Is Superhero Fatigue Real? It's complicated.

I've got thoughts.

[@Match143]

If Werewolf By Night came out in theatres I would have gone to see it multiple times. The length was not a problem, the effects were not a problem, it was just really good. Give us good writing and good character development.

[@marshsundeen]

People are more willing to give stuff a chance on Disney+, than spending money in a theater.

[@BirthquakeRecords]

Werewolf at Night was awesome, and I think people have forgotten that. You know what would've ruined Werewolf at Night? Stretching it out into 6-8 full-length episodes, instead of telling the story economically. Which seems to be the current MCU model.

[@thelandlockedkaiju4820]

@@BirthquakeRecordsabsolutely. I still can’t think of more than two or three shows that NEEDED to be shows or that used that format well. However, the Eternals should absolutely have been.

[@addlolone]

I 100% agree to this comment, also ​ @marshsundeen ​ @BirthQuakeRecords ​ @thelandlockedkaiju4820 100% agree with you. It's crazy how they are kind of fumbling. I wish it turnes all great in the end

[@deanscordilis7280]

@@thelandlockedkaiju4820Chloe Zhao was done dirty with a 2-hour runtime on a centuries-spanning ensemble character study

[@KobytheHero]

Genre fatigue isn’t real, quality fatigue is. Marvel’s projects being very similar and falling off a bit in quality recently are the culprits. People don’t just want to watch the same thing. I also wager that the connectivity of the MCU is bound to eventually be a turn-off to some who haven’t been avidly following it for a decade

[@marvinp90]

Exactly this! I still love the MCU and want more films and shows it’s just most of what has come out lately has been dull and too formulaic. Bring back the originality that the previous projects had along with less reliance on CGI for everything and it would greatly improve things

[@donaldvonglitchenberger4108]

Genre fatigue is without a doubt real what are you talking about lol. I stopped watching super hero micvies right before endgame. Not cause they were bad, cause I got tired of super hero movies

[@iamalittler]

And why I like Marvel movies is that they don’t usually treat ‘superhero’ as a genre. Shang-Chi was mostly a cool kung-fu action movie, Winter Soldier was mostly a political thriller, Iron Man was mostly just an action movie. The SnyderVeese was just … superheroes. They were fighting. There wasn’t much else to it.

[@KobytheHero]

@@donaldvonglitchenberger4108 google “anecdotal evidence” please

[@hid4]

Just because you don't experience it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This is exactly why there are some people saying racism doesn't exist in this random country/place. They may be small and not as loud as others expressing their thoughts on the internet, but it still real nonetheless

[@kappakiev9672]

It’s not comic movie fatigue. It’s MEDIOCRE comic movie fatigue. We just had Guardians Vol 3 and Across the Spider-Verse and both were stellar.

[@djangowest1754]

Pretty sure Guardians was pretty interstellar, personally

[@botanicus2921]

​@djangowest1754 wow we're a gang of dorks

[@ahobbyist9520]

gyardians.

[@kappakiev9672]

@@ahobbyist9520 they’re from Boston

[@donaldvonglitchenberger4108]

And I didn’t watch either one cause I’m sick of SUPER HERO movies. Maybe I’ll watch em in 15 years

[@daneroberts1996]

The fact that so many of my friends have never even heard of Werewolf by Night, which I find to be one of the best marvel products, and that there’s currently no plan to ever bring the characters back is so so sad to me

[@booktales1687]

Genuinely one of their best projects. So devastating about how unknown it is.

[@bennett4789]

it was alright. huge case of style over substance. i liked the visuals but its not like it introduced any story ideas im dying to see followed up on

[@dope8878]

It’s honestly not all that. It’s fun and it’s cool and I’d watch it again but it’s nowhere near “must watch” territory

[@mk6rfc1]

Awfully marketed, they didn’t officially recognise it actually existed until a month before release during D23

[@jdizzledaplaya2986]

I'm sure they're bringing those characters back. I mean I don't know about the rest of the characters but Moon Knight has tussled with Werewolf By Night before in the comics so possibly he could in a Season 2 same with Rama Tut

[@demonteprice5870]

I'm of the camp who believes Marvel was better when there was a lot less Marvel. I feel like less movies means more time to make *good* movies.

[@nickkowal619]

I think where a lot of the "Marvel Fatigue" narratives come from the fact that prior to Endgame, every movie they released was essential to watch for the ongoing story; and the movies post-Endgame don't feel that way because of the undefined plans and disjointed releases. I think people see that revenue has decrease from the $1 Billion per movie they were doing for a year or so, and equate the relative drop in revenue to fatigue, rather than that people don't view every film as essential like the couple years from the run up to and run off from Infinity War & Endgame.

[@thatguyted4140]

Literally my thoughts as well. We didn’t even see where the story was going back then and we were excited then. Why not now? I think skrodey is a good representation of that. Now we got something where we can look back and go “oh shit THAT WENT SOMEWHERE I GET IT NOW!”

[@clam6254]

i think a part of the problem that we aren’t talking about is that there is no avengers team yet. that doesn’t seem like such a problem, but i think we forget that the avengers movies are the highest grossing marvel movies. people like seeing different characters bounce off each other, have relationships with each other, and grow. people are tired of movies that solely exist to introduce a character without fleshing them out, which has been every marvel movie and show barring no way home (multiverse of madness if we’re stretching). if you want people to care about superhero movies, get them to care about the superheroes. bring ‘em together, make them friends, give them personal flaws and emotional nuances. that’ll get people interested

[@NelsonStJames]

I didn’t. The main reason I loved guardians of the galaxy was because I got a great story that wasn’t so tied the ongoing infinity stones thing that I was satisfied just seeing their trilogy alone. The best MCU films told great self contained stories that didn’t require you to watch a dozen other movies just to know what was going on.

[@AS-ri1mb]

However, most of the movies werent necessarily linked in any strong way. A cameo from the Infinity Stones is a pretty weak link and most people in the audience didnt even know there was a link until IW and Endgame

[@nickkowal619]

@AS-ri1mb I guess I'm more talking about the time period leading up to IW and Endgame because that's when hype was the highest. The Period we are in right now feels like post Avengers 1 meandering until a new huge thread is created.

