Is Fox REALLY The BEST? - Super Smash Bros. Melee

[@lincolnbarron1485]

What if this video was just 1 second, and it was Kira saying "yes."

[@SSBMTutorials]

+wombat hunter If we were allowed to have troll videos I'd totally make one like that then upload the real one

[@AlainReyes]

+SSBM Tutorials dont let anyone tell you what to do

[@SSBMTutorials]

well i mean like. we COULD do it but it wouldnt help the channel

[@meyers323]

Kira did you make this video just to plug your Pichu beating someone at the end?

[@SSBMTutorials]

+Kyle Meyers shh dont tell anyone

[@LuckyHamburger]

+SSBM Tutorials at the beginning how come you had the second-to-last tier list instead of the current one? edit: plus at 2:08 there is about 4-10 frames showing the current one?

[@SSBMTutorials]

for all mistakes, message my editor kellen, it's always his fault

[@LuckyHamburger]

SSBM Tutorials No Johns, man.

[@iggyignorant]

+SSBM Tutorials tbh both tier lists are out of date

[@ThaRixer]

I think if Falco's recovery was the same as Fox' the discussion would be way more interesting.

[@davjags]

If falco can be considered by some as the best even with his shitty recovery, he'd be stupid OP with a fox like recovery

[@trevorrichmond4850]

+Justin Epstein Falco has an AMAZING recovery up close he's damn near impossible to edge guard right next to the stage because illusion comes out so fast and all the different distances you can do, from far away tho.... it's kinda ass.

[@willsmith7594]

+Justin Epstein idk what game you've been playing but falcos recovery is amazing

[@icebear6757]

I still think fox would be better because he has a lot of more options overall and better speed

[@trevorrichmond4850]

TheEazyDI if you have perfect DI i'm inclined to agree

[@Agent7300]

who is the narrator? i dont already know

[@cameronjackson9467]

+FaTeRiseClan damn neither do i

[@MrFMFilms]

+FaTeRiseClan Kira

[@cameronjackson9467]

MrFMFilms we were bring sarcastic

[@tms6711]

+FaTeRiseClan You already know

[@cameronjackson9467]

Timothy S. shit, got me dude, i do already know

[@xredkirbyx]

Fox is low tier trash. All he has is a fucking useless blue reflector, and a gun that dosent even make opponents flinch. Kirby on the other hand, can combo really well, has giant circle feet, and is a gay vacuum cleaner. It's pretty obvious that kirby is the best.

[@xredkirbyx]

+Dark I just gave you reasons why he is the best. Don't tell me that he's bad.

[@yplushes]

PREACH!

[@ernestorivera7346]

hey his blue reflecter can cgain and can kill you really early

[@yplushes]

*****​ He's probably just joking.

[@xredkirbyx]

+Dark calm down m9, ofc I was joking. I know that kirby isn't that good in melee but I had to make a joke comment anyways.

[@mickeymighty1866]

His character model on melee is so much better he looks a badass all serious then on brawl they made him into a cute little stuffed baby animal look alike

[@mickeymighty1866]

Plus he sounds better on melee. on brawl or the newer smash bros now he sounds like scrappy doo, from scooby doo

[@Pg--xq5bj]

+Space Dandy Tr00

[@supaboy339]

+Space Dandy uhh wat are you talking about in melee he speaks gibberish for example : FIIIIYYYAA!, Tote Ya!,Missshun Compreet but in brawl he had a proper voice actor but in the new Smash4 his voice actor is a bit childish and weird they really messed the starfox cast when it came to voices .......😒

[@MinecrafterK3N]

+julius alexander Fox's voice actor is Japan's Satochi Shinobu. Fox has no change in voice when the language is changed from English to Japanese, which supports the fact that his original VA is, in fact, Japanese. The way in which Fox speaks in Melee has a slight Japanese accent in it. So, Fox is speaking in Engrish. A few examples Firefox: Fa-i-ya Post-fight: Mi-shi-yu-n Ko-n-pu-ri-t(o)

[@supaboy339]

MinecrafterK3N okay that explains why fox's voice sounded strange but why do marth and roy still speak in Japanese to this day and fox and falco sound worse in smash4 when they sounded good in brawl ?

[@Treesicle]

Your video quality has gone up quite a bit. Very nice job dude!

[@AlainReyes]

+Treesicle yes indeed

[@someguy2350]

Oh, hi!

[@pIayingwithmahwii]

its worse now

[@gamerfreak5665]

Yay you used my 20XX video! Thanks for sharing it!

[@bostonband12]

the best character is Ness, 20EB is upon us.

[@logasoba]

*20OK

[@bostonband12]

Loga Soba lol

[@lucifersam7946]

*199X

[@risechi14]

20PK

[@lapplandkun9273]

a skilled ness can beat any fox

[@hadi7474]

A skilled roy can beat any fox

[@derpingtoast]

+hadi7474 so a skilled roy can beat mango? Kappa

[@AskWaffles]

And a skilled fox and beat any skilled roys. This is why tier lists exists.

[@SuperTheguy1234]

+TheChaosWaffle Joke your head

[@thatdankguy5140]

nice meme

[@2Minihats]

+nihulisandowner you should've said armada Mango is a turd.

[@KoopaKev]

If each player is playing their character to their fullest, it's really no contest imo

[@roblee815]

You have no idea how happy the tf2 reference made me

[@SSBMTutorials]

+r0blee it was all for you!

