Is Rhystic Study FINALLY on the chopping block?

Phew! This was a long one.

[@bongzong9824]

I always do my best to pay the 1. But there is always a player who lets them do what ever they want.

[@RocketTheMinifig]

In my pod, we have a saying that “sometimes, you cast a card that says, in more words than not, *I win the game,*” the obvious examples are things like Moonshaker and Thunderhoof, torment of hailfire, yes, but those are expensive and require setup, but what sucks about cards like Rhystic, Dockside, even imo the fast mana artifacts, is its not immediately “I win the game” but so many times it feels like a person had that turn 3 rhystic and we just kinda go “okay, i dont even have the mana/card draw to get to/ removal to deal with this, you win, lets shuffle up and play again” its the bane of every new player when their opponent turn land -> sol rings -> arcane signets, but that requires 3 cards out of your deck to effectively “draw the nutz” (and gets significantly easier with the other fast mana rocks) meanwhile rhystic study is a 1 card “i drew the nutz” and if there are situations where if 1/99 someone has a chance to say “i win” in those early turns, to me now the time cost is not even in the “do you pay the one” as a cost on time, its a cost on time of re-shuffling up and going “i want to play a different game where this doesnt happen”

[@jojojo9240]

what do ppl have against arcane signet

[@user-mh1ij8vd2c]

“Creates a resource imbalance” By that logic Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, and Dockside should be banned. The longer I play commander the more I find myself not using blatantly powerful cards. They lack flavor and are extremely boring. Yeah I could jam Feast and Famine into every deck but there’s no flavor there, it’s just power. Deckbuilding is an art and the most fun and interesting games have decks where you know someone put effort into keeping it flavorful. But that’s just my opinion

[@xeper9458]

All resoureces are not created equal. Cards vs treasures is apples and oranges, with acyual game pieces being much more valuable than treasures

[@dittmar104]

Card draw and mana aren’t an equal exchange. Card draw is multitudes better than a one use mana rock token.

[@chokey4754]

Honestly, im tired of playing against rhystic study. Smothering tithe too, 1 card infinite combos are too much.

[@enricomassignani]

Staples are intrinsic to the game.

[@brokenvhonor7883]

Those cards should be banned. And there are people with opposite ideals. Build to win and show you are better, in turn, having fun.

[@howardhouse4543]

I would really like to know what Therese Neilson said that was so bad. I've searched, and could never find anything other than people saying "it was bad". I'm inclined to believe the whole situation was astroturfed.

[@marshallscot]

It was a witch hunt. She did nothing wrong. Terese's wife liked some "right wing" Twitter posts and that was enough to get her blacklisted.

[@WolfLink64]

Yuriko (cEDH) decks don't include Rhystic about half the time but that's a special case where the way that deck is built, 3 mana is a bit too expensive when you just need to be enabling Yuriko as much as possible.

[@BT-eo4gh]

Only people bad at the game want rhystic banned tbh

[@ProtoSkullX1]

Facts

[@clashcitycretin10]

People who are bad at the game are the ones that feed the rhystic player 20 cards and then wonder why they lost. Rhystic preys on bad players which is the vast majority of commander players

[@ProtoSkullX1]

@@clashcitycretin10 exactly

[@Sebastian-wn9rs]

Tbh is frustrating to pay the 1 twice, take my turn slowly to nullify the card..... Only for the 2 other mfs to play everything as if the card didn't exist

[@peace957]

Friend I agree with you 100% but the people who decide the bans and the people who want the card itself banned are really bad at the game. The rules committee literally only make bans for casual play and they are notoriously bad at the game lol.

[@marshallscot]

The One Ring has been similarly powerful to Rhystic Study, and is harder to remove and could fit into any deck.

[@konradwright7725]

There’s a great reasons to not play Rhystic Study 1.) It’s a known power-card, your threat level will increase once played, and asking the tax will constantly bring you into focus which is terrible for blue control players in a pod. 2.) Doesn’t fit the theme of the deck, blue likes to play spell slinger decks. Sure it’d give you more spells, but I’d rather high tide and mindspring. 3.) It’s not fun to play with for the table.

[@rnd41r]

There are great reasons to not play rhystic study, and here are the reasons that showcase why it shouldn’t be banned 1: Rhystic study is too powerful and therfore it balances itself out 2:I can name 1 specific archtype where its not used, therfore its not even that good 3: The card is so powerful that it literally changes the game These reasons mean rhystic study shouldn’t be banned

[@francisl8865]

4:00 it's also worth noting that the artist of Invoke Prejudice *is* a white supremacist

[@shonmatthew]

Was that the Sylvan Library guy?

[@francisl8865]

@@shonmatthew indeed it is, and Alabaster Potion among other things

[@Cy8erTron1x]

Guess I'm a fake blue player, I never put RS in my decks, I just find it boring.

[@donstrader]

do you have one though? If you just suddenly had one in your binder would it just stay in there or would you put it in one of your blue decks?

[@Cy8erTron1x]

@@donstrader i do, and it is in fact in my binder lol. The way my pod plays is pretty casual so I never really had a desire to use it, now that could possibly change if I was playing higher power levels at an lgs or something, but I just don't feel the need to with my friends.

[@PaulissVegan]

me too, I'm a dimir player and I can't barely play anything outside of blue decks and still hate rhystic study...

[@1206overlord]

Most people are like you bro, these guys are just salty imo

[@DrOmnipotent]

Drawing cards is boring to you?!?!?

[@sethvayda4450]

"Yeah I'd be playing whack-a-mole with the ban hammer. I've been playing commander for 12 years now and when I was younger I had almost a dozen copies of cyclonic rift and rhystic study cause I put them in every blue deck. Same with necropotence. I also had plenty of fun with dockside when he came out and smothering tithe when it came out. But I would ban every one of them. I would even ban Sol ring. The thing all these cards have in common is that they go in every single deck irrespective of the commander or the strategy. These cards that just win games on their own, are boring, repetitive, uninteresting, swingy and ultimately unfun." I just made this comment on a video of yours from two weeks ago but i thought it was more relevant here

[@thomaspetrucka9173]

Sol ring, or maybe the one ring would be my first pick. Although, with MH3, the bar's been raised by a lot.

