Is There REALLY Any Difference?! FULL FORGIVENESS TEST! P790 vs P770 vs P7CB (2024)

[@davidm7031]

“I don’t fit by handicap” is a phrase that needs to be adopted by all other fitters!

[@epgolfstudios]

100% David 🙌🙌

[@brumfiba]

Couldn't agree more. Your cap is dependent on so many variables. I strike my irons decent because I practice with them but I'm an absolute liability off the tee. Does my inconsistency with a driver mean I can't play some nice forged players irons? I realized long ago that I do not care.

[@James_Vaughn]

Not surprised by this. I've spent way too much time, and money chasing the perfect bag. I've gone from classic MBs to Hybrid irons, and most everything in between, and I find that clubs are by far the smallest piece of the puzzle. I've been suckered in by the usual 'honeymoon period' a few times, but by and large I shoot around the same range of scores, regardless.

[@jaym5087]

Have you settled on any irons that overall do the job?

[@epgolfstudios]

Yeah doesn't matter what clubs you've got in your hand if you make a crap swing 😂😂 but also having clubs that do give you the very best ball flight performance when you hit them well (height, descent, gapping etc) and look good, feel good, nice weight, that will at least give you the best chance possible, then it's all down to you to put a good swing on it 💪

[@James_Vaughn]

@jaym5087 I have a set of Hogan ft worth 15 irons, and a couple sets of one length irons that I swap out from time to time. Mostly I've been using the cobra aerojet OL irons lately.

[@James_Vaughn]

@epgolfstudios True, fitting certainly has its place to fine tune a person's game.

[@rogerthat24]

I've gone from R9 from 2009 to JPX 919 Tour. The feel is very different on less than perfect shots. The 919s give me immediate feedback when I hit on off centre. Forgiveness is quite different as well. I'd lose 10-15 yards with 919s whereas I'd lose less than 10 yards with R9s. I know, they are 10 years apart in terms of age/tech.

[@noof2533]

Great content! Love the time you put in to test these. Forgiveness is word equipment manufacturers hang their hats on. Nice to see someone quantify those claims. Great work.

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks noof 🙌👍

[@mehammered]

Probably one of the best analysis videos I've seen in a long time. I do wish you would give shot dispersion summaries at the end of each one.

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks mehammered. Well dispersion is 99% the player tbh so imo it's not a part of the test. Sometimes I'll touch on whether or not a club may have a particular bias because that is relevant. But overall dispersion is all on me

[@alysgolfstudio567]

I am someone who tried and tested the p790 but never got on with them. However love the p770 (2023) and gives me consistent distances. Equally key though was adjusting the length, lie and after testing several shafts found one that works well for me. In addition really going for a very different grip (jmx ultralites) made a meaningful difference.

[@davidm7031]

Great video and I completely agree that it’s mostly marketing. I’ve seen loads of all kind of club reviews and the smash factor variance is always about the same whether it’s a GI or blade.

[@satwantbhandal5844]

This is a great video, exactly the question I am finding myself asking as I want to choose between the 770 and the MB, just a great vid thank you

[@RipBruv]

I got the MBs last year and just bought the new 770s. They haven’t been delivered yet, but I play my buddies sometimes when we play together (he works for TM) and if you haven’t decided on irons yet, I would highly recommend the 770s. So much more forgiving. I was playing off a 3.9 index when I bought the MBs and now play off a 5.7. They are absolutely impossible to be comfortable and confident with and there’s a reason tour pros aren’t even gaming them, and they opt for the 770s or CBs/MCs

[@Golf4LifeGrandview]

Hi Ross, great video! How was the vibration in your hands on those thin low on the face shots? Were any of the iron models any better? How much difference would a graphite shaft such as an MMT 105 have on that vibration? Is it worth the upgrade? Signed sore elbows

[@samfuller97]

Love this. Would be cool to see the real extremes, say ZX blades vs ZX4.

