Is Division Still Good Enough? NHRL August 2023 Recap

Division has been around since 2019, and the current version has been fighting since 2022. With such a quickly evolving field, can this bot still compete in late 2023?
Check out PCBWay for all your PCB and CNC fabrication needs! bit.ly/PCBWayJustCuz
Just 'Cuz Robotics Website: justcuzrobotics.com/
Just 'Cuz Store: justcuzrobotics.com/shop
Support on Patreon! bit.ly/JCRPatreon
Try PCBWay's CNC Machining or PCB Fab using this link for a $5 new user credit: bit.ly/PCBWayJustCuz
Instagram: @JustCuzRobotics
/ justcuzrobotics
Bloodsport KZbin Channel
/ bnsrobotics
@bloodsport_battlebot
/ bloodsport_battlebot
@retrograde_battlebot
/ retrograde_battlebot
Bloodsport/BnS Facebook Page:
/ bnsrobotics
Thumbnail photo by Dakota from the Chainsaw Kitty team!
#combatrobotics #beetleweight
00:00 - Action!
01:11 - Intro
02:27 - Ratfish (Qualifier 1)
05:54 - Ratfish Damage
06:23 - Ratfish Decision
06:56 - Whirlwax (Qualifier 2)
07:47 - Interview - WhirlWax
10:15 - Absolute Zero (Round 1)
12:41 - Battery Issues
13:26 - Dragonfruit (Round 2)
17:09 - Dragonfruit Decision
17:52 - Kili - SSP Kit! (Round 3)
22:03 - Kili Decision
22:23 - SPONSOR: PCBWAY
22:57 - The Next Division?

[@The8BitNerd]

Almost feels like yesterday when Division V3 debuted. (Edit) Also seems poetic that Division V3’s final loss was against one of Seth’s new next gen creations.

[@UnkillableMrStake]

I can't wait to see addition and multiplication in their fights as well 😅

[@shrekler8538]

Dont forget subtraction

[@IronOre33]

@@shrekler8538 that already exists

[@user-zh2lh4iz8j]

probably will be a overhead saw and a flame bot

[@CREEMkitty7]

Percent (flipper) Addition (flamethrower) Multiplication (Hammer saw)

[@Drawliphant]

When you redesign Division id love a video on how and why you changed what you did. Really any videos where you improve a design have been great to learn from.

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I'll be sure to make a new design overview video! I have many others in my channel, just search for Division Design Overview.

[@fromfin90]

i enjoyed seeing Division vs SSP. I also love the amount of SSP's in NHRL!

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I'm glad to see so many of them as well!

[@kz.irudimen]

Your brother screaming and cheering for you was pretty funny, bet you guys had fun :)

[@swaz9944]

i think you should do something against those gyroscopic forces, either add a counterrotating second blade and split the weight of the former in two, or gear down a smaller weight so that you have to sacrifice only like a fith of your original weapons weight but make the counterrotating mass spin faster. this in return would need more powwerfull motors aswell as batterys, so it would be a difficult balance to find, but could be well worth it if it helps with the driving

[@thefightingsquid6708]

For Division V4, maybe you could try thickening the two unhinged forks that sit between your weapon uprights. I've noticed they have bent in a few fights. If they are thickened it might also help with the front flipping on big hits. Similarly, maybe the hinged forks could be thickened and lowered on the robot. This would help the forks stay planted and give you a larger margin for error when approaching a beater bar. It seems like you need to be pretty exact with the skinny forks, as anything that isn't straight on can catch the sides. Lowering the mounting point of the forks to the bot will also decrease their angle with the floor, making them catch less. Great video as always!

[@JustCuzRobotics]

Yeah I definitely need to improve the forks for sure next go around.

[@VikingPathfinder]

Your brother is a hell of a hype man!

[@JustCuzRobotics]

Very true haha

[@SpiderWaffle]