[@jjthan8772]

same here :)

[@xProjectCINEMAx]

i feel like one major thing is fox's recovery, vertical and horizontal, are so amazing. I feel like if falco had fox's recovery then he would be hands down number one

[@Lampaluile]

You should explain why the shine is simply so overpower many people don't seem to understand how good it is! Most people think it's extremly good but it's even more op than that.

[@Arkimbald]

+Expand Dong It's pretty okay. While is it instant and has one frame of invulnerability, it's still short ranged. On paper, an instant attack may seem impossible to keep up with, you're still playing a human opponent with limitations on their mental acuity; You can bait and punish shine, even from your shield.

[@SSBMTutorials]

+Expand Dong We explain it in our Fox Overview video =)

[@DowntownWithBrown]

The newest tier list (published December 10, 2015) has Fox in his own tier at #1 (SS).

[@SSBMTutorials]

+datautisticgamer Every top player has different ideas of what the tier list is like, those are just general ideas and not concrete truths.

[@DowntownWithBrown]

I know that; I should have noted that it was the Smashboards tier list.

[@NIneDJcali]

+SSBM Tutorials dude this is Melee......the game has been out for 15 years, and there is no "general ideas" in this game anymore. It's pretty much concrete truths.

[@SSBMTutorials]

I strongly disagree

[@xavibun]

+JakobRW Exactly

[@TerraceLuster]

Fox is the best character in the game in theory, and I believe that much to be incontestable. But I do think a weakness of his that is often overlooked is not just the technical consistency required to play him, but also the mental consistency. The fortitude required to space correctly with Fox, a character with practically no range, is a hugely undervalued skill Fox players possess. This is most prominent against characters with excellent projectiles like Falco or great range like Marth. This combined with the fact that Fox's punish game consists of short burst-type combos makes him harder to play mentally than most people are led to think.

[@mrsuperawesomememe]

5:55 YO

[@switch3600]

+Dylan Dear WALK UP SLOWLY

[@Fraude9]

+MostPowerfulCharizard AND DOWN SMASH?

[@MASHKingmaker]

+DAHypersonix1617 HE REALLY

[@chillywilly4304]

+Xxav_z DID THOUGH!

[@waffles5306]

+MetalSam25 OH HAX

[@Yungseamus]

Interesting comparison with the scout in TF2 because in the current meta in the competitive 6v6 format, he is easily the class that can put out the most potential damage and has the best mobility overall

[@Kingfishbish]

Fox has a good or neutral matchup with EVERYONE in the game, that is why I think he is the best

[@waffleKING44]

Same with falco

[@Kingfishbish]

hmmm he certainly doesnt have any noticeable bad matchups

[@retromario96]

+waffleKING44 Falco has more even matchups than Fox. An even matchup for Falco is usually a winning one for Fox.

[@tyler-xo3rb]

+Joey Scott Eh, Peach and Puff

[@Kingfishbish]

Tyler Leutwyler you think puff beats fox?

[@XCWARRIOR91]

At the highest level with both players playing at their best level I think it's Rock Paper Scissors between marth/fox/Falco/sheik and outside characters having the edge when they have the right matchup and maps to go with them. It's fluid and that's what keeps us playing the game, everyone pushing their character and learning as much as they can about everyone else's weaknesses

[@jenniferlott9656]

Ness is best character in Melee because his recovery is like the totally best in the game

[@beeWesley]

+J Lo I actually really like Ness, but definitely not because of his recovery. Haha. I know this was a joke, jsyk. Just thought I would give Ness some love.

[@Chmmr]

+beeWesley Ness is awesome, but I main him and G+W in brawl

[@chungster239]

+J Lo actually kirby is the best cuz he has multiple jumps. and he has a better up b than jigglypuff's Kappa

[@KageumiUmikage]

No, that goes to donkey kong obviously

[@thegigmasterjr6643]

+J Lo Yea but in 4 little mac has the best recovery.

[@Spin793]

Thanks for this video, it is a much better description of the pros and cons of Fox than anything I have seen before.

[@crazy1000as]

roy is the best cuz: -he has tehfire -his sword is stronger then marths -he speaks japanese -dat spike though -chain grabs 4 dayz -dat f-smash -hes our boy -dat d-tilt -sethlon is cool -up-air combos 4 dayz -up-b burns dat fox good

[@lapplandkun9273]

-anime swordsman

[@DoomJoy666]

The side b spike? And uair you can smash di

[@NicholasSunderland]

@@DoomJoy666 he was probably talking about his tipper upsmash spike

[@Trance_Kitsune]

5:22 LMAO looks like the stress of watermarking paid off.

[@yoshiyo660]

Come on guys what's with this bickering about Fox when we all know that Pichu is obviously the best character in the game XD

[@Cardboxx]

I was expecting "the only phrase that I can find fitting enough to end this video is... A skilled Roy can beat any fox"

[@Orioxified]

Well i main pichu in melee (seriously), the main reason is because i main pikachu in every smash game, so pichu wasn't a huge move for me since he's very similar. And hey, if i place well in local tournaments and i can beat all of my friends ;) then why not

[@EpicBzzBoy3]

+Orion Allman Yeah man! Another Pichu main! Well, I usually only use Pichu on fastfallers because Pichu can chaingrab and juggle them to hell and back but hey I at least use him as something. XD

[@nessfromeagleland4864]

+Bizz That's kinda why I main Ness in Melee. Getting up throw and/or up air chains on spacies is so satisfying.