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks Sam. Well I have done the game improvement vs blade video. Which I used the Cobra Darkspeed GI iron vs the Cobra MB and even got a mid handicapper to do the hitting. Worth a watch 👍

[@Jr_5646]

Great video. I've always thought "game improvement" irons were a bit counterintuitive. At least it is in the modern day launch monitor era. The problem is that most manufacturers are using driver like stategies to lower the cg, which inherently raises launch while lowering spin. Then, they lower the loft to get the launch back down to a similar window while lowering spin even more. Sure it sells golf clubs because distance sells, but it's not going to lower scores for most people. The whole purpose of an iron is to hit a particular distance as consistently as you can. Launch and spin are your biggest friends when it comes to that. Not to mention, most people get fitted inside on a mat. That's the most spin you will ever get. Put that ball in the rough or wet conditions, and spin is only dropping from there. The vast majority of golfers should be looking for more loft and more spin with their irons.

[@epgolfstudios]

Definitely agree. Strong lofts are not the most conducive for consistent iron shots, not to mention stopping power and gapping. Conditions play a big part of spin (contact moreso) but a ball spins a lot more off grass than it does on my mat as I've done loads of tests with GC Quad outside on the fairways vs inside. It surprised me how much more spin I got off the fairway

[@atamagashock]

I got fitted for new irons a few months ago after returning to golf after a 15 year break while getting married and kids. I got fitted into p790s, which I do like very much, but didn’t like how strong the lifts were. I had mine weakened 2 degrees in the 5-8 irons. I’ve personally never had issues getting launch, but I was just used to playing a 33-34 degree 7 iron. In hindsight I should have asked to hit the 770s but I was out of touch and just hit whatever the fitter gave me. Unfortunately he was a young kid that I’ve never seen again since being fit! knowing what I now, he basically tried fitting me into something off the rack to get an immediate sale. Didn’t consider that I was just restarting, but was carrying 170-175 with the 790 and 923 forged, and that maybe I should be put into something I’d have room to grow, versus something I was already hitting extremely well. Now I wanna move into 770 or maybe a split set 770/p7cb, but I just got my set in May, so a bit aggravating. Not sure why I’m ranting all this, but I think some fitters look to closely t handicap to see where to push you, versus how you actually hit your irons. Some people have higher handicaps from long clubs and short game, but hit irons well.

[@epgolfstudios]

Yeah you're absolutely correct. Loads of fitted just use the 'handicap scale' to fit people rather than looking at the more important factors such as delivery characteristics. Well I mean it doesn't sound like you're having too many issues with the 790s. They are very good irons as long as they don't hinder stopping power and as long as you are still getting good gapping through the set. It's all about how they fit your delivery rather than and kind of handicap. Plenty of scratch guys will have 790s because they fit them, and vice versa, mid handicaps will have the CBs because they fit them. Nothing to do with handicap or level 👍

[@Jr_5646]

@@epgolfstudios That's interesting about the mat spin. I do spin it less off the "fluffier" mats, but spin it more on the tighter firmer mats. Grass length and ground firmness would definitely have an impact on spin. I'd imagine grass type would as well. I'd guess you can spin it more on bent than on Bermuda or Zoysia.

[@epgolfstudios]

Yes 100%, it's crazy how much impacts spin and how little it takes to have quite a big impact. My mat is very tight, it's quite soft but the pile height is nothing. If you hit off any kind of tee turf or anything with a high pile you can get such variance of spin it's crazy. And yeah same with grass

[@sethcolby7421]

What a video!! Thank you for doing these tests! Really surprising results!

[@benrgrieve]

As someone who's usual club-face miss on my T200s is in the toe, this is pretty enlightening to at least try to move the miss more to the heel and still keep the distance

[@gregcaines83]

Thanks Ross. Super helpful as my 7-iron swing speed is 80-82. About to get fit and trying to ignore the marketing. Currently gaming Apex 19s and excited to return to a players iron with control/consistency being my priority vs pure distance. P770 and P-7CB on my list for sure. Not expecting massive performance gains but golf is all about incremental improvement (and loving what you’re looking down at!). Can’t wait to hit ‘em all and choose a winner before I get into the bay with my fitter to fine tune specs.

