Is There A Successful Facelift? - The Carmudgeon Show w Jason Cammisa & Derek Hyphen - Ep 101

Has any automotive facelift ever made a car better than its original design?
This episode of the Carmudgeon show is sponsored by Lucid Motors, who has special lease and finance offers on available 2023 models of the Lucid Air Touring and Grand Touring. Visit lucidmotors.com for offer details.
What Carmudgeon episode would complete without a discussion of Bruno Sacco's Mercedes masterpieces, including the W201, W124, W140, and R129?
Then, there's the Ferrari lineage: 246 Dino to 308 GTB to 328 GTB to 348 tb to F355.
And perhaps the most successful facelift ever, the Bangle-Butt BMW E65/E66 7-series - which was vastly more successful in showrooms after BMW"s "LCI," or "Life Cycle Impulse," BMW-speak for a facelift.
There's the Mk1 Volkswagen Golf, with the Clipper Kit Cabriolet and the Citi versions, the BMW E30, the Jaguar Series III to XJ40 to X300 to X308.
And what if all the Radwood-era cars only got prettier because of relaxed and harmonized bumper standards, like the W116 Mercedes S-Class did when it was replaced with the W126.
Discussed is also the Lamborghini Countach, Renault R5 Turbo, Lancia Integrale and Evo.
And of course the Ferrari Testarossa Monospecchio, turned into the Testarossa, the 512TR, and ultimately 512M.
How about BMW's prime era of the E38 and E39 and E46? The original Chevrolet Cavalier? The ovoid Taurus? Or just the Miata NC Miata, in NC1, NC2, and NC3 revisions?
It's all an interesting discussion and a fun brain-dump from two curmudgeonly car experts, one of whom probably needs a facelift himself soon.
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The Carmudgeon Show is part of the Hagerty Podcast Network.

[@Petrol_fix]

I know this is a pain, but when discussing niche differences on LCI/facelift models… as many visuals as possible please. Thank you :) loved this episode

[@PENGUINIAN1995]

I was on google images this whole episode 😂

[@Petrol_fix]

Same!!!

[@Heyitsallgoodman]

This should have been all inserts, you wouldn't even have time to show their faces

[@ebauer427]

Pontiac Fiero. 'nuff said. It was continuously facelifted throughout it's life and it ended in a much better looking place than when it started.

[@justaddafan]

I still think the '88 GT and Formula are handsome cars even today.

[@somethingmustwork2]

This was the first car I thought of regarding this topic. Completely agree.

[@MagicM93]

mk7.5 gti was an improvement over the mk7 gti. however i prefer the early R over the facelift

[@evansmith3385]

So glad I'm not the only one. It's the only reason I got a mk7 instead of a 7.5 R

[@petergrasso4294]

Loved the e46 facelift. The exhaust no longer complete hidden, hood has better lines, better headlights, and the bumper no longer looks like a bunch of horizontal bars

[@AimPointMG]

The E90 facelift is also much better imo

[@thomasxl200]

Big agree there. Feel the same way with the E39 but I had a facelift E39 so I'm biased

[@ethanallan1254]

I also like the f80 facelift

[@xio4739]

I 100% agree

[@keith6360]

Was about to comment e46. But also e38, e39 and e90.

[@raduapostu6746]

Nice geeky episode! I would also consider the Peugeot 406 Coupe, since the pre-facelift version, the original Pininfarina design, seems to be more coherent with the correctly sized air intake into the bumper. The later version just seems to have a silly smile - or just better cooling, but no aesthetic benefit.

[@michaelking6596]

The triumph TR sports range is the king of facelift on the same architecture. They kept the same separate chassis and inner panels from the 50s to 70s...and each evolution made it relevant and an appreciable design step at the time. 50s TR2 3 in-house British design, 60s TR4 5 michelotti italian, 70s TR6 kamn German The 4 to 6 even use the same screen roof and doors

[@justaddafan]

They were all cool looking but I like the TR6 the most.

[@fonzolatrundo9140]

Less delicate, more masculine. Redline tires and a Union Jack, straight six… the TR6 always looked sharp to me. The TR7 on the other hand…

[@jimiverson3085]

Now if they could only have update the ladder frame and truck suspension setup. But when they tried with the TR7, it all went to hell.