[@huntermurrell]

I actually see Iger’s perspective on this. Yes, GOTG 3 did really well and Quantumania eked out a profit. But the return on investment just isn’t there like it was four years ago. Quantumania, Love and Thunder, MoM, etc. aren’t going to get people back in the theater the same way Avengers movies and OG hero stand-alones did. We’re now at a point where audiences are becoming massively selective about what they see in theaters due to both a lack of enthusiasm and general market forces like inflation and cost of living. Every single Marvel movie is no longer a must-see on the big screen. Spacing out these releases, giving your teams more time to polish the products, and creating a more cohesive vision is a smart choice.

[@gavincassells7585]

The problem with this perspective is that a lot of those movies just weren't very good. You're also missing lag. When someone sees a bad Marvel movie, it's not until the next one that you see their missing ticket purchase. If there is marvel fatigue, then it's on the creative side. The quality has just been much lower in the last two years.

[@huntermurrell]

@@gavincassells7585 I agree, the quality is drastically dropping off a cliff (which, as a Marvel, and superhero fan in general, is pretty sad to see). But I can see where the idea comes from to spread these releases out so that there’s more time and care put into these films to improve said quality. I think the quality has been lacking for years now and that’s why things like Ant-Man (which would have at least turned out a mediocre profit four years ago) end up just barely scraping by. James Gunn’s films have garnered trust with audiences so GOTG was always going to do well. I doubt The Marvels will do as well as it would have prior to this more recent over saturation of the market, though. I also neglected to take into account Hollywood Accounting, which basically means these movie budgets could be inflated on paper and the profit could be a lot better in actuality but the studio manufactures a loss in order to avoid paying royalties

[@gavincassells7585]

@@huntermurrell I guess I think that the problem lies entirely on the choices that are being made on the creative/managerial side. I think it’s possible to keep to 3 movies and several D+ shows a year and maintain quality, but that for whatever reason, Disney doesn’t think it can manage it and it’s blaming the audience. If the audience isn’t turning up, it’s their fault and they should take ownership of it and not blame genre fatigue.

[@mk6rfc1]

Quantumania wasn’t a bomb but it definitely was a disappointment, they tried to ‘Ragnarok’ the Ant-Man films (when they were pretty solid in the first place) and it blew in their faces with the worst film in the trilogy and made even less than the first Ant-Man

[@huntermurrell]

@@gavincassells7585 on that we can agree for sure. They seem scared to put the resources behind these projects and I’m willing to bet it’s because they don’t have a solid plan like they used to. Blaming the audience is a huge problem, I didn’t mean to insinuate it was the audience’s fault

[@zachryder3150]

You have to love how Disney begged audiences to stop treating every entry of the MCU as "might-see" content when they didn't bother spacing out their releases and as such; they had episodes of Ms Marvel airing the same weeks as Thor 4's premiere.

[@Unknown23430]

I totally forgot about that one. That was messed up.

[@jahleel0077]

Wasn't that due to the pandemic screwing up their release schedule?

[@Dave102693]

@@jahleel0077yeah it was, but they still made too many projects

[@jahleel0077]

@@Dave102693 agreed

[@katherinealvarez9216]

Anyone else liked Little Mermaid? I was genuinely surprised that I liked it. Was this an anomaly because the live action remakes usually are just bad, with very few exceptions.

[@itsveggieboy]

I’m glad Disney is doing this. Don’t get me wrong, I love Marvel, but if we get 2 less movies a year in exchange for the other 1-2 to be higher quality and more unique, I’d rake that deal in a heartbeat. Hell, even doing it just to get film twitter to stop complaining about the MCU seems worth it.

[@rafaelcruz9973]

Nando, I dont think you quite get how much these movies really need to make to turn a profit. Other than Guardians 3, all other Disney movies this year have had a budget of 200-300 million and none of them have grossed more than 550 million. Its the production cost 200+ million plus the marketing (usually 100m) and half of the gross goes to theaters. These movies would need at least 600 million to break even, which in the past, was no problem for Disney. So no, things are not fine, obviously they're not terrible because the whole industry is suffering from mediocre blockbuster fatigue, but this has been a very bad year for Disney.

[@RobertoMartinCatoni]

Exactly. Nando, Guardians 3 did not make 600m in profit

[@jeromealday614]

I was so surprised that theatres takes half so I looked it up and you're basically right. The norm is that at start, distributors have a bigger cut but theaters cut get bigger as it goes along. Kinda crazy tbh, I've always thought is it was around 20 to 30%.

[@williammoldowan]

You are completely correct but he said he didn’t completely know

[@melvinlinderoth7108]

Yeah as someone who is really in to following the box office this really irked me. Usually love Nando’s videos but this one he could definitely have done a bit more research.

[@melvinlinderoth7108]

Using the calculations from Dan Murrell the movie just about made a profit in the theatrical window. Which is still good because then all the extra money partnerships, merch etc goes directly to profit but still. 600m profit, no, not even close.

[@jj-reads]

I don’t have superhero fatigue. I’m more into superheroes than ever. I just have a lot better sense of which characters I care about and don’t, now that I read comics on a daily basis. So it’s harder for me to care about watching things like Secret Invasion as soon as the episodes drop bc I know there aren’t any characters in it that I particularly care about. My friends are all into superheroes, so we go to the movies on opening night still as a social thing. But it’s getting hard with the tv shows.

[@ellicel]

I appreciate the effort made to put the spreadsheet together to help with the points you're making. If I could make a suggestion, though, I'd urge you to consider adding the marketing costs in addition to the budgets released by the studios. Estimates for marketing for these blockbusters are ~$100M, so a rather significant amount. In addition, the studio only gets a % of the revenue after splitting with the theaters. It varies by studio and country but in general 50%ish of domestic revenues, 40%ish of international revenue, and 25%ish from China. With the way that movie costs have ballooned, many movies have to make almost a billion dollars gross in order to be profitable from just the theatrical release. They absolutely have to rely on the tie-ins and toys, which as you've pointed out, they're not maximizing. Having said all that, I agree with your overall point that it's not a matter of superhero fatigue. I think that's a lazy and simple way to justify their decisions and reduce what is a complex situation into a soundbite (with the added bonus that it subtly hints that it's the audience at fault). Studios need to be more fiscally responsible, ensure quality writing and execution, have additional and more creative ways to profit on the backend, and maybe go back to the drawing board regarding the streaming model. There's quite a few movies that I decided to skip in theaters because I the reviews weren't great and I knew I could see them at home in a relatively short time if I still felt like giving it a chance despite reviews.

