Is Ferrari's Future in Jeopardy? - Carmudgeon Show Jason Cammisa & Derek of ISSIMI Ep 85

[@Parker-time]

Ferrari not allowing comparisons has been their choice for about a decade now. As a car enthusiast it looks pretentious AF. Which is on brand for them.

[@rsr789]

Totally. Although, it's funny, having been to Cavallino Classic 6 (7? I can't recall) times, none of the Ferrari owners are wearing Ferrari gear. They are all wearing FAR more expensive and exclusive clothing, items form Loro Piana, Cucinelli, Zegna, etc... it's the people that don't own Ferrari's that are wearing the crappy clothing Ferrari sells (and makes the most money on... it's in their publicly stated financials).

[@tiredoworking9350]

Clarkson had trouble with that, back in the Top Gear days.

[@deanchur]

@@rsr789 Or the guy who bought a Mondial.

[@DuvJones]

The problem is that by doing that they are not in the discussion because most car discussions tend to centre around comparisons, which is funny for the fact that the company seems obsessed with having the topline specs for over a decade. The other problem with that, Ferrari is synonymous with unobtainium because of this, in part, and it is an issue. We, the millennials and onward, genetically don't see these vehicles which means that the Ferrari is almost completely alien to fresh consumers with money to burn. The fact that Ferrari tends to be limited to acquire, like it or not, simply makes them an not-option... and when you begin to notice the generational issues this will cause, well... you get the company trying to be "too cute by half" when attempt to court more consumers.

[@ciangibbons6643]

​@@rsr789 They don't need the cheaper merch because they already own the most expensive merch, the car. Ferrari isn't really a car manufacturing company, it's one of the biggest sports teams in the world who makes a lot of money off selling high performance cars as part of their merchandising. They're very open about it and have been from the moment that their first car rolled off the line, they're a race team before all else.

[@johnbacon4997]

7:40 "Is there an italian coughdrop?" Yes Jason its called a Cigarette

[@Charlie-Charlot]

I’m 25, so I still quite fit in the kids as the “new generation “ and I’m into Ferraris, but old Ferraris, pretty much up until the mid 2000’s I think the problem with Ferrari nowadays is the same for most supercars manufacturers ; there’s way too many of them to the point where they became irrelevant. Do people still care about the zillion of McLaren models ? Or “special edition of a special edition of an already special car”? These cars have also become unattainable to the point where there’s no real point of dreaming about having one someday. Because of this, I think the interest and the focus of young enthusiasts have now shifted towards the late 90’s and early 00’s cars, especially Japanese. Every single 12 yo kid now is obviously into “tha suprraa bro” or any alternative.

[@FEDCaleb]

80s-00s american shit boxes are the best 😈

[@betteroffdeadd]

Jason not complaining about the v6... Must be a good one 😂

[@stevemiller1626]

It really does sound great. Much better than their turbocharged V8’s.

[@JK061996]

I can't believe he liked a turbocharged, automatic V6

[@S50Sinner]

I love it, I've wanted a 120 degree V6 to come out for a while, though McLaren beat them to the punch.

[@TheBCninja]

​@JK061996 It is a different V6 than your Mom's Camry.

[@airbagsagain]

The fact this was released a day after Whistlin Diesels F8 destruction video is an amazing coincidence.

[@dkjoses12]

That was a decent video from Cody

[@PigglyWigglyDeluxe]

People still watch that punk? I had completely forgotten about him until now

[@Iamthestig42069]

@@PigglyWigglyDeluxe I’ve never seen him wearing Black Flag or Sex Pistols shirts. He probably listens to country and hip hop. he’s making more money with that Ferrari than any collector ever will. The guy has figured out how to make a living doing absurd, over the top automotive stunts. The formula he has for getting views works.

[@liketheterminatortoldya7297]

I think the video got taken down

[@jimiverson3085]

I prefer to think of it being the day after Derek's 250GT Vignale video dropped.

[@MaticT]

Im born in the late 90s - I grew up with the 360 and 430 scud. that were to me (back then) quite boring. But the F40 was the and i mean THE LEGEND. Ferrari later putting out thr 458/488 was a revolution from my perspective. Current lineup(Pista/SF90/Portofino/F8) was overstlyed AF until the 296 GTB and Rome came out. Ferrari always goes though phases for sure but im 100% sure that the last brand we should worry is Ferrari

[@Guythatlivesaquietlife]

This is what no Pininfarina does to Ferrari, it's clear they've lost their touch in styling

[@watchman1872]