[@Robert-vk7je]

In my playgroup "Rhystic Study" draws no cards. It just taxes. I remember when a new guy dropped a mana crypt and rhystic study turn one and got realy annoyed, because he expected to draw cards. But he didn't.

[@yugioh1870]

>Constant mists should be banned Of... all the cards... you pick that one

[@shonmatthew]

If you see someone constant mists do you and the whole table not turn and force them to burn it every single combat? Maybe my playgroup over compensates from maze of ith trauma

[@Sadisticways6453]

he lost to it once and his ass clearly hasn't healed if he's asking for that to be banned.

[@TehKorwinMikke]

@@Sadisticways6453 xD I won with Constant Mists and with Moment's Peace, never lost to them(though I run a bit too many counterspells and I love burn even more than creature combat). I heavily support banning Constant Mists. y'all are just so obsessed with win/lose, that y'all can't understand that other people aren't xD we - the normal people - simply see that certain cards produce terrible games. Doesn't matter whether we win or lose.

[@Sadisticways6453]

​@TehKorwinMikke yall just obsessed with banning cards rather than people actually slotting answer to things in their deck dumb down the player base even more feels like autism the gathering more and more with nonone running removal or counters

[@captaincrackhead904]

Or a reprint with a different effect, maybe with just creature spells to mirror esper sentinel being every non creature, or just the first card each turn

[@flaminggorilla909]

"do you pay the 1" is a trigger phrase for me.

[@jmanwild87]

Generally speaking i always phrase it as "Tell me if you're paying." And it goes a lot faster if people are studious

[@tonypatch1496]

All I’ve been hearing is bro isn’t running enough removal 🤦🤦

[@Phoenix_9624]

i think that we should have another ban list for actual power, i find myself very often not including high power cards like rhystic, dockside, smothering tide, etc, i find them so boring and i think that we should have some form of power regulation

[@samuelstenru8318]

It'd simplify rule 0 conversations if cards were categorized by power

[@THEdeadlynightshade1646]

Jesus i just must have landed in competitive hell or something i have never seen it draw more than 2 cards before ether its removed or the player is removed o.o

[@dustyfox6511]

They can pretend that they have discussions all the time. It doesn't matter if they never actually ban anything.

[@1206overlord]

Good.

[@scrumpy8192]

I’m fascinated by what they’ve spent the last decade doing.

[@mofomiko]

It insists upon itself, Lois.

[@price69420]

It's really good in cEDH because players are ultra greedy and will try to go over the top of the RS player. It's less good in casual where things can slow down and people should hopefully be running removal or interaction for enchantments like this. But because it generates so many game actions in EDH, people are just very aware of it. People just gotta slow down a touch and not be super greedy.

[@Casual_BackPacking]

lol if i dont play rystic study ill just play mana vortex , "vortex trigger please sack a land"

[@jzanedesign]

I've seen Dockside make 3-5 treasures on average in a "casual" game. I've seen Rhystic Study draw at least 5-10 cards on average in a "casual" game. you tell me what sounds worse.

[@Zachlareef]

The mana, typically in casual games people have higher average mana curves. Being able to play 2-3 extra things, let alone if one of those things copies/flickers or otherwise loops dockside, is typically stronger than a.player drawing a bunch of cards they probably won't cast at once.

[@jmanwild87]

I'd still say dockside. In casual especially in the early and mid game your bottleneck isn't cards it's having the mana to play them. And being able to play a 6 drop 3 turns early if everyone else went land signet on turn 2 and you went dockside is really strong

[@ievyer]

Dockside is far worse it’s not even close. 1. Just pay the 1 (just treat it as a stax piece where you HAVE to pay the 1) 2. Run removal Dockside HAS to be counterspelled so if you aren’t playing blue you just lose.

[@jmanwild87]

@ievyer they both have their situations where it's better as both are capable of generating massive amounts of resources. But dockside won't be miracle topdeck post Farewell if you got nothing going on. At least most of the time. Rhystic can get you a ton of card advantage if people won't or can't pay. Can't pay being the most common reason it's insane in cedh

[@mofomiko]

One is a cracked in half ritual, that needs stuff already going on on the board, he other is a huge tempo boost for the player playing it at the floor, and an ridiculous baby mode card advantage machine that wins you the game on its own. Drawing loads of cards and seeing more of your deck is what wins you the game, and its heaps more powerful than ramp. Both of them together though ... jfc gg

[@laricus3647]

Discussions like these are solved with Rule Zero. The "problem" with Rhystic Study isn't even the card, but the fact that people don't play around it. As long as you communicate as a table that you need to pay the one until you hit removal, RS is a dead card. Unlike other cards on the banlist, RS doesn't provide a guaranteed broken game-state or even any card advantage. Also, MTG is a TCG. By the nature of their design, there will always be "optimal" cards. Esper Sentinel and Mystic Remora also show a ton of play. If we were to ban every card that sees play "in every deck", then the basic suite of mana rocks would be banned which would lead to an even larger ramp disparity between non-green colors and green. It's kind of wild to me that so many people are so ban-happy when the point of Commander is a social format that lets you play the cards you really like. No one is playing Rhystic Study in other formats. Players that like RS will have nowhere to play it if banned. Players judt need to have Rule Zero conversations.

[@jmanwild87]

Hell I've been playing commander for a few years now. Played a high power game where for 3 entire turn cycles rhystic study may as well have been sphere of Resistance. Hell I've had whole games where Rhystic study drew maybe a card. The issue with rhystic is when people get greedy and don't or can't play around it. A lot of my decks by casual standards have a very low curve so i have an easier time playing around it than the dragon deck I'm facing might.

[@andrewkelly1337]

Rule 0 is itself a problem, built to be abused like any "system" that relies solely on self-enforcement/ the naive belief that people will always be open and honest in their intentions and punished if not so

[@StalkingPanda96]

First that's not rule zero at all. Rule zero is a pre game conversation about what is or isn't allowed in the game. Second all it takes is one player not agreeing for it to fall apart

[@TehKorwinMikke]

@@jmanwild87 If only those incompetent cEDHfolk knew how to play around Rhystic Study instead of mindlessly jamming it into every single deck! Don't they know that Rhystic Study sucks?

