Is Jon any better than Robb? *Game of Thrones*

This is a discussion video to give my on a subject. My first subject is about the similarity between Jon and Robb.
Voice Over by Gordon Reeves- [e-mail]
Is Jon any better then Robb?

[@rutger5000]

John and Robb stories are actually more opposite then anything else. John sacrifices honour for duty, whereas Robb sacrifices duty for honour. When he became King it was Robb duty to lead his people through the war as well as possible. But honour made him execute Lord KarlStark and honour made him marry the girl he deflowered. Failing in his duties on both accounts. When John went beyond the wall it became his duty to protect the realm from the threats that lie beyond it. Duty made him John the wildlings, duty made him break his vows with Ygritte, duty made him let the Wildlings pass. All of those dishonoured him in the eyes of the realm, but it was what needed to be done.

[@Syndor12]

Guess it goes to show that Robb was a lot more like his father, Ned. And Jon is more like Rhaegar, who dishonoured himself by taking Lyanna while married to another, to do his duty (if he did in fact believe in the prophesy)

[@rase5994]

I have some consensus with the basic of your statement, but I do disagree in many parts. Unlike Taimoor, I would claim Jon is the one more similar to Eddard. Two men of honor, who avoid passion, and their mutual weakness is mercy. Yes I know, Jon falling to Ygritte contradicts "avoids passion", but he was young, inhibited towards her for very long time, and lets face it: what kind of man wouldn't cave in eventually with a girl like that teasing? +In the end, he chose Night's Watch over love. Jon died indeed because of his duty: he did what was both noble and morally right, but it backfired cause he expected everyone to be as honorable. Very much like Ned. And I'm not saying that Robb isn't a man of honor too, but he did his first big mistake and married someone else because he gave up on his feelings. And breaking your vow isn't honorable. Killing Lord Karstark was a bit of both. He did consider that even highborns should pay for their crimes, but I bet it was partly because he wanted to prove his power, after Lord Karstark boasted that Robb wouldn't dare to do more than rebuke him. And he died because those 2 choices led him into desperate situation, where he had to take the risk of trusting a person who had all the good reasons to hate him.

[@rutger5000]

rase5994 I'm not sure. I think John is capable of sacrificing honour for the Watch. Yes letting the wildlings pass through the wall was the right and noble thing to do. But I don't think that's why he did it. In the end I think he did it because he didn't feel he couldn't afford to let + 100 K men, woman and children be turned into the others, nor could he pass up on the opportunity to recruit them. The Watch needed an army, and it seemed very clear that no Lord was going to give it to them.

[@rase5994]

rutger5000 I think once again, both: he needed an army, but he also didn't want innocent lives to go to waste. In S05E05 he says to Tormund: "For 8 000 years Night's Watch has sworn an oath to be the shield that guards the realms of men. And for 8 000 years we've fallen short to that oath. You belong to the realms of men". The way I see it, Jon does hardly anything that isn't honorable one way or another. Mercy is also one form of honor. But that wasn't my point. I just meant that I consider Jon having more similar traits to Eddard than Robb has. Just like Ned warned Cercei about his plans so her children could live, Jon did was both right and smart thing to do, even though he knew his opinion wouldn't be popular.

[@Syndor12]

rase5994 Well I was actually talking about the books. Robb is a lot more like Ned in the books, I don't know why they changed his character in the show. He didn't fall in love like Jon, on the contrary, he married Jeyne (Talisa) because he felt he was honour-bound to after he took her virginity. He was stuck between keeping an oath to the Frey's and dishonouring a girl, or marrying the girl and dishonouring himself. He chose the latter. Because he felt it was the right thing to do. Killing Lord Karstark was nothing to do with pride, ego or proving himself. Killing Karstark was probably one of the hardest decisions he made, but he did it because he wanted to be a just king, who wouldn't spare criminals just because of their nobility. Jon on the other hand was angry and a lot more passionate when he killed Janos. He had hated him from the beginning, and even after he started begging for his forgiveness, Jon went through with it. Jon shows a lot more emotions than Ned or Robb, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, because after all he did grow up as a bastard so he's going to have some fire in him that the other two never did.

[@LooneyTonn]

In the books Robb speaks highly of him, even named him the heir to Winterfell in case if he fell. And you know how that went!

[@WatchersPod]

+Tonn Donaldo I think it goes both ways

[@Al4___]

Jon actually said Robb is better than him at everything when he first met Sam

[@SherlockHolmesb-kp4ru]

​@@Al4___In the show , he did

[@mrglowinthedark498]

​@@Al4___ in the books John said Robb was a better rider and Lance than him but he was better with a sword

[@schemeteam2954]

​@@mrglowinthedark498Yup and Robb was a better strategist seeing how he won every war he fought in the war of 5 kings. But in 1 vs 1 sword fighting, Jon is a better swordsman and he got even better training and fighting in castle black. Ned probably spent a lot of time training him too when they were young since Caitlyn hates him so much.

[@Zacurafire]

The problem with your second comparison is Janos didn't have any men, and he wasn't leading them to support Jon. Killing him for challenging his authority is undeniably the right move.

[@lourenskaufmann7639]

You guys are thinking too literal.

[@Zacurafire]

It just doesn't make sense to make the comparison at all imo.

[@EricMustardman]

Jon didn't just execute Janos for challenging his authority. He executed Janos because the latter had proven himself an untrustworthy coward, and there was no room in the Night's Watch for such people as their lack of morale and fighting spirit might have spread among the men, which would have led to their doom. Jon had to make an example of Janos, he simply had no choice or he would have failed his duty to and responsibility for his men.

[@Doublebarreledsimian]

You're mostly right and Jon may have thought Janos to be what you've discribed. However I think Janos' disobeying direct orders and challenging his command by being openly insubordinate was the tip of the iceberg that sealed his fate and gave Jon the justification to lob his head off. Even Sir Allister agreed with the decision.

[@unc54]

Janos also was a coward. You can't have a coward when you face the Night King

[@nicolecoleman8027]

The difference between Jon & Robb is Jon chose Duty over love, Robb did not.

[@WatchersPod]

I agree, I might do a video addressing this because it is true and was not stated in the video.

[@jonstark7282]

Jon chose love over duty in the Battle of the Bastards...

[@GoldenRose116]

not to mention selling the north to Dany

[@angelwater8987]

both are shitheads

[@cristofervidre8378]

He leaves ygrette rob doesnt leave the girl

[@nicolasboissiere]

They both have some cool ass hair styles.

[@mrwho3425]

Who gives a fuck about their...this is fantasy medieval England

[@mrwho3425]

Hair

[@IvorineDJ]

Lmao no it isn't.

[@steelbear2063]

Ass hair lol

[@nicolasboissiere]

Олег Егоров Omg I didn't see that HAHAHAHAHA

[@Captainshowtime]

Jon didn't break any vows, they said they should father no child but it doesn't say anything about having sex.

[@colorcommentary5761]

I'm not so sure about not being able to have sex in theory. I haven't read the books, but Sam and Jon discuss it on the show. He only vowed to father no children, which he did not. Therefore, a case can be made that having sex was not a breach of his vow. Depending on how you interpret the responsibilities of the Watch, interacting with the wildlings could maybe be seen as a violation and common sense would also dictate that sleeping with the enemy isn't smart. But those are two completely different discussions.

[@Captainshowtime]

and sam even said it says nothing about having sex

[@Captainshowtime]

ok lol

[@colorcommentary5761]

But the evidence is not clear. You seem to be confusing the interpretation of the vows with what they actually say. It is clear that the vows are interpreted to forbid sex. That is clear. However, the vows don't explicitly forbid it. They forbid fathering children, which everyone went and interpret as "no sex". But the two don't have to be the same, hence why one could argue that Jon did not break his vows when he had sex: he didn't father a child.

[@colorcommentary5761]

I don't claim to know more than either of them, and never have. All I am saying is that the vows are being interpreted as prohibiting sex, but that it is not what they literally say. That they are being interpreted as such is just that: an interpretation. And therefore, it could be argue that Jon did not break his vows by having sex as long as he did not father children.

[@XDspacemanJD]

Jon executed Janos Slynt to show power and to send a message. Half of the Nights Watch didn't want Jon to be Lord Commander. They thought he was too inexperienced and a traitor for "sleeping with the enemy". Jon needed to send a message saying "I am the Lord Commander. Disobey me and you will die." From this no one would challenge his authority again.

[@mrbibs350]

Until they murdered him.

[@TheLastSane1]

But that was after a very large rule break. What makes ZERO sense is that they know the Whitewalkers are real, they have had Wights inside the wall (back when Joer was Commander) so why do they still believe that the wall was built to keep Wildlings out? Hell we know Wildlings could get over the wall if they reallyw ant to. Castle Black is not the only way through the wall. Shit they could built boats and sail south.

[@mrbibs350]

TheCinemaJudge That's one of my problems with the show. In the books they stab him because he wants to go south and fight the Boltons. They stab him because that's clearly against their mantra of neutrality.

[@XDspacemanJD]

mrbibs350 That was after Jon let the wildlings through the wall, an act that they thought was totally against the nights watch's purpose. Jon killed Janos Slynt because it's what any other confident and strong lord commander would've done. That execution showed how Jon wanted to enforce their rules. Janos broke the rules so he had to die in the nights watch's eyes. Jon knew what rescuing the wildlings meant. He knew he would be hated even more for it but he did it anyway for the greater good. He chose the greater good over trying trying to appease the nights watch. They killed him for this because they were short sighted and couldn't see his point of view.

[@mrbibs350]

***** That's my problem. It makes sense to let the wildlings in. In the books the NW didn't like doing it, but they understood the necessity because they knew what they were facing. The book's plot made more sense than the show.