[@jayhartRIC]

The double the production budget rule is meant to be an estimate of the number to break even. If you actually know the marketing budget then you can add those two numbers together and multiply by 1.5 to get the breakeven number. For the purposes of his spreadsheet the profit column could just double the production budget and subtract that number from the box office.

[@RandomRamblings86]

The fact that the toys for Ant-Man just came out (with no modok) and Lego didn't make anything for the movie is insane

[@JGandthe2kk]

I feel like we don’t have superhero fatigue, but we have is marvel having a synergy problem. Everybody’s kind of just waiting for them to get to the point we want to understand how all these movies are relevant to each other DC on the other hand has a tone problem it feels like there’s too many different tones for every character, superman doesn’t quite feel like superman wonder woman doesn’t feel like wonder woman it’s just all over the place. I am still very convinced that when Deadpool comes out it’s gonna make $1 billion.

[@necro-esque666]

A couple thoughts I had throughout this video: 1. A lot of money is going into Disney Plus shows that we have no way of knowing are profitable. In fact, based off what we do know about these shows, especially the more recent ones, they seem to not be bringing in enough money to justify the expenses. 2. Spider-Verse 2 being the second highest grossing film of the year is not as great as it might sound on paper. A smaller percentage of the money earned goes to Disney since they have to share those earnings with Sony and Columbia Pictures. 3. Guardians of the Galaxy 3 might also not be the best point of reference since a lot of audiences knew that this was the final Guardians movie, at least made by James Gunn. Even ignoring that there were definitely people who went in not knowing that, Gunn will no longer be working on Marvel projects, and it seems like a lot of the actors playing the Guardians that people grew to love won't be returning. 4. The upcoming Marvel projects aren't quite headliners. Yes, a new Captain America movie is going to pull in a large audience, and I think The Marvels has an okay shot at making money, but I have to question where the audience for Echo or Ironheart are. Agatha Coven of Chaos might do well, and Daredevil will likely have an audience based off the success of the Netflix series, but these projects have budgets close to the movies, and it's very hard to believe that they will bring in those profits. Also, it's going to be very hard to get an audience for Thunderbolts when the best way to describe it is "MCU Suicide Squad" given the reputation of that film, and the less than impressive roster of living MCU villains. 5. Some of these projects have absolutely gotten upset by recent developments. If rumors about the planned Fantastic 4 cast dropping out are true, than that movie is going to be going through even more problems. The big bad they had planned for the new phase is on trial for some very serious crimes, so they have to redo their plans for future projects involving Kang, whether it be recasting him or replacing the character entirely. And obviously, the actors and writers strike is pushing a lot of these projects back, and if things go in the favor of the unions, then Marvel is either going to have to spend more money on these movies to properly compensate the people working on them, or will have to remove the budget from other departments. Either way, it would make less financial sense to have to increase the costs to make these movies when they're pumping 3 of them out a year on top of 3 streaming shows a year. These are why I feel cutting back on MCU projects is ultimately a sense making idea. Some are more strong points than others, but I still think that ultimately, cutting back on Marvel stuff is fine.

[@mishterkhalid3117]

sony doesnt have to share spiderverse box office money with disney. sony owns the rights to spiderman. they only have to share revenues with disney when they are making tom holland spiderman movies, since that character exists in mcu, which is owned by disney.

[@Achieme]

My opinion on number 4 maybe offputting but I feel like Marvel is starting to loose the audience because he's the thing why are the obscure/less popular characters getting their own shows or movies rather than the popular ones who is . No seriously who asked for an Echo show, an ironheart show, agatha show when they could've build the fantastic 4, X-men, Ghost rider, (yes we're getting them soon but they should've done this instead of giving us lackluster properties to get fans hyped) in other words give the fans what they want.

[@iamalittler]

I like the way I imagined D+ would work: make TV shows out of connecting characters, make movies out of main onesof, make Avengers movies out of teams

[@jalonso3060]

Nando's moustache is looking real good 😮

[@richhutnik2477]

The Cavillstache found a new home!

[@andrewvideogames]

Inspirational even, I’m taking cues

[@DHMyers1994]

Just a quick note, it’s a little unclear what numbers your using to judge whether these projects make money or not. As far as I was informed, typically a movie needs to make double it’s budget back in order to actually make money because advertising isn’t included in most publicly released figures. Obviously that is a very rough estimate, I assume that the budget to advertise Dial of Destiny wasn’t equal to its production budget so we’ve got some extreme examples this year.

[@mr.t107]

I wish people would stop saying super hero fatigue. It's bad movie fatigue. These studios pump out low quality movies and expect us to watch because super heroes are in it. This is the result of that dynamic. People are finally demanding higher quality. The superheroes are not the issue

[@Robin0928]

The big trend I'm seeing this year is that word of mouth and strong legs >>>> opening weekend brainrot. We saw Elemental go from "proof of the death of Pixar" to "the highest grossing Disney animated film since Frozen 2". People are voting more with their wallets and not coming out opening weekend more and more.

[@jimjuly6074]

I think that is by scaling down production, he means slowing down to make sure there is time of the script, the CGI, and the marketing I think it’s a great idea.