[@mehdimohamed6291]

05-06 Acura RSX sharpened it up from the 02-04 so much inside and out. And had genuine mechanical improvements to boot.

[@DC5Brandon]

I actually like the instrument cluster and front lights in the 02-04 RSX more than the 05-06, but the rear lights do look better in the 05-06. Curious how some people's tastes differ from each other.

[@Audi30V]

I also prefer the early cluster. But I think the newer lights are much cleaner.

[@NoClassic]

I feel like Honda and Acura have had a number of successful ‘facelifted’ models.

[@Talynen]

The later years of the Acura RSX (Honda Integra DC5) I think look better, for example. Not coming up with anything else from memory.

[@thejword72]

2007-2008 Acura TL is better than 2004-2006

[@rahulmandala4930]

@@thejword72 I saw an Orange facelift TL and it looked surprisingly modern. One of their best designs….

[@NoClassic]

@@Talynen DC2 and EK came to mind for me.

[@Talynen]

@@NoClassic Yeah Im not familiar enough with the changes from those facelifts to have an opinion on them. I've seen some other comments mention the 6th gen Civic, so it's probably a good example.

[@richowdhury8249]

The Alfa 166 springs to mind. I don't know what substances the original designer had in their system at the time but the facelift drastically improved the front end in my eyes. Mechanical updates were well received too

[@OaksCU1]

There's something about the tiny headlights on the pre-facelift 166 I really like, I can't say it looks good but there's something endearing about it.

[@Suprahampton]

156 also

[@benzinapaul7416]

@@Suprahampton The 156, 147, 916 GTV/Spider facelifts were backward steps but agree the 166 was an improvement

[@horatiul117]

I will take the unique looks of the unfacelifted 166 over the more generic front end of the later cars.

[@richowdhury8249]

@@OaksCU1 I understand you there. It's like taking in a sad, injured puppy, even before you start you're already slightly attached

[@samuelorellana2603]

More often than not, I prefer facelifted models. A powerful example to the contrary: F-Type

[@Busy_Child]

I like my 2012 W204 C63, facelift with a better transmission, interior, and coupe option. I know many people prefer looks of the pre facelift though. I also think the .2 of the last several 911 generations improved on the .1 versions, it'll be interesting to see what they do for the 992.

[@rahulmandala4930]

And that M156 too! Lovely thing, that beast! Revs to 8,000 RPMs and sounds like the authentic mix where a deep rumbling American-V8 (with a German touch) at idle meets happily revving to the moon.

[@porscherain]

M156 is legendary

[@user-gz3qd3jn4r]

W212 got a facelift around the same time and to me both are great improvements

[@Themayseffect]

W204 interior change was worse on the version 2 imo. Thanks to the recession they got rid of the beautiful hidden screen because it cost too much. Other than that not much changed inside. Exterior upgrades are questionably better .

[@zijadjasarspahic5275]

My absolute favorite podcast ever, been here from the beginning. ❤

[@harryokona]

Please get Tom on the podcast so we can have the nerdiest automotive discussion ever recorded

[@TheRjacob82]

Hi gents, I love the show. I have a request. When doing the inserts could you leave them up a little longer? Otherwise, keep up the great work.

[@Trendyflute]

The E90 facelift is a massive improvement over the original. And the Mk6 Golf is arguably a big facelift of the Mk5 that I think made a significant improvement, even if I've grown to like the Mk5 more over the years, the Mk6 is a really refined and timeless design. And K.D. Lang is awesome!!

[@assininecomment1630]

K.D. Lang? Yes! I'm Strayan, and listen to mo country music ever - but Lang is as highly talented and compelling a singer, as I have _ever_ heard. 😮 A both beautiful and brilliant voice! 💯

[@space_cadet7782]

LS430 Facelift, substantial improvement both visually and mechanically

[@toothferrin]

This episode is a non-stop flex of your collective off the cuff knowledge. You guys just constantly rattled off knowledge without looking at any pictures. Well done.

[@britboy70]

I had a a couple of mark 1 sciroccos and always found them to be prettier than the mark 2 and I think VW saw that too based on the way my Corrado resembled my mark 1.