[@ChrisUAnimation]

Jon beheading Janos Slynt was not the same as Robb killing karstark. Yes they both passed a sentence to execute men who betrayed their command, but Janos slynt was just one man and not a leader of entire house that commanded a force of thousands. Plus, Jon was not killing the man for honor but rather following the lead of Stannis who advised him to get rid of the man. I am sure if Jon was in Robb's position, he would've heeded the advice of his friends and spared karstark life.

[@Dark_Voice]

Also because of that Karstarks were with show!Ramsay and actually made the Battle of Bastards closer. If he didnt do what he did and Karstarks were loyal still Jon wouldnt need LFs men maybe.

[@account4345]

Christopher Jon wasn’t pushed along by Stannis from my memory. He killed him to establish dominance, then Stannis gave him the nod of approval, or maybe just before he killed him, either way the execution was set. Jon is a man of morales, he doesn’t bend easy, only ever did bend once, out of love and his duty to the north.

[@Argos-xb8ek]

Janos was still influential at the wall. He was able to become a powerful figure. He also allied with Alister Thorne and was known to have "Friends at Court" Lannister court

[@tahirqazi6656]

Jon did kept his duty above love. Both Times. He left his first love for nights watch. Then killed second love to save the realm. So he was far better than Rob for realm and his people. And True king of the seven kingdom.

[@rutger5000]

No that's exactly what we are telling you. John broke his oath in service of the Nights watch. Yes he fell in love with Yggrette (I think only after they've shared a bed together), but that's not what drove him. And executing Janos Slynt wasn't a mistake, John could not allow his authority to be challenged like that. And everyone (including Janos) agreed, he did this in front of everyone, there was ample opportunity to speak up. There are perhaps similarities between the characters, but the examples you provide only highlight the differences between them.

[@Moman893]

I think Jon executing Janos was a bit of a tip of the hat to the scene in episode 1 where Ned executes the nightswatch deserter; the significance of which is showing Ned's values expressed in his 'kids' - he who passes the sentence must swing the sword (or something like that).

[@yousefhassan42]

You could argue that Jon broke his vows with Ygritte out of necessity, so then his image as a turncloak can be more believable. Whereas, Robb broke his vows because of desire

[@ocadioan]

In the books, Robb broke his oath due to his obligation to do the honourable thing after accidentally sleeping wtih Jeyne Westerling when she nursed his wounds after he was just told about theon's "execution" of Bran and Rickon. Why the TV show decided to change that for the cliche love story we got, I will never know.

[@rutger5000]

ocadioan I think it might have fleshed out his character more. In a way GRR was a bit lazy with it all happening off screen.

[@ocadioan]

rutger5000 While it is true that I would have loved to see the book events, the adaptation still changed the motivation from "fuck, I made a mistake and honour compels me to own up to it" to "she looks quite fine. The Freys probably won't be that mad"

[@Raytrek79]

Jon isn't a military leader like Robb, Jon's major strength is diplomacy, bringing forces together not leading them.

[@fouadothamni9050]

in the books he is both

[@praveenloganathan7495]

@@fouadothamni9050 that's because he is far closer to Stannis and he is still alive and kicking. I have a feeling that once resurrected, he would join Stannis' campaign, proclaiming him the true King of Westeros. Because Jon is like an apprentice to Stannis in military tactics, warfare, politics, and leadership, their future relationship would be like that of a father and son. Stannis would be his strict father, Melissandre would be his fanatic and crazy Stepma, probably sharing the role with Sylese, Davos is the new cool uncle and Shireen the sick and naive little sister. All in all, Jon has people for him to be his family whereas Robb never did. And it is exactly why Jon will be better.

[@sultanazamatov2895]

Robb had Bolton and Blackfish as his advisers in the battles

[@kaustubhlunawat7827]

@@sultanazamatov2895 He had none in the first battle. The move with the spy showed his intelligence. Jon even would have lost Battle of Bastards

[@TheUnseenPath]

Not really Jon is a hell of a leader that's what made him Lord Commander and King in the North.

[@pete2389]

the difference is Jon had a get out of death free card... and he's the prince that was promised

[@barch118]

Jon is just robb with plot armor

[@user-db7om5wu5j]

+Mustard Chief and the truth has been spoken!

[@obscuremedia]

Very true. Robb didn't get the whole "Messianic treatment" that Jon has gotten.

[@andrewclark8638]

Nope, Jaime is the prince that was promised. You think GRRM would make it that obvious that he'd make Jon Azor Ahai? Maybe in the show, but that doesn't count.

[@pete2389]

Andrew Clark bruh... Jamie is NOT azor ahai. Show will probably end different (personally I refuse to believe "bolt-on" theory isn't true) but George rr said at the beginning he wanted to make a generational story about 5 kids growing up- Jon, Sansa, Bran, Tyrion, and Danaerys. Alot's changed, but at the core that's still what this story is. Who azor ahai is (if there is one) is debatable, but I don't see it being a minor character. Alot of build up for Jon so it's no more obvious than the fact that Danny will make it to westeros and dragons will fight wights. Coulda told you that after the first book, but it'll still be exciting to see it happen. Jamie will kill Cersie, that's where his character is heading. After that, it's not that important imo.

[@CaroleS2512]

Janos, not Jason Slynt!

[@WatchersPod]

I know!

[@CaroleS2512]

Well, you said Jason twice :)

[@WatchersPod]

Carole Scott Thats what you think!

[@WatchersPod]

JK, I have someone doing the voice over for me and he prob read the script wrong.

[@Vasily34]

Also its CATelyn not KATElyn

[@magnvsmarcvs]

Jason Slynt ?

[@manickelmcgillicuddy]

Exactly this, lost all credibility.

[@GlutenEruption]

+manickelmcgillicuddy and the fact that he only realized he was city watch on second viewing?? That was a huge plot point with Tyrion sending him to the nights watch and replacing him with Bronn.

[@haylnobody26]

don't forget caitlin tully

[@iMadrid11]

magnvsmarcvs Janos do sound like an Westeros version of the name Jason.

[@redlightgaming6444]

magnvsmarcvs yea I have a feeling this guy was just talking out his ass. Doesn't really know the plot of name of the characters

[@jackholander8947]

It's very interesting to me that in the same episode as the Red Wedding, where Robb dies largely because he broke his vows for love/honor, Jon lives because he remembered his duty to the NW and abandoned Ygritte. He did what Ned would have done.

[@WatchersPod]

+Jack Holander very interesting point. You might be on to something

[@Balinux]

Jon broke his vow for duty, don't compare. Killing Janos wasn't a mistake, it earned him his men's respect. If anything these events show how different the two men are.

[@WatchersPod]

No he did not, I just reread the chapter he slept with her. He did it because he wanted to. There is even a line where he says something like "I'll do it just once like Ned broke his marriage vow once when he had me" and a few lines later "We did it again 2 times that night and once again the next morning"

[@Balinux]

Watchers Pod Of course he wanted, but by sleeping with ygritte he consolidated his image as a wildling. It was a good move tactically, while rob breaking his vow actually lost him favor. That's why it's different.

[@WatchersPod]

+Balinux the fact that it was good tactically was like cream on cake. The point is that that's not why he did it, it was a happy accident or his excuse to himself for why he is doing so.

[@Balinux]

Watchers Pod The point is, Jon didn't endanger his mission and Rob did in full knowledge. So it's most certainly a different situation.

[@WatchersPod]

+Balinux and I agree but that was not the point I wanted to make in the video. Only that both broke a vow out of love. I agree the situation is different.

[@gematria79]

I hated HBO's concoction of that Talisa character cuz it made Robb seem stupid. In GRRM's version Robb was seriously wounded & nursed by a young noble daughter of the home of a noble. She fell in love with Robb. He was ill & had just learned his 2 brothers had been flayed by Theon. Jeyne sexually comforted Robb. Everyone, but the Freys, understood that Robb had to honorably propose after de-flowering a noble's virgin daughter. Jon being with Robb wouldn't have prevented 1/2 of Jeyne's family, the Freys & Lannisters from instigating the Red Wedding. Robb & Jon are the same as brothers cuz they are blood cousins raised by the same Father-figure. As the heir, Robb would hv always been the most secure(since his destiny was fixed) & Jon the more introspective. GRRM hasn't revealed any characteristics in Jon (yet) that aren't Stark attributes. Jon is a latent dragon. Lol

[@MandragoraFlower]

When I was reading the book it seemed to me that all this sitution with Jeyne and Robb was actually planned by her parents to make Robb break his vow. I do believe she indeed fell in love with Robb but still all this looks rather suspicious. And there was a talk in the book between Tyrion and Tywin when Tyrion had just learnt that Robb and Jeyne Westerling got married so he asked his father whether Westerlings do not remember what had happened to Reynes of Castamere as they were living quite close to the place. And Tywin said they do remember very well Reynes of Castamere. Plus Grey Wind didn't like Westerlings in the book, Robb even had to keep him apart because he thought the direwolf might harm them. Here's an extract: This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy... "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there." "Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you." And if it all was planned by Tywin and his bannermen then Robb Stark is even more a fool than he is.

[@rutger5000]

Yeah you're actually right. In the GoT universe few people would have cared much if Robb would have taken Talisa as a lover, and the a Frey woman as a wife. Sure the people in the North might frown down upon that a little, but nothing major.