To me, the Roma is the only really beautiful new Ferrari. They all look good, no doubt. But what I find telling is that on the Ferrari website, you have to dig a bit to actually find their new car lineup. The first thing you see is some sort of fashion show, (I'm not joking). And then the Ferrari clothing line. And a link for significant past Ferraris. Then, some other crap, and finally offerings for used Ferraris. And when i finally found a link at the bottom of the page, in mouse print, for their current lineup, the first model to pop up was the effing SUV. F*** Ferrari. I want a Gordon Murray T.33. Having designed the McLaren F1, that man knows what a real driver's car is. And the more I look at the T.33's clean, simple lines, the more I absolutely love it. It's beautiful in the same way that a 67 Stepnose Alfa Romeo Giulia is. Or an E-Type Jag. And at 2400lb, 1090Kg, it weighs 1000 pounds less than the Ferraris. (And the T.50 weighs 2175lbs, 968Kg). No nav. system. No unnecessary bullshit. And no power steering above parking lot speeds. It isn't needed. Just a 615HP, 11,100RPM normally aspirated V12 and a manual 6-speed, (or a DSG that so far no one has chosen, which tells you what you need to know about his customers). Just a perfectly crafted driving machine, built like a Swiss watch. The T.33 and T50 are what you buy for the driving experience. To me, Ferraris are now what you buy to be seen in, or if you don't know any better.

[@NoahBB]

Finally, an episode on a Canadian holiday! Usually I'm working and you guys are taking it off 😂

[@zhnkbr]

It's a fuuny thing. I've watched everything piece of content jason has produced since he's joined issimi, and everything Derek has made after i was introduced to him, and whenever they Mendon ferrari or the mazda miata, or a sacco benz or pre f80 m3 bmw, its always the same stories, the same facts, the same anecdotes, the same everything! Every single time! Without fail. This entire episode i was playing carmudgeon show ferreri bingo in my head!its wierdly comforting and I'm all for it!

[@zhutwo]

That "hot person who is insecure" analogy was right on the money. When the value of your most prized and defining attribute is in jeopardy, you get a bit defensive. In Ferrari's case it's their brand - they want you to keep keeping those pens.

[@ericlowe5800]

I had a ferrari poster on my wall growing up. But I ALSO had a Carrera RS poster. And as an adult Porsche just seems so much more accessible.

[@jimiverson3085]

Well, it helps that an annual service isn't 5 figures.

[@flacjacket]

​​@@jimiverson3085 and that it won't grenade itself if you skip 1 or 5. You can run tens of thousands of track miles into basically any 911 interspersed with a hundred thousand road miles and so long as you change the oil it will be as reliable as a civic. Ferraris break if you look at them funny. My buddy had a F430 Spyder for about 3 years, he put 16k miles on it, it cost him $16k in maintenance and when he sold it all of the hinge pins in the convertible top had worn out and needed replacement and the parts cost $30k. He managed to make a trade to an unwitting dealer for a Vanquish and got off the hook for that repair, but it would have meant that the car had cost him almost $3/mile to drive not counting normal consumables or insurance.

[@jimiverson3085]

@@flacjacket Based on my experience and what I have heard, you are overselling Porsche reliability a bit. Clutches are a definite wear item - I was surprised when the one on my 2010 Boxster S went out at about 50,000 miles. (Although my theory is that clutch wear is accelerated because most owners haven't driven another car with a clutch in years.) And on at least some models the shift cables are prone to fail - when mine went out the mechanic was not shocked. But those two events between them, while not cheap, were less than half the cost of an annual service at a Ferrari dealer.

[@420BudNuggets]

@@jimiverson3085do you have a PDK or manual

[@jimiverson3085]

@@420BudNuggets Manual. Hence the need to replace the clutch.

[@jameswillard1]

How disappointing, I 💯 agree with you Jason that an icons of the 296, a car you are clearly extremely impressed with would have been amazing and could’ve only shown it off as such even more. As far as Ferrari sending cheater cars, there was a silver 458 back in the 2010/2011 timeframe that was a US press car and let’s just say it was running acceleration times that were what a 488 would have run. 10.7 1/4 mile @132MPH! You could drive a 458 off if the Grand Canyon and not hit those numbers

[@mnejmantowicz]

One of my favorite episodes. Never stop. Full Stop. (Ha)

[@karespratt5131]

My favorite Ferrari eras of design are the 60's and the 2010's but I love the look of the 812 competizione and the Daytona SP3

[@matthewlange8616]

Great listen. There's a piece in Paul Frere's original road test of the 365gtb/4 Daytona where he wrote that the car Ferrari had prepared for him developed a fuelling issue and would not rev past about 6,000 rpm. To record his testing numbers they pulled a development hack out that was filthy dirty had 26,000km on the clock and basically unprepared. That was the car he got to a Miura beating 174mph in. No idea if that is true (and always worth noting that Frere had previously raced for the Ferrari works team and won le Mans with them) but it's a good story.

[@cbca6567]

Corrections. In the book on the 365GTB/4 by Doug Nye which includes that review by Paul Frere in full, he was unable to push past 6,300-6400rpm (redline 7,700rpm). The "endurance" development car that he was given to replace the test car initially given had nearly 28,000km (17,500 miles) on the clock. He was told that the engine on this endurance test car had not been touched since new, was standard, and only had routine servicing. He said that this car had a much freer engine with the extra miles, and he tested the acceleration and the top speen on the autostrada (freeway) between Bologna and Ferrara in both directions, with an average true maximum speed of 175.7mph. The test was true and printed in full in my book. BTW his comparison with acceleration runs was that the 365 GTB/4 managed 0-60mph in 5.8sec, 0-100 12.8 and standking km in 24.35, faster than the newer 365BB (5.4 sec, 10.5sec and 24.9sec).

