Is Gandalf A Mary Sue? - Ep. 69 of Intentionally Blank

Brandon Sanderson and Dan Wells talk about the guide lines of what makes a Mary Sue, and wether or not Gandalf falls into that category.
/ sanderson
Can be listened to almost everywhere podcasts can be found.
Produced by Adam Horne
Sound engineering and editing by Daniel Thompson

[@Dynnen]

Brandon: a lot of fantasy is wish fulfillment fantasy Dan: yes! Me remembering Dan wrote I am not a serial killer: 😆

[@thegodofalldragons]

His fantasy is not being a serial killer, what's wrong with that? 😊 Wait...

[@suepedie1]

😁😁😁

[@alexistaylor9092]

I hope this podcast continues forever

[@drakean8]

I re-listen to these episodes so much to get my fix 😆😆😆

[@christianrapper]

It won’t. You just jinxed it

[@noahearl]

Ditto

[@ajd2393]

@@christianrapper only thing jinxing it is your negativity

[@beardietwitch]

Given the amount of books BrandoSando has to sign, I'd be willing to bet it will continue for a while.

[@ryanratchford2530]

33:30 Cirdan upon seeing Gandalf for the very first time is like: “Hey dude I can sense your super cool, here, have 1 of the 3 elven rings. It’s one of the most powerful and important artifacts in the world. And I’d rather you have it than use it to keep Lindon preserved like Elrond does with Rivendell and Galadriel does for Lorien. Gandalf: thanks, I’ll use it to set pinecones on fire!

[@daem0nfaust]

Four minutes in, and I'm laughing with Dan using Peaches song as the reason for stealing peaches.

[@Cube-o]

I was waiting the whole peach discussion whether someone will mention it.

[@chloeahey]

I was thinking about it too lol

[@vamsiampolu8438]

Wait, isn’t it free to acquire peaches. I believe that the rules may be different in Japan but surely 😅

[@yobgodababua1862]

I was told this was a good idea by The Presidents of The United States of America!

[@TheMaryWriter]

Brandon & Dan: who doesn’t wish they looked like Gandalf? Me: *remembers that his eyebrows stick out beyond the brim of his hat*

[@fredericgrafen7288]

So he is Thaylen?

[@One_Bar]

To be fair, that would be rad as a guy.

[@Iluvatar196]

He could be the rival The Rock has been waiting for. Their eyebrow meme battle would be legendary

[@tomjudkins3799]

Mentat Gandalf

[@KillerSpud]

Gandalf is an example of a paragon character, Kinda like Dr Who, who is very experienced and capable, but is usually not who the story is happening to, but is aiding the main protagonist (someone's Dr Who is the protagonist, sometimes it is his assistants or other characters).

[@andurilcuivie]

Yes, we only want the Doctor to be the main character in very sparse allotments. When the show goes on for 60+ years, the change to the character is best at a glacial speed. (With some superficial changes every new face).

[@EndeavorDeeply]

Brandon: "There's nobody that doesn't deserve a tongue lashing from Gandalf, right?" Dan: "Epscially the ones who think he's very attractive." Brandon: "Yes" Well done.

[@Zimoria]

Ah haha yes

[@mattfarr137]

I’m going to argue with Brandon and say no one cares when there is a Mary Sue as a side character, it only when your POV or main character is a Mary Sue that people have problems

[@tnndll4294]

Gandalf isn't a mary-sue in the Jackson films. He lost to Saruman badly in LOTR. He had to be rescued by Galadrielle, a woman, and 2 others in the Hobbit movie.

[@RougeMephilesClone]

I feel like there are special exceptions to be made for senior characters who frequently step out of the spotlight. Gandalf follows this common archetype to a T, and while he does a lot of crazy things and doesn't develop much, it kind of feels like he's already earned it. Fact of the matter is, Gandalf never steals the focus away from any of the integral protagonists and antagonists, and is more something to aspire to then an active force himself. Gandalf is a good mentor, plain and simple, and there's a certain catharsis to watching one of those characters go about their duties.

[@Lezzyboy87]

Didn't watch it before posting did you? Lol

[@vileluca]

@@Lezzyboy87 Watched it all and the OP is still correct. Go chase a ball into traffic you snide sack of dogshit.

[@hkfifty871]

I think to put it more generally- the potential issues with sort of “wish fulfillment” characters tend to be eliminated (or at least lessened significantly) when the character isn’t the principal hero or protagonist of the narrative.

[@Remixersoloman]

@@hkfifty871 I disagree sort of. Using Rey again, there's nothing fun about her. She goes from desert junker to ultra pilot wookie-speaking master force user/duelist basically overnight. Imo that still wouldn't be fun or good for the story even if she was being an ultimate badass off screen mostly, vs someone like Gandalf who uses his skill, power, and wisdom to lift up the other characters and help them to solve problems instead of doing absolutely everything himself.

[@RougeMephilesClone]

@@Lezzyboy87 Nope. The topic was sitting right there, so I gave my thoughts.

[@hadiajina]

Hey guys, just wanted to add that Gandalf's appearance (and therefore all the wizards) as an old man with a big hat, robes, and staff is based on Odin in his guise of the wanderer with which he would travel the mortal realms. More points to self-insert mythological fan fiction!