[@ZachsMind]

Hot take before watching the video: It's not superhero fatigue that's killing Marvel. It's two things: 1) bad storytelling and 2) bad presentation. We got to Endgame and up until then we had a relatively cohesive story with smaller stories scattered about. It felt like it was going somewhere. Good presentation. The Endgame felt like a satisfying end. Compare this to Back to the Future Part 3 or Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. The wind up was good, and they hit it out of the park. So anything that might happen after that is falling action. Bad presentation. Furthermore the stories told since Endgame have been color by numbers voted by committee. With few good eggs, it's been mostly bad storytelling. Now, you can tell all the superhero stories that you want but superhero stories in modern context are not really a genre by themselves. They're more like a backdrop. A schtick. It's a thing that the audience agrees going in to suspend disbelief. It's like a zombie film. There really isn't such a thing as a zombie film. There's horror movies with zombies in them. There's romantic comedies with zombies in them. There's westerns and historical dramas and action adventure films where zombies are a device used throughout. If the story is well told, the zombies just help to flavor the experience. The Wizard of Oz and The Lord of the Rings trilogy are essentially the same story. A group of people find each other by circumstance or necessity, and they go on a journey to accomplish a common goal, each hoping to achieve their own character driven macguffins. Is that a genre? Or is it flavor? Or is it just good storytelling when it's done well and whether you use orcs or flying monkeys doesn't really matter? Now arguably a "true superhero genre story" is where a protagonist acquires special powers and uses them to save others from various threats, discovering along the way a primary antagonist which proves to be too strong an adversary, forcing the protagonist to up his game and become a better hero in order to save the day. Some Marvel movies stick to that game plan but arguably the best ones take a stronger genre like a Heist, or a Spy Thriller or a Domestic Drama or even Man vs Self psychological thriller to beef up the story a little bit. You can only tell so many origin stories before they get long in the tooth. Spider-Man Homecoming skipped the origin story almost entirely and was all the better for it. However, it was still more of a Coming of Age story like the ones John Hughes made popular in the 1980s. The Superhero motif was like the backdrop. Not a genre per se.

[@matt15]

14:00 “calm down, do nothing you’re a cat” as a fellow cat owner I’ve never related to a statement more than this lol

[@z-beeblebrox]

re: Disney merchandizing decisions One thing that should help with context is that when the Mandalorian s1 first aired, I was part of the QA team for the official Shop Disney website, and they 100% were NOT ready for baby Yoda to be a hit. We got slammed with requests for baby yoda stuff and they basically had to rush early-release their one debut plush they were planning on putting on sale during Christmas just to placate rabid fans. We were all dumbfounded that nobody higher up considered this would be huge. For how good Disney is at creating merchandise-friendly media, they are actually shockingly bad at recognizing it half the time.

[@SummerOtaku]

It’s probably word that the actor & writer strike will be on going for a while which will put a ton of plans on hold or canceled so if they make it seem like it’s their decision to release less it preps people for that outcome without giving leverage to the strikers.

[@Prettywitchiusaka]

Exactly…And I can’t help but think that might be a good thing in hindsight. The strike slowing production I mean. I love Marvel, but even I feel they’re putting out too much and need to slow down.

[@kylemalaniak568]

personally i love long winded videos that talk about anything superhero related or adjacent. fills the air nicely on my commutes. thanks nando

[@kidanarchy2105]

I think scaling back makes sense on some level. The MCU was most profitable in phase 3, when they were releasing 2 films a year. Now they're releasing 3 movies, 2 miniseries, and a direct to streaming special every year, plus they have more competition in the superhero genre. I think scaling back a bit, (2 films, 1 miniseries series, 1 special) would allow for a more focused, less scattershot approach that would remind people more of the glory days of the franchise. Every piece would feel important again.

[@Jdotcdot462]

The things is Nando, Little mermaid and Quantamania did not make a profit at all and didn’t even break even. You have to account the marketing budget and how theaters in the US keep 1/3 of the money and theater overseas keep 3/4 of the money. And also how Disney+ has been losing money for years because their shows are way too expensive to make.

[@katherinealvarez9216]

I don't really believe in superhero movie fatigue but I do believe in Hollywood trends. Can the next trend be fairies?

[@Hllywd06]

Underrated comment!

[@brandondavis3431]

The streaming model has hurt the value of films. When movies took 6 months to release to home video then people would pay to see good movies in theaters and pay to own the movie when it came out but due to streaming and the short window it’s devalued the product. That’s all movies not just genre, but also the budgets have for insane and every studio is swinging for a billion but it’s just not realistic.

[@thepubknight6144]

And the movies are available on streaming channels like Disney plus and Max in 45 days

[@SolarE845]

I think that 3 movies a year is a good benchmark, that is the number they were releasing in phase 3 and it was exciting to go and watch because you hadn't seen a new marvel thing in 3-4 months. Also helps that most of those movies were good if not great

[@hunterfrancis6010]

Mortimer is probably my favourite character in the Nitpicking Extended universe.

[@ThompsonBrosStudios]

I actually really enjoyed shazam 2, almost as much as the first, but man I didn't check it out until it was on streaming cause the trailers were trash and it got mediocre reviews. I think a lot of people myself included have stopped seeing EVERY superhero movie, and are more selective on what they see based on reviews and trailers. It's mediocrity fatigue, I don't care if it's superheroes or not, I just want to watch good movies.

[@sand4273]

I’m ready for the back-to-basics approach that the introduction of X-Men/FF and Gunn’s Superman could bring (if done right, as always).

[@paulchavez3039]

I think just like how it is with the comics, because there is so much of it and so many heroes and lesser known series and then different iterations of those characters from different writers so we all pick our favorites and see those ones :)

[@LaBooF42]

IMO’ A lot of comic book movies are starting to blend together. They’re needs to be more focus on scripts and direction to where each movie feels like its on thing. A lot of personality has been lost on these films. Now a days, you can’t just get by on the name, they need to stand on something. The biggest part is a lot of talented directors don’t wanna work with big studios. The thing with Gunn is - he will be a head for the creatives (to fight for the talent and quality against the top bunch). More and more these days it seems like Feige (who seemed to at least somewhat fight for the filmmakers) has less control of the franchise. I think Disney knows how much money they make, and they’re being greedy over constructive. The problem at the center is the studios who make them. They’re aren’t willing to take swings with a lot of creative filmmakers, because they don’t wanna lose money. In conclusion; if it’s good - it will do well.

[@phillipbell4394]

I'd argue that a large part of the reason that Iger is going to scale back production is BECAUSE of the success of Guardians 3 paired with how bad Secret Invasion and Quantumania were. He's realizing that the only person that made a good movie no longer works for them, and not only that, he's working directly for the opposition in DC. He has no chance of competing, so if can't compete, then he needs to move onto milking other IPs. I wouldn't be surprised if you start seeing heavily focus tested stuff with the outright intention of trying to recreate the success of Marvel or Pirates of the Carribean.

[@jacoblubben7307]

So, very very important to point out that a movie needs to early roughly 2.5x its budget to break even. Can change depending on marketing and where a movie makes its money (domestic, international, or china). Not every dollar a movie makes at BO goes to the studios.