[@Ovadose850]

I grew up with the 355,360,430,456,550,575,599, F50 & Enzo and these cars were always aspirational because not only were they extremely rare to see on the road but with the exception of the 456 they were drop dead gorgeous vehicles

[@SpartanDara]

I will not stand for this 456 slander, that's a great looking car too.

[@OhSome1HasThisName]

​@@SpartanDara yeah it's not a flashy car because that's not the point, it's a stylish 2+2 GT

[@bassandtrebleclef]

For context, I'm a few years older than Jason. There is a Ferrari dealer near me and nothing made in the last 15 years is appealing. They're now douchebag cars. They weren't in the 80s and 90s. The most desired cars on that F dealer are those from the 60s-80s.

[@nathanhagerman9928]

WHEN is the Stratos BTS+DTS episode coming out on the issimi channel! It's been EIGHT months and this Carmudgeon episode again referenced hyphen's European excursion to interact with some Italian legends. We got an episode on the Fulvia and new Evo37, but no episode on the original stratos?

[@babyfknblu]

as a gen zer, no, sorry, the closest ive come to caring about ferrari is when derek posts a video about a 70 year old one. i see too many horribly bodykitted 458/488/f8s zooming past me to give a hoot as it stands.

[@tally5k339]

Those bodykits turned me into a curmudgeonly Z-er also. The aftermarket wide bodies just ruin the otherwise graceful lines of any car they're fitted to imo.

[@porscheguy5848]

Great show. Love the in depth info about these old cars

[@zhnkbr]

So much chaos in that intro, I love it!

[@joepafjiga9015]

40:57 I am simply in awe of the 275 GTB/4. One of the best looking Ferraris ever imo

[@Garf2O]

I seen one of those doing 90 on the freeway heading to a car show i was going to, i think it was a blue 67' tan interior, very nice car

[@Trendyflute]

Jason made a rare miss describing a 120° V6 as perfectly balanced just like a boxer-6; a 120 degree V6 is the natural angle for an even firing V6 that allows for a strong crank with shared, non-split crank journals, it does not fix all the balance issues like a flat 6 does; it's still two primary-unbalanced inline-3s that don't cancel each other and that imbalance can only be cancelled by a balance shaft spinning the same rate as the crank. But then he nailed the distinction between non-boxer and boxer flat engines, so points for that! True boxers have crankpins for each cylinder that are opposed 180° from the prior one, which means you can't share crankpins in a true boxer until you have 12 cylinders, since each opposed inline-6 in a boxer-12 is balanced. It's a big reason why the flat-8 never caught on, nobody wanted to deal with 9 main bearings or a crank that complicated in any volume, and if done with shared crankpins V8-style it's a vibration nightmare. It also explains why nobody's even bothered to attempt a flat-10.

[@ElectricusTus]

I'm not even close to affording one now, but I'm with Leno on this one.

[@simonbrowne1534]

Born ‘92. I love the front engine Ferrari V12 meta but i’d rather build a Datsun 240Z with webers or Mikunis to get 9/10ths the good looks, 9/10th the driving and sound experience, with 1/2 the cylinders and 1/10th the price.

[@flacjacket]

Are you familiar with the OS Giken TC24-B1Z? If not then look it up, it's the dream engine for the 240Z, though you may have to bump the budget up to 1/5th.

[@simonbrowne1534]

@@flacjacket dude YES. That head with triple Mikuni’s would be vintage JDM heaven.

[@simonbrowne1534]

@@flacjacket there’s also a product being developed by Datsunworks called KN20 that uses Honda K-series design and parts to give the Nissan L-series DOHC.

[@985joe]

Absolutely hilarious intro! Gotta love these two goofballs.

[@RobSpoel]

Hey Jason, I’m surprised you find your Lotus so understeery. I have an S2 Exige and take it on track regularly. I often find myself steering in once and then just managing the yaw rate with twitchy steering corrections because it feels like it is so eager to turn! I suppose a lot of it is setup and parts (the LSD did a lot when I had that retrofitted). Just to compare against other experiences I had: 997 GT3 is lift off oversteer monster which is a great tool to have in your pocket to get the car rotated. 99 Viper GTS feels like a boat with all that weight over the front axle and I find it hard to find the right inputs to get it to rotate more than it wants to.

[@henrylee7316]

honestly as an 18 year old i couldn't care less about ferrari. the only car i care abt is the gtc4 lusso. i stopped caring after the laferrari. every car since the 488 has basically looked the same. but im also a weird 18 year old and also hate like every new car and dont keep up with whatever is the fastest thing anymore. all i want in a car is a natrually aspirated engine, manual, rwd, lsd

[@Dylanbforthree]

sounds like you need a miata

[@henrylee7316]

@@Dylanbforthree need a 1 car solution and im too tall. and a bit too slow. e36 m3 seems to be the best car fitting those needs ( i do have a bmw bias lol)

[@Dylanbforthree]

@@henrylee7316 BMW would also be my recommendation for those needs, miata is just easier on the wallet for an 18 year old

[@henrylee7316]

@@Dylanbforthree indeed it is lol

[@robpetersen87]

One way to test this is to drive around in like a JDM legend kinda car (Supra, FD, etc.) and drive around in a newer -- or even 90's-- Ferrari and see who asks you about each one. In my experience there's at least a 30+ year age gap on average. Younger people still love the Japanese stuff. Old guys are into the Ferraris. Having said that, average buyer of a Porsche, Lamborghini, and Ferrari is roughly 47 for all three brands. Will be interesting to see if that holds.