[@darthnether2732]

This.

[@GrayghostAlpha]

Dan: "Is anyone, including you, Jealous of Gandalf's good looks? No." Brandon: "Man, we should have done this for Aragorn." Tolkien (writing Aragorn): "I see! I look foul and feel fair, Is that it?"

[@guillermorelobalopez7553]

That's Aragorn teasing Frodo. If "the most beatiful elf since Luthien Tinuviel" chooses him over immortality and her family I think it's pretty safe to say he's good looking on top of everything else. Specially since Arwen is second to Luthien only because as a married man one cannot put anyone above the wife ever, not even in fiction.

[@taneelbrightblade6622]

@@guillermorelobalopez7553 I dunno, Luthien fell for Beren at first sight after he wandered in the wilderness for six or seven years alone. Elves might just have a very specific type in humans

[@guillermorelobalopez7553]

@@taneelbrightblade6622 Oh... You... You are not wrong. You just made me realize that Arwen, Luthien and Idril are very kinky elves indeed. At least Tuor was clean and learned, right?

[@jacobstamm]

Episode 69. Nice.

[@Pablo360able]

Thank you for falling on the predictable-Internet-joke sword.

[@jacobstamm]

@@Pablo360able it ain’t much, but it’s honest work

[@Wafflefrieslmdh]

nice

[@RYgamingTV]

nice

[@CrimsonMey]

and they start if off by talking about stealing 🍑🍑🍑, maybe by someone quiet and dangerous, and it being a vicious crime. So Japan.

[@Machtyn]

39:00 Yes, Gandalf knows everything about everything. But he's a 2000+ year old scholar that has traveled everywhere. I would expect him to have arcane knowledge. I'd have answered "No" for that one.

[@vileluca]

He doesn't know everything. For 77 years he didn't realize Bilbo had the One Ring.

[@AdeelTariq0]

@@vileluca yup

[@trueheart1372]

Also using rangers as spy network as in if you know all why do you need spys

[@None38389]

@@trueheart1372 Or rather having spys is why he knows everything.

[@trueheart1372]

@@None38389 true for most spy masters but helps when your 2k wizard to lol

[@SCEnver]

Gandalf’s name is literally taken from a list of 13 dwarves in the Eddas, which Tolkien saw and thought, “Why is a ‘Wand-Elf’ hanging out with twelve dwarves?” And thus the Hobbit, so the name Gandalf is ABSOLUTELY taken from another fandom 😂

[@teagannakamoto9688]

Can Gandalf charm people with his musical talent? Saxophone Gandalf cured my child's temper tantrums. So, yes!

[@Nerd-rk1to]

Fun fact. Gandalf in the books is only 5'6"-5'8". Tolkien was 5'9". He was largely described as tall because he hung out with Hobbits and Dwarves so much.

[@judeconnor-macintyre9874]

Aragon and Legolas thought Gandalf was Frodo's cousin or something, so they were really confused when he magically came back to life.

[@Arafax]

I would assume Gandalf's appearance was intended to be more in line with depictions of Odin than with Tolkien's image of himself. He made it pretty clear he considered himself a hobbit.

[@aliddleboi4599]

Brandon’s laughter in this episode is infectious

[@mpet483]

So, the security guards for the peach orchards…. They must surely be called the Peach Fuzz.

[@dakard1]

obviously when you use one word to describe the entire problem of story you're probably doing a poor job, on the other hand gandalf is not the main character which i think invalidates the point a little bit, isn't the role of the mentor-type characters to be super competent and awesome so you can take them away when the mc has to grow up? (just writing this for discussion sake, i agree with the general point made in the video)

[@vileluca]

Brandon could have had a serious conversation about competent characters that have reached the end of their character arc. Alas.

[@cybersekkin]

Mary Sue normally only applies to the main protagonist or active character and not Mentors, who are almost always Mary Sues if this test is applied. It is the very purpose of a mentor to be the expert to train or help along the protagonist. For me the term Mary Sue only really comes in when you have a total newbie MC who excels at everything, not some character trained up who can do the same.

[@rifway22]

No, the perfect mary sue/gary stu character is James Bond. It's a self insert wish fulfillment character, who always triumph against all odds and gets all the girls to fall in love with him with ease.

[@cybersekkin]

@@rifway22 Perfect and that is the main protagonist so yes he is the poster child for Gary Stu.

[@Isoquant]

Rey is one of the best examples of how poorly inserting a Mary Sue character can undermine your entire story.

[@masonguthrie1257]

@@rifway22 I would disagree with this statement because one he is well trained and two considering how people fawn over celebrities these days it’s not that unlikely that most people would attracted to someone like James Bond.

[@TripleBWow]

While I do agree that often times the Mary Sue is a newbie character. The other type is when they make every other character around the Mary Sue utterly useless to make her appear more awesome. A good example of this is Galadriel in the new Rings of Power show.

[@corrinmana9324]

It's not misogyny. Mary Sue Watson wrote Star Trek fan fiction, starring her character, Lieutenant Mary Sue Watson, who was perfect and simultaneously romanced all the male characters, and all the other criticized things. The magazine to which she submitted these stories, eventually posted a statement, that it needed no more "Mary Sue" type stories, and people started using that term.