[@RocketTheMinifig]

I wholly believe that just hard mulliganing for rhystic study every game will increase any blue deck’s win rate by 25%

[@RollingCalf]

This is why i observe a personal banlist..the games were so stale with evryone running the same auto includes.

[@nickd6303]

If study is being considered then wouldn't smothering tithe be considered.

[@sordieo]

I have 2 real copies of rhystic. It took me years to finally get these copies. I would like to keep playing with the card tbh.

[@8Smoker8]

it's a toxic AF card. Homerule it if you wanna keep playing with it.

[@sordieo]

@@8Smoker8 ya we play at a friend's house high power.

[@8Smoker8]

@@sordieo to be fair I guess high power it's fine. The problem is all the people squeezing it into "7s" and more than that all the people refusing to pay the 1 and/or to run enough interaction to deal with it. But it's an insanely strong card, and overall very underrated DESPITE being recognized as strong.

[@PressXtoDoubt]

​@@8Smoker8I think Rhystic Study is a "7" level card. I think you only start creeping into 8/9/10 when you play free mana shit like Gaia's Cradle, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb etc.

[@8Smoker8]

@@PressXtoDoubt then it has no place in the game. But also no, those are CEDH not just 8s.

[@rebellion700]

People are crazy for thinking this card needs banning, but I play in high power with people that treat rhystic as a stack piece. Always pay the 1 unless doing so would prevent you winning the game or preventing an opponents win. It demands removal. Get good bros

[@StalkingPanda96]

I can't control my opponents not playing around it. All I can do is argue with them that they should. And everyone loves table arguments and accusations of playing wrong

[@cjh.1920]

Stasis and storm cauldron are my #1 most infuriating cards

[@andthereIwas]

I think it definitely requires a removal spell in game. Reserve that removal spell for it and they lose that advantage. I always put tons of removal spells in my decks for good reason. I feel satisfied removing cards like this and mana rocks from the field. Don't skip on that removal lol

[@orgicell]

Imo the isseu is that there are no distinction between Edh and Cedh... futhermore if wizards had any sense they would take back ownership of EDH/Cedh rules and get on with the program and would create a rotating format in EDH... this would allow for tourneys and prizes that would be accessible to all in different formats. but hey.... to each their own.

[@Dexwin09]

by that logic (card advantage and slows down the game) a lot of cards fit that description as well. plus the good old classic saying, it dies to removal.

[@alogamerp11]

I just bought a copy of rhystic come on

[@__-nd5qi]

I you lose to rhystic study then I don’t even know what to say at what point do we need to stop holding your hand?

[@StalkingPanda96]

I can't control my opponents not playing around it. All I can do is argue with them that they should. And everyone loves table arguments and accusations of playing wrong

[@jackmcnally8706]

While I certainly wouldn’t be opposed to a Rhystic Study ban, I feel like there are quite a few cards that need to go before it. Dockside is the number one ban I want to see (2 mana you win the game), but there are a few others, mainly Jeweled Lotus, the commander free spells, and Thassa’s Oracle. I’d also like to see Smothering Tithe gone but that one probably isn’t strong enough to justify it, I just hate it xD.

[@mymarshlands]

its interesting that rhystic study can be anything between "spells your opponents cast cost {1} more to cast" and "whenever an opponent casts a spell, draw a card" if everyone agrees to always pay the 1, it becomes a pretty unimpressive stax piece... the problem is a lot of times people don't wanna do that 😅

[@dustinfindsrocks]

I think it’s kind of silly to call for a ban. Card is really good but there’s LOTS of really good cards. It’s 1 of 99. There will probably be at least half of the games it’s never played unless the game goes really long 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@aidan8578]

nonsensical. every card you aren’t tutoring as part of a combo is “one of 99” and won’t be seen every game. the games where rhystic study does get drawn and played are worse for it, that’s the relevant metric.

[@shonmatthew]

I love playing with and around powerful and unique effects, I'd always want my opponents to play the cards they want and limiting card options seems bad to me. Commander has always been rather cracked as a format and if you want to diversify the format by pulling staples that's fine, but kinda lame to me. With rhystic it can/will speed up the game if people are just going to not pay. If the opponents dont note paying 1 whenever they cast a spell just shortcut and draw the card. Then again I'd be fine with the og mox and timevault being legal so maybe im the wrong person to signpost bans since that vaguely covers whatever rule 0 stuff.

[@__-nd5qi]

Bargain is 10/15 cards on turn way better than 15 overtime

[@rsmith524]

Yawgmoth's Bargain is just way more powerful than Rhystic Study. Paying three mana for potentially 10+ cards over a few turns to grind out enough advantage to win is not on the same level as paying six mana to draw up to 39 cards immediately and win the same turn.

[@TehKorwinMikke]

COMMENT TO HOPEFULLY IMPROVE ENGAGEMENT Because you have correct opinions.

[@jordanspier234]

Everyone they need to ban basic lands, if you look mountains are in 91% of the decks it’s can be played in. Must be so powerful if it’s in that high of a percentage

[@1206overlord]

Wait till you hear about islands

[@EnderPryde]

Surprisingly, your numbers are way off. Basics are only in something like 25% of cEDH decks anymore because they're just not good enough :S

[@jordanspier234]

@@EnderPryde surprising how so? I never said cedh. That’s surprising you assumed I meant cedh. I simply looked up the card called “Mountain” on edhrec, not cedhrec and stated the stats on that page, just like the video creator did. Rekt

[@stephanesi5851]

Stop sarcasm. You speak about mountain to compare rhystic study and you speak about idiot ? Hahaha we can taste the salt of your tears.

[@EnderPryde]

​@@jordanspier234 because if it isn't seeing play in CEDH, "being in X% of decks" is a meaningless statistic. For example, Mana Crypt is in only 11% of decks in non-cEDH, but is in like 95% of cEDH decks. The latter is generally a better indicator of power level than the former.

[@adoo765]

I can take the card is boring, sometimes you cant pay the 1 or remove it, but bring up the artist as a reason to ban it was a very low move, there is a new on on the last jumpstart set.

