Is the Honkai: Star Rail Meta THAT BAD? | HSR new/old character Discussion.

[@Arewaaaa]

The powercreep kinda worries me given how would newer players try to catch up once they reach the endgame

[@mooseoncaffeine]

@@Arewaaaa it's completely fine for newer players. Newer players would just pull for the newer characters. Its mainly just an issue for older players who want to keep using their older units.

[@ursulcx299]

@@mooseoncaffeine as a new player... not really? Yeah you can get a few good units, but you'll be missing out key characters for a while to make a team actually work. It really feel like im playing a different game then older player because i wasnt there to get the character they have.

[@MoltenCheesetart]

​@@ursulcx299 to be more accurate, you simply haven't built your characters as they did. If you have only built your newest 5 star and put some halfway built supports, you wont get expected results even if your team is exactly the same. The very reason is that day 1 players had more stamina accumulated than you, that's it

[@gachamanmuse]

As a newer player back in 2.3, it's not too bad. By the time I got to 2.5, I managed to pull a full Firefly team and 3/4ths of Feixiao's best team. Firefly carried me through enough of the game and Feixiao helped clear more Endgame content. Once I get Adventurine, difficulty will be nearly non-existent.

[@Pack52022]

​@@ursulcx299I started when ratio was given free, missed out on ruan mei sadly

[@AevyCh]

Fugue is pretty much just meant for you to switch MC's Path for the new Planet. I'm still waiting for Xueyi showcase with Fugue since she fixes all the problems with her kit (especially with the Break Playstyle).

[@SOSTOL_CAT]

True, I'll be pulling for her just for Xueyi

[@Pack52022]

Thank goodness I am not crazy for building xuenyi and Himeko for break since they the only solid DPS characters I have for break teams without ruan mei. Once I finish their traces I plan to farm the superbreak domain for them both

[@daitoushoutou]

Yup. 3.0 MC, rumored to be a Remembrance ice HP scaling after damage dealer who summons a Servant, or on-field summon, indicates at least two new 3.x meta: Servant summon meta; and HP scaling meta. The new 3.0+ Path of Remembrance appears to be associated with units who summon Servants, like Masters and Servants in the long-running JP multimedia Fate series.

[@mooseoncaffeine]

Oh yeah I completely forgot about that. Great point.

[@dante19890]

Fugue will make it easier to play break when it's not gonna be favoured in 3.X

[@spice2688]

I disagree about not comparing HSR and Genshin because Genshin has been out longer. I would actually say the time they have been released is the *most* relevant thing you could talk about in regards to comparing powercreep in these games. In 4 years the damage ceiling and scaling of Genshin is not even close to how insane it's gotten in HSR already. At this rate by the time HSR is 4 years old, every character will be doing MILLIONS of damage, and every SU challenge will be in the billions. We aren't even that far off as is considering we are in the upper hundred thousands for some characters in MOC, and DU it's super common to be getting numbers in the 100s of millions.

[@kennethyoung7457]

New teams already capable of millions of dmg per cycle at E0S0 these days playing old team like Jingyuan, Bronya, TIngyun and Luocha feels like a 4 star only team compared to Superbreak, Acheron, or Followup now.

[@spice2688]

@@kennethyoung7457 You're definitely right. Specifically I am talking about per hit numbers though, at this rate we will be in the 10s of millions per cycle and several million per hit lol

[@mr.protagonist5639]

Genshin is pretty much always a bad example to compare gacha to but especially turn based ones. The power creep of genshin is something most games can't replicate and turn based games definitedly can't. But one of the reasons Hsr is power creeping worse than some other turn based gacha is other turned based games tend to make two different types of characters pvp and pve centered which staggers the power creep. For example a new debuffer wouldn't work well in raids but would be a nightmare in pvp while the new dps that has damage which scales with the enemy hp is clearly meant for bosses. These two characters would be about as strong as eachother but geared towards different things. Without that dichotomy all power creep is for pve content so characters get power crept twice as fast.