[@jmac1039]

+Dorothy Preventa It was planned by Jeyne's mother and her brother Rolph Spicer. Whether Tywin took part in conceiving the plan is unknown, but most evidence points to it being unlikely. He was most likely informed by Sybel after Robb married Jeyne, and the plan evolved from there. Jeyne had no pet in it. She loved Robb, and as evidenced in AFFC was devastated by her mother and Uncles betrayal. Her mother had to forcibly take her crown away, and Jeyne had shredded her highborn clothes as a sign of love for Robb. Even Jeyne's brother Raynald was very loyal to Robb. He attempted to free Grey Wind during the Red Wedding and died trying.

[@mayam9575]

I think Robb turned to Jeyne because there was no one else with him who he could feel sad around. He couldn't show weakness in front of his troops or the other lords. If Jon was there he and Robb would have cried together and that would have been it.

[@pirimpallopirimpalli4932]

I always thought that it was Tywin's plan all along. He realized he was not winning over Robb and the balance lay on the Freys, so he made an agreement with Jeyne's mother, who was also related to him, and played Robb on his one predictable soft spot: as Catelyn later explains, Robb could never not save Jeyne's honour. It can't be compared with Jon's breaking his vows. Sure, it's a capital offence for the Night Watch, but more or less all of them do it every now and then. And, as Sam once said, the oath is not that specific: "I will take no wife/I will father no children". The sense is that a man of the Night's Watch can't be devoted to any other cause than the Wall. Jon's tryst with Ygritte was no marriage, it offended noone, it broke no allegiance, and it didn't stop him from going back and fighting with his Brothers against the Wildlings. So the parallel doesn't really hold here.

[@TheSchemer1]

To be fair at 4:00 Jon DID try to basically offer Janos Slynt a way out (unlike Robb with Karstark) but Janos Slynt continued to be insolent - killing him was the smart thing to do!

[@AgentRedgrave]

Jon's my favorite character, but Robb was a close second. I wish we'd gotten more scenes of the two of them together.

[@Victorhugo-wf1pn]

We'd love to

[@69bumbaclat]

Jon sacrificed his love for his allegiance to the Nights Watch. Robb sacrificed his alliance for love. Robb died for not honoring his alliance with the Freys. Jon died for trying to make an alliance with Wildlings.

[@ame7272]

I have to say Jon. There are so many characteristics and attributes that distinguish a man from another, so it's hard to go thru them all but the most obvious one to me is "giving in". Robb, though i love his character, gave in to his heart and disregard reason and logic when he didn't marry the Frey girl. He could've added 20,000 men to his army and gain the support of the Frey till the end of the war. Jon, also had a chance to give in to his sentiment towards Ygritte and it would've been easy, Robb had to go against his mother and advisors to marry his woman, Jon didn't have anyone, but his conscience, to stop him, yet he did uphold his duty and didn't give in to his feelings. So, I choose Jon.

[@PadmeXoXo]

but jon snow was murdered and betrayed for doing the right thing. while robb fucked up, and it led him to his doom. they're not the same at all. besides jon chose duty over love when he stick to the plan of infiltrating the wildlings and he left ygritte to prepare the night's watch. on the other hand robb chose love over duty, and it led to the red wedding, and the north not remembering in season 6. and there's a difference between the executions of rickard karstark and janos slynt. sure karstark disobeyed his king, but the repercussions of killing him was huge that robb should have struck a compromise. he was all about honor and pride at that point. if robb didn't kill him, he wouldn't have gone to freys. while jon's executing slynt is a smart move. not only it consolidated his authority, it was needed to be done in order to show discipline and ''the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword."

[@WatchersPod]

Well I agree that he ended up choosing duty in the end, which is something I regret not thinking about before. But I do think they are more similar than you let on. Yes the repercussions are different in the executions, but the idea behind them is the same and I dare say Jon would have done the same as Robb.

[@CODY_MUSIC]

Jon let the red woman go instead of executing her

[@MsShreya08]

She resurrected him to life...he owed his life to her. Perhaps that was the reason he went light with her.

[@CODY_MUSIC]

I suppose but as she said the lord of light brought him back not her power

[@MsShreya08]

For her, yes. For him, she brought him back. Anyway, it was not Ser Davos or Edd who muttered all those words and used R'hllor's power to bring him back to life. So there you go :)

[@bradyzee1607]

Jon didn't break his vow. The Night's Watch vow says "I will take no wife and father no children." Doesn't day anything about sex. But either way, there's a lot of evidence that the vows have been changed for some purpose over the years, and the original had nothing to do with this.

[@giovannimorenohernandez4656]

And Jon was literally forced to have sex with Igrite to prove that he was a real turncloack.

[@bradyzee1607]

Well, the cave scene is debatable. I'm not saying he didn't THINK he broke his vows, but he didn't ACTUALLY do so

[@WatchersPod]

+Brady Zee maybe you are right. But for the video the important thing is what he thought

[@WatchersPod]

+Giovanni Moreno Hernandez reread the chapter. Maybe if he did it once I'd agree. It's obvious he just looked for an excuse to sleep with her.

[@bradyzee1607]

I feel that his death is supposed to be the death of that failure. You have a point in that, regardless of if he broke his vow or not, he THINKS he did. However, his ressurection is the second chance Robb never got. In the books we don't know how he'll be, but in the show he's a (somewhat) changed man. He's scared, a little tentative at first. He almost seems lost. Perhaps He was following in his brother's footsteps, but I think that's stopped since his resurrection.

[@AndrewDW44]

The Difference is Rob's actions were mistakes. Jon's actions were right. It is a parallel the Question of Honor/Justice, When is doing the right thing wrong, and the wrong thing right. Rob kills a Karstark for killing a prisoner, Jon kills Janos for Mutiny. Rob breaks his oath his honor was on the line he gave his word to the Freys and made Deal. Jon broke his oath, but in his situation his honor was not on the line. He fell in love and kept his honor. He technically did not break his oath he did not father any sons, He was not wed. Jon is better, his choices were made out of necessity or with a pure heart. Robs mistakes were of Pride, and Lust.

[@Syndor12]

That's not true, saying one is right and the other is wrong is a really primitive way of looking at it, if you look at it from different perspectives than they are both right and they are both wrong. And nothing Robb did came from pride, and in the books he married the girl for honour, not for lust.

[@riccardomonico1325]

Robb married her for love. Not lust.

[@REDRAGON12345]

And Robb slept with a woman he wasn't supposed to out of "honour" and not "lust"? Come on man, we all love Robb, but he clearly made a mistake with sleeping with her. Take the fanboy glasses off. He may have tried to remedy the situation after his horrendous mistake, but the mistake was made nonetheless.

[@riccardomonico1325]

shit mate maybe you should get some glasses if that's what you saw.

[@SkillaWillits]

REDRAGON12345 Robb fell in love, it wasn't lust. If you haven't done something stupid for a woman then you're not human. Secondly Robb had to punish Karstark severely, sure he could have sent him to the wall, but he couldn't have just imprisoned him. Karstark challenged his judgement of his mother, if he didn't punish Karstark severely it would have looked like Robb was to soft to lead. It would have compromised his leadership in the eyes of his people. The judgement need to be severe for the crime, treason.

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

The difference between Jon and Robb, Ned, and Rhaegar is that Jon got another chance, they didn't.

[@WatchersPod]

+Carly Crays I said something like that in the video

[@luckydominguez2654]

The difference is that Jon is needed to end the Plot LOL so he´s gonna be as smarter and better as he needs to be.

[@GoldenRose116]

except he hasn't shown o be smarter or better since he was resurected. If anything he became more of a idiot, luckly for him with masive plot armor

[@luckydominguez2654]

He did came with the idiotic plan of catching a wight traveling all the way withouth transport and a escape plan, but every charachter was involved though, and Robb would do nothing if he were still alive probably left Talissa for another woman LOL

[@kyrolloswanees6787]

Great video but I have some slight disagreements. While Robb's decisions to marry for love and execute Lord Karstark were awful strategic moves, Jon's parallel moves should be viewed differently. With regard to Ygritte, you said that you don't buy that his relationship with her was just another way to sell his supposed newfound allegiance to the wildlings. I agree that it was more than that; he obviously genuinely loved her. And yet, his relationship with her did serve the purpose of solidifying his position as one of the free folk. Mance even said as much while treating with Jon in his tent the morning after the Battle of Castle Black in S4E10, saying something like, and I paraphrase, "I had hoped she would be enough to truly make you one of us" (or was it Tormund who said something along these lines?) Either way, breaking his Night's Watch vows by sleeping with a wildling woman made it more believable to Mance, Tormund, etc that he had really become one of them. Ygritte herself knew Jon was just acting and remained loyal to the Watch, but she didn't care. In fact, one could argue that her love for him saved Jon's life, not only by selling his lie to the other wildlings, but also by rendering Ygritte unable to kill him when she had the chance too twice (once when he first ran away from Tormund's party, a second time seconds before her death when they came across each other during the Battle at Castle Black) because she loved him so much. Whether he intended it or not, Jon's relationship with Ygritte served him well, while Robb's with Talisa led to estrangement with the Freys, one of his most powerful bannermen, in turn ultimately leading to their betrayal and his death at the Red Wedding. As for Jon's execution of Janos Slynt, there was no evidence that this action led directly to any negative repercussions akin to those Robb suffered after beheading Lord Karstark. Robb lost the support of an important northern house and all its men; Jon not only technically lost no loyalties, but I felt that he in fact actually solidified the crows' loyalty to him and gained their respect by beheading Slynt. Robb had not just been crowned shortly before Karstark's betrayal; he had already established himself as king in the eyes of his subjects and won several battles against the Lannisters. He would not have lost much respect by imprisoning Karstark but not killing him, especially when that would've been the best strategic move, as all his top advisors argued. But Jon, the youngest of the 3 candidates for Lord Commander, had just been elected; he had no choice but to execute Slynt or else risk weakening his status amongst his men and the strength of his authority and word from the very beginning of his rule. There is also evidence that men respected the decision. Take Aliser Thorne, Jon's nemesis who had just bitterly lost the election to Jon by a single vote yet had still been appointed First Ranger, and Slynt's friend and ally. once Jon moved to punish Slynt for his insolence, Thorne stepped aside and gave his friend up, an important display of fealty or at least deference to the new Lord Commander by an important senior brother of the Watch. If Thorne would respect Jon's first big decision, so would the rest. Also, Stannis very clearly admired Jon for doing what he felt needed to be done. After observing the execution from the rafters across the yard, Stannis gave Jon that knowing nod and semi-smirk seconds after Jon had swung the sword. Thorne and Stannis respected Jon for firmly establishing his authority, while pretty much no one reacted to Robb's Karstark blunder similarly.