[@115jwalker]

DTS never missing an opportunity to throw shade on the 355 is securing his spot as my nemesis

[@llys3742]

Addendum on polar moment of inertia: a car turning in a neutral manner will benefit the most from having mass concentrated on the rear axle, not 50/50 distribution. A car's pivot point is extended from the rear axle (Ackermann steering geometry). In terms of barbells, the center point of the barbell is not in between the axles, but directly on the rear axle. However in real world, like Jason said, grip imbalance and instability make rear bias cars difficult.

[@llys3742]

Side note: Derek said 308 looks better the more you look, but I think the pre-facelift Mondial looks better the more you look, and the 308 doesn't. I don't like the frog eye pop ups on 308, and the bulbous front fenders sometimes look taller than the rear quarters. Also the front overhang is too long. Pre-facelift Mondial has Esprit style quad pop ups and a more formal coupe style overhangs and roofline. In black, you can overlook the monobrow hood vent and Autozone stick-on side ducts.

[@ChrisSaddlerSam]

"...Ferrari is a fading flame to younger enthousiasts!!!" SO TRUE

[@jorge8915]

Please have Jason as a guest more often i love him

[@tonyflorio3269]

Part of the attraction of exotics is that everyone knows you have something special. Ferrari and others may not sell a lot of vehicles, but part of the attraction is those of us who will never be able to afford one knows exactly what they are. When I was a teen, I knew and admired a 308/328 and the TR and I knew what a big jump up in price and exclusivity a TR was. Today, there are so many Ferraris (and the model designations continually change) that I have no idea what their lineup consists of or where each model fits in the hierarchy. And I'm interested in cars; for regular people I can't imagine they know which exotic is which and whether they view them as special -- or the vehicles of rich **holes! Limiting testing and comparisons means people like me stop knowing (and caring) about the product. I'm 56 and probably lust harder over the GR Corolla or Civic Type R than I do over any Ferrari as they are far more attainable and are an idealized version of the kind of cars I've actually owned and driven. New Ferraris are space ships by comparison. I'm no expert, but this feels like the kind of thing that limits the brand over time, especially in an age where there are even more exclusive, tech-forward exotics coming to market (that aren't press shy).

[@dougrobinson8602]

Well, the GR Corolla, GR86, and Civic Type R are cars that are fun and approachable. Miata also. They are neat little passion projects from engineers who love to drive. You can approach their limits without serving jail time, and they're economical to drive daily. Ferraris are none of those things. The douche factor is off the chart as well. Any of the Ferrari GT's from the sixties would suit me better than a modern one.

[@christschool]

I'm 55. The GR Corolla and Civic Type R are for kids, not people our age. I think you are trying to justify your current position and financial position than you are making any legitimate argument concerning "approachability". What is that anyway? Approachability? If you could afford a Ferrari, you'd never make that statement.

[@tylerbecker3348]

I sympathize, but you nailed the point home at the end. Ferrari doesn't care about offering up their cars or pleasing enthusiasts. They're a merch company and will line their pockets full with profits from that and the upcoming Purosangue.

[@fillertext778]

glad to see the return of unhinged carmudgeon show openings!

[@JuanLopez-kw9of]

For Jay Leno, a preeminent car collector , to not own a single Ferrari, tells you all you need to know about how the brand rubs some people the wrong way

[@freddaniali]

I don't think that our friend Jay is telling us the entire story about what happened to him with Ferrari.

[@JuanLopez-kw9of]

@@freddaniali Jay did an interview with Jason Stein on Cars &Culture where he explains why he doesn't own a Ferrari Check it out

[@freddaniali]

@@JuanLopez-kw9of I'll check it out, thanks. I know that many people complain about Ferrari and their dealerships; however, it is a long game process and most people don't like the wait times.

[@amarjit_singh_]

@@JuanLopez-kw9of Oh please, he's definitely not telling the entire story. He basically has a deep 30 year old personal grudge on Ferrari because of one particular dealership denied him the special treatment! He was talking about Mondials, when was the last time those things were on sale? Let me think, some 30 years ago. But while this was happening, he did a video with his Ford GT and said the application process and ownership rules were good and justified, while it's known that Ford considered how many Ford cars an applicant owned in the application process. You see where I'm going - when the Ferrari dealership asked him to own a few Ferrari's before getting the special Ferrari, he became very grumpy. Very biased from him but understandable given it was the Ford GT and he's an American.