[@thesaurusakasickakatheomc7688]

I feel like every reason you cited why you believe Rhystic Study should be banned applies to The Wise Mothman (and a bunch of other cards, tbh), so unless we're banning a bunch of other stuff (which, to be fair, I would probably get behind), I don't see any reason to ban Rhystic Study. The real problem is there's a serious lack of consistency as to what is and isn't banned. That's what creates all the salt. When the RC is so hands off, people will, as you say, feel forced to play all the best cards.

[@davidcrain453]

My playgroup is awesomely toxic if one of us starts crying we immediately target that person out of the game we shrug and go you know the rule it's hilarious and it teaches not to be douchey about the GAME we are all here to enjoy. One thing that is important though is easily grabbing a different deck after stomping us out with something mean. We all catch wins very consistently if it's only a couple games sometimes someone will sweep the night but other nights is other people I'd say it's pretty healthy at my table. Tournaments could stipulate top rs or dse bans specifically if they want to. I'd support that over bans....

[@cjwauer4730]

I choose not to play Rhystic Study in casual. It’s too oppressive when in my hands.

[@lettuce2740]

Ok I don’t like that Sensei’s top comparison because at the same time that goes for any tax effect. Sometimes people have to be reminded of a Thalia on the battlefield and while the difference is Rhystic is permissive and Thalia is not, it really isn’t much different. Sensei’s Top is an activated ability that you can do at any point where Rhystic is a bit more predictable and quicker to resolve. Sensei’s requires you to look at 3 cards and rearrange them, while Rhystic asks a yes or no and draws a card. If you are not a player who doesn’t mind playing with it then ask people to play decks without it or swap it out. No one is making you play against it in casual commander. I don’t get the argument for “you cannot play it casually”. Not all cards are designed for casual play and that is by no means a reason for a ban.

[@redspace597]

Just pay the one smh. If it needed a ban then i think all enchantments that call to force players to pay extra mana need banned too.

[@stillwellstillhere1374]

But I play with 2 other goofs who refuse to. 🤣

[@wesleymclain9146]

@@stillwellstillhere1374 Skill issue on their part tbh XD

[@StalkingPanda96]

And their skill issue is losing me the game. I can't control my opponents and make them pay, all I can do is call their plays bad and ask them to reconsider. Yay arguments

[@SlavicHavoc]

Just the fact that "Terese Neilsen art" is being brought up at all immediately invalidates any opinion that follows. Honestly, if they split the format, they should leave EDH alone and separate the casual players into their own little kiddie pool.

[@DrOmnipotent]

Ive held this stance for the past couple years the Rhystic is the most bannable card by a country mile(after Mind Goblin tbh). Whether it *should* be banned is a different question for me, but the issues the card has at all levels of play are very real. I do think that wotc has likely figured out the card is a problem so a real part of me would like to see how they balance future card design/answers around it. I think wizard's can design themselves out of it being the terror that it is but that would have to have some targeted designs.

[@wesleymclain9146]

Mind Goblin combos with Deez Nuts. A+B wincon. Broken as hell. Instaban.

[@bjoernlund85]

same problem with smothering tithe, no one pays 2, thats obscene ramp, of course its a "white card" but its so tiering for every one with the trigger and power of this card. trouble in pairs is much better designed. The One ring is also a card i just dont want to see, just flicker it and your immortal if they cannot win with other strategys.

[@Sona_Buvelle]

You sound like someone who has lost one too many times to a player who plays Rhystic Study. The whole video comes off less as a discussion piece and more like a salt video. You said it checks every reason that the RC bans cards, then later said well actually not these reason, but later than that still kept saying it gets checked by every reason. Also, RS being stronger than Dockside or Crypt!? Now I KNOW this is a bad faith take. Crypt lets you play turns ahead of your opponents. Dockside can give you game winning turns for two mana, even in casual games (which nobody should be playing Dockside at a casual table to begin with). Like, Study isn't this monster card you're trying to make it out to be. I'm not saying it's not a strong card. It's very strong. You're definitely overselling it though. Quick question: do you or your playgroups not run interaction? I don't think bouncing effects, counter magic, and Naturalize type effects are very niche. It's stuff your deck should be running in the first place. Pay the 1! And then Assassin's Trophy it! Naturalize it. Feed the Swarm it. Disenchant it. Blue has no shortage of effects that bounce target permanent or counter target spell. If you're playing mono red, then I can empathize a little. Outside of Red E Blast, Pyroblast, and Tibalt's Trickery, mono red doesn't get a lot of answers to enchantments. Player removal works tho ;) Look, I get if you don't like the card, but don't try to make it out like it defines the meta of EVERY table. Also, this is why converstaions between players need to happen more. It's one thing if a player plays Study while the other three are playing precons, that's a problem player. That's not Rhystic Study's fault. If everyone is playing a deck of relatively similar levels, it's not the Rhystic Study's fault if players aren't paying the 1 or don't run interaction. Also also, how does drawing 15 cards add one minute per card to the game? Drawing 15 cards only *adds* that much time to the game is if that player is new to that deck or just doesn't know what they're doing. I'm just hoping that comment was exageration/hyperbole.

[@jmanwild87]

I played a pretty high power commander game where a will scion of peace deck played rhystic study. Despite being there from turn 3 it didn't draw cards until turn 6 and Despite drawing a load of cards off of it. The will player couldn't keep his commander on board leaving a bunch of high cost cards stranded in his hand. He lost that game because he was facing 2 grixis decks (myself and another player) that just countered his wincons. Card advantage does not matter if you're unable to use the cards

[@bruvaroni]

Why are we even having the discussion about this card when thassa's oracle and underworld breach exist?

[@nicolaskerenski5294]

Because those actually win games and do not just "spin the wheels". They do not really waste the most precious resource: Lifetime. Same reason Paradox Engine got banned if i remember correctly. Oracle wins or does basically nothing and Breach is either a win or a oneshot recursion like Yawgmoth's Will.