[@kyrolloswanees6787]

Also, sorry if this was repetitive / if previous commenters have already made the same points below

[@dennisduffy21stcenturybeep25]

Ya most importantly Jon broke off the relationship when he was able to get back to the Watch to try and warn them rather than doing what Robb did and shirking his duty for love when it would have probably been easier from a practical perspective for Jon to just hang with the Wildlings who at that point looked like were going to crush the Watch and continue banging Ygritte. Jon did some short term stuff that broke some rigid rules partially in furtherance of his mission, but when push came to shove he kept his eyes on the big picture and the Watch's mission. Robb did the opposite by marrying when he basically had every opportunity and plenty of reasons not to. Jon had limited options and was basically a captive and still risked everything in the end to get away to get back to his awful post.

[@charlesjenkins7130]

Sam says it somewhere; The Oath is to father no children, not, dont have sex. Without birth control, if ones pull out game is strong, you got a damn fine chance of Fathering No Children. And apparently the only oath the gods care about is guest-right, so WTF, do whatever, just treat that stranger under your roof real nice.

[@WatchersPod]

+Charles Jenkins he did no pull out.

[@gaslone79]

Jon snow killing Janos Slynt is not like Rob killing Rickard Kardstark at all. Janos was up jumpt by the Lannisters for keeping the gold cloaks on their side when Ned tried to arrest Cerci. Janos was sent to the wall by Tyrion a few months (year?) before he was executed by Jon. He backs Alliser Thorn but is laughed at when Sam tells his story about how he hid while the wildlings attacked. Janos Slynt was not respected by a large portion of the Nights Watch, he was not the leader of a large part of them. Alliser Thorn himself looked annoyed at him when he disobeyed a direct order from the Lord Commander. The situation was way different, if it annoyed people it was because they already hated Jon. Most people (in universe) would probably agree that what Jon did was the right thing to do. You can't have people disobeying the Lord Commander because they just don't like him.

[@bradivimey3567]

I feel all the points you made about Jon are wrong. 1: Jon was basically forced to make love with Ygritte, especially in the books where it meant his security with the wildlings. even though he ended up liking it he felt guilty afterwards because he broke hi vow. 2: With the beheading it's simple the guy didn't follow Jon's orders and Jon had to prove his leadership. 3: Jon wasn't too trusting. He did trust Olly but really the kid 'saved' Jon's life and clearly admired Jon so it wasn't hard for Jon to trust him and that's why the betrayal is more heartbreaking. This is just my opinion BTW

[@HolyknightVader999]

Eh, no. All Jon can do is belch out "Muh Queen" and fail at battles. He can't even beat Cersei without Dany's help. Whereas Robb was keeping the Lannister patriarch Tywin Lannister at bay, defeating him in battle after battle, forcing the latter to rely on trickery and betrayal to get Robb's bannermen to turn on him. As for Jon, his own men turned on him on their own due to him bowing down to Dany, when in reality, he should have used their romantic relationship to make her bend the knee to him in more ways than one. If Robb was in charge of the North during Season 7 (IDK, have the Brotherhood without Banners revive him like they did Stoneheart by sowing his head back onto his body) he'd defeat Cersei AND the Night King with superior tactics, then when he falls in love with Dany, he'd actually have the balls to marry her and become King of the Seven Kingdoms.

[@FarahRace]

HolyknightVader999 fax

[@fightingmedialounge519]

I doubt that would happen if Robb was in charge.

[@King_Mac80]

"You shall have no wives and father no children" as Sam pointed out nowhere in the vows whether the book version or show version does it say you shouldn't sleep with any women

[@WatchersPod]

as I pointed out in other comments, this does not matter. Even if you are right Jon believed he was breaking his vows so my point still stands

[@King_Mac80]

+Watchers Pod nope because when Sam points it out he laughs and says Ser Alister doesn't want to hear about any loopholes that doesn't sound like a man who thinks he's broken any vows especially the most honorable man left alive

[@WatchersPod]

Well maybe, I think he saw this as breaking the vows but I might be wrong. I do think that it was understood and someone like sam is playing lawyer. plus she could have had a child. But I relent this is just what I believe

[@cerebrumexcrement]

Men of the Night's Watch knew about those who would sneak off to Moles Town to fuck with the women there. It's like one of those rules that nobody enforces and everyone turns a blind eye when it happens.

[@King_Mac80]

thenotorious ong exactly if no one else was killed for it or punished then Jon certainly didn't do anything wrong

[@tjjordan4207]

This is just my opinion, but I believe Jon Snow is better than Robb Stark. Both men are similar in a lot of ways, but I feel that Jon Snow has grown to put aside his emotions and do what he believed was logical and smart. He made the man he disliked First Ranger, he formed an alliance with the Wildlings, he turned his back on love (after having some 'fun' first), and he even let his own killers say their last words before hanging them (I know I would have done worse if I was in his position). But like I said, its just my opinion.

[@dennisduffy21stcenturybeep25]

In general I agree although late last season Jon was characterized as really fickle and needlessly reckless. I think they wanted us to think it had to do with his resurrection but I don't think they gave Jon's post resurrection arc enough time up to the Battle of the Bastards to give audiences a better idea of Jon's evolution and better sell his weird decisions for the battle. Largely it just came off as another case of having a character act kind of bizarrely for the sake of other characters' arcs, in this case Sansa and Littlefinger and then kind of shoehorning in a reason for that behavior without adequate development.

[@tjjordan4207]

Dennis Duffy 21st Century Beeper Salesman I agree with a lot of your points about Jon Snow acting weird during the Battle of the Bastards, but I always felt that he acted the way he did because of the death of Rickon. But even then I had a hard time buying it, because we never really saw what the relationship was between them, so we didn't really care or believe in it. But I definitely agree that they could have done Jon's post-resurrection better. It was a missed opportunity.

[@idakev]

I don't know, I think it was done pretty well, albeit, subtle at points. Jon felt like he had no control over his own destiny after coming back , with Melisande saying she'd bring him back even if he lost before the battle. He decided to fight for Sansa, even though he knew he'd most likely lose. He was struggling to come back, be confident and be himself. When he charged towards Ramsay, it was his way of having some control back and deciding HIS fate. And then there was the rebirth scene, followed by Jon staring Ramsay down. He was finally back, but he'd clearly aged and wised up as well.

[@jld3666]

I'm kind of passing off some of Jon's behaviour in season 6 as PTSD after being resurrected as I'm hoping it was the reason behind some poor decisions he made. In the past he has made some really good decisions and he's proven himself to be a great leader and battle commander. Overall I agree in that Jon has shown to be a better leader than Robb and, apart from the bit involving Rickon, he rarely lets his emotions get in the way of his duty. Robb lost the battle the day he married Talisa.

[@SpookyMarine]

JL D He charged to save his brother because that's the only reason he felt he had living for... and when he failed he decided that he didn't care anymore and was ready to face the Boltons Calvary alone. His army made the choice to charge after him so he wouldn't die alone, knowing it could cost the battle.

[@MisterUnknown707]

I don't give a shit what anyone says Jon and Robb will always forever be brothers.

[@ml0723]

Robb was the better military leader, Jon was the better leader of men. People need to remember that Robb got fucked over. His own mother stabbed him in the back when she let Jamie Lannister go, then he got seduced by some Westerlands chick, got betrayed by the Karstarks (you don't take both sons into battle because there's a chance you'd lose both, so Karstark can't fucking get pissy because they were killed. it's war!) when they killed two unarmed boys who were prisoners, and then Robb got betrayed by the Freys under Guest Rights (which is a BIG fucking deal, not even your enemies would do that!) and the Boltons as well. Robb never lost a battle and his enemies had to resort to some of the worst crimes in the eyes of the Seven and the Old Gods to get rid of him. That's some high praise! Jon on the other hand, couldn't battle his way out a wet paper sack. He's a hell of a fighter, but he's a dipshit when it comes to tactics and strategy. Sansa fucking warned him that Ramsay would play him, and play him Ramsay did. Jon knew their only shot at winning the Battle of the Bastards was to make Ramsay charge their position, but instead Jon led his undersized force in a charge against a larger force and they got slaughtered. if it wasn't for Sansa and the Vale, it would have been over. This on top of the fact that Jon knew what was coming, knew that he needed every able bodied man he could get to face the Long Night, so having a huge fucked up battle with heavy casualties, especially when it wasn't necessary, was fucking stupid of him. Jon does inspire people though. He inspired the wildlings, he inspired the nightswatch, he inspired the north. He made a reputation nearly as fearsome as Robbs. But while he was inspirational and cared for his people and put his duty before all else, Jon's downfall would and will always be, the military campaign.