[@kevinandrew_]

Even just based on cars I currently own - 99-00 Civic looks way better than 96-98 (+gained the EM1), NC2/3 Miata look way better than my NC1

[@stephankyle6460]

Finally someone else appreciates the early 90s camry. My dad still drives a v6 xle he bought new in that wine red you showed with those wheels. Always thought it was a very handsome car.

[@pablolozanoalonso573]

when talking about the integrated bumper thing, i would argue porsche did it earlier than mercedes with the 928 in 78, especially with the rear bumper

[@OctavChelaru]

Best facelift I can think of is the B5.5 Passat coming from B5. Huge visual impact for the scope of changes. Not a VW guy but can still appreciate it.

[@FugakuVIII]

You guys missed a fun one: DC2-era Integra. US ones had the quad headlights throughout the lifespan, but in Japan it wasn't well liked and they got facelifted to a straight bar headlight. I like the quads personally. 5th Gen Celica GT4s got a widebody later in production which looks better. But then it got another facelift right at the end which wasn't meh

[@joepafjiga9015]

I love this episode!! I love Jason's midwest accent so much, (coming from a Midwestern; Michigander).

[@indiebekonn]

G30/F90. Facelift is the prettiest BMW since the E12. And seems like the last good good looking BMW, at least for the foreseeable future.

[@user-gz3qd3jn4r]

Honestly i prefer most new-ish mercedes facelifts (late 90s-2010s), i think the most improtant for me is w212 but all the ones getting a bigger grill are also quite better looking to me (w220, 211, 221)

[@brandonsever2576]

I kept thinking of the '02-'07 Subaru impreza. Subaru guys call them bugeye ('02, '03), blobeye ('04, '05), and hawkeye ('06+). Personally I think they got better looking with every revision, but I'm also one of those weird people that finds all of them decent looking lol

[@MegaMrWookiee]

Counterpoint - The bugeye had the best seats, the cleanest taillight design, and the headlights looked like comical angry eyes when turned on.

[@brandonsever2576]

@@MegaMrWookiee I agree on everything except the taillights. My first car was an '03 WRX and I always wanted the '04-'05 taillights. The headlights were my favorite part because of how boldly they stuck out, though I would definitely say they got prettier and less striking in the later years

[@DriverIncredible]

As the former owner of a pre-facelift E90, I agree that the LCI was a spectacular upgrade. The slightly flared rear arches, taillights and sculpted bonnet turned it into a proper 159 competitor (on looks - it was always way better to drive). Derek’s comment on the W124 90s softening resonates with me. I feel like there’s a halfway facelift (possibly not in the American market) that looks better than the early and late cars. Agree that the original E46 headlight design was better than either facelift. Probably the most famous emergency facelift was Peter Stevens turning the Bugeye WRX into the Blobeye. I think the STi Bugeye headlights transform that car, but Stevens managed to disguise the more upright windscreen and give the impression of a beefier GC8.

[@jono6379]

Please film your roving rover roadtrip I would love to witness the madness

[@christopherhuff4221]

I totally agree… might not be able to breath by the end though😂

[@Moli571]

it ended a coupled of days , it's on their IG

[@jono6379]

@@Moli571 😭

[@thekeccles1996]

The 2005 Honda Accord was the last year of the smaller, more narrow taillights, and the 2006 had larger ones. Otherwise the front ends on them are virtually identical, I believe -- I have a 2006 V6 sedan with the refreshed taillights (that I'm actually trying to sell at the moment) and while I think it looks a bit better, the car is so anonymous either way that I don't know if anyone really cares or notices the difference. Edit: I also picked up an NC2 PRHT partially because of you two discussing how good they are! I would've liked an NC3 with the PRHT, but I found a red NC2 with about 90K miles on it for a decent deal and decided to go for it. Koni shocks and Tom Matano signature included, and I gotta say it's so much fun so thanks for doing that episode comparing Miata generations and the E30!

[@earlmacmullin4688]

This was actually super interesting to watch you two discuss. Personally, I do not think that there is a clear, definitive answer to this. Also, small correction: The Canadian City Jetta & City Golf was a MK4. We even got a facelift City Jetta & City Golf (which you showed). Always thought it was such a weird choice for VW. They came out when we had the then new MK5 Golfs & Jettas.