[@keithsclassicgarage1133]

As a Ferrari owner, I have to say the car is amazing. I do my own maintenance, but dread visits to the Dealer. I am not comfortable going through the showroom. A tense experience. Very different than the way Mercedes treats me. Like a king.

[@johnbacon4997]

What Ferrari do you own?

[@6SpeedTA95]

Jason nailed it as usual. I grew up LOVING Ferrari. Now that I'm in a position to seriously consider one they make it impossible to buy. Have to deal with dealership bullshit, have to deal with bullshit buying a used one. They don't want to compete. They don't want customers who appreciate cars...fuck that noise. I still cheer for Ferrari on F1 race day but bloody hell they're such a turnoff. I'll probably never own one because of the nonsense. Porsche on the other hand? I'll own one within 12 - 15 months the way it looks.

[@freddaniali]

Don't give up, it's worth it. Porsches are cool but they aren't the same.

[@markcollins457]

Jay Leno also made this point . You have made a valid point and the Sirocco gives me joy for the few dollars that i can scrape together so the Ferrari conversation is above my pay grade.😊

[@gregmayled]

fantastic episode

[@PigglyWigglyDeluxe]

Jason, I remember a video you appeared in on the TST channel. It was a review of Mike Musto’s Wagoneer. You had appeared out of the backseat and everyone laughed. I think I missed a joke. What was the joke?

[@JasonCammisa]

Hey, I remember doing that but I think it was just the absurdity that I would have been hiding in the way back. I genuinely don't remember if there was another joke to it - don't think so!

[@timmietz]

I grew up loving Ferraris. I own 3 (F430 6MT, 430 SCUD, 812GTS). I was on the fence about the 458 and really disliked the 488 and F8. I had the pleasure of driving 296GTB on track a few months ago and I can tell that this is the best mid-engine Ferrari since the 430 generation. Other than Haptic Touch everything madness, it is basically perfect!

[@matthew55793]

This episode is a good ad for 296gtb the car and for Porsche the company.

[@nicholasmaternowski2462]

I’m a middle school teacher. Ferrari is not everyone’s dream car. If anything it’s like hellcats (obviously), idk how much kids are thinking about exotica.

[@NewbombTurk.]

I was born in 1971, my "poster cars" were a black '71 Euro Spec Daytona (not the fake miami vice one), a Countach, and a 959 Porsche. I could never find a poster of a 512 BB/BBi otherwise that would have been up there as well.

[@johan5293]

Great podcast, thank you, guys! You mentioned Puro Sandro or what they called it. Just for information, they are all gone, and a whole number of cars are sold right now

[@ekscalybur]

If their future cars will be twin turbo V6s, should we blame the younger generation if they don't give a shit about Ferrari?

[@miamigt4922]

I love the history, beauty, and mystique of Ferrari. I own a GT4RS, but have owned 2 Ferraris in the past. Comparing Ferrari vs Porsche dealers, car clubs, community, track day support, servicing, and robustness when pushed hard are all at a higher level with Porsche. It’s not only that, there’s a lot about Ferrari that leaves a bad taste in your mouth. They make it seem like they’re doing you a favor. You feel it in the service, sales and parts departments. I’ve worked with service advisors at 4 Florida Porsche dealerships in different parts of the state and each have been excellent. The community and dealer support is a huge part of the overall experience and in that respect Porsche wins hands down from my experience. One thing I’ve learned from having owned either a Porsche or Ferrari back and forth since 1985, enjoying your car with other like-minded enthusiasts increases your satisfaction of it. From the attitudes of the management/dealers and the depth of people around it, the Porsche zeitgeist is one the best of all brands (Corvette is another). I track a 981S Cayman, which is also my daily. At Sebring, the only on-site mechanic during my track days are dedicated to Porsches so if you get into some mechanical trouble you have immediate help. Most of the entrants are in either Caymans or 911s. Porsche also has people who just want a cool toy to park in front of whatever is the hot club of the moment. But there are a lot of owners who get out, hit the track, do autocross events, Porsche Club drivers training, etc. I appreciate when a car can get through multiple sessions and not overheat or have warning lights go on. For every $300K Ferrari, you’ll see a 10 to 1 ratio of $300K+ 911 GT2RSs, GT3RSs, GT3s. When I retire, I’ll trade my 981S towards a 328 GTB, enjoy the charm and charisma of a beautiful, fun to drive Ferrari.

[@christschool]

You'll always have a larger community of support with a car produced in the 100's of thousands "Porsche" versus one produced in the 1000's. That's not really an apples vs. apples comparison. However, I do agree with you on the dealer, part's and service attitudes of Ferrari dealers. They all act like they are doing you a favor and as a Ferrari owner, I share that view as well. However, 911's don't touch all 5 driving senses, but only realy 2-3 at most and why a Porsche is a more mundane driving experience than a Ferrari. There is a trade off.

[@memememine1]

I'm 24. When I was in elementary school I was really into the Ferrari 360 and F430 and 458. As I got older and more into cars I started getting into German sedans and Japanese sports cars. During this time most Ferraris had the V8 turbo which was quite a boring engine compared to the McLarens Lamborghinis and Porsches. I would bet many younger than I would have forgotten all the older na cars. This was the time when Ferrari was not allowing any comparisons. It is still possible to find older comparison tests against other supercars. There are even old best motoring videos of Ferraris wheel to wheel racing against other jdm and European supercars.