Seth you're a great driver, you have tons of experience, you build and pit really well, you've iterated on Division a considerable amount over many years. It does not get the results you'd expect this to warrant. I think the design is clearly wanting; something bigger should change if you want better results. The influx of new talent will outpace any minor improvements to design you can make. There's three directions I could see you go. Option A, to be a more prototypical vertical weapon winning bot (closer to Synthesis)- The two biggest issues I see are the high center of mass / stability and weapon vs drive ratio. After most hits it has to self-right, the self-right can be inefficient, take too much /critical,/ disproportionately valuable time, and be unreliable. Take lynx for example, after almost every hit it delivers, it is quickly able to be in control and ready to deliver another, very often before the opponent can be positioned and ready. The timing of this is absolutely /critical/. If you can almost never be effective during this most valuable time to be effective, it's going to be a lot harder to win fights. Having a better drive not only gives you better control, which everyone knows the value of, but also gives you more bite force. Lynx delivers just as large of force on hits (maybe more), sans the concentrated stress of being a narrow blade (which it could just as easily be), with less energy in the weapon because it's typical translational velocity before impact is /much/ higher, and lynx itself doesn't rebound much or fall over after each hit and can transfer more of the energy. This also rings true for designs like Thagomizer/Maximizer. Option B, change the drive completely- You could possibly win fights with the weapon's shear effectiveness and unorthodox drive solutions that harmonize more effectively with high center mass and the weapon being a weight hog. You could use a Non-Traditional Motion Bonus. Shuffle bots getting 66% more weight might be something almost all wheeled bots should be taking advantage of already. When you look at what good shuffle bots can do with their drive and protection/robustness for it, it's hard to find a downside, they just end up with extra weight for non-drive. This could further help with center of mass and stability issues. You could also use other Non-Traditional Motion Bonus drive systems, e.g. Droopy, Depth Charge, Kitten Mittens, or invent your own. Further, designs like Huuuge, and Billy I believe work in symphony better with heavier weapon systems and high center of mass by mitigating self-right problems. Or use both ideas, like Monkfish. Option C, use a free 1 lb control bot/ wedge. e.g. Project Liftoff. This free wedge drastically improved its winrate by allowing it the time needed to spin up again, this a very similar problem Division has. Of these free bots, a low wedge with a shallow angle seems to be the most effective so far. Forks that are very effective when bot's weights are 1:1 (SawBlaze highly effective) do not seem to be nearly as effective at 1:3 ratios. I think they lack the power and impulse needed to break the steeper leading angles of the forks underneath and/or some other factors. A simple wedge can be unreasonably effective in combat robots. Or use option B and C and make a 3lb shuffle control bot.

[@PelleKuipers]

Would it help to calculate/try out different heights/shapes of the weapon and see how division responds? As you said there are a ton of similar sized robots. So knowing how your bot will respond to a hit might help a lot. If you can get it in a way that your bot bounces 50% less, it would give you more time to get after them after a hit.

[@chase55565]

Love division ❤

[@WartycoonDuos]

sweet

[@bldjln3158]

happy robot retirement day! Always a great feeling you can design anything

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I'll be happier when I have some idea what the next version should look like 😅

[@necromancer0616]

When are you going to make Multipy and Addition?

[@DigitalJedi]

I think an Uppercut-inspired design would be a good successor to the Deep6-style here. Slightly smaller weapon diameter maybe, but the big things for Uppercut as the fact it's invertible with the arms on both sides of the weapon, and the poles keeping it from doing the thing on its sides.

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I really didn't like the way that Bots like uppercut drove due to having none of their weight on their wheels. If I can figure out a way to solve that problem with an uppercut style design then I'd feel a lot better about it

[@PelleKuipers]

@@JustCuzRobotics Would it work to get the weapon to be more near the front and the wheels further to the back? Don't know how much space/weight there is of course and self righting would be more difficult.

[@wes8486]

I really think the sport is moving too far to have undersized/small batteries. Opponents will only require more damage to be knocked out, and although it sucks to dedicate more space and weight to a battery, it seems like more of a requirement every year. I know you can make Division more and more awesome, excited to see v4!

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I kind of designed myself into a corner I think with the V3 chassis design. Originally I thought that I could fit a larger battery like I had in the previous version but when I had the PCB in place I found that it ended up being too long and I had to step down from 650 milliamp hour to 530 milliamp hour. I think another change that made the battery life worse was moving to am32 ESC firmware on the weapon and less efficient brushed motor on the drive. These both use up a bit more battery power then I had been using two competitions ago

[@Term-0]

It would be really cool if division could automatically modulate it's weapon speed somewhat to act as a reaction wheel and stay more stable. This means you would probably need a processor onboard and this would increase complexity, so I am not sure.

[@aruretheincomprehensible20]

I noticed 2 things that I think you should look into improving: 1. Sometimes, when you land hits, you tip forward and your weapon hits the ground, although this didn't seem to happen so much when you were fighting Kili with your battery power down 2. When you fall on your back, your wheels don't touch the ground, so your ability to self-right is completely dependent on your weapon working I'm not sure if there's a good way to fix problem 1 without increasing weapon height or stabilizing fork length, but problem 2 might be fixed by adding some sort of protrusion to the back so that you don't land on your back so often.

