Is It Okay To Cry? Group Up! Podcast feat. Awkward

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Timestamps
0:00

[@GroupUp]

This episode was recorded on 23/08/23. Podcast links below! Here is the original video SVB made which sparked this discussion kzbin.info/www/bejne/rGPSaYluiKh3jrcsi=rYxA41p_379Exfrd The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: on.soundcloud.com/8p6cY Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpaa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265

[@matthiasm9047]

I'm about 1h:30min into the discussion from the twitch VOD. Would it be possible to add a trigger warning and links to support hotlines etc. regarding the sensitive topics? (unaliving prevention)

[@ElmoRitter]

This was truly awkward.

[@sieg5857]

Him saying people subconsciously looking down on you for crying heavily when your dad dies is crazy.

[@benjamincordoba984]

happened subconsciously when i saw my dad cry. its how your mind works

[@gsoma4022]

Saw my dad cry and realized he's really hurt I never saw him differently or anyone different

[@ontoshere]

@@benjamincordoba984 it's how YOUR mind works. That's not a good thing. Not to say you're a bad person for that happening, but that being a subconscious response from you is certainly due to something you've experienced or learned. I've never once looked down on someone for crying over something upsetting happening.

[@cullenshadow1007]

That’s not what he said. He said that someone who cannot control to cry over something that’s not important will make others subconsciously lose some respect for him or her. He said that crying on your father’s funeral is totally acceptable.

[@reynal_omnicide9217]

I remember I cried 1 time when my dad died and this lady came to me to basically say "suck it up your dad would've wanted you to be strong" I felt absolute rage and wanted to punch her in the face. What a braindead take

[@dallayg]

I mean the take that when a parent dies you can tear up but not really cry is actually insane

[@yomama2376]

I even cry over dreams where my parents die, awkward would hate me lol

[@theredguy92]

Feeling emotions and letting them pass is masculine. Bottling up your feelings until you lash out is childish.

[@laservolcanogaming6943]

Isn’t that what awkward said too?

[@J.R.Swish1]

​@@laservolcanogaming6943 no, it isn't. He said that expressing leads to lashing out, but he suppresses them which also leads to lashing out, just in a different way.

[@mrsilencer5542]

“Letting pass” that is controlled, done from having a lot of self awareness

[@valikkster]

"Letting them pass" and "suppressing" them are effectively synonymous.

[@timothyjupiter5748]

But then aren't children the ones who act on their emotions?? Like the older u go, the more you keep bottling up your feeling... Because life is just serving you lemons

[@insepra7882]

All I'll say is SVB has immense patience to go in a circle like this with this guy for this long. Bless up

[@whosurjustin]

Awkward has a safer approach, whereas svb is about expressing and letting it out. Sitting in an room and thinking about your emotions doesn't necessarily fix the problem either. In fact, sitting in a room and contemplating your emotions can occasionally lead to spiraling into more negative emotions. Crying, in general, isn't wrong in itself. But saying crying is a productive release of emotion is a stretch. There are times when it is okay, but crying in itself also won't fix the problem. Working out doesnt either, but you're bettering yourself in another way helps balance out and center yourself to deal with the problem more logically and with a level head.

[@kayanono]

@@whosurjustin dont know what happened to u to think like that but i hope u can fix it somehow. Awkward and other hypermasculine idiots sell yall this "stoicism" which is everything but that.

[@cocob0l0]

@@whosurjustinBut that’s such an individual thing. People deal with things in different ways. What works for you won’t work for others and vice versa. There is no objective way to deal with life problems.

[@Aurora12488]

​@@whosurjustin Crying does not fix the problem, but actually letting yourself *feel* emotions is absolutely part of the solution. It may seem more "efficient" to just skip the emotional stage and go straight to problem solving, but that's not how our biology works. The emotional component is fundamental to our logical component, and trying to focus on the latter and neglect the former is a recipe for disaster. It's like the people who emphasize getting 4 hours of sleep to maximize the grind; on paper it sounds like yes, you theoretically have more hours to get shit done, but in practice anyone can tell you that the effects of lack of sleep are antagonistic to the quality of actually getting things done, and it just makes you a ticking time bomb for burn out and health issues. The reality is, we're still biological creatures, and coming to terms with what that entails is critical for a healthy and well-adapted lifestyle.

[@YazzPott]

@@whosurjustinA reasonable take, finally. Reality lies somewhere in the middle, both extremes are bad. There are valid points on both sides, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. It’s a shame people dont talk, open mindedly, with people they disagree with much anymore. At the end of the day, I don’t agree with either of these two completely, but I respect them tremendously for having this conversation and giving me things to think about.

[@NolansGoons]

The fact that Awkward's explanation of his """emotional control""" philosophy essentially boils down to "if you're sad you should work out or you'll inevitably commit power-off" or "if you're mad you should work out or you'll inevitably commit domestic terrorism" speaks a lot to how little he actually cares/believes in what he's taking about, and/or just how unhealthy he is mentally. If he ever skips leg day should they enter a state of national emergency?

[@cocob0l0]

It’s weird isn’t it? Everyone feels everything to a certain extent. There are some days where we may not be happy within ourselves but (unless you are actually suicidal) that doesn’t mean you’re going to commit self-delete. Those that do feel these extreme emotions like what he’s describing have something wrong with them medically. Regular crying will rarely lead to mental illness. People should experience small amount of everything, both “positive” and “negative” emotions as he describes them (which is very simplistic. Being angry or fearful in certain contexts can be beneficial for you/being happy in certain contexts may not work in your favour etc). His view on it all is just super basic and reductionist with very little nuance

[@andreyk9660]

It seems that Awkward has some very deep emotions which should be discussed with therapist. Denying emotions is not a healthy sign, I agree with you

[@staroxi_music]

​​@@andreyk9660A potential issue with therapy is that people might be treated as if something is wrong with them and that they are a problem that needs fixing. Seeking outsiders opinions on your own life and then using that to steer yourself in another direction might not work out for everyone. Personally I trust my mind to guide me and make my own choices, however limited those choices are as a working class citizen today is a whole situation I won't dive into in this comment. For those who find solace in venting a form of therapy might be helpful, it all depends on the circumstances and who's providing the therapy as to what approach they'll take. Btw I'm just speaking generally, I didn't watch the video because it sounds like it would piss me off. Perhaps the dude is a threat to society, I have no idea.

[@darksplash873]

Awkward the kind of guy to bring a dumbbell to a family member's funeral cause he prefers to work out than to cry

[@morezombies9685]

That's clearly not what he means haha. He's saying if you are crying frequently then you most likely lack emotional control. I highly doubt he'd judge someone for crying over their dead parent. Awkward says things that are easy for people like you to misinterpret. Sometimes I think he digs his heels into a more traditional masculine mindset a bit too much, but what he's saying here isn't that crazy. You can strawman him all you want about it but at the end of the day he is talking about emotional control. He literally mentions in the beginning of the video that having these emotions is normal and healthy. It is the expression and control over those emotions that he's speaking of. Everyone's focusing on the crying but his actual point is one of emotional control and expression and how we need to be careful to express ourselves emotionally in a productive way. If your only response to sadness or negativity in life is to cry then it certainly will become a negative coping mechanism.

[@darksplash873]

@@morezombies9685 Already judging from reading one sentence, are we... I completely understand his points, I just made a joke cause his perspective feels so exaggerated. He is making a caricature out of himself, and I'm just reflecting on that in my comment. He says some good, some dumb things, but the way he expresses them and makes them sound so trivial yet extreme at the same time is just silly to me

[@morezombies9685]

@@darksplash873 you literally only posted a single sentence how exactly am I supposed to judge anything more than a single sentence lmao.

[@Ceran_Vasse]

Crying is human. Shaming half the world's population for crying is inhuman.

[@RequiemOfSolo]

It's not mindless shaming. You clearly misunderstood

[@kuturu]

@@RequiemOfSolo It is engagement bait and a genuinely goddamn awful thing to say. It's really funny to me because men shame other men for being in touch with their emotions - and then go and complain about men's absurdly high s*icide rates. Make it make sense

[@ljb5163]

@@RequiemOfSoloand he’s wrong.

