Is Romantasy Ruining Fantasy? A Subgenre Deep Dive

[@LoreGeist]

Any good Romantasy recommendations?

[@Stephnbeans]

One Dark Window duology I think is a good blend of fantasy and romantasy. I also enjoyed Swordheart- T Kingfisher is a fantastic writer and dabbles in different genres. I haven’t been able to immerse myself in most mainstream romantasy though, but if you want a soft intro into romantasy, I’d suggest Elise Kova’s Married to Magic series- her books I read for pure escapism.

[@LoreGeist]

@@Stephnbeans thanks!

[@TakruTori]

@LoreGeist Penny Dreadful (warning it's contains nudity).

[@aix83]

Everything T Kingfisher, especially the Clockwork Boys duology and the Paladins series. (Her horror is very nice too.) She has healthy relationships and very quirky fantasy.

[@miguelthedrawtist]

The books by @lidiyafoxgloveauthor are pretty cool. You can check out her stuff

[@TheEclecticGoat]

Two issues with the genre: 1) it’s used as way to abuse writers. Some of the most popular “authors” are actually underpaid authors churning out chapters of enforced tropes on miserable deadlines. 2) toxic relationships: you mentioned this briefly, but it’s BAD. Girls are growing up with visions of older, predatory men being normal. Boys are growing up thinking that they are always expected to meet the “master” role. There are exceptions - the Anita Blake series has men in both dominant and submissive roles - but the large majority picture women as passive recipients and brats. The relationships are constantly full of drama and intensity.

[@LoreGeist]

Really? These big recent names are underpaid? Yeah the expectations about the male body and male behaviour are insane on these as well. I guess men have been doing this to women for a while now but I’m not sure the way do fix the issue is to do the same 😅

[@SAArcher]

I don't feel that romantacy is a sub genre of fantasy, but rather a sub genre of romance. It is a romance with fantasy decor. Just like western romances are romances with cowboys, and not cowboy fiction with romance. The plot structure in romantacy sticks closely to the structure of any other romance book. People who already read romances will feel at home in a romantacy, because it is a romance first, and it sells well because romances always sell better as a genre than most others.

[@LoreGeist]

Fourth Wing definitely feels like what you described

[@Joyride37]

I love romance. I love fantasy. I would love to read a sweeping epic the likes of GOT (where it has an ending lol), set in a dark world with deep and intricate world building with a slow encroaching evil and two people from different worlds thrust together and have to learn to trust each other and survive the odds, becoming fire forged friends that then slowly burns into something else, while managing the obstacles of the plot - political intrigue, revenge, existential terror, race to a lost ancient city, what have you. The romance is important, even central, to the plot. But the story is more about the characters journey together than if they bang or kiss Romantasy, however, is not that. It usually feels more like contemporary romance genre with a thin fantasy veneer slapped on top of it

[@LoreGeist]

Yeah, I wish I could find something like you described. But fourth wing for example is literally just contemporary with some fantasy coating

[@alannapenner37]

Yeah, I completely agree. There's lots of potential in romantasy. However, I'm part of a big romantasy Facebook group, and the overwhelming majority of romantasy readers WANT the dark-haired, ethnically ambiguous, abusive, possessive male leads (bonus points if he's like 500 years old and the heroine is 20). The demand is high for enemies-to-lovers, one-bed, touch-her-and-die, and it seems like every romantasy book now is just a checklist of tropes and the author is trying to fit as many as they can in one book. So I'm laying off reading romantasy until A) we can get some more diversity in the love interests we're getting and B) we can get literally ANYTHING besides enemies-to-lovers. Why is bodyguard romance not hugely successful in romantasy? Where are the friends-to-lovers couples? I'm so tired of crabby and stabby, I just want something NEW😭

[@LoreGeist]

What even is one bed? 😂 yeah but for sure, it became a checklist of tropes to include pretty much

[@miguelthedrawtist]

I'm not convinced that Romantasy readers generally go on to become fans other kinds of Fantasy (except maybe so-called "cozy" versions of other Fantasy genres). It seems---to me, at least---that Romantasy only makes them crave more of the same as well as make them begin to expect other kinds of Fantasy to be more like it. Romantasy readers tend to have a very solipsistic disposition, imo

[@LoreGeist]

I think there are sub categories of Romantasy readers tbh

[@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve]