[@mcfyat4711]

smash has so many factors we will never know because it comes down to skill and how comfortable a player feels in certain situations

[@Kzar5678]

4:48 Yo, I'm gonna need a source for that drawing.

[@SSBMTutorials]

+Galen idk i just googled it. maybe a melee hell thing

[@zoonerzet]

+Galen Here you go imgur.com/FSKlv87

[@mrmarvelmilitant]

you should make more of these character metagame videos it's really insightful and useful

[@Gotmilk0112]

Ehh, IMO there really is no absolute #1 "best" character. There's just "high tier" characters that are all around the same general level as each other. There are way too many variables involved to accurately define a "#1 absolute best" character.

[@Arbitear]

I main both falco and fox. The main reason why fox it harder to control is because It's like having max sensitivity in a first person shooter. Sometimes you go too fast. Falco has the same move sets as fox he's just easier to control. But if you have two people who know how to use their characters (in this senario) like fox and falco I think fox would win cuz he is hard to keep up with. At the end of the day skill does not depend on not so much the character but the player.

[@LazyLee]

Shoutouts to MagicScrumpy :^)

[@yukicraft3210]

Right before this I saw VGBC upload a bunch of Fox ditto tourney sets lol.

[@Jsrf88]

Just give Falco Fox recovery then GG falco is now best char no argument

[@trevorrichmond4850]

When I mained sheik I johned about fox so hard. Now that I've switched to marth i'm sometimes excited to combo the piss out of fox.

[@ThisIsWEB]

rip 2013 Mike Haze

[@Krisspear]

Awesome video! Never thought that his fullhop was that good, but makes a great point. I personally find it hard to think any other characters are better. To me its: Fox 1st, Falco 2nd, Marth 3rd, Puff4th, Sheik 5th, Falcon 6th, Peach 7th and ICs 8th. Fox and Falco are in a tier higher than the others as they really dont have any bad match ups.

[@PoisonXLZ]

Shoutouts to Kira's Pichu.

[@kkokay4]

While I do genuinely believe fox is the best I don't think it's by a wide margin. And the biggest reason he's the best wasn't talked about much in this video. Its because of his matchups. Fox has no bad matchups. His hardest matchups are probably falco, marth and samus, but they're not lop sided at all. If the fox out plays them they will win. Where as other characters just have terrible matchups. Falco for example has a much worse time vs floaties. Like puff and peach. And on top of that his recovery is complete garbage and he can die off a single move. I wouldnt even consider falco to be second best honestly. I'd give him third or fourth, since he just gets rekt way harder than fox and has nothing off of a grab.

[@smittyyagermanjenson2067]

Having a matchup strength or weakness isn't a part of the character though, that's the effect of the character's kit. He has no bad matchups because he's good, it's not that he's good because he has no bad matchups

[@kkokay4]

Smitty yagermanjenson No dude. You're completely wrong. Its about how characters interact with each other. Falco arguably wins versus fox, or is atleast 50-50. Fox undeniably wins versus puff. So shouldn't falco win against puff? Well he doesn't, and its because he has no reliable means to kill puff other than spaced bair at very high percents. Where as puff can kill falco at any percent a million different ways. If every character had a kill fox button (they kinda already do) then fox wouldn't be viable no matter how good his kit is. Having good matchups in the game that they are in is a huge part of what makes a character good. And its honestly the best thing about fox, cuz hes literally the only character that has good matchups across the board. So you can just main only him, and not worry about getting trunched in certain matchups like other characters would. Example = Leffen.

[@RamzaBeoulves]

+Morgan Murphy Fox doesn't have bad match-ups because he's good, not the other way around. Fox's good match-ups are the direct result of his better kit, better movement, speed and wide range of options which makes him a better character by default.

[@kkokay4]

Ramza Beoulves Nope

[@Oakwin_mb]

+Smitty yagermanjenson No, fox is good because he has no bad matchups. Characters strengths are relative, from sheer data puff looks like shit, but because of how her matchups go, she's good.

[@justwungo]

So, here's the thing. Fox is definitely the best character by far. BUT, 20XX won't happen. Time spent just focusing on the vs Fox matchup is time not spent on any other matchups. If a person focuses solely on Fox Dittos, they WILL get rusty on other match ups, and at some point, will get their behind massacred by a Marth ir Falco etc.

[@justwungo]

*or

[@AcidYoru]

when it happens, I'll play Kirby in melee

[@SomersBugtopia]

I mean, yeah. 20XX is more of a joke centered around tiers. Marth, Peach and Puff will always be too viable to ever put under the rug.

[@supershoo4518]

best by far? I don't think so. I mean, the top four are heavily debated and just as many people think falco is the best compared to fox. On the melee tier list fox is put into his own tier, the first time ever he's been in his own tier. And there has been heavy debate whether or not he should even have his own tier. He's not like brawl metaknight, the tier isn't built around who has the best chance of beating him. imo fox should be dropped to S tier like the rest of the top tiers, even if he is better than falco or marth, it's only by a small amount.

[@hahahalala-i1x]

If we can find a new setup for their grabs, Ice Climbers could climb the Tier list

[@morganlak4337]

lol good luck

[@wilfredfegelein8215]

+JandSand thank god we won't fuck icies

[@kaiiboraka]

I believe, for the most part, that there's a sort of Rock-Paper-Scissors relationship between the top 3. Namely, and I'm generalizing here: Marth beats Fox, Fox beats Sheik, and Sheik beats Marth. Of course, in the hands of a master, pretty much ANY character can be considered viable, or in this case the so-called "best."