[@RequiemOfSolo]

@@ljb5163 cope harder for you trying to rationalize your beta tendencies

[@samrodway1850]

@@RequiemOfSoloahh right you’re one of those

[@Blackbirddc]

Laughing uncontrollably is one of the best feelings on the planet. Dudes way off base. I hope he grows up a little bit and learns it's okay to cry and laugh.

[@Nick-ht5yi]

Bogur’s viewpoint comes across as insecure tbh

[@nathandawson2762]

⁠@@Nick-ht5yinot Bogur lol

[@TomMorello725]

Laughing or crying free, knowing that is healthy and makes you a better person, a human, is the best. Living free feels so good, not caring about toxic models of masculinity that promote violence (hidden in many cases) and zero critical thinking. It is hard for many teenagers to avoid those models but I hope many of them can be better persons in their communities and for themselves :) Men have more suicidal tendencies but hey, there are men who think it's your fault instead of understanding structural problems inherited from a violent understanding of masculinity. I love you social science!

[@rioriorio17]

@@Nick-ht5yiblud did not read the title or watch the video 😭

[@demifolk8940]

@@TomMorello725it’s ironic he said that since his philosophy on emotions and stuff is more similar to actual serial killers and mass murderers lmao. thats what leads to people being less empathetic, which leads to being more violent

[@Xiatter]

If Awkward thinks acting on your emotions means grabbing a gun and shooting people, he needs therapy, at least.

[@ReaveIdono]

But that is an emotional response.

[@Xiatter]

@@ReaveIdono Most things people do are emotional responses. Even if they claim they're logical.

[@ReaveIdono]

@Xiatter Yeah if you don't have any emotional intelligence. Which I agree that most don't. But that doesn't change the fact that grabbing a gun and hurting people isn't an emotional response.

[@mrlunar62]

@@ReaveIdono people that cry statistically have a better time dealing with their emotions and people that suppress their emotions r the ones that will be likelier to grab a gun to either shoot themselves or others

[@ReaveIdono]

@mrlunar62 Awkward didn't say "don't cry". He said saying it's OK to cry is akin to telling someone it's OK to punch someone in the face. Basically giving into your emotions and not controlling them like a healthy individual should. If you cry because someone died? That's fine. If you are crying because someone said something that hurt your feelings? That's not ok.

[@MrSoBitchy]

7 minutes in and he's already mentioned the logical fallacy he's operating under: slippery slope. His entire base for his side is flawed

[@chilibruh]

He doesn't realize that he's already at the bottom of that slope lmao. Just like the rest of the male population. Not sure if it should be called slippery though, when we were all pushed.

[@cullenshadow1007]

What do you mean?

[@Joutube_is_trash]

I've seen the slippery slope in action far too often to continue regarding it as a logical fallacy. That's the equivalent to saying indulgence in habit forming behavior will lead to addiction is a fallacious argument.

[@psd.3144]

@@Joutube_is_trash logical fallacies have no point when dealing with human reason in the first place. anything that is fallacious for one situation can prove not to be in another similar situation, this is why they are only really worth pointing out in a persuasive debate... which this is not. even in debate it is really only worth mentioning because it can sway an audience if the opposing side cannot rebut the claim. in this situation, you have two people that have applied their own reasoning to the idea of people crying and arrived at two polar opposite conclusions.

[@joegarrison5911]

No slippery slope is 100% a thing. I don't know who says its not but I've seen it so many times in my life to deny it exist.

[@lush1us]

complete guess. He was actually bullied into this way of thinking by his close circle of friends/family. I have my own story of being bullied into someone i'm not. i moved 8000 miles away and now finally i stopped feeling the pressure. And now all I am seeing from Awkward is him trying to bully others with this style of thinking only to fall flat when people actually push back as intelligently as SVB did

[@ashonline77]

Damn you might be on to something lol. I had a very similar experience as a person. I was bullied when i was a kid for being soft and quiet so when i grew up a bit, i went to the gym, was friends with all the masculine men and simply ignored all the toxic behavior i saw from them to fit in and then i moved from my home country in asia to the UK. Ever since, i feel like ive been myself and i only keep a friend circle of people who are like me. I feel like awkward maybe never got out of that life and that's where all this might be coming from or maybe he's just a red pill guy idk lol.

[@cocob0l0]

@@ashonline77I don’t think he’s a red pill guy per se, but he definitely displays those kinds of sentiments where you should never be slacking off and ALWAYS striving for improvement constantly and if you’re not, you’re an NPC (his words not mine). I hope someone is able to open his mind about these sorts of things a little bit, or worse, that this mentality eventually bites him in the butt in a bad way. Because it will happen. He will realise one day that this way of thinking will only get you so far

[@andreyk9660]

@@cocob0l0 This happens a lot when there's a very strong father figure or some other kind of agression in a man's life early. The agression and pressure gets "internalized" and you get yourself a "little Awkward" telling you that if you are not pushing, you are bad.

[@Ninja_Tude]

Even the stoics disagree with Awkward. Read or Listen to Marcus Aurelius' "Meditations." Crying itself isn't losing control, it's crying uncontrollably. A stoic feels the emotion, acknowledges the emotion, and says "now is not the time I will process you later." Example: you're father's funeral, you're giving the eulogy. Generally speaking you try to "keep it together" until at least your task is done. But no one is going to mock your crying eventually. It's about controlling the time and place. Crying is a natural way to vent grief, pain, despair and even anger.

[@rioriorio17]

As someone who takes a lot of inspiration, yes

[@YTHandlesWereAMistake]

Thank you for the valuable insight, this seems to be valuable (at least more so than the current podcast, as it feels so far at 1h mark) Do you have any other suggestions, i.e. "further reading"?

[@mrlunar62]

Exactly

[@Ninja_Tude]

@@YTHandlesWereAMistake sorry didn't see a notification that you had a question. Jung has some parallels to eastern philosophy, so exploring something like Buddhist principles could apply to emotional intelligence and emotional management. I can't really suggest too much on psychology in particular. But there's nothing wrong with looking at classics, history, and the western Canon; Plato; Aristotle; Thomas Acquinas; Hobbes; Locke; Rousseau; Kant; Machievelli are all philosophy Classics could start with Homer and Thucydides, Rome history is its own beast entirely, My general point being a study of history and philosophy gives one a lot of tools and broad perspective to help with one's outlook and these types of concerns

[@cullenshadow1007]

Which is also Awkward’s point. He said to acknowledge and feel an emotion while also doing something productive to feel good about yourself.

[@josephreynolds2401]

Crying doesn't hurt anyone. Anger and rage can be deafeningly loud and physically violent. No way these 2 are being conflated.

[@supern0is349]

it isnt just about hurting people. Crying is a display of weakness which isnt desirable for a men. Its also very repulsive to women, which in turn can make them reject you or break up with you.

[@SadMatte]

@@supern0is349 I believe this is a myth. Imagine not wanting someone simply because they can do a thing that by nature they are born with. I've even heard it's attractive to occasionally cry

[@supern0is349]

@@SadMatte dude how old are you? myth?are you trolling? this is the absolute truth and i've seen this with my own eyes (friends). "Imagine not wanting someone simply because they can do a thing that by nature they are born with." what?dafuq you're talking about? Since when being born with something means its usefull ,desirable or even acceptable? Most women dont want to be a paraplegic, or autistic, or with a guy with down sindrome. Sorry, its the truth. Women dont even want short men, even thought thats something they have zero control over it and they were born with it.

[@Daveyjonesvi]

@@supern0is349Would you want a woman to shame you for crying and showing emotions. You are putting value on the wrong people

[@Nick-ht5yi]

@@supern0is349grow up. if your girl breaks up with you because you cried, then you dodged a bullet and she was never meant for you.