[@jamesreynolds4220]

I currently play the Apex 21's - good step up from the 19's I used before. You will see a bit more distance and more forgiveness across the face. Callaway has a great choice of custom shafts as well. The "players" clubs tend to be small and less forgiving, so be sure try several different styles to find the one most suited to your game - and take your time.

[@gregcaines83]

@@jamesreynolds4220 Thanks James. I have hit a bunch and had it down to Srixon ZX7 and P-770. (My index is 5.7 and typically 4-5 range and decent ball striker). The P-770 was the clear winner and I plan to combo with the P-790 for 5/6 irons and add a 4-hybrid instead of 4-iron. I am scheduled with my fitter Oct 8 to dial in shaft and specs. I just didn’t love Callaway’s lineup right now. Top priorities in my process are (1) Tightest dispersion (2) Trajectory and landing angle (3) Feel/sound. Distance wasn’t on my radar for irons as I’m satisfied with where I’m at (7-iron carry average 164yds). Instead, I’m focused on trying to just hit more greens and improve proximity. I’m 57 so I know distance and launch will likely be a priority in the future as I lose speed but right now the goal is more GIRs and better control (current GIRs 51%). I’ll admit to being nervous about the prospect of changing shafts as my current DG105 S300s performed great with the 770 during testing but I’ll have to trust my fitter. I’ve spent way more time researching irons than I would buying a car! LOL Thanks again James.

[@BruceLowe88]

Yeah this is cool stuff and gets you thinking a lot more than before. Cool Clubs tested on their robot and found the P7CB’s were decent on off centre strikes as you found. Nice job, super interesting 👍🏼

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks Bruce, glad you enjoyed the video 👍👌

[@huntertaylor2747]

I’m by no means good at golf, but I have the 770’s and I find them so easy to hit and they still go straight and far wherever on the face I hit compared to my old rocketbladez

[@Tubezilla]

I think you should do this test with a 4 or 5 iron. That's where forgiveness is seen most? I cannot get blades to launch in the longer irons. It's why a lot of pros use GI irons in long irons. Great video

[@epgolfstudios]

I'd say no purely as the vast majority of amateurs shouldn't be playing those irons anyway, certainly not a 4 iron. So I think possibly a 6 iron but then may as well just use a 7 as it would cost me a shit ton of money to buy every club in a 5 or 6 iron when I've already got the 7 anyway for fittings. And no I would say relative forgiveness between models won't change much regardless of what iron it is. When you can really quantify forgiveness the relative drop off you see in different models isn't very different tbh. And a blade will always launch higher than a GI iron purely based on loft. Most bladed irons in the 4i will be 24* of loft and GI would be more around 19/20 so unless you bend the GI iron to a weaker loft the blade will still launch and spin more. You possibly could see less peak height due to less ball speed but that would depend on your speed and delivery characteristics.

[@Tubezilla]

@@epgolfstudios ThankYOU for that explanation.

[@seancurran3944]

Buying the New P770’s! Thanks

[@carlrulton8101]

Interesting video, I’ve just swapped from 0211 irons to hot metal HL to gain extra height on weaker lofts. Definitely prefer the ball flight and seem to be more consistent on front to back dispersion. I was always under impression that CBs would be less forgiving… clearly the marketing machine has been in over drive and more people would benefit trying a wider range at a fitting session.

[@epgolfstudios]

Yeah those 0211s are like rocket ships. Too strong for most. The HM HL is a great option to help get a bit of height 👌 technically yes they will be slightly less forgiving. But as you can see on this test it's really hard to say how much more forgiving they actually are.

[@zacharymilos392]

Your dedication to the truth is admirable, great vid

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks Zachary 👌👌

[@benc7430]

Great vid Ross , thank you. I don’t fit by handicap - great line 👍.