[@viroz2298]

+Brandon Graham um you do know falco, fox and marth are currently considered the top three right?

[@kaiiboraka]

For the sake of my analogy, Falco is pretty much interchangeable with Fox in most matchups. It depends on the skill of the players using the characters, which was most of my point. Falco has significant, game-changing differences from Fox, sure, I know that. But the way you actually play him, mostly due to his identical moveset, is not very different. Spacies, Marth, and Sheik all have different movesets, playstyles, and other pros and cons that create the dynamic I was referring to.

[@viroz2298]

Brandon Graham Falco is 100% not interchangeable with fox in like any matchup lmao

[@Eiirikafe]

+Brandon Graham Dear god. On what basis are you making this statement on? That first sentence just proves that you have no idea what you're talking about. They have completely different playstyles despite having somewhat similar tech skills. Even top players like Mang0 have difficulty dual maining the two spacies because of this.

[@kaiiboraka]

Eiirikafe ***** Y'all are TOTALLY missing the point and getting a little bit too butthurt over nothing. I know they're different characters. I know they play differently. I know at the highest of levels, there's such a huge freaking difference that in a sense they aren't alike in any way but the franchise that they're from. My point was a generalization. It doesn't matter who the "actual" top 3 are or are not. My generalization about the aforementioned relationship (Marth > Spacie, Spacie > Sheik, and Sheik > Marth) still stands, in general, from a raw interpretation of their basic strengths and weaknesses. I was answering the video narrator, when he said, "Let us know who YOU think is the best character in the comments below." My thoughts are that there is not a "best" character, because they all have well-known and thoroughly tested fundamental strengths and weaknesses, and the triangle I spoke of is indicative of such. Any played, if skilled enough, can win with anything if they try hard enough and perform well enough. But that's not my point at all.

[@crimson-foxtwitch2581]

6:01 I agree, the only matchups that really matter when picking a main are the one's that are at least 67.5\33.5 or further in the opponent's favor, in TAS Fox is best, but IRL, the game is evenly shaped.

[@JManthegamerdude]

Marth is the best. OR maybe Luigi someday...

[@KTSpeedruns]

I think you forgot to mention his lazers. When fox doesn't have to approach, he can still pressure you into approaching or just put on a lot of damage with those lazers. They're extremely quick, cover the horizontal space of every stage in the game, and easily hit large characters like Marth and Shiek. Yeah, Puff and some others might sneak through, but good aim mix up and extremely short amounts of time to react make it basically impossible to dodge a good fox's lazers intentionally. So essentially, if you two are equal in the neutral game, Fox still has advantage unless he's clearly a stock or two down. And as you mentioned, he has terrific speed making it easy for him to move away to camp with lazers. Not to mention, Fox's shine is a reflector and an extremely fast hitter as well as a gimp tool. One move is essentially 3 tools in one. I don't know any other character who has something nearly as good as a move. Not a single one of Fox's moves is useless or insanely situational which cannot be said for any other character other than maybe Captain Falcon. Even puff has sing and Shiek has the chain.' Fox almost has the perfect design as a good smash character. High range, high versatility, high amount of kill and combo options at about any%, a tool that FORCES your opponent to approach. His only weekness is his fall speed which allows so many other characters to chain grab him, but like you mentioned, that's nearly impossible at high levels or simply from a fox that knows you're searching for the grab. If Falco had the same length on his recovery as Fox, and if Falco's lazor was faster to more closely match fox's, It would be a much different story.

[@UnoMeeh]

I don't even see how this is a conversation. Regardless of character, the smartest player always wins.

[@abcdefzhij]

YEEEEEESSSS!

[@jasondizon741]

lol, not always.

[@SomersBugtopia]

Yeah, as in the smartest and most technical player wins when using a character that allows their skill to be translated into wins. Hence the concept of tiers, and why Fox is at the top.

[@frompz67]

Yes. next question.

[@beemadden293]

That leffen vs m2k thing wasn't fair m2k's hands were hurting really bad

[@davidthoren3548]

+Rad Kid Yo the man said no johns.

[@davidthoren3548]

+Rad Kid No foreal though he needs to go to the doctor.

[@beemadden293]

+Thor 5173 But really though the doctor is waiting for him.

[@pfarley64]

+Thor 5173 But remember what Mang0 said, M2k is dumber than your little brother

[@Jeremiah3201]

+Rad Kid but did you see what he did to leffen in pax it was crazy

[@grantp8991]

Doc is secret top tier: Fleeing the drug scene, up-b cancels, cape shenanigans, wavelands, and backairs, along with one of the more surprisingly good recoveries, are things doc players don't put together to make him more formidable.

[@grantp8991]

did I mention upbcancel and wavedash oos?

[@Wizzkidwas]

Is Kirby REALLY the worst character?

[@Fish4Man61]

Nah fam, that is Ganondorf. He is a fucking hit magnet that can't escape in most matchups, and while having a lot of power to KO, can be easily avoided. At least I can survive with Kirby in a much wider variety of situations. Granted, harder for that kill move, but you can last longer to be able to do it; so that makes Kirby better than Ganon in my eyes.