[@echoesact3713]

No way bro actually thinks crying is equal to physically assaulting someone 😂

[@saturn7595]

No hate to Awkward but man this was a wild conversation. The point at which he said that unregulated emotions from crying could lead to mass shootings i lost so much faith in his capabilities on speaking on this topic. Bro, really said: “if you let people cry then the logical conclusion is they’re going to shoot up a crowd” Fuck man, the fact that SVB kept his cool so well honestly is a testament to his emotional discipline lmao SVB won this “debate” by a land slide. I want to see more of this stuff from him

[@ironman1458]

It just comes off to me as really strange projection cause wtf lol

[@ashonline77]

its so weird because if anything, people who are not regulating their emotions, not getting help and overall not being in touch with your emotions is what leads to people like that. If something happens, then crying about it is a better response than being angry about it. Crying IS regulating your emotion, so is talking to people about your emotions. it doesn't make you any less manly and it certainly isn't gonna lead up to shooting up a crowd like wtf. ngl this is giving some red pill bullshit take.

[@UncleJemima]

this is just par for the course for awkward. he talks a big game but doesn't offer much of substance beyond the superficial when it comes to "life coaching" I don't hate the guy, but he is a pretty clear example of how being good at or knowledgeable about one specific thing in life (Overwatch) doesn't automatically extend to other domains

[@cullenshadow1007]

Well how can you prove that it does not? To me it does make sense that somebody who cannot control their emotions and acts on their emotions will do something like that. If a kid is feeling sad because someone keeps messing with him at school, and he was told to act on his emotions, which are hatred and anger towards the person who is messing with him; it would make sense to me that the kid would probably physically hurt the person that is messing with him because he wasn’t taught to control them and use those emotions towards something productive.

[@ashonline77]

@@cullenshadow1007 the problem with his logic is that he categories crying as unregulated emotion or lack of control over your emotions which is the opposite of the truth. Crying is regulating your emotions. You're hard wired to feel less sad about something after you cry about it. His logic would make sense if he's talking about someone who cannot control their anger but doesn't make sense when he thinks crying automatically escalates to extreme actions like shooting up. The same way most kids that got bullied simply did nothing about it other than cry and grow up promising themselves to be better person than those bullies while only the extreme and rare cases end up unable to control their anger about it and ended up worse than the bullies.

[@theredguy92]

It seems like awkward answer for everything is to ignore his emotions and take actions but in some cases that can not only be harmful to yourself but to others. If you just experienced a bad breakup and are feeling down the answer isn’t to take action and find a new relationship as soon as possible. The answer is to process your feelings, heal, and then move on. Not allowing a person to process their emotions and heal is the actual slippery slope.

[@etowesho]

Haven’t started yet, but the thumbnail is wild. Crying is a show of emotion, just like smiling and laughing. Should we stop laughing too?

[@GrizzlyBeardz]

Dude has a take on laughing as well 😂

[@ljb5163]

Yeah Awkward just turned his brain off for this one.

[@LelandJ71]

I get the vibe that awkward was shamed for showing emotions growing up.. if thats the case, then its sad

[@lukeaustin4465]

That's more than likely the case.

[@padarousou]

He lives in a country where all men are. It's just his culture nothing wrong with that, we just don't think that way in more developed places

[@aidenless3479]

Awkward is not a psychologist but he has an "expert opinion" on what's a healthy way to manage emotions. I don't know what Awkward thinks is the proper way to deal with negative emotions, exactly, but it seems like he thinks we should repress all our negative emotions. If you talk to a real psychologist they'll tell you that ignoring and repressing emotions is extremely unhealthy, and that allowing yourself to have these emotions is a manageable way is the healthy solution.

[@nuclearsimian3281]

The fact his only answer is to "go to the gym" or "take a walk" or "go for a run" shows he can only express the emotions through physical burnout.

[@geoffking6525]

The longer I listened to him the more I felt he would benefit from therapy. There's definitely some unresolved trauma underlining here.

[@cocob0l0]

I’m in my final year of getting my bachelor’s in Psychology and literally this dude. Repressing won’t get you anywhere. Can’t believe he said that it’s not ok to cry when you lose a parent. I’d be surprised if someone DIDN’T cry to that.

[@AshFrankArt]

I want you to know that I'm not not watching this because I think it's wrong or bad content. It's because I personally feel it's far too obvious that the answer is "of course men should cry".

[@broad_cat]

Truly after listening to the whole thing it was so circular anyways. Awkward kept bringing everything back to absolutes, slippery slope, and 'I choose to ignore' and it just felt in bad faith. There was no attempt to understand but rather "Here's why I don't need to understand" and personally, I would have a hard time being friends with someone so inconsiderate of people at large. It gave off huge Andrew Tate/Alt-Right vibes imo.

[@AshFrankArt]

@@broad_cat I'm not going to slight or attack Awkward as he has a right to his views. But I also have a right to think he's wrong and not want to give him my time. (This comment is to give SVB my time, not Awkward). While in a perfect world we should listen to everyone's opinions and shouldn't shut out those with opinions that differ to our own (so big ups to SVB for doing this) I still believe that Awkward 's views can bring us back from a positive evolution in men's mental health.

[@broad_cat]

@@AshFrankArt Clarifying that last bit: You're saying Awkward's views are regressive and detract overall from men's mental health? Because I agree. And yeah, I do think its important to have tough conversations and seek to understand. But some conversations just aren't productive and this was very much one of them despite SVB's best efforts. Kudos to Awkward for even coming on, but it feels as if there was little attempt to understand by him, only defend and explain.

[@AshFrankArt]

@@broad_cat yeah that's exactly what I'm saying.

[@Azazel-uv3sx]

@@AshFrankArt "Positive evolution in men's health" What positive evolution? Male loneliness and suicide rates are increasing, not decreasing...or maybe those are positive in your POV?

[@Shenrion1]

Akward's entire approach to this argument leans far too heavily on logic for a literal emotional situation and alot of his argument leans on a slippery slope of crying leading to a loss of control.

[@florentwinleaf3462]

This guy is a problem, man The gatekeeping of emotions is a HUGE red flag Yikes bro Also, the entire time, he's downplaying the fact that he believes emotions are a weakness, "because we live in a society." Like who actually cares if a grown man cries People who look down on that are immaturely ignorant He's wrong on every corner SVB handled him properly. What a champ 🏆

[@PlantdaddyTKB]

Anger is an umbrella emotion to another emotion. Bottling up emotion and not feeling them creates the same catastrophie that awkward is so desperate to avoid.

[@therealzahyra]

This is the classic example of the stigma around mental health and the effects it has on a person's perception and the huge impact nurture has on a person. You did amazing SVB! Just some advice for future episodes like this: ask more questions and argue less. The more you ask questions, the more you force the person in front of you to face their thoughts introspectively instead of throwing them at you and therein ending their thought process.

[@briansledzzz3493]

I agree your perception of reality and mental health totally isn’t delusion!!!

[@Maxarcc]

I feel like Awkward is at a point in which he figured out how to be super effective at learning stuff and using principles to get him very far. In this mode, it's good to stay stoic and focussed on goals because it helps you get into a flow state. However, to level up he must now learn when this mindset is beneficial, and when it is harmful. He must learn how to use it as a tool he can pick up during passion projects, and put down when he interacts with people. The reason Awkward doesn't see this yet is because this way of thinking undeniably got him to places. But at some point he will reach a brick wall with his interpersonal relationships. That brick wall will not be pleasant, but many men like him will see it at some point. It is then, and only then, that he will be forced to learn to pick the mindset up, and put the mindset down. And learn when it is time to focus, and when it is time to laugh and cry.

[@garikek]

Oh this one definitely. His way of thinking and approaching things is quite effective when executed well, which he mastered by now. The average person may struggle with his advice for a while until they become good at it. Even the same with overwatch lol. But his mindset is heavily focused on long term success and somehow svb doesn't understand this? Svb talks about how crying at this moment would make you feel better and awkward is saying "well yeah, but couldn't you have done something more productive while letting your emotions out". The whole podcast was concluded at around 40 minutes, the rest is useless rambling back and forth. But it is also true that awkward takes his way of thinking to the extreme and at some point he'll need to adjust it.

[@cassidyinheaven107]

did not need a 3hr long video on why awkwardow needs therapy. i already know plenty of men.

[@Zecuto]

The interesting thing is punching someone in the face is often seen "manly" or "proper" while crying is not. So comparing one to the other is like shooting your foot with that argument.