Off topic. Most, but not all, authors forget that most, but not all, fantasy and science fiction tales are translations into a modern Terran language. Thus, not only do you have untranslatable terms like simpels (sic), a type of hat?, but you have odd turns of phrase. I was listening to an old book while falling asleep and they used the old formula of 'five and thirty'. A foreign culture might consider three lucky and so every year of a person's age would use a formula where a three word always starts, as in 'thirty less one' or 'three and a handful of years'. They could have odd customs like no man can speak until the woman present has initiated the conversation. I point these things out because worldbuilding is often restricted to just sights and sounds, which require description. I can imagine a reader's shock when mid-story, a man is rebuked for speaking first. They would have to go back and check to see if a male had spoken first prior to that. People in that culture would not mention such a rule until it was broken. And if someone said eight instead of three and a handful, perhaps the listener would need to perform ritual, like touch their heart and then each shoulder (triangle). Such odd turns of phrase would not interrupt the flow of the story, but add an exotic element to remind the reader that they are not on Earth.

[@LoreGeist]

Yeah, modern language breaks immersion sometimes. Classic example is Brandon using wait a sec in Stormlight archive

[@woodlandlady7011]

All these books are aimed at YA and NA! I would like to have more world building and adult themes not just young smut and love triangles.

[@LoreGeist]

@@woodlandlady7011 that’s what I was trying to find while researching for the video 😅

[@neasanicdhomhnaill7112]

I agree, I don't mind romance in fantasy but those specific books aren't well executed. I'm writing an epic fantasy/romance but am working hard to make it a well structured book with all types of relationship arcs, in a rich magical world with complex political systems, cultures and histories. 🙂

[@LoreGeist]

Sounds fun! What is your setting about?

[@CyberCaliber]

the whole point of romantasy is just dumb fun and harlequin romance. Its nothing new. its just a niche that is exploding in popularity. the only problem i have is the marketing and how inaccurate the descriptions are. I would try these books cause the premise sounds interesting but the story has to nothing to do with that.

[@westower7898]

It is fine to have romance IN a fantasy story but not dominating it.

[@stephennootens916]

It works with the right blend. I think of the manga Inuyasha about a half dog demon boy and a twentieth century high school girl fighting monsters in feudal Japan. Sure there is will they or won't they romance but it always has other plots going on and center story with solid villain.

[@Jungalicious5678]

There's a lot of great romantasy manga​@@stephennootens916

[@LoreGeist]

I like a good mix too

[@bhorrthunderhoof4925]

To make an excellent meal you need many ingredients but you have to add them in the right measure. And this this new authors need still to learn. My only concern is that toxic dominance (no matter if on the men or the women's side) gets romanticized.

[@LoreGeist]

@@bhorrthunderhoof4925 yeah, the problem is these big names reach success without fully perfecting their craft and then they don’t have a reason to perfect it anymore 😅

[@aelitastone5629]

Not all story have to be good or green flags...

[@tgillies101]

The Wheel of Markets turn, Romantasy is on top just as Grim Dark was, they will phase out and probably come back in vogue in another 25 years or so. Human taste goes in cycles.

[@LoreGeist]

Yeah, we will still have a phase of all these big names becoming tv and cinema adaptations so we’ll be seeing Romantasy for a while before the next cycle I think

[@miguelthedrawtist]

Grim Dark was on top?? When? I must've missed that. From what I can remember, it was Sword & Sorcery (eg. Conan), then High Fantasy (LOTR), then YA Fantasy (Harry Potter), Paranormal Romance (Twilight), YA Dystopian Sci-Fi (Hunger Games) and now Romantasy (Fourth Wing) that were/are on top

[@LoreGeist]

@ GOT era. Everything was edgy back then

[@Doomwolf82002]

The real issue that people currently have with the genre is its quantity over quality in that publisher are pumping out low tier rubbish all for the sake of a cash grab due to its explosive popularity and are sadly being rewarded for it thanks in part to things like booktok.

[@LoreGeist]

@@Doomwolf82002 yep, and because they’re being rewarded there’s no incentive to improve on their individual writing or raise the quality bar of the subgenre

[@jamestipton3342]

In all honesty, I don't hate Romantasy; however, it feels as though it is strictly women and girls. Now it enforces a negative that us men have to look like a Renaissance statue and be perfect in some redundant way. I remember in highschool a lot of the guys in my class, myself included, with all the girls expecting us to be like the vampire or werewolf in twilight. Essentially, subgenres need to appeal to a wider demographic .

[@LoreGeist]

Yeah, there’s definitely a “female gaze” thing going on in the sub genre, but to be fair men did this to women for a long time as well

[@thegnome73]

@LoreGeist *do

[@miguelthedrawtist]

But then isn't the idea of a sub-genre that it _is_ niche, tho?