[@ConejoTravesti]

Fish4Man61 bowser is the worst his ledge attack is the best in the game though

[@lapplandkun9273]

+Fish4Man61 two words: bizzarro flame. And the fact that ganondorf can chaingrab and combo off of fox and falco just as hard they can combo him. His recovery is better and he has great kill options

[@KrsDisco91]

I think one the best argument for fox being the tippy-top character is him having more viable options in any given situation more so then the rest of the cast

[@epitomeofcake132]

I am just of the opinion that there is no best character. Right now, Fox is getting the most consistent results and a lot of players are unsure how to properly counter him. So naturally he would be considered the best. But five years down the line that could be completely different. Falcon is getting more consistent results with players like Wizzy and N0ne, Hungrybox is showing Puff has INSANE potential, Mango is breaking out the Marth more and more often, and Dizz is showing just how scary a really good IC's is. And hell even though Kirby is the supposed worst, Triple R took him to top 8 at a national, at Combo Breaker 2016!

[@damexicanoreo9095]

Shit 5 years from now? Can't wait to see that. I'll feel old by then lol

[@epitomeofcake132]

DaMexicanOreo I just hope Melee is still popular and getting new good players by then.

[@jakefromstatefarm6969]

Combo Breaker is a regional, not a national

[@lucifersam7946]

You could have used any of the top 4 Ice Climber players to prove your point. Dizzkidboogie's entire play depends on wobbling. Everything else he's barely decent at in comparison. While Nintendude also primarily focuses on wobbling as well, he does show skill regarding Sopo plays and handoffs, in the few cases that he does.

[@chuckmangione161]

Epitome of Trash™ Just wait for people to improve on Captain Falcon. Soon they'll be asking if he can still lose a national.

[@SundriedSage]

I think fox is almost the perfect character if you know how to control him perfectly, basically m2k tech skill + mang0 reads... But he is define toy beatable if the player trains well and understands what different attacks and strategies/ways to control fox in there momentum and beat fox using advanced combos and almost perfect well, everything!

[@SundriedSage]

Player>character

[@Oakwin_mb]

+Hamad Althani Leffen tech skill*

[@profrezer7164]

+Pensive Penguin Hax$ tech skill

[@chriptachronick77]

+Hamad Althani was hannen then.. ill destroy u with link

[@masenko4486]

SHREK IS THE BEST IN THE GAME

[@bettyboop5560]

TWO WORDS: Samus Aran

[@Nintega2K]

There is 1 main reason that to this day, i stand by calling Jigglypuff the best character in the game. Ease. Jigglypuff is the Easiest character in the game to use by far. While it's not THAT easy like people say it is, the thing that makes her special is that her difficulty does not come in super precise timings & inputs per second. While she does have some things like up b edge grabbing & rising pound, they're not too difficult to learn. Not only is she the easiest in the game to use, but more importantly, she's also the safest to use. No i don't fully mean the safest as in safe options in game or the safest in terms of matchups (though those might be true) I literally mean, the SAFEST to use! While you CAN get away using Peach & Sheik & not risk yourself a hospital trip, just try it at high level play! Even if the risk depends on your character, the fact that Hungrybox, the best JIGGLYPUFF Player in the world is getting check ups based on his Melee Gameplay, that should trigger something in your mind! & Thing is, Fox Players are the most prone to this risk! Hax is currently on a hiatus because of hand pain that is basically guaranteeing him to drop fox when he comes back! Hell he might not even be able to go back to Falcon! Even DruggedFox dropped Fox for a bit because of hand pain! Mew2King i'm not quite sure on, but i heard he had a similar story, & it's likely because of his Fox (yes, even Defensive Foxes are as prone). & Falco Players don't have much safer either. I'm not entirely sure on PPMD's health conditions, but i bet it has something to do with the way he plays falco. "What about Westballz? He has a so tech falco & he doesn't have the issue yet!" Well his Falco is mainly played in a way of precise timing & positioning (hence his edge cancels) & even when it comes to inputs per second, the way i've seen him doesn't look to be needing ultra fast hands (shine dair, lctag, etc) & he occasionally plays less demanding characters like Captain Falcon. Though if he doesn't stop playing Fox on the occasion, i could see him getting hand pain at some point. While Fox's Range & Combo Taste (the phrase i use when saying someone is big combo food) are weaknesses for Fox, i've come to learn that fox's biggest weakness by far in Melee is his players' injuries. Hax is bad enough, but as more players get hand pain, it's gonna detract people from wanting to even touch Fox, Hence, he'll get less players. Some Top Foxes will likely also drop Fox in the future because they either got hand pain & can't afford to get to a point of forced retirement, or because they want to avoid hand pain in the 1st place. No matter how "Top Tier" A character is, if it means risking life changing injuries, it's Never worth the risk, Period! This is the main reason Melee HD (whenever the fuck that's gonna happen at any point) needs to include a full fledged input buffering system. There's not much problem with a difficult game, but when it causes almost inevitable injuries depending on how you play, no matter how much exercising you do, is when problems, maybe even lawsuits, start happening! There's a reason Smash 4 is growing so fast people! All of this is why in my current tier list, Fox is as low as SEVEN on the list! Don't say it's too low, cuz it's not! For a Fox to go through 200+ Hours in training, practicing Multishines, Mastering doing 10+ inputs a second, Trying to incorporate what top level Fox's do, only for all of that to go down the shitter once they can't play anymore because they injured their hands to a point beyond recognition, not worth it! Almost all of this goes for Falco as well! Yoshi & Pikachu are almost the same story, but less popular choices so they aren't getting affected anytime soon. One day in the future of Melee, the Metagame will be lustered with Jigglypuff, Sheik, Peach, & Possibly Marth. HOWEVER, Fox has 1 last chance of Hope! 1 Saving Grace (& i use Saving Grace as in it's gotta work super well for it to help) that might just save him from the dangers of people dropping him because of hand injuries & concerns. SMASHBOX! Honestly Kira, why haven't you discussed this before? For those who don't know, SmashBox is basically a Hitbox Controller, but for Smash. Now it's not released yet, as it's getting a kickstarter soon, but look it up, then come back! Already it will reduce hand injuries with the way it handles it's ergonomics (tilt buttons instead of a Stick, Digital L/R buttons WITH a light shield button, etc) But 1 thing i wanna know currently is how much can exercise & arm strength training can reduce injuries. Let's discuss that for a bit. Most PC eSports like League of Legends, Dota, CS:GO, etc, do risk injuries almost as much as Melee, but the difference is that the work that is being done is mostly with your arms moving around everywhere. Since arms have muscle in them, exercise can reduce the possibility of injuries from happening. Thing is, Hands & Fingers don't exactly have muscle in them, so while stretching can help a bit (Trust me, i'm a Sm4sh Player & i stretch my hands quite a bit) It won't reduce the chance of injuries by any notable bit. SmashBox might be able to make it possible to reduce the injuries with exercise, even if a lot of work will still be done with the hands, The thumbs will be doing A LOT LESS work! With all of this in mind, this could Save Fox! It likely won't make him much easier to play, they're still gonna have to time things near frame perfect, & range & combo taste will still very well be an issue, but it'll make him MUCH safer to play, no question, & There is a VERY, & i mean, VERY slight chance, that with the help of SmashBox, that we could get to something close to 20XX. Real 20XX (Everyone plays Fox at TAS levels, RPS is the only deciding factor) Is never gonna happen. What i mean is, it has a chance to get to a point where people could Make TAS Videos without needing to use TASing Tools on Dolphin (Frame Advance, TAS input, Save States, etc) Same can go for the equivalents as well! 20GX, 20BC, 666XX (seriously there's gotta be a better name for Jigglypuff's Metagame)! & Don't Think Nintendo's gonna take the project down. Lawsuits for injury risk >WILL< occur, guaranteed! As for how will this affects my rankings for Fox, it still won't make him the best, but i could see myself putting him in Top 3 if SmashBox is a success (under Jiggs & Marth). As for myself, i'm getting SmashBox Launch Day, & Maybe i'll even try a more difficult Melee Character. Anyway guys, what do you think of this? Am i right, or is Fox doomed to Droppers?