[@blackpope8834]

This is gibberish

[@blackpope8834]

And doesn't correlate at all

[@YaBoyReiner]

Seeing the need to punch someone as "manly" or "proper" is telling of the person viewing it that way. This is most often the case in people who heavily lack emotional control and don't see physical assault as an issue, but see crying as a sign of weakness. This is simply a destructive way to view the world, so you've shot yourself in the foot w this argument.

[@YazzPott]

Who on earth thinks assaulting people is proper? That is absolutely insane. It literally ends with you in jail, this isnt a societal norm, its something all of society has agreed is abhorrent and illegal. If you are referring to organized fights, thats not even remotely applicable as those aren’t outbursts of emotion, it’s a sport.

[@moniker2804]

​​@@YazzPottall of society doesn't agree that it's insane. It is seen as more manly even if its not widely socially acceptable. A lot of people think punching someone is the only way to keep your "honor" or masculinity in some situations. Violence is seen as strength, while something like crying is seen as weakness.

[@el5pk]

Awkward is in the stage in his life where he has found a way to cope with his negative emotions and has found comfort in it so far. I think with time he will realize that acknowledging and understanding our emotions is an essential part of human nature.

[@Xiatter]

Crying IS controlling your emotions. Refusing to cry is denying you have feelings. People like Akwaard are struggling internally harder than they'll probably ever admit. That's not control, that's gaslighting yourself.

[@ReaveIdono]

What? That is not controlling your emotions. That is the literal release of control. Awkward never said not to feel your emotions. He said channel it into something more productive.

[@Xiatter]

@@ReaveIdono You're allowed to fucking cry dude. Awkward is fucking himself and other men over by telling them healthy emotional release is bad. Sounds like he might have relied on it too much at one point, thus why he rallies so hard against it now. But the amount of men who would rather snap and physically hurt someone because they won't allow themselves to process feelings (and can't understand the difference between healthy emotional release and destructive emotional release) is alarming. And part of why so many men wind up feeling so alone.

[@Xiatter]

@@ReaveIdono You can channel it into as much productivity as you desire, but if you let them foment underneath the distractions they'll blow up eventually whether you like it or not.

[@ReaveIdono]

@Xiatter Again. No one (Including Awkward) is saying you can't cry. Nor is anyone saying to let your negative feelings ferment underneath distractions. He simply is saying that giving into that weak shit as a norm forms an unhealthy habit. Is a akin to "Idle hands is the devil's tool" or whatever that saying is. Basically don't have emotional responses to things. Give yourself time to disect and redirect the emotional energy into a positive situation or solution. Because as SVB said "Not everything has a solution" but sitting there crying over a bad day at work isn't solving the problem. I think people need to understand what it really means to be a man. It's taking responsibility. Not relinquishing control and giving into your initial emotional response.

[@Xiatter]

@@ReaveIdono You're giving Awkward way too much credit when he clearly doesn't even know what the fuck he's trying to say, and keeps making excuses for his dog-shit stupid take. Being a man means not being a sheep who eats up bullshit like that.

[@sirosisodeliver2261]

Only Siths deal in absolutes. It is good to understand and be able to manage your emotions. There are times when it is ok to let go and feel.

[@nuclearsimian3281]

Shaming anyone for expressing an emotion in a healthy way is insanely toxic. The fact that most people say that its unmanly, is why men can't even understand their own emotions so many times.

[@Real_MisterSir]

I think in this regard it ultimately doesn't matter if it's crying or going for a walk or doing something else - at the end of the day they are all coping mechanisms to release the immediate emotional tension that has been built in you. The risk is, that these coping mechanisms may end up becoming crutches to function in society, or in life in general. If you start getting addicted to the crutch, to the point where you begin to neglect finding the actual solution to the problem you're having, then it gets bad. And someone who cries a lot, or someone who has to go take a walk a lot, at the end of the day are displaying behavior of emotional instability. If the frequency of coping is high, and quantity of things you're coping over is high, then you have a legitimate problem with emotional control. Here I think both SVB and Awkward are missing the key aspect by focusing on the coping mechanism itself, rather than the contextual application of it. Another way of putting it, is this: The best businessman is the one who does not rely on coffee to get out of bed and become a functional productive person. It doesn't mean coffee is bad, but it highlights a degree of tolerance to the point where if you suddenly were without your coffee, could you still function at a basic level? Same if you overly rely on crying (or running, or eating cake), what if things suddenly become too much, or that coping mechanism isn't enough, or you don't have access to it due to outside forces out of your control? What then? The reason kids are expected to grow up and cry less, and throw fewer tantrums, is not because crying or throwing a tantrum is inherently inhuman. It's because we know how much more challenging life will become as they grow, and we want them to grow a sense of emotional responsibility and understanding of the bigger picture, so that they more often than not can act with emotional control rather than succumbing to their coping mechanisms over contextually small struggles. And again, everything is with context, and the normality of hardship dictates the potential for growth of emotional stability. Someone who understands hardship and has trust in their own capability to get through it, will be more emotionally stable and less prone to rely on crutches like crying or hitting the gym whenever things don't go their way. It means you are more predictable and reliable as a person, if you display an understanding of your own emotions and through that can handle yourself responsibly and not let those emotions overtake you. Everyone has a cracking point, but we can always strive to push that cracking point as far away as possible.

[@joshuacollins9316]

⁠@@Real_MisterSircrying is not a coping mechanism. It’s a physiological response to an emotion that you are feeling that your body naturally does. It can be controlled to a degree yes, but it is not the same as choosing to punch a wall or exercise. Which both involve actively choosing to do so.

[@Real_MisterSir]

@@joshuacollins9316 "It’s a physiological response to an emotion that you are feeling that your body naturally does." This is literally what a coping mechanism means. I don't know if you associate "coping" with something inherently negative? It's why I made the clear distinction between a coping mechanism, and a crutch. You can be emotional without crying. Crying is just one way for the body to naturally cope with excess emotional distress. Whether it's voluntary or not is not the point I'm making. Also, I would argue you can divert the body's desire to cry, by channeling it through another form of coping, so there is an inherent choice associated. It's more so the fact that if we choose to do nothing, then our body may simply choose for us regardless (by crying).

[@ljb5163]

@@Real_MisterSir You’re talking about crying as if it’s comparable to becoming violent. These things are not even in the same ballpark. The whole framing of this conversation is off. I don’t get why people are making this more complicated than it is. There’s nothing wrong with crying. There is something wrong with violence. The way Awkward was conflating these completely different things was annoying and I had to stop listening to the video because of it.

[@lord_valheru1665]

@Awkward Having 3 people DM you agreeing with is fine; but using this to justify your argument is called confirmation bias. This is the human phenomenon where you will focus on the anecdotal evidence that confirms your opinion, even though that opinion may objectively only ably to the minority.

[@ironman1458]

Dont waste your time trying to explain he didnt even realize the extreme projection in writing emotional tweets about how other people lack emotional control as if the same things he says couldnt be said about tweeting your feelings nobody cares about

[@spencerfrankel414]

Yo let's go. I'm excited for this one SVB. Thank you for standing up for exposing emotion, after going through trauma, crying is a perfectly acceptable emotion. Can't wait for this.

[@sergiogdg]

I hope you consider making more videos like this! It was thought-provoking and very useful. Thank you for being a great host.

[@stephanyjablonofsky9749]

Not gonna lie, this is the most european conversation i have ever heard. He sounds soooo close of with his emotions that is even kinda scary

[@ninthjake]

I really appreciate Awkward's willingness to actually discuss his viewpoints and maybe even the willingness to accept that he may be wrong but what he's saying is the typical warped view of "maculinity". Crying does not lead to agression, it is actually the opposite. Crying is a stress relief and bottling up the feelings eventually lead to people exploding in anger. Crying is not a "negative emotion", it is the expression of an emotion which is sadness and does not have to be negative. Awkward's view of crying simply boils down to "it's not socially acceptable for a man to cry" because that's what has been hammered into people in most cultures for decades.

[@alfred9805]

Can't believe this went on for 3h when it could just have been "sorry that was dumb of me to say"

[@reformed1trick739]

Expressing emotions and acting on emotions are 2 very different things. Many of these violent actions given as examples are all actions taken in anger to hurt someone. I don't think men should feel shame for expressing emotions in a healthy way, but it is unacceptable to use force because you are upset.

