Is Cersei the Mad King's daughter?

[@Degenevesting]

The biggest irony of ASOIAF is that Tyrion is the perfect candidate to be the Lannister heir. If Tywin had seen the value of Tyrion, and embraced him in his plans, then I don’t think they would have failed. Tyrion would bring back the family wealth, through action he would restore their honour, and the evils of his sister could have become evermore restrained.

[@hez859]

This. If the Lannister siblings shared he same bond as the Starks for instance they would have beaten everyone in my opinion.

[@capthappy8884]

Yes, but I always felt that if tywin had, at any point, actually appreciated tyrion, tyrion doesn't become tyrion!😉 perhaps he doesn't cultivate the same character traits that made him as potent as he is with even the slightest genuine validation of tywin. Just how I simplify the possibilities in my own head I guess.

[@hez859]

@@capthappy8884 excellent point but even as a kid he was a vivacious reader. Tyrion becoming Tyrion is Tyrion's undoing lol. He was so hell bent on emulating Tywinn and wanting validation from him he made enemies out of powerful people (cersei, pycelle etc) so I still think he still would have had the smarts and political savvy just farrrrr less baggage that wouldn't have been his undoing

[@MegaKnight2012]

Pride goeth before a fall. Tywin couldn't get past his own wounded pride to value Tyrion

[@derykhenderson5187]

Well no. He actually is the Mad Kings son by Johanna. This is why Tywin gave her Moon Tea and he came out messed up and killed her. Tywin projects his guilt onto Tyrion and views their relationship as a continuation of his relationship with Aeryes. This amongst other things answers all questions regarding Robert's rebellion. You understand that Aeryes is Tyrion if he didn't have the suffering of being a dwarf and all that and was given power over Tywin. A lot changes but the core of who he is is the same Both of them wanted to kill everyone in Kings landing when the public turned on the,

[@butcherofblaviken1619]

Imagine Jaime and Cersey being the mad king's offspring and Tyrion the only true son of Tywin. Yet Tywin refused him The Casterly Rock, which as it happens is Tyrion's by rights. Also that makes both brothers kinslayers and "kingslayers". What an irony. Edt: By the way if Jaime is Aerys' son means he obeyed the mad king's command to bring him his father's head. Which makes him OATHKEEPER lol.

[@alabaster275]

Omg that would be hilarious and yet so dark, technically he never broke his vows since he followed the king’s orders 😂

[@Force-Multiplier]

the "Oathkeeper" part is just epic Geralt 🤣 I hope this becomes true my favorite ASOIAF theory by far

[@butcherofblaviken1619]

@@Force-Multiplier yep mine too, in fact I really hope Tyrion will become the Lord of Casterly Rock. For there always must be a Lannister in the Rock.

[@MagnaMater2]

Yes, this is perfect irony - I was convinced the moment I read of Cersei burning down the Tower of the Hand, and it being described from Jaime's perspective. And there was the part of him crossing the dragon-mosaik beneath the Tower of the Hand, where he thought that the Dragon would still get him. That was so 'obvious' an in between the lines way, just like Jon thinking Jaime looking more like a King than Robert. That route is a secret way for the men of the Keep to their lovers - and there is a Dragon-Mosaic, Jaime and Tyrion stood upon. To me this is as obvious as the 'Kings - hiding beneath the snow' early in the book.

[@MusMasi]

ts possible that Cersei could be the Mad Kings and Jaime is Tywins, they come from different eggs, its really weird but there have been twins before who were half siblings, kind of gross though, same thing often happens with kittens.

[@MrSebaleme]

In the books, jaime and Cercei are definitly real twins. They were way too much alike during childhood to have different father. Their kins could not tell them apart until puberty.

[@soxpeewee]

They are fraternal twins because otherwise they'd be the same gender. It's possible to have twins by different fathers though rare. Additionally, fraternal twins or even siblings in general can be almost identical. Although I doubt they were that identical and more so coddled into being allowed to "swap" identities. I very much doubt Aerys is Cersei's father. I feel like she would have been wed to Rhaegar or Aerys at a young age because Aerys was way into Alabama Weddings.

[@TitusAnjohnicus]

Not quite on point I appreciate but I like the notion that Jamie and Tyrion have both committed patricide. It is good when brothers share a hobby, it promotes familial harmony.

[@lalywindland5764]

Lol, true ! The Borgias agree ! Although the Borgias loved their mother and Pope-father because they always spoiled them, they just committed incest and brother killed brother over both their affairs with a sister--in-law.... loving family !

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

@@lalywindland5764 Knowing GRRM's love of alluding to real historical events and people in his work, I've always suspected that Jaime and Cersei were influenced by the stories of Cesare and Lucretia Borgia...

[@LandAWanderlust]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@onyedikachukwumiracle]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@JacobGrim]

😂

[@LillyAnarkitty]

The main piece of evidence against Tyrion being a Targaryen is the fact that Tywin thinks that he is. Conversely, the main piece of evidence that Cersei and Jaime are Targs is the fact that Tywin insists on treating them as his true children. With GRRM, it’s always about what makes for the best story.

[@mementomori771]

More of geroge just really likes rug pulls so if something is ever directly said out loud like an action someone is going to take it's always gonna be interrupted somehow its very repetitive especially in later Cersei chapters or Danny chapters

[@stanleytweedle1897]

There is a lot more evidence and the theme of the story makes a lot more sense. George is writing about the human condition and cycles of history. Tyrion is Ayres with Tywin's childhood environment. Jamie is Tywin with Ayres's Childhood environment. Rob is also Ned's older brother. Arya is Lieana. John is Rheagar who grew up hard. Cerci is Joanna which implies Johanna was kind of a whore which explains Tywin's meltdowns. Gendry is Robert if he got his wish to just be a soldier. Ect. Ect. I'd explain more and this opens up an entirely new dimension of the book but most people who I explain this to can't grasp this turn out to be smoothbrains who try to shame me into believing the biggest problem with Season 8 was lack of splosions and bobbies so it's usually a wasted effort post.

[@queenxx1690]

also Aerys wanted twins be brought to King's Landing after they been born because he wanted to see them for some reason and we know Aerys was obsessed with Joanna Lannister and that why Rhaella send her away

[@stanleytweedle1897]

@@queenxx1690 Yes. It's called hostages. It's a recurring theme. Just like Naming Jamie to the Kings Guard gave Aerys a hostage while forcing Tywin to either admit Tyrion was not his and that he was cucked or hand over Casterly Rock to his son, not Tywin's. It's amazing how so many people don't see this even when it's directly pointed out to them.

[@capysarah]

​@stanleytweedle1897 that was a great explanation--aside from the whole extra paragraph you spent patting yourself on the back for being smart. You had us in the first half, not gonna lie.

[@cb-7422]

What if EVERYONE’S a secret Targ and there’s just a great big free-for-all for the throne.. That’s still a better story than Season 8 😂😂

[@TheGoodLuc]

🤣

[@Brickwinds]

That's kind of the whole point. George loves to break archetypes. The story is easy and straightforward if there is one single good claim to the throne. But what if there are Targaryen's hidden everywhere? That's basically the philosophical underpinning's of the Dance of the Dragon's.

[@tereza1959]

There are so many secret targaryens in this fandom that this is almost the case, i wouldn't be surprised if someone said Ned Stark is a secret targaryen at this point 😂

[@JLchevz]

Not everyone is, maybe Aegon isn't, and it doesn't matter that Cersei and Jaime could be, we're not gonna get a Targaryen family get together explicitly, it's just a cool idea

[@Lily_of_the_Forest]

Well, the Targs got around so everybody probably has a drop of dragon blood.

