everything up and starting again gives everything a gloss of impermanence and making it up as we go instead of what we had. Time won't fix that either - twenty years could go by but how many will emotionally connect to the same deep level knowing that GW just tore everything up once before and so might do it again? Previously, Chaos won the battles but the war continued because good people struggled - Chaos winning in the end was just a massive injection of ashen hopelessness - that's bad story telling. The gods of order could have been re-introduced without the wholesale destruction of decades of building history, shared memory and lore - GW did this with the Squats instead of re-working them into something better, losing a faction that to this day still has fans. As for female gamers I will say that seeing more female models has made me feel more represented. I didn't think that it would, and it's a strange feeling to describe - but feeling included in something that I've been doing since 1995/6 was a wonderful feeling. I'm talking specifically when I saw Darkoath Warqueen Marakarr Blood-Sky and Valkia the Bloody. If men can be warriors in a setting suffused with magic and fate and do things that nobody should rightly be able to do, then having women do the same just felt good. And yes, I wish there were female Space Marines (and no, I don't care that the limits of human biology might have a bearing when a daemon made of anger and magic with a fist the size of a man's chest can appear and smash a battle-tank in two; discussions around how much weight a real life woman can carry at a run through a desert have little bearing. Making Space Marines be all-male reinforces more social negatives than it was perhaps intended to [read a KZbin comment thread on the matter] and simply excludes women from the hobby by dint of removing them from the story of humanity's struggle.) Representation matters - that's why I'd love to collect an all female army in AoS and not have to collect Daughters of Khaine - I'd love there to be female Space Marines and not just nuns with guns, even though I'm totally getting an army of them when the plastics come out. I'd love there to be options, in short. I'm not talking about having a massive discussion on whether Astra Militarum should include women - I'm saying that the fluff says it does so let's see it. I'm not saying Space Marines need altering to fit some "feminist agenda", I'm saying that a whole chapter of female Space Marines is totally doable given how they can just create Primaris out of nowhere - if you don't like them, don't buy them?.. ...I'm not saying that Sisters of Battle are less-than Space Marines because they don't have genetic enhancements; in many ways they are greater than Space Marines because they're only human. But they'll never have the spotlight the same as the stars of the show. I mean, Stormcast have female models? One final point on female Space Marines. I read a lot of people saying that "you can't just overturn decades of established faction lore" for x or y reason. Hm. Forgetting the End Times, major changes to decades-long established lore can and do happen. I haven't been fully immersed in the scene for a while now, but can remember off the top of my head: Cadia fell. Primaris appeared. Rough Riders were written out of the codex because "there are currently no models" [yet Chaos Cultists remain and have almost never had official models]. Orks went from having green plant blood to red blood and that had to be retconned. The Tau Empire just appeared overnight. Adeptus Custodes ventured from Terra in offensive operations. Chaos Space Marines got split into several armies with standalone codexes. Vampire Counts emerged with different Houses instead of just Christopher Lee tribute acts. Space Wolves can ride wolves into battle now (because reasons). And more besides if I started to actually look. The lore changes over time, in big ways as well as small ones. Adding something is never as problematic as taking it away (the Tau passed me by so I have never bought them, but getting rid of the Old World... ...see above). If you don't like a new thing, don't buy it? If GW made female Space Marines possible, it wouldn't threaten the masculinity of super soldiers in the current ranks of the Space Marines, it would just add another dimension to humanity's losing battle against the heretics, daemons and xenos out there trying to snuff them out.

[@micke1888]

I am going to start an age of Sigmar army soon and I really loved Warhammer Fantasy. But I really like the new rules, armies and other things. The only thing I have a problem with is that they took away some armies. I would like to see some armies and lords come back from fantasy

[@bigdave4859]

My first tester game of AOS was fun and I thought I would get into the game regardless of the lack of balance and lore. My second game ended that when my opponent put down 4 greater daemons and 6 Daemon Princes. Needless to say that my night goblins didn't do well. I know that you said in the video that history of the old world is relevant but I have to disagree. The setting is gone, most characters are gone, and most of all the individual flavour of the old world is gone. I feel it's the "Joey" to fantasy's "friends." Please don't get me wrong and I don't want to offend anyone but the new models, beautiful though they are, aren't enough to pique my interest. After fantasy I started playing Kings of War instead and I am much happier with that system. Is AOS terrible? No it isn't. Far from it and i'm sure it will go strength to strength. Maybe I will try again in a few years when all of the factions are released. A side note - I spent £150 starting a tomb kings army roughly 4 months before their squatting. That pissed me off massively.