[@maximeteppe7627]

Even if the stories starring mary Sue Type characters are bad, isn't it a sexist trend that mainly female instances are criticized when James bond is over there with maxed physical, social and intellectual attributes and romancing every single attractive female character he encounters?

[@stevenmontoya7275]

@@maximeteppe7627 Bond has a ton of flaws, he's easily seduced and manipulated by women, he doesn't follow orders well, which often gets him into trouble, and he's very arrogant which once again causes a lot of issues. He's earned all of his good qualities as a special agent that had to work to where he gets. He is also perpetually 007 instead of rising higher in rank due to him not following orders. Have you ever seen a Bond film where he gets out of the situation without almost dying multiple times. If he was without those flaws he would be a Mary Sue and the Bond films would be incredibly boring.

[@TheRedHaze3]

@@maximeteppe7627 You either have a very poor understanding of what a Mary Sue is, or a very poor understanding of James Bond.

[@MCArt25]

@@stevenmontoya7275 None of these are actual flaws in the story.

[@stevenmontoya7275]

@@MCArt25 Your comment makes no sense. I wasn't criticizing James Bond. I was saying if he was perfect he'd be a Mary Sue, but he isn't. Also it eludes to him having worked very hard to get to where he is.

[@captainsirk1173]

I definitely did the whole OP self insert thing, but I realized that If I were to suddenly be given so much power in such a setting as I had imagined, most all of my mild struggles would be amplified to extremes. I've formulated a rough storyline that I think is pretty compelling. Would that I could figure out how to write it properly. If you ever come across a story about a kid granted virtual immortality, courtesy of telekinesis with almost all limitations removed, and thrown millions of years into the past, left to wander a plexiverse with just enough rules to leave him virtually unchallengeable and at an utter loss as to what to do with such power, know that I either figured it out, or someone read this comment and stole my idea, crushing my hopes and dreams.

[@Denis461997]

I was SO tempted to write the prequel UNTIL i readed those final words... HAHA -Hope u make it happen! i'll buy that story as soon as i see it! PS: Burn your boats if needed ;)

[@eryaviel]

When the Pixel changed from a physical thumbprint scanner to the on-screen one, it drove me INSANE because it wasn't as sensitive. They've fixed it a lot, but I understand Brandon's frustration with that 1 out of 10 time failure.

[@GraydenProductions]

He said in the last episode that he has a Samsung Fold. I'm wondering if he gave the scanner a chance on that phone? I have a Flip4, and I can only imagine that the scanners are the same. I don't think it's ever failed for me. If my thumb even slightly brushes the scanner it registers it and unlocks. It's seriously the greatest scanner I've ever used

[@zlcoolboy]

The pixel 5 has an actual scanner on the back again. I don't know about the newest one though.

[@colin1818]

3:53 We legitimately have a problem in this country when the Presidents of the United States of America consistently advocate for the theft of peaches.

[@jaredpoulter6762]

One of the best episodes yet. Also, I look forward to getting to know Ben next week.

[@caseyas8572]

Who is Ben?! Is he another author?

[@jaredpoulter6762]

@@caseyas8572 Ben is just a friend of theirs. I am pretty sure he went to college with them. He is who they are talking to when they close their podcast by saying, "how's that Ben?" because Ben told them that they need a sign off.

[@adoniscreed4031]

@@jaredpoulter6762 "How's that Ben?" is such a good sign off 🤣🤣🤣

[@sirmarblecake9446]

If Brandon doesn't involve Dan in the Stormlight RPG, I will write a very strongly worded (and badly written) letter.

[@hirschgorokhovsky7402]

Or maybe this is a poor quiz for whether a character is a mary sue? It sounds like this quiz is meant for a very specific type of mary sue, where they're an original character haphazardly inserted into an existing world. For example, so many of the questions are based around sexiness. Surely, if most characters that are usually accused of being a mary sue don't fit well with this quiz, that indicates something? Nobody is accusing (for example) rey from star wars of being overly sexy. You have very badly straw-manned the position of people who use the mary sue criticism.

[@claytongossett967]

Gandalf probably smells like pipe-weed. So yes, the hobbits probably loved how he smelled!

[@oneukum]

I would fear smelling in a way that causes people to want to set me on fire.

[@colin1818]

0:42 "That's a way lot of peaches" Millions of peaches. Peaches for me. Millions of Peaches. Peaches for free.

[@wingracer1614]

Peaches come from a can. They were put there by a man, in a factory downtown.

[@nikvernon4251]

Next week! Intentionally Blank pulls off their own food heist! lol. I think the Mary Sue discussion could expand to how we use trope labels at all. Tropes are just common writing tools/features- they can be good or bad. But people tend to go to them to put down something they didn't like instead of thinking out their criticism. Like I hear "that plot was full of maguffins" or dumb statements like that all of the time. Its the same with Mary Sue and I think you nailed it at the end. The intention behind the label is something worth talking about, like with Rey or Luke, but resorting to the trope label turns the argument into a twitter post and away from a discussion

[@deriznohappehquite]

I feel like Gandalf is more of a trope codified than Mary Sue herself.