[@joeracer302]

Just go to your local library. They will have copies of car magazines. They’re a great source of comparisons, but some magazines had bias and also weren’t always super critical of cars that probably deserved more criticism.

[@christschool]

There are no NA McLarens. You destroyed your own argument.

[@jasonmoyer]

I think part of the reason people think of Ferrari taking forever to release a mid-engined car is because of how long it took them to do it in racing. When the Coopers showed up and started winning, Enzo had his famous line about how the horse pulls the cart and not the other way around. When they finally introduced a mid-engined F1 car in 1961, they were basically the last team to do so.

[@Poorschedriver]

There is definitely a problem in the industry with people flipping cars, so I won't fault Ferrari for trying to fix that problem. However their brand has been pretentions AF since about when the F430 came out, which is a blessing and a curse. The blessing is they've created a brand identity second to none. The curse is that so many people have been turned off by their BS that they just won't deal with the brand. The maybe could get away with that 10-15 years ago, but now they have to evolve their rules, at least for journalists. They need to realize that anyone can just go buy a plaid or a lucid and basically kick the stuffing out of any ICE car in a straight line. Convince me to buy the car because of something it does outside of the instrumented testing, but allow the testing because it's customary as a benchmark. Furthermore, Purosang will likely be their best hit yet, they just need to market it correctly. IMO the best way they can market that vehicle is to boldly state that it is wholly a Ferrari product, and is not a platform shared vehicle, like it's largest competitor is.

[@aguruattapiano]

I'm afraid to say most kids today would probably take a Cybertruck poster for their bedroom instead of an SF90 🤷‍♂️

[@dct124]

Jason this is how you get around Ferrari. One Take. We can time the cars via CC or just the tape 📼 I think Ferrari wants Chris Harris F40 esque montage's.

[@christschool]

I am a 55 year old Ferrari owner. I think this is an excellent subject to discuss. I came "of age" in the 80's. This was when I had car posters on the wall in my room. I grew up putting Lamborghini's on my wall like the Countach. This was my "hero" car. I didn't give much thought to Ferrari. For younger people, the articulating doors were the primary reason I favored Lamborghini over the Ferrari. However, as I grew older and learned more about the Lamborghini and Ferrari worlds, I found myself favoring Ferrari. Lamborghini's are straight lines and Ferrari is all about curves. The ownership experience is different as well. Ferrari does a good with developing a culture around Ferrari through its dealers and the Ferrari Club of America. Ferrari keeps you a part of the "family" after purchase. Lamborghini's community is much less developed. There are different driving experiences as well. Lamborghini's, all Lamborghini's, have very limited forward view because of the sweep of the A pillars. They also tend to attract a very different buyer than Ferrari. On the used market differences, Ferrari owners tend to be very meticulous with their maintenance, whereas Lamborghini owners are not as consistent with getting required maintenance done on their cars. My impression is that Ferrari owners are generally well educated and involved in professional services or in a multi-generational family businesses and Lamborghini owners suddenly came into money and are more concerned with letting everyone know than a Ferrari owner. This observation of course doesn't apply to every owner, but its my general impression in being in the exotic world for several years now.

[@jimiverson3085]

The Lancia D50 was a V8. Ascari's death may have precipitated Lancia quitting grand prix racing, but Lancia didn't have the money to develop the car. And Ascari went on that drive at Monza not long after he went into the harbor at Monaco in the Lancia.

[@_que]

24 min mark, me feel the same, preferring front engine with 50/50, short wheelbase, & square tires. Behind engine rides, I too find the front is too light, managing understeer becomes priority, n understand the slow in fast out theory, but just can't giddy about it...

[@Photoandcargeek]

Could you make an episode on why you hate the F355? And more interestingly why it is such an odd one in the mid V8 line up? I own one, love the look not the drive and also prefer my 328 and Porsche. I also drove evening from 308 to 430 and I don't understand what went through Ferrari's mind when they did the 355. Yes it sounds the best by a country mile (I think) and it is the least involving drive by the same amount, I compare it to a lesser R129 (which I also owned) in a drag suit... A stunning drag suit. And is a challenge conversation or a "modificata" mod solves the issues?

[@hduncan2587]

Pretty sure they've talked about that multiple times at some length.

[@Photoandcargeek]

@@hduncan2587 I heard multiple times criticism about the f355 but not why the F355 is such an oddball etc, what happened at Ferrari and how can it be modified

[@AlainSTO]

I thought for sure the Dino was named that way because he and an engineer persuaded Enzo to make a line of racing cars with V6 and V8 engines, so they took on his name.

[@scottbowers7248]

Mondial 500 was a 4cylinder race car that sounded amazing

[@eugenux]

the 296 gtS is absolutely gorgeous.. b not that the B looks any worse.. but, my G.O.D., the S is gorgeous on an epic level. I think it might be the beautiful car currently in production.