[@JLchevz]

I can't believe you left out one of the most telling clues of Cersei's and Jaime's supposed parentage, a dream Jaime has in AFFC in which he meets his own mother Joanna and she seems distraught that Tywin always wanted "a knight and a queen", and Jaime responds: "but I am a knight, and Cersei is a Queen", and Joanna just turns around sadly and leaves, implying that they are not Tywin's children. (Plus in that dream Jaime had only ONE hand, implying that was NOT a dream or at least it was more real than "normal" dreams). This is the text: “We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.” “I am a knight,” he told her, “and Cersei is a queen.” A tear rolled down her cheek.

[@grank8189]

It's a dream. It's more likely to mean that Joannna is disappointed in them for not being true knight and queen. It's Jaime's subconsciousness. He knows deep down he's not a true knight, and the dream is him processsing that.

[@Zeuseus6609]

​@@grank8189could easily be both. Martin is a good enough writer to have layers to a scene like that.

[@cardenova]

The meaning is that they’re both shit knights and queens (at least at that given moment and pov). You have to remember how despised they are by the common people. She is most likely disappointed in them.

[@PineappleLiar]

Jaime also has the closest thing any Lannister sibling experiences to dragon dreams, where he dreams of Brienne defenseless under Casterly Rock, asking about bears when she is going to be left defenseless in a fight against a bear at Harrenhall very shortly after this. The Joanna dream is also weird because Jaime thinks during it that it’s weird he only has one hand during the dream, when normally in dreams he still has two hands; not sure how this connects exactly, but I thought it worth mentioning. As a counterpoint though, I think using dragon dreams as a metric for Targaryen-ness is worth questioning. Because there’s a bit of a Venn Diagram space between dragons and visions and warging where I feel a particular mix of the three makes a dragon dreamer. Take Jon Snow, for example, we all but know he’s a Targaryen, but he doesn’t have any dragon dreams, as far as I can recollect. But he is a warg, and has vivid dreams about direwolves and crypts that may or may not be predicting the future. Unfortunately we can’t use ‘has visions’ as a metric for being a Targaryen because then we have to wonder if Jojen, Bran, Melisandre, Patchface, and even Owen the Oaf are secret Targaryens, which, no. They aren’t.

[@BelligerentMonkey]

I have often wondered why a man as obsessed with legacy as Tywin never took on a second wife after Joanna's death in order to have more children. Certainly after Jamie became a member of the Kingsguard Tywin would have considered it a necessity to have more sons as Tyrion was his lone male heir. Yet Tywin remains unmarried and without what he would consider suitable heirs for the remainder of his life. What if Tywin was infertile and all three of his children were offspring of The Mad King? And Tywin never tried to produce heirs of his own because he knew he was incapable of doing so, something that surely would have driven him mad knowing how much the future of House Lannister meant to him.

[@kekero540]

Mainly because it could lead to a civil war. If Cersei or Jaime decided to claim the westerlands. He probably wanted one of Kevans children although I have my own theory about a certain horse coming to dethrone cersei

[@edwardwright2989]

Ok buddy.

[@SaucyLiving]

I like it but I do think its slightly less probable than the infidelity theory.

[@elitegenoside]

Because he was too heartbroken. He absolutely loved his wife. Characters remark how she was probably the only person he truly loved. Yeah, he still has sex (with whores) but that's strictly lust. He doesn't want another wife... also, he doesn't have anymore female first cousins.

[@soxpeewee]

Joanna died while Tywin was still hand of the King. In the books, 8 yr old Cersei and Jaime show Oberon Martell the baby "monster" Tyrion. When Cersei was age 10, Tywin was maneuvering to get Cersei betrothed to Prince Rhaegar who instead chose Elia Martell or rather King Areys small council chose her because Mad King Aryes didn't want a "servant to be married to his kid" or whatever. If at the time, Tywin was married among other issues this would impact Cersei's marriage options. Realistically, Areys didn't trust Tywin anymore and didn't want Tywin's daughter aka Tywin's puppet to have a claim on the throne thru successor aka Rhaegar or the son of Cersei/Rhaegar. My pet theory is that Areys was eyeballing Cersei as a future replacement for Joanna (his maybe lover? Or at least crush) and Rhaella, his wife after he either reestablished Tywin as a trusted advisor or killed Tywin. Also if Tywin remarried, Jaime and Cersei's inheritance get compromised AND Tywin is now in a position where 1)his new wife is used against him as well as all possible children and 2)Areys suspects treason (houses aligned in marriage as Tywin could not marry a minor house or commoner.) Tywin remarrying anything other than a Lannister would also compromise Cersei and Jaime's marriage options and Tywin's political options. Tywin could or would not marry a minor house because of his political ambitions and status. Tywin couldn't marry a commoner due to social pressures and his hatred of women. (See how he treated his Stepmother.) Plus lots of scandal would ensue from children of a future marriage including: New wife didn't have kids people would say Tywin is sterile and his kids are bastards. If the new wife had non Lannister looking kids=bastards. New kids, not a dwarf? Tyrion=bastard New kids is/are a dwarf=Jaime and Cersei are bastards. It was a no win. If he did sire a bastard on a prostitute or paramour he could deny the kid or use them as needed without political issues. The only way Tywin could remarry and remain influential in the way he desired would be to marry another Lannister past child bearing age or another Lannister who only bore him children if Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion were dead with no possible heirs.😅

[@erlkoenig505]

I always found the thought that Tyrion is Tywin's only true-born child more intriguing than him being a secret Targaryen. The main reason is Tywin being such a hypocrite: Cersei and Jaime would be accepted as his children because they are more "representable" than "the imp" for proud Lord Tywin, and the thought that only misshapen Tyrion, whose birth even caused Joanna's death, is the true heir of Casterly Rock would make his father freak out. I like these complicated family dynamics more than the much easier explanation that Tyrion is just a bastard, although I admit that the evidence and the narrative logic for that theory is quite convincing. But on the level of both Tyrion's and Tywin's personality, it's just less interesting for me. Also, I always saw the fact that Tyrion has all these birth defects as support for him being Tywin's biological son because of the fact that Tywin and Joanna were cousins, while Aerys and Joanna weren't realated. People frequently see Tyrion's dwarfism as proof that Aerys is his father as he comes from a highly incestuous dynasty, while in fact the line of incest would have been broken in the moment when Aerys's sperm fertilised Joanna's oocyte. It is also worth mentioning that achondroplasia, the type of dwarfism present in Tyrion's actor Peter Dinklage, is dominatly transmitted, meaning that at least one of Tyrion's parents would have had to be affected, too, if he had achondroplasia, unless it is caused by a spontaneous mutation, which make up the majority of all cases. So in case of Tyrion having achondroplasia, incest is actually an unlikely explanation, but achondroplasia is of course not the only candidate condition. Anyway, I could even imagine that GRRM initially wanted to make Tyrion a secret Targaryen but then changed his mind, either dropping the idea or presenting Jaime and Cersei as and alternative or as a red herring.

[@MegaKnight2012]

Martin has said he doesn't like the idea that Tyrion has to be a Targaryen to command a dragon. That could mean Tyrion will get a horn that binds dragons, the magic that binds dragons to Valyrians will be broken, or Tyrion could command an ice or sea dragon rather than a Valyrian fire dragon. It could be metaphorically, as Tyrion finds ways to control Targaryens who are called 'dragons'.

[@adamantiiispencespence4012]

The genetics of Ice and Fire clearly don't play by normal real-world rules. This is expressed in the fact that many of the noble houses especially the Lannisters, Baratheon and Starks have traits stereotyped to their house that have endured through several millenia of marriages to other families. Especially the Lannisters who almost invariably have some degree of blonde hair and green eyes both highly recessive traits.

[@elizabethclaiborne6461]

It’s literally a different universe with different laws of nature. Stop trying to define art with science. The actors personal medical history does not define a character from a book, either. There is zero evidence that Tyrion has inherited dwarfism, only that Peter Dinklage does. You are confusing a fantasy world with reality, and muddling book vs tv show.