[@JohnBainbridge0]

Honestly, I think Rob is a much stronger character all around. They've both made mistakes, and you're right that they are extremely similar, but Rob had things that Jon didn't. Rob was way smarter and way more charismatic than Jon has ever been. If it was Rob facing off against Ramsey, Rob would have held his ground like he was told and that would have saved a lot of lives.

[@WatchersPod]

+John Bainbridge I am not the person to talk about this. Together with Tywin, Robb is my favorite character.

[@glorilol9546]

jon was smart enough to not get his passion ruin his entire campaign jon had the guts to kill and judge people he care for un like robb who pretty let his emotion get over him when his mother comit treason as equal thzan karstark and lose all his force....jon would have marry roslin frey no matter if thius was the right thing to do..in the books jon is better warrior,mature and smarter than robb or other stark siblings the show clearly dumnb him down robb himself as a equal and the only worthy of taking huis place if he die

[@maheshkrishna6012]

Dude robb was one of the best battle commanders Jon was just a good swordsman

[@darkjourney35]

Agree Robb was great up until he fell in love where he messed up and all got killed due to him not keeping his word..

[@khotunkhan3950]

Smarter sure But charisma???? Naaaa

[@tiffles3890]

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about if you think killing Janos slynt was a mistake. On the contrary, its the very opposite. It was an opportunity well capitalised. Karstark was loyal follower of Robb. Strategically (not morally), justice for those two lannister kids, whom I doubt the rest of the Lannisters gave any shits about themselves, wasn't worth alienating the karstarks and their forces. Whereas Janos Slynt and Co. (including Thorne) hated Jon. If Jon hadn't demonstrated to the entire watch that he wasn't to be taken lightly, they would've openly started challenging his authority thereafter. Jon would've lost charge of the watch bit by bit. Moreover, killing Janos was no loss. Nobody liked him, no great house deserted Jon, nor was janos any use as a fighter.

[@josephstalin9969]

In the vows of the nights watch it never said no fucking it just says no children.

[@WatchersPod]

+Joseph Stalin I had this argument too many times. You can see responses in other comments. Might be wrong though

[@josephstalin9969]

Watchers Pod You don't need to reply to this as I see you have indeed argued about it a lot, but I would like to say that I think your argument is shit. Jon never broke any vows of not fucking as there are no vows a celibacy.

[@WatchersPod]

+Joseph Stalin he himself said "yes I broke a vow" and that's fine the idea of the video is to open discussion. I just hope you enjoyed the video

[@josephstalin9969]

Watchers Pod I enjoyed the rest of the video but just disagreed with you on this point.

[@WatchersPod]

Thats great, I believe people learn from listening to the opposite side of a point, even if thats me.

[@Devlerbat]

Jon killing Jason Slynt is not the same as Rob killing Kartark. Karstark was still willing to listen to Rob, he just did this one thing behind Rob's back for the sake of his revenge. Jon was actually advised by Stannis to send Jason Slynt away because Slynt seemed likely to cause discipline issues. A concern Slynt proved the merit of when he refused the order to man another castle. And no one was on Slynt's side either. The people Slynt thought would be on his side stepped aside so that Jon could execute him. TLDR: Killing Karstark was a bad move tactical, killing Slynt was a good tactical move.

[@dahfighter9914]

Devan Bates Janos, not Jason.

[@MisterTutor2010]

They both got to be King in the North.

[@LucianC137]

Robb was better than jon in every thing

[@cerebrumexcrement]

Although they may be similar, there are some crucial differences between Robb and Jon's storylines: 1. Robb was declared King of the North from the very beginning, Jon was looked down as a bastard and had to earn his way into any leadership role. 2. Robb broke his vow and married someone else, Jon was arrested by the Night's Watch for killing Qhorin and joining the the Wildlings, not fucking one. 3. Robb executed a loyal bannerman which alienated him from his followers, Jon executed a rebellious coward which earned him respect as Lord Commander. 4. Robb was betrayed for Lannister gold, Jon was mutinied over differences of opinion on the "realm of men" that the Night's Watch served to protect. 5. Robb's best friend betrayed him so his daddy would like him, Jon's best friend doesn't like his dad, stole his dad's sword, and helping Jon. 6. Robb died with his wife and unborn child, Jon was resurrected. 7. Grey Wolf was decapitated, Ghost is still alive.

[@cerebrumexcrement]

8. Robb had power struggles with his mother, Jon is having power struggles with his half-sister. (But they'll find out they're first cousins.)

[@WatchersPod]

Well yea of course they are not exactly the same some I said in the video. One similarity I forgot though is that when they died both of them had the same last word, their direwolf name.

[@havok6280]

Not on the show. Jon's last words on the show were Ollie. In the book, his last words are Ghost.

[@gerben2401]

"I will have no wife, and bear no children." Why does everyone think Jon broke his vows? He just had sex..

[@WatchersPod]

well when he told them that their response was and i quote "So you admit to breaking your vows then"

[@gerben2401]

Watchers Pod Yes, but I I was Jon Snow, I would say: "What vow says I can't have sex, I never vowed celibacy.", they wouldn't have an answer.

[@WatchersPod]

I think its understood that its a part. you can see from how people act.

[@megsmacgregs320]

+Watchers Pod It's not black and white, it's a grey area. Plenty of men of the nights watch have sex, that's why the Maester said "So should we execute the rest of the boys that sneak out to the brothels at night?". He can't father children, saying he cannot claim a child, he cannot marry but he can have lovers. That's why it's a grey area

[@WatchersPod]

I disagree he just said that everyone break that vow. but everyone called it a vow, including Jon. So even if you say its not. Jon thought it is because he said "yes I broke the vow"

[@phoenixrising8231]

Jon is humble. Robb had too much hubris.

[@PaulCDehlinger]

I don't even like Jon but some o these points are way off. Jon really didn't have a choice in the matter with Yigriite. He did actually fall in love with her but he also had to have her on his side if he was going to keep his cover and he chose the watch in the end. Also while the marriage was a big mistake placing so much trust in Roose Bolton was really the true mistake. That and sending Theon to Pike. But the Karstark situation was unavoidable. Robb's only in that situation because his mom let Jamie go robbing him of his revenge. Once Rickard Karstark killed those hostages his loyalty and his men were lost to Robb. No one seems to understand that. If your deliberately disregarding your kings commands you've already made the decision not to follow him. Keeping Rickard Karstark alive wouldn't have stopped his son from rebelling or siding with the Boltons. Lastly if you had to watch the season twice to understand Janos Slint was in the first season I don't think you follow the show closely enough to understand the complexity of these characters.

[@azazshah4022]

I felt that Jon killed Slynt because he challenged Jon's authority. He could not just let that go, if he did he would have lost all respect, this guy just bitched him out and he let him live? Really? Jon had just become lord commander beating out more qualified men, he had to do it to show he was not fucking around and not someone you could push around just because he was a bastard and younger than most he was leading. Also, if you paid attention, right before Slynt dies he says "I'm afraid, I've always been afraid..." that was the moment, when I think, Jon realized that this man was weak, that he would betray them or fall to fear as soon as the first sign of danger arose. He did it at the battle at the wall, though that wasen't that big of deal since Stannis came. Imagine if it had been different, since he did hold a high position in the Watch, he would have been in charge of leading men in battle or in other dangerous situations, so what if he did fall to fear, those men could die with him or he could run or change sides, both of which he already did. By killing Slynt, Jon is showing himself strong, he is establishing authority. By killing Slynt, Jon is really helping the watch.

[@raylast3873]

That being said: None of the male Starks really ever learned to be manipulative enough. Ned is too predictable and expects others to behave as he does. Robb doesn't know how to keep his allies in line. Jon? Well, he can't sell his most important idea to his allies and sends all his most loyal friends away. But they all have some very useful leadership qualities as well: - Robb is clearly a military genius, he outsmarts everyone on that front, especially Tywin. - Jon seems to inspire tremendous loyalty among the rank and file, which is incredibly hard to do. Yes, they have flaws, but losing the game of thrones is as much a matter of luck as of personal flaws. In the end, the biggest disadvantage most of the players have is not having dragons.

[@karenholmes6565]

Jon chose the Night's Watch over Ygritte. Jon chose his oath over his heart. Robb chose his desires over his oath to the Freys. That is an important difference between the two of them. In fact, it is the fundamental difference between the two of them. The book Robb thought his most honorable action was to break his oath because he deflowered the girl who was tending his wounds, so in that way maybe you could say Robb breaking his oath was the most honorable thing he could do under those circumstances. The girl fairly much seduced him. But it was still the wrong choice even if it was the most honorable choice under the circumstances. The TV Robb comes out much worse because he flagrantly ignored the well being of his people to marry and break his oath. The show probably does discredit to Robb's character with this difference. I don't think that they are the same person. I think RObb is a righteous warrior, but I also think that his motivations were very different from Jon. What motivates Jon is making the right choice to save the most people. What motivated Robb was to uphold his House, avenge his father, and to be what he was born to be, a Lord, and then a King. Jon has never had the pretense towards having that sort of power, people chose him to lead them. Not because of his name or because it is his "right". At the point he goes to take Winterfell he has no desire to lead. He just wants to keep his family safe. Robb was about Robb. He was willing to sacrifice his sisters to appease his men... he blamed his mother for the results of his own bad decisions, even though he ignored all of her good advice. I don't dislike Robb, he was a cool character, but he was no Jon Snow. Jon has his own flaws, but they are different from Robb's

[@WatchersPod]

i agree and something I hope I did not miss, he did choose the watch in the end.

[@StillSkrilla]

Even now, he is still choosing to help the watch. As "king in the north" he will most likely be fortifying the wall for winter.