[@Diecastclassicist]

The last great Ferrari was the 288 GTO. (52 y/o). By the way, my favorite engine sound ever is the Matra V12 from the 1970s Le Mans racers - would you do an episode on Matra someday? Lots of interesting stories there, including the Djet….

[@rsr789]

I disagree, the F50 is pure Ferrari through and through: manual, NA V12, designed to be driven, and hard.

[@cbca6567]

The 288GTO and subsequent F50 although excellent in mechanical layout and driving pleasure are just race cars with zero practicality which in the real world is needed in my opinion. None of them have any storage for going anywhere. The older Ferrari 250 GT cars were cars with practicality that could be driven to the racetrack, win and then return by road home

[@fraserwright9482]

Good point about the age gap move. Young people owned an Alfa, older guy's had a Maserati. Like most Ferrari moments no one asked what is best for it until someone else makes a better example.

[@Nick22257]

I work at a classics and specialty consignment shop where i am lucky enough to poke and prod things from the early 1900s to new allocation cars like speedster/gt2 ect. I daily drive an S2000 35,000+ miles a year. Ferrari’s interest me significantly less than not only their competition, but also most other cars. Obviously i am not in the target market but getting up close in personal with things like 308, 328, 355, 360, f430, gtc4 ect did not intrigue me to learn more about them like a lot of our inventory does

[@GM-fh5jp]

I've always loved how car presenters think they are professional comedians also. What a train wreck first few minutes. Does it get better?

[@robertspadaro4329]

I know that, at least in my case, desirability can sometimes be linked to attainability. It something is so utterly out of reach for a lot of people, it's difficult to really be that passionate about it.

[@brockjennings]

I'm amazed Ferrari doesn't come with a chastity belt around the steering wheel.

[@Michael_Lorenson]

Excellent discussion, thanks. Opinions: 1. If you are going to flirt with the limits on, say, Appalachian mountain roads, analog mid-engine and rear-engine cars are for experts only. Throw in a big, laggy single-turbocharger and they can become nightmarish, based my experiences with both a 1991 Toyota MR2 Turbo and also a 1990 Porsche 911 Turbo. 2. Enzo Ferrari only cared about _winning._ The company also became a completely different thing after his death, under Luca di Montezemolo.

[@ScoutingForZen]

Jason and Derek, you hit the nail on the head with why Ferrari particularly annoys me. I understand why all brands want to protect their images. But if you are artificially doing so by choking any possibility of independent testing and comparison, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. Is Ferrari that unconfident in its products' abilitiy to perform? Couple that with the alleged stories about what happened with the EB110 and that F430-turned-Stratos, and you have the reasons why this 30-year-old only has interest in the 308 GT4 and a gated-manual 550 Maranello

[@dallasbrown-ew8yk]

I’m 28. I’d love a Ferrari. I like the way a lot of them look, and apparently they drive great too. That sounds wonderful. But sadly, few people my age will be able to afford them. Even the older ones are too much of a stretch for anyone I know in my age group. Also, not sure if I’m considered “young” to this standard. But point being, I don’t see people being interested in cars they just don’t see themselves ever being able to afford.

[@szajlok]

I'm nearly forty, I feel like a kid (sometimes), and I do give a f... about Ferrari. This brand means a lot to me.

[@williamfischer3990]

I’ve always thought that Flat-Planes sound great at high RPMs and Cross-Planes are incredible at low RPMs.

[@davidedwards7746]

I disagree with regard to the Countach/Boxer usability. I worked for ACI and was fortunate to drive quite a few 512 Boxers and put in thousands of miles in the Countach. I much preferred the Countach in any situation. But that said, the M1 was much better than either of them!

[@nickzhang7862]

Used to get excited about 360,430,599,459. Now just meh. After I start going to track regularly I realized the only cars people really take to track are Miata’s, bmws, Camaros, vets, and Porsches. Porsche for the win!

[@scuderia_team]

The ferrari 412 were sold in usa. There is an America spec and while rare, are around in the US

[@MP_Single_Coil]

Jason revealed that he is not an idiot with the polar momentum inertia conversation. 😂

[@zacht9447]

Crazy that Cadillac was the first flat plane crank v8

[@JK061996]

8:04 the last time a mid-engined berlinetta drag raced a Golf it didn't end so well for the Ferrari

[@TYAC_red]

Ferrari didn’t care about his customers, thus, neither do they need so today. The question is not egotistical enough. It is passion red, not calculation purple.

[@gunmataka3708]

Please elaborate on the NSX.

[@gsmith207]

I sub’ed like any idiot would! I’m in! So funny! All we need is a little dope and whiskey and away we go!

[@scottbowers7248]

Ferrari also raced the mid-engine 250 LM in 1965

[@Nomikeal]

I play a lot of arcade racing games (not sims) and I rarely see other players driving Ferraris ,it's usually a heavily modified 90s JDM or some super fast hyper car. It's completely anecdotal but I think Ferrari may be at risk of becoming an old man brand similar to Jaguar

[@nirfz]

Honestly, if i buy a car, and the manufacturer wants to tell me who i am allowed to lend my car they for sure lost a customer. I don't mean a drunk or criminal person but for the car to be tested if it matches what the company claims. Actually i think it is fraud, not "optimiziation" or "cheating" if they refuse the car to be tested. Such a company i would not want anything to do with. But they find enough people who want to show off something expensive that they stay in the market with their bubble.