[@ronaldwatson3862]

An interesting question and final premise (that being a Mary Sue isn't so bad). I noticed in many comments, some guys seem to express annoyance at even questioning Gandalf, then frequently provide examples of the true Mary Sues they hate so much. Oddly, these are exclusively female examples, and never other males to replace Gandalf. I say oddly only because there is arguably an entire genre dedicated to creating male Mary Sue characters. Have these guys ever watched an Action-Hero movie made before 2010 (and even most made since)? Many are total Mary-Sue characters, no question. It almost defines the genre. Basically perfect (maybe jerkish, but it won't hinder them) guy hero destroys every enemy no matter the odds and gets the girl. Sounds like a typical Mary-Sue to me. This long-standing tradition never seems to bother anyone wailing about all those darn lady Mary-Sues we have now, though. Interesting. With that said, I love Action-Hero movies! I agree with the premise - being a Mary-Sue isn't always so bad (just when written poorly). It fulfills a fantasy for the audience - none of us are perfect in real life, so always being awesome at everything is an escapist fantasy. The super-cool guy is a great character! Arnold, Sylvester, Bruce, Kurt, Chuck, Mel, Jean, Patrick, Eddie - all of these actors are millionaires from each making multiple "different" franchises centered around Mary-Sue characters. I don't even need last names! And, if the cool guy happens to be a lady every once in a while, it's no less believable or annoying than the unbelievable stuff happening in all of those awesome male franchises already made. When Pratt can save the world from ravaging dinosaurs using the power of animal telepathy (no, it makes sense, cuz he was a dinosaur-trainer for 1 species of dino!) and of course get the girl, and nobody cries about Mary-Sue or unbelievability, then Captain Marvel and Rey can exist and be awesome, too. This "it's unrealistic but believable" for a man to suddenly level-up but "unrealistic and unbelievable" for a woman in the same ridiculous scenarios is a tired old argument. If Tom Cruise was Captain Marvel, I bet there would have been ZERO complaints about the otherwise exact same movie. It would have been celebrated for the hype suggested crossover awesomeness with TG and Mav. If you're upset that there are now a couple female Action-Hero characters in existence, but find yourself excusing away the thousands of already-existing male Action-Heroes that are mirror images of them (and for some reason you LOVE them), maybe do some self-reflection on why that is. And I'm not excusing bad writing here - some movies/books are more poorly written than others, whether it be a sudden power-up trope that feels rushed/unearned or whatever. I wasn't a fan of Captain Marvel or the new SW movies. It wasn't the characters that bothered me, but plot holes and story aspects that just didn't work for me. The characters are ones I've seen before and they were okay. But check that you apply the same expectations to male and female characters before @ing me. If all of your objections land solely on female characters, that's likely a you thing not a bad writing thing.

[@gabrielgarbow3784]

Absolutely. Not only is your observation spot-on, but you deliver it in a thorough and non-accusatory way... and you provide examples. If only I could upvote this comment a dozen more times.

[@2000tmaster]

This episode's food heist was committed by a musician who realized that their job would be much easier if only they had "perfect peach".

[@connorlohse4097]

And interesting framework and exercise. But I think it’s pretty clear that Gandalf the Grey is anything but. What makes his character so great is that he is full of caution and often gives harrowing announcements of doom lol. His wisdom is apparent in that way. Not to mention, he brutally dies (ostensibly) early on! Gandalf the White is another story, but even then he is semi-regularly tested by means of his scale.

[@kellharris2491]

You know the actor Sir Ian said he preferred being Gandalf the Grey for this very reason. Gandalf the Grey was more like your friend and a mortal but Gandalf the White was a being beyond everyone.

[@Michaell22]

rey from star wars is defo a mary sue

[@Dynnen]

Luke was way more of a Mary Sue, and it's both totally fine

[@Michaell22]

@@Dynnen Nah, they made rey palpatine's granddaughter to try and justify it, can fly the millennium falcon better than Han, insane with the force, beats Kylo Ren on her first fight, so many more, they should have explained it a bit more

[@vileluca]

@@Dynnen His lost arm would disagree.

[@ambbb4691]

The time he spent training as a Jedi would also disagree.

[@Mwezi828]

Sue shall not pass

[@muyoung1591]

I found their lack of knowledge of Tolkien to be both equal parts Hilarious and Infuriating! Fun!

[@bixmcgoo5355]

I wish this questionnaire was at least a little less biased. Calling Gandalf a human just so you can say "yes" to one question, then admitting that he's not in any way human for the literal next question was just the most blatant example

[@harmonicarchipelgo9351]

Yeah, they were using technicalities and even twisting or misinterpreting questions to add as many points as they possibly could. Also "if your score is too high, you probably misread the instructions"..... they never read the instructions.

[@Memento_Mori]

These two doing what amounts to a Cosmo quiz about Gandalf is the best episode of podcasting in a long time.

[@someguyschannel9976]

I think it's hilarious that most of the yes that you give him are because of things that happen in the movies but didn't happen in the books, however all of the comparisons are supposed to be to the author, still a fun episode.