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks Ben 👌👌

[@mitchy7051]

TM is killing it this year. In years past their irons were suspect in qc and specs. I think most players will appreciate more loft and std lenghts in their cuurent performance line.

[@adambarnes4191]

That's where I'm at. Even Mizuno in their MP line are getting crazy with how strong the lofts are.

[@Eric-qi7ex]

I was never able to make the 790s work for me (tried multiple shafts) as well as the 770s despite several fitters telling me reflexively that the 790 would be better for me based on my handicap. I ultimately ignored them and went with the 770s

[@niallq001]

Nicely done, cuts through a lot of marketing confusion!

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks Niall 👌

[@ExTrumpet]

What about the steep high-toe miss that warps the shaft and sends us to the bag for ibuprofen and more bourbon?

[@09nvn]

Great video. Your video brought me to a question regarding my wedges. My gap wedge tends to be ballooning standard DG wedge shaft and in order for me to get the flight I want I have to trap it. What other shaft should I consider for my gap wedge?

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks! Unfortunately a shaft won’t change the flight hardly at all. Gotta just work on that technique 💪

[@PbD187]

Great comparison!

[@CThienV]

Im still looking forward to making consistent contact with my 15 year old set of TM Burner Plus

[@lathamstylemtb]

I see the biggest differences in low or thin strikes due to the speed slots

[@marcelguldemond2523]

Really interesting video. I wonder how much forgiveness might have to do with weight distribution? What if you tried a CB that didn’t have the fancy weighting of these TMs? The thinner flexing face tech might only add a wee bit of distance. And the AI face designs that were being sold seems to have only marginal gains at best.

[@zahimiibrahim3602]

Hollow back irons are the thing now but I don't see any real advantage over a perimeter weighted cavity back other than blade like looks which some might prefer. To make an iron significantly more forgiving they'd need to move the CG much further back and be hybrid-like.

[@smevox7490]

Would be good to see this video with about a 90-95 swing speed. This was a great video nonetheless.

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks bud. I mean the end result would still be the same. Just amplified distance. CB and 770 would be virtually the same numbers. The 790 might separate out a little bit more but the pattern would be pretty much the same

[@JayWDPT]

so if someone gets fit for a 770 or 790, but you think they may struggle with overall consistency with toe shots vs. sweet spot - would you recommend the 770 over the 790 to prevent that large front to back dispersion range on distance?

[@epgolfstudios]

In a fitting that probably wouldn't be my primary thought no. As pretty much every golfer mis-hits it a lot unless they are very good. Id just be giving them the head that I feel best suits them from a pure numbers and performance perspective.

[@madsfinne9228]

Would this kind of compare straight over to titleist t-100/150/200?

[@epgolfstudios]

I think there would be more different between the T100 and T200 than there was in this test between the CB and 790 (in terms of performance numbers) but yeah in terms of forgiveness the T100 is great tbh so I don't think there would be loads between the 2

[@trapmaster3150]

Should have added in an Improvement like the Stealths to compare with these.

[@epgolfstudios]

Think 3 is tops in this kinda vid or it just gets very long. It would have been about half a club longer than the 790 and forgiveness still hard to say

[@darrencritcher3570]

Hello, been following the channel for a good few months, understanding the benefits of a custom fit etc. I went to a local fitting for the p770s and although swing path and spin axis were neutral, toe in at times was negative 4-6 degrees. Wondering if this is something you’d want to minimises. Spec at 3 degree upright. Looking to hopefully comes down in the next month for a fitting prior to purchase :)

[@epgolfstudios]

Hey Darren, thanks for following along and watching all the content 🙏👍 and in my opinion yes you probably would want to work on getting the hands slightly lower through impact which would prevent the toe from being down and there's multiple reasons for that. In terms of lie angle you just want to make sure it's giving you the best start direction regardless of what's happening with the lie angle at impact. If you miss left and they fit you 3* upright then that won't end well, especially in the wedges. So just gotta be a bit careful 👍

[@darrencritcher3570]

@@epgolfstudios see you weds 16th

[@rickyg3390]

What’s the launch monitor used to show all club data

[@epgolfstudios]

Foresight Sports GC Quad

[@bomb_and_gouge]

In my case, I focus more on setup with a smaler clubface. The irony being that my bad shots with P7CB is alot better than my bad shots with P790s...