[@user-dj4po3yi5z]

Maybe find a way to keep the forks planted to the ground so they don't get stuck up in the air? That's my best guess...

[@SkeptiSquid]

Would it be practical to make division into an unorthodox top attack bot? For instance, if you drive division as it currently exists backwards and ram into the opponent, due to the top heavy nature of the bot it would tend to tip over, towards the opponent, bringing the weapon into the opponent's top. Could you tweak the design to make this stye attack easier, maybe even add a small actuator under the bot to tip the entire bot without having to rely on momentum?

[@JustCuzRobotics]

Sounds like you are basically describing Starchild. I think it would need to be totally different to make that work and Starchild already does it better than I could at the 3lb scale.

[@Wddh4410]

Would you consider making Division an Uppercut style invertible vert? I know that would tweak a lot of the chassis geometry, but alleviating the battery limited inversions would save a lot of heartache.

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I'll definitely consider it at least. The further back the wheels are from the center of mass the worse driving gets though and that's a big issue for that style of robot.

[@Wddh4410]

@@JustCuzRobotics Very true. The CG issues of mega verts have been well documented because of Deep Six. Wheelieing could be solved with a longer chassis, but if that's at the expense of width of the chassis or the blade diameter, that may be a step backward.

[@subsnovideos-ur4cn]

I have several things I would do but the biggest i can say to change on division is the forks and wheelie problem. Whenever you drive forward at speed the whole robot tilts back and the forks don't touch the ground very well and it also puts a huge gap under the robot for other forks to slip into. Division "locks horns" with other robots a lot despite it having long reach it still isn't enough to hit them when this happens. You also get pinned from the "side" a lot. The beginning of the ratfish fight is what I'm talking about where the wide body and thin weapon attack means it's easy to hold division from one side and avoid the weapon. Maybe add some torsion springs to the forks (like endgame) so that no matter how tilted the robot the forks are forced to press against the floor. Maybe some small wheelie bars on the back to keep it from tilting. You could also make forks similar to sawblaze where its a fork from the front and the sides so even if you come at them from the side it can still get under you where as normal forks don't work if you go from the side it just a flat wall. This would help keep people from just holding the robot from the side, as hopefully the other robots forks would skate upwards instead of getting stuck or getting under. One thing i can say is working is the point and shoot driving strategy where you line up for a hit drive quick and if you miss turn around and do it again until you land a good hit then follow up and stay on them until they get KO'd.

[@JustCuzRobotics]

The wheeely issue I tried to solve with the rear TPU armor but this ended up making self righting really difficult from the back at least with the blade I used here. I wanted to run my heavier weapons but I didn't have the weight for them since the brushed drive setup is slightly heavier than the previous brushless was. I think I can get that weight back by designing with brushed in mind at the start.

[@subsnovideos-ur4cn]

@@JustCuzRoboticsI didn't think about self righting with wheelie bars. Probably can't do that one.

[@shiken2224]

I feel like you could do something similar to what Deep Six did in season 6 where they had the forks and stabilizers as one piece

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I think Deep 6 is a ton wider than most bots at Battlebots, Division isn't that much wider than some opponents, Fully Defined is much wider in fact. I would not want forks that get in the way of hitting opponents

[@CopperAirplane]

I'd be curious to see if you could lower the weapon further. Eating up their forks would give you the advantage in the ground game. And maybe it would help with the gyroscoping a tiny bit? Along those same lines I'd also take a look at seeing if it's reasonable to automatically slow the weapon during turns. It's probably unneeded if you're always winning the ground game, but if that isn't happening, I'd at least think about it

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I already manually slow the weapon during turns and that works pretty well for me. I don't like the idea of adding more complication with an extra microcontroller and accelerometer and software. Just too many things that can go wrong

[@CopperAirplane]

What if you don't use an accelerometer? I know they're a bit finicky. But hats off to you, I don't think I could deal with also managing the weapon while I'm fighting for my life

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I've been driving this robot for 4 years now so I've gotten used to it at this point LMAO

[@fasthippy]

what if you went with a more stable base like 2 long fork that goes all the way through. This should allow for better ground game and more solid hits. Also you might want to look to uppercut or the like for a design that is either unflippable or perhaps invertible in a way that flipping is not an issue. I think adding a powerful ground game with you long reach could go a long way against all the 4 wheel drive verts. Maybe a capital i so that it forks well and if flipped it can auto resettle... not sure.

[@JustCuzRobotics]

May be worth trying out!