[@felipesaballos658]

It's crazy how he made a video analysis on box office numbers without knowing that

[@whodatboi2567]

In fairness, we can extrapolate a lot about a franchise's popularity purely from the box office numbers alone.

[@jacoblubben7307]

@@whodatboi2567 we certainly can, its just that you'll have a skewed (or very skewed) assessment if you think guardians made 600 million in profit for disney at the box office.

[@whodatboi2567]

@@jacoblubben7307 Definitely. Bob Iger's comments make sense when you look at profit but in the discussion of superhero fatigue box office numbers would be more important.

[@damienhine1861]

If reducing the amount they make means the quality of what they make improves then I'm all for it. Give us two movies and two Disney+ shows a year, make them really good and watch the enthusiasm rise and the profits come in again.

[@SuperThebillybob]

I feel like a huge part of the issue with them chasing these massive box office performances is that they killed the home video market with streaming. Like Matt Damon talked about, there used to be millions of dollars in home video sales to individual customers and rental stores and libraries, and it made smaller movies quite profitable. Streaming threw the baby out with the bathwater, devaluing individual movies and shows with low subscription costs and making audiences expect shorter and shorter windows between the theatrical release and home viewing. It's a race to the bottom as it currently works.

[@mr.fancypants666]

He's talking about leaving money on the table. When a so-so movie is going to make 800 million dollars a good movie will make 1.5 billion dollars. When similar movies now make 400 million dollars if they're so so and 800 million if they're good. It is time to take a step back. If they scale back improve the quality or at least make the movies more of an event. They'll make more, then by just turning out mid-level projects. I hope they put it into the Disney Plus shows. They have really hurt the brand .

[@VannGodfrey]

I think the very core problem that Marvel Studios is slipping into is turning their IPs over to directors & writers that were not committed or connected to the foundational comic books. I heard that Kevin Feige actually told the writer for Secret Invasion to *not* read the original comics - if that’s true, it’s a complete reversal of their previous policies. Guardians of the Galaxy didn’t succeed by ignoring the original source material - but by knowing & respecting it enough to properly present it. I’m all for outside writers & directors bringing original stories and visions - but Feige needs to have a comic-fan show runner to keep them true.

[@Prettywitchiusaka]

Agreed. I have no problem with Raimi directing a Doctor Strange film, that was a good pick. But I guarantee you the movie would’ve been better received by critics and audiences if they’d just stuck with the draft Derrickson had been using, rather than placing Michael Waldron (who doesn’t seem interested in understanding these characters) at the helm. Yeah, it wouldn’t have been exactly the same because Raimi would probably have changed things. But at least the movie would’ve been better received, nor would they have needed yo spend an extra $100 million in re-shoots.

[@demonteprice5870]

Jesus, Feige went from secretly slipping Wolverine comics to Hugh Jackman to telling the writers of Secret Invasion to not read Secret Invasion? You either die a hero...

[@ChloeAriT]

I think part of the issue with toys is fallout from covid. back in 2020 when a bunch of movies got delayed you saw toys coming out up to a full year before the actual movie and already being pulled off shelves by the time the movie actually released, so I think now people are a lot more hesitant to produce a bunch of toys in advance. hopefully as more time goes by things will normalise again, but probably not until the hollywood labour disputes are resolved.

[@JamesLawner]

I remember seeing Across the Spider-Verse toys on sale as far back as last November! Also, the Super Mario Movie had a similar situation where the Happy Meal toys came out in December (bcs that was when the movie was originally going to be released).

[@JayFingers]

Shoutout for seeing “The Blackening.” I did see it in theaters, in a packed house btw, and everyone seemed to enjoy it. As you said, it’s fun and has a good bit of social commentary, and I definitely want to see more films of that size/budget come from the studios. I know this is a video about superhero fatigue, but I wanted to drop a comment since you mentioned “The Blackening” and I don’t think it’s gotten a lot of attention.

[@TheDarksweeney]

How did they Marvel miss a Ben & Jerry's promo for Infinity War?! That was practically a license to print money!!

[@Powerman293]

The problem IMO is budgets. If superhero/quality fatigue is real, the obvious answer is to cut budgets so you can still make money from the shrinking audience. These movies would have done much better if they cost half or a quarter of what they did with the same box office.

[@mattheendpod2659]

Nando currently in my top three KZbin nerds

[@lordofninjas1]

I agree that Superhero Fatigue isn't a thing and such. Iger has been saying for a bit that they want to scale back a bit on the MCU, and they've already sort of done it, Phase 4 all together had like 17 projects, whereas Phase 5 has like 12, Phase 4 had like 8 things release a year whereas Phase 5 has like 5 things release a year, etc. He's also mentioned that not everything needs or is guaranteed a sequel anymore, which is also probably part of scaling back, you don't need to make as much so you don't need to release as much I guess is what it is. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with Iger, I'm just saying that seems to be what's happening. I also agree that if anything at Disney needs reworking it's probably Lucasfilm. the one major thing Marvel does need to work on though is making more R-rated content aside from just Deadpool 3, that's what's hurting them, whereas if they started releasing R-rated stuff in Phase 4 it probably would be in much better standing. There's a couple other things also, but I'm thinking that's what the biggest thing is they need to do.

[@Joshdabozz]

Phase 4 was 18 projects in total, and 50% of it was full of great projects IMO I Am Groot, Werewolf By Night, Guardians Holiday Special, Shang-Chi, WandaVision, Loki, Hawkeye, No Way Home, and Wakanda Forever were the Great products imo There were 3 duds and 2 very much mediocre projects in phase 4 IMO. Falcon and the winter soldier, Black Widow, and Love and Thunder were the duds, while She-Hulk and What If?… were the mediocre projects Ms. Marvel was almost peak but 1 and a half episodes were not good Moon Knight and MOM had a lot of glaring issues and caused them to be decent but nothing more Eternals IMO was underrated as fuck but I know I’m in the minority when I say I think it was good, just needed more time

[@lordofninjas1]

@@Joshdabozz ok, thank you for the review I didn't ask for or think was going to get commented.