[@dantehosseini1950]

In "Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Tolkien addressed the suggestion that he was living vicariously through Gandalf or something. He said no, and he said that if he identified with any of his characters, he identified with Faramir.

[@danguillou713]

I think the list is stupid. The good looks checks go on forever. It’s a wishfulfillment list, and like you guys established, that is not the definition of MarySueness. Influenced by osp I’m going to ask: How often does the story twist reality and character logic for no other reason than to make Gandalf look awesome? Not very often. Does other characters get to do anything useful or interesting when Gandalf is around? All the time. Does the text contain a lot of scenes with zero narrative function, except to focus on his awesomeness? Nope. Does it contain scenes where other characters talk about his awesomeness, without doing anything else for the plot? Nope. Gandalf is not a MarySue. But Dumbledore might be.

[@mohammedzawia1054]

Funniest episode, Brandon has such a contagious laugh.

[@stevenmontoya7275]

The issue with this list is that Gandalf is not the central character to LoTR. He is the mentor character that sets the heroes on their journey. He by definition cannot be a Mary Sue. The difference between a Mary Sue archetype and not is only really relevant for characters that have that prototypical heroes' journey, i.e. the protagonists. Also is the story comedy or drama. A comedy can be great with a Mary Sue character as the protagonist. Without context the idea of a Mary Sue is meaningless. Whereas I would argue, a Mary Sue is a character that is naturally good at anything without effort (or not a sufficient amount of effort) that has no flaws. Rey as an example is perfect because even when she teases with going to the dark side, she doesn't. When you think she killed Chewy, she didn't. She can do no wrong. That's why she is a Mary Sue.

[@imakeathesound6909]

Again. Thanks for the podcast! I love just being able to here your takes and opinions. Your life experiences are super interesting and it comes through in your effortless dialogue! The podcast is part of my weekly routine and helps to keep me sane ;)

[@zackglenn2847]

31:57 - There are actually a few other examples of characters being resurrected. Glorfindel, Beren, and Luthien come to mind.

[@davidmackie3497]

Glorfindel resurrected? When was that?

[@zackglenn2847]

@@davidmackie3497 He died slaying a Balrog during the fall of Gondolin in the first age. Because of the many lives his actions saved, he was brought back to life and sent to middle earth as an emissary of the Valar during the second age.

[@Blixthand]

Gandalf was a Dwarf in Norse mythology, found in The Edda, and there is a version of the Hobbit where Christopher Tolkien has written a preface with notes and copies of a very early draft of the first few pages where the character who eventually became Thorin was named Gandalf, so while "fandom" might not be the right word, he did take the name from somewhere else. I think all or almost all of the Dwarves names comes form norse mythology

[@Jasonwolf1495]

Theres a pretty huge gap between "Im a literal doctor of linguistics and have as such used the history and culture presented from ancient texts to develop a modern (for the time) spin on them" and "I named my character Saske... totally unrelated to that 'super cool' naruto character."

[@gordo6908]

@@devinreese7704 in the immortal words of charles williams "again with the elves?"

[@MCArt25]

@@Jasonwolf1495 the "huge gap" is that you've watched Naruto and know all the characters' names, whereas Tolkien would have had to look them up on 1950s Wikipedia

[@Jasonwolf1495]

@@MCArt25 the funny thing is i know nothing about naruto besides the things people rag on, so i picked saske purely to make fun edgy fun fiction writers. Which i will totally own being one two decades ago, but that was for pokemon.

[@WoTMike1989]

Let’s be frank. The term is almost exclusively used to refer to female characters in modern forums. It is acceptable for male characters. It comes down to execution. Just like tropes.

[@pabloneyrotte]

Not a big fan of podcasts, but damn I can hear this two guys talk for hours. Hope you guys keep doing this.

[@ReadyPlayerPiano]

I also think it's an important point that Gandalf is never the primary protagonist. Also, threat scaling can handle Mary Sue-ism. Raymond Feist is a good example to me of an author who made his initial characters far too powerful, learned from his error, shifted focus to far more grounded characters, but still kept the originals in play to handle mega threats.

[@nschep]

Yeah I fully agree it matters a lot that he isn't the primary protagonist. Also, a lot of the times when he saves the group it requires others help. Ie helms deep when he arrives with eomir ita not just him that saves the day, he needs the army to help.

[@StarlitSeafoam]

I think there's one valid definition of Mary Sue: a character who never suffers consequences for their actions, ESPECIALLY relationally. When a character is the absolute worst to other characters and the story refuses to recognize the pain they're causing, THAT is a Mary Sue. And grounds for me to add them to my "Most Hated Characters" list. Oddly, under that definition, James Bond (Daniel Craig version) isn't a Mary Sue because the story openly admits when Bond messes up, both relationally and at his job. He regrets things. Meanwhile, Jar Jar Binks is a Mary Sue because the story, and Jar Jar, never admit that he hurts people. He never once regrets anything.

[@relytdragon5626]

I'm already wearing weird clothing in public. In the middle of the summer I wear a trench coat, a sash and a steam punk tophat. Or a pirate hat. Most every day.