[@Enthusiastlist]

BMW has had a few great LCI models. F80 comes to mind in particular.

[@flat6croc]

Problem with the W124 is that the interior on the early is so much nicer. The answer is W124 coupe or C124. That had the cladding before the saloom or estate but also initially got the early interior, therefore combining all the best elements.

[@wesleyrice2138]

49:43 right away i think 10th gen civic. Especially type r Thanks for all the pictures and props! really enjoyed this one and seeing older cars, since i was not particularly into older cars

[@JeremiBulakowski]

I’m also amazed that no one mentioned Fiat Multipla as a confirmation of Tom’s thesis.

[@owenbands]

Dope.. Please put more photos as you mention different models so new car people can learn and keep up.

[@nokiangage]

The w140 in the background rocks guys, so happy from you and cheers from another w140 owner which got his dream in 2019 and I still love the big pig to this day, awesome cars those are

[@dr.mattpavlic305]

Coming to Edmonton? Feel free to announce it and maybe there can be a meet up? I'm happy to be a guide/host around Edmonton!

[@KoenigF50]

Alfa 147/156/166. All 3 had quite substantial facelifts that divided opinion. Loved the show, though I had to google a lot of the cars you mentioned to refresh my memory on the facelifts. The general car knowledge you two have makes me feel like a normal non-car guy :))

[@JDub33333]

49:52 One of the first cars that comes to mind for me is the fixed headlight Z32 300zx to the popup headlight Z31 300zx (if you consider those popups). I don't think the Z31 is ugly in the slightest, however the Z32 really embraces that curvy 90s shape.

[@XennialGuy]

The Diablo used Z32 headlights.

[@dennisgrabowski7738]

Every time I hear that ring tone in the Lucid add I jump a little thinking one of the proximity sensors in the car is going off...LOL.

[@MegaMrWookiee]

I loved everything you said about the Testarossa. It was just funny that every detail you said about them I agree 100%. The 3000GT is an interesting one to consider. I like the original one best, but I don't the refreshes look bad. Controversially, I don't love the last 2 versions of it, though (97 and later).

[@nickscapellato8248]

One point I have, with Ferrari as an example you brought up - I wouldn't necessarily call different models sharing similar chassis architecture a refresh. To me a refresh stays within the same model designation. I know it gets muddy when manufacturers give something a new internal code but still admit to using the same fundamental chassis.

[@pereldh5741]

So happy you brought up the life & times of the Peugeot 505, a pininfarina great! Completely agree on the verdict, fantastic facelift

[@_que]

Honda S2K AP1 vs AP2, Lexus IS / GS, and potentially the RC, which was new in 2006, and it's pretty much the same chassis to current date with updates all over. Drivetrain is 3.5L V6 with RWD or AWD 6 or 8 spd...

[@StephenDavidson5359]

06 and up S2000 specifically in my opinion is the best. Better cluster with ambient temp, better wheels, more interior storage, roll hoop speakers.

[@adriaanserrao2016]

I find the E60 LCI still to be one of the most beautiful BMW's ever made. I know I'm going to get some flac for that take but that car still looks modern.

[@mistreku]

Really, one of the most beautiful BMW's ever? E9, 507, E31, E38, Z4 coupe, E24, new 8 series (can't remember the chassis number) are just a few that spring to mind. Also, modern does not equate to beautiful. The LCI E60 is indeed better looking that the first iteration, but hardly "one of the most beautiful".

[@alsoncheong7773]

I think the Cayenne second gen got a good face lift

[@nickyang1143]

Cayenne 1st and 2nd gen looked better face lifted.

[@zbrembo]

I feel like at least something is always lost. The 350z for instance, the new hood/bumper/lights looked so much better but all of the interior pieces went from black plastics to black painted/covered plastics and they all look like the wolverine was the previous owner.

[@Petrospect]

That seriously disappointed me climbing in to my friend’s ‘08 Nismo; first Z I’ve interacted with. I heard stories but I had no idea it was this bad in the flesh.

[@zbrembo]

@@Petrospect yea its crazy! every nismo looks like complete trash inside and yet my 03 track edition looks absolutely MINT.