[@felipesaballos658]

Bro doesn't know studios only get half of the box office

[@shmegara]

When Eisner came into Disney he focused on what he called movies that were "singles and doubles" - not grand slams or even home runs, but inexpensive enough to make and good enough in quality that they would be profitable, and it led the studio into the Disney Renaissance of the 90s -- there's no reason why that can't work now.

[@thatpokedude69]

I would have to disagree. A lot of the quality has gone down while the amount of projects released has gone up. They just don’t have enough time to work on these projects. Disney has been known to throw insane deadlines to the CGI teams. I believe them scaling back is going back to what marvel used to be about. Which was delivering stunning and high quality media

[@BluishGnome]

They also trained audiences to watch new movies on their streaming platforms for 2 years and now they think we’ll just come running back for all of their half-ass productions in very expensive theaters… Talk about out of touch billionaires. 😆

[@curtisshollenbeck1515]

I feel like if disney plus offered discounted movie tickets or worked with theaters to produce some "go watch this 2 ep premiere of the new show in a theater 2 weeks before full streaming" would be a good way to drive not only subscribers to plus but also retention. The app as it exists now is pretty much just exclusive disney KZbin. Although KZbin can still run music in the back ground a handful of other things to keep it from just a "video viewing platform". In short, to inovate disney plus it must perform more functions than just the one... which it has trouble with sometimes even...

[@fredskull1618]

By diversifying their characters and creators, merging different genres, deconstructing the “superhero narrative”, maybe embracing some more mature themes, and telling standalone stories, superhero films can continue to stay fresh and relevant in the future.

[@meko98743]

But that's literally exactly what Marvel have been doing. Telling more diverse stories in more out-there genres with more unique plots, in standalone stories less reliant on some tentpole event movie. The post-endgame phase has been the most imaginative and diverse the MCU has ever been. More risks means not everything's going to be a smash hit, but even among the more criticized movies and shows, I genuinely think they're nowhere near as bad as some make them out to be. This is my issue with criticism of the MCU. People criticise it for not doing a thing, but it's already clearly doing that thing. It feels like a lot of the critics don't even know what they want out of the MCU, or struggle to accept that some things under the MCU banner won't be made specifically for them.

[@fredskull1618]

@@meko98743 I totally agree. The evolution and diversity of the MCU, although it may lead to more mixed reviews, can also be seen as an indication of its maturity and willingness to experiment, which could be its key to its longevity. But nothing is guaranteed. It’s the better approach though, IMO

[@Dave102693]

@@meko98743standalone means standalone, and not add plotlines abs characters from other projects into a “standalone “ story, to blatantly advertise the next couple of movies and tv shows

[@jeromealday614]

@@meko98743 Please point me towards to these so-called diverse movies?

[@meko98743]

​@@Dave102693 Oh right. Like Shang-Chi, or Moon Knight, or Ms Marvel, or She-Hulk, or Werewolf By Night, or like Eternals? All of those movies/shows work by themselves. All of them could be enjoyed by someone who had no prior knowledge of the MCU. And all of them have vastly different concepts and tones.

[@MinotaurDIGITAL]

It's not super hero fatigue, it's bad writing fatigue. I really wish this discourse would mature already.

[@aripocki]

I think you gotta remember that using yourself as a litmus test for anything superhero related is gonna be skewed. You got good info, but the sentiment about buying action figures probably isn't shared but everyone.

[@mr.robot1538]

Studios don't take 100% of revenue from ticket sales, theatres take a share. Studios get 50% from domestic and 405 from overseas. So everything except GOTG3 lost money for disney this year due to their high budgets. Little mermaid barely broke even

[@prestonart1548]

Great video as always. At least it is about 10 seconds through it so far. 😂

[@powerincarnate6783]

It's not complicated, it is very real, just some people like to lie to themselves thinking it's about quality being bad or take movies like spiderman as example, but the thing is, a great movie of a very popular character is going to do good even if people are tired of the genre, the fatigue is seen on the normal movies that are failing now when in the past they would have been a success.

[@KatStrega]

I know this video has been up for a little bit, but as someone who is still considered "high risk" for Covid- thank you for including that in your reasoning for not immediately seeing movies when they come out. I've seen the majority of the post covid Marvel movies at a drive-in that's close to an hour away, or I wait for things to release on Disney Plus. That will probably change with The Marvels and possibly Barbie if I can get to a weekday matinee screening at some point. It's still very much a thing that exists that people need to consider in their decision making and I really appreciate that you brought it up.

[@ajh22895]

Black Widow was an interesting one. It had a good story that was grounded and interesting. But then they felt insecure about it and made an airship battle for the 3rd act

[@TrappyJenkins]

Your analysis is great if you ignore these movies used to consistently make a billion dollars. I think super hero/action movie fatigue means the easy wins are out. you cant put out a mid movie and expect people to buy it up like they used to.

[@itszirvah]

Imagine how different the narrative would be if MoM and Love & Thunder & Quantumania lived up to their potential. Last year Love & Thunder and MoM should’ve been bangers riding off the No Way Home success and hype, but they both completely disappointed a big chunk of the audience.

[@itszirvah]

I think they should stop wasting so much money on the shows. They’re spending so much on 6 episodes & almost all the shows have mixed reviews. Like you said, cutting down the budgets of all of these movies would also really help. I personally rather have 2-3 great movies a year and maybe 1 GOOD show a year. I rather be craving more and dying to go to the midnight releases bc the content is so good, than being let down several times in a year

[@daltonmeadesmith]

Don't bring MoM into this. That film is awesome, and Elizabeth Olsen gave one of the best performances in the MCU second only to her other performance in WandaVision.

[@doug176]

@@daltonmeadesmith it deserves to be brought into this. It was very disappointing and mediocre.

[@Broswald_Inc]

Special Presentations are the way to go I think and that is coming from a big fan of the Disney+ shows.

[@seanthatsit1089]

The whole pulling back on Marvel projects has more to do with the fact that Kevin Feige hasn’t been able to be in direct involvement with every project like he used to be. It’s not about success or failure of films and has to do with actually getting stuff to actually come out. The clusterf**k that is the Blade movie is happening specifically because Kevin hasn’t been able to keep all the plates spinning. There’s just too many projects for him to actually Executively Produce properly. Which has effected budgets so that is why they are scaling back.