[@aelitastone5629]

That what we call niche. Your not the public and nothing wrong with that. And you talk about high school experience but excuse me... that HIGHT SCHOOL. What will you expect from people of that age. Not like men, and adult do this better. Well women too now.

[@aaron6622]

The biggest problem I have with Romantasy is how by-the-numbers it all is. Story beats become predictable, and the whole genre is being flooded with slop that no one would read but for the smut.

[@LoreGeist]

Yeah it’s even more tropey than regular fantasy

[@BlakeAlexander-kq8qq]

I am an author, and I sometimes write in the romantasy style your video was really good

[@BlakeAlexander-kq8qq]

I won't recommend my books don't worry :) I write dark fantasy too

[@LoreGeist]

Thanks! 👊

[@RaniaFarislovesRoubi]

I read most Romantasy Books...On Positive side, they are very easy to read, they have a lot of dialogue and very familiar, no need to wreck your brain for critical thinking and wild imagination but yes, they would involve more on 90 % Romance 9% filler and 1% Fantasy

[@LoreGeist]

Anything that particularly stand out to you?

[@GatekeeperGuardian-wv3cd]

This video asks the wrong question. There's nothing wrong with romantasy in principle, but there IS something wrong with what stories we've been getting out of that genre. The real question is why current romantasy is all so derivative and who is to blame.

[@LoreGeist]

Sure, I’m down for some well written Romantasy, just haven’t found it yet

[@IsabellaMathew]

From a woman perspective. Personally I am not fan of the genre probably do fact I don’t like romance genre. However, I do find the criticism is not being like traditional fantasy I really dumb criticism. When if you wanna be technical, there’s no such thing. Like there’s plenty of fantasy before token, and even after token where the plot is on this grand scale.

[@LoreGeist]

I don’t like the “not like traditional fantasy” criticism as well because it kinda gatekeeps the genre. Which doesn’t super work with art 🤷‍♂️

[@IsabellaMathew]

@LoreGeist honestly agree.

[@milestrombley1466]

It needs balance.

[@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve]

When I was growing up, certain males stated that a man and a woman cannot be in close proximity without chemistry happening. I didn't like that attitude then and I still don't. But in a culture where one sort of person can find success only through the attention of another class (like the elves in Ella Enchanted), then both play that game and both will oppose changing the rules. I live in a matriarchy and those rules don't apply here because no assistance is needed to achieve self-fulfillment. I would say the answer to romance is the same for violence; both are being used to cover up poor writing and to generate interest in spite of it. I, for one, would not like to see a romance between Legolas and Gimli; friendship is more plot friendly. So, if a writer is adding romance because it advances the plot, like in Shrek, then great. But if it is just to generate enthusiasm for weak writing or because a publisher demands such an addition regardless of the story's needs, then I oppose it.

[@LoreGeist]

I do like the idea of a good romance plot being executed in a fantasy setting, to the level of quality of a good romance novel, I just don’t see it that often yet. These big Romantasy names rely a bit in contrived conflict to keep things interesting between the couple

[@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve]

@LoreGeist I have no objection to saving the world either. I have just seen one advice too many that x cubed is so much more compelling than plain x, so don't have your lovers pronounce an angry word, let them break things so that we know they are really angry. At this point, I'd rather see a good friendship than romance. I much prefer Legolas and Gimli to the elf and dwarf romance in the Hobbit film. The writing itself was so much more compelling. I think this world has enough romance cutting us off from the world (lovers see only each other) and I would like to see more linking us to the world, saying that we are worth something intrinsically, not just if we are romantic.

[@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve]

@ I had to rush out before but I have been thinking of the situation. The best analogy in modern life is a music band that is constantly on tour. To put it another way, because of the scarcity of characters in a story, any romance is like an office romance, with the boss. The problem is compounded in that the protagonist is often the Chosen One, or at the least, the better than anyone around. How do you find a partner in that situation? The funny thing is that Rowling was aware of the problem and then united Harry with moon-eyed Ginny and to balance things, gave moon-eyed Ron to Hermione. The only equals to Harry in the books was Luna and Hermione, because they didn't care about Harry's status. Harry knew Hermione too well, making Luna the exciting, unpredictable partner. You find the same equal status between Taran and Eilonwy (Prydain Chronicles) and between Shrek and the Princess. But then you have Donkey and Dragon (six letter names beginning with D) as a disaster. I really liked that Aragorn did not have a romance in Rohan; it made his love for Arwen all the more vibrant: good things are worth waiting for. You might consider a video delving into how to actually handle a fantasy romance as there is plenty more depth to go.