[@oneclipleft]

Dan casually dropping a Presidents of the United States of America reference was not something I was ready for.

[@thisisjeff9845]

If you're hired to patrol the peach orchards to protect the peaches, are you a peach copler?

[@Dynnen]

*chef's kiss*

[@aletta7713]

Absolutely beautiful.

[@therenegadebard3971]

In the Hobbit, he is a Mary Sue relative to the other characters. I think Tolkien removed him from the story for a time for that very reason. In LOTR he shows fear and ineptitude, makes mistakes, becomes ill-tempered, and is duped by Saruman. He exhibits all the things you would expect as a part of character growth. Also, he is not the biggest and badest on the block. He is powerful. But not the most powerful. Sure he is killed and comes back. But the elves are no different. They can't die either. In fact, Glorfindel was killed in the First Age.

[@christianekman]

I feel silly correcting Brandon Sanderson of all people on topics of fiction. But a Mary Sue is not just someone who's handsome and really good at something etc. It's when it's completely unearned that someone is obscenely good at something. It's not unearned in Gandalf's case. He's literally an arch angel in the LoTR lore. He's on the same level as Sauron. Why *wouldn't* he be great at magic, or be able to communicate with eagles? A Mary Sue would rather be, for example, a random human being who is obscenely good at dueling despite never having done it before. As Gandalf is not a person, and in no way have skills that are unearned, he does not fit the description of a Mary Sue whatsoever.

[@authvin]

This is such a good episode, absolutely hilarious from beginning to end

[@nosuchthing8]

It's so boring

[@Systematic_Speaking]

One of the 'De-Sue-ifiers' should be "Is your character Gandalf?"

[@devilonyourshoulder8845]

I think having characters like Gandalf being a ‘Mary Sue’ is okay at times because they are technically side characters or the mentor characters. It becomes a legitimate critique when the main character is something like a ‘Mary Sue’ in my opinion, unless a large plot point involves them being one

[@nyarparablepsis872]

My cat died last night in my arms and this keeps me from falling into depression. Thanks guys

[@YOSUP315]

The test is bogus on the face of it. Hundreds and hundreds of questions and you have to score less than like 10 to be considered not a Mary-Sue? Or else the character has to be super ugly and clumsy etc? That's just muddying the waters. There's a fundamental difference between a Mary-Sue (Rey "Skywalker") and a paragon (Gandalf): the paragon actually earned it, while the Mary-Sue has everything handed to her with a weak-sauce explanation(if any). Hate to say it because I loved a lot a stuff in a lot of his books, but this videos is one more of the subtle demonstrations Brandon turns off his rational mind when it comes to feminism. He decided feminism is good, and works to subtlety mitigate any criticism against it. And Brandon, if you're reading this, I'm sincerely sorry you didn't get to be raised by your own father.

[@vexhia6792]

Highly competent “Mary sue” characters can totally work and be compelling as long as they are challenged in an area where success is uncertain. For example in the manga One Punch Man, the protagonist is very powerful and competent but faces emotional challenges that force him to grow, creating compelling conflict. Gandalf may be extraordinarily powerful, competent, and emotionally capable, but his arc surrounds his ability to mentor and guide the other characters spiritually. In this endeavor, success is uncertain, as the people of middle-Earth face real struggles and temptations which can blind them to hope. The uncertainty of success and the seemingly near-impossibility of Gandalf’s task creates compelling conflict.

[@CroioVolador]

Episode 69. nice

[@TheRussianSaint18]

I know I am wizardly late to the party, but they state that only Gandalf gets brought back to life. This isn't true; Glorfindel also gets sent back following his heroic attempt to fight off multiple(?) Balrogs I believe in the First or Second Age.

[@asterysmgaming9912]

The evaluation feels like it's written by someone who's trying to promote being a Mary Sue as a good progressive thing? Some of the social questions in the middle felt unrelated to the concept of being a Mary Sue.

[@spencerurban1092]

This has become one of my favorite podcasts because it is interesting and light hearted. Most interesting podcasts are at least somewhat serious or even heavy, topic-wise; most light hearted dialogue isn’t that interesting.

[@ryanwatson4388]

I didn't think listening to a buzzfeed quiz would be entertaining! A lot of Mary Sue characters are specifically identified because the groundwork pertaining to their abilities was fully laid out. In the example Brandon used, Rey is an amazing pilot and the audience was never shown how she gained those abilities. Just "oh yea I'm a pilot".

[@DerynAikins]

An important reason why Rey being a Mary Sue (or whatever term you want to use for a character lacking realistic flaws) matters more than Gandalf being one, is that Rey is the main character of her story and Gandalf is a supporting character. Main characters in particular need to have flaws because the audience sees the story through them and needs to be able to relate to them. This matters less with supporting characters like Gandalf, which is why he can have all of his cool and overpowered traits without being considered badly written.

[@KalleVilenius]

Gandalf is a fool who can't even read the instructions for opening the doors of Moria properly. He needed extra lessons in Elvish grammar.