[@rw835]

You had me at “famous yachtsman Bob Iger” hahahahha

[@linkjag]

This has been my attitude towards all the doomsday talk surrounding the box office in general. People are acting like the box office is imploding and people don't want to go to the movies. Whats actually happening is people don't want to spend 15-20 bucks on a shitty movie. All of the good ones are still doing well. This expands to the indie market as well

[@OmegaPolar15]

i dont think its just the numbers that matter. most people even mentioned that they thought guardians 3 was an exception. its that people thought that endgame felt like a finale but marvel continued to release movies and shows they thought were mediocre. superhero fatigue definitely is real for most people that are just casual that enjoy going to mcu movies with friends. thats why shows like the boys and invincible were so well liked, its a change of pace from the same formula, style, and format that every mcu movie has been for the past 6 yrs at least. most casual audiences didnt watch superhero movies for the abilities and the fact theyre superheroes, they watched bc it was popular and at least got a competent movie. marvel peaked in 2018 and 2019 and there will still be a base of fans that still like superheroes, but for them to peak again, they have to bring something new than just constantly quipping, flashy cgi, and standard plots; the formula cant work forever.

[@Hllywd06]

Your finale comment is interesting because that is kind of what led to my fatigue with the MCU, but I didn't think of it that way. It was a nice bow and everything after it has felt superfluous and not as interesting; they feel like bad spinoffs. Kind of like the "last" season of Scrubs. Why spend time on something that does not feel essential?

[@mattheendpod2659]

You’ve overlooked the cinema’s cut. It recedes from 50% typically opening weekend and China keeps a huge 80%. They at least need to triple production budget to break even on the theatrical run.

[@edd5883]

I 100% believe secret invasion is the turning point, and driver, of the MCU

[@redheadmedia7901]

Okay, so I do have my own opinion on this. This Bob Iger articles came out weeks ago so I have had time to formulate my thoughts. While I do agree that it's mostly mediocre movie fatigue, I do believe the plethora of stuff Marvel makes is leading to mediocrity. Kevin Feige was the overall king of this whole cinematic universe and with so much stuff coming from Marvel now, he's probably being cut thin. Less time to focus on specific projects like he used to have since he has to oversee all these different tv shows alongside the increasing number of movies we keep getting. I believe scaling back and giving more time to projects will help make them better movies/shows. I was a massive MCU fan and I personally believe there's only one good MCU show and that's Wandavision. I've been very disappointed with most stuff the MCU has released on Disney Plus. Given more time, more care from Feige, I'm hopeful we'll see a turnaround. And for gods sake please stop with 8 episode seasons. 12 should be a minimum.

[@bashkind97]

8 episodes? Lol, some of them barely got 6

[@josh--el]

I think a lot of the Marvel TV problems come from chopping movie scripts up into 6 episodes, so a lot of episodes don’t stand on their own. Take a page from The Boys or Invincible, even Daredevil. Each episode can stand on its own AND there’s a strong overarching story. It doesn’t have to be either/or. Star Wars had the same issue with Boba Fett and Kenobi vs season 1 and 2 of Mandalorian. You could watch one episode of Mando and get a relatively complete story, whereas no one episode of Kenobi or Fett felt nearly as satisfying. I think that’s why Loki, WandaVision, and She Hulk work better: they have episodic stories that keep you coming back while the bigger stories plays out

[@jasonmarbach]

“Famous yachtsman” is how I will now refer to Bob Iger forever, so thank you for that

[@brandondavis3431]

Guardians actors are under multi picture deals they signed back when they started so despite them being all big names now when they signed the deals they weren’t as big of stars as they are now. So I’m sure they aren’t breaking the bank.

[@theoraexplora]

the obvious thing (to me) seems to be releasing 1 movie, 1 special presentation, 1 D+ Marvel series, 1 Star Wars thing, 1 revival/remake each year. and if something rolls over from one year to the next, then it counts for both years. they need to tie the MCU together better and incentivise viewers to watch the movies by making smarter marketing pushes

[@mr_yoru5834]

I think Iger sees a problem with quality if they continue their current course. He probably wants to slow down on the Disney + shows, make the movies feel more like events, and get the special effects back up to expected quality by having fewer projects going on at once. Quality is an issue for these companies. If the quality isn't there, people will eventually stop showing up to the theaters.

[@timross5351]

Got to go with Iger on this one. If they ever get the actors back: 1 Marvel spectacular in the Summer, 1 heartwarming/breaking one in the Winter. Maybe 1 Limited Series tv show each season in various genres to shore up characters that are going to be in the movies. Give the CGI artists a break so they can do their best work.

[@BrontoSmilodon1]

5:04 well looking at your chart I see why Iger thinks they need to scale back if your only one of your hero films crack into the number 2 spot and you other is didn't crack anything above 5th place.

[@DendyJungle]

Go with me on this: audiences aren’t as fatigued regarding superhero films as Hollywood execs are. I will watch them as long as it shows that the people making it were interested in making it. When I see cheap cgi and cheap writing, it is obvious the execs were just throwing something together without any regard

[@KittyConnie5]

I appreciate the zoom in on the cat. Really know how to keep your audience happy!

[@robbieharris8758]

I like your point about consuming the Marvel movies like comics in concept, but there is one thing that doesn’t work in that logic - comics release weekly/monthly whereas movies in the same character/franchise release once every what, 3-6 years? Shang-Chi is a great example, good movie, Simu becomes a huge star, and we won’t see Shang-Chi 2 until like 2027-2028???? For audiences that ONLY care about Shang-Chi (Only reading his comic run as the analogy) will have to wait half a DECADE as opposed to a few weeks between entries. Agreed that “superhero fatigue” doesn’t really exist because Marvel/DC isn’t the only superhero game in town. The Boys and Invincible are doing gangbusters for Amazon! Really what these big companies need to do is have insular franchises run almost like separate entities by separate writers directors (like the comics or idk normal non-universe movies?) and then have your Fieges or Gunns coordinate to have the crossovers happen and canon stay in tact like the comic editorial department does for big events. Love your stuff Nando!

[@Na-mi3dx]

Personally, I think the funniest thing would be if at Disney World you had Doctor Strange doing actual magic, and Scott Lang doing real world magic like, in a lemonade stand set up to the side.