[@WatchersPod]

+Adam Smith well that's not really true. He wanted to leave the watch and just wander. He only stayed cos of Sansa. He might do what you say but it wasn't what I'd call his choice

[@MsWannabeGamer]

In the last episode of season 6, it seems like Sansa has already made her peace with the fact that Jon is viewed as the leader of the North. She is surprised, but is ultimately happy for her "brother". It's LittleFinger I'm worried about. His plan to marry Sansa and control the North falls apart if Jon becomes the North's leader.

[@lbscree]

At the end of season 6 (I am assuming the same scene you are referencing) Sansa's eyes met Littlefinger's as the North men cheered to Jon, indicating to me that she has other plans. Her time at the capitol and marriage to Bolton changed her, I think she craves power because she was so long without. Not to mention I think she still views Jon as her half, illegitimate brother (she misspoke in season 6, indicating she thought of herself as the last Stark).

[@MsWannabeGamer]

Maziyapa Zi I thought her glance at LittleFinger was because she noticed he wasn't pleased with the outcome and now she's worried he'll try and undermine Jon.

[@lbscree]

That opinion is just as valid. The only reason I think otherwise is because of other indicators mentioned, and because Sansa plotting against Jon gives more conflict and makes for a more interesting (albeit sadder) story. We shall see! I can't wait lol.

[@mr.fandango6223]

I think Jon might be a worse leader than Rob. He seems even more like Ned to me.

[@51TGM71]

Jon is more duty while Ned and Robb was all about honor. When news came about his fathers death Robb had raised an army without trying to secure alliances with the bigger houses, some half-assed questions if anyone else wanted to join in in the middle of the war sure as hell wasnt gonna help. Tywin showed off his experiences, intellect and cunning in strategy in bringing the Freys, Boltons and Tyrells in to the fold mid-war. When Jon heard the news he chose to ride north beyond the wall against the white walkers (following duty) rather than go with Robb on his war (honor). Also Robb turned duty aside and married that other girl instead of his betrothed Frey girl, while Jon chose duty when he left Ygritte in order to warn and defend Castle Black. Jon has proven himself to be a selfless, never aspired to be the leader instead being a man people want to follow because of his selflessness. He always risk his life in order to save others and has even given it.

[@The810kid]

51TGM71 Jon didn't choose duty after he learned of Neds death he was this close from being a deserter and would have been beheaded had Sam and the others not brought him back

[@obscuremedia]

I keep saying this time and time and time again, the Freys had no intention of keeping any word to Robb. They were ignoble and didn't care who they fucked over just so long as they got what they wanted in the end. If you look at what Frey did when Catelyn grabbed his wife and put the knife to her throat. That is proof positive Frey cared for no one, not even his own freaking wife. What did he say to Cat, "I'll find another." No bargaining or begging for her life. He didn't say, "Lady Stark, we talk this over. Please don't do this to my wife. I love her and yadda...yadda....yadda." He said, "I'll find another." People are interchangable to men like him. He certainly lied to Cat when the deal was struck with the marriage in that not ALL his daughters were present. If he had any intention of honouring his oath to Robb, he would have had all his family present. So when Edmure removed Roslin's veil and it was revealed she was a looker, that was the first time we got to see her. So in that Frey lied. Then we have the scene where the Stark contingent arrived at The Twins for the wedding. If that had been me as Robb and "Lord" Frey started insulting my wife, his Queen, like that.... marriage off and all Stark's men pulled out and a siege of The Twins is on. No way would I have allowed my wife to be insulted like Frey did to Talisa. And that's what that was, an insult. And don't forget Guest Rites. Then we have the whole issue with Jaime sitting there in his hall. He was all in his own business about retaking the Riverlands, yet Jaime had to remind him who it was that helped in that regard with the rejoiner about Lannister men having to ride North to help the Freys retake the castle AGAIN! Walder Frey had no loyalty PERIOD! None, and that's what Jaime's quip was. Point proven. So to say that Robb was a bad leader is a straw argument because Robb was never given the chance with all the treachery around him. As for Jon, like I said below to +Pete Jon is alive only because he is the story's messianic figure. He has to survive as the Prince that was Promised, otherwise, he'd be pushing up the same daisies Robb, Cat, Talisa and the Stark Bannermen are.

[@liquidsword29]

Jon was ordered to break his oath by the halfhand so as to be more convincing

[@WatchersPod]

Yes he was told that by halfhand, but he did not talk about sleeping with anyone. Jon did not sleep with her because of that, they fell in love.

[@liquidsword29]

he even killed the halfhand to sell the story.. so you're comparing apples and oranges really.

[@WatchersPod]

liquidsword29 but halfhand plan had nothing to do with him sleeping with her. They fell in love

[@liquidsword29]

he was more bound by is duty than by love obviously... and after killing your fellow brother sleeping with someone becomes a mute point.

[@WatchersPod]

I don't think so. I think he still cared about the vow and had he not been in-love with her he would not have done it. I think you can argue both ways, this is just how see it. mainly because killing halfhand was part of the plan, he was honoring him by doing that and his plan. Sleeping with her was not and he did that because he loved her.

[@chance79th77]

They’re both the products of Ned’s honor The same shit that happened to Ned, happened them

[@pnxbill]

Season 4 ep 01: Jon says Rob was better than him at everything.

[@dooky1089]

Bill Marques He said it to Sam didn't He?

[@pnxbill]

The D.O.C. Protége he did, indeed.

[@expressrobkill]

yea but i think jon was being modest jon is definitely the better fighter, the show is suggesting he is one of the best in at least the north.

[@dooky1089]

expressrobkill Meh. Not as good as Maise Williams.

[@expressrobkill]

arya is good but jon is much better, mazie is more of a stealth killer, she had got skill and suprize but i think there is a lot to suggest jon is one of the best.

[@nihaalsandim9986]

Robb was better at the time he was alive he already acted like a man While Jon was still experiencing things on the wall so at the time he was alive he was tadly better than jon

[@darylvanhorn8981]

Yes Jon should learn to be a liar, to be untrustworthy, to be paranoid with all who is around him and for good measure become ruthless.....because if he doesn't become all this he hasn't learned from his mistakes apparently. God this argument is so idiotic and it comes completely from a biased place in my opinion. Some people have this thing in their heads that if your scheming, dishonest or ruthless your somehow some kind of genius or its a measure of intelligence. Its the very reason you hear these people say Jon made mistakes or is stupid because he decides to do the right thing. Well I'll tell ya they couldn't be more wrong in fact I think there is a strong argument that its the biggest liars and schemers that live on borrowed time particularly now that Winter is here!

[@treefiddy727]

Unfortunately that's the idiotic premise the show writers have decided to stick with all these years. In the books it's more like "what goes around, comes around" doesn't matter who you are

[@Craven_Moorehead]

Very rarely do i find a person that doesn't waffle on for 2 minutes introducing the video. I think i can speak for most when i say, i appreciate how direct you are

[@WatchersPod]

I at least try cutting out as much fat from my videos as possible. I want my videos to also be entertaining. This is also why I don't like to bring quotes and stuff.

[@OzPiggy87]

Somewhat off topic but the "Battle of the Bastards" only happened in the show because: 1. D&D made Jon (and most of the people in the North, in fact) an utter moron who literally forgot everything he'd learned since leaving Winterfell, especially after making a big deal in Season 3 and 4 about Jon learning irregular warfare from the wildlings and the Night's Watch deserters (all of which he conveniently forgets before going against Ramsey). 2. D&D made Ramsay an even bigger tactical genius than his father (which IMO totally guts Roose's character). This is laughable on so many levels. Ramsey is shown (right up until he skewers Roose in the show) to be impulsive, irrational, impatient, and whimsical. Yet, somehow, he manages to plot with sycophant show-Karstark to kill off his entire family, without anyone (including Roose) getting so much as a whiff of treachery. 3. D&D made Sansa a moron who let's the only other person who knows how the Boltons operate ride away. She knows they need to defeat the Boltons to go home (by her own admission) yet allows Theon to leave and refuses Littlefinger's offer of the Knights of the Vale (which she subsequently changes her mind about) while simultaneously allowing Littlefinger to trick her into sending Brienne away. Furthermore, Sansa berates Jon when he's trying to plan for the battle, despite not having any plan of her own. She is singularly unhelpful to Jon by giving him vague advice and not actually giving him any idea of what Ramsey is likely to do. This is in complete contrast to Season 2 where she manages to understand battle tactics (and Joffrey) enough to trick Joffrey into going where he's most likely to die. Season 6 made all the remaining Starks as stupid as possible for the sake of artificially inflating the stakes and manufacturing drama. Not to mention all the other weak plots there were. Excuse me, I have to peace out before I start writing another lengthy essay on what the show screwed up recently...

[@Dark_Voice]

Problem is you dont need to write essey. What did the show screw up in Season 5 and 6? .... Everything.

[@sbam4881]

Robb is a far superior general than Jon. Tywin himself admired Robb's strategic and tactical nous, whilst Jamie admitted to Olena that he had to learn from Robb's generalship. Jon, OTOH, tends to lose his head (stepping forward alone at the battle of the Bastards and again towards the Night King after Viserion was speared). One result is that all Jon led battles have been chaotic melees _and he hasn't actually won one yet._ It was Stannis' double pincer that lifting the Wildlings' siege, not the his defense of the Wall, and it was the Vale cavalry that defeated the Boltons after Ramsey actually had him beat with the shield wall strategem.

[@0307scott]

Robb followed the example his father taught him, that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword and Jon also followed that example by beheading Janos Slynt.

[@victorf6672]

Difference between Jon and Robb, Jon has stronger armor, plot armor that is.