[@frohammfrohamm602]

Gotrek and Felix are gonna be great in AoS. Looking forwards to the audio book and possible miniatures. Missed the last castings, but will definitely invest in them this time around. Now if Snorri makes a cameo, that'd be grand.

[@CarburetorThompson]

I love age of Sigmar. It got me back into the hobby. Truth be told I’ve never been as excited about wargaming before I got into it. I juts recently started collecting some Stormcast eternals and not only are the sculpts awesome, but they are ten times more fun to paint then any space marine ever was. The game is a lot better for beginners and I’m thankful for that as a few friends of mine have started playing because of that.

[@cory8037]

I don’t know anything about Fantasy or AoS. I just enjoy the Total War games and they are my first introduction to Warhammer in general. I will be looking into painting my first models tomorrow to get into a new hobby.

[@kimarous]

I'm relatively new to the Warhammer setting, as I kept my distance out of the assumption that my hometown was "too small scale" to warrant a GW store and/or have a miniature gaming community. Sometime in August last year, I found that I was wrong and that one such store is just outside the bus-stop home from my then-new job. As such, I've had a resurgent interest in the series, both on the 40k and Fantasy fronts. I kept my distance from Age of Sigmar because of online pressure and negativity, but... oh, irony, on the very night I open my mouth and start espousing my hearsay bashing in the store, I decided to browse the AoS part of GW's e-store and fell in love. While I respect W.Fantasy's lore and understand the frustration from a botched release (as admitted by the local store guys), I share the opinion that Age of Sigmar is just young and still building itself up. I'm excited to see what the sealed chambers of the Stormcast Eternals are going to be. I'm curious to see where the Malign Portents are going. Idoneth Deepkin are coming soon and I'm interested to see where that goes. And on a lesser note, while AoS lacks the concrete depth of Fantasy, it allows for greater freedom of customization and making up one's own stories, as opposed to... say... making up new Empire counts in Fantasy that contrast with the established lore.

[@SSVjoker]

Honestly, the only reason for AoS to exist is to warn GW what could happen if they aren't careful with the writing quality of 40k. Fantasy is dead, which makes me sad, but even trying to read AoS just makes my head ache. It feels like it was written by two people comparing d*ck sizes, and not just with power levels, but the whole story

[@r4tt583]

I LOVE age of sigmar but the only thing that never made any sort of sence to me is why couldn't have gw made a toughness to strength like in 40k. It just does not make sence that a gobo with a sharp stick can wound a carnasoar with the same effort that (for example) Negash can with a laser beam of death that in lore blasts the life out of you.......

[@12neef]

Solomon Zhukovskiy in 8th ed 40k guardsman can wound knights and primarchs. It makes every unit usable not just there to hold up a unit. Or just hold an objective. They can yound it but probably not kill it. Im sure a gobbo most likely wouldnt wound it on its own. Much less kill it unless it has only one wound and the opponent roles poorly.

[@r4tt583]

What I mean is more about the wound and hit not really being affected by armor (other thain resist rend and mortal wounds)

[@leebyrne7064]

I really feel you are speaking pro AOS, I just think AOS is just so different, it plays different and has a different feel to it. I think why everyone is so pissed is that they are trying to sell them as the same game and world. I get a feeling of lord of the rings world when i think of fantasy, but when i think of AOS it seem more like HEMAN. Just completely different.

[@davelee6002]

regarding AOS setting being grounded and compelling... Sure they've spelled out ways in which the aos setting connects to the past, but if a story writer was instructed to completely reboot the setting and start a new unrelated story using the same factions, you couldn't get anything more egregious than AOS. the sheer number of ungainly and incredible story mechanisms used to explain why such and such did what when and how, is just silly and childish. Fantasy and sci fi tastes have evolved past Flash Gordon, but we have a regression here.

[@beastmendelegate1946]

As it turns out, the answer is no. The game is awesome.

[@Pelagion98]

I recently got into Warhammer by trying out Total War and Vermintide and I fell in love with the world. As a long-time fan of Warcraft, this felt both familiar and new at the same time. So it was to a great dismay that as I started watching lore videos and reading up on events, I learned that End Times was a thing and that this franchise that was fresh for me was long dead with an unsatisfying end, akin to Game of Thrones, and the sequel had absolutely no appeal to me visually or narratively.

[@peadarmc91]

After many years of being away from the tabletop miniature wargamming scene (missing out on 8th edition and the end times etc) I decided I'd go back to Fantasy and collect/build the Bretonnian army as they're the only army that appeal to me because they seem interesting to paint. I wont be playing much as tabletop wargaming isn't very accessible where I live... So I come back to see that the only army I'm interested in is redundant?