[@87toyhighlux]

I like this, now take the P790 and P7CB and do this against the Taylormade game improvement club

[@stiggiban]

Seems you took off à little more club speed on the misses on the toe side. Lot of shots Around 77mph vs 81-ish for the good hits? But really loving this test though! Great vid

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it. Yeah possibly, I was trying to keep it consistent ish but trying to swing at an exact speed while mis hitting it in a specific location is pretty damn tough 😂

[@robemblem]

If you had p7mb’s up to 6 iron, would you go cb’s 4&5 or cb’s 5 & P770 4?

[@epgolfstudios]

You could go either to be completely honest. Personally I'd probably just go 4 and 5 in the 770

[@matthewthompson6329]

Great content again mate! I've always found a bigger difference on thin and high strikes with certain iron categories. Would be interested in seeing a video testing that 😁 my T100's seem phenomenal on low strikes and awful on high

[@Tubezilla]

this

[@tonythaiger93]

I feel like in 24, golf manufacturers stretch all possible imagination on MOI. Remember, golf companies were developing forgiving irons even in the 80s.

[@tonythaiger93]

Intentionally missing a shot but pin high from 155yds...my swing needs work.

[@garethshepperson523]

Is forgiveness all marketing? Very interesting.

[@juniorgolfinscotlandbybrod3791]

I am 12 with 103mph driver speed and over 80mph with 7 iron. Got 2021 p790's reg shaft. New GT driver hazardous 6.0 60g would the P770 be good for my new irons?

[@epgolfstudios]

Absolutely no idea unfortunately mate, can't answer that without seeing you in person and watching you hit shots and seeing all your numbers. Really there's only ever one way to find out what's best for you, get properly fitted where you can hit lots of different heads against each other and figure out what works best

[@coffee_berlin]

interesting. not fitting by handicap. I'm currently a 20.3 with little tournaments in, in reality maybe a 16/15 hdc, but was just fitted for the P7CB (PW-7) and P770 (5-6), without knowing anything about these. then I read/watched a lot about about the CBs and thought that this might be wayyyy to difficult for me to play. I had a really good day when getting fitted though. I didn't buy the clubs (yet?), mostly because they are pricey, but also because in the aftermath of research, I got a bit unsure if this is actually true. But maybe it is?

[@mrTaylorwellborn]

Maybe this would be a better test if you had a high handicaper do the testing

[@chrisgilligan4968]

So basically what this video showed is that for someone who swings 7 iron at 80mph there is literally no difference between any of these clubs. Buy whichever one is the cheapest because the results are practically identical.

[@chief1193]

Forgiving irons is the biggest gimmick in golf. If you suck at golf you just suck.

[@allanmclean9847]

God knows how we got on when there was nothing but blades

[@issjay5409]

Still need a media assistant ?

[@sebcoussot2426]

Os or serions ? No matters the irons ? I’m shocked. Os it the same results. Is it the same results with thé other brands ? Tanks for the test.

[@epgolfstudios]

Sorry I don't understand the question? And no problem 👍

[@sebcoussot2426]

Sorry, i’d like to know if we could expect the same results with other brands : titleist t100 and t150 and t200 for exemple.

[@jim60631]

P7CBs had a pretty significant difference in face angle and dynamic lie on the good strikes compared to the others, this tells you how much different the CG is on that head. Also, Cool Clubs did a robot test and found the 770 to be way more forgiving on slight mishits compared to the P7CB. Forgiveness isn't about disasterous strikes, not much is going to help you it's about the slight mishits which matter. If you're not a robot it's incredibly hard to test that.