[@nathanielkadetz57]

JANOS, not JASON. And I would say these two, while at their core are somewhat similiar, are miles apart. Jon is much more mature, at first, having to grow up fast and also a reluctant leader. Robb wanted to lead his men. As dumbledore told harry in Harry Potter, "those of us who shun leadership oft times make the best leaders, whereas those of us who desire and crave it end up making poor leaders" or somewhat along those lines. Basically Jon by this point now has 3 strong kingdoms in his donain( north, vale, and riverlands, at least the blackwoods and mallisters and perhaps a few mkre) plus he wildlings. He has a much more secure position than robb...he hasn't left the north, and te men fighting for him are much more loyal, true, robbs men were loyal, but it was bc he was the heir of winterfell. These other lords chose Jon bc they saw great potential in him even tho he's a bastard. There's a mile of difference there

[@oscarmike5707]

When Robb got laid, he lost allies. When Jon got laid, he acquired more allies.

[@spedman56]

To awnser the Title....No. There not different. Except Robb didn’t get no second chances

[@eclipser5945]

John himself at one point (I don't remember where exactly was) said that Robb was much more better than me at everything. but being better doesn't mean that you will get the best results. This a real life rule and GOT always wanted to show that, specially by starks

[@WatchersPod]

Well take what Jon said with a grain of salt. He looked up to Robb, he was thought and everyone told him that Robb was his better so it might not be that true.

[@truly8177]

A lot of people are saying Jon chose duty over love did he really though he fell in love with a wildling then fell in love with the wildling customs he wanted them to live south of the wall and was murdered for it the biggest difference between him and Robb was that he was brought back

[@fightingmedialounge519]

Except he left his love and wanted then to live south of the wall to help with the white walkers

[@josephszakovits7330]

Robb’s first mistake was sending Theon to the Iron Islands, which lead to his brothers’ deaths and the fall of Winterfell. In the books his grief leads him to sleep with and marry a woman, leading to the Red Wedding. The marriage was his second big mistake, and beheading Karstark was the hat trick. You could argue failing to let Edmure in on the plan leading to him attacking too early was another because it lead to Lannister victory, which was worse for them than Stannis victory. If Stannis won they might have been able to align with the Tyrells and survive.

[@smashyourmail951]

did Jon Execute the Red women? No, but what if rob might do. Surely he kill her. Jon may consider about consequences too.

[@moe5020]

She resurrected Jon (at least thats what he thinks it may have been Davos) so killing her would be stupid

[@wesleymartins5970]

Jon is funny. He believed being a bastard was the worst. Little did he know, that being a bastard means he lives in a castle. Poor people are not called bastards, even if they are, by deffinition. No one cares if a stable boy knows his father or not.

[@njoYYY]

Well... Robb made something stupid - and died. Jon made something even more stupid - and survived. I believe he learned from that, will be more calm and be better in the end. But who knows.

[@nicolecoleman8027]

Yeah! Jon died stupid for saving and help Wildings from Wrights over Night Watch how stupid is that you sounds like idoit yourself. Jon Brothers Night Watch kill him because he saves the Wildings and Night Watch brothers hates The Wildings except for Jon plain and as simple.

[@njoYYY]

Yea, and I was talking about him being so angry about Rickon Starks death that he just charged in the enemy army and survived by pure luck and help from other people. But yea. its def. me who sounds stupid now... I talked about Jon surviving his stupid action, not dying and being revived. Please take a comment section break for the next 6 months to recover what's left of your brain. Thanks.

[@Wildgoldfish4]

to be fair, you didn't make it very clear that you meant that "stupid action"

[@njoYYY]

It is pretty clear when you look at the part "he survived". But ppl are too stupid to read I guess

[@Atheist603]

Jon saved wildlings because he knew that if they stayed beyond the wall, they were all going to add to the army of the undead, that's pretty smart. Can you imagine having wun-wun as a wight?

[@Lilitha11]

The only difference between the two is one has a magic suit of plot armor.

[@noahorakwue2653]

Jon was the better leader because while both Jon and Robb made decisions that got them killed Jon's choice to unite with the wildlings was in there best interest of everyone they just either didn't care or couldn't realize it. Whereas, Robb's decision to marry talisa was one out of passion and to kill lord karstark was out of honor and pride. If he had listened to his mom and spared karstark's life they would have stayed loyal and if he had kept his word to walder frey he'd still be alive and probably have won the war.

[@ericksantos4555]

I like Rob more. While he was young and naive as any teenager would be, he was a leader. He lead an army against the most powerful man in westeros and won every battle. Even while Ned Stark was still alive, his banner men crowned him King of the North. Both made very similar mistakes and both lived different lives after they left Winterfell. Jon simply got a second chance.

[@justsaiyansteve]

Today I learned, plot armor.

[@btrezetreze6150]

Robb broke his vows when he was broken inside after winning every single battle and still losing the war, been betrayd by his "friend(Theon)" soldier (kastark) and his own Mother, "lost" his 2 brothers and had his home burned, Arya was missed, and on top of all he was only had 15~18. Just the war pressure was enough and he still tried to do the honoured thing by marryingh Jenny.

[@crustyclothes]

You are right that Jon and Robb have gone through similar situations, but I think the choices that they have made in those situations is what have shaped their characters and fates. >Jon and Robb broke their vows. Technically, Jon didn't, but let's say he did for argument's sake. The difference between Jon and Robb in this case is that Jon kept his vows to the Night's Watch and abandoned Ygritte even though he loved her, a lot. Robb not only broke his vows to the Freys, but then he had the nerve to rub it in Walder's face afterwards. Walder was a horrible person, but what Robb did was low and disrespectful. In a way, Robb was really selfish. You would have had a stronger point if Jon had never fled from his captors and stayed with Ygritte. >Jon and Rob killing those who betrayed their orders. The difference is that Robb ruled entitled lords vying for power rather than a rag tag group of outcasts, criminals, and etc. Once you are in the Night's Watch that is all you have. Jon was asserting his power over someone who defied his orders. Janos and the older members did not take Jon seriously due to him being a bastard and his young age. If Jon had let Janos live who knows how many other brothers would also pull a similar stunt? In Robb's case he had to deal with lords, their houses, and etc. There were much more politics to deal with. Rather than to play his cards right or even listen to his advisors he did what he thought was right and disregarded everyone else. That's not what a King is supposed to do. A king is chosen by their people not the other way around. By the time Robb started listening it was already too late. Dany is a perfect example of this. She also got her supporter beheaded, because he defied her orders. She also burned one master to a crisp to set an example and scare the others. Then she jailed them. Though, after listening to her advisors and mulling over her actions she saw the error in her ways. The point is listening to the people around you and heeding their advice helps to not fuel resentment to those serving you. >Sansa/Littlefinger and Theon connection I do hope that Jon will not screw up where Robb did and squash that before it becomes a problem. I do agree that Jon does seem like he is falling into a similar trap by disregarding Sansa. Jon is going to be totally helpless against Littlefinger.

[@TheNyxmaster]

Your words are gold crustyclothes. But I must desagree with your statement at the end! Too many people are blaming Jon for not to listen to Sansa. But hey? what did/does she have to say? seriously? when Jon finaly told her in "the Battle of the Bastards" "Ok Sansa, what would you do"... the bitch said "I don't know"... well, I would have reply "then shut the fuck up"!! Every body is getting crazy because in the second half of the season she wears a Stark dress with some makup and doen't smile a lot. But hey! in season 5, she looked pretty amazing with the black dress etc before she got raped and molested by Ramsay... Ok, one time, she spoke to Little Finger like a badass lady... and then what? she got moked by Leanna Mormont and Lord Glover, she kept critical informations from Jon about the Knights of the Val causing the dead of hundreds warriors just to apologyze after the battle... damn!! she is soooo far of beeing smart or learning shit !!

[@WatchersPod]

I don't blame Jon at all, you can't say "wait" when you add nothing and won't say why wait

[@Tangodownmtndew]

I always thought the executions Robb, Jon, and Ned did had some kind of meaning. They all executed by beheading and in the name of justice. Not to mention were betrayed and killed shortly after. There's something behind it.

[@omkargurav8992]

The one thing out of many others that I never liked about jon is his reaction to robbs death in books and on show. Robb treated jon as his brother and I am pretty sure robb would have felt bad if jon would have died before robb. Robb would have reacted like when he reacted after hearing about ned.

[@danielbukari3834]

Rob was an unbelievably better leader than Jon he both tricked the way more battle experienced Tywin Lannister and captured a Jamie Lannister at full power if the Boltons the south would’ve opted for peace and hed be the real king of the north.

[@quillanjacobson1478]

You cannot compare Janos Slynt to Karstark, the situation is entirely different. Janos was bound by honor and by disobeying he was breaking his oath to the night's watch. A crime punishable by death. Karstark was executed for killing enemy soldiers in a way Robb didn't like, so Robb, bound by no code, kills him and loses half his army. woops. John is smarter than Robb

[@TutaNA-mu8sy]

the difference between Jon and robb is Robb didnt come back from the dead

[@masterexploder9668]

Jon was actually kind of married to Ygritte, considering how Wildlings customs work. Also vows don't say anything about sex like Sam pointed out (I think). Not to mention, Crows are actually going to Mole's Town to have some good time in brothel. Not saying it absolves Jon but still. Killing Slynt was fine. So overall, Jon sacrificed his honor and reputation to get the job done - spying on Wildlings or saving them from White Walkers. While Robb sacrificed the job to keep his honor, which he lost anyway. Well, he tried to keep his honor in the books, but it was impossible, considering it was Frey girl or Jeyne. Like Jaime Lannister pointed out, you just can't keep all vows, it's too much. In the show, fool Robb just fell in love. It wouldn't be a big deal if he was winning the war, but he wasn't, he simply lacked manpower and some more decisive battles to happen. Beheading Karstark. Well, he was the guy who loyally served Ned or even his father Rickard for all these years, joining in wars and perfectly loyal. What Karstark did was killing few kids from a distant branch of big Lannister family which no one cared about. I would cut him some slack, perhaps kill soldiers who took part and keep him hostage/send to Wall.