[@Stoeltzenjammer]

This is a great video to show how 2 people of differing opinions can in fact come together and have a civil discussion instead of being like everyone else and being passive aggressive on twitter. No matter how you feel about Awkward's opinion, you've gotta admit it was very adult to come on stream with SvB to talk about this.

[@Duckeggmike]

I thought the same thing. This was more fun than the usual overwatch stuff (even tho i listen to every ow episode) and as it gets more views I hope people dont dunk on awkward too much because at least hes taking it serious and being on a platform about it. I think they both made good points that everyone can sort of relate with at the least. Awkwards extreme examples definitely hurt my opinion of his argument. Sounds like he’s just had people in his circle treat him negatively for his emotions so he learned to suppress them and since it’s worked out for him since he didn’t receive negative treatment from others while not harming anyone else except himself, then it seems like the better way to him. Sorry long thought but thats how I viewed it. Was a fun listen @SVB do more of these

[@YazzPott]

Agreed, regardless of any opinions on the matter, this should be the main takeaway. Respectfully discuss things with people you disagree with. It can expand your own nuances, and show you that the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

[@daniilg4356]

We just spent 3 hours listening to 2 people arguing on whether it’s okay to have water come out your eyes

[@PlantdaddyTKB]

I would like awkward to look up Normative Male Alexithymia. His ideology points men to this very common condition of not being able to understand and perceive their emotions.

[@aidenless3479]

There's a thing in rhetoric we call a "slippery slope" fallacy: Awkward assumes that if you give someone the license to express emotion in one instance that they'll do it even when it's not appropriate. That's like saying that if you tell someone it's okay to fire their gun in one situation that they'll fire it will-nilly all the time. It's ridiculous. Most people can tell when it's appropriate to cry, just like most people can tell when it's appropriate to fire off their guns. This is such a non-argument, how do they discuss it for 3 goddamn hours???

[@ikhalid1418]

i agree with awkward. that's why i also don't laugh. cant catch me showing emotions. i would rather control my emotions and use them for something productive like fueling my sigma male grindset. who to say if allow myself to laugh, i wouldn't go hysterical?

[@hambster9759]

*start speaking metamorphosis*

[@Real_MisterSir]

I think an underlying fallacy from Awkward's approach, is the direct assumption that things will lead to addiction / escalation, but with anything in life, there are levels to things where one can stay in a level and not increase the risk of escalation. Like most people enjoy drinking and having some fun in weekends, and for most people they are perfectly capable of staying within their own limitations and not just get blackout wasted each time. Most people do a thing until they reach a point that feels sufficient for their needs, and rarely exceed that space. It's the outliers that twist things. Being fond of something but maintaining the ability to step back if it becomes too much, is normal. Getting addicted to the point where you can no longer step back, is not normal. So I do not agree with the foundation of Awkward's point of view here. On the other hand, I do see merit to the context of some of his points, such as crying being a tie to how out of touch we are with the way our emotions influence our rational self. The analogy of kids who cry over everything is decent, as it highlights how emotional instability can lead to exceptionally low tolerances that will set you back in the future where things only get more challenging. I would not say crying is the culprit, it's just the symptom - but if you start associating crying with a solution to the problem without ever getting to tackle the root cause, then you do set yourself at risk of never solving that root problem and never improving as a person. Say, if you get used to crying as a form of stress relief, and you start using crying as a band-aid to every inconvenience you face that seems even a bit out of the ordinary, then you are setting yourself up for plateauing in life. In this sense, the risk of crying becoming a crutch and default reaction to things that could be solved through different means, is a legitimate risk. It reaffirms that things will be fine if you just get to cry it out - but in reality the only thing that gets better is your immediate emotional state, not the actual thing that caused the emotional state to begin with - and I do agree with his take that a lot of people may easily end up in the situation where they only rely on stress reliefs in life (like crying), rather than fixing what's wrong. Because if they cry and feel better, then they may not be as invested in fixing the root cause that could take time and effort. But overall, that really isn't the main point I myself would want to make. What I would say, is that the correlation between frequency of crying, and what you're crying about, is what actually matters. Sure, if crying helps you take the tip off of immediate emotional pain, then I don't think it matters if that's how you solve it or if you go to the gym or you go play videogames or eat cake. Some things are biologically more healthy for you than others, which is where I think Awkward stands, because he's a very practical man who wants to derive objectively measurable benefit from both good and bad situations. But the key takeaway here is still the frequency of crying, and what you cry about. If you are someone who is very easy to tears, it's not the tears that are bad, but rather the fact that they indicate you are emotionally unstable if so little is necessary to tip you into emotional chaos (chaos as in opposite of control). That is what is also the problem with children, because they cry over everything due to having no experience with handling their emotions or understanding the world around them and the bigger picture. It's emotional inexperience that causes lack of control, and is an indicator of unstable behavior (that can be expressed through tantrums and the like). With adults, you typically would assume that emotional experience gives more rope to pull, longer fuse, better understanding of context and the bigger picture - and here being easy to tears is a display of emotional immaturity and not being able to face the reality you live in. It calls into question what would happen if you are suddenly faced with real hardship, and your only coping mechanism to let those emotions out is crying, what if crying isn't enough? Crying has a natural limit to itself, and while you cry you are emotionally incapacitated. So either you get so emotionally down that you can no longer function as a being, or you lash out in some other uncontrollable manner (like throwing tantrums which is typical of kids when they get pushed over the edge of what their standard coping mechanisms can bear). Someone who instead of crying goes to the gym, can pull harder, run longer, give 110% of themselves. They can push that emotional stress through their body rather than their mind alone, which may better help them stay level headed during and after they have coped - which can potentially offer a better basis for more efficient trouble shooting of the root problem and how to deal with it in the bigger picture - which then ultimately leads to not being as affected next time a similar thing happens. Emotional growth imo is not about stoicism, but it is about knowing your own tolerances and having emotional predictability. Everyone can be pushed far enough that they crack, but we can always strive to make that cracking point as far away from a typical issue as possible, so that we are dependable both for ourselves and others.

[@Munez7]

I'm only 10 minutes in so maybe this gets resolved later on but i'm wondering where this "crying equals not being in control of one's emotion" comes from and then the conlusion: since you can't control your emotion, what will that person do when they're angry. To me it's quite the opposite: crying is not the discontrol of emotion it is a way of relief of that emotion and therefore you gain control of it. And i'm pretty sure i'm not alone with it and i think this is somewhat also what you tried to talk about in your video. By not being able to cry (bc of how society "condemns" crying) one might need another way of relief than crying and that in many cases is a more violent approach. Using the emotion as motivation is just a form of bottling up the emotion itself imo and eventually will backfire in many cases

[@Munez7]

Alright 20 minutes in and you brought it up yourself

[@dudeist_priest]

It sounds like he Awkward read the back cover of a book on Stoicism and decided that he "gets it." He doesn’t.

[@wandofwillow]

Watching this I genuinely felt bad for awkward. I'm really really happy this isn't the view I have of the world and hope he and a lot of men like him can grow to realize how harmful that line of thinking is. Not only to himself but to the ones he says he wants to protect. Stoicism and other ways of thinking men have adopted is a terrifyingly unhealthy answer to a cultural issue.

[@DuffandThings]

I think awkward is misinterpreting crying for whining, SVB is referring to identifying when something is effecting you emotionally and that actually letting out tears can be cathartic

[@yomama2376]

I respect awkward’s educational overwatch content, but he really needs to just stick to the coaching. This is why men have problems with their emotions, other men tell them stupid things like it’s not ok to cry. I get emotional over the weirdest things, but that doesn’t make me any less human. Being human is ALL about emotions.