[@canyonaro]

The P770 results from Cool Clubs were a major wow, especially as a guy with a thin miss. Still, the most important thing is knowing what your clubs will do.

[@Doober560]

This is wild. So either get the p-790 if you want a bigger head or go with p7cb. I think the 770 is obsolete

[@smevox7490]

790 was wayyy too hot for me. Went with 770 and seem to be pretty consistant with them. Didn't try the p7cb, would be interesting to have tried it.

[@Doober560]

@@smevox7490 I never even thought about trying them because I didn’t think I was good enough. I might have to now.

[@untuckedgolf10]

Not always...I hit 8 degrees down with irons and I need a higher cg. So depending on the CG of each iron

[@christophers9727]

this video shows “forgiving” in an iron is marketing BS. Shaft is most important followed by what you like to look at and will give you most consistency

[@freddym6643]

The real question, is the P7TW actually as forgiving as the P790?

[@epgolfstudios]

😂 no, technically not, but I bet if you did this sort of test with it, they wouldn't be anywhere near as 'unforgiving' as people would think

[@freddym6643]

@@epgolfstudios They've even got tungsten in them

[@freddym6643]

@@epgolfstudios btw, I have a video idea: Wedge shaft test. PW, ideally 46 degree vokey, comparing S400 with X7. Or similar comparisons. Could include S400 vs X100 as well. Or the PX range with for example 6.5 in the irons, then either 6.0 or 7.0 in the wedges. Full swing, half swing, and quarter swing. As you know the S400 is by far the most popular wedge shaft on tour, and even PX players will go down usually say from 6.5 in the irons to the 6.0 in wedges (rory). However, I've seen people and fitters claim that the better thing to do is to go stiffer in wedges than irons, as the dynamics change at around a pitching wedge loft.

[@jameskeen3321]

I know I cant hit a p7tw ( I’m left handed)

[@canyonaro]

@@freddym6643They usually go slightly lighter for a more head-heavy feel. PX 6.0 is 5g lighter than PX 6.5. Personally I go lighter and stiffer on my wedges but you have to pick a different shaft altogether. I put Steelfiber i95 in my wedges while I have Modus 105 in my irons. Works pretty well for me.

[@KittySherry-c1h]

Waelchi Road

[@tellwilliams4493]

Instead of holding a club and saying this one, can you tell us what this one is is a P790 P 770 always refer to the name of the club that you’re talking about whether it’s a cut away version or whatever

[@199isabeast]

What sim is that?

[@epgolfstudios]

Foresight GC Quad with the FSX 2020 software

[@jamieokane989]

You need to get new trousers, there’s a heck of a mark on your right knee.

[@epgolfstudios]

It's true I never buy clothes, can't stand it tbh 😂. that's from doing loft and lies. Doesn't take long when you do as many as me

[@adrianjackman9422]

The more I think I understand the less I actually do. That was totally the opposite of what I expected.

[@epgolfstudios]

What did you expect mate?

[@seanpeacock5595]

Did I miss you commenting on any “feel” difference between the three. Great video!

[@adrianjackman9422]

@@epgolfstudios To be honest I expected the p790 to show less drop off and remain straighter on off centre hits neither seemed true. My memory of better players irons admittedly blades was a horrible stinging in the fingers and the ball going nowhere on a big miss hit. Have played the TM RSI1 for a good few years now and as a pensioner I am not getting any longer. Maybe treat myself to a fitting soon. I do love your content keep it up.

[@miked7277]

Love these vids but he pisses me off so bad the way he takes his right hand off the club when he sqimgs. Wtf

[@epgolfstudios]

Jesus people get pissed off at the most ridiculous things 😂 it's just a habit when you strike an absolutely shite shot

[@Honeygooyumy69]

😂😂

[@brumfiba]

Your swing is silky

[@epgolfstudios]

Thanks Brumfiba! In all fairness in the test I think I was swinging pretty slowly for me so it probably did look quite silky. My normal 7i speed is more around 92 - 96 so that swing probably wouldn't look as silky 😂😂