[@jordanreeseyre]

Im one of those guys who loves the fantasy lore & bought up the BL books more than the models. When AoS came out, my view was coloured by the knowledge that there'd be no more stories coming out of that old setting. It seems AoS came with some decent characters & grand scale narrative but no real sense of there being a distinct world beyond the battlefield that the models inhabited. Im glad to hear that the lore over the last couple of years has been improving & I might pick up a book sometime to really get a feel for this new setting.

[@Sylrissa]

Putting aside how much more expensive WHFB was according to the comments I've read below. I personally find the lore of AoS so much more fascinating and engaging with the various realms of life/death/light and shadow etc being like the branches of Yggdrasil with mythical heroes and demigods and deities. Maybe it's just cause I was raised on the stories of folklore and mythology, but that stuff has me utterly hooked. It's a shame a game and world other people enjoyed got destroyed and I sympathize with them, but I can only give my personal viewpoint and also look at the business side of things, it'll be interesting to look back doing a post-mortem on AoS when it reaches 10 years old and see if it continues to grow or is even as successful as it is now, it'll show if they made the right decision from a company standpoint.

[@briancline7349]

I hear you on most of what you’re saying and I’m someone who initially disliked AoS but now have come around a lot and am considering starting an army, Lumineth, but I was real put off by how small their range is... so many Lumineth armies will be basically the same, there is so little room for list diversity. I’m fine with smaller and more specialized factions when compared to fantasy but AoS seems to have gone much too small... it’s almost ridiculous in some cases when new factions aren’t much more diverse than the Harlequins in 40k. It seems lazy and dumb since they’ve made so many Stormcast models. So how would you respond to someone like me who is most put off by that? Getting the modern and more snazzy models of the new AoS armies is appealing, but most of the AoS armies that have a large enough range to allow for strategic depth in list building and to allow for diversity in the army lists you see taken are factions that use mostly old Fantasy models. How do you deal with this issue and not letting it bother you?

[@xavierc7352]

Also if you like witch hunter stories, I recommend reading "The Witch Takers" www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-age-of-sigmar/quick-reads/the-witch-takers-eshort.html C L Werner is going to write a full novel about the two witch hunters in this story later on. Also it's just a really good story.

[@nicktrojano6092]

I stopped the hobby prior to the end of fantasy. I didn't like the magic phase, initiative, or turn order. I didn't like the stats and how they worked, The difference between the values of a dice-roll fall on a curve, meaning the difference between a 5+ and 6+ is less then the difference between a 4+ and a 5+. When you think about all the different stats fantasy used and consider that those values aren't 'linear', it becomes impossible to assign a point value that will zero-out with more than one other unit. I can balance two units with two different statlines, but as soon as I introduce a third unit then one of the original two is skewed against it. AoS managed to get around this (in my opinion) by: -Reducing the number of stats used and making 'special rules' synergetic and situational and powerful. -Requiring that models be bought in fixed increments (with minimum and maximums) gives the maths more reliable averages. -Turn-order-roll-offs put more randomness into the mechanics. Battleshock and bravery are more gentle than leadership used to be. -'Save' is simpler than 'armor save', since 'save' can mean armor, evasion, magic, etc -Magic is now reasonable and limited, with d3 wounds as the basic damage output and d6 wounds being the highest tier.Magic is probably the biggest improvement of AoS, since 'dwellers below' and 'winds of death' can no longer be cast with 'irresistible force' and take away your entire elf army without recourse. Really the best thing about fantasy was the setting. I loved the unique mix of 'Conan the Barbarian' and Tolkien. I didn't like the AoS setting at first because I thought the 'realms' were too abstract, but now I know its a 'sandbox' intended to encourage the hobbyist to make their models more their own. Great discussion video!

[@Kitetsu]

Good thoughts there. Glad you enjoyed the video 😃😃 yer the game is much more streamlined and less convoluted now. Hopefully the continual updates will keep things flowing smoothly and nicely balanced too

[@nalrashido]

Nick Trojano fantasy, AoS and 40k have mixes of Robert E Howard, Tolkien, Moorcock and Lovecraft.

[@josephjustice4553]

Have you had a look at KOW? It's really the most balanced wargame out there...and its the old fantasy setting you love.

[@CousinsWarItalia]

In my humble opinion AOS is much more easy and fun than Fantasy, but Fantasy has the better lore. The secret? playing AOS thinking fantasy lore ;) Cousins' War Italia

[@LeonValenti]

I like AoS! I think the game itself is healthy now after the handbooks. The lore has room to grow in the years to come, even if it's still not completely up and running now... but that's to be expected because it's still fairly new. I'm also enjoying the boxed games set in this universe most of all. Silver Tower and Shadespire are so fun to play, which makes the AoS content coming out of GW the best for me right now.