[@MaticT]

W212 E-class is 2 different cars if you look at the facelift vs prelift

[@YuppieRacer]

More LCI’s I like: W212 E90-91 (not E92/3, gah) EK civics S197 Mustang The list goes on and on and on and on!

[@akshaysankarshana2405]

As hard as it is, we want more inserts, pls.... Also, BTW, they said they haven't done their homework, but they're knowledgeable enough to exchange information for almost a whole hour. Loved the episode, pretty interesting... and as always, you guys rock!

[@ignatious.6002]

Mercedes W212 pre and post Facelift, that facelift W212 in my books is not only just the most successful facelift but probably the best new age design of the E Class after the W210

[@ignatious.6002]

Strangely though I do prefer the mid facelift W124 than the first 80s and the late 94- facelift

[@jeremyolsen694]

When discussing the Canadian City Golf and Jetta, the story could get deeper. These were Mk4 based, commonly referred to mk4.5. The cars were being built in Mexico and Brazil, with exterior to look like the B6 Passat. They were a great visual improvement! Also worth mentioning is VW in China is still building Mk2 Jetta based cars. Modernized many times. There is a enthusiast crowd that are ‘back dating’ to look like the ROW Mk2 Jetta.

[@motoriderj6448]

2nd generation Toyota MR2. 91-92 had two face-lifts both improved the car in my opinion. In 93 they added a front lip to the bumper. In 94+ they changed the tail lights to more round flowing units that fit the car better, they also changed the spoler to a single piece from a 3 piece unit. You could also do a bit on the whole US market WRX revisions, all generations have people that both love and hate them and most are updated revisions.

[@STRGHTSXBNZ]

Late to the party (because of latest ISSIMI podcast), but hopefully you guys will read: The W124 indeed had the original ("Mopf 0", the 1st facelift "Mopf 1" and final "Mopf 2"). In the w124 world the Mopf 1 is considered to be the 'ultimate' iteration because of the non-water based paints on the later W140-styled Mopf 2 cars, yet having the sacco cladding and upgraded interior (especially the bouncy seats were terrible) The Mopf2 cars rusted like nothing before, had the issues with the biodegradable wiring loom and thus marked the decline of Mercedes-Benz at the time.

[@drivethrutimeattack]

The VA WRX got a facelift in 2018, they also addressed the rev hang issues with the original tune of the 2015-17 model years. I may be biased, but I much prefer the facelift to the original.

[@acarenthusiast3036]

The 997.2 fixed the IMS issue

[@OldSkoolUncleChris]

Any 996 still going today is very unlikely to have a bad IMS, all the bad ones r gone

[@Rex_Racer]

Yes, but I think the 997.1 design is prettier, especially the front end.

[@donalmurphy6248]

As a fan of the mk1 and mk2 sciroccos, the early mk2 has always been my favourite, the way the door bottoms and cills tuck in as well as the rear valance reminds of the supercars of that came before, miura, ferrari 328 and 512bb, stratos. Would be a fan of the idea that something new on a car you like will draw you back in, but over time the original design that pulled you in will win out

[@Vge21x]

Gallardo LP-560, Murcielago LP-640, Huracan Evo, Saab 9-3 (and 2007 9-5, but nobody agrees on that one), Subaru WRX from bug through blob to hawkeyes, every single Volvo from 2010 up, Ferrari 488, 2008 Focus and that's what I got off the top of my head.

[@potatomonkey99]

Really glad you guys mentioned the e90 facelift, imo one of the most successful examples of a facelift elevating an ugly car. E92 as well (although the E92 pre facelift wasn't too bad) Not sure this is a car that either of you particularly think about, but i believe that the Nissan s13 (240sx, 200sx, 180sx, Silvia) timeline represents a terrible and a great facelift. (Zenki, Chuki, Kijki referring to pre facelift, 1st facelift, and 2nd facelift respectively) The first facelift circa 1992 made the front look really bloated and unathletic in the mid 90s soap-bar way. It didn't really mesh with the rest of the car. Took what was a nice looking car and took it down a notch. The 2nd facelift circa 1996 (Japan only) completely changed the era of the car without changing its identity and elevated it to a new level. It brought a more agressive look to the car, modernizing both the front and rear, without clashing with the round, smooth bodylines. At the end of it's run in 1998 it still looked new and modern. One chassis with a great example of both a middling and a fantastic facelift

[@tally5k339]

Going to nominate the mk6 GTI following the mk5. Especially with the Euro spec lights, I thought the mk6 really looked the business

[@rodpc9665]

I'm curious on your thoughts on the original 86 vs facelift GR and BRZ. To me the original looks so mild having seen the updated versions.