[@deadhelix]

only 40 minutes in so far and my main issue is that awkward keeps cycling crying back to getting upset, and then making that anger. the two emotions can be in a similar area but them intertwining is much rarer than he makes it out to be. someone being scared about something like lets say their family member is gone and they havent contacted you in awhile and there is nothing you can do (lets say you already call law enforcement to try and see if they can search and nothing comes up) you do not just go to the gym to make yourself feel better. Crying may not change the situation but the point is letting it out until you get to a point where your emotion is drained down, and then at that point you may be in a better space to try and do something productive. there doesnt need to be option A or B because life is not about binary choices. The thing about overwatch matches and choosing to give up completely or try to the very end doesnt even work because at any given moment of trying you can decide its not worth it, so you still did put in the effort but also made the choice that it wont be enough so may as well save the energy. even with the example I gave it wasnt just sadness at play but also fear and for any given reason for someone to feel sad there can be other emotions connected to it. also I feel like even though he clearly understands the difference, keeps comparing bawling your eyes out to causing someone else harm. Some people may go from sad to violent, others will just be sad and not want to move. theres a reason why people get "anger management" and not "emotional management" because anger is the emotion that letting loose will cause problems, the rest can only effect others so much but most importantly, THERE SHOULD BE NO ISSUE WITH SOMEONE TAKING OUT EMOTIONS ALL ALONE WITH NO ONE AROUND. someone smashing something is the same thing as using a punching bag or going to the gym. sure the former may seem more immature but needing to spend money on replacing that one thing would be similar cost to purchasing a tool or gym membership to exert the same emotion (unless they trash their whole room but at that point they clearly werent gonna make good financial choices to begin with). TLDR to what im saying is its not all black and white, but emotions are natural and to say that someone cant cry and has to use that emotion to do something is kinda dumb. even anger can be manages with something like a stress ball, not needing to go on an anime training arc. however if the latter option is helpful to you then that is also good and you should not be discouraged about it, just dont expect it to work for everyone

[@moodstif4530]

👏👏👏

[@shioramenrabbit]

Coming in here cold because I love SVB's content even though I'm really worried this is going to upset me and my whole morning vibe.

[@Zepheon]

Let’s all be honest, we know why men don’t feel comfortable crying. It’s almost always used against them at some point. The same exact people who encourage men to cry are the ones who manipulate those men later and throw it in their face, emasculating them and teaching them not to be vulnerable. Secondly, I personally disagree with men crying anywhere near as often as women. In some select, rare situations, perhaps it’s understandable and won’t have any adverse effects. But oftentimes, when a man cries, that definitely can be a slippery slope as Awkward has stated. Crying often only makes you weaker and more dependent on others if you’re crying around them and being vulnerable, which almost always pushes people away, anyway. Men don’t respect you if you cry often as a man, and neither do women. This is the experience of most men, it’s exactly why they bottle up their emotions. Socially, there aren’t many healthy outlets for men. Men generally should be able to control their emotions, too, for the most part, if they’re mature or at least expected to be. Society expects you to be on your A game at all times, there’s not much tolerance in general. Especially for men. Men are vilified constantly and women are victimized and coddled. Not many people genuinely care about men, generally speaking. They encourage men to embrace femininity. Any typical masculinity is often considered toxic. Stoicism is “toxic.” Being strong in general as a man is “toxic.” Being a weak man is apparently the goal, while being a strong woman is the goal for women. It just doesn’t sit well with me. Furthermore, if people cared about men as much as everyone in this comment section, why is it a societal issue then? Is everyone in this comment section the exception to the rule? Everyone here is supportive of men? I don’t think people practice what they preach. It’s very easy to claim you support men and you won’t lose respect for them if they do cry, but let’s face it, you probably don’t care all that much and you probably would. Whether you realize it or not. If you’re a woman and you see your boyfriend/husband crying, half the time you’re subconsciously thinking about replacing that guy immediately afterwards. It’s just the truth.

[@ironman1458]

Sorry but this just reads as severe projection and trauma bruh, seriously who hurt you lol?

[@ironman1458]

As a man I have to say your own personal experience is quite different from mine and I disagree with pretty much everything you said. And I only say this because your entire comment amounts to equating your own anecdotal experience and your opinion to the reality of what it means to be a man but that just isnt universal, its your opinion and anecdotal experience. Im guessing it also depends a lot on which culture you are from I truly dont understand why you expect your experience to be universal wherever you come from. Is it even one of the same countries as the people in this video, or youre just projecting your opinions as universal fact? But anything thanks for sharing your feelings on the topic I guess, hope you could be a little more collected next time you write an essay arguing with the voices in your mind

[@Zepheon]

@@ironman1458 If you’ve looked into this topic whatsoever you’d know this isn’t just anecdotal evidence. Many men have the same experience and you can ask them yourself. It also isn’t an issue that’s confined to a country, so that’s irrelevant. There’s not much to disagree with if people have different experiences and yours is different. It just means you got lucky enough to have what others don’t. It’s like saying you disagree that people are homeless and starving. Just because you aren’t, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. That’s the most anecdotal evidence you could possibly have.

[@lord_valheru1665]

I feel like this discussion would benefit from adding a time-frame constraint. @awkward is talking about a long term series of repeated behavioural patterns and @SVB is talking about instance based scenarios. In other words: Campaign vs Missions

[@Ovadiazigi]

Wait, Awkward isn't the guy who said that complaining about smurfs is a sign of weakness and we all should use the opportunity to learn from the situation instead? I see no difference then and now with his way of thinking.

[@josephreynolds2401]

I kinda agree with the smurf stance, tho not the exact messaging.

[@Ovadiazigi]

@@josephreynolds2401 bro, this guy wear his ignorance like a badge of honor, that's why he's a grown man with a childlike "black and white" way of thinking, as we mature we gotta be open and adjust, he's clearly isn't there yet. I do think he's a good guy though, He means well and that's nice. I think more questions regarding his parents and upbringing would definitely shed a light on this whole situation.

[@RavageDionne]

Awkward is a waking example of the slippery slope fallacy in action. I love Awkward as a player and seems to be a generally cool guy, but this world view seems to be extremely rigid and almost entirely anecdotal to him.

[@bedeviere]

do NOT let the patriarchy into overwatch.

[@scarecr0w630]

"Don't cry cause it will lead to bad things" So I shouldn't drive a car cause I might hit your grandma? Lol who tf is this guy??

[@scarecr0w630]

Apples to tires lol

[@mrsilencer5542]

Acting out of strong emotions (different from continuing in spite). It makes you reckless and makes you a child. Awkward wants to gain control over his emotions he doesn't even know what that looks like and doesn't understand you need to feel those emotions to their full extent and not let them control your actions instead of just going gym that is control. Feel them to find the root course. Sometimes there are no solutions but finding a reason why is the is a solution in itself. Different from unregulated emotions that is reckless. You also need to have control over your emotions to give people a safe space to express their opinions and these two have that. They are understanding and caring. Arguing in a firm but loving manner

[@AutXRose]

Awkward is often so misunderstood and it's so sad. I used to think that my crying a lot was a healthy release (I'll cry anywhere anytime if I need to cry, no shame), but he is right. I DO lack emotional control, and it is not just sadness. My anger issues are WILD, it's hard to hide my excitement about things, etc. etc. I've come a long way, but as someone who struggles with this, I 100% agree with Awk's point. (but i am also not a man, this is more complex for you guys :/ )

[@Smitten02]

Honestly sounds like Awkward is afraid of emotional dysregulation which is more common than people realise, i struggle with it myself and regulating emotions is very difficult for me. It's very do-able though it simply takes practice and more time than people who don't struggle with it. I see his points for sure and taking a walk or going to the gym is a fantastic way to remove yourself from the situation however I think a combination of working out and solving the root of the problem would work even better otherwise it becomes avoidance. (sorry for the essay)

[@ironman1458]

I think you actually explained his perspective better than he did

[@redyoshi6554]

The biggest disconnect Im seeing so far right of the rip is feeling vs action. Sadness, happiness, joy, humor, those are feelings. Crying, punching walls, laughing, those are actions that relieve or are a response to the feelings. Awkward is saying he doesn't believe that crying is healthy because he turns his sadness into a productive activity such as working out. While SVB is saying that sometimes the act of releasing the emotion in of itself is healthy. Calling crying or laughing an emotion is what I think is causes the massive disconnect in the conversation

[@Bazilisk_AU]