[@erlkoenig505]

@@elizabethclaiborne6461 I'm not. George cares about the rules of inheritance, as seen in the case of Cersei's children, so it's justified to speculate that he did research on the inheritance of other traits and conditions such as dwarfism as well. We don't know whether he did. But that's the whole point about interpreting literature: Trying to see the story through the author's eyes. And only because it's fantasy we're not supposed to do that? I strongly disagree.

[@WalkingTaako42]

You've spoiled the twist of the last ASOIAF book: "Oops! All Targaryens"

[@randomasgray]

I think another detail that supports Jaime is Tywin's son is how the aunt says he reminds her of his uncles. If he wasn't meant to be then she would have compared him to his mother's side of the Lannister family instead. I believe her point was that Jaime naturally lacked that cruelty Tywin possessed and his brothers didn't. All are fiercely loyal and supportive of family, but only Tywin drive 2 houses to their ends over slights to the Lannister name. Tyrion has that if more tempered. Him shooting his father was proof. Jaime could never have pulled that literal trigger if it were him instead.

[@Mark-eg5hx]

Tywin and Joanna were first cousins, so this is a moot point

[@randomasgray]

@@Mark-eg5hx it is not moot as the comparisons are being made with direct relatives not extended family. My point remains valid.

[@jamiemohan2049]

She also said Tyrion is her brothers only true born son. Even if the twins were half Targaryen they clearly look more Lannister so it would still be possible for him to be like his 'uncles'.

[@Laramaria2]

I think the idea is to build up Cersei as a mirror of Aerys, bringing Jaime to the same situation he was at the end of the rebellion. Her becoming more and more like the mad King would be the reason why Jaime becomes the younger brother from the prophecy and kills her. 🤔 It would be an interesting thing, as Jaime is drifting apart from Cersei for a while in the books.

[@soxpeewee]

Cersei dreamed of marrying Rhaegar since early childhood and was even told by Joanna? That she would. Cersei wanted to be just like a Targaryen. Cersei clearly never got taught anything by Tywin and never had his attention. Is it really a surprise that she is acting like the last kings she knew aka Aerys and Robert?

[@rustyshackleford8022]

>Barristan kills dany after she goes nuts as is predicted. >He and Jamie will both be queenslayers. >awkward conversation where barry is forced to apologize for being so harsh about the kingslaying

[@superpheemy]

Of course, the Occam's Razor explanation is that the fascination with Wyldfire, the cruelty and ambition Cersei displays is just a way of illustrating that she's gonna be a *horrific* ruler. Just a monster. Which, now that she *is* regent under King Tommen, she's showing just how much of a monster she really is.

[@Mila-Rosa]

Yeah, I think the similarities to Aerys are intentional - to draw parallels between Cerseis thoughts/actions and the Mad King. Not to point to her parentage

[@Ashbrash1998]

That's why I've always leaned more into Jamie being Aerys. Because we see several times how kids aren't the result of their parents temperaments. Tommen and Myrcella were decent kids despite Cersei and Robert's parenting. Jon is the grandson of the mad king, yet is more like Ned. Ned in turn, took after Jon Arryn.

[@soxpeewee]

Now? She was always a monster. She just didn't have the power to influence as many events and people until she became regent. She was a monster at 8, when she tortured her baby brother Tyrion. She was a murderer by 10/11 when she threw Melara down the well. She just got worse and worse. The only reason why she isn't doing more evil is she constantly f*cks everything up because she's too stupid to know she's stupid.

[@soxpeewee]

​@@Ashbrash1998Cersei and Robert's parenting of Myrcella and Tommen are great (unintentionally.) Cersei primarily ignores them and allows them to be raised by wonderful tutors, nannies and SEPTA's while Robert is loving and kind to them both. Simultaneously, Robert shows them (unintentionally) that he hates what Joffery is and inadvertently teaches them what not to act like. Cersei does instill some good values in her children: duty to family and station in life, as well as patience and delayed gratification due to her spoiling if Joffery harming Myrcella and Tommen. She also teaches them court appropriate behavior s although Robert is better at this (example then seeing Joffrey being forced to give sympathy for Bran Stark.)

[@sleekoduck]

Cersei is showing signs of early dementia like Aerys. This is another disease that runs in the Targaryen family. Antisocial personality disorder could come from Tywin, but that seems to be more of Tyrion's shtick.

[@Pouloririri]

I was already familiar with most of the hints and things talked about in this video, except one that I found really cool: The interaction when Aerys says to Jamies to kill his father, and then Jamie proceed to kill him. Never caught that myself or heard/read about it, not sure if you thought of it Robert of if you got it from somewhere, anyway, the sheer simplicity of it make it really really cool

[@stevepirie8130]

Wasn’t it Varys who had advised the King not to open the gates but his maester Pycelle (a Lannister man) vouched for Tywin’s loyalty and he was there to “save” them from the rebels? I might be remembering wrong as it’s a few years since I read the books. So when the King realised Tywin’s men were ravaging the city he’d ordered Jaime to bring him his head expecting a King’s Guard to obey. If he’d asked any of the other six KG to do it they would have. Bit silly asking Tywin’s son to do it though as we now know.

[@LusiaEyre]

I don't buy this theory. Primarily because neither Tywin nor Aerys indicate that there might be any truth to it. Aerys refused to marry Rhaegar and Cersei despite his insistence on finding a Valyrian bride for him. Elia Martell was the best he could get in the end (a few generations removed from Daenerys Targaryen). And he wasn't happy with her Dornish-ness. Aerys did not consider for a second that Cersei could be his and saw her as a 'servant's daughter'. He also claimed Jaime for Kingsguard to insult Tywin even further. And yet, at no point did he try to humiliate Tywin by implying that he's raising his bastards. And Tywin for nearly 20 years builds his idea of a legacy on Cersei being next king's mother and getting Jaime back as heir. As for similarities between Cersei and Aerys, they seem to be leading to a conclusion that Aerys didn't become the way he was simply because he was a Targaryen. And it's also a cruel twist of fate on Jaime. He killed the Mad King and spent years at his sister's side. He gave up every worldly advantage of being a great heir. In the end, he might need to make difficult decision. Jaime despised Aerys. Would regicide be as 'doable' if he loved his monarch instead? The choice might be "kill Cersei or undo his greatest deed" because if Cersei blows up anything, the last decades of bearing the hated moniker would've been in vain.

[@lalywindland5764]

King Aerys could have SA-ed Joanna during one of her visits to the capital. She could have kept quiet about it in order not to start a war over it. She herself might not know who the twins father is, if she had relations with her husband in the days before her assault. Or Aerys could have seduced her, as he was young and handsome back then. The twins have Lannister physical features, not Targaryen, but they could have inherited them only from Joanna and not their father(s). When the twins were born, Tywin was overjoyed enough to smile, but the king moved the court to Casterly Rock for 2 years, gifted the twins their weight in gold, said that he had married the wrong woman publicly, although his sister-wife-queen had already given him a beautiful heir, but not a viable spare yet, etc. The Queen was left in the capital pregnant and without her heir, she would have a non viable daughter later. King Aerys was never sure if the twins were his or not, he refused an advantageous marriage between Rheagar and Cersei just to spite Tywin which he envied. Also, if Aerys knew Tyrion is surely Tywin's, he might have hated Tywin for impregnating Joanna with a childbirth that finished her. Tywin never suspects his paternity because he knows he had relations with his wife 9 months before the births of his kids. He doesn't off Tyrion in his cradle because he thinks he is his son, although malformed.

[@soxpeewee]

​@@lalywindland5764I don't remember but I think the timing is wrong for Cersei and Jaime to be Aerys but a lot of what you say sounds good 👍

[@edwardwright2989]

Martin has mastered the art of writing characters with just enough of an outline to leave room for fan speculation. None of these will ever be answered.