[@DoctorJay184]

The GR86 looks better. Not to say that the original car didn't look good because it really does look good, but the new car looks better.

[@JK061996]

The facelifted BRZ is the prettiest IMHO

[@coldfusionftw]

Here's the most interesting facelift progression I can think of. The Chrysler/Dodge Daytona. Started with 4 headlight, then to popup and then to composite lighting. I think the Le Baron of the same generations followed this progression as well. I think arguably the last generation is the best looking but I always had a soft spot for the pop up headlight cars. The Plymouth Laser is in there as well, until it moved over to the Eclipse/Talon platform.

[@davidraezer5937]

In regards to the W124 chassis I prefer the phase 1 cars for their simple lines. Phase 2 cars got the cladding and different bumpers. Phase 3 got the different grill and the euro style headlights. When a reckless person totaled my 86 I ended up with a phase 2 400E and the cladding is growing on me but the more I look at it I want to paint the lower cladding body color to make it more cohesive.

[@ahenryrose]

hey dudes. i love the show. a lot. one consideration ... maybe play the inserts for longer? it's not like we need to keep watching you talk ;) keep it up.

[@theodor12]

The E39 BMW 5 series was better after the facelift... first BMW to introduce the iconic "angel eye" headlights... they still look fresh today!

[@mynt253]

Absolutely love the E39 and E46 facelifts. Wouldn't to own a pre-facelift of either car if I could have a facelift model.

[@harveythompson3161]

I cant believe they didn't mention Audi, to my mind they are the kings of making a good-looking facelift whilst not making the the previous look old. for example I find almost every generation of A4 estate looks good but for different reasons/how modern they look

[@Brandonm50]

@thecarmudgenshow if you need a place to stay or work on your Canada trip let me know I’m in Airdrie just outside Calgary right off the main highway. As well for Honda/Acura face lift the 96-00 civic got a facelift and the 94-01 integra got a facelift in 99 as well both look better than the earlier models. For your Canada trip sooner rather than later is better. The weather can change real quick in late September early October.

[@popinjayjunior7698]

In my short life, I’ve seen two cars that had major facelifts. The XV60 Camry(2012-2018) and the W212 E-class.

[@tshegosepeng458]

The E65 facelift is the first thing I thought about when I saw the title of this episode 😄

[@MomentumEntFilms]

Awesome car reviews guyz..keep the videos coming..lets talk Audi TT series

[@matthewheitzman5993]

All 3 generations of MINI Coopers LCI takes the cake 👌🏼

[@jpblom]

It seems like any talk about early integrated bumpers that hide US impact requirements should note the 928. Plus that's a model that splits opinions re preferring the original or the update.

[@michaelking6596]

For Japanese cars.. the original Honda CRV . The first gen 1983-87 had large headlights and odd panel gaps.. the 88-91 gen 2 smoothed the body and lights and was more cohesive

[@stephenc2974]

I hope they mention the S14 facelift because Kouki are straight 🔥🔥🔥

[@dreamdrivedrift]

The Californian to New York translation had me rolling as an East coast to west coast transplant😂

[@afoolandhismoneychannel]

It's a misconception that the 996 and Boxster used the same headlight, because they didn't. Sort of. The basic housing/connectors/attachments were the same but the 911 (996) had an extra metal reflector inside below the actual headlight itself that adds an upmarket visual touch to the assembly. The part numbers were different from 996 to Boxster, with the 996 version carrying a replacement price-tag about double that of the Boxster's. Having said that, Boxster headlights install identically into a 996 (and vice-versa) so they are interchangeable.

[@Luckeysharms]

Not sure if this counts as a facelift but FK8 to FL5 Civic Type R. I didn’t mind the old styling, but the new design is so simple with the integrated wide body, I would daily drive the hell out of it without feeling embarrassed.

[@arthurs7882]

Long Island boy. Appreciated The paisano accent!