[@jmanwild87]

Because the casual players don't play Thoracle and underworld breach cedh lines. The ban list isn't for cedh. Honestly I'm shocked cedh doesn't have its own ban list because even if it's just commander at its strongest. The way the meta of the format is dominated by Thoracle and breach strategies sort of makes its desire to be a competitive format odd

[@franslair2199]

​@@jmanwild87honestly it's funny because cedh players asked flash to be banned because of flash hulk lines but apparently consultation thoracle is okay

[@scrumpy8192]

@@nicolaskerenski5294a bad game absolutely does waste everyone’s time. And ubiquitous overpowered win cons can lead to bad metas and bad games.

[@1996BlueMan]

@@franslair2199Thoracle and Breach are sorcery speed. FlashHulk is instant speed. You play Thoracle and Consult, the counter war happens, I pay 2 mana at instant speed to win on top of your win, even though the win is right there on the stack.

[@Tkellz62]

Just don't be greedy and pay the 1.

[@stephanesi5851]

No.

[@StalkingPanda96]

I can't control my opponents not playing around it. All I can do is argue with them that they should. And everyone loves table arguments and accusations of playing wrong

[@shxchiy]

Nobody asked, but I'll give my two pennies about this (kinda): The problem with Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora, Cyclonic Rift, Fierce Guardianship, Deflecting Swat, Mana Crypt and others is that they pretty much make the existence of a plethora of cards null. There is not a single instance where you have a chance to play these cards, but will say “nah, this doesn’t work in my deck”. Some people say that blue is “the intelligent color”, but by seeing how many blue cards are splashable and don’t even have fair competition, is it really true? Of course, there are splashable card in all colors, but blue is striking blatant. After all this rant: nah, I don’t think Rhystic Study should get banned.

[@EnderPryde]

I'm not quite convinced it "needs" to be banned, but from a cursory glance, it shows up in like 98% of cEDH blue decks. That in-and-of itself is not an issue, plenty of non-problematic cards see higher usage in cEDH. Mystic Remora, Force of Will, and Cyclonic Rift as just three examples in Blue. *But* I think being a staple in cEDH is a reasonable first-pass litmus test for whether it's healthy for the format - Griselbrand is banned from EDH for similar "there's no reason not to run it in decks it's legal in". So the next question becomes if the card is game-centralizing when played, rather than just a good card. And I'm... not quite sure myself. Repeated card draw that depends on opponents actions is a bit hard to quantify, but if you're spending 3 mana and over the course of the game it's generating hundreds of mana in value for you (or dozens of card draws), I think that starts to tip into "overly centralizing" Even in its worst case, it is typically a 3 mana cantrip that absorbs critical removal in cEDH: Rhystic Study comes down, someone tries to destroy it, counterspell-war ensues, Rhystic Study player draws cards to replace their lost card advantage from counterspells because one or more of the players failed to pay the tax during the war.

[@Abby_Affchen]

I'm a CEDH player. Ban dockside, thoracle, and bowmasters for CEDH. It won't hurt casual players but it'll help make the metagame less stale for tournaments. Rhystic study is a amazing card should it be banned? In cedh I think after the 3 I want banned are banned we should think of banning rhystic.

[@miomio1901]

the card is super busted, but honestly how is it so bad it should be banned? in most games i see it, i draw more cards with like guardian project, great henge and stuff due to people having enough mana to pay for it start banning fast mana, then ban stuff that gets REALLY broken due to that. blue was supposed to have the best carddraw but its not so much infront of green and way behind black lol

[@Zachlareef]

The slowing the game down as an argument to ban something isn't a very compelling argument to ban cards, and using examples of bans in constructed formats with timed 50 minute rounds isn't a direct comparison.

[@TheDestroya88]

I could tell you why I think it’s compelling. I think that there is a certain amount of time I want to spend in a game, and certainly there is only a certain amount of time I’m willing to wait on other decks. I posit It only takes some critical mass of these time consuming cards to make a game too long to tolerate. I think it’s very reasonable to say that at some point a single card is taking too much time at the table. Like theoretically if playing a single card added 20 minutes to a game I would ban that card immediately. Idk how much time cards like rhystic study take but something like scramble verse I think would be in the running for a ban.

[@Zachlareef]

@@TheDestroya88 I'd wager having to read and/or explain the text on the majority of cards printed in the last 5 years adds more time to a game than Rhystic Study. And while I understand not wanting to play a single game all day, there's a difference in argument between only being allocated 50 minutes to play a best 2 out of 3 round by an official, and players' personal ideas of what makes a game too long. Because of how different that threshold is going to be from person to person, having a card be banned for that reason isn't too compelling. Especially since rule 0 already exists to address more personal concerns for your individual pod.

[@TheDestroya88]

@@Zachlareef it seems like we are approaching the ban list from a couple different angles. I understand how personal opinions may differ on what is too long and that rule 0 would cover this so to you it makes it uncompelling, but I’m not talking about personal pods I’m speaking in the context of pickup games of edh and how the ban list affects those pickup games. I thought the purpose of the ban list in edh is to signpost what kind of stuff is discouraged so I think that a ban based off time constraints would fit on the ban list very nicely. Cause of how I think that sends a strong message I find a ban compelling.

[@andrewkelly1337]

Anything that prolongs the game to the degree of "every single spell in the game gets an interactive trigger now" should not be allowed. Fuck you if you bought that card, I hope you feel like you wasted the money since you clearly enjoy wasting other people's time.

[@marshallscot]

A commander game going longer than an hour and a half is agonizing.

[@PaulissVegan]

People will hunt down these things even more. the more rare and forbidden something is, the more appealing it is. So they don't want specific art in their game and somehow punish the artist but in the end, they bring even more attention to it. I'd like to see Rhystic banned nevertheless.

[@yubeluchiha]

It sounds like y’all play pad is slow all you have to do is just ask if you pay the 1 or not for the rest of the game Yes, no, maybe?

[@P4r4k]

RS is a stax card and you should treat it like one when facing it. If we're considering banning RS, we should consider banning Smokestack, Back to basics, etc... Dockside is a much bigger problem imo because it's so easy to combo with it, and even with no combo the mana acceleration is absurd, which itself could be corrected by Wizards updating Treasures to have "this token enters the battlefield tapped".