[@LoreGeist]

@@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve I like a well written friendship / mentorship etc too. A lot of epic fantasy hyper focuses on world building aspects and they don’t spend mental energy to think about how complex and interesting human relationships can be and it’s a shame. Planning two arcs for different characters, and also planning how their friendship/ relationship etc influences each arc and how each of them act as a contrast to each other, while juggling plot, other characters, world building etc is freaking challenging to be fair 😅

[@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve]

@LoreGeist Agreed. But anyone involved in worldbuilding loves a challenge. The best stories are collaborations like Angelique.

[@beccaknight5763]

Honestly, it’s more popular now than ever I’m not surprised because fans of romance don’t have much media beyond books to indulge, there are not much romantic films for example. I remember reading these types of books when I was younger and I thought most were largely the same and that they were not the best written (like toxic relationships and the same types of characters etc. ) . My opinion still stands. It has its audience that love escapism so I think it will be here to stay because people always need to indulge.

[@LoreGeist]

There’s a huge chunk of the audience who enjoys smut with a thinly veiled excuse for a plot and that is unlikely to exist in visual media any time soon

[@LokiStuartsson]

My favourite Romantasy stories are The Witcher and Conan Queen Of The Black Coast lol...yes i know they aren't Romantasy, but tell that to the Gen Z crowd. Another great video, my friend.

[@LoreGeist]

Thanks! I like the romance in Witcher as well tbh, doesn’t overtake the plot, just adds to it. Also it makes both characters better

[@TakruTori]

The originals was one of the best at this. Ichabod avoided it but barely.

[@LoreGeist]

I actually had fun with true blood the tv show as well, the first few seasons are pretty solid, and they improved the source material

[@willlyon7129]

I find these new book genres to be formulaic.

[@tgillies101]

I think its a case of literacy being higher in girls than boys these days, or more boys literacy is dropping. My son who is 18 and niece who is 15 both adore fantasy as a genre, but consume it differently, my niece reads more, my son plays video games. Maybe thats because girls are more cerebral and boys visually orientated and this flow onto what media the genre is consumed in. But fantasy is killing it in both mediums so maybe its a win/win in the end.

[@LoreGeist]

That’s a good point. Video game media is killing it too.

[@HashFier]

Man, the rapid jarring cuts in your videos (sometimes even punctuating words) really takes me out of your otherwise great subject matter. Please do something about it.

[@ragnarososo]

Honestly? I hate it.

[@cobinizer]

It could be that only non-white and non-male authors are published. DEI isn't known for producing quality results.

[@LoreGeist]

Implying non white non male authors are incapable of producing quality writing is crazy ngl

[@cobinizer]

@LoreGeist Bah. That's not the point. Accepting manuscripts on the basis of skin color or sex and not quality is why it sucks.

[@Dragor33-rg7xj]

@@cobinizer even though we have data for racism, Im not sure if we have data for publisher revenues or how many books have been written by authors's of skin colors (like Asian, Black,...). On one hand it can be interesting about how skin color affect quality of books, but on the other hand the data can be interpreted with bad intentions. And when people talk about general problems, its mostly USA or westerns culture background so Its a bit skewed and confusing to be honest.

[@TheEclecticGoat]

@LoreGeist TBF, i found your comment about how it requires a romance storyline for women to get to be in the forefront of the story to be equally gross.

[@LoreGeist]

@ hm, that was also not my point lol. I'm just saying that the difference in the number of women reading romantasy and reading regular fantasy is very significant. I didn't say women are only interested in romance.

[@julieorwell]

I’m not against romance and I love romantic films, but my first attempt with romantasy was ACOTAR and I dnf after 7 chapters. The MC seemed so ridiculously dumb, it physically hurt me to read. Now I’m traumatized and scared to read other series, considering that this one is *the most popular* 🥲

[@LoreGeist]

The think is, the ACOTAR author at least has some moments of brilliance, well written prose and so on. I remember a snow hunting scene in the early chapters that is particularly atmospheric. But shit goes off the rails quickly. So there’s potential there but now that she is hugely successful there’s no motivation to improve 😅

[@julieorwell]

@ my friend is a huge fan of Maas and she told me “the first book is really stupid, but keep reading, the second one is amazing!” And I was like - so you’re telling me I have to suffer for 600 pages reading the POV of the most annoying character I’ve seen in a long time, but later it will get good? That didn’t sound very appealing to me tbh. I might try other series though, just to form a better opinion on the genre…