[@spice2688]

@mr.protagonist5639 You're definitely right, Genshin had a unique set of circumstances (including not being turn based) that heavily curb power creep. However, I still think that it's fair to compare the rates at which power creep happens between the two. You'd expect there to be a gap, but not one *this* large. I do definitely agree comparing to other turn based gachas is apt. I also see your point about pvp, not something I had considered

[@mooseoncaffeine]

I myself compared Genshin and HSR in two videos before, I compare these two games more than anybody. I just wouldn't compare them about this topic specifically. If we take the period when Dendro came out in Genshin, just like this period when Superbreak came out (they're both easily accessible OP mechanics) we can see that powercreep was an insane issue during both times. Enemy health in the Abyss also doubled after Neuvillettes release, just like enemy health in the MoC doubled after Feixiaos release. Problem is, Genshin is much more "skill based" than HSR because you have to dodge and attack quickly while HSR is just skill and basic and ult when you can, so they have more chances to make enemies "stronger" without just sponging their HP, which is exactly NOT what they did. (Though don't get me wrong Genshin is still incredibly easy.)

[@SentisYATTA]

Hsr’s meta is just like hi3rd’s. knowing that, it won’t change Plus I forgot u existed

[@mooseoncaffeine]

I'll be making a follow up video about this topic. I've got more things I want to say about it. Omg same I forgot I existed too.

[@SOSTOL_CAT]

True, that shit powercrept as hell. It's a great game but it makes me wanna quit every time I deal -2 damage

[@krazyaim]

​@@SOSTOL_CAT Sunday kinda killed my will to play. Every character I pulled feels obsolete already

[@4Feiao]

Well, I must say that Hoolay can also be defeated with not much problem by Clara, I'm a Clara main and dont really struggle with Hoolay, In fact, I struggle more with the 2 enemys in Hoolay's first phase. This happens because Clara, just like Yunli, Does more damage the more the enemys attack them. And Hoolay, omg... He's a never ending performance in attacks indeed. So why am I saying this? because this is a exemple of character that is not super relevant in the meta, but still has huge room for improvement. Clara's best support would be someone who advances enemys turn and/or makes them act faster. But we still dont have them Not only that, but we are in a meta of breaks, and Clara in horrible for break, especially a one enemy only. Her Skill and Normal attack does same break damage, and her follow up (if not in ult) too. But this is a actually a good thing, because you rather do not break your enemy as Clara, because once you do, you start doing literally 0 damage. So shes a Character that does not have a good time breaking, and when she does, she cannot do damage... In a meta where break is the most importante feature... Yeah, she's not having a good time, but is not beacause shes week, but she simply does not have a place in the meta yet, or a dedicated support. And that's what I think most old characters have in commun, their problem is simply not have a dedicated support and being in a bad state of a meta nowdays. Well, there are exceptions... I dont think that Yanqing can ever be good :/ Just maybe, if they do a support that allows you to double crit, and once you have surpacced a certain amount of crit you stated doing "special damage" or something like that. And cus he can get so much crit, he would finally see daylight. But I dont think this will ever happen... But hey, Yanqing enjoyers, never loose hope, like me, I'm still waiting for someone to advance enemys turns But for the rest of characters, like DHIL, DoT, Blade, etc. I actually think they can be saved. They just need a dedicated support and a favorable meta. Like, Superbreak has already a peak team, Firefly, MC, Ruan Mei, Lingsha. But other teams still need to use scuffed supports... Like, I play DHIL, and one of DHIL best teams would be with Tingyun and Huohuo, along side sparkle. But I cannot play anything else outside Gallagher and Ruan Mei, or else I cannot break enemies. And Breaking enemies nowdays is more important then doing damage, so is not like a really have a choice. Especially in Apocalyptic Shadow, if you do not have a good time breaking and doing damage after breaking, them you're out. You would think that because is a boss fight, hunt characters would be good at, but in fact, even if you play himeko as long as it is super break, you will do one million more damage then any Seele non-break team out there. But well, after all this, I actually think the solution will be quite simple. They will do enemies with super tough break bars and/or make enemies that cannot be broken ultil they do something or we deal certain amount of damage. Or even would make they get out of break state in a blink of an eye. And when this happens finally Hook, the Great, will be SS+ Tier (Clueless)

[@mooseoncaffeine]

I think a great solution in my opinion would be to have special enemies, like bosses or elites, enter a special "recovery phase" if broken where you'll have to defeat smaller enemies that spawn in when the boss/elite is entering this phase, this Superbreak would be completely useless against this enemy while everything else isn't.