[@thoughtboxband]

Nintega94 that's a lot of words my dude

[@Nintega2K]

superpuggy You don't know the half of it

[@succ6031]

fox is still better than puff

[@elijohnson3191]

TL;DR Jiggs is the best.

[@Tyler-fm1ke]

Man-e Word hurt brain. Pls. Summeriz pwlz.

[@MrNachtara]

Pichu is the best character because he is the only one that has 2 taunts

[@Athesies]

Falcon has 2 taunts as well. He moves his arm very differently depending what way hes facing

[@adrianuribe6723]

5:55 "Did he just walk up...and down smash?"

[@Oakwin_mb]

+Adrian Uribe Walk up, slowly.*

[@ExperienceLOS7713]

In the current state of affairs, I think it's clear that Fox is the best character in the game. However, because players pay so much attention to him, his metagame has evolved in a way that has created a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy: people think Fox is the best character, so they play him to the best of their abilities, discovering new and innovative techniques to make him even better, and thus Fox's metagame continues to improve at a faster rate than the rest of the cast. However, if as much man hours were put into Falcon, Samus, Ice Climbers, etc., I feel like there's potential for other characters to reach the same level of success and even surpass him if tactics were developed which could effectively counter what the best Fox players in the world can do. Ultimately, I think Fox's frame data is what "objectively" make him the best character in the game. If people had perfect reflexes and really played at a TAS/20xx level, then Fox would be unstoppable because his moveset would never allow other characters to land a hit on him.

[@BassAsLeaders]

Fox is the best if you dont fuck up

[@wave9142]

+RBAG The thing is, Melee is so hard that people will always fuck up.

[@ApexGale]

Can anyone explain what happened at 5:56 with the Captain Falcon and Fox player? To me, it looked like the CF player just walked up slowly and down-smashed, but I'm not sure if what I saw was a hallucination or not. Someone explain?

[@kerpapa3751]

Kirby is best. B8 plz don't kill me.

[@jimmykeffer7401]

What are you talking about? Kirby is trash. He has no neutral, no kill options, and no recovery. Go play tr4sh if you really want to play Kirby. More b8 plz don't kill me

[@Nintega2K]

in 64?

[@velli7362]

Bro you know you can click show more right. lol fucking dumbass responding to joke comments. im sry i wanted to b8

[@EL-rj4jl]

gr8 b8 m8s

[@Stroimex]

This is Super Smash Bros. If you bring such loved characters wich franchises been, are or will be hits in different times, choosing a best is a year of work, even competitive

[@themetapod]

fox isn't even that good

[@Vergilthenew]

+the metapod Do people even get that meme over here? I mean, I do, but will most people?