[@toddpacker1015]

Flickering, copying and reanimating Dockside kills me inside

[@Asmith218]

Its not stronger than the power 9 or library. Can rhystic draw more cares at a better rate than ancestral, yes, but it is spread over time not a burst of cards. its like saying immolation shaman is better than lightning bolt because instead of three damage for 1 it does an indeterminate amount of damage for 2. The library is way more problematic is that its colorless and a permanent type that is way tougher to destroy since most players rarely run more than one or two pieces of nonbasic land destruction if any at all. Rhystic is not a card I relish seeing by any stretch of the imagination but there are three other players at the table that should have the capability to remove it and until it can be removed work together to limit the draws the controller recieves. I view it more as a tax/stax that preys on poor play more akin to a thalia or archon of emmeria than a card engine par excellence. I think a big part of the problem outside of its cost is the fact that its an enchantment which some colors strugle with removing. if rhystic was a 1/2 creature with this ability we'd be having a much different discussion about it.

[@tristenbezayiff571]

the commity shouldnt be dedicated to banning the fun out of the game

[@andrewkelly1337]

If you think Rhystic Study is fun, you're the kind of player that needs to be banned out of the game

[@tristenbezayiff571]

@andrewkelly1337 yeah it is, maybe this isn't the hobby for you

[@andrewkelly1337]

@@tristenbezayiff571 weird how like 95+% of the cards in the history of the game are designed for players like me and *not* for min/maxing try hards, and 99% the cards that get banned are banned because they're abused by min/maxing try hards

[@tristenbezayiff571]

@@andrewkelly1337 there not ussaly banned for being good. either they are so good whole formats devolve into just them or they are so oppressive they shut down decks entirely. rhystic is good when your oppenents dont run removal, dont pay the one, or dont have a counter spell. hell the logic in the vid also include removing things like blood moon, and winter orb way before rhystic.

[@wesleymclain9146]

@@andrewkelly1337 Nah, drawing cards is the most fun part of the game.

[@Raghetiel]

Rhystic fraws A LOT against combo and spell-slinger decks, and if they are casting a lot, you're probably loosing. Against average decks, it gives you 3-4 cards per rotation. It is a lot, but not unbeatable. But more often, its just annoying. And such tax effects always will be. So no, i don't think Rhystic study should be banned. Dockside maybe should, but what definitely needs to be banned is oracle of thassa. That wincon is just dumb, as there's too many ways to empty your deck, and not enough ways to stop it.

[@StoneSourFanBoy]

There are two arguments that are false in this discussion : 1) you have to play it. You don't. You can build your deck the way you want it. Playing without sol ring for a year now and there is no downside for doing so. If those people think like "if other people may run it, I have to be as toxic as they are and be a normy" I think that the card is not the problem. 2) The card is too powerful. There is an 3 mana blue aoe that asks people to sacrifice a permanent for each creature they control if they don't pay 1 (can't remember the name) and it's not played at all. Rhystic asks the same type of thing but rather than you going down a resource, you give one to your opponent. People are not playing around it correctly and then crying about it. Again, not a card problem. The card has problems, don't get me wrong, the fact that it's not a positive addition to any game you'll play is something to consider, but let's not use points that are relying on people not playing the game using all their options.

[@mattcampbell4150]

rhystic says "when an opponent casts a spell draw a card" or "opponents spells cost 1 more to cast" both are too good for 3 mana. card is boring to play with and against. its a 3 mana enter the infinite. in the same way smothering tithe and dockside are 4 and 2 mana omniscience respectively. ONLY people who play these cards defend them.

[@marshallscot]

Terese Nielsen didn't even say anything controversial. Her and her wife (yes she is a lesbian) liked some right wing twitter posts. That was enough for the hate mob to come down on her and effectively get her blacklisted from any future MTG illustrating. It's honestly sad and pathetic because her art is without a doubt some of the best in the game's history. I go out of my way to get her artwork whenever I'm buying singles, and she has a website for anyone that wants to support her livelihood directly.

[@StalkingPanda96]

TIL lesbians are immune to right wing reactionary propaganda and can do no wrong

[@jmanwild87]

Rhystic study is incredibly strong but it should not be banned. The saying don't feed the fish with Mystic Remora applies to study as well. Slowing down the game can be mitigated by your opponents volunteering the information before you ask. There's plenty of cards that should go in every deck of X color should they also be banned. Rhystic study is way weaker than bargain because RS doesn't guarantee that you're drawing a bunch of cards. Yawgmoth's bargain is always going to draw you a bunch of cards because even if you play it and someone Disenchants it right away you can still draw 20 cards. With study you can have someone disenchant it. Pay 1 and Rhystic study did nothingbut be a tax effect on one spell. The floor is so low if your opponents are playing right. Not to mention There's plenty of cases where the mountain of card advantage doesn't matter because the cards are just rotting in the opponent's hand. Hard to interact with? Every player sans mono red has access to in color removal for it and colorless options. Insurmountable resource advantage is only if people don't pay and even then it can be surmounted if the table puts aside their grievances to handle the study player if they can't always pay. Required to play? I have plenty of blue decks with so many other sources of card advantage that i don't feel like i need it Constant mists should be banned? Non combat wincons are plentiful and you can just force the constant mists player to use it until they can't

[@StalkingPanda96]

I can't control my opponents not playing around it. All I can do is argue with them that they should. And everyone loves table arguments and accusations of playing wrong

[@loicboucher-dubuc4563]

maybe just get better. Just because new players can't manage to realize the card is a threat doesn't mean the card needs to be banned. Also, comparing it with Yawgmoth's Bargain and Library of Alexandria is insane. The Bargain lets you draw your deck the very turn it is played, which most likely results in an immediate win, while Rhystic is delayed draw and it's completely up to your opponents whether they let you draw or not. Library of Alexandria cannot be countered and is super hard to remove, it costs no mana, and doesn't prompt your opponents to pay 1 to cancel the effect. It's not even close.

[@MikeJones-xg2bm]

Rule zero is so simple.

[@StalkingPanda96]

Rule zero rhystic study with randoms and see how many games you get of people willing to change their deck to play with you.

[@allejosuperstar]

My shit opinion, and yes, nobody ask for. Rhystic Study is NOT a card draw enchantment, it's more likely a stax, so if you draw a lot of cards, your opponents are playing wrong. The card needs to be ban? Maybe, but not now. For example, Thassa's Oracle and Dockside Extorsionist is far more concerning at this moment.