[@jelmerprins]

You know what would be funny, swapping their position or mirroring the video in and see how upset people are

[@Sealdog]

This one feels like they’re trying too hard to make it fit. Like, they had an answer to this question before making the episode and are trying to make a point. Also, combining Gandalf in the book and Gandalf in the movie is … disingenuous. Gandalf is literally a messenger from the gods, sent to help out the peoples of Middle Earth. Anyway, Galadriel (EDIT: Rings of Power version) IS one and a tongue in cheek podcast doesn’t detract from that.

[@Lashb1ade]

You have a weird definition of Mary Sue. Edit: I assume you know that the person who coined the term was a woman right?

[@Ashgarify]

Thr Maiar are part of the Ainur family of beings, the other being the Valar. So both guesses were correct!

[@timschwartz5]

Brandon should retake the quiz using Dalinar. I believe he would easily score above 50 as well.

[@bfkc111]

Maiar is a subcategory for Ainur. Ainur are all the "main" supernatural beings, divided into Valar and the (lesser) Maiar. Tolkien indulged a bit in the fact and hints that there are other supernatural beings and things, like the barrow-wights, or even dragons, which are sometimes described as "evil spirits" trapped in those bodies. Or more prominently in the oldest myth: Ungoliant, one of the biggest abominations. (Heck, even things like the Nameless Things beneath Moria, which "gnaw" the world, which is a hellishly cool description. And which probably is also the origin of that thing in the pool at the gate of Moria.) ("Ainur" arguably also inspired the term "Aiur" for the homeplanet of the Protoss in the classic real-time strategy game StarCraft. Although I believe there is also a Hindu/Indoeuropean basis? Maybe for both.)

[@lolroflundxd]

Loved the episode, super fun! On the topic of Mary Sues. Obviously, if you see the term as sexist and loaded with pre conceived notions, you would advocate for not using the term. If you do not see the term like that, you might still have problems, because other people see the term like that. But it also doesn't feel fair, to let other people "appropriate" words and decide their meaning. Maybe I am using the term wrong, but for me it isn't sexist. And for me, a Mary Sue character encompasses, that they make the story worse. It could be argued, that in that case the Mary Sue label is not useful. But I think it is: It sums up a common trope. If we want to get deeper into it, nothings stopping us.

[@theoriesandsuppositions5553]

Given hie many times people ( everyone really ) refer to or talk about fanfiction in a variety of situations, I would like to know whether our authors for the evening have ever tried it? I know Brandon is pretty ok with fanfiction as a whole ( it's a pity there's not much cosmere rltd ones - yet. Maybe there'll be more post adaptation ) by has he read some of it? Curious.

[@BrandSanderson]

I'm afraid the only fanfiction I've read is My Immortal. Because how could I resist? I generally stay away from fanfic about my work, though I'm perfectly fine with people writing it. You could argue that Children of the Nameless is fanfic that I wrote, and I'd agree. (The distinction being I wanted to write that before Wizards came to me, where WoT is something I had never considered doing on my own.)

[@One_Bar]

Actually the weight one pertains to Gandalf after he returns. Gwahir tells him his burden is light as a feather because his old life had been burned away.

[@hillary6563]

Millions of peaches, peaches for me. Millions of peaches, peaches for free...😜

[@luminous3558]

Honestly gandalf is overpowered af but a lot of things in LotR are. The one character which I'd say comes close is legolas because he is actually just a stupidly powerful fighter who isn't really integral to the story in a story sense. Gandalf sets things in motion and generally is a part of the story because the story needs a character like him. Legolas is just a fighter and a part of the multiple companions that make up the fellowship. When I think of a Mary Sue type character whats the biggest factor tends to be them feeling foreign to the story they are in. This applies to neither Gandalf nor Legolas. The story doesn't want/need the Mary sue to be a part of it, the author does. So the story will want to go certain ways but due to the foreign object it needs to work around it can come off as awkward. Gandalf has been fairly naturally worked around in LotR despite his power. The soft magic system also does a lot of work there.

[@killgriffinnow]

Gandalf got owned by Saruman. He couldn’t take the Ring because it would corrupt him. He needed to be saved by Eagles at least three times. He’s about as far away from a Mary Sue as you can get.

[@kronos1794]

Ok, not just me. I'm like, Gandalf was actually kinda the burnout wizard and if not for the others being absent, evil, and Radagast he'd be the worst.

[@darkestthinker9639]

For gandalf eyes they are described at one point as being as black as cols ready to burst in to flame

[@AlexLusth]

oh man, that Presidents of the United States of America reference was an awesome deep cut xD I was hoping someone would pick up on that.

[@OntheOtherHandVideos]

I'm glad they had fun as usual, but this wasn't a very interesting episode for me - imo the wore out the point of this idea about 5 minutes into the quiz, and then it wasn't as entertaining or informative as they usually tend to be. They took all the time to make a point instead of having an interesting conversation about who is or isn't a Mary Sue and why - it would have been much more interesting to have the discussion on characters being lazily written vs what is intentional and works with stories - going through characters in detail for why they do or do not work like Rey, James Bond, Gandalf, etc.

[@CmikeDnD]

I recently just heard that supposedly Tolkien never "technically" gave elves pointy ears in the books. he does say "leaf like", but that's about it. The pointy ears came in art made later. Is that true?