[@Brickwinds]

This is my favorite ASOIAF theory and I really don't understand why the theorycrafting community is so vehemently opposed to it. It seems the main problem people have is that it downplays Jon's Targaryen twist. However, I think that is the entire point. Succession is never clear and that's what leads to the Game of Thrones. To me, the biggest clue is the amount of parallel's there are between Brienne/Jaime's story and Dunk/Egg's story. As well as the parallel's between Robert, Jaime, and Cersei, with Aegon the Unworthy, Aemon the Dragonknight, and Naerys. Cersei also has an incredible amount of parallel's with Visenya's story.

[@slimstar16]

I do believe that the story of the last targaryens is a running lie/joke. The more we go through, the more we realize how many there are. In that way, the entire asoiaf story is about the House of the Dragon.

[@soxpeewee]

Just picturing Oprah saying to everyone in GOT: "You're a Targaryen! You're a Targaryen! You're a Targaryen! Everyone's a Targaryen!"

[@alexanderf8451]

I think it makes a much better story if Cersei isn't a Targaryen. They are similar people shaped by similar circumstance. I think its clear that in ASoIF the world can't be fixed by getting rid of a bloodline of evil people, it has to be fixed by making it a place that is less cruel and where those in power can abuse it less.

[@phoenixinvictus9880]

I think it's clear that in ASoIF the world can't be fixed.

[@tariizm1500]

who would want to fix? if i was the author i wouldnt want fix it bcz there would be no more stories to told/write

[@MusMasi]

Even if Cersei is not Tywins Child her and her siblings are Lannisters because of their mother, who is Tywins cousin, and a Lannister.

[@DrGlynnWix]

Agreed

[@magister343]

Technically they would be Hills, as they are bastards who grew up in the Westerlands, but the point stands that they would be half Lannister on the mother's side. @@MusMasi

[@TheAbiogenic]

The fact that Jaime is the Mad King's son may actually help this theory. I am not all the way through the books yet, but in the show Cersei (and maybe Bronn to Jaime?) mentions several times about the gods flipping a coin when a Targaryen is born. Maybe Jaime and Cersei reflect those proverbial 50/50 odds.

[@Ashbrash1998]

The problem with that is that it's just a saying. There's no fact to it at all except what power people give to it. We see that several times in the books with kids rising above the expectations based on who their parents are or the circumstances of their birth.

[@thegeodude5423]

@@Ashbrash1998 I only read non-fiction ASOIAF

[@superballsfour20]

Khal Drogo is a secret Targaryen

[@Revy8]

Podrick is a targaryen

[@spinz8]

The baker's boy is a secret Targaryen.

[@mikecohen7716]

Talisa is a not so secret Targaryen. Like probably half of Volantis, she's descended from Saera Targaryen.

[@alanmorton5303]

Ser pounce confirmed as secret Targaryen!

[@PatrickLongblkwhtrbbt]

At 9:12 you said Cersei is "his son". Tbf Cersei is described as wishing she had been born male so she could have been the son Tywin would have been proud of.

[@taelion]

Pronoun respecting king right here, he didn‘t even come out yet and still gets addressed right.

[@soxpeewee]

Cersei would definitely not have made Tywin proud if she was born male and acted as dumb as she did as a woman.

[@Zveebo]

The Mad King Aerys II to Jamie: “I order you to kill your father!” Jamie be like: “Okay, if you say so, dad” 🗡️

[@couldntthinkofayoutubename6498]

I actually rly like this theory, it works on so many levels Cersei's fall to madness and her likely burning of kings landing would be reminiscent of her father Jamie would have unknowingly killed his father Tyrion being tywins on true child would be poetic

[@mattgalley8587]

Imagine being the mad king and thinking the lannisters are at the gates of Kings landing to help you keep the crown 🤣🤣🤣

[@soxpeewee]

I get Aerys here, kinda. Either my old friend is here to help (cool) or f it, he's gonna burn, so why not?

[@omarguerrero3747]

Wonderful video Robert!!! I have been watching your videos for years now and they led me and my older brother to start theorizing that Jaime and Cersei are actually the mad king’s children. Thank you so much for always making such wonderful content and your video on Jaime’s visions about Joanna really convinced me that there is way more to Joanna’s, Tywin’s, Aerys’, and the Lannister kids relationships.

[@isaacsanford6340]

Cersei not exemplifying remaining Targ traits could come from the fact that Aerys barely had any, either. The bloodline by his time was quite weak, and corrupt, if I recall correctly. The only outstanding trait he had left was the madness, right?

[@jamiemohan2049]

Nah he was still more Valeryian bloodwise. Rhaenyra herself is is 3/4 Valerian. But when she married her uncle her kids by him basically had Targareyan had 90 odd % Valerian dna. When they married out they often then maintained high incest for the following generations essentially ensuring they would be Valeryian through gene dilution. For example a white person and a mixed race (half white/half black) person often have kids that appear fully european in appearance and if these kids grow up and marry white people their kids are 99% of the time white with very little black dna if they took a dna test. This is just a more obvious example of gene dilution to give you an idea. Not to mention when the Targareyans did marry outside the family it was often to people who had some form of Valeryian blood (Baratheons and Martells.) But these people were often to diluted with westerosi genes to express valeryian dna anyways. The incest basically outbred the different dna comming into the family. So the Targs outbred the outside blood mainting most of their dna was Valeryian in the long hall.

[@defeqel6537]

Then again, all great houses have quite a bit of Targ blood anyway, and madness does not require genetic component anyway

[@soxpeewee]

The Lannister blood/genes are strong and Joanna is her mother. Anyway, don't think she's a Targaryen but I can play devil's advocate either way.

[@TheDrexxus]

lol Game of Thrones gonna end up like Battlestar Galactica where EVERYBODY was actually a Targaryen all along and nobody knew it.

[@fireblade987]

"Genghis Khan" aah shit

[@bethanyhait6880]

I don’t know that the issue with Cersei and Jaime’s relationship was the fact that it was incest (remember that the Targs did it openly for years), but that it was adulterous. The queen having relations with someone other than her husband puts the line of succession at risk and implies that someone is capable of doing something better than the king. Both are treasonous.

[@AndrewK23777]

Great vid IDG. I've personally long felt if any of the Lannisters in question (Cersei , Jaime & Tyrion) were the Mad Kings' it would be the twins. Cersei especially as the vid highlights has the most Targ echoes. Some of those similar lofty dream / ambitions , that level of incest , increasing cruelty & paranoia and perhaps most so her affinity for and arousal from wildfire. Joffrey's similarity to other cruel Targs plays into it as well and the vid provides quite a bit more to back it up. Rhaenyra and Cersei also have a staggering amount of echoes between them , one of the strongest links / parallels between characters of different eras imo ; another Targ echo for CL. Tyrion I do think is the most Lannister out of the group ; his tactical , analytical , logical and strategic approach & thinking. Also TL dreams of dragons , not the same as Targ dragon-dreams. But Cersei has the strongest evidence / clues in potentially being Aerys'. But in the end with this sort of disputed / theorized parentage i do not see us getting definitive clarity either way. The timing may or may not work with Cersei and don't see a vehicle in-universe for anything conclusive in this respect. Ntm , GRRM plays with nature vs nurture so often all over the narrative / its history. Be it Starks , Lannisters , Targs and well beyond. One example that immediately i always come back to are Viserys II's sons - how different brothers / siblings can be (Aegon IV & the Dragonknight). That nature vs nurture GRRM often uses adds to the ambiguity. Plus GRRM often leaves clues / breadcrumbs in multiple directions to make discerning even more a challenge. Many clues and suggestions that Cersei is Aerys' but also some that she is not. I just don't see us getting clarity either way and don't think it would be massively determinant to the narrative / endgame if we did get some sort of confirmation in this respect.