[@clashcitycretin10]

Playing my absolute Tightest and losing the game because someone else fed the rhyatic player 15 cards is the reason that i cant view edh as a real competitive format. Its too much to be responsible for myself and for others.

[@jordanspier234]

Card banning is more annoying the more people ask for things to be banned. Why not ban any stax effects, slows the game down, causes resource imbalances, etc. let people play the way they want to play. Tired of seeing a card played? Removal and counterspells are a thing.

[@EnderPryde]

"Just play removal and counterspells" This is short-sighted logic for Rhystic Study in particular. It runs headlong into issues of tempo loss in 4 player games being worse than in 2 player: If I cast Naturalize to destroy the Tutor (and paid the 1 to prevent the card draw) that means I've lost 3 mana for this round on the table, the person who played the Tutor lost 3 mana on the round playing the Tutor, but the other two players didn't lose any mana on the round, and now have a tempo advantage because of it - I'm actively helping someone else win, rather than advancing my own victory. So it's typically just better to not let it hit the board at all, or to just not pay for directed removal and instead do board sweeps. *But* I also glossed over how Mystic Tutor is itself Blue, so it's going to have its own counterspell package to support it, and force more spells on the stack via counterspell wars, increasing the likelyhood of getting it to draw you cards. Mystic Remora creates a mexican standoff for the other players at the table, while reaping most of the rewards.

[@jordanspier234]

@@EnderPryde how is it short-sighted? If you have removal and paid the one like you said you lost 3 mana sure, which means they paid 3 mana to draw no cards right? Wouldn’t it be more fair if someone paid 3 mana for a card draw to at least give them 2 cards before removing it? Also what is blue known for besides counter-spells and mill? That’s right card draw. This format isn’t a tournament sanctioned format. Banning is overbearing cause in any play group you guys can collectively state which cards you guys don’t want to be played. If you’re someone playing competitively or like to play commander night at an LGS how is someone putting themselves in a better spot to win hurting the game? Do you want a game to take 2-3 hours?

[@EnderPryde]

​@@jordanspier234because, as elaborated on, it's a neg-3 on mana to go 1 for 1. And while there are no wotc sanctioned tournaments, there *are* cedh tournaments held at official events - and you can't just rule zero a card away you don't like at those sorts of events

[@jordanspier234]

@@EnderPryde you’re then playing at a tournament and should have expectations of what people will be running as meta.

[@RowinMarkov]

Rhystic study... pay the one, and run enchantment removal. The card isnt even actually good if you play around it.

[@StalkingPanda96]

I can't control my opponents not playing around it. All I can do is argue with them that they should. And everyone loves table arguments and accusations of playing wrong

[@TehKorwinMikke]

you should tell that to cEDH players xD they will look so silly once they learn that Rhystic Study is a bad card, because they add it to like all the blue decks.

[@MisterZalem]

*talks about rhystic study clogging the game* >me looking at my spellslinger deck "......" yeah clogging the game is what it is doing. just let the controller before hand you aint paying for it-then deck them by playing buyback cards.

[@Badassest]

Dockside and jeskas will please

[@weeklyworldviews432]

1) Saying that Rhystic Study is even comparable in power Yawgmoth's Bargain, let alone claiming it's better, makes anything you have to say on this topic come across as just pointless complaining. That is such an outlandish claim that it's hard to take anything you have to say seriously. 2) I don't think a card should be banned because people don't play around them correctly. If everyone just pays the 1 then Rhystic Study is not an issues, and only really powerful in higher level cEDH games. You would never suggest a ban on Sphere of Resistance or Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, but Rhystic Study is often just a one-sided version of those cards if people just play around it correctly, which can be done very easily. It's a huge problem if people just ignore it, but that's true of so many cards that if that's a criteria for banning you will end up banning half of the format.

[@Alice-rz6zi]

LETS GOOOOOOOO

[@dwallert]

We shouldn't ban cards that are intellegent includes. It is ubiquitous, which is problematic, but that is only because people don't destroy it. Blow it up! It doesn't have hexproof. It dies to like a 1000 plus spells. If it is that dangerous, isn't it worthy of removal? Don't ban cards because players are too stupid to remove it! Further, drawing cards doesn't always translate to wins. Often yes. But it is not even a win con in and of itself. People complain about the format yet refuse to build intellegent decks that interact with other decks. You know what else slows down game play? Interaction. Rhystic study forces interaction. Want something to ban? Drannith Magistrate. Wanna make people stop playing edh? Play a game where drannith sits there for 5 turns and the other players cannot access their commanders, the entire point of the format!

[@leverposteifantomet]

Claiming Rhystic Study is more powerful than Yawgmoths Bargain is absurd in my opinion. Your opponents can control whether or not to let you draw cards with Rhystic Study. It's like comparing thoughtseize to an effect that lets your opponents choose what they discard. Yes, it does slow the game down, but nowhere near what Sensei's top did in modern and legacy. If you find it that troublesome, may I suggest proposing to have it banned in your playgroup, because in my playgroup it really is not that problematic, since we usually just pay the 1, and are able to look past the wurmcoil engine when assessing who is the threat.

[@matthewcarlson2747]

I think your argument sounds bias. That being said, it should probably be banned because of the constant trigger nagging, which slows down the game. I think players should run enchantment removal. Players should just interact with it. Adapt and overcome.

[@fluffysideup205]

I have no issue with rhystic study. Your point about it slowing the game is mute. If drawing cards makes people more likely to win the game, then wouldn't it actually speed up the game? There are much worse cards like winter orb, and anything that does the same type of thing. Anything that makes you pay to attack. You're basically arguing for any card played in control decks to be banned. Yea, i hate these and definitely agree with winter ord like effects needing to be banned, but nothing else is really that serious. Infinite card combos and swords also inhibit player expression and provide too much advantage. There's so much in this format that can qualify for any number of the reasons you stated.

[@fluffysideup205]

Also "do you pay the one" is a sentence that takes less than a second to say. If they spend forever thinking if they want to or not, that is a personal problem for them.