[@irena4929]

"Stand proud sparkle you are strong"

[@mooseoncaffeine]

Sunday has about 5 things he has to say about that

[@AevyCh]

Don't worry, she will be relegated to Basic ATK only after this. 😂 (+7 SP is pretty neat) It's the only thing left she's best at (not even Gallagher can generate this much SP)

[@irena4929]

​@@mooseoncaffeine and thats one of them iykyk😏

[@nebula8851]

Powercreep isn't necessarily the issue. It's Break and FUA (and specifically FIREFLY Break) being favoured at the expense of everything else, not just in buffs, but also character releases, relics, etc. We're now in a position where the shiny new Limited 5 star Break Support that's a return of a super-popular character, might not even be good enough to see play, and FUA has enough characters to clear BOTH SIDES of endgame if you're willing to compromise on Robin. My honest advice? Pull Sunday. Get in early on the Summon meta, because they 100% will go all-in on it like they did FUA.

[@laidant6544]

I also struggled against Hoolay... until i threw Clara, Moze, Robin, and Huohuo together. First wave took like 4 cycles but the second took less than 2 💀

[@krzysztofwisniewski8325]

Yeah, the way they mixed enemies with physical res and physical weak boss is annoying.

[@mooseoncaffeine]

Yeah I forgot to mention Clara. Yunli is definitely so much better but since Clara can do almost exactly what she does Clara is pretty good against hoolay too.

[@variareaver4658]

I’ve been on a mission to explain my philosophy of the current state of star rail across several different channels and this will be no different! I will keep ranting until people understand! The most based conclusion of Star rail’s combat is that the old characters suck, the old ways they played suck, and they should be abandoned to the curb in favor of “powercreeped” but complex units that fit into archetypes that can play dynamically with the game. (Except dot I like dot just give them support) 95% of optimal teams (using a sustain) over Star rail’s first year of history is almost entirely homogeneous. (The 5% being Kafka) Hypercarry Crit dps / pure support / pure support / sustain. THIS TRASH being the default and dominant team setup creates about 5 separate problems. Offensive play is limited to one unit in the team, other units at this time were fairly incapable of changing the outcomes of battles because they didn’t have outside roles such as sub-dps, sub-tank, breaker, or other attempted sustain adjacent roles such as slower and didn’t have enough SP to properly run as sub-dps anyway. This puts the burden of how you can offensively interact with the game itself onto one unit that only changes places depending on what pure supports they can and can’t use. Which is why old dps have a horrible time dealing with new more complex bosses. When the boss doesn’t let you brute damage it, characters like Jingliu are garbage and require significantly more effort to use. The failure of sustain adjacent roles puts all the burden of sustains onto one unit. Requiring the sustain unit to competently and efficiently deal with in between turns, while also not using too much SP, while also being able to deal with volatile debuffs when required. This ended in sustain design mostly being a non-question when they can deal with these problems with little effort aka Aventurine although I like HuoHuo because she’s more dynamic and decision based. Harmonies to this day have shit design, they stand there, have no dynamic play, but are also the most dominant characters in the entire game. The fact that a tiny subsection (literally 3 units at launch with 2 of them being commonly used) of the game saw near 100% usage rates on all meta teams should tell you just how unintentional their pure dominance was. I call any double harmony comp “Order” because harmony alone is carrying along whatever you’re using with very few combat changes. Harmony is so broken and other units have such non-existent roles due to their roles being hi-jacked by the efficiency and dominance by a harmony that scales one stat, bulk, and speed that Acheron uses sparkle instead of a 2nd nihility at E0 because it outscales her giant modifier increase because her other nihility options that aren’t Jiaoqiu are trash. Acheron isn’t falling off because she’s worse modifier wise than newer units, Acheron is falling off because her option select is terrible without eidolon and Lc investment. Harmonies break the flow of gameplay and ability for your team to maneuver by not having dynamic play, but are necessary because enemies are scaled around THEIR damage, additionally cycling in and out depending on the highest modifier dps they buff. They are the sub-dps, the sub-tank, occasionally the breaker, occasionally just a copy of your hypercarry that buffs them in the meantime (bronya sparkle.) They have every role in the game but have to catalyze onto a dps and are worthless alone. Harmonies also tend to hi-jack the usefulness of universal mechanics most notably break which is entirely defined by the Harmony, Nihility, Abundance, and (theoretically) Preservation roles. Which is conceptually fine if those units can use break dynamically, but unfortunately the break harmonies are still almost as boring and helpless without a catalyst but dominant with one as the harmonies that came before them. “Also the problem with break is Ruan Mei being a universal sub-dps with no downtime, and 0 requirements other than needing the catalyst to break. For instance the only reason why Jingliu was better than Daniel was because Jingliu used bronya comfortably while Daniel did not. Nowadays Jingliu is weak because her only comfortable harmony IS STILL Bronya and the fact that she has 0 team synergy, she became extremely weak while Daniel got slightly more mileage from Sparkle. To prove my position, other than Robin being broken, why is Feixiao offensive fua the single comp in the game that can reasonably play with 0-1 Harmonies? Because they have increased dynamic play with increased range to deal with enemy mechanics, a small but effective toolbox of units that can be used that have tangible and usable roles besides pure buffers with sub-dps even if the optimal team includes Robin, because internally the burden of offense has been spread further than the catalyst. The old hypercarries are incapable of doing well with non-harmonies because they are designed to take all the buffs and the characters around them are too SP inefficient to be sustained. Resulting in a drab, linear, and currently extremely weak team. The generic hypercarry team meta with no archetype in sight lasting for one entire year was the single worst thing that happened to the star rail meta and I believe every old dps should be left behind unless they can make a dynamic archetype for them that doesn’t include terribly designed double harmony order cores. Ideally either with their unique mechanics such as making high SP usage anything other than +4 SP harmony adjacent or making mono element actually real and dynamic. Tldr: Old character design failed to make many roles or team comp styles with Harmonies and pure support posers Pela and Wolf being the most dominant but non-dynamic unit type taking not one but TWO team slots at all times because they were more important than real internal dps synergy or role division. The powercreep of the game is going in a direction that does not strictly abide by one unit deals all the damage rules and this is far healthier for the game unless the devs are somehow convicted to latch on and string along the old dps with generic harmonies that jack the damage and team requirements up further.