[@madalynnr9940]

I really think Cersei and Jaime are the Mad Kings because it would make Jaime an Oedipus parallel. He story follows a lot of beats with the myth; being first seen as a hero and then a villian; unknowingly killing his father (also paralleled in Bael the Bard story); Incestuous relationship; maiming eye/hand; become introspective after maiming. I'd be curious on if the end of the Oedipus myth may give hints to the ending to Jaime's story in who he chooses to die for ends up being blessed like Athens was in the myth

[@LaLayla99]

I think it's a little much to think every person vying for the throne is somehow a Targaryen. But... The royal families of Europe were inbred for centuries, so there is precedent, namely the Hapsburgs and the Saxe-Coburg & Gothas, know known as the Windsors. Queen Victoria married her first cousin and married off her many children to other royal houses who were closely related. And either way, Cersei & Jamie are products of incest, since Tywin & Joanna were cousins. That could bring out the madness and Cersei is just in a position to have access to wildfire, so that's what captures her imagination. I don't know what I want to be the case. I just want the last damn books to come out! 😝

[@kimmypfeiffer9130]

3 out of the 4 families are already established as targayens...

[@JeffersonSnow]

In A Clash of Kings, someone teases Jaime and calls him Kinslayer instead of Kingslayer. If Aerys is his father, Jaime would be both. Also, as far as evidence against Tywin being Cersei and Jaime's biological father, you didn't mention Jaime's vision where his mother appears to him in a dream. She says all Tywin ever wanted was his son to be a knight and his daughter to be a queen. Jaime says something like "Cersei is queen and I am a knight." Joanna only begins to cry.

[@JenksAnro]

Oooh the bit where Aerys tells Jaime to kills his father and so he kills Aerys kinda got me, that's kinda too good

[@Zveebo]

Yeah, I love that part, even if the rest of the Jamie side of thing doesn’t fit nearly as well as Cersei. If GRRM wants to go down that path, that’s a truly delicious twist.

[@soxpeewee]

Jaime: Ok Jaime (kills his dad) Tywin: 😂

[@Kubinda12345]

Jaime is de facto a traditional Lannister name. Lannisters are often name with Ty- at the beginning (Tyrion, Tywin...) or J/G at the beginning like Joanna, Genna, Joy etc. and Jaime fits into this rule.

[@Brickwinds]

That doesn't mean he wasn't Targaryen. He would have been named by Tywin.

[@Kubinda12345]

@@BrickwindsTrue but I was just countering in Deep Geek's argument about Jaime's name.

[@Zveebo]

True, though his argument was more about Cersei, really.

[@tyf.5111]

Kevan doesn't fit this naming convention and he isn't any less of a Lannister.

[@Customerbuilder]

I always prefer IDG over whatever I'm watching. Thank goodness for notifications.

[@klawzilla]

Man I gotta say, the visuals you’ve put together at 10:05 are so satisfying to my brain. Excellent way of conveying information

[@MegaKnight2012]

It's weird how in these Cersei analysis, she's never compared to her namesake, the Greek sorceror sun-goddess, Circe. Martin has said his characters' names bear importance. Circe was the daughter of the seanymph, Perse, and the sun god, Helios. Helios is associated with dragons, Circe being taken to her island by dragons, with her niece and Helios' granddaughter, Medea, having a dragon chariot. This Helios dragon association might be further fuel for the firey theory that Cersei is a Targaryen Dragonseed.

[@soxpeewee]

Good points. Circe could also turn men into wolves, lions and swine. By the same thought process she could be a Stark or Lannister. Additionally, the Lannisters are also considered solar centric imagery. I think Jaime seems more like Apollo or Odysseus than Aerys. IDK. Like your thinking though

[@MegaKnight2012]

@@soxpeewee Ser Jaime could very well have an Apollo vibe, and Apollo was associated with dragons, one of his titles being 'dragon-slayer'. Jamie clearly has a war god vibe going for him. Jaime lost his hand to a man who's name was basically 'wolf', like Tyr lost his hand to Fenrir.

[@zackshepherd5586]

Coincidence with twins that the phrase “when a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin to decide if they’re mad or not” gets one of each

[@rafamuniak]

While reading the books for the first time for me it was quite obvious that is the plan for GRRM, there are too many clues. You mentioned a lot of them, but forgot 2 other important ones: 1. Jamie's dream of his mother (read carefully looking for clues, "we all dream of we can't have") 2. The most important of all: Selmy discussion with Daenerys in ADWD. Yes, the same chapter where from out of nowhere Barristan mentions Aerys and Joanna case, and which he concludes with famous: whenever Targaryen is born, God flips a coin - which connects Jaime and Cersei and obviously pointing to Jaime being the noble Targ one and Cersei the mad Targ. Why would GRRM write this in very same chapter? It would be very Martinesque to do this, with Tywin hating his only son, Tyrion which is kinda suggested in Jaime's dream. I think this two arguments should be added to your video. I've never understood claims that Tyrion might be a Targ, he's anything but a Targ in the books, while for Jamie and Cersei we are flooded with arguments in AFFC and ADWD. The only argument I see against: too many hidden Targ twists. Perhaps Martin was leaving doors opens for his ideas which he might use later in the books if he found them useful.

[@rafamuniak]

Here is the dream fragment i mentioned, especially last sentences but there are others (will you forget your lord father, who are you?): "“I am not your sister, Jaime.” She raised a pale soft hand and pushed her hood back. “Have you forgotten me?” Can I forget someone I never knew? The words caught in his throat. He did know her, but it had been so long... “Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly.” Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. “He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most.” “Who are you?” He had to hear her say it. “The question is, who are you?” **“This is a dream.”** **“Is it?” She smiled sadly. “Count your hands, child.”** **One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. “In my dreams I always have two hands.” He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump.** “We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.” “I am a knight,” he told her, “and Cersei is a queen.” A tear rolled down her cheek.

[@tickledeggz]

People for some reason think that personality traits are genetic. I have nothing in common with my biological father aside from hairline and surname, i was raised by a step father who i am told i am incredibly similar too personailty wise. The Targaryen madnees is really really stupid and only excusable because genetics work in Asoiaf work off of a very flawed understanding of how Dominant amd Reccesive genes work (every Baratheon has dark hair no matter who theyre mother is, even though irl you can have a ginger born from 2 dark haired parents if they both have the gene for it). For a more accurate depiction of the effect of long term inbreeding, look up hapsburg jaw.

[@Zveebo]

@@tickledeggzWhy should Planetos genetics necessarily work as they do here on Earth? This is a fantasy story set in a fictional, magical world. I’m quite GRRM knows that real world genetics don’t work as they do in ASOIF - it’s just a useful element for storytelling.

[@TrollinFromFlask]

​​​@@tickledeggz Well the targs are technically magical, I really wouldn't have to strain to imagine that has positive effects of their DNA and could keep the more repulsive aspect of inbreeding in check. Not saying that's what George had in mind but if he dropped clues to this I could see it being a valid excuse, but as you said there are other genetically traits that don't make sense either and are over simplified, so that makes it harder to imagine he cares enough to have that excuse for the Targaryen's.

[@ElMarlish]

well tyrion did manage to intereact with the dragons without bein killed, that alone was enough to make me think "hey wait what if ...?" plus if tywin knew he wasn't his son that'd explain better his hate because being a dwarf seems a bit light for someone to hate their son, especially someone as brainy as tywin

[@ScarlitWidow]

I think it would be a better story if Jamie and Cersei were Arerys children rather than Tyrion. Not really buying into J and C having different fathers. Sure it's possible, but doesn't really seem like an angle GRRM would take.

[@debater452]

Yeah their twins that's kinda imposible that they have different fathers

[@tyf.5111]

​@debater452 It actually isn't impossible, just INSANELY rare. Since they are fraternal twins, if Joanna had sex with Tywin and Aerys within a few days of one another, it is technically possible for Tywin's sperm to fertilize one egg while Aerys' fertilized another. However, since it is mentioned many times how much Jaime and Cersei look alike, they chances of them being genetically half siblings is highly unlikely. Plus I doubt Martin would go down that route, that is too convoluted even for him.