[@laughingskuls7000]

I would be surprised if the RC does anything. I think at this point all they do is vaguely gesture to rule 0. They won't ban a card especially one with such high reprint equity for wotc as rhystic studies.

[@babaganoush4046]

Ban orcish, dockside, and rhystic for the love of god

[@FranciscoFerreira-oq6em]

This video comes from the most noob angle possible but yeaa

[@Casual_BackPacking]

i just spent 30 on rystic study please dont ban it i just started cammander and i like drawing cards

[@liammanning8334]

Study is fine. If it's not in your playgroup it sounds like a playgroup problem and they shouldn't be banning things because certain playgroups don't play responsibly.

[@kevin_Masters]

Lets not take the original too serious. If the format was created today the list would look a lot different. Rhystic study is just a Thalia for all spells. It’s a great card for people to learn about the difference between tempo en mana advantage. Not every card should be beginner / Timmy friendly. Commander is a inherent broken format and pretending to ban 1 card to fix it is hilarious. Further if you want to start banning cards to fix the format.

[@GabrielMateusLima]

This doesn't make any sense, it's a casual format, rule 0 exists for this. We should play anything that our playgroup allow. Bans on a casual format doesn't make sense. cEDH should be a different format, and they have more powerful cards to worry about.

[@DarkDiamondInc]

Only shit players would complain about rhystic study. Also learn to maintain your own banlist with your friends. Thats the whole point of commander. Like, it straight up is just a skill issue if you have a problem with it.

[@StalkingPanda96]

I can't control my opponents not playing around it. All I can do is argue with them that they should. And everyone loves table arguments and accusations of playing wrong

[@leder609]

Uuummmm, I didn’t trade and buy certain cards for them to be banned later on. Ban one ring, ban dockside, ban black market, ban smothering tithe. I JUST started upping the power levels of my decks to match my play groups.

[@supercard9418]

Banning a card because of the art is fucking stupid. And the problem with Rhystic is because people are idiots----just pay the damn 1. You hate Rhystic? Pay the damn 1.

[@stephanesi5851]

Ok...Be a slave if you want and pay ! 😂

[@andrewkelly1337]

You like Rhystic? Go play a fucking single player game so you can get your sick kicks wasting a bot's time instead of that or your fellow human being. So instead of being a dumbass, stop hating the game and liking bad cards that oppose the spirit of it.

[@27777BigRedBarn]

Man, idk who you play with but maybe play with some different players. Just have a conversation with people if you don’t want to play with certain cards. I have four decks with blue in them and play Rhystic in 1 of them. I don’t think they should ban anything. I think people should be more open and honest about what they want to play and what experience they want to get out of the games.

[@ryanwoolery5258]

Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are far worse

[@basedmatt3459]

cyc rift should catch a ban before rhystic study.

[@mattwaters3187]

I stopped listening the moment he said it draws more cards than any blue. Consecrated sphinx makes rhystic study look like a poor joke. Rhysic is purely a skill check. When it hits the table pretend it says "your spells cost 1 more" like any other stax piece that's not even remotely bannable and it does nothing. Bad players make rhystic good.

[@StalkingPanda96]

I can't control my opponents not playing around it. All I can do is argue with them that they should. And everyone loves table arguments and accusations of playing wrong

[@agrocreepers7710]

we should not be banning card because the art is quote "problematic art" because if we did we should have let magic die in its conception

[@xeper9458]

My thoughts exactly. How about WOTC stop being so cheap and commission some new art for the cards banned because of the so called "prob;ematic art"

[@andrewkelly1337]

Bro you wanna play the racist cafd so bad wtf is your deal

[@agrocreepers7710]

@@andrewkelly1337 perceptions are very key idk about you but not long ago the concept of magic itself would have been a point of contention of equal or greater consequence

[@scrumpy8192]

@@agrocreepers7710 you’re saying the concept of magic is as subjectively bad as racism if not worse? Idiotic comment.

[@andrewkelly1337]

@@agrocreepers7710 bro your empty rhetoric doesn't affect me. In fact your willingness to devolve into "well everything is relative" word salad has me 100% convinced you're only upset about people banning the racist card.

[@wesleymclain9146]

It would be pointless to split casual and cEDH. Because I could still build a cEDH deck with casual cards. There will always be a "best deck" or "tier 1 decks". They might be lower power, but they'd still be competitive even using a casual banlist. Rhystic Study says "Spells your opponents cast cost {1} more to cast." Don't know what you're talking about with it drawing cards. It usually one for ones removal in games I play. Your playgroup is incredibly irresponsible if you drew over 20 cards. That means they cast at least 20 spells and didn't remove it. When playing with a cEDH mindset, Mystic Remora far outclasses Rhystic Study for the mana investment. Drawing 3 cards off a turn 1 Remora isn't terribly uncommon; this makes it on par with Ancestral Recall. Rhystic would have to draw 9 cards to be that good. But realistically, it shouldn't stick around that long. Rhystic Study is NOT better than Yawgmoth's Bargain as it requires your opponents to be doing things in game. Bargain only asks that you have life. Rhystic might draw you 20 cards over the course of 3 turn cycles, but Bargain can draw you 20 cards instantly. The card velocity is what makes Bargain so much better. Rhystic is not a "win out of nowhere" card. It has to stick around to generate value and while it's around, people should be evaluating it as a threat. Peer into the Abyss is a "win out of nowhere" card because it draws 40 cards for 7 mana. And like you said, it doesn't technically prevent your opponents from playing. It doesn't require narrow responses when everyone is running Beast Within, Counterspell, Generous Gift, Feed the Swarm (the second most played mono black card in EDH after only Demonic Tutor which lets you effectively play 2), and Chaos Warp. These responses to it aren't narrow. Swords to Plowshares is narrow because it only hits creatures. Saying Rhystic is worse than Black Lotus is a bit disingenuous. It's by no means better than the best ritual ever printed. A 5 mana white-blue Rhystic study would NOT be played in every white-blue deck; especially when it comes to a cEDH mindset. Yes, it's still good but at 5 mana, it's far easier to just win the game outright. TLDR Rhystic Study is not worth banning. There are far more egregious cards like Dockside that should be banned first. However, I still don't think Dockside deserves a ban as it is self-policed in casual and also just lower powered in casual.