[@mooseoncaffeine]

I haven't read the whole thing, just the TL;DR, but I gotta say you make an incredibly good point. I'm making a follow-up video to this one, and I'll include this comment, thank you!

[@rolandblack7846]

As a boothill main, i used to think it was unfair that they pushed superbreak unto fire and imaginary units but now I see why. Once they decide to move to a different meta, all they gotta do is give the enemies a shit ton of fire and imaginary resistance 😂

[@mooseoncaffeine]

@@rolandblack7846 hoyo making Superbreak op only to give enemies 40% fire and imaginary res in 3.0:

[@irena4929]

Boothill just dodged a bullet there 😂(totally not pun intended)

[@dreamsandhopes6802]

Yeah but if we get more sparkle-sunday difference levels for the new summon meta yeah... It's kinda duped. I already think emanator herta would be hitting 1+million to 5 enemies(if the case is 800 for rappa)

[@mooseoncaffeine]

If Amphoreus enemies don't have resistances to superbreak or anything that counters superbreak, then absolutely there will actually be a scaling problem. However I don't see how they'd sell new characters just because they have high multipliers and not nerf superbreak by creating enemies that are resistant.

[@ayusha480]

Do you have any other background footage besides cutscenes and end-game gameplay?

[@mooseoncaffeine]

I don't know man, what else is there? 😭

[@8lolbit59]

Cool vid but I feel like hsr is going in a bad direction with the powercreep and I just refuse to play until they repair powercreep.