[@debater452]

@@tyf.5111 That's still pretty silly. Also I think that Jaime being the son Aerys and killing his own father without knowing it is definetly something George likes to. After all he did a similar thing with Theon possibly killing his own son or sons

[@herbthompson8937]

​@@tyf.5111gtfo has that ever happened before?????? Really?

[@jamiemohan2049]

Twins 99% of the time have the same father. So they have to have the same dad in my mind. While possible it is statistically NEAR impossible but not impossible for twins to have different dads. Plus Cercei and Jamie while fraternal due to being male/female are described as looking very alike. Cercei is basically the female version of Jamie interms of appearance. That much we do know. So they are likely full siblings even though half-siblings can look very alike. But with how genetics work in this world id imagine this means they are full siblings. Cercei's attraction to Jamie is narcissistic in origin. She views him as the male version of herself and only loves herself. Hence why she likes Jamie. They are literally mirror twins in terms of looks, their sex and personalities. I find the idea Jamie and Cercei are the mads kings kids more credible then Tyrion being his son. Jamie is the noble Targareyan and Cercei is the 'mad' one. Mirror images. Basically whoever fathered one also fathered the other. The different dads for the twins while possible is too rare and would make the story ridiculous to me.

[@finaldarkfire]

Another angle to consider for this theory is what this would mean for a prospective, likely inevitable, conflict with Daenarys, who by this theory is Cersei's younger half-sister. Which of course has echos of both the Dance of Dragons and Blackfyre Rebellions, with two diverging Targaryan bloodlines vying for the throne.

[@JervisGermane]

She's certainly been set up as a parallel, and I have my own theory as to how that'll come out, but I don't think George has decided yet whether or not she's Aerys's daughter.

[@thekrakensdaughter]

I think he has this types of stuff decided from the start

[@JervisGermane]

@@thekrakensdaughter He expressly does not. He's changed almost the entire story as he's written.

[@Force-Multiplier]

I encountered this theory a few days ago and honestly in my opinion it would be the most epic subversion of expectations ever because of how this would deal the backhand to most characters involved with ironic punishments

[@shara1979]

Yes. So is jamie. Aerys had joanna on her wedding night. The 3 dragons are associated with them. Dany =mother. (Of dragons) Jon Snow =Drogon (black) Cersei =Vysrion (green & bronze) Jamie =Rheagal (white & gold) Jon wears the black at Night's Watch. Cersei is represented by green, her eyes, her love of green Wildfire, which again, the mad king obsessed over. And Jamie wears the kings guard white, & has a gold hand. And GRRM associates these dragon colors with them constantly & consistently in every book. And many other reasons ive been saying this since the dragons were born.

[@shara1979]

And twins sister, their aunt Jenna, says, - u are not tyrions son. Tyrion is twins son. I'm am certain this theory is legit. Aerys had 1st nite rights. And Tyrion is younger. So it would b the twins, who are his son, not Tyrion

[@ninacroftchannel]

I'm a mom of two IDENTICAL twins (the twins who developed from one and the same egg cell). They are physically identical, but in terms of temper, character and worldview, NOT EVEN CLOSE. They're so different in terms of character and other psychological features, that I sometimes ask myself if they are both MINE :) So, yes, you're right, if they are twins and share the same dad and mom, they CAN BE AND WILL BE VASTLY different in terms of character and personality.

[@ondrejvasak1054]

Tyrion is many times described as taking after Tywin, so I don't think he is Targaryen, but I think Tywin believed he was. My theory is that Cersei and Jamie are actually Mad King's children and I think at some point the Mad King actually told Tywin (or just hinted) about him sleeping with his wife just to spite him, but was vague about the details and Tywin perhaps thought that he was talking about Tyrion instead. This would made it quite ironic because he is doing everything to propagate the the two children that actually aren't his and spurns his only true child at every turn.

[@FreeFolkOfFandom]

Don’t forget about Jamie’s vision of his mother telling him he’s not Tywins son

[@driftsolstice3685]

This would also explain Maggi the Frog's use of the Valyrian word "Valonqar" to describe Jaime, if the prophecy really is about him. GRRM may have muddied the dates of Joanna Lannister's contact with Aerys II, so as not to reveal a climactic plot point too easily.

[@carlrood4457]

Another thing to remember is there's no real in-universe way of proving anything. Not even blood type testing which can only disprove paternity. It's also the problem with Jon's "claim". The fact that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child in no way proves Jon is that child and there are many who'd dispute such a claim, especially with two white haired claimants.

[@tyf.5111]

While you're not wrong about paternity proving issues, Targaryens have been known to not have white hair when mixing with non-Valyrians. Rhaenys Targaryen (Laenor and Laena's mother) had black hair due to her mother being a Baratheon.

[@soxpeewee]

TBH with all the baby swapping, Jon could be anyone's kid

[@riggit9134]

Cersei was also crushing on Aurane Waters who was a Targaryen looking bastard

[@soxpeewee]

Meh Waters was the brand X Rhaegar she never got over 😂

[@tyfallon]

There is a fan theory for literally every character being a secret Targaryen. Tyrion, Jamie, Cersei, Jon, Brienne of Tarth, Young Griff, etc

[@tyf.5111]

Jon is pretty much confirmed, and Young Griff and Brienne are more likened to Blackfyre and Duncan the Tall, respectively. I do agree people love making all the Lannisters secret Targs, though. I'm waiting for the theory that says Hodor is a secret Targaryen, too.

[@soxpeewee]

The only secret Targaryens that matter are Balerion, Ser Pounce, Lady Whiskers, and Boots.

[@soxpeewee]

​@@tyf.5111I mean if you're a Blackfyres, you're a Targaryen

[@annetta2608]

I've thought for a long time that book Tyrion is a chimera... His mismatched eyes and hair could be from a fraternal twin (possibly frim a different father?) who died in the womb and was absorbed by Tyrion

[@daniell1483]

While I don't know the answer, I think Tywin did. According to Genna Lannister-Frey, Tywing the infamously unsmiling man was, in fact, smiling at the birth of both Cersei and Jaime. We the audience don't know the exact details about what Aerys may have done to Joanna Lannister (which seems to color Tywin's perception of Tyrion), but we can see that Tywin had very high confidence in his paternity for Jaime and Cersei. He could have been mistaken, but that seems unlikely to me as Tywin openly questions Tyrion's parentage, showing he has doubts about one conception, but significantly, not the other. Beyond the lack of evidence, I think Cersei being Aery's daughter would spoil the relationship between Cersei and Tywin. After Tywin dies, Cersei reveals she has a very complicated relationship with Tywin. She says he expects Tywin to be burning in hell, and yet she also sees him as a man worthy of respect by saying he deserved attendants IN HELL. So she seems to hate Tywin on a personal level but acknowledges he was a political titan which Cersei tries to emulate (very poorly, but the intention is there). If it turned out that Cersei was yet another hidden Targaryen, it would ruin this element of the Cersei-Tywin relationship. TL;DR: Tywin, the man to know if there were problems with his parentage, showed exceptional joy at Cersei's and Jaime's birth. At least he believed very strongly they were his progeny. While there are parallels between Cersei and Aerys as rulers, I don't think this is any kind of "hint" that Cersei is literally Aerys' child.

[@johnpotts8308]

I'm pretty sure we'll never find out. ASoIaF is intended as a critique of the idea of the Divine Right of Kings (and monarchy in general) so obsessing over who provided which sperm is probably not productive. Cersei is a bad ruler not because she has (or doesn't have) Targaryen genes, but because she a paranoid Narcissist. Now whether that's because of nature or nurture is a whole other matter (though I'd guess the latter).