[@TheJafjaf07]

Please, please, please do the Mery Sue on Wayne(Mistborn), or in that matter any of Brandon's characters.

[@AnathemaMysticalcel]

I think sanderson has commented on such things before. You will notice that Wax and Wayne do many things considered Mary Sue. That's why Sanderson gives them something more in the realm of character development not ability development. Yes they are awesome gun stingers. But they are awesome gunslingers with guilt ridden pasts, trying to figure out the right way to behave, all while dealing with being manipulated by god.

[@tomasxfranco]

I don´t think a lot of the answers were correct. Brandon´s headcannon of Gandalf is pretty different. He´s basically Odin, he´s disguised as a frail old man. He´s supposed to look weak and unthreatening, not cool and badass.

[@reaganorton1710]

I was able to meet Ben and his lovely wife at last years convention. Very nice people, I’m looking forward to whatever antics happen next week

[@paulcourtemanche3549]

Maiar is a subset of Ainur.

[@jamesmahalek6471]

Not going to rage about the title, but please pleaaaaase be aware that your device’s storage is unencrypted without any kind of passcode lock set.

[@oneukum]

2. Gandalf as a name is taken from the Edda, a dwarf from the list of dwarves. Norse, not Finnish or Welsh.

[@aerowyn]

You mis-used the Mary-Sue test. It's meant to be applied to fanfiction characters added in to the original universe by a new author, but Gandalf is part of the original story written by the original author. If Middle-Earth was someone else's world and then Tolkien added in Gandalf as this impossibly wise and powerful being that everyone listens to then yeah, he would have been a Mary-Sue. He also would have carried the ring to Mordor himself and defeated Sauron in Mount Doom in an epic sword fight. Instead, Tolkien very much knew he was writing Gandalf as a self-insertion character and carefully used him in a reserved way in the story without making it all about himself. I can say the same thing about Sazed in your own Mistborn. He clearly holds points of view that mirror your own and exists to share them with the other characters and the reader directly. There's ultimately no other character more powerful and moral than he is. And yet, is it a problem? It's not. The story isn't about him, and the purpose of the books is not to convince the readers of how right his/your beliefs are. You knew he was a Mary-Sue, so you used him carefully from the beginning. Ultimately, you can say a lot of characters are Mary-Sues, but that doesn't mean they are inherently bad characters if still written well. The test is best used by young, naive authors who don't realize they're writing themselves into their own book as a wish-fulfillment fantasy. Avoiding Mary-Sues is a good rule, but like all rules a master of the craft will know when to break it.

[@Colaman112]

"Ultimately, you can say a lot of characters are Mary-Sues, but that doesn't mean they are inherently bad characters if still written well." Congratulations, you found the point of the episode!

[@aerowyn]

​@@Colaman112 If you were watching you would have seen Brandon's summary at the end of the episode when he says "Let's stop using the term Mary Sue" because he finds it pointless. But it does have a point! Just in a specific context, as I explained, and within that context it is a very useful term.

[@Colaman112]

@@aerowyn Brandon's summary at the end is exactly why I made that comment, since it seemed like you had missed it.

[@aerowyn]

@@Colaman112 I can't imagine how you could make that mistake. Perhaps you should read a comment more carefully before casually insulting its writer.

[@OriginalAdMan]

@Brandon Sanderson 23:00 your logic there contradicts itself between those 2 questions You can pick: A) YES, Gandalf is "unusually good" since we consider him a HUMAN B) or YES, Galdalf is part of a super race with super powers ...which is it? Are we considering Gandalf a Maiar or human for the purposes of the quiz?

[@willardlarkinsnow5622]

The reason Gandalfs hyper competence doesn’t hurt the story is because although he is shown to be hyper competent, he is not the primary protagonist of each conflict. The only things that Gandalf does that no one else could do is he fights the Balrog, (and arguably pays a pretty significant cost) and he frees king Theoden from Sarumans grasp. Even though Gandalf is the hyper competent one, Frodo carry’s the ring. Sam saves Frodo from Shelob. Aragorn is becomes king of Gondor. Eowen kills the Witch King. Gandalfs hyper competence is not used to enhance his character and overshadow the others

[@kirkwagner461]

Going to the Japan, Gonna steal a lotta peaches.

[@ACPritchard]

James Bond would be a Mary Sue if he didn’t succeed at his flat arc. If the writer fails to follow through on promises or a lack of logic behind the character or just fails at the iconic character, you get Mary Sue. It applies to both sexes now. Hence the title of your video. (:

[@mbuhler6892]

My favorite episode yet! Please do the other half of the quiz with a different character! Maybe a villain?

[@oldhobosam2742]

Okay, can someone give me the link for this masterpiece of a quiz

[@MadAtreides1]

25:20 what a convinient way to forget Tolkien view on the "Gift of Man"...

[@perrinsedai]

As someone who dabbles in baking from time to time, I will say that pies are worth so much more than cakes. On a basic level, when you make a cake, it's just make batter, throw it in the oven, and throw some frosting on it. With a pie, however, you have to make the crust and filling, and when you bake it if you did anything wrong the whole bottom of the crust will be soggy.