[@Gio98art]

Division needs something to prevent them from falling over backwards

[@TheVonWeasel]

Not sure if it's practical physics-wise, but those spikes on the front seem to cause you far more problems than they solve. Getting stuck on the floor, pushing your opponent out of your weapon range, etc. If they could just be a bit shorter and less spiky so they don't get caught on stuff that might be the key

[@user-sq7eq6tj2t]

The tiny clones of sawblaze are a bit cute at the same time scary

[@fasthippy]

maybe a feeder fork like ratfish or crash fest to lift your opponent into you weapon and as a bonus this lifter if designed right could be a decent self righter.

[@JustCuzRobotics]

Adding a lifting arm will require a ton of extra weight and space though. I doubt it's worth it.

[@Deviled_EG]

Where can I get a good small (1-2 inch) saw blade ? Please help

[@JustCuzRobotics]

Other than a hardware store I don't have any better idea than you do. Look online for Dremel or rotary tool saw blades

[@alexzandermanning6094]

I always wondered, do you live near NHRL or do you make a lengthy drive each month ?

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I drive about 170 miles to get there from New Hampshire. They host about 6 open tournaments a year so not every month and I don't always attend every one either, sadly NHRL is the closest beetle tournament by far besides MassDestruction

[@Coolgamertag120]

What's the purpose of the forks instead of the wedge on certain variants of division? Why choose one over the other?

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I can always use either one for different opponents. The wedge fights horizontal spinners mainly, and the forks fight everything else.

[@michaellesliegmail]

What about having a second vertical spinner next to the first, offset backwards and locked to the firsts rotation via gears. I believe if you have two similar kinetic energy spinners counter rotating in a similar plane you could cancel out the gyro forces, and if they're locked together with gears the total energy transferred would be coming from both verts.

[@JustCuzRobotics]

That would be pretty cool but it would require at minimum 3/4 of a pound of weight that I definitely don't have to spare. Right now division is like 3.00 lb

[@michaellesliegmail]

@@JustCuzRobotics yeah, you would definitely have to sacrifice the size of your spinner. Hard to say if it's worth it for more maneuverability, especially since you're adding a failure point in the gearing.

[@nightrider5420]

I think Division is good for another 5 years Seth soon as you get those battery issues worked out. Good luck

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I appreciate the faith you have which I lack haha. 5 years is a heck of a long time in this sport!

[@CREEMkitty7]

19:32 what I came here for

[@ruvimsemenyuk8224]

You should all some things that stick out in the back that way you won’t flip over or waste energy self writing or make division version 4 invertible

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I already do have things sticking out the back to make it harder to flip over but the problem is anything that sticks out the back also makes it harder to self right if I do flip

[@miniroboticsleaguecompetitions]

Maybe make the spinner farther forward and lower so that you can possibly damage their ground game and not have to rely on getting under them.

[@JustCuzRobotics]

I certainly might end up trying that

[@skimix_designs4076]

change up the forks on the bot they seem to get stuck in the floor a lot. make them shorter and more flat than angled down. the forks seem like they are keeping the other bot away from divisions blade more than getting them closer. gotta also figure out the battery.

[@Living_Murphys_Law]

The more angled forks tend to help Division hit up, instead of straight out.

[@JustCuzRobotics]

Yeah I think the forks and ground game are major areas that need improvement for sure. I thought that the long hinged forks would work well to stay on the ground with gravity but they are too light and that didn't work as well as I had hoped. I'll need to think of something a lot better.

[@heartofdawnlight]

its honestly hard to tell how much forks are helping at NHRL these days or if they're hurting more. especially for the weight commitment that they are for the likes of Division (they look big & heavy).. more and more builders are making bots that tear the living hell outta the wooden arena, & after the 2nd-ish round in the bracket theyre already not really functioning well as intended.

[@JustCuzRobotics]

Yeah. I kinda hate having to use forks but Division's blade is so big that it hits really high up in front, which means I usually have to raise the opponent into the blade. I may need to downsize the spinner somewhat to be more practical. But I don't want to compromise on that too much as it's pretty much what made Division what it is.

[@mineman8496]

battery issues sucked but hey at least the wheels stayed on

[@FatManWalking18]

your brother needs to be featured in more videos

[@yagoa]

is "robot fighting" more about racing around than actually fighting now? you always did more damage...

[@JustCuzRobotics]

For a long time the fights were judged in 3 categories - damage, control, and aggression. So it's not all about damage even if that weighs heavily.

[@yagoa]

well obviously not in this tourney, no damage , no control over the opponent and no agreesion @@JustCuzRobotics