[@SeanCMonahan]

"Obsessing over who provided which sperm is probably not _productive,"_ but it certainly is *reproductive.* 😂

[@Kubinda12345]

The main problem with Cersei, Jaime or Tyrion being or not being Targaryens is that we know next to nothing about Aerys' and Joanna's relationship. Did he lusted after her without her being interested, were they lovers and if so was it out of love, ambition (= because Joanna wanted to replace Rhaella as queen) or combination of both? Did Joanna loved Tywin as much as he loved her or did she married him because her plans to seduce Aerys/replace Rhaella failed? We don't know. Unless we know these things, Cersei, Jaime or Tyrion being Targaryens is a theory with next to no evidence for or against it. Overall I think that it's more likely that Tyrion is Aerys's biological son while Cersei's similarities with Aerys are supposed to mirror Aerys and perhaps even Rhaenyra. All of them started promising but became madder and more unstable over time. Aerys even became known Mad King while Cersei will be perhaps known as Mad Queen.

[@LillyAnarkitty]

We do know that Aerys was extremely rapey

[@Kubinda12345]

@@LillyAnarkittyBut that was as the Mad King and after Duskendale. When he was young, he was a charismatic warrior who had a lot of lovers (kind of like Robert Baratheon).

[@Brickwinds]

I would say this supports the theory as evidence, rather than it being a problem. Almost the only information we find out about Joanna is that Aerys' was interested in her and she was sent away from court for that very reason. Considering George's writing style, there is no way that is simply coincidence.

[@Kubinda12345]

@@Brickwinds But it's also possible that Aerys lusted after her and since it made Joanna uncomfortable, her friend Rhaella had send her away. We simply don't have enough information.

[@LillyAnarkitty]

@@Kubinda12345 The seeds are always there from the beginning. His irrational conflict with Tywin went way back before Duskindale, and anything between him and Joanna would be closely related to that.

[@wheezysqueezebox7651]

Hoping that The Winds of Winter comes out soon, and A Dream of Spring, soon after that! Also hoping that GRRM gives us more clues, to confirm, or invalidate these theories! Very interesting! Thanks, Robert!

[@michaelklaphake4093]

I don't know if it's been mentioned but there's a textual reason why Jaime hasn't gone mad as well. He's the other side of the coin the gods flip when a Targaryen is born. Apologies if someone else already said this or I missed it in the video

[@soxpeewee]

I dunno Jaime seems whacked out mentally but not as bad as Cersei. Who's to say he isn't mad?

[@MagnaMater2]

I love this theory. And I think, Ser Ilyn knows. He probably was Joanna's bodyguard set up by Tywin and dared to warn Aerys that Tywin would revenge, if he ever found out he continued their affair, and I can see Aerys telling him: 'Who would tell him? You? I don't think so. - Kingsguard! Bring me his tongue.' And then they invented a story what he had said to be detongued. Joanna also threathened the twins she would tell their father she had found them with each other - it made her think twice about which father. She must have realized at that point it was not Tywin, though she might have hoped, he was, especially with Aerys getting weird. And additionally Joanna 'died' after Tyrion was born an somewhat 'obvious' Targaryen-Chimera and such women end up if not dead or in their husband's cellar with the Silent Sisters. - And Jaime in his dream 'remembered' seeing her there as a Silent Sister after his talk with Genna. - Asides Oberyn poisoning him, her being responsible for enbalming her unfaithful cousin&husband that was off to the Road of Silk to enjoy Chataya's company the very late evening she came for a secret surprise-visit to the capital and chanced upon Aerys at the dragon-mosaic, who told her she should not bother about her husband, him being still buisy with his lovers, could be a very good reason to let the hypocrite rot, that once measured his allegedly equal partner with different scales and sentenced her to the Silent Sisters. Jaime's storyline had some other odd meetings, like the one with Rennifer Longwaters who talked to him about royal bastards. - It made me wonder how many servants in the Red Keep 'know'. Especially because Pycelle did everything to hush the talks in the book that was dedicated to King Robert. - Varys knows, most likely. Additionally it starts to show with him getting old and turning more silver than gold. - Every Jaime-Chapter I've been waiting for some smallfolk on Lancel's - former Targaryen-loyalist-keep - or Queen Rhaella's lover mistaking him for Rhaegar's ghost, or dropping hints. The Lords Blackwood and Bracken talked to him about royal mistresses, too. And after the conversation with Genna the coin should slowly drop. Lastly Jaime is by now living mainly on wine, just like a firewight, he only lacks a kiss by Thoros, and Lady Stoneheart would be his chance to get that. - Though I still hope the real Hound that warged into Septon Meribalds Dog (that mst likely got killed and eaten at Gendry's inn) might come like a Deus ex-machina and hang Lem Lemoncloak before they can hang Pod, if Brienne is too late to return with his head. But that entirely depends on how long Stranger can keep up his speed. GRRM likes to tease with close misses, and usually people die shortly after they made great speeches, like Baelon Breakspear. And Jaime had his Breakspear-thoughts about 'Jaime the Just'. We just know he is NOT taking Brienne with him into exile to show up in Mereen after the lost 5y-gap. The Tattered Prince and his Beauty developed a life of their own, so he and Brienne are freed to suffer a disaster of their own, that hopefully does not include travelling a talking head.

[@christianstout6390]

Not a slight, I promise. 9:13 "Cersei is his son". Just found it funny :D

[@whoeveruwantittobe]

Very interesting fan theory and one I hadnt even considered. Would be wild if true but also fantastic adding a new layer of depth to the overall story. To compliment this theory, what if Tywin actually believed C+J were his kids because Joanna lied to him. Would explain his overall behaivor towards them.

[@grandhandsome2076]

On the point of Jamie not being like the mad king, it fits with the notion of “they say when a targaryen is born the gods flip a coin”. One mad twin and one sane twin would be a good illustration of that point.

[@sleekoduck]

I love this! I actually did a video on this a few years ago. Cersei did indeed dream about dragons! She drew a picture of herself riding with Rhaegar on one and told Jaime that it was Jahaerys and Allysaine when he asked her about it. Also, the mad king gifted the Lannister family Jaime and Cersei's weight in gold on their name day, the traditional Targaryen gift for dragon seeds. I think the books are setting her up to TRY to steal a dragon, only to meet the same fate as the original Prince Joffrey. I also love that you brought up the parallels with Rhaenyra. It would be delicious if that is her ancestor.

[@silver057]

7:27 Non-identical twins? Isn't the whole point of their romance that they look like each other? 9:14 That may not invalidate the theory but their might be some other indicators that Cersei isn't Aerys' son. Jokes aside, this was a great video.

[@rosem2378]

Identical twins are the result of a single embryo splitting within the first few days of conception. As a result, they are almost always the same gender and have identical DNA. In the Cercei and Jaime's case, their mom released two eggs at the same time and they just happened to look extremely similar

[@exilhamburger4802]

Identical twins: One egg merges with one semen to from one cell of a new human being! (Sorry, English as second language, never had biology in english!) During the multiplying of cells, some of those split apart from the rest and form another human being. Both twins have the same DNA, same sex etc. Non-identical twins: Two eggs are available (which isn't normally the case) and mrge with two semen. Non-identical twins are as related to each other as siblings, there bond is usually stronger, thanks to growing up close together!

[@alexanderf8451]

Identical twins would be the same sex and it would be obvious by now if either of them were transgender.

[@sophiawilson8696]

Well females and male twins aren't from the same egg. They born from two eggs and two sperms.

[@silver057]

Reading the comments on my on my comment, I apologize for pointing out the non-identical twin thing. I didn't know that identical twins couldn't be different genders (though I read something about it being possible through a mutation).

[@johnfarley2365]

I gotta say I really love the background presentation! Oh so green and beautiful!!

[@ThommyofThenn]

She certainly takes after "daddy" in the paranoia and sadism departments! The lemoncake doesnt fall far from the honeyed sweet tray

[@soxpeewee]

TBH Tywin is pretty sadistic and paranoid too. I mean look at what he did to his own son, Tyrion on multiple occasions. He is also super paranoid about being laughed at. Honestly Aerys and Tywin are pretty similar. Aerys would have burned the Rains not drowned them but same idea.