[@sauwercraud]

Fiat Multipla tone down the looks A LOT with the Facelift. I do like the 6 Eyes on the original better though. The last Facelift was quite forgettable though

[@Petrospect]

The E36 one (owning a ‘91) the black stuff is supposed to be some sort of rubber protection on top of the paint that usually chipped off (like mine did on the side skirts) and revealed the color underneath. A strange decision. Other than that, hate the facelift grille and M kit… looks way too bling-ey. Pre+M is the way to go, I’d level that same complaint on the E46 facelift. I am at the crossroads of wanting the sportier bumpers on mine but the color combo works too well as a two tone and the Style 17s just make it look all that more of the era. So damn 90s.

[@djpierre4613]

Quite a few imo. Jaguar XF, Bmw e90, Alfa 164(166 maybe also), Audi A5 gen1, Pontiac Fiero and probably a lot more.

[@tonyflorio3269]

924 to 944 to 944 with improved interior is an example where the later car is better looking (until 968, which im not fond of).

[@jj481012]

E46 facelift coupe just looks more put together and sportier imo. I have my own facelift car and every time I see it next to a pre facelift I can’t help but think the pre is just ugly. The cat like xenon headlights are really the best part, along with a sportier bumper.

[@ScreengageLLC]

Blobafied! That's the word I've been searching for that era of cars!!!

[@6rimR3ap3r]

Speaking from the point of my own cars I'm torn between both camps. My 91 Supra is the Facelift of the mk3 Supra and I like every single bit about it better than the early one. Bumpers, OEM wheels, rear spoiler... Then on my 2013 GT86 I absolutely prefer the early pre-facelift, except OEM taillights never looked good to me on any iteration, and I also retro-fitted the facelift shark-fin antenna. But the pure, basic interior of the early car, no buttons on the wheel, no TPMS, no emergency call stuff - always, any day.

[@Cajun1978]

More recent example. 5th Gen 4Runner. The 2014 to present 4runner is much more popular than the early 2010 -2013 models. Not that those weren't good looking trucks but the facelift and interior refresh in 2014 really helped sales increase.

[@etmccaus]

Citroen DS? I still like the original frogeye cars but those glassed-in swivel lamps on the facelift get me every time.

[@MediumBluWonder]

When I was younger, aesthetically, the W211's facelift (MY 07-09 in the US) really did not work for me. However, now I believe it is one of the reasons that that specific model is aging so gracefully. While the W203 looked dated even with a facelift, the W211 has a brilliant marriage of the previous and current design languages. I prefer the front end's ovoid headlight design combined with the the sharper edged grille which appears to pay homage to the much loved W124. It also received unique indicator mirrors and taillight assembly compared to the rest of the line-up at that time, which really hit home the importance of the W211.

[@TheGhostofgatsby]

Benz W204, great facelift. The 4 cyl went to turbo from kompressor and new trans. Much smoother, better performance and economy. Better looking, new headlight design plus LEDs, much nicer interior centre stack etc…

[@jimiverson3085]

Regarding crash bumpers, it your car didn't have them and you were in a crash at low speed, it looked bad. If your car had crash bumpers, it looked bad all the time. Regarding Sciroccos, if you lower the Mk I, it looked a lot better. Was it riding that high due to the bumper height rules?

[@shingoose6197]

Subjective, but the front end styling of the Z31 3rd generation Z cars looked better post facelift from '87-'89, but the rear end of the '83-'86 cars is usually preferred by the community. Many people swap late front ends onto early cars to get the best of both worlds.

[@flat6croc]

The whole front half of the car on 986 / 996 is shared. It's basically a single platform with mid-rear and rear-rear engine installation options.

[@AlanStryman]

loved saab 900 og facelift, it really looked timeless

[@betodo9984]

42:54 The reference photo for city golf is missingr

[@jakeflicks]

BMW E85 Z4 LCI is better than pre-LCI imo because the the turn signal lights in the front are integrated with the grill and the taillights are more coherent. Also it gets the N52 engine.

[@ahmedtrampa5212]

5th gen Camaro comes to my mind. I personally prefer the pre-facelift cars. What do you all think?

[@kellypollock]

I like the later Z3 over the original skinny rear fender style