[@NEETvDetective]

That chart isn’t an accurate indicator of how money these movies are profiting. If Bob is stating that there is an issue, it’s a problem with the marketing budget or/and too high of a budget being spent on the movie without gaining the profit they are expecting. (Those are numbers that don’t get shared) Disney can’t run on breaking even or just barely earning above total spend on a movie. Just because Disney is on this list doesn’t mean they are raking in the cash.

[@sleeepy3]

Bro does not understand how film profits work

[@Patriots571994]

I’m getting fatigued of people talking about superhero fatigue. I think there are what maybe 12 comic book films to come out all of 2023 there’s been at least 15 major release horror movies to come out this year so far. Nobody talks about horror movie fatigue. I like what marvel is doing but with over 40 projects it’s bound that some are going to be better than others or people won’t enjoy it and that’s fine. But you can’t say there’s fatigue when they just released one of their best films in guardians 3 lol

[@AshyfeetDotCom]

You make great points. It's like " If these movie returns don't satisfy Disney, Disney don't want to.... oh.

[@Derekivery]

Fun fact about movie budgets I wish was taught in film schools or whatever. The original ghostbusters film adjusted for inflation budget was 88 million and made 866 million the 2016 ghostbusters (adjusted for inflation) budget was 183 million and made 380 million I say that to point out, there is no evidence, none, that spending more automatically gets you more in profits

[@Hllywd06]

What about the 2021 one?

[@Derekivery]

@@Hllywd06 don't know. It's not relevant to my point.

[@bexyPTX]

I get what you're saying, but I feel like Guardians 3 is a bit of an exception because it's a conclusion to a well-liked series that isn't tied in that deeply to the MCU (for the most part). I think the real test will be how well The Marvels does, because it's following up on characters that aren't generally as widely loved (and so far two out of the three leads have effectively only been seen in the TV shows so far). I'm praying that that movie is good so that it has a chance of being up there with the higher-grossing movies of the year. If it doesn't do well, though, that's really when Disney is going to have to rethink how Marvel content is coming out. That said, I think the quality and performance of Quantumania is a pretty good indicator of the cracks in the system. Your analysis of the over-inflated budgets of Marvel projects is very fair, though.

[@TheMrFishnDucks]

Yeah the market has gotten rid of the middle budget movies they are now all tent-pole or bust. They definitely need to cut down on the length needs to a tight 90. My final point is they need to get rid of FOMO that you need to watch the TV shows to understand these movies or have a improved experience. Nice video. Keep up the good work.

[@FortunaMajorACappella]

Do we think there's a chance the studio is preempting a shakeup of the planned releases? During the strikes they'll cut projects and claim that it has nothing to do with them; they're just restructuring their schedule to avoid "fatigue". It may also be a way for them to get rid of Jonathan Majors (or the Kang stuff entirely) without having to make a huge to-do about it.

[@damoncorforte_2215]

saying HALLE BAILEY isn’t a household name is a bit wild i won’t lie

[@alvarovello8799]

There's Superhero Fatigue, just not the way you describe I work in Movie marketing and all superhero movies ALL except Spiderverse under perform compared to the company expectations. The Superhero fatigue doesn't mean that there isn't anymore succesful superhero projects, it means that it isn't a safe bet anymore, any superhero movie can flop nowadays which it wasn't an issue before DC has been in a flop chain recently and Marvel is not safe from it yet. We will see how this develops good video tho

[@pickles168]

This video is the equivalent of the scene in the Simpsons where the spitroast pig is flying through increasingly bad things, while Homer continues to claim "Its still good"

[@QuaePanemEtCircenses]

3:45 im here from the future & was gunna mention barbenheimer but you predicted it!

[@impatientinc.9332]

I just realized I had a Ben Riley action figure as a kid. It was his classic spidey suit variant with the webshooter bracers

[@WouldYouKindlyNot]

I have a feeling The Marvels is gonna be a surprise hit (not as in no one knows about it, I mean as in people arent expecting it to be GOTG3 big). Brie Larson has tons of fans, she also has her haters which will propel the box office when they go to hate watch it, Iman Vellani is becoming the new RDJ of the MCU, and then Teyonah is fantastic in her own right (Even if Monica might have to think about some of her Wandavision decisions xD ). Their chemistry is going to be phenomenal. We also need more Werewolf by Night. That was 50 minutes of pure bliss. Gold. It was a wonderful homage. It's tone was perfect. The actors and writing were amazing. FRICKEN MAN-THING. We need Werewolf by Night's quality more.

[@jeromealday614]

Ezra Miller also has millions of haters so there's that 😬

[@WouldYouKindlyNot]

@@jeromealday614 Ezra Miller was doing super messed up stuff to people, attacking people, and seemingly committing crimes. Brie Larson is just an awesome person who happens to be a feminist, which is why the jabronis hate her. So there's a clear difference

[@madjangler]

You gotta do those classes on Flash and Fury of the Gods. Maybe a Nebula exclusive?

[@marshsundeen]

I am still enjoying the Disney+ shows and will drop my subscription if Star Wars and Marvel are cut back. That is why I have subscribed. Those are my main interests too. Doctor Who is coming to Disney+ as well. It takes a lot to get me in a theater these days.

[@Heavymetal-u6m]

I think that the MCU has just become complacent. They don’t feel the need to differentiate their movies and shows anymore with some exceptions. (Eternals, Black Panther Wakanda Forever, Wandavision) I don’t think Marvel scaling back on their productions is going to help that much. I do think that Marvel should take their time and just release their movies and shows when they’re ready. Give VFX artists more time to work and better working conditions, bring and in directors with unique visions. I don’t think superhero fatigue is real. I just think bad superhero movie fatigue is real though. I hope Marvel can get their act together. We have had some pretty good movies and shows in the last two phases but I think Marvel needs to be more consistent with their movies and shows. I hope Captain America Brave New World, Thunderbolts and Kang Dynasty are good. I know Deadpool And Wolverine is going to be fantastic because it has Hugh Jackman Wolverine and anything with Hugh Jackman playing Wolverine is amazing. Yes even X-Men Origins Wolverine. Love the suit and his dynamic with Deadpool.

[@calvinjohnson6242]

A lot of people said they wanted to see Guardians 3 and would never see another Marvel movie again, unless it got great reviews. Because they trusted James Gunn, but not the rest of Marvel. So you should factor that in.