[@ThommyofThenn]

@@soxpeewee yea that similarity makes the question a little harder xD

[@Manterok]

I hope you never run out of stuff to talk about. I love your videos.

[@bigdaddydavejordan192]

I love the irony of the idea of Jaime and Cersei being Targaryen bastards. While Tyrion really is Tywin's only true child. What a classic thing for Martin to do and not ever confirm.

[@TheSilverscuba22]

wouldn't that mean Jamie is his son ? highly doubtful. more likely tyrion is.

[@ArodWinterbornSteed]

It is estimated that 1-5% of fraternal twins have different fathers, so it is at least possible in real life.

[@ThommyofThenn]

my brother in christ 7:04 is what you are looking for!

[@Anubiszz512zz]

If the genetic possibility you mention is the case then more than likely Tywin probably would have thought he was Cerseis father and Aerys probably thought that he wasn't her father, if I'm understanding it right. What if Tywin was sterile? Definitely runs the secret Targaryen thing into the ground but it arguably already is lol

[@holliegould3463]

i think the fact that it is so hotly debated is pretty good evidence in favor xD

[@TheZoan007]

This is my favorite theory about ASOIAF. Tyrion being the only true Lannister would be the biggest reveal in the series

[@leewalton5782]

In the book "the world of ice and fire: the untold history of westeros" it is written that the mad King would have affairs with his queen's hand maidens on a regular basis. One of which was a lannister. She became pregnant and moved back to castily rock, whereby her cousin (I think) married her and stated the children are his, he named them Cersei and Jaime.

[@Msh42069]

I could see Martin writing in a messed up Prima Nocte event where Arys went after Tywin’s wife, or he went after her and the Queen sent her away immediately after catching it happen….but regardless results in the twins. Then Tyrion comes along the traditional route later. It just all ties into the twisted stuff. Then Martin can leave it open for Targaryen coin-flip stuff with the twins too.

[@marcusgraham3257]

Rhaegar discovered everything, and told Jaime about changes that will be made when he returns Why Jaime ? What changes ? Him not returning is it part of the pophecy ? When winds of winter please ?

[@teehasheestower]

The fact that she echos the mad king is probably a literary device. It shows she is *becoming* the mad king. It doesn't mean they are related...as much as anyone is *not* related in Westeros.

[@D0ubledoublechexchex]

i think its possible but if she is i dont think tywin knows

[@keithzillner1805]

Love the lore videos! Thanks for putting in the time!

[@MissScarletTanager]

I really don't like the idea that Tyrion is a secret Targ, but I LOVE the idea of the twins being one. It's such a delightful twist for the son Tywin wanted as his heir (Jaime) not being his biological son and the one he hated most (Tyrion) being his only trueborn. Also, dwarfism is a recessive trait and therefore much more likely to appear from incest, and Joanna/Tywin WERE first cousins.

[@tonym.8069]

Honestly a double twist...triple twist? Of the Lannister twins as Aerys' secret children who still end up taking the throne, and likely later facing off against Jon and Daenerys, would be super freaking interesting. Add in young griff and his allies and could lead to three factions of Targaryeans like the three heads of their sigil. I honestly hope this is how the last two books play out because while yes it could be parallels and history repeating itself, Cersei and Jaime being bastards and not Tywins children, but Tyrion of all people, would be wild. It also adds to how life is so chaotic that's even masterminds like Tywins, littlefinger, or the spider cannot foresee everything. Plus imagine how wild it would be if us fans guessed right about Jon Snows true heritage, but didnt caught on as quick or as much to the twins being Aerys and not Tywins spawn

[@johnaverill6308]

I think the timeline factor completely disproves this theory. The twins were born 3 years after joanna left kings landing and that is a clear indication from GRRM that the twins arent targs. All the "evidence" to support this theory is just parallels that george is creating between cersei and aerys and daenerys to indicate they will go mad. Cersei goes mad cuz of prophecy and imprisonment, aerys went mad from imprisonment and product of incest, dany will go mad cuz of prophecy and product of incest

[@katiemartin6991]

Cersei's Iron Throne dream could be a dragon dream. The latter half of the vision is her suddenly naked while everyone jeers at her. That could be a dragon dream predicting her walk of shame.

[@haerverk]

The fact that Maggie's prophesy uses a Valyrian key phrase doesn't make sense at all unless there is some significance behind that choice.

[@Andy7781]

you said it yourself at the end, Cersei being Aerys' daughter is definitely a reach to say the least... and there is no "evidence" whatsoever... Jaime and Cersei having different fathers is not GRRM's style and they love each other as themselves i.e. narcissism... you might as well say Arya is a Targaryen

[@bunniey3290]

The naming thing is honestly evidence of the opposite for me. Tywin having to save his house from the idiots before him could have ruined the Lannister naming scheme for him, so naming Jaime and Cersei something else and keeping Tyrion the same could be more of his contempt for Tyrion

[@donjuan9602]

I like that you give multiple perspectives on a concept that’s common and you make me think 💭 keep up the good work

[@blomborg6120]

Ironically of the three you mentioned who would know the parent of Jamie, Cersei and Tyrion, those three being Tywin, Joanna and Aerys, all three were killed by a joint effort of Jamie and Tyrion

[@Zveebo]

The idea of Tyrion being secretly Targaryen is honestly very boring to me, and really diminishes his story, and his key relationships (eg. the irony of the hatred his father has for him). But Cersei (and Jamie, possibly) being secretly Targaryen is MUCH more interesting, even if it never becomes essential to the plot. I think GRRM has laid the groundwork pretty well for it to be true if he decides to make use of it somewhere.

[@Mathemagical55]

Genna could not have been speaking literally as Jaime could hardly resemble his Lannister uncles if Tywin wasn't his father.

[@soxpeewee]

Yeah but Joanna is a Lannister too

[@eric2500]

Hmm - well it is possible, but I think it is clear that while the characters believe in "blood" (the father's blood) and bastardy/ legitimacy as VERY important to how someone will think and behave, George might not - he keeps showing us how various characters defy this explanation. Cersei is a picture of a person going madder and madder.

[@Charles36.]

The actor that played her she did amazing job one of the best characters to hate

[@saphcal]

i had never heard this theory before and its super cool. i love this.

[@AlexielRaziel]

I think that Occam's razor applies to the case of Cersei's parentage. I think we just have to understand that both in fiction and in real life some people are cruel just for the sake of being cruel. Sometimes they're made that way and sometimes they're born that way. But there are just people that are just angry, bitter, hateful, and delight in all of it.

[@xPimpinJx]

The problem with this question is that George RR Martin has set up a world where hair color is the dominant male trait. Meaning if she was a targaryen her hair would have been white not blonde

[@TheChaosTerminal]

This is such a cool theory! 🤩 It would be amazing to rewatch the series with this in mind.

[@richardlangdon1096]

Trion is a target on. Read his description. The white hair is the tell. And although he was a short person, tywin absolutely detested him.

[@geoffstonehouse5829]

I've heard all the theories and circumstantial evidence, but I don't think any of the Lannisters were Targaryen.

[@aliasfakename3159]

The Westerosi say that the kinslayer is cursed, so maybe Jaime's been cursed for the past 14-15 years and it was only by saving Brienne did he change his karma. Also, you could argue that Jaime died when he lost his sword hand, and this "artificial reincarnation" allowed him to shirk the curse.

[@dechasrisen4783]

I like how this would make the Valonqar and the younger, more beautiful the same person - Dany

[@KerrieOhanlon123]

I think the reason why Jaime never had Ned stark about the reason why he actually killed the mad king was because he thought he wouldn't have believed him anyway and the fact that the mad king hadn't told anyone where the wild fire he was planning to use to destroy the city was Hidden apart from the pyrometer who Jaime had to kill so that the plan for the wild fires be used in the first place there was no way to prove it was tru. So he thought he honourable Eduard stark would simply say that he was lying to make him look like a hero instead of an oath breaker