[@johnwilliammaxwell5044]

With a small handful of exceptions, all mid-engined cars are either fast, fun, or at least supposed to be one of those. Even if some front-engined, rear-wheel drive cars are dynamically superior, you'd need specific knowledge of that car to know.

[@gianni_schicchi]

My 15-year-old nephew is into anything that drifts. He knows what an AE86 is but not much about "supercars". Ferraris aren't really on Instagram like that.

[@sanman1188]

Is Ferrari's future in jeopardy? Yes. Is it just their image? Maybe but I doubt it. Growing up in the age of Testarossas and F40s, Ferrari really lost their appeal after the 360 with the 458 being the one exception. The bigger issue is that in a world of Tesla electric power, what is a Ferrari and why pay the premium?

[@hduncan2587]

When McLaren and Lamborghini started making more mass-production alternatives, that didn't help Ferrari's case. I'm 36 and grew up half an hour north-east of Modesto, and at most would see a Ferrari once every six months, if that. Corvette's and 911's, sure thing. But come into the mid 2000's with the Murcielago, Gallardo, and fax-machine McLaren's, and voila! Given I'm just in a giant Modesto now (Sacramento), I see how different the market has become since then. In the '90's we had video games flaunting these exotics, but eventually it started infiltrating super sedans as well... M5's started creeping into the fray of 911's and Corvette's in Need For Speed, and eventually AMG started becoming a force to be reckoned with (and unfortunately cloned poorly far too often, and a bit diluted by this point).

[@amarjit_singh_]

Ferrari is still selling more cars than Lamborghini and remember Lamborghini sells the Urus. McLaren still has some catching up to do with both.

[@john-vy1ml]

Wait til Ferrari sees the new whistling diesel video.

[@_que]

Wished Ferrari made a road going V10

[@swordmonkey6635]

My favorite "FU Ferrari" story was when TopGear was getting stonewalled by Ferrari about getting to test the Enzo. After running up against the factory, TopGear reached out to some Enzo owners to borrow their cars. Ferrari got wind of it and forbade the owners from doing it on threat of severing all future relationships with Ferrari. Only one Enzo owner had the balls to give TopGear his Enzo to test: Nick Mason, the drummer from Pink Floyd. He flew himself in a helicopter to the test track just accentuate the middle finger he was giving to Ferrari's threats. Baller move.

[@jimiverson3085]

Of course you can fit 7 kids in a sports car. That's what roof racks are for.

[@Forndrome]

Why the fascination with the F12? It's too heavy, too expensive and probably not durable enough to track on a regular basis, and it's way too fast and too big to enjoy on backroads. Is it just because it sounds amazing?

[@SpartacusSF]

Good for you and the Icons team for telling Ferrari to pound sand. As a child of the 70s, I grew up watching 250 GTOs battle Cobras at the track. For me, the bloom on the Ferrari rose started fading with the F50 testing restrictions. It seems so unbelievably lame, like the pretty girl setting the guest list for someone else’s party to make sure she wouldn’t be shown up.

[@iamspyvspy3077]

Don't give an F about Ferrari, the last one that excited me was the F430...

[@R3LF13]

I grew up obsessing over Ferraris of the 80s and arguing with my elementary school friends about why Ferrari has more pedigree and prestige than Lamborghini. Now, as an adult, I've flipped 180 and have a pretty negative impression of the brand precisely because of the corporate attitude talked about here. Fragile egos, off-putting pretentiousness, and distain for your customers do not fans make.

[@michaelking6596]

The stooge brothers intro episode

[@Tablet-k9s]

Enzo is definitely rolling after the Purosangue

[@ukwan]

You know what has a really low polar moment of inertia? a spinning top, they're designed to spin. You design a car with a really low polar moment of inertia it's going to spin if you provoke it and keep spinning. I've owned one mid engined car it was a Porsche Boxster and I can say i'm totally over the mid engined thing, front engined rwd is the best for the average Joe. Even rear engined RWD is more friendly than mid engined, a 911 gives you all sorts of warnings before it goes but when it does.. It's like a hammer swinging, good luck catching that. I never spun my 911, but I certainly spun my Boxster and at such a low speed nobody would ever believe it even happened if I told them.

[@swordmonkey6635]

The story I heard about the Dino branding was yes, it was named after Enzo's son and was going to be an "affordable" sub brand of Ferrari so they could make money off volume sales of a "cheaper" European sports car without dropping the prestige of the Ferrari name into mass volume sports cars. It was going to be known as the "Dino" and wasn't meant to be a "Ferrari Dino". Hence no prancing pony badging.

[@CoreyGolphenee]

5:47 it changed at the 360 imo, they lost a generation of kids to Lamborghini when it came to poster cars, because they Gallardo was just more striking. I also think that they started really turning the GTs into muscle cars at that point as well.