[@DonnyKirkMusic]

+the metapod metapod is the new meta

[@thatdankguy5140]

a skilled metapod can beat any fox

[@choicebandmetapod1439]

If only I had come here earlier.

[@Spin793]

+the metapod Yeah .6 out of 10. ;)

[@tfj8767]

The year is 20eggseggs. Everyone plays Yoshi at aMSa levels of perfection. The meta has boiled down to picking falcon instead.

[@dovekie3437]

"At any given point, Fox has more options available to him, than anyone else, in the entire game" Wait what?? This is just a completely untrue statement. Keep random exaggerations out of videos like this and it helps with credibility, cause this is untrue. (i.e. his linear recovery, approach, etc.) In fact, minutes 3:00 to 4:00 are filled with logical fallacies and inaccuracies that make this hard to watch.

[@SSBMTutorials]

+Dovekie Who do you believe has more options than Fox? His recovery is more varied than almost any of the other top tiers, he has more approach angles as well, I'm curious to see why you think this is untrue.

[@dovekie3437]

He, in general, probably has one of the highest amount of options when you look at everything all together. But "at any given point" ? Not at all. A low tier like Young Link has many more options while he is at range, as does samus, peach, and link, while fox can only run in and space aerials, RPS, or can laser. Samus has more recovery options, as does puff, peach, and a few other characters. Fox's lack of range limits his options in various circumstances, where as having a sword, or a projectile that stuns like falcos, would give him more options that other characters have by default. Sorry I didn't mean for my post to sound so harsh, and I do believe fox is probably #1. He does not, however, have more options than every other character at every point in the game. Statements so absolute are hardly ever true, and this is no exception.

[@SSBMTutorials]

I don't believe having longer range gives you more options, rather it makes the ones you do have more powerful. You mostly see Marth's or Sheiks doing very similar things, often dtilt/fair/dashdance over and over, but they are effective because of that range. I see your point about being at long range, that makes sense. For almost any other situation I don't exactly see how he is limited though. His mixups on shield and out of shield are amazing, his recovery is EXTREMELY varied (it just doesn't look that way when people who can't take advantage of shine stalls, walljumps, side B shortens, and insane up B angles are playing the game). And of course he always has a way to beat certain tactics, like crouch cancelling, dashdance camping, platform movements, etc

[@dovekie3437]

I'm not saying he doesn't have a lot of options. You just said he has the most options in every circumstance. Does he have more recovery options than Pikachu? Of course not. I mean just read what you said again "At any given point, Fox has more options available to him, than anyone else, in the entire game" It's just an untrue fluff statement trying to make him sound more incredible and invincible than he is.

[@redlift4410]

+Dovekie OH MY GOD ITS A HYPERBOLE! Of course not in every situation fox has most options, but most.

[@3malinkies]

5:38 Yeah, but when you back Mew2King into a corner, he switches to Fox. Just saying.

[@wordoredlink]

I swear, if i train hard enough, my Roy could end 20XX and start a new year called 20AS, a year where everyone plays any character in the game no matter what the outcome is.

[@siiimbulan]

I'd like to nominate "How to short hop laser turn around up-tilt with falco."

[@dayonesamus]

not one person I've come across has ever explained this so well

[@NeffJeff95]

I think the last moment pretty much summed up the video

[@jcguitar22]

WOAH mentioning COMPETITIVE TEAM FORTRESS 2? I LOVE YOU KIRA

[@MrMarowak]

I thought you were gonna end with "a skilled Roy can beat any Fox" but "no Johns" works too

[@cammro]

5:52 "did he just walk up slowly and down smash" i miss melee, but i don't miss watching it.

[@breloom657]

I dunno, I always felt like the Ice Climbers had the most potential.

[@the34zydc.64]

I tend to believe that the best character in the game right now in the current metagame is Fox because of how well executed he is, but that doesn't mean he's the best character in theory. When I go by the frame data, hitboxes and harmboxes, I tend to think a lot about the theoretical game being based off of the range of character moves opposed to their harmboxes, and the speed at which a move comes out. With what I see thus far, this leaves two characters with theoretically the most efficient options to counter others; Fox and Marth. Though Falco, Sheik and other characters have their own tools (that I could be overlooking), Fox's frame one shine that covers more space than Falco's, and Marth's range that keeps him arguably at a further distance from harm if executed with perfect reactions or enemy movement reads seem to be the two theoretically clashing option covering moves that make these characters have the biggest potential without counting human reaction time and human flaws as factors. However, because of human reaction time, I think that alone blows the door open for many characters to take tournaments. If people get their characters down enough, work on their option coverage and reactions, I think even teirs as low and Ganondorf (possibly lower) have the potential to take national tournaments.

[@mopbrothers]

Fox is my favorite character, but he's so hard to control! Marth is very hard to beat. Fox and Marth have the biggest rivalry, both have incredibly useful moves.

[@psychoticdrugs5417]

can you do a video about, ic's and wobbling, because it seems easier if someone learns to wobble and get grabs , rather than learning alot of different tech skill

[@DrCoeloCephalo]

The BEST character in the ENTIRE Smash roster in history will always be, without a doubt, *Wario*. I mean, the development team had to keep him as a trophy in order to seal away his power because they knew how broken he would be.

[@AkselSv]

Fox is the best character in the game in theory, but not in practice because many people plays fox which makes it easier to learn the matchup and it's very difficult to play fox consistently even at the highest level of play. Example: Fox will never beat puff 100% every time because it's always a possibility that fox players mess up.