[@xuk6042]

That's like trying to squeeze blood into a stone 😂

[@soaringdragon3972]

You're gonna get left behind

[@ktstorms5285]

that will never happen since a unit that does not powercreep , community complains that it is not worth to pull . People want the most powerful units but will then complain about powercreep. it is funny

[@GodofGoblins]

Almost all gacha has power creep, it is inevitable. Here is the thing. You can beat end game content without meta. Yes you can. People are doing it with pure 4 stars bruh. Will you be 0 cycling like feixiao? No. But can you get 3 stars and get the rewards with dot or hyper carry? Yup, absolutely. I do it all the time. And no money spent. But it will take you more than 1 cycle, I'm sorry. I even saw someone beat end game content with freaking Hook hyper carry. Just gotta get creative and build right.

[@mooseoncaffeine]

I don't think that's happening. If you like the game you're better off keeping farming for the next character, honestly. I'll be making a follow up video about this.

[@ВладиславБериславский]

Fugue worse than Ruan Mei and HMC for Firefly? Well, hold my tears trying to pull out sustainless comp

[@mooseoncaffeine]

@ВладиславБериславский actually, she's even worse than lingsha in the team of FF, HMC, Ruan Mei, Lingsha. Lingsha of course provides debuffs and sustainability and damage. Fugue doesn't provide that much more damage than Lingsha would.

[@ВладиславБериславский]

@mooseoncaffeine tell this to my c4 yanqing 😂😂😂

[@ВладиславБериславский]

@mooseoncaffeine shortly speaking yeah, I failed to got lingsha, and now I'm on a crossroad, Aventurine, Sunday, Fugue, I can get only 2 of them

[@Atlas-ig7zs]

Do boothill vs firefly

[@mooseoncaffeine]

I've already done something similar to that. Check out my video list 🫡

[@Atlas-ig7zs]

@mooseoncaffeine ok can you tell me the name of the video

[@mooseoncaffeine]

@@Atlas-ig7zs there's "Who is the best DPS in Honkai: Star Rail" and "Is Yunli a top 5 DPS" which both discuss this topic.

[@Phantica]

I have faith in hsrs devs for now but 3.0 patches will be very make or break for the future of the meta people are complaining now and I don’t understand why there are a plethora of characters to clear with but if they continue in this direction every character we use today could become unusable in favour of newer ones and if that happens I’ll complain like everyone else

[@jerryeljeremy7790]

Yep it's bad. Not that bad tho. People felt like smart chimps when using the word "powercreep" that they don't realize this exist in every gacha games. And LOT of those games are powercreep hell.

[@mooseoncaffeine]

I'll be making a follow up video about this topic. There's much more I have to say. I agree with your comment 100%

[@kian-ganji]

Superbreak was not a mistake That's like saying hyperbloom was a mistake It's just an easier and more convenient way to clear content without having to out a shit ton ot resources in your team Not anyone can spend money to get the shiny Eidelons or lightcones or get every single meta character when they are releasing 2 characters per patch

[@mooseoncaffeine]

@kian-ganji Superbreak in its core was a great idea, this mistake was making it as powerful as it is. HMC should've been 50 to 75% as strong as they are right now, then Fugue should've been what HMC is now. I agree that every game needs to have an easy way to do damage, but Hyperbloom and Superbreak were both way too powerful and they sped up the powercreep curve way too much. However I have more to say about this topic, I'm making another video about it right now.

[@variareaver4658]

@@mooseoncaffeineI really don’t think the problem with superbreak is superbreak itself. While the way Hatblazer conveys superbreak as a buff is flawed… It’s Ruan Mei. The problem is Ruan Mei. 50% break efficiency by using a skill that lasts for 3 turns and lasts for 3 turns at start of combat is her only relevant buff for damage. The thing is that toughness damage is homogenized based on attack type and without Ruan Mei you’d have to consider using 2 or more of a “breaker” role that acts as a sub-dps driver. The problem is that Ruan Mei’s buff is a “sub-dps” form that buffs ALL toughness damage regardless of who’s it coming from as long as it’s hitting weakness with basically 0 requirement for hitting specific weakness. Ruan Mei ruined the archetype, because it’s next to impossible to make her role dynamic. Additionally I should add that I think the problem with break as an archetype is that without characters that modify the way break can be used, break is extremely weak and next to unusably bad on its own.

[@ChristianPrince-1]

@@mooseoncaffeine The problem is Boss and Elite HP inflation by 200% without buffing older units, Genshin could never reach this kind of level power creep