Am I the crazy one here ? I feel like awkward is speaking the truth. His attitude is a coping mechanism for when life is difficult. Also, I feel like there is a cultural divide that is difficult to traverse. Awkward is giving a very standard Eastern European kind of stoicism. Despite living in Israel. Actually… I can understand how Awkward was able to come to the conclusion that he did. He lives in a country where war is right at his doorstep. SVB has a very western perspective that makes it difficult to comprehend where awkward is coming from. Also SVB has a very theoretical understanding which, in theory and in an armchair is sound and logical. But his breadth of knowledge and understanding is vast and has a deep well to draw from. With theory though, a plan never survives contact with the enemy. The examples that Awkward have used are unfortunately things that I’ve seen play out in reality. I would rather a world where SVB’s ideals are true. It would have made my life easier at the very least. Also, Awkward is trying to express that having a physical outlet for emotion is a form of meditation. I don’t agree with him that every outlet of negative emotion must be redirected into a physical activity or a form of self improvement. I do agree that if you cannot control your emotions in small matters or minor inconveniences and you haven’t developed a tolerance and resistance to overwhelming negative emotions, then you won’t be able to perform in higher stress situations and you break down and become a slave to your emotions. I think SVB’s video on why men should cry was excellent and I was able to agree with everything… on the other hand, Awkward represents a way of thinking that reflects a previous generation and culture where that expression of stoicism was the optimal way to go about life. Chat is extremely western-centric and everyone seems to be labelling all the stoic things as “intel behaviour”

[@broad_cat]

I think a chief contention was that: Yes, not being able to regulate emotions is harmful. Learning to navigate those emotions is part of being well-adjusted. However, that doesn't mean not showing emotion as if its a slippery slope to negative behaviors. Part of healthy emotional regulation is expressing those emotions where its appropriate to do so and knowing when to hold back. Often being comfortable sitting with ill-feelings is something people struggle with and thus shun all those feelings in harmful ways. Very good points about western expression vs eastern stoicism though. I agree there's definitely a strong cultural divide there.

[@joshuacollins9316]

Cultural divides do come into play, but healthy mental health techniques are applicable no matter where you are located, because we are all human. And just because in different parts of the world it is traditional or culturally accepted for men “not to cry” as much, does not mean that that is the most healthy, or even a healthy approach to have.

[@JackZ72]

Men don’t need to be stoic to be a man - it’s just unnecessary and silly

[@ooshdesigns]

Awkward is proof that being good at OW doesn’t make you smart.

[@p0ison1vy]

I'm sorry, but this kid's opinion did NOT need to be humoured for 3 entire hours, jesus. Before people pretend that they're uber logical, they should really check the latest research first to ensure their argument has a scientific basis; There's plenty of literature demonstrating that crying IS healthy, crying by itself has no link to general emotional disregulation, often it's the opposite. He makes a false equivalence with general crying &out-of-control-crying, two different things; it's all clearly motivated reasoning from edgelord philosophy, that emotions = bad. It's not wrong to be angry just like it's not wrong to cry. And It's not even wrong to cry uncontrollably, my god, how would you feel if your close friends and family to responded to your death by surpressing their grief and hitting the gym? lol. There's plenty of research (eg. the Wason Selection task) demonstrating the people are generally really bad at pure logical thinking (even scientists, mathemeticians, and others with high IQs). And while it's true that emotions and stress can make it difficult to think logically, crying has been shown to reduce stress, that's partially why we evolved to do it. Trying to be more logical is of course good, but this condescension is not. His entire argument is motivated by his emotions; men crying makes HIM feel uncomfortable, therefore it's bad.

[@hartyewh1]

This is so bad it's scary. Emotional pain and suffering often comes from the world no longer being what your internal landscape is shaped for. Someone died, a relationshio ended etc. Feeling the suffering and facing it head on is you rebuilding your internal landscape. It hurts like hard workout because development requires it. Going to the gym instead of crying is running away from the problem out of weakness. If the crying lasts months without any change it's depression or you're not going deep enough into what's wrong. Crying is healing. There's an X amount of tears to drop before the work is done and one can drip them in a day, a week, a month or never.

[@nashovoscallando1098]

Reading these comments you can really tell whos red pilled and blue pilled in here

[@Thehatter106]

Came into this conversation agreeing more with SVB, left it agreeing more with Awkward

[@Solarjolt]

I'm amazed that this is a discussion that adults need to have. There are levels and nuances to this argument in almost every context. Everything in moderation. Too much crying is unstable. Never crying is inhuman or even sociopathic. I look up to my father as my rock and foundation. He's often very calculated and stable and rarely cries at all. Whenever he does cry, it's always justified and due to great grief. If I ever see my dad crying, I begin to crumble and have a hard time holding my emotions as well, because of the great esteem I hold my father in. It's because of that empathy that I can share in his grief. I aspire to be like my dad; to be the rock that other people can lean on, and once the show's over and the lights go dim, I'll cry and weep on my own, sonI don't bring others down if I can help it.

[@TheArchivesRPG]

When a guy collapse on the street my first response "my action" is to go for a run or go to the gym.

[@BridgyP]

I know SVB you may not see this, but to expand understanding: Awkward has a poor understanding of emotions, but he has basically accidentally trained himself in sublimation (look this term up), which is a mature emotional defence mechanism and is a way to work through emotions. Again, he's got a point regarding needing to regulate his emotions- but he's conflating feeling emotions with losing control, which is really not correct. However, emotional dysregulation is a huge problem and a core symptoms of severe personality disorders. Interesting discussion and love that you're promoting men's mental health

[@Adamm1726]

To add on to what you said. Sublimation has to do with working past unhealthy and harmful urges, like sexual or destructive urges; which is not the same as feeling emotions. This, I believe, is where Awkward has gone wrong and his preaching and own behaviors stemming from this line of thinking become unhealthy. Sublimation is a mature defense mechanism, Suppression is not.

[@kayanono]

Yall need to check his other Tweets. Sounds like if Tate lite picked up overwatch and had some hair lmao

[@Bazilisk_AU]

Not gonna lie, I hate that Tate has become the face of stoicism. Stoicism especially Eastern European stoicism has always been this way and has been the way to cope with the difficulties of life long before that beta-male Tate came and self proclaimed himself as the so-called ‘embodiment of stoicism’.

[@kayanono]

@@Bazilisk_AU Problem with that is, most ppl just say "emotion = bad" and call that shit stoicism. They lock themselves away thinking they are so cool doing it. Until one day everything they tried to lock up boils over. Stoicism is not denying ur emotion, its not really caring about stuff u cant control, or trying to do that cause we aint robots.

[@elbows2096]

Awkward is what happens when a dumb person is convinced they are a smart person because they are good at a video game.

[@ofrenic]

To call him dumb is quite the reach. Just because his opinions differ to yours, doesn't make him stupid. Again, its a lack of emotional control. You just couldnt stop yourself from typing that you think he's stupid.

[@AutXRose]

Extreme examples are NECESSARY because that's where uncontrolled emotions could eventually lead. Just like with everything, with emotional intelligence we have to start small. If you cannot stop crying because someone said something rude, how are you going to control yourself when something truly awful happens? Controlling our crying and basic emotions is like practice/ training for (personal ex.) when you really want to drive into oncomming traffic and there's nothing stopping you but yourself.

[@hawkeye71980]

I have a family member with bad anxiety and she literally cries if the waiter asks her a second time what she ordered. Yet she never would hurt a fly or ever gets angry. So I disagree that allowing one extreme emotion will cause other extreme emotions…

[@bberns8252]

Your family member needs therapy bro

[@hawkeye71980]

@@bberns8252 yes they do, that is why they go to one regularly and on some meds for it.

[@dmbyaz41]

A balance of emotion is good but keeping them all at 0 isn't balance. That's robotic... I worry for my son and his generation. Thank you for this discussion svb.

[@Chipster512]

Streamers who play games for a living giving mental health advice. OW really lacks content S6 LMAO

[@Philinnor]

Awkward chose his name well.

[@Olga-kr3mq]

Very interesting topic. Good perspectives from both sides. I like the advise that i heard somewhere "you can let yourself cry, scream, feel bad for yourself and do whatever else you need but you have to set a time for it." It is easy to get lost in self-pity and fall into victim mentality by only crying all the time. Gym, running, doing something proactive can sometimes be perceived as avoiding feeling your feelings but it puts you in an active role in your life and takes you out of a victim mindset. I guess Awkward's point in his life and his coaching is that you gotta take personal responsibility for what you have or don't have in your life. And from this perspective when someone is crying they are being in a passive position. You also have to consider the fact that not everyone can cry and they "work through" their emotions differently. Doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with crying. But if crying is the only thing you do you may need to reconsider your choices.