[@MasterTaiki]

Can't see this game as just a fun lan party game ever since that smash documentary film.

[@darkshadowknight4404]

dammit all i wish i could go to the tournaments, then i can show the world just how powerful Luigi is!

[@darkshadowknight4404]

I don't know if Luigi is the best, but i can try to explain how Luigi is powerful (even though his aerial sucks, i will be the first to admit). Yes, he does have a bad running attack in melee, but he is a great counter style character. He is able to use quick air attacks like his chop and his down kick (which was nerfed in brawl :/). Even though he isn't very mobile in air, his 2 strong moves are in the air, which moves just as fast as fox's attacks. His side smash is good for getting a quick hit in without moving closer to your opponent (90% of the time you are able to shield or even dodge following the attack). He's really only good on the ground when countering, because he is able to dodge quick enough to be able to get a quick jab or even a smash attack depending on the attack, but he's really useful for using his chop attack following up from his dodge. That being said, it is very hard for him to recover, when his health gets high and you fly, your at a gamble as to whether you will get lucky enough to get the super rocket or not. But even so, if your able to rocket directly into the edge (unless opponent is edge grabbing, then hope that you make it above), or if you can get just close enough to where you think you can land on the edge, you can use his dnB to spin and get an extra mobile advantage since his dnB is so much more mobile that Mario's and even Dr.Mario's. With it you can hit your opponent, or directly hit at the same time, giving you a split second to shield and even move out of the way (unless you screw up). But that is usually a 40/60 chance, because you may be too far where you would need the super rocket to make it and don't get it, or even being able to rocket just far enough to get to the edge and being edge guarded (unless your move actually hits then you have a second to dodge onto the field or even do an upB if need be). So that's my analysis on how Luigi is a great character, and how he can still have a few tricks up his sleves, but it helps to get other's opinions on this, this would help me overall be a better smash player, your opinions are apreciated :)

[@BeeBN]

luigi is a curve ball matchup, if u know the matchup it shouldn't be hard to beat him tho.

[@edododo5494]

I'll really want Pichu to be in top tier. He has One of the best up Smash in the game and it's N air it's also really good. good recovery. His only problem it's that it can be killed after 60/70 % 😞

[@DammitBobby]

Not to mention fox has virtually no landing lag off of recovery moves.

[@EmilyRose-wt8nt]

Fox doesn't have weak matchups, but I think the marth matchup can be particularly difficult for fox.

[@funnature8679]

1:33-1:42 True team combo.

[@kianbagherlee7986]

Hi, I'm just starting out and watch your videos to help me get better. Something I am confused on and can't get help with is which charecters beat which charecters and on what stages. Can you make a video on this?

[@loosetube5417]

At low level it depends more on your playstyle. I play Falco, and Yoshi's is supposed to be my best stage, but I prefer Pokemon, FD, and even Dreamland because I like spacing with lasers more than the rushdown game.

[@timothyj96]

I main Luigi and when I go to my locals it's like open season, and there's an overpopulation of foxes and birds. That doesn't make Luigi the best though. Where I'm able to outplay everyone there consistently (except for my training partner who mains Sheik and gives me a rough time sometimes) it means I can outplay them in neutral and follow up with an edge guard. I think at this point in the meta where even Luigi is placing top 8 at nationals (LETS GO ABATE) we should just have player tier lists not character tier lists.

[@HoorayForJay]

I feel as if it's "easier" to win as Fox since he's the best character in the game. However, making things "easier" actually requires more effort, more inputs, and basically more of everything in terms of gameplay to keep up with potential. Is this truly easier?

[@illican]

Well, though Fox is the best and requires many inputs, that doesn't mean other top tiers are harder to play. Look at Marth, among the easiest fundamentals in the game to pick up, and he's almost devoid of tech skill other than abusing his dash dance, wavedash and pivot capabilities. Then there's Sheik, with fairly easy fundamentals and probably the easiest tech skill in the game.

[@risechi14]

0:18 So that what the Fox say huh

[@TheLysid]

If Fox could be taken close to the limitless potential he has available to him by any player, than the argument could perhaps be presented that Fox is indeed the best character in the game, but being humans; we are limited in our potential and how we can apply that said potential. Also, to apply the technical prowess we wish to exhibit with Fox to show he is the best would be impossible for your hands to do; tendonitis will see to that.

[@NICKTASCHYAN]

I think the level of execution required to play a good fox is really why fox doesn't absolutely DESTROY every character in the game. He's the hardest character to play well with, one simple flub and that could be the stock since fox gets punished pretty hard. I think the best way to put it is in tiers and just leave it as fox is top tier along with falco Marth and sheik

[@zodek11]

Great video!

[@alexkfridges]

The thing that gets me is that fox literally has NO negative matchups against ANYONE. That basically defines him as the best. Alot of people think his most difficult matchup is himself. lol.

[@Neonst3r]

Can you do more videos about Sheik and Marth?

[@277657]

Kira my boy, make another fox tutorial sometime soon!

[@icegod4849]

After Zain's reign, the Marth-Fox matchup debates have gotten so much more heated

[@dachuckie7]

I don't really care who is the best. All I can really ask for is variety among the top tiers. As long as there are many good Foxes, Falcos, Marths, Sheiks, Puffs, Peaches, Falcons... The game will remain interesting.

[@SSBBnightmare]

He's like a Mishima in tekken. He's the best on paper but in reality no one can consistently use him to his full potential.