[@TheLeah2344]

Jon is no better than Robb. He died as well from his dumb ass mistakes just like Robb. The only difference is that Jon was brought back to life from Melisandre.

[@curryrice9577]

4:00 "Jason Slynt?"

[@Anthonest1]

Regardless of this comparison, its obvious Robb was a much more capable military commander. Proof of such is evident in the fact that Jon lost his first and only military engagement due to him charging into battle unprepared and abandoning his entire plan. On the other hand, Robb won many astounding victories during the War of Five Kings, whilst having just as little experience on the battlefield as Jon.

[@ranica47]

Can't believe you called that ass JANOS Slynt Jason! He says his own name so often (Zlatan Ibrahimovic style :-P) it should be impossible to mispronounce it! And he regularly states that he commanded the city watch in King's Landing, hard to miss that dude. Oh ya Catelyn's name is pronounced Cat not Kate. Slán

[@WatchersPod]

+ranica47 Well, believe it. XD.

[@Celebriel82]

My counters to this are: Mistake #1: While Jon did betray his vows with Ygritte, he did still abandon her for the sake of his vows and return to the Night's Watch. (There also the argument of the letter of Jon's vow was "to take no wife and to father no children," but I accept this as a betrayal since JON felt he betrayed his vows.) Mistake #2: I really don't think that the execution of Janos compares to Karstark. Janos was seriously undermining Jon as a leader, and Jon also gave Janos several chances to actually follow his command without repercussion to which Janos publicly told him to go to hell. Mistake #3: I agree that Robb's death was from being too trusting, but I disagree that Jon's death was from the same cause. In the books, it's not Ollie (or Satin, the Ollie-like character in the books) that kills Jon. It's seasoned members of the Watch who do not like/understand the changes that Jon is making to the Watch. I think Jon's death is a result of him not listening to his "advisers" arguments against letting the Wildlings through the Wall, and just assuming that they understand what he has come to understand, that every Wilding that they let die or kill outright become soldiers in the army of the White Walkers. The seasoned members of the Watch can only see that these are the people that they have fought, killed and were killed by for generations, and their new, young Lord Commander is letting that enemy through the Wall. For many of the Night's Watch, the true reason for the wall has been forgotten and they truly believe that they are protecting the Seven Kingdoms from the Wildings, the concept of the White Walkers is still very much just a monster tale from when they were growing up. (If I am not mistaken, the men who take part in Jon's assassination are all leaders of the Watch who have not actually encountered the White Walkers for themselves.) They also do not move against him in the books until he decides to go after "Arya" at Winterfell. (And btw, here's where I actually do believe that Jon betrayed his vows as the Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the realm.) For them, this is the final straw. While they may grudgingly go along with Jon letting the Wildings through the Wall because there is evidence to support that the W.Walkers are coming, Jon going after "Arya" is him deserting his post. This action is cause for execution in the eyes of Bowen Marsh, et al.

[@raytheking2504]

Interesting videos, you have intrigued me sir

[@WatchersPod]

Glad you liked it :)

[@RedBang14]

Rob was the shit. Jon said that Rob was faster, stronger, better in every way! Jon was killed just like Rob, they kind of are the same. Their honor got them killed just like Ned. Honor gets you killed. I often wonder how bad ass Rob would have become if he wasn't betrayed.

[@sophiawilson8696]

Robb Stark swinning with sharks and didn't know it.

[@crazy_acid77]

Robb was a great king, he made one big mistake that cost him.

[@saljpal3]

You would think the son of Ned Stark would make keeping his vow a priority.

[@Jesse3beards]

"Jason Slynt" lol

[@stephenmorgan4478]

the video lost credibility with me when he said that lol

[@WatchersPod]

+Stephen Morgan really? Well if that's what you find important... It was a mistake by the guy doing the VO. But even if it wasn't, who cares.

[@ranica47]

because it was a really glaring mistake and showed a lack of attention to detail.

[@WatchersPod]

ranica47 Well it was not for lack of attention, this video had 2 people working on it, I wrote the script the guy reading made a mistake. Happens

[@Jesse3beards]

Stephen Morgan I'm not saying the video sucks for having an error, I'm just pointing out that it sounded funny. Jason sounds so incredibly out of place in the GoT universe

[@RooseveltAliWashingtonX]

I'm not crazy about this comparison. The Stark children, Jon included, couldn't be more different. Especially, Jon and Robb. The Song of Ice and Fire is rife with hidden hands. In the case of Robb Stark, Tywin Lannister had a hand in his demise. When Robb was wounded on the battlefield, Jeyne Westerling, his book wife, nursed him back to health. Guess what House is Lord over House Westerling: House Lannister. Let's be honest. At age fifteen, our blood is flooded with hormones. It would have been difficult for any teenage male, Robb, Jon, or otherwise, to resist the tempation of a young woman. Vows or no!

[@WatchersPod]

Fair enough, but I do think they are similar in a lot of ways.

[@RooseveltAliWashingtonX]

I enjoyed your video, nonetheless! Keeep them coming.

[@WatchersPod]

+LETMEC4FREE I'll try. :)

[@steelbear2063]

Is Jon any better than Robb? Well he's alive

[@JamesWillmus]

When Jon and Robb were at Winterfell, there wasn't much difference between the two. If there is any difference now, I'd say that Jon grew up, Robb didn't. Jon's become a man and Robb died a boy. That doesn't mean Jon is perfect though, he's still got a temper and an ego. Jon's simply learned that there are more important matters than his happiness. You can see it on full display through the show: Infiltrating the Wildlings to learn their plans, then risking his life to get to Castle Black Going North of the Wall again to kill the mutineers at Craster's Keep Trying to kill Mance Rayder knowing that he had little hope of succeeding Staying with the Night's watch when Stannis offers Jon the Stark name, the only thing he's wanted Going North to rescue the Wildlings, knowing that he could easily die and would definitely be seen as a traitor by the Watch Deciding to go South and rescue Winterfell from the Boltons with Sansa, even though he wanted to cut his losses and run with what family he had left Deciding to charge in alone in a desperate attempt to save Rickon Accepting the title "King in the North" despite having no desire to be a King Going South to meet Daenerys in an effort to find an ally or at least get Dragon glass Going North of the Wall to capture a wight, knowing it could easily be a disaster Going to Kings Landing to meet Cersei, knowing she could kill him in an instant And Going back to Winterfell, knowing that the war for the Dawn may very well kill him There's got to be a few more I'm forgetting, but you get the point. Either Jon Snow is really good at being a martyr, or he genuinely doesn't give two shits if he lives or dies. Based on his performance in Season 7, I'd say its most likely that Jon simply doesn't care if his lives, he's going to do the best he can and then die if need be.

[@pr0sty]

Jon didn't break any vow, it only says father no children and hold no wife. Nothing about any bootychase :)

[@WatchersPod]

I think its understood, this is why when he told them he did that everyone knew he broke the vows

[@pr0sty]

In his interpretation yes but you can see Sam argue against it! That's what I mean,

[@WatchersPod]

I think you are trying to argue semantics, yes it does not say exactly "don't fuck a woman" but everyone knows its part of what the vow entails.

[@albossman8854]

watchers pod, like they say other time things get put in a grey area, think of it like chinese whispers. they no the vows but i believe they cant fall in love for the reason if they did, they would choose their partner over protection of the wall from the whitewalkers. I no i would

[@isabba111]

I think everyone is forgetting that Jon was trying to infiltrate the wildlings, so he had to break his vows as a crow. In the beginning he had sex with Ygritte bcz of her constant teasing and to prove he is not a crow anymore bcz she was still suspicious of Jon. Even though she finds out later on and try's to kill him. Also Ygritte being the first women Jon became intimate with he eventually fell in love. In the end he still didn't forget his duty and ran away when he got the chance. Also having sex might not mean breaking vows according to different interpretations.

[@adamschwartz6918]

Jason slint? Lol it's janos slint.

[@deathstriker9076]

Robb had bad luck as far as allies. Theon, Waldur, and Roose are all snakes - while Dany and Stannis had loyal followers, Tywin was the status quo so no one was going to betray him. If Robb had people like Jorah, Tyrion, Davos, etc he would've won. The Freys would've betrayed him whether he actually married one of them or not, since they wanted to rule over the Tullys, which Robb would never agree to, so him breaking his word is a moot point IMO. He should've kept Karstark as a prisoner though.

[@elliott1996jsr]

Can we get a resurrected rob stark now the battle for the true king of the north

[@thepgawesomechannel5930]

Robb was a good man and is my favorite character. Robb was a amazing military commander and king, but he couldn't do both at the same time. All of his intentions were just, but not logical in the balance between the military and leadership. This how his mistakes lead to his horrible death. 😪

[@stevencarson2200]

Come on man, Jason Slynt...Caitlyn Stark?

[@WatchersPod]

+Steven Carson well I'm not actually the one doing the voice over and I did not want to stall this video for 2 names that were mispronounce.

[@stevencarson2200]

I would say it's interesting commentary, however, his mispronunciation of a MAJOR character brings his knowledge of the source material into question.

[@WatchersPod]

+Steven Carson it's my knowledge. I send him the script. He just messed up a couple of names.

[@wolverineftw]

I mean, the difference is that Jon had a red priestess to bring him back to life when he was betrayed and killed.