[@callumtorrance9180]

"Only the sith deal in absolutes!" - SVB

[@ShelloSongz]

WHY ARE THERE ALWAYS ONLY TWO OPTIONS WITH THIS GUY?! 😭 THIS IS SOME BLIND SHIT MAN I CANT LOL

[@ShutUpMoron]

I watched this live, so I'm gonna use the comment section to let my voice be heard. SVB, I love your content, I love awkward's educational content, but I don't think this is the best way to go about this situation. Dude had a Tate take, you don't need to platform it. Talk to him privately. I don't think he's a bad person at all, but making content out of it and posting it on your OW youtube channel is not the best look and it can potentially make awkward look even worse if twitter takes some clips from this; especially when no ground has been made after almost 3 hours of talking in circles. I cry at anything and am the perfect human with full emotional control. Think about it. Good luck on the soak, I wish awkward nothing but the best as he grows.

[@purplewine7362]

I think it's good to make allow people to learn from their mistakes, actually. Posting it allows others with the mentality of Akwards to reflect upon themselves. "I don't think it's a good idea to platform Awkward" lol bozo. You're talking as if SVB had an alt righter on his channel. Sit the fuck down lmfao

[@broad_cat]

Hadn't thought of this until reading your comment, but I agree. In the end this whole convo was pretty unproductive and basically just affirmed what most people probably thought at surface level: Awkward has some very typical toxic masculinity, is always on the grindset, and doesn't really give a shit what literally anyone who criticizes him says. No matter how valid their points, how many of them there are, or who they might be.

[@israelnegron8324]

Awkward is sounding very much like an incel in this conversation lol

[@padarousou]

SVB is talking about catharsis and Awkward is talking about sublimation. Both are valid ways of managing emotions

[@mabbaa]

I'm at 1hr or so of the video and im really curious how is this longer lol. Not complaining tho, love it.

[@TiddyMcGee]

If you gotta cry, cry. It's literally an emotional response. We all have different levels of pain tolerances. I feel just respect yourself and others is the biggest take away from this. I think awkward got to deep into the red pill manosphere.

[@Shmop_]

I don’t know awkward, but understand where awkward is coming from as someone that was part of gang violence at a young age on top of growing up in a military household, there were zero emotional support to help me at a young age, basically trauma growing up, I thought showing emotion was bad, doesn’t make me a man, but my advice to quickly summarize it that transformed me which is still helping me and to see the best in others no matter who/what they are is to honestly having a personal relationship with god, denying yourself daily, and believing in the gospel, my life transformed, truly, coming from a atheist (which I also realized it takes the same amount of faith to believe there is no god) that was chasing a up and down lifestyle, the next high anywhere I can find it, finding things that made me happy, having this black void in my heart that I talked to others about, a feeling we can never shake off to filling that void in my heart through god, it’s truly amazing, sorry I got religious SVB in your Overwatch channel, but I hope I touched someone through this tiny testimony summery

[@joshuacollins9316]

This shows a huge lack of understanding of healthy mental health practices.

[@Michael-pn4xu]

Something to keep in mind English is not his first language and cultural differences (think he is from Israel). So some communication may be lost in translation/cultural exchange.

[@luckeykey7804]

Awkward for sure has reacted to negatively in an Overwatch game because of his emotions.

[@avatarnang5803]

Yes. Yes it is. Turns out nuance and case-by-case basis is important, as is with everything in life.

[@rezq9109]

Awkward is in his "im a manly man red pill gym bro" phase. Let a child play with it for a while.

[@shyco321utube]

What a disaster of a human, yeesh

[@Zecuto]

10:59 it is possibly a bad thing the father could not cry properly. Watching healthy gamer video with Gigguk, this is how suppression of feelings is. Just when you think you might start crying, the brain tunes it down due to conditioning. You are not controlling your feelings this way, you are numbing yourself to them and getting an illusion of control. It's like saying "if you sell your car, you won't hit pedestrians with it". By bottling your feelings down yes, you can control some outbursts, but you also can lose control over expressing these emotions in situations where you could express them fully, and i can't see that as a positive.

[@broad_cat]

wrote this in another comment, but I would love to see Awkward on Dr. K. I think it'd really go in an interesting direction to hear how they would challenge some of these assumptions. But yeah, that Gigguk episode was great. What a great meeting of the monks.

[@theredguy92]

It just sounds like awkward doesn’t know the difference between crying and depression..

[@brinks2469]

i cry everytime i play ow lmao

[@hartyewh1]

Around halfway Awkward makes it clear how undevelop his understanding is. I'd guess the average 14 year old boy would say the same. Nothing bad about it, but just shows how lost young men often are. And then it turns to bottom shelf red pill bs. This is exactly what kills young men unless it happens to distract them long enough. Awkward dances around so many points, avoids any and all even potential responsibility. It's weak and unimpressive.

[@strawberrydialectics]

yeah its very redpill-y. especially when he goes into "its so much easier for women to find a guy than the reverse" without considering reasons as to why that could be. "oh no its hard to get a girlfriend" vs. "can i trust this guy im talking to not to assult me" "can i trust this guy behind me on the sidewalk not to be following me"

[@ponderdiggums4589]

​@@strawberrydialecticsThat part was really cringe

[@Naerkin]

Ironic that the guy named “Awkward” is the one with an unhealthy understanding of emotion and toxic masculinity.

[@cocob0l0]

@@strawberrydialecticsCould I get the time stamp for that please? That’s really embarrassing for him

[@cocob0l0]

@@ponderdiggums4589^

[@Slowdive52]

Awkward be like: Crying bad for you. source? trust me bro I help you climb in video games.

[@NolansGoons]

The whole idea Awkward presented of expressing your extreme emotions being a slippery slope to expressing them in destructive ways was so utterly unsupported by anything he said to try to back it up (which, honestly, was not much), it just makes it clear he made the whole initial tweet off of a shower thought and decided to double and triple down on it regardless of how hollow it and its intentions ultimately were, clout just seemed to be his only goal. I literally had no idea who Awkward was until watching this debate, and honestly still know basically nothing, but he just seems like a bad faith actor that SVB is giving too much slack off of a sense of comradery. Late in the debate the titular topic was long gone and it was mostly just SVB trying to explain to Awkward why his tweets are so inflammatory and how he could maybe *not* do that, and he just seemed to deflect anything and everything exactly how you'd expect from someone who *wants* to be inflammatory and who *likes* deflecting for sport

[@_Libosido]

Awkward's perspective view on the emotions feels inhuman. He did not said it directly but his point of view is everything above apathy _(like after lobotomy in the past) is bad and sign of losing self control and its weakness. He is also mixing two different things "emotions" and "self-control". *Emotions* are honest, natural and healthy expression/reaction on feeling about something, you make opinions based on emotions, you make memorable memories based on how bad/good feelings you had about things. You cant change your emotional reactions because they are based on your emotional bond with a thing or person. For example: If your mom would die and you loved her, you will cry. *Self-control* is about recognizing, what is right/wrong, rational in specific situation, its physical response on acts of any kind, its your final decision. For example: Same case with mom but now for her death is some one responsible. You cant change fact, you will cry, but you can change response based on your self-control. You can be only sad, shout on the murder or shot him into head. You can be high emotional but also to have high self-control = not weak. Awkward have really "outdated" picture of the "right man" = be emotionless = be strong, dont care about your inner feeling, just do what must be done - dont cry, its childish! He is really young and out of touch from the real world. Esspecially crying (but overall any expression of your emotions) is relief for your body, you are flooded with hormons, its kind of reset or "steam release" for you mental state. If you are holding the steam, you ends up with cure in form of alcohol, drugs, pills by time leads to health and mental issues, and leads sometimes to the the "worst cases". I'm hoping, the Awkward grows up by time from his opinions, after he see a lot of people destroyed by alcohol, pills, depression, ptsd, drugs etc. Every person have the breaking point - for